How To Destroy Everything - Episode 10: How to Destroy a Childhood

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren explore the second half of Danny's childhood, which included awkward trips to the ice cream shop and a burgeoning desire to perform as a way of covering up his shame. Additionally, they'll investigate Sandy's side of post-divorce life as they finally solve the mystery of how she was able to afford a decade's worth of lawsuits without going bankrupt. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight's program was filmed in front of a live studio audience. Kids, your father's here. Hello. Well, hello there, ex-husband. Hello, Sandy. Say, who wants pie? Did someone say pie? That's right, you little rugrats.

Okay, boys, hold on to your britches. Run to the kitchen and grab some plates. No need. I brought those, too. Well, well, I'd almost think you were trying to win me back. So you're saying there's a chance? Oh, come on, Richard. Why ruin a perfectly good divorce with another marriage? Of course, you're right.

After all, this is what's best for the kids. And that's all I care about. A divorce settlement is supposed to be final, marking the end of the acrimony between the two parties. A legal decree granting closure and a chance to move on. I mean it's right there in the word, settlement, that there's an expectation for things to, you know, settle. But when Richard and I received the judge's final determination granting me custody, that gavel pound would only serve as a starting gun for a world.

Hang on, hang on. Emily, what are you doing? So what do you mean? I'm just doing the intro with you, and playing your mom. I thought we were going to get my actual mom to do this. Oh, OK. That's my bad. Yeah, I mean, look, the idea was that we want to tell parallel stories in this episode about what

my mom and I were each going through post-divorce during the second half of my childhood in the 90s. I am your 90s mom though. Aren't I? In the podcast, right? No, no, yeah, yeah. You are. Can I ask though, where's my real mom?

I'm right here, Dani. Oh, hey, mom. I thought you were doing great, Emily. Thank you so much, Mrs. Jacobs. It's an honor. Oh, please call me Sandy. Okay. Can we get back to the intro now?

Darren, Jesus, where did you come from? Haven't we been through this before, Danny? I lurk. Okay, this thing has gone completely off the rails. Much like your parents' divorce. Look, your life was not a sitcom, Danny. This episode covers an incredibly messy time, one that I think warrants a messy introduction.

Oh, touche, I can see that. Great, so let's get on with it. Sandys? Ahem. Okay. During this time, Richard sued me so often it felt like it sucked all my energy. He broke into my house and listened in on my phone conversations. He really tried to follow through on his promise to make me go broke. And honestly, there were times when I didn't know how I would get through it. But at the time, Danny was thriving in school with friends.

Danny was the one thing I felt I didn't have to worry about. I knew it was hard on him, but he seemed fine. Yeah, well, I think one thing that has become clear in this podcast is that I was decidedly not fine. My name is Danny Jacobs. I'm Sandy Jacobs. And this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my dad. My ex-husband.

Destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is episode 10, How to Destroy a Childhood. Sandy's dismissed. Bye, boys. And I'm Darren Grotsky, Danny's best friend, joining him on this increasingly absurdist ride. Yeah, I feel like we're at the edge of Charlie Kaufman territory.

Definitely. We should only be so lucky. Right. So, Darren, look, we've done it. We made it to the 90s. Ah, yes, we have. Heady times, the 90s. The Berlin Wall was down, the economy was up, cell phones and the internet existed, but haven't yet taken over our lives.

It was a fantastic time to come of age. Unless your father was Richard Jacobs. Oh, that's a good point. That would be an exception. Yeah, so in the aftermath of the divorce, my dad seemingly had a new mission, make my mom's life a living hell. And this had a profound effect on the both of you. On the one hand, you were finally old enough

to actually face the tornado that was Richard Jacobs. Yeah, and my mom. Well, this may not come as a shock, but my dad turned the entirety of his wrath and legal prowess against her. So let's start by getting into the you part. And for that, we thought we'd sit down and chat with a couple of our oldest friends. Okay, so my name is Josh Katz. I am an attorney who lives in Austin, Texas. I'm a dad and I Have known Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky, I guess probably since birth. We're on a bowling team together We sure were for like a decade the four live Jews was We're also the gutter skippers, I believe Someone else someone else took the name gutter skippers.

So we call ourselves the real gutter skippers. Take that, fake gutter skippers. We got them. We sure did. We won that round. Well, I'm Josh Friedman. I am another Midwestern Jew that was living in Krivkor in a very French-named area. Pronounced very Midwestern, though. Yeah in Krivkor in a very French named area.

Pronounced very Midwestern though. Yeah, Krivkor. Krivkor. And I know Danny initially from Hebrew school. That's right. It could not be more Jewish. It was the beginning of our friendship, yeah. Yeah, share a myth, that's right. And we were a bit of ne'er-do-wells, I would say.

We sure were, yeah. We're drawn together over our ne'er-do-wellness. Now we asked the two Josh's to talk a bit about what you were like as a kid, in particular the kinds of antics you would get up to. I remember one time we were in a grocery store and you approached a total stranger and you pretended that you were a lost child.

Like, no parents are here, I'm lost. in a grocery store and like you approach a total stranger and you pretended that you were a lost child like No parents are here I'm lost please help and I think like the person was alarmed By what you're doing, but eventually told us to go away and leave her alone. I believe You weren't quite good enough to fully sell it The police would have been involved. Yes. And that's where you flooded the bathroom at a hotel. Wait, I did? Oh, I have a vague memory of this.

Wait, tell me this. What did I do? I was very mad at that time, because you were sticking things down the faucet and trying to flood the place. Oh my god. So he successfully flooded the bathroom. He took a real shot at it. Oh man, I am sorry, dude.

I am sorry. It's funny, I remember doing that at, like, synagogue. But I don't remember. But now that you say it, I have a vague memory. I mean, it tracks. Yeah, it tracks. This is when you were flooding things that really, really. The flooding era.

Which I didn't know was such a running gag in your life was flooding things. If you could find an available restroom that was, you know, not going to be occupied for a little while, I think you would at that age wanted to flood it. Do you guys remember? I do remember I would do this bit at the bowling alley where I would pretend that I was a robot and I would just keep on walking and I would bump into people or things that go all the way down. Yes, if you bumped into anything it would turn you.

And you never broke character. People got mad. I don't even know what the shtick was that you were doing. I remember the bit was that I was like kind of walking right like very close to her right behind her. Like mimicking her gait. her gate So we went to six flags the three of us Yeah, and Danny does this where he follows close behind for a while and To Josh and my and and no one more than Danny's shop at some point She turns around and full palm open palm slaps Danny good for good for us We love to play characters. We were actors.

We were, you know, jokers. We liked to fuck with people and get a rise out of them. For me though, the most memorable was not the slap, it was the movie theater where you said you had a disease that caused him to make this most obscene annoying noise where he People would turn around and they go excuse me. Can you stop doing that and Danny would go? I'm really sorry I'm really sorry. I'll try to control it during the movie. I just I have a I have a you know an impediment I have a condition. Oh my god. I forgot about that. I mean, here's the thing, guys.

We're making me, first of all, it's fine. We're making me out to be like a real menace. But like, but it's interesting. It was with such a sense of humor, though. You were a very whimsical child, I would say. Is that a euphemism? No, I would say, like say it totally makes sense in hindsight. You were doing improv in life.

Oh, so sure. Yes. That's what we talked about, Danny, how you were always on. You were always on. There was always a performance for us. You were always on. You had no fear at all about approaching a stranger in the grocery store and just doing a bit.

Oh my god. You were like a show. We were like, what's the show gonna be today? What occurs to me now in thinking, in hearing what you guys are saying and thinking about these things is like, I think two things were actually going on. Number one, my dad's behavior in the world

taught me a lesson, and one of those lessons was that there are no real rules to the way the world works and I think I was interested psychologically and subconsciously in pushing that then and just in a less harmful way, in a way that was more prank oriented or fun most of the time. I think I was also kind of recreating in a way that I could control situations, like the feelings of shame and guilt

that I would feel with my dad. But this is for me, turning it into something both positive with sort of like laughter and fun with my friends. But also just like, I'm in charge now of this creation of awkwardness or tension and not somebody else lording that over me. This episode is brought to you by One Skin.

Darren, I gotta tell you, you're kind of glowing these days. Anybody ever say that to you recently? I mean, nobody's said it in quite those terms. I appreciate it. I'd love to take full credit for it myself, but I gotta be honest with you. I have a little bit of a secret. It's the new year. And a part of my new year's resolution this year,

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Get 15% off with code HTDE at oneskin.co. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code HTDE. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with Oneskin. Your future self will thank you. I have to say, I think your self-assessment was spot on. Well, I mean, obviously I didn't realize it at the time. One thing I was thinking about when Josh talked about, you know, you pretending to be a lost

child. This is maybe too much like armchair analysis here, but like, do you think there was any kind of wish fulfillment thing going on? Go on. Well, like, did some part of you maybe want to be lost? Oh, oh, wow. That is interesting. I mean, yeah, that might have been true deep down. Like maybe it was an unconscious fantasy of mine

to wander off and get picked up by some other family. You were a lost child that way. Yeah, yeah, no, I was. But obviously, at the time and the moment, it felt like frivolity, at least for us. Yeah. I mean, look, I do want to make it clear that my behavior wasn't extreme or dangerous. I wasn't causing real trouble.

I don't think anyone would call me a troublemaker. Well, I mean, you were. Well! In a harmless kind of way. Okay. The word that I would use is mischief. You weren't shoplifting. You weren't doing anything, like you said, dangerous.

You were just playing with the boundaries of what was considered acceptable behavior. A raptor testing the fences, if you will. Clever girl. Now we also talked with Josh and Josh about their memories of your dad. The Josh eyes. Danny? Please. About their memories of your dad and they had quite a few stories. Yeah, many of which I didn't remember because well these may have been seminal moments in their childhoods.

For me it was, you know, a Tuesday. I think the time your dad took you and Josh Katz to Baskin Robbins would qualify as one of those. Okay, boys. All right. Make up your minds. Uh, uh... Yeah, I'm at it. Go ahead. I know, I know, I know. Thanks, Mr. Jacobs. Okay, how can I help you, boys?

Uh, okay. Yes, I will have the mint chocolate chip on a sugar cone, please Rocky road on a sugar cone too Okay, so that's gonna be 545 excellent I went for like a full year just Joshua yeah, your half is $2.72. My what? Well, I assume your parents gave you money for ice cream. No.

Dad. No? What are you doing? They didn't give you any money? Well, you don't have an allowance or anything? I think I have a nickel I found on the blacktop. Well, that won't do. Hold on. Young lady, can you take the two ice creams and smush them together?

Wait, what's he doing? What's going on? Smush them together? Yeah, yeah, just smush them together. Together, right there. Okay. Like this? Yep, exactly like that. Great. Now you can charge me for one cone with two scoops. I'll throw in a nickel for the extra cone. Okay?

Josh, your nickel, please. Wait, seriously? Yeah. So, um, sorry. I'm not allowed to do that, sir. You're not allowed to do that? No, I'm... Where does it say that?

Um, it doesn't. It's just, I think that, like like I could get into trouble if I- Don't be ridiculous. You know what? Your manager, Bill, told me last time it was fine. Do you mean Carrie? Yes, Carrie. I knew it was one of the early letters of the alphabet. Carrie said it was fine. Um, I'm really sorry. I just- I- I can't. Okay, look. You've already scooped the ice cream, so unless you want it to go to waste... Oh, no. ...we'll take it.

I mean, company policy is that, like, all employees can have as much ice cream as they want, so it's not gonna go to waste. And those two flavors go well together. Okay, I will certainly be speaking with Carrie about your customer service deficiencies. What is your name? Mimi. Yeah, well well you have just lost a sale, Mimi. Come on boys. Wait what? Yeah. Are we not getting ice cream? No. Dad. We would have if your parents had followed proper decorum. Let's go. Sorry. Danny. Yeah? Your dad's the devil. I know. I feel like I have to say that your dad during this time was ostensibly trying to woo you away from your mom and he was terrible at that. Yeah, oh yeah. He was, he was who he was, man.

Oh man, through and through for sure. Now, okay, Josh Friedman also told us a crazy story about a time that he- The Fuddruckers? Yes, exactly. Oh God, yes. So he took you and Josh, we're in the backseat of the car.

We were hanging out. And he takes you to a Fuddruckers burger joint. Yes. And he goes inside. Yeah. And we then are sitting in the back seat. We're assuming he's going to get some food for us. As adults typically do for children.

45 minutes go by. Yeah. And he comes back out and he has nothing in his hands. He's got no food for us. Yeah. So what happened is, and this just blows my mind, your dad sat alone in flood rockers and ate an entire meal while these two boys, teenage boys or whatever, in the back seat and he brings you nothing

and then he just drives off. But what really struck me was how even with stories like that, Josh had good things to say about my dad. I guess I look back and I go, I genuinely liked Richard. You know, regardless of anything, I found him interesting and intelligent. I didn't, I mean, I obviously, I wanted a hamburger, you know, from Fuddruckers. Who was really that was a really upsetting lesson to learn that

adults aren't always going to do what you expect of them. You know, and that they're not going to that not all all parents are the same. Right. And that was, I guess, slightly eye-opening to me as a privileged 13-year-old that was used to getting hamburgers from adults. It's all to say, I always had an affinity for you. And as you said, Richard viewed you as an extension of himself.

And I kind of liked Richard's strangeness. I didn't understand. It was a puzzle, you know, to kind of, why was he living like this? How did he sleep in that bed that was covered with newspapers except for this carved out spot for his body to fit into? You know, it was like,

this is a different example of what an adult can be, I guess. As I got older, I went to a boarding school and high school while you guys were interlocking in Michigan. And I would always call Danny when I would come back into town, obviously. And with Richard, the phone stuff was always funny. You actually brought it up. Because you'd call, and no one would pick up,

you'd get the answering machine. And then 20 seconds later, he would call back, Richard would call you back and go, hello. Just like he was a detective undercover spy or something. Hello, hello, you just called this number. And what's so odd about it too, again, is he knew it was me. I mean, he had caller ID and I'm a 16 year old, 15 year old friend of his son, you know, and he knew, you know,

but he wanted to play that game, I guess, where he would, hello, hello, you know, you just called me. Yeah, it's Josh. I'm calling for Danny. As you know, as you're well aware, sir. Yeah. As you, as you, as you, as it says on the caller ID that you're looking at. And, but he, but we would always talk, you know, and it's funny, you call him a narcissist, which I know he was, but at the same time, he was such a strange narcissist

because he was inquisitive about you. I don't remember, and I had lengthy conversations with him in that he wanted to know what school was like, and what I was studying, and what I thought about this or that. And he spoke very little about his own point of view or perspective on those things. Yeah, so that's the thing. I actually had a lot of those same kinds of conversations

with your dad. He could be genuinely curious about me in a way that a lot of friends' parents simply weren't. Was he though? What do you mean? I mean, no offense, but I don't think he was actually curious about your guys' lives because he wanted to better understand like our teenage predilection for Zee Cavaricci pants. Like, what he wanted was information on me. Oh, yes, right, of course. Like, he was always in search of leverage.

And I feel like by now I should be more, you know, adept at seeing through your dad's shenanigans. Dude, I sometimes still fall for them and it's goddamn infuriating. Yes, yes, yes it is. OK, hang on, I want to go back for a second to the aftermath of the divorce because I have kind of a logistical question just in terms of who were you staying with exactly and when? OK, right.

Well, here's what happened. My mom won custody, right? So we were with her. And then eventually, my brother wound up leaving and going to live with my grandparents. Okay, so you were basically alone and staying with just your mom all the time. Well, not exactly all the time, because, okay, my mom has no memories of this, but I distinctly remember that I started running away from her house and going to my dad's.

I did it at least a few times. Whoa, I remember you telling me about this. Wait, so running away, was that your idea, or was to my dad's. I did it at least a few times. Whoa, wait, I remember you telling me about this. Wait, so running away, was that your idea or was it your dad's? Well, I definitely made the decision to do it, but like I can't help it think looking back now that it was probably an idea that my dad incepted into me, you know?

Well, you know, it's not fair that I'm with my mom all the time. I should be with my dad some of the times, you know, that kind of thing. Yep, yep. And then when you say running away, like, what is that? How did you do that exactly? Right, so what I would do is, and my memory of this

is it's usually at night. So my mom was probably in the kitchen making dinner. And so she was predisposed. And I would very slowly get one item at a time that I thought I would need, my violin, my backpack, whatever, and I would creep down the stairs and put it outside the front door, which is not near the kitchen.

And then I would do it in shifts, right? So until I had everything out there. And then I would just wait. I would leave it out there. I wouldn't leave right then. I would wait till an opportune moment when my mom was distracted. It could be later that night, whatever.

And I would just walk out the front door, grab my stuff, and then I would bolt down the street. Oh my God. I would just run, and I would run to the community pool where there was a phone. This is so elaborate. My dad would have instructed me to call this particular taxi company,

and I would call, and then they would come and pick me up and take me to my dad's. Dude. Yeah. I mean, that's madness. It was terrifying. Also, it says something about your dad that he helped orchestrate this, clearly,

but he couldn't be bothered to pick you up. Oh, well, I think that was strategic, actually. Like, it gave him plausible deniability, right? If he had no real direct involvement in it, he could say, oh, my son just showed up at my front door. What was I going to do? Smart. Not let him in, you know?

He's so smart. Just to take a step back, though, yeah, you said, it's terrifying. I mean, yeah. Also, you know, as a dad now, I'm imagining how harrowing it would be to call out for our kid. And they're suddenly gone. Yeah, like what?

And then for that to happen repeatedly. My mom even caught me a couple of times before I could get out of the house. She'd find my stuff outside the front door and bring it in. And my memory of it, she doesn't even say anything to me. She just is like, okay, and she brings it all in the house. I mean, it's no wonder that my mom has no memory. It was just too traumatic for her.

Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, that's to say nothing of how terrifying it must. It was just too traumatic for her. Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, that's to say nothing of how terrifying it must have been for you as, like, what were you, like 10? Yeah, yeah, it was. It was completely frightening. The all new FanDuel sportsbook in Casino is bringing you more action than ever.

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Visit connexontario.ca. Get groceries delivered across the GTA from real Canadian Superstore with PC Express. Shop online for super prices and super savings. Try it today and get up to $75 in PC optimum points. Visit superstore.ca to get started. God, I know this is kind of obvious, but I'm struck right now by the thought that like during this time, I had these two loving parents at home, while you were literally running away from one parent,

and the parent that you were running to was Mr. Richard Jacobs. Oh, Darren, please, talk more about your loving, beautiful, perfect childhood. Sorry to juxtapose that, but it's very striking, is what I'm saying. No, I mean, look, I had my grandparents, thank God. But also, you know, speaking of your parents, to be honest, like those two loving parents that you talked about were pretty important to me, too. I am Gloria Grotsky. I'm the mother of Darren Grotsky.

I've known Danny since he was about seven. Welcome to the podcast, Mom. Very excited to be here. And every Friday after school, they went bowling. And I met Sandy there and it was Brunswick. And we used to sit and talk while these guys bowled with two other boys, I believe, Josh. Darren, our bowling experience is getting a much more play than I'd ever expected it would. It's coming up a lot.

People are going to think it was our whole lives. It was not your whole lives. Yes, it's a little embarrassing. It's a little embarrassing, but it's fine. What are your first memories of Danny as a little kid? He was a good kid. He was very funny. He laughed a lot. And I did not know what all was

going inside his brain. Because that had to be difficult living with that man. And I don't know if you remember, we took you at least once on a trip with us to Florida, maybe more. Oh, well, you know, we went to Florida. We also, I also went to Indianapolis with you guys for the Rams game. Oh, for football, for the football. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We went on several trips with you guys. We wanted to show you what normal in quotes could be.

Was that? Did you and dad actually talk about that? Like that you, that that was a thing that you were trying to do? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And I remember it was high school. Sandy, your mother came up to me and she said, I want to thank you so much for your family showing Danny what a normal life could be. Remember that? Wow. Wow. Danny, I guess the only thing I can say here is you're welcome.

Danny, I guess the only thing I can say here is you're welcome. That's really interesting. So that means that you had a real sense, you must have had a real sense of that my dad was not just weird, but that he was disturbed, right? Yes, Very. I don't know why, but it's actually very strange to me to think about how my parents were apparently having all these conversations about you and your dad. Like, I had no idea. I mean, it makes sense, right? What would they have said to you?

Right, right. Honey, your friend's dad is really disturbed. Go have fun at the sleepover. Right, exactly. Now, our moms over the years, they got to be very, very close. And I know that your mom would talk to mine about everything that your dad was doing. Which is a pretty good segue for us to talk about my mom, because while I was dealing with all this drama, my mom was in her own post-divorce hellscape. Richard was always trying to find out what I was doing and following me around and would just try to give any money he could out of me. He lied and would said that I made more money than he did.

And he wanted me to pay child support to him. He thought that I was gonna get the house and so he punched holes in the wall. I think he pulled out some of the wires. When I went to my own house, somehow he broke into it. He came in, but I didn't know. He somehow got a key and he put something under my car where he knew where I was. He was listening to me, you know, on the phone. I'm starting to get paranoid, you know. He set up a fake doctor

and we could never get a hold of the doctor and he falsified documents. Like he did so many bizarre things. I couldn't know what I was really supposed to believe, because he would deny everything. At one time I was thinking about adopting another baby. Do you remember Nathaniel? I had forgotten it and then once you said it I was like, oh I have a vague memory of this all of a sudden. All of a sudden he knew about it.

He says nobody's gonna let you have a baby. Nobody's gonna want you as a mother. There was a whole month that you stayed with Richard. And I was just so upset that I thought that I was never gonna see you again. Because he threatened me to sue me until I was broke. He was really, really mad. He was really mad at me, you know,

for going against him and divorcing him. And he just, I know he, in his mind, he wasn't thinking he'll get me back this way. I guess he just got so mad that he wanted revenge. He just kept trying to take and trying to take and he just wouldn't stop. I just knew he wouldn't stop. Because he never stops at anything. When he gets something in his mind, he carries it out to the utmost.

He started doing it all through the divorce. So I knew he wouldn't give up afterwards. I thought this is never going to end. It just never will end. Man, how in the hell did my mom get through it all? Right? I mean, emotionally, psychologically, but also just practically. I mean, literally, how she navigate the lawsuit after lawsuit?

Yeah, like how did my dad not slowly bleed her dry as he promised he would do? Well the answer it seems at least in part is that she had some help. My name is Mark Krueger and I was a lawyer in St. Louis. I don't remember exactly how I first came into contact with Richard. At some point Sandy had come to me after the divorce. I don't remember what the original problem was. You know, this, the whole thing went on for about 10 years and you know, it didn't cost him anything because he was a lawyer and he could represent himself. I felt sorry for her because she had he was a lawyer and he could represent himself.

I felt sorry for her because she had to hire a lawyer all the time. And these incidents involved all kinds of issues with the custody of the kids, and the visitation, and money issues, and just all kinds of things. So from the time she first came in, I just I felt sorry for her and I just represented her for for about a 10-year period. Over the course of like a 40-year career in family law and seeing a lot of divorce cases and custody battles and whatnot, just can you talk about how unusual this Richard and Sandy situation was in your experience?

You know, as you were talking I did remember the first time she came in. But in answer to your question, it was the most unusual situation I had seen in 40 years. But she came to me after the divorce. I remember now that she came in and she said that she had been awarded the house in the divorce, but Richard refused to leave it. And I said, what do you mean he refuses to leave it? She said, well, he won't move out. And I mean, that was kind of odd to me because, you know, there's a court order, she got the house, and it had been a couple of years

and nobody had forced them out of the house. So I had sent over a messenger with a letter saying that five o'clock the next day, we were moving all these things out on the street and we were changing the locks on the doors. And there was a flurry of activity from the house where he tried to get everything out of there by the next day. And that's how it all started.

That was my first contact with Richard. But it answered your immediate question. You know, usually a divorce case, there might be some problems that arise through the years, bringing the kids back late, not paying child support, that sort of thing. But this was like a continuous case. You could never close this file because, as I said, Richard was a lawyer himself, and a very good lawyer actually, and he was totally focused on, I think, what I thought at the time was just really totally making Sandy's life miserable,

and so he would file things one after the other, and it just continued year after year after year. There was never a stop to it. So it was really unusual in that sense that it just never died down. And usually people get on with their lives and do something else and get other interests and that sort of thing.

And that didn't happen in this case. It was like his purpose in life was really to deal with Sandy, make her life miserable. It just went on and on and on. She wasn't the only person Richard was suing. He was suing lots of people, because even though he was disbarred, he could represent himself.

And so he would sue people and he'd get money judgments against them. I remember one time trying to garnish a judgment that he had gotten against somebody, thinking that we could grab that money before, you know, make them pay it to us rather than to them. But they were afraid of him. They didn't want to do it because they were afraid of what he would do, you know. Because a normal person who's not a lawyer, you have to hire a lawyer if you get sued.

And so, you know, that if they did that to him, then he would sue him for something else. They'd have to hire a lawyer. It would cost him even more money. All things aside, I mean, he was a pretty good lawyer. I have to say, he was smart. Richard was smart. When my mom divorced my dad, she was contacted by a woman

who had organized a support group comprised of people who had been sued by my dad. Do you know anything about that? Had you heard that before? No, I haven't heard that before, no. A support group of people who had been sued by your dad? Yes, it was just people who had been sued by my dad. Apparently they met regularly, they had a newsletter,

like it was a whole thing. No, is that true? Yeah Yes, we're really trying to find people who were a part of it because it's wild. I've never heard of that before Yeah, I mean, you know what if that's the case if that's true That gives you an idea of the scale that we're talking about here. Yes Yeah, man. I really want to find someone who is in that support group. Same dude, same. Anyway, here's where we find ourselves.

My dad unburdened. Yeah, and while he can't make money as a practicing attorney, he still uses the law to make money by representing himself and suing folks. And then using that income to focus all of his narcissistic revenge squarely at my mom. Do you know how, like roughly, if you were to estimate how many suits my dad brought against my mom in the kind of 10 years that you were working with her? This is all he had to do in his life. See, he wasn't doing anything else. He would just sit at home and think of ways to torment her.

And you're right that my grandparents were giving him money so he didn't have a job that he would have to go to spend time with. He had nothing to spend his time on but these machinations. Right, that's exactly right. He would live in that house by himself and he would think of these things, you know? And then he would file his suit and so on and so forth. You know, I didn't know your grandparents well at all, but just from meeting with your grandfather, I guess he was a businessman.

So, you know, we'd sit in the office and he would talk like a businessman, you know? I mean, he was smart. He was successful, but but I remember thinking that there was nothing in Richards name And I think the grandparents had their own assets tied up that way too in trusts and so on so that nobody could ever touch them that's probably where Richard got the idea from and So you could never you could never sue him to get anything from him because he was judgment-proof And so how did he live? Well, he could only live if his parents were supporting him, you know

I remember at different times thinking he was just evil. He was cruel, but You know, I mean that's the way it manifested itself You know, I mean, that's the way it manifested itself. I'm sure it was, I don't know what it was, but it was some kind of a mental illness. And where it came from, I don't know. You know, I'm a little loathe to just call my dad evil and call it a day, though I am aware that I might have used that very word in this podcast.

But there's something unsatisfying about that explanation, you know? Yes, I totally get it. It feels over simplistic and almost like it excuses his behavior, really. Yes, exactly. That's it. The thing is, Mark did have a more nuanced explanation. It was almost like he wanted to be in complete control of her life and anything that mattered

to her and that it weakened him if he wasn't in control. And so that if she had a good relationship with the kids, for example, that took something away from him. He wasn't in control of that. If something was good in her life, that's what it seemed like to me that that it all had to do with control. You know, I'm probably making it out to be more than it was,

but I kind of, during those years, I felt that I was the only person that was standing in his way, you know? And I remember thinking at different times, whether I needed to be worried about something violent happening, but there was really no evidence that he was ever violent or planned to be violent toward me or anything. I just didn't know, you know. But I think it was like if she had a good relationship

with the kids, if she was successful, if things went well for her, that that took something away from him. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Totally. My mom had done something that no one, up until that point in my dad's life, had been able to do, defy him completely. And that was untenable to him. Yeah. For that sin, he would go to any length to beat her. You know, there's a rule in law about you

have to use original documents. Under certain exceptions, you can use a copy. But they really use original documents. Under certain exceptions, you can use a copy, but they really want original documents. And I remember one time Richard attached this court order, copy of a court order, and Sandy looked at it and she said, I don't think this is right, you know, he's an expert at using a copy machine. I mean, there were boxes and boxes of Jacobs versus Jacobs in the file room at

the courthouse. You know most people had one file that was their divorce case. This was boxes of stuff. And in there we found the original of the court order. And Richard he had, I forgot, I forgot exactly what it said, but he had changed the whole meaning of the court order. You know, like deleting the word not or something like that. He had covered it up so good with the copies and stuff, you really couldn't tell until you saw the original next to it. The judge went crazy when he saw that. And he said, you know, I'm going to throw you in jail for this.

And Richard said, I didn't do it. He said, did know, I'm going to throw you in jail for this. And Richard said, I didn't do it. He said, did it. Whoa. He blamed my brother. And the judge says, well, I want in this court tomorrow. And Richard said, I can't get him. I don't have any control over him. He's out of the state.

And I remember sitting there thinking to myself, I mean, just a kid at the time, you know, maybe a teenager. And I'm thinking, you blame this on your kid. You know, I couldn't believe it, you know? Yeah. And so nothing ever happened with it except that the judge ignored what Richard had done and decided the case against him,

whatever the issue was on that particular time. But I remember just being shocked that he would push it off on a child, as the bad guy. Yeah. Come on, I mean. The thing about it is that even in that situation, he managed to wiggle out of trouble.

He found an escape hatch, albeit throwing his kid under the bus. Right, but there's something about that move that felt a little desperate, didn't it? Oh, yes. Absolutely. But that was the exception. Because most of the time, as Mark told us, he was one step ahead. And I would spend hours sometimes trying to think of what he was up to, because you could never just take it at face value. And I'd be out walking the dog after dinner and all of a sudden it would hit me, oh, I know what he's doing.

Oh my God. But you'd have to do that with everything with him because he was very, very clever. He was creative. If he would have spent half as much energy practicing law like you were supposed to, I think he would have been very successful. But there was something that wouldn't allow him to do that. He just had to focus on these things that he focused on and just made trouble for himself and for everybody else as a result.

What's in this McDonald's bag? The McValue Meal. For $5.79 plus tax, you can get your choice of junior chicken, McDouble, or chicken snack Don't. welcome in your own country. That's the question at the heart of our new audio series which tells the true story of an Italian Jewish family split apart by Mussolini's racial laws. Can love survive fascism? When the time comes, do you stay or flee? I love this story and I think you will too. Pack One Bag features Stanley Tucci. Listen to Pack One Bag wherever you get your podcasts. You know, Sandy didn't have any money. You know, I'm sure she paid me in the beginning

because I probably wouldn't have done it for free in the beginning. But after I saw what was happening and I felt sorry for her, you know, I would just, I would represent her for free. And, you know, it was a burden, you know, having to deal with all of his stuff, you know, just year after year after year over these piddly stupid lawsuits that he would file, you know, and I don't know, I felt real sorry for him because he had had some success in turning

the kids against her, you know, because he worked on it constantly, all the time, telling him this and telling him that, and she wasn't very good at defending herself. And I just felt really sorry for her, and it was a terrible burden. Okay, I love the idea that this lawyer had to go on like these long contemplative walks, just to try to figure out what in the hell your dad was really up to.

For sure, for sure. But I think we can agree that the bigger headline there is that he stopped charging my mom for his legal services. Oh my God, yes. That was such a revelation for me, because my mom didn't realize that he was doing that. So this answered a mystery we've been trying to figure out about how my mom survived financially through all this.

But also because I found it kind of poetic. Here on one side of the equation you have my dad who's sacrificing everything to cause all this destruction. And then on the other side you have this guy, Mark Krueger, who's just quietly being a goddamn hero. It's kind of beautiful. Well, I want to say something to you, Mark, which is that, you know, I was a kid during all this and really unaware of a lot of it. I mean, I was aware of a great deal of it, but not to the extent that I'm learning about from you. And I just want to tell you thank you for kind of being, playing this role, for helping my mom when you didn't need to, for keeping my brother and I at the forefront of your thoughts.

Your efforts have helped me, whether you are aware of it or not, become somebody who I hope is a contributing member of society. So I just want to say thanks. Well, I'll tell you, Danny, the I was really pleased to hear that that you were successful. Your brother was successful, because frankly, I never thought you would be. I thought this was way too much baggage for kids to carry around with them through their lives. I always felt no good could ever come of that. So I was, frankly, I was surprised to hear that you both had turned out as well as you did.

And I think you'd probably deserve a lot of credit overcoming all of that because, let's face it, 99.9% of kids don't have to overcome all the baggage that you guys had overcome, you know? Yeah, well, I really believe that I don't know that I would have if it wasn't for people like you. Well, that's very generous of you to say that, but I became a lawyer because I wanted to help people,

you know, and I never was very good at billing people. I never liked that part of practicing law. I've always, I have to say, I just have to say, I've always wondered how Sandy did it, how she navigated this. And I feel like I learned today that you were a big part of that. Like, because I, you know, Sandy, I mean, I know Sandy, you were a big part of that. Because you know Sandy. I mean, I know Sandy. The idea of her withstanding lawsuit after lawsuit has always been kind of boggling to me.

But I see now that you were there helping her for 10 years. She doesn't come across as a real strong person. And she kind of comes across as a victim in many ways. And I guess that's why people would maybe want to step up and try to help her. But you realize how strong you have to be to survive all this on a continuous basis. So she's a lot stronger than I ever thought she was. And I'm just, I was so happy to hear about

when she told me that she had a relationship with Danny and **** after all those years. Because I never thought that would happen, to be honest with you. And the fact that she persevered and it all turned out well and the kids turned out well, I mean, it's really an amazing story. Really is. Now, your dad was nothing if not persistent. And his legal assault went on for so long, even Mark, at some point, had to step aside.

Yeah, and my mom went off to work as a paralegal for a man named Lee Patton. Yeah, we first met Mr. Patton briefly back in episode six. But now he took on Mark's role representing your mom as the lawsuits continued to pile up. Yeah, and he told us some pretty wild stories about what it was like to go toe to toe with my dad. On one occasion, and I kind of embarrassed to tell this story because it's kind of juvenile

what I did, but we had a case in front of Judge Yates. It was a motion to modify where your mom was being harassed again. And Richard, of course, was representing himself because he saved so much money. We had a conference in with Judge Yates and your dad had a big accordion folder with files in it. I remember that folder. Yeah, he bet.

And so we talked with the judge and the judge said, do this, this and this or whatever. Your dad and I went out into the courtroom and he had his folder on the table with the closed end facing me. And he kept asking me these bizarre questions. Esli Patton Esquire. Good morning, Richard.

Good morning. Good morning. I meant to ask you, did you happen to speak with Judge Yates this morning? What? Richard, I don't have time for this. I'm trying to get to it. I know, I was just wondering if you spoke with the judge prior to our conference. No, Richard, I didn't. But why would you be asking me such a question? Well, did Sandy tell you about the income she's hiding?

Right? What are you talking about? I'm talking about the income she's hiding from the trial. Did she tell you about the income that she's hiding? It's a yes or no question. Richard, this is very convenient, you bringing up questions like this right now. I'm sorry, could you say that a little louder? Can I say what a little louder, Can I say what a little louder?

That I'm not going to engage? What are you getting at? It's a yes or no question. What is happening? Who is this game you're playing, Richard? That's all I need from you. It's all you need from me? Yes.

A yes or no answer. Yes or no. That's my answer. What? Have a good day. I'll see you later, Richard. Richard, have a good day. I'll see you later, Richard. What? Richard, have a good day. One of my friends, Larry Gillespie,

was sitting at the end of the conference table and he's pointing at the accordion folder and he's mouthing tape recorder. Mm-hmm. Tape recorder. So I'm like, oh, and I lost it. I absolutely lost it. Richard, can I see that?

See what? Your folder. My folder? Yeah. What? You want to see my folder? Yes, I want to see your folder, Richard. You want to see my notes? You want to see the things I've been saying about you during the trial?

What is that? I just want to see your folder, Richard. Just give me your folder. No, no, no. You cannot see my folder. No. Well, it's a yes or no question. May I see your folder? No, and I'm saying no. You can't... Hey, hey, hey. Richard, give me the goddamn folder. Give that back to me! That is my fault! Help! Give this to me!

Help! Stop! Give me the goddamn folder! You're not making yourself good. I'm trying to get your folder. You're making a fool out of yourself. Give it back! Just give me a first! I dumped his file out. I grabbed the tape recorder. I took the tape out.

I shoved it in his face. And I used some very coarse language. Jesus me! You f***ing human f***ing piece of s***! How dare you, you f***ing f***ing c***! You've been tape recording me and I bet you tape recorded the judge. Yeah? And then, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of the movie Billy Jack.

I have not. No. Okay, this is a 1971 movie that I just adored. The guy was a martial artist. And one of my favorite lines in the entire movie was, You know what I think I'm gonna do then just for the hell of it I'm gonna take this right foot, and I'm gonna walk you on that side of your face, and you want to know something There's not a damn thing. You're gonna be able to do about it. I jumped towards Richard, and I thought he was gonna piss his pants

But I can tell you this he never ever crossed me again But I can tell you this, he never, ever crossed me again. Oh my goodness. It's kind of shocking to me that he didn't get hit more. But it is not shocking to me that, like most bullies, when he did, he turned into a coward. Totally. But you know, I actually think there's another aspect to that whole story that I want to highlight, which is that if you were to walk in on that scene, right, in the courtroom, you would think that Lee was the crazy person. Oh, yeah. Which that's a dynamic that I am intimately familiar with.

Like, growing up, my dad would do something, I would be really triggered, I'd get really rageful and lash out. And somebody looking at that situation would be like, man, that kid's really disrespectful. Like, what's wrong with that kid? There's a gaslighting aspect to it, for sure, for sure. OK, but now I also don't want to lose sight of how all of this was affecting your mom.

Well thankfully, I asked Lee that very question. Like, what did you notice about how this was all affecting my mom emotionally? Did you have a sense of that? Oh yeah. Yeah, well that's why I decided to represent her. Because it was just draining her. And Richard seemed to have unlimited energy to just keep plodding along. It was just not right.

The way he was taking advantage of his knowledge of the law and using it for evil purposes, so to speak. I mean, it was just wrong what he was doing. Well, I think she was depressed and it was almost like she was at wit's end. She didn't know. All she could see was a future of lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit and just bleeding her savings dry. Yeah, it was. and just bleeding her savings dry.

Yeah. It was, yeah, there's no doubt that it was depressing to her and she couldn't see an end. Right. I think that's, there was no light at the tunnel. I think that when you rob someone of their future in that kind of way, it's kind of a sinister way of stabbing them in the back. Right. Yeah.

It was not fun to watch. I mean, I never noticed it affecting her work quality, but I knew that it was eating at her inside. You know, I have to say, hearing him talk about my mom's state, emotional state like that, it just, it kind of feels like time travel. Like I have this visceral recollection of my mom's stress and sadness during that time. Like I remember her crying, I remember her worry. It was ever present. And Lee's right, it just kind of felt like it was never going to end.

Man. Well, and I mean, you were going through it too, of course. Yeah, yeah, I was. And I think that's why I made the decision finally to try to put a stop to the chaos. So after a while, you just took it upon yourself. I don't remember how it actually came about,

but you took it upon yourself to set up your own schedule. I mean, I can't believe that he did was. At a really young age, Danny said that he had his own schedule and he kept to it. I didn't go back to court or anything. I just kept to that schedule. It was every other week. Okay. So this is really incredible to me. You basically did the court's job here. I mean, you settled the custody situation, this alternating weekly thing with your mom and dad, and you did it when you were like a little kid.

Well, yeah, nobody else could figure it out. And it did calm things down to a certain extent. You know, even your dad, more or less, accepted this arrangement. I mean, I think he saw it as the only way he could continue seeing me. And then long term, he saw it as a way to kind of turn me against my mom. True. But it worked. And it's a remarkable choice. I mean I remember when you made this choice because even then it seemed awful. Like you chose this pneumatic lifestyle and you chose to head back into the lion's den. You had gotten out and yet you willingly went

back. I mean is there any part of you now that regrets that choice? No, not at all. Wow, that was a very quick response. Yeah, I mean, I don't. Why? Look, there's a few things that I think are important to remember.

Number one, I was dealing with an incredible amount of daily drama every single day. My life would be totally upended by what my dad was doing, right? You remember my mom's journal from our previous episode. And then also my brother had at that point moved into my grandparents' house. So I was dealing with all of this alone, right? I didn't have my big brother to look after me anymore at that point. And then also I was under the assumption, which I think was correct, that my dad was not going to stop. Like, he was the Terminator. And I was looking at a life

in perpetuity of this happening. Right. You were trying to stop that. Yes. And then the last thing is, you know, I loved my dad, despite everything. You know, he had destroyed a lot by that point, but not that, like not the love that I felt for him. So, you know, I was not nearly at the place of maturity I would get to decades later when I would officially end that relationship. I didn't have those emotional tools.

Like I was just this kid who desperately wanted a father, you know, and actually there's something else that I wanna say about all this. Like after having relived all this in this episode and hearing the way that you talk about my decision to split my time and the way my mom talks about it. Like I, I don't look at it as some remarkable decision. Okay. I look at it as like an indictment, like a collective failure among all of the

adults from my mom and my dad to my grandparents, to the lawyers and judges and advocates within the legal system, everybody, right? Because a 10-year-old should never have had to come close to making such a consequential decision. Like, we're forgetting that there's just a little kid in there, like it's a goddamn tragedy. I can't disagree with you. You're absolutely right. When I think back on all of it now, I don't see it as a badge of honor. I just see a little boy

who's thrust into a grown-up place way, way, way too soon. Do you think that that kind of a huge life decision shaped you and and and and how you act and make decisions in general? You know in your in your profession with your kids what's the impact of that? I don't know. I've never thought about that before. I mean, I think my wife would say that I'm like, well, this is interesting. Like, my wife makes fun of me because, like, I am huge about making sure everybody knows the plan in my home. Like, every day makes fun of me because, like, I am huge about making sure everybody knows the plan in my home. Like every day I'm like, all right guys, so tomorrow this is what's going to happen. We're going to wake up, we're going to do this, we're going to do this.

And I'm kind of relentless about it. Like, I just like, I get a lot of comfort out of looking at my schedule. Like I will open up my calendar on my Mac and I will just like look at it. It's all planned out. And I'll just see, all right, I'm gonna be here then and here then and here then. There's something that I think is really ingrained in me now about having a sort of like knowing the plan

and knowing the schedule. Just as when you were a kid, you're like, I'll be at my mom's this week and then I'll be at my dad's this week. And I told everyone how this is gonna go. Right, I think that that has really become a big part at my mom's this week and then I'll be at my dad's this week. And I told everyone how this is going to go. Right. I think that that has really become a big part of what keeps me calm in my day to day. I think this instilled in me that sense.

Yeah. I'm again thinking about the contrast between your childhood and mine. Mostly how I was allowed to have a childhood and you were not. And yet I also think about the fact that you came through that fire, man, and you got out. I did come through that fire, but there was another one waiting for me. Okay? Like, it did create a period of relative stability. But I was still changing and growing. And what that meant was that I was moving into a place closer to adulthood where I could stand up for myself against my dad and defy him in a way that only one person had before in his

life, my mom, and that created a whole new set of problems as I matured and then went to college. Well and that I think is a good place for us to stop this episode because that is exactly where we're going to pick up in our next episode. But you know what, Darren? Hold on, no, no. I really think that you should let me say the podcast. I am here at the end. Oh, do you? Listen, I'm just...

I understand that early on in the season, I was a bit of a dick because I wouldn't let you say it. I remember it quite well. But you know what? It's kind of been flipped now. And it's like you've kind of hijacked the whole thing. How to destroy everything. Mom! Mom, are you, come on. I was just about.

How to Destroy Everything. Well done Sandys, well done. I wish you all nothing but pain. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky. Executive produced by Michael Grant Terry. And edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhart, Robert Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry.

Starring in alphabetical order, Deb Baker Jr., John Evelling, David Goral, Danny Jacobs, Jonathan Kaplan, Emily Pendergast, Harry and Hartley Wexler, Jono Wilson. Jono Wilson. Oh, okay. Jono Wilson, if you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell, please reach out to us at

I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com. Additionally, if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything and of course you can find us on Instagram and Twitter as well. How to Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.