How To Destroy Everything - Episode 11: How to Destroy Australia

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren explore the newfound freedom Danny felt as a young adult out from under his father's thumb for the first time in his life. But then, Danny gets pulled back into his father's chaos when he agrees to go on a (mostly) paid vacation to Australia. Terrible doesn't do the trip justice. It was so traumatizing that it sends Danny into a mental health spiral as he finds himself abandoned in a foreign country. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and please don't forget to share, rate and review! If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. This episode is sponsored by brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/destroy and get on your way to being your best self. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Therefore, therefore you must need to play, you must need to play Piramos, Piramos, a proper copper coffee pot, a proper copper coffee pot. Hey Danny J, open at night buddy. Hey. Hey. Yeah, hey, can't believe it's here. Pretty cool. Sorry to bother you, but you know, there's this old dude wandering around backstage.

You don't know him, dude. He's taking pictures and stuff. Uh, weird. No, no, I've never seen that guy before. Yeah, I just don't want him to touch my lights. Anyway, I gotta get back out of there. Keep an eye on him for me, will ya? Alright, no problem. This is your 10 minute warning, buddy. Thank you, Ten. Unbelievable.

Dad? Danny! My boy! Keep your voice down. What are you doing here? What do you mean? I'm here to see your illustrious performances. Peter Quince at the Stanford... No, no, no.

I mean, what are you doing in California? Why are you even here? In California? I thought I'd surprise you. I'm here. I've come all the way out... No, no. I've told you I don't want surprises.

We've talked about this. You gotta tell me before you fly across the country. Well, I don't know how you could expect me to tell you when you didn't even let me know that you were in a play this quarter. Because if I didn't tell you, that's because I didn't want you to know, okay? You didn't want me to know that is just mean, okay?

I am your father. I want to support you. So I flew all the way out here to see you in this production. And what were you taking pictures about, huh? What were you taking pictures of? What are you talking about? I saw you taking pictures. OK, if you want to know, I was going to put together a photo collage for you to commemorate your performance.

But if you're going to be so ungrateful, forget it. No, forget it. Yeah, OK, great. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, forget it. And while you're at it, forget the whole trip. Go home.

Nobody wants you here. When I left St. Louis for college, it really was a fresh start. I was like a snake, ready to shed my dad and emerge anew, unshackled by the utter nonsense that had consumed my life up to that point. And so, at Stanford University, you best believe

I wasn't gonna mention my dad's predilection for cutting off coupon expiration dates. His constant lawsuits would have no bearing on my great works class. At school, I could pretend as if he didn't exist at all. I was finally free, free from the shadow of guilt and shame that had defined me. And an interesting thing happened when I found myself with that freedom.

For the first time, I gravitated towards performance, both acting and improvisation. And I think the reason I did was, in some way, the same reason I decided to do this podcast. To feel the emotions I had pushed aside to survive my childhood. On stage, I could explore guilt, feel shame, and tap into rage. And within the guardrails of stage right and stage left, it felt like the safest place in the universe. But of course, you can't stay on stage forever. At some point, I was gonna have to learn to function as an adult with Richard Jacobs as my father.

My name is Danny Jacobs, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is episode 11, How to Destroy Australia. Now, as I went to college, one of the freedoms I was most grateful for was to finally, finally get some goddamn distance between me and my co-host on this podcast, my best friend, Mr. Darren Grotsky. Wow, shots fired. Thank you, Danny. And let me tell you something, that feeling was 100% mutual, you jerk.

Why I ever decided to move to Los Angeles with you after college is a mystery I'm still trying to unravel. I think it's simple, Darren. I'm irresistible. Irresistible. Good Lord. Let's just move on from that incorrect sentiment. So in this episode, we are going to dig into the adult years of your relationship with

your dad. But first, we left off in episode 10 when you were still a kid. Yes. And the thing is, I think we can fast forward just a bit through my high school years, because once I got a car, the truth is I had a degree of freedom that had been totally unavailable to me before that. Ah, right. So for most of high school, if something was like going bad or weird at home, you could literally just grab your keys and go. Yeah, off into your house.

Right, which is probably why I also don't have a lot of memories of your dad during this time. I saw him way less. Though there were still times when I couldn't escape his control, like vacations, for example. Sure, sure, you're kind of trapped together. That makes sense. Yeah, and it's actually interesting that when it comes to those vacations during this period, my memory is super limited. Like recently, okay, we digitized a treasure trove

of videos and old films of my dad's. Yeah, some of which we're going to be putting up on our Patreon for folks to see. Yes, and one of those videos was this trip I took to Nova Scotia with my dad and my brother during the summer before senior year in high school. Oh yes, I remember when you went on that. You would have been like, what, 17?

That's exactly right. And let me tell you something that shocked me, Darren, as I watched this literally two-hour film that my dad had edited together. So I remembered going on the trip, but I had zero memories of the trip itself. What? Really? Yeah.

That's crazy. It was like I was watching somebody else's vacation. You're like 17 years old, you have no memories of it? None. That is bizarre. That must have been traumatizing. Yeah, well, the thing is, while watching the video, you would have had no idea.

Well, when your dad has final cut. Exactly. But what's interesting is that there are a few things that somehow squeaked through the sensors, as it were. Like this one story that I told to camera. Now, listeners, when you hear this clip, it should be noted that this is the first time you are going to hear

Richard Jacobs' actual voice. because it's quite funny. Signed film, yes. It could have been a signed film episode. And then I saw this Chinese restaurant. Very plush, expensive, elegant. They gave us appetizers which Dan of course started eating. Oh I did, yeah you did. And anyway, so we thought it was way too expensive. So we had to figure out where to get out of the restaurant. Graceful. Yeah, graceful.

Dan pulled away the roll. He said, do a shark. Well, Dan, yeah, graceful. Dan pulled the way to roll. He said, I do have shark. She said, no, no. I was expecting shark. You got to your toes, she said, shark. And then finally, she said, well, you might want to try another Chinese french fry.

I said, wow, I was expecting shark. I guess I'll leave then. And I'm, and I have, of course, laughing very hard. And then we all walked out. And he didn't quite get that story right. We really didn't eat any appetizers. We drank some water. But in any event, we found this life-filling restaurant.

It just opened a week ago. You can smell the paint from the varnish on the wood. And this restaurant is called China Moon. Man, that was fascinating. And you, by the way, the varnish on the wood. And this restaurant is called China Moon. Man, that was fascinating. And you, by the way, sound different now. I know, I know. I think I was clenched. My lips were doing something totally different.

That's the Danny that I knew, that I was friends with? Apparently so. Anyway. That's the Danny that I was? Ugh. Geez. Apparently, my dad did this. Why do you think he kept that in,

this footage that he had edited together? I mean, maybe he figured that anyone watching would like definitely believe him, you know? Yeah, I guess so. Delusional, but you know. I'm also still hung up on the fact that you have no memory of this trip at all. Nope.

Like even watching that, is anything coming back? Nothing, nothing, which tells me that it must have been much more traumatizing than I realized. Or maybe your capacity to block things out went way deeper and lasted a lot longer than we realized. Yeah, totally. I also think that, look, we said this before, but you were like a champion compartmentalizer back in those days. And I can attest to that because I saw you a lot. I mean, we hung out all the time and this trauma, it was not bubbling to the surface

in any visible way that I remember. Evidently, I took the Richard Jacobs compartment and just flushed it from my conscious memory. Yes. Now, despite that black box, I actually have a Richard Jacobs memory from senior year of high school. And I may be wrong about this, but I think it's actually a positive one.

Oh, please, tell. Didn't he get our high school administration to let you audition to be graduation speaker after you had like missed the deadline or something? Yes, that's exactly right. Actually, I was out of town visiting Stanford. Ah, okay. So there we have an example of him using his powers for good.

Totally, and I have to admit, I was grateful to him for that. You know, one thing I have to say is that as angry as my dad would make me, there would always be times when I would need him for something, and in those times, man, he could be useful. Useful? That's a strange way to describe a father, but yeah, I mean, look, calling on one's dad to help in a time of need is pretty standard good father-son stuff. Yeah, no, it's true. But it was always, always, always laced with the bad or the weird.

And over here, you'll see the famous Stamford Claw right in front of the bookstore. Now, as we head over to White Plaza. Yeah, White Plaza, it's a gathering spot for students at almost the geographical center of our sprawling campus. Let's head up this way to the Truster Student Union. Hang on, hang on, hang on, let me just interject here. To ask, did this really happen? Because while we're not journalists, we do strive for some degree of accuracy here,

and if we're gonna lean into actual farting, I just wanna make sure it's, you know, earned. If you're asking me, Darren, whether or not my dad farted through my entire Stanford campus tour, the answer is yes. Man, okay then, proceed. Dad, dad. What, what?

Stop it. Stop What? Stop it! Stop what? Stop farting! Oh, don't be ridiculous. You know everyone can hear you, right? Jesus Christ! It's a natural human function, Danny. Well, hold it in or go to the bathroom or something.

Now, before we grab some froyo, does anyone have any questions? Yes, I have one. I remember you told me he said that. A natural human function. I mean, that's amazing. That's incredible. I have no notes. Okay, laugh it up, Fuzzball. That was a devastating experience for me. Like, devastating. I'm just picturing it. I'm crying. I'm literally crying. I am too, Darren, but on the inside. OK, so despite that tour of your father's

gastrointestinal fortitude. Oh, OK. I see what you did there. You did still make it to Stanford. You made it 2,000 miles from your dad. That's right. And while you were there, do you remember, did you tell people about what it was that you had just escaped

from? I don't think so, but why don't we check in with a few of my college buddies? I met Danny in college. I was a freshman when he was a senior. Yeah, I met Danny as a freshman at Stanford. He was always super friendly, warm, engaging. I mean, he was thriving. Yeah, Danny didn't talk much, if at all, about his father.

His dad? Nothing? Nope. Throughout the years, he never really mentioned his dad. Maybe that is, if that was a little weird. I never knew anything, really. I think one time he mentioned that he had kind of a funny mom.

I met his mom a few times, Sandy. She's great. But he certainly wasn't talking about his dad or his home life, aside from his grandparents, whom I know he loved dearly. To be honest with you, I never would have thought that he had any kind of secrets from his home life or any kind of trauma. He never really talked about his dad very much. The fact that Danny went through as much trauma as he did was a total shock to me.

And so it's kind of hard to believe that his upbringing was the way that it was because he's so pleasant to be around. And now a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Quince. Danny, it's a new year. Ugh, don't I know it? I don't know about you,

but I'm not so much into resolutions as reimaginings. So your resolution is to reimagine? God, you're right. I'm a hypocrite. I like to reimagine myself visually, which means I'm often around this time of year thinking about refreshing my wardrobe. And I can do that on a budget thanks to Quince. Yeah, and they're able to do that by partnering

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without the upgraded price tag. Go to quince.com slash destroy for 365 day returns, plus free shipping on your order. That's quince.com slash destroy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash destroy. Yeah, so you continued to be a champion compartmentalizer and really thrived at Stanford.

I mean, I visited you there several times and I could see it playing its day. You know, you discovered improv and acting. You were even elected class president. I was getting busy living, baby. Which brings us then back to the scene that started this episode. So your dad really would just hop on a plane

and fly across the country without even telling you? Every so often, I'd just turn a corner and there he was, like some kind of apparition, a true jump scare. Good Lord. And I think I know the answer to this, but I just want to hear you say it anyway. Why didn't you tell him about what you were up to at school? I mean, like the plays you were in and all that.

Well, once I got some distance from him, and the more I enjoyed the feeling of that distance, the less I ever, ever, ever wanted to be under his thumb again. And, you know, let's remember, this was during the years that I caught him breaking into my email account. Right, which he maybe started doing because you were now thousands of miles away from him. Yeah, so there was no way in which I was kind of suddenly nostalgic for a bygone era.

I knew when I had escaped and I was incredibly grateful. Yeah, now I get that. And so then I'm trying to remember after graduation, did you go directly to Los Angeles or did you go back home to St. Louis for a few days first? I packed up my stuff and within 48 hours of graduating, I was driving down the 5 freeway towards Los Angeles. That's right. You know, I never made this connection before. But while you were avoiding St. Louis to stay away from your dad, I stayed back in St. Louis

that summer to be with mine. Oh, right. He was dying of lung cancer at the time, and I wanted to spend time with him before moving to Los Angeles. Yes. And then I remembered that your parents drove you out to Los Angeles. Yes. And I remember they that your parents drove you out to Los Angeles.

Yes. And I remember they took us to dinner, which is a sweet thing. Yes, as good fellas on Melrose. That's right. I mean, you know, it felt like such a natural thing for parents to do when starting your career. Yes, indeed. You know, once again, I am struck by how little you and I talked about what either of us was

going through at that time. Totally. Yeah, I mean, look, we were nothing if not consistent. Dudes. Anyway, so once we got to Los Angeles, you and I set about to make our Hollywood dreams come true, starting out writing and directing together while you began your acting career. Yeah, we were doing our thing for a few years. We made our first movie, and then one day, my dad called me up and told me that he had a

bucket list item he wanted to check off. He wanted to take my brother and I to Australia. Huh. Now was this something that he had like told you about before? Honestly, no. No. But he said it was something that he had wanted to do forever. Take his kids on this grand adventure. You know I never thought about your dad quite like this before but he's kind of like a fucked up Clark Griswold from the Vacation movies. Oh my god. I mean yes. Oh my god Absolutely like he has these perfect family images in his head He's trying to manifest but because of his pathology he ends up going about it in the most messed up way possible

Yes, exactly. So Okay Australia yeah, was he gonna pay for this grand adventure well that that is how he couched it at first Yes, exactly. So, okay, Australia. Yeah. Was he going to pay for this grand adventure? Well, that is how he couched it at first. Yes. Uh-oh. Yeah. So, listen, we interviewed my sister-in-law, Beth, who remembers how this went down pretty well. It was supposed to be all expenses paid initially. And then he sprung it on you guys last minute. That $5,000 came up maybe a month or two

after, like right before the trip was going. The way that he paid for it was all like miles from, I think, American that he got from your grandpa, which you're not supposed to be able to like transfer them. But he somehow got like a million miles. And I think that that's why it took him so long to like Get the vacation planned is because he had to socially engineer getting those miles into his possession Wait, okay that mileage thing is it's crazy But what's really standing out to me is I'm just trying to understand this so right before the trip your dad changed the deal like you and your Brother now were responsible for paying five thousand dollars actually she got that part wrong. It was it was only two thousand dollars each

Still you agreed to that. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I mean I told him I would pay it when we got back It's hard for me to see how you could have seen this being anything other than a disaster I mean, there's already, like, money disagreement happening before the trip even starts. Yeah, I know, but what can I say? I was in my mid-20s, it was a mostly paid-for, at this point, trip to Australia. I wanted to travel, I don't know.

But, Danny, you had spent so much time under your dad's control only to finally, finally break free your words. You got to experience a new life at Stanford, and then in LA, you're an adult with full autonomy. So I'm just like, why? Why agree to this? Okay, how dare you use my own words against me, number one. I mean, look, I think if I'm being honest, there's a couple of things that I think were going on.

Number one, it had been a few years since I had been under his thumb, so I think it sort of of just the immediacy of that had faded just a little bit. And I think secondly, I still was in the cycle that I desperately wanted a dad. I wanted my dad and I thought that this trip could maybe represent my dad at his best.

Like I know that that maybe doesn't make a ton of sense, but I guess I bought into that Clark Griswold version of him. I bought into his vision for what this could be. Was it delusional? Sure, but I mean, I guess that just shows how much I wanted it to be true. Oh yeah, I mean, I get it, I get it. It's very sad.

Yeah, I know, look, I wasn't going into this situation naively, okay? I Look, I wasn't going into this situation naively. I knew what I was getting into. Ahead of time, I thought a lot about how I was going to survive it. Survive, as a word to describe a mostly paid for vacation with your dad and your brother, that says everything. Fair enough.

But basically, the way I figured I could survive was by using the whole trip as research. Right. OK, this I remember. Because you and I had talked about, you know, one day writing something with your dad as this character. Exactly. So this seemed like a good chance to get some detailed notes. Yeah. So I got a little moleskin and I told myself that anytime I felt uncomfortable or anxious, I would just write down what was happening.

Now, the crazy thing is that here we are all these years later, and you and I have never actually gone over what's in that notebook. Oh, it's so much worse than that, Darren, because I'd never gone over it myself until we were prepping for this episode. I mean, the blocking out of things continues. So at long last, let's do this. Give us a taste, like, what kind of stuff did you find in there?

Well, okay, before I read you any of it, let me just say that very early on in the trip, like on the airplane to Australia, my dad noticed that I was writing furiously in this thing, and he started asking me about it. He was getting paranoid. Hmm. How did he know that you were writing about him? Well, I think the timing was just, like, too suspicious, because every time he would get into a row with somebody or whatever, like two seconds later, I'd bring out my little

notebook and start writing. He'd put two and two together. Yeah, plus, you know, narcissist. Right. Okay, well, let's get into this journal of yours. Yeah, so, okay, here's the kind of stuff I was writing about at the beginning of the trip. And I'm gonna quote, first thing dad does in hotel room is eat the

Pringles from the minibar he then claims to the front desk that he thought it was a gift a gift that's classic Richard Jacobs right there right okay now here I've written an itemized list of all the things my dad had delivered to our room when we arrived he used to do this I think my mom might have talked about it actually in an interview on a previous episode about how the moment my dad gets to a hotel, he asks for the world. Yes, yes. I remember that. I remember saying something like that. Okay, so what's his list? Yes, hello. I need 25 hangers, 10 shampoos, 10 conditioners, 10 towels, feathered pillows, we're allergic to foam, four plug adapters, one roll-away bed, three boxes of Kleenex,

two extra luggage carriers, three garbage cans, and ten complimentary notebook pads. And send them up right away, huh? Mother of God! This was all on like one call? Yep, and just below that list I wrote, constant stream of people delivering things to the room. Oh my God, okay. I'm loving this.

What else you got? Right, so after we got settled in our rooms, it was time to explore the city from a culinary perspective. But it soon became very clear to me that because my dad was paying for the vast majority of the trip, our restaurant choices were going to be limited. Oh boy. So here's what I wrote about our trip to, you guessed it, McDonald's. Dad colon wants water ribs.

Bro colon wants to take a picture of the slightly different menu. Me colon refuses to go inside. Ha, nice. Good for you taking a stand. And that leads us to day two. And here's what we've got. Dad suddenly wants us to pay for breakfast and lunch, claiming he didn't expect to pay $10 for lunches. He offers $5 a day for breakfast and lunch.

The first day's tour is cancelled. Me and my bro try to convince him that the saved money should go to our meals. First morning spent in negotiation. Oh, my God. Okay. I mean, this, first of all, is the perfect example of what we were talking about. Your dad has successfully gotten both his boys to Australia

for this legendary trip together. And what does he do? He starts to fuck it up almost immediately. And you guys are literally arguing half the day away. Yeah. Now just below that stuff about the negotiations, apparently this was the next day and we did go on a tour because I wrote things like, quote, dad insists on pointing out every American company. Ooh, Pizza Hut, guys.

Well, that's interesting because I feel like that actually fits into the category of most boomers, you know? Yeah, totally. My dad had it all. You want normal boomer stuff? We got it. You want malignant narcissists? Check.

He was a one-stop shop. OK, now one thing I want to point out, which is really interesting, is what I wrote next. When I'm out with my dad, it's one of the few times in my life I get very quiet. Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's kind of profound.

And really heartbreaking, I have to say. For all the time I've known you, I can't say that I know that version of you. Like a quiet Danny? Who's that? Yeah, you know what? Neither do I, really. Like, it requires a special kind of human being

to bring it out in me, I guess. To me, it kind of sounds like being with your dad, maybe you revert back to that scared little boy, you know? You were probably quiet so often when you were a kid, just watching in shame as he got into it with people. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, I have to say, I am so invested in this trip now. So what happens next?

Next it's dinner time. And here's what I wrote. Go to restaurant, too expensive, wander around for 45 minutes. Then we go to dinner at Subway. Of course, this goes back to the $10 argument earlier in the day. I make a veiled threat that I'm only going to give him $1,500. He says that if I don't give him $2,000, he'll take my money from my inheritance. So he'll get it anyway. He wants the remaining crust from my spicy Italian

sandwich. I crunch it up and throw it away. He says that was very mean. After dinner is finished, a standoff. Dad wants to force us to sit. We want to go. No one says anything. We silently retreat to our worlds. Bro, cell phone. Me, Ginsburg's howl. Dad, map. Eventually, subway is closing. The lights are turned off. Still, we sit in silence. Dad starts to sleep. Every time he falls asleep, I find a way to make a noise to wake him. The irony? This is the most relaxed I've been so far. I end the day by leaving a desperate message for my girlfriend about not wanting to be here. I sit underneath the phone on the floor.

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Like there's so much packed in there. I don't even know where to, first of all, I forgot to mention this before, but how in the world did your dad expect to not pay at least $10 for lunches? That's as delusional as it gets. Second of all, I mean, the details there are so revealing. There's so much underlying rage from you, I have to say.

Underlying? I think smashing up my spicy Italian sandwich bread and throwing it away is kind of on the surface. That's fair. And then, oh god, the three of you sitting there in this subway in silence and the lights are going off. How long is this? Is this hours?

I mean, at least an hour, maybe two. I'm not sure. Oh god. The day ends in such a sad, sad way. Yeah, and this is day two, okay? I think I realized by this point that, to quote Arrested Development, I had made a terrible mistake.

You had put yourself once again in a situation where he had all the control. It was a nightmare. And one more thing, Ginzeberg's howl, dude. Oh, god damn it. Seriously, could you be any more of a douchey cliche? I knew you were gonna mention that. I do appreciate you not censoring that

because it gave me a real layup. We won't linger on it though, I'll let the audience draw their own conclusions a douchey cliche. I knew you were going to mention that. I do appreciate you not censoring that because it gave me a real layup. We won't linger on it though. I'll let the audience draw their own conclusions. Douche. What happened on day three? Well, more food stuff. We go on a boat cruise that has a seafood buffet lunch and here's what I wrote about it.

Dad goes back for food three times. Says it first. No, I'm sticking to the high protein stuff. This all looks delicious. But then he gets a huge plate of desserts. The people around are aghast. As Dad comes back from the buffet, he spills and drops things constantly,

eats in an almost animalistic way. You know who you are. You're David Attenborough reporting on the American narcissist in his natural habitat. Here we observe the American narcissist, guided by little more than instinct, as he surveys his offerings with a ravenous gaze. Unfazed by the concept of moderation, he piles his plate high with oysters, prawns, and towering mounds of battered fish. There will be no mating today.

So anyway, day four had something interesting. Here's what I wrote. While waiting for the tour, I'm looking at photos on dad's camera and there are a hundred photos of a house. When I inquire if he's selling it or something, he is coy. I'm helping them, he says. After a bit of prodding, he goes on the offensive. I don't want to tell you because it always goes back to your mother.

Now, this is Danny and the present piping in to say that this trip is happening in 2007. So they have been divorced for close to 25 years at this point. Anyway, then I guess I just said, what? And he said, and eventually we're're gonna have to go to court. What are you talking about? I ask. Because she won't pay medical bills and you never tell me anything. Yes, I do. Have you ever called me on one of your trips?

Like to Guatemala? I didn't call anyone. I don't understand. I asked you if you were serving as a real estate agent and you tell me you're going to sue mom and that I should have called you in Guatemala? My brother laughs. I say to him, do you understand the logic? Bro, I don't understand the logic of most of what dad says.

Oh my God. I have to say there's a lot there, but I'm just sort of shocked. It's kind of a revelation how much Sandy is still hunting your dad after all these years. Yes. And I think you nailed it. The man, he went on the offensive

because he was feeling trapped by what? By your curiosity? Yeah, but let's just say what it was. It was a son simply being curious about what his dad was up to. It is so emblematic of the immense gulf that would always be between us. Intimacy and vulnerability only flowed one way.

Yes, okay, okay, what else, what else? Darren want more! Okay, let's see. Over the next few days, there are a bunch of, like, random little things that I think paint a fuller picture. I mean? Yeah, okay, like this stuff. Dad on bus, anxious to get front seat, puts his jacket on someone else's seat. Dad reads newspapers as the tour bus takes us through beautiful mountains. We go through a tunnel and Dad asks... Do the lights above the scenes work? as the tour bus takes us through beautiful mountains. We go through a tunnel and Dad asks.

The lights above the scenes work? The driver says, we'll be out soon, it's a tunnel. Uh, what else? Okay, oh, Dad slams his seat back into the people behind him. Dad is consistently the last person back to the bus at every stop, everyone waits for him. At a winery, Dad asks.

What's the air temperature in here? Tour guide, I don't know, I don't care, everyone waits for him. At a winery, dad asks, What's the air temperature in here? Tour guide. I don't know, I don't care, it doesn't matter. Also at winery, dad asks guide, You find that many alcoholics work here? Then I wrote, the objective of the questions is to entertain everyone. My dad thinks people will enjoy his wit.

They don't. The great irony of my father is he wants to be liked. Wow that is quite an irony and it definitely paints a picture doesn't it? I mean I mean I'm struck by the relentlessness of this like everything is a scene. Every moment he's doing something weird, pissing somebody off. It's almost 20 years later and I'm experiencing this like secondhand through your journal and yet I'm still cringing in my seat. It's a tiny, tiny microcosm of my childhood. Right, but for the most part though,

a lot of this stuff is annoying to the people around you, but it's not exactly destructive. I mean, there's some legitimately funny things that have happened so far on this trip. Oh, a hundred percent, but it's all leading up to what happens next. Oh boy. So for context, we're about seven days

into what I think was a roughly 16 day for context, we're about seven days into what I think was a roughly 16-day trip. So we're about halfway through. And again, I'm surviving by writing, writing down all this stuff in my little notebook. But then, on the morning of day eight, I wake up to find that my dad had ripped pages out of my notebook.

Oh, no. Yeah. While you were sleeping? Yep. And to say I was, like, furious about this would be an enormous understatement. I was rageful, Darren. Why would he do that? I mean, I'm not 100% sure.

I had my mom's new phone number in there, my girlfriend's phone number, maybe that. Or maybe, I wonder if it was just that he couldn't handle the fact that you were writing about him. Like he was just furious about that. That would make sense, right? Like it was something that was happening that he couldn't handle the fact that you were writing about him. Like he was just furious about that. That would make sense, right? Like it was something that was happening that he couldn't control. So I imagine that you confronted him.

What did he say? Yeah, well, I did. And I wrote down what happened next. I confront him. He denies it, of course. I look through all his shit. Can't find it, the torn pages. I yell at him.

Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. My brother leaves, leaving just me and my dad. My dad puts locks on all his luggage. I tell him I wanna leave and I wanna change my flight. He won't give me my reservation number and denies that he took the pages. Why would I want your mother's number?

If I wanted it, I would've gone to the bathroom and copied it down. Motive doesn't matter. Just give me one possible explanation for why there are pages missing. I don't know, Danny. I don't know. You lost them? The maid comes in to clean the room. I'm pissed. I say, fuck you, dad. The maid gets very uncomfortable. Oh, God. This is going on in front of the maid now?

Yeah. Oh, Jesus. This is so awkward. I can't actually handle it. Yeah. So she gets uncomfortable. And here's what I wrote. I wrote that she said, I can't. This country respects each other. I can't continue. No. Then my dad says, please continue. Maybe he won't say anything else.

Reluctantly, she continues cleaning the room. My brother comes in, feels the awkwardness. It's palpable. Maid just stands there. Dad to the maid. I'm sorry. You've been very sweet. Oh God, I'm so embarrassed for America right now.

Yeah, it was bad. It was real bad. I couldn't see straight. And then my brother and I went to lunch, and here's what I wrote. Bro told me story about Dad setting up a separate Citibank credit card in his name. When Bro found out, he confronted him.

Dad said he was just trying to help Bro out by creating a good line of credit for him. Bro and I commiserate. At end, he pats me on the back, says, hang in there, buddy, and heads to Aquarium to meet my dad. Oh, did he need to go meet up with your dad right then when all this was going down? I mean, I hear you.

I think on one hand, I do wish my brother would have taken more of a stand on my behalf. But at the same time, like, I can't really blame him. I mean, it was hard for both of us, you know? Yeah, I get it. I'm just feeling for you here. Yeah, okay. So here's the situation at this point. We have a bunch of days left on this trip, and importantly in multiple cities. I'm like 26 years old. I don't have the cash to just buy a new plane ticket back to America, but I also can't totally abandon my dad because there are at least two puddle jumpers we have

to take to get to various cities in Australia. Oh, God. So what did you decide to do? I'm Hamlet at this point. I can't decide whether I should just kill him or what. It doesn't feel like I have any good options, so I'm just kind of staying with him and my brother for the time being and seeing how it goes. But importantly, I am seething and feeling trapped, which is like not a good combination.

Right. But I think that seething anger in this moment makes total sense. Thank you. It's actually good to hear that. You're kind of an idiot for going on the trip in the first place. Okay. But once you made that choice, I think that anyone would be angry based on what happened. Okay, so the next day we are going on a flight to another city and here's what I'm writing. My journal takes on a life of its own. Dad can't seem to handle me writing things down so he starts trying to undermine it. He lies about seeing what I wrote saying in front of my

brother, I saw what you wrote Danny. He's writing derogatory things about me. I show my brother to prove he's lying. It pisses me off considerably. I kick dad's bag in the customs line. You kicked his bag? I was, as they say, on tilt at this point. But I knew it because here's what I wrote on that same page. What is disconcerting is I have become something here

on this trip that is distinctly not me. Yelling obscenities at my dad, kicking, pushing, that concerns me most. It's kind of astounding that you're able to, you know, see outside of yourself in that moment. Like you can view your own rage and be concerned by it at the same time that you are inside of it, you know, unable to stop or curb it.

Yeah, yeah. And now a word from our sponsor. How to Destroy Everything is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, Darren, it's the start of a new year. And this year, as I've been thinking about, is what do I want my story to be in 2025? You know what I mean? Yeah. And in a lot of ways,

this show is helping me understand what that is. This show, like therapy, is an editorial partner as I'm writing my own narrative. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, that reminds me of an experience I've had recently in my own therapy journey. Unlike you, sometimes I'm a little bit of an accommodator of others.

You know, I'm willing to sort of suppress my own needs to accommodate those of others. And in writing my own story, I talked with my therapist about, you know, standing up for and stepping up to say what my needs are. And I feel like that's a pretty big breakthrough. That is great. And it shows you the value of therapy. And in that regard, we're really lucky to have BetterHelp. BetterHelp is a fully online service that makes therapy affordable and convenient.

It serves over five million people worldwide, if you can believe it. Write your own story with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash destroy to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash destroy. So I stay with him and my brother for another couple of days.

Oh God. And one of the next entries kind of explains my state of mind. At dinner, dad says to me, don't order wine. I do it anyway and literally throw five bucks at him. Note, we're at dinner together begrudgingly a few days after the journal debacle, though I'm not talking to him.

I agreed primarily because I'm lonely. Oh man. Yeah. I mean, of course you're lonely. Like you've just had this trauma, you're in a foreign country, you're trapped. What a fucking nightmare, man. I mean, of course you're lonely. Like, you've just had this trauma. You're in a foreign country. You're trapped. What a fucking nightmare, dude. And to that end, the next day's entry, day 11, is this. Talking to my girlfriend on the phone.

Banging head on the side of the booth. Depressed. Feeling untethered. How many ways can I say, my God? I mean, you're spiraling at this point. Look, I think this is a lifetime of trauma coming to a head here and a real anger at myself, a growing anger at myself for putting myself back there. Yeah.

You know, you asked about why I would do that. Like, I think I was suddenly asking myself that same question and I just couldn't handle it. Yeah, I mean, so I'm still trying to understand at this point, are you like spending your days with him? No. I was still staying with him and my brother, but I was going off on my own every day

and exploring Australia alone. Basically, I just decided that I would spend the 2K that I was going to give him on myself. So I went scuba diving on the Australian reef. I took tours. I was just like a tourist doing my thing. I mean, good for you. And also very sad.

And then crucially, I still had to go back to the hotel we were all staying at in the evening, at which time I told my dad definitively that I'm not giving him the $2,000, and this is what I wrote. He goes a bit ballistic. This is ridiculous, Danny. You have to pay for everything now, and I'm canceling the rollaway bed,

and you can sleep on the floor in Melbourne. But is that the next city you're flying to? Yeah, wrote dad tells me he wants me to either fly home or pay for my accommodations when we get to Melbourne. I refuse. He gives me my flight info and tells me to write it down. He says I can't take the same cab as him to the hotel. Drama. Oh god but why wouldn't you just stay somewhere else? Like why not just break free? Okay well here's what I wrote next. Bro wants me to check out other accommodations, but I'm not going to. Part of me wants him to leave me stranded, I think,

so that I don't feel bad about never talking to him again. Wow, I mean, wow. That's so interesting, first of all, I find it like very telling that after all of this, after he ripped out your journal pages while you were sleeping, after he basically kicked you off the trip, you still needed him to be even more cruel to not have guilt about never talking to him again. Yeah.

I don't know what to say about it. I just wasn't ready. What I can say, though, is that my dad did not make it easy for me to just cut ties. Oh. How do you mean? Well, we're on day 13 now, the day we fly to Melbourne from Carnes. And here's what I wrote. Strange. I get back to the hotel,

and Dad apologizes for not letting me take the Grey Line tours when I wanted. Undoubtedly, he found out I had paid for them on my own in Carnes. His reasoning was strange. He said... I'm just not myself. My memory's failing. I have to have operations. One of my prostate, my back, and a whole host of other physical problems. Hang on. I'm not sure I'm following. Yeah, okay. It's a little confusing. So the day before, and I'm trying to remember this,

but I believe my dad had scheduled this tour of the city and I refused to go with him and said I wanted to reschedule my tour, which he had already paid for for another time so that I could go separately. And he refused so I didn't go with him and then I just paid for my own tour at a different time. Got it. And he found out you did that and then that's how he apologized by talking about his failing memory? Yeah, it's weird. I grant you, and I'm not sure I understand it. But regardless, we're off, taking a flight to Melbourne.

And one little incident of note is that my dad first has his bag searched because he stole a corkscrew from the hotel and it's considered a weapon. Of course he did. And then the airplane flight attendant wouldn't let him take on a third carry-on, so they checked it. He argued that his diabetes medicine was in it and he needed it. And what do you know, on the flight my dad told that same flight attendant, I think I'm having an oncoming diabetes attack. And I wrote, as he is talking to the flight attendant his hands shake considerably.

Oh. Wait, so do you think that that was actually happening? Like was he having a diabetes attack? Obviously, we can't know for sure, but it certainly seems convenient, doesn't it? It sure does. Okay, so we arrive in Melbourne, and sure enough, it seems as if my dad is going to abandon me there. So my brother gives me his temporary Australian cell phone number so I can call him, and here's what I wrote about my dad's response. Dad didn't want me calling my brother because he claimed he was paying for it.

Bro points out that it doesn't cost anything for incoming calls and says, what if Danny has an emergency? I say, dad doesn't care if I die in the next five days. Oh, God. And then my dad says to my brother, I don't want you to give him any phone numbers. I don't want to see him at the hotel. Also, he's just going to give it to your mother. Good Lord, he is still completely obsessed with your mom. Even after all these years, even here,

this dude tears up your fucking private journal, he abandons you in Australia, and now he's telling your brother not to take your calls. I mean, this is fucking ridiculous. For a lot of this podcast, you've been the pissed off one, but I am pretty fucking pissed off hearing this right now. So here's what I wrote next.

Dad left me at the Melbourne airport. Bro went with him. Dad told the cab driver not to let me in the cab. As he drove off, I honestly feel like I may never talk to him again. I remember this moment so clearly. I was just standing there outside the airport, all these people walking by, watching this cab disappear. And I just felt so, so alone. Like alone in the whole world and like so profoundly sad.

So what did you do? Well, I got a hotel and I went to see Michael Clayton in the movie theater. Ha! Hell yeah, you did. That's a great movie, by the way. Yeah, it kind of saved me there, if I'm being honest. It actually lifted my spirits. And then the next day I got an email from my dad entitled, Regrets. And, well, I think we should just hear the whole thing.

Dear Danny, it was with deep heartfelt loss that I had to do what I did. You did what you felt you needed to do that I had to do what I did. You did what you felt you needed to do and I had to do the same thing. I had tears in my eyes as we said goodbye. I knew that **** had given you some cash and with your credit cards, I knew you'd be okay. Life is too short to take it seriously. We both can hold grudges against each other forever, and to what end? I love you and miss you.

I regret that I told you to call only in emergencies. Please call immediately and tell me you're okay. I love you very much and miss you. And I went on the tram restaurant and we would have enjoyed your company. I am very sorry for hurt that I have caused to you. When I return, I face multiple and various operations, any of one of which can be fatal.

I have a lot on my mind and my short-term memory is fading. As Robert Frost once wrote, there is a road not taken when you come to a fork. I wish we could both go back and take the other fork. Please read Robert Frost's poem at my funeral. Honey, in any event, please call. I want to hear from you. Call anytime. You have the phone number. Just remember that I love you very much. And again, I miss you and **** misses you. Take care. All my love, Dad.

Wow, what an email. Holy shit. First of all, Robert Frost, please read Robert Frost's poem at my funeral. He thought to put that in the email. Did you, Danny? Did you read Robert Frost's? I did not. I did not. By the way, that was not the first time that he had mentioned Robert Frost. He was a fan. Yeah, I guess he was. That particular poem. Fair enough. Full of surprises. Okay, I mean, there's so goddamn much going on in that email. The main thing that I'm struck by is how nakedly manipulative it is. Yeah, I guess so. You guess so?

Yes. Well, what I will say is that I'm putting myself back where I was in that moment in Australia. And actually, if you look at my next email, I responded to that email. And this is what I said. I said, I've decided to hold up my end of the bargain, or either 2k, but here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to deduct my Australian expenses and give the remaining amount of the 2k to

you. I am okay. Stayed at a hospital last night and now I have found a cheap hotel, L, D. So like though it was nakedly manipulative, like I think I was desperate to be manipulated. Wow. Just a little bit, because I think what I'd been going through was so terrible that it did feel like a repair that I needed.

And even though I recognize that in that email, he doesn't actually say the words, hey, I shouldn't have ripped out the pages of your journal. Yeah, there's no apology there. But I filled in the blanks for him. I mean, look, I was still have ripped out the pages of your journal. Yeah, there's no apology there. But I filled in the blanks for him. I mean, look, I was still so enraged and angry and really felt like this could be the end,

but it did help. As always, Richard was getting graded on a curve here. Like you gave him the benefit of the doubt, even though he really did nothing in that email to give you the apology you needed. And I should say, it's just an addendum that when I told him that I would pay the $2,000, he did advise me on how to get a retroactive discount on the tours I paid for.

So there's a... Of course he did. That was important. Suddenly he had a vested financial interest in you spending as little as possible. Exactly. That's amazing. Exactly. So, okay.

So then we're on the flight back to the US a few days later, and this is what I wrote. Dad wants to sit next to me because he believes it's the last time he'll see me in his life. It doesn't happen. Bro and I sit together. Bro takes a picture of dad on the plane. Dad doesn't smile. Bro says, how about a smile? No, not for Sandy. Sandy? What does she have to do with it? And he's going to give the photo to Sandy. Holy shit. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Yes it is. Dude, I feel like I want to just linger on this for a moment because there have been several Sandy references here. Yes. But in total, it is really something. It is. And it's just really hitting me here, like,

however present Sandy was still in his mind all these years later. Like, I know we've talked before about how this was like a psychic break for him when she left him, but I don't think it really sunk in what that meant. Well, even to the point that he's now trying to repair our relationship, but the Sandy thing is even more important than that. You know what I mean? Like in this little moment. I mean, yeah, it's so clear that that moment when my mom left him, that bifurcated his life. That sent it on a whole trajectory. He never stopped thinking about her. I think he thought about her way more than she thought about him. Oh, a hundred percent. Especially at this point.

Yes. Like at this point with grown kids and out of the house and like she's moved on. Good lord. So, okay, so that was the flight back. So that's the end of the trip? That was the end of the trip. Okay. You want to know what I think is absolutely bonkers? Beyond the bonkers nature of everything we just talked about? Yes. Yes, dude. Somehow, all of that was not the end of your relationship with your dad.

Right? He sat on the plane and wanted to sit by you because he thought it was about to be over. It wasn't. This cycle would continue. You returned to him. This went on for several more years. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And, you know, I don't wonder if our listeners are having the same thought that I am, because it's clear as day to me. Do you remember how incredulous you have been about your mom throughout this entire podcast?

You have been angry at her about, you know, how she could possibly have stayed with your dad for so long. You know, how it is that she was able to put up with it. Why didn't she stand up for herself or leave or something like just, you know, constantly and you know, hot, kettle, black, anybody? Here I am doing the same. No, no, I hear you.

I'm doing the same thing. Yeah. I honestly, I just, I can't believe I didn't see it until this moment. I've been blind to my own inability to break free because yeah, I hear you. Like hearing that entire story about Australia, like I can hear the listeners screaming at us being like, what is, dude, what is wrong with you?

Like similarly to how I was with my own mom. Yes. Which wasn't fair. It really wasn't. No. Oh man, okay. I think I gotta say something to her. Hi,'t. No. Oh man. Okay. I think I got to say something to her. Hi, Mom.

Hi. So, thanks for hopping on. You know, we've been working on this episode about my trip to Australia. Do you remember that trip? Yes. And how crazy it was? Yeah. And the big revelation that I had while going through it was I was like, it was so terrible and it was so awful.

And yet at the end, I still had a relationship with my dad. I still stuck with him for several more years after that relationship. And the realization was that, you know, I think for a lot of this podcast, I've given you a lot of guff about staying with dad. Like, how could you do that? How could you stay with him for 13 years? Like, what's wrong with you? And I just sort of realized, like, I was doing the same thing. And I guess I just wanted to apologize. I wanted to say that I'm sorry for not seeing that and for giving you a hard time for that when I couldn't even see that in myself.

Well, thank you. But it never really bothered me that much. What didn't? That you said that. Because I just knew I did the best I could. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it bothered me. I think it bothered me, especially now that I have this new understanding that I had

fallen victim to the same kind of charisma and manipulation that you did over years and years and years. And look, I think one of the things we talked about in this episode with Danny is that, you know, he wanted a dad, he wanted his dad. And I think you, you were in love with Richard, right? You wanted a husband, You wanted it to work. I think that makes a lot of sense to me,

apart from obviously the manipulation, yes, but just this desire to have this family, this marriage or this father-son relationship, it's a powerful driver to keep you connected. Yes, it is, yeah. Do you remember what it was like for you watching Danny go through that? Well, I was a little bit scared,

because he was on his own in Australia, but he's so, he can just put things together. And I was just really proud of him for being able to plan a whole trip and do a completely athletic type of trip and just really enjoy himself. Well I think mom, I think the real question I have is what was it like to watch me get hurt repeatedly and I'm not even just talking about the Australia trip. I'm talking about over years of being hurt repeatedly and then going back to my dad over and over again.

Something that I now realize you experienced yourself. Well, I was really afraid really that when you were going back over and over again, that you were going to turn on me eventually. You thought my dad was going to convince me to kind of go on his side. Right. was going to convince me to kind of go on his side. Were you worried in terms of the pain that I was feeling? Or I don't know. Well, you hit the pain. Yeah, you sure did.

Yeah, I didn't really see it to the point when it was really bad, I tried to step in, like going to pick you up, you know, and getting you a car so you could get away yourself. Yeah, we talked about that in the episode actually, yeah. It's true though, Dani, you hid it from everyone. We didn't know the pain that you were in. So one of the thought that Sandy was just having is,

in this episode, it became clear to me that even in 2007, when this big Australia trip was happening, Richard was still very much thinking about you in the sense of there's several times where, like, he refuses to smile in a picture because he says that he thinks Danny is going to give the picture to Sandy. He doesn't want, he's not going to smile for Sandy. Were you thinking much about Richard in those days?

Yeah, but how I was thinking about him was fear. I thought about him only in terms of, is he going to sue me over something? But not necessarily. I didn't have it in me to, I mean, I was having my own life. Yeah. During the trip, Dad mentioned something about how like, he was going to have to take you to court to pay medical bills, which I don't know what that was in reference to. Oh, that was the time when he tried to fake this doctor that your brother went to. And then I would have, so that he could submit those medical bills and I would have

to pay them. Right. But no, but they couldn't be verified and the judge wouldn't allow them in to evidence. Did Richard just sue you basically until he died? Well, he had lawsuits going for a long time, but not until he, I'll tell you when they stopped. It was when Sid died, I think. Or Sylvia died, no, Sylvia.

When Sylvia died. Okay, so that would have been 2012, 2013, something around there. That's so interesting. Let me just go back a little bit. When Sid passed away, Richard did not want me to go to the funeral. So he called me up and threatened me all kinds of lawsuits

that if I came to the funeral, he was gonna sue me. I remember that. Yeah, okay, so I didn't go to the funeral and I really loved Sid and I wanted to. When Sylvia passed away, he called me up and he did not say, I'm gonna sue you. What he said was, I'm gonna write a book and I'm gonna publish it on the internet

and it's gonna be called, I Married the She-Devil from Hell. Wow. And when he said that, I felt free. Wow, cause you realized. Because I knew that he was so crazy that he wouldn't do any more lawsuits. Wow.

Whoa. And that was it. What an epiphany that was. That was it. I was done. I mean, I still worried about the, getting the house, you know, with the house, getting it out of the trust. But when he died, I went and got the house out of the trust.

Wow. Wow, mom. Man, this is all making me feel like, you know, you and I are, we're survivors. We survived Richard Jacobs. And yes, it took a lot of seesawing back and forth, yo-yoing, whatever metaphor you wanna use, but like we did eventually break free. Yes, yes. And I just, I'm now seeing that I was just not giving you the amount of grace that you deserved. So I'm sorry and I love you.

I love you too. And that's okay. I feel like I was doing a pretty good job of giving you grace. Just want to put that on the record. And I love you too, Stacey. I think so too. And I love you too, Darren. Danny?

Yes, Darren? I think we've done some fine work here today. Yeah, I feel good about this one. But I still have some unanswered questions that have been percolating for a little while. Oh? Yeah. I know we're almost caught up now to the point where we started the podcast when you introduced your now-wife to your dad, but I'd still like to hear her side of things.

But I also would like to hear more from your brother's wife Beth about what it was like for her coming into the Jacobs family. Well you are in luck Darren because that's exactly what we're gonna do on the next episode of... Huh? Ah hell let's just get somebody who sounds like David Attenborough to do it shall we? Better. How to destroy everything. and brother do it, shall we? Better. How to Destroy Everything. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky, executive produced by Michael Grant Terry, and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhart Robert Grigsby Wilson. Starring in alphabetical order, Danny Jacobs, Jonathan Kaplan, Mike Terry, Jamilia Webb.

Jamila. Jamila Webb. John O. Wilson. If you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell, please reach out to us at I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com. Additionally, if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com how to destroy everything.

And of course, you can find us on Instagram and Twitter as well. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.