How To Destroy Everything - Episode 12: How to Destroy a Daughter-in-Law

Episode Date: February 4, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren bring the podcast full circle by exploring the moment that started it all from a different persepective: Danny's wife. As she illuminates her side of the disaster that led to the termination of Danny's relationship with his dad, our intrepid hosts then speak to the other wife, that of Danny's brother. How does a narcissist affect his kids when they grow up, get married, and have families of their own? What better way is there to find out than by talking to the wives. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For tickets to Danny's improv show at the Groundlings, head to www.groundlings.com/shows/theunderstudies. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at: www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm trying to remember, was the first time that you ever spoke to him, that lunch that started this whole podcast when I introduced you to him in St. Louis? Had you spoken to him before that? I believe so. No, I don't think I'd ever met him before. I'd met your mom a few times, of course. I had not met your dad. And I remember thinking, you know, he looked like just a kindly, sweet, little older man.

You know, he really looked like a sort of frail, sweet-faced version of you almost. You know, much older and not at all someone that you would look at and go, that guy's gonna be a problem. Right, right, right. You know, only once we started talking, you know? Yeah, only once he opened his mouth. Yeah. For some reason, my dad was obsessed

with Robert Frost's famous poem, The Road Not Taken. It's an obsession that I have to admit has always confounded me, primarily because, I don't know, no offense to Mr. Frost, but it feels kind of freshman English, you know? But in thinking more about it, that poem is basically about choices. It's about regret for going down one path when perhaps you should have taken another. Maybe it was the only way for him to acknowledge that he could have made better choices. I don't know.

But I'm thinking about that poem today as we finally made our way back to the moment that started this entire show way back in episode one, the moment I introduced my now wife, Katie, to my dad. It was a moment that filled me with dread as I was bringing someone new into the incredibly fraught dynamic I had with my dad. I was worried about what he would say, what he might do, how he would embarrass me.

And if you'll remember, that moment went about as terribly as I'd imagined it might, leading ultimately to the decision to end my relationship with my dad for good. And now, many episodes later, I stand by that decision. But when my brother introduced his wife to my dad, he chose an entirely different road. He decided to maintain the relationship, and the result of that choice meant that his wife, Beth, would have an entirely different kind of experience.

So in this episode, we're gonna go down both roads and see where they lead. How does a narcissist affect his kids when they grow up, get married, and have families of their own? What better way is there to find out than by talking to the wives? My name is Danny Jacobs, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community.

This is episode 12, How to Destroy a Daughter-in-Law. And with me as always, the man I've spent so much time with over the years, we may have accidentally qualified for a common law marriage, Mr. Darren Grudsky! Now, don't even jest about the prospect of being married to you. You know, I find something amusing, Danny. You were very dismissive of the Robert Frost poem as freshman English, but then you really unpacked it and used it as a metaphor throughout your entire talk. Maybe you owe Mr. Frost an apology. You're right. I'm sorry, Mr. Frost, wherever you are. You're right. I guess it's a really

valuable piece of art. It's got a lot of depth to it. It's got a lot more layers than I was giving it credit for. Anyway, let's get back to your wife, because we really wanted to hear her perspective on that lunch you guys had that started off this whole podcast. Yeah, so we asked her to take us through it.

Well, I think Danny was initially, you know, in maybe the days and or hours leading up to it, probably trying to help me not panic you know I mean I wasn't really sure how it was gonna go and I think Danny was keeping it chill you know until he had to say like okay so when we go in there you know you cannot give him any personal information, et cetera. And my sort of feeling was trying to balance, like, my lifelong people-pleasing tendencies. And I mean, the idea of not being extremely gracious to like the parent of someone I love was crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

But I was hearing Danny and trying to understand that. And so it was really sort of a dance because I also, at this point, Richard was still in Danny's life. So I wasn't sure how stern or you know in my mind rude or what I needed to be if something were to happen. So it was just just fingers crossed hoping it was all gonna be fine. So then take me into the lunch right so? So that was building up to it, right? So then you guys sit down and what are your memories of the actual meal and the conversation

itself? Okay. My memory is that Richard was pretty doting with Danny. He was really putting on his best face, that he was pretty polite, but you could see cracks in the armor like... I've never seen anyone eat a plate of ribs like that. This was like a nice, pretty nice, not super fancy, but a nice restaurant. And the total abandon of any kind of decorum. I mean, it was like, you know,

fat and gristle flying everywhere and just sucking on the ribs and getting it all over his face. And I was like, okay, thumbs up. Can I get another one? So Danny went to the bathroom and Richard looked at me with that sweet little barbecue covered face and he was so soft, you know, he was like, if there's ever an emergency.

I wonder if I could just get your phone number, just in case, you know. My health is very poor and if I can't reach Danny. May I just have your phone number? And in my mind, many things are running through my mind. I'm like, fight or flight, I'm not supposed to do this. Just lift the whole table up and scream and run away. Flip the table over, start yelling,

start throwing rib bones. And no, I just, you know, being raised to be polite and to, I just, now that I'm, you know, a middle-aged lady, I'd be like, get out of here but then I was still pretty agreeable and I started thinking I was like you know what if he has your number he'll maybe just bug you every once in a while it's not gonna impact Danny's life negatively like he's not gonna start bothering Danny more so just give him your cell phone number and that's it. And then he said and can I have your birthday? You know if I want to send you a card or a present. I mean

what do you say? No I don't have a birthday. I mean I just I just didn't have the wherewithal to sort of say, like, I'm not comfortable with that because I'm literally just meeting you and I want to spend the rest of my life with your son and me saying no to these things feels crazy since you guys still had a relationship and everything. So, Danny came back from the bathroom

and while Richard was sort of looking in the other direction, I was like, I gave him my phone number and birthdate. Is that bad? Is that bad? Danny was like, oh darn. One thing I have to say in your dad's defense is that ribs are tough. I don't know that it's even possible to eat like a slab of ribs in a delicate way. Okay, but even then, I mean, my dad was Cookie Monster, but for every single food.

He ate with an outsized abandon. Like his relationship with food was very much like this is the last time he thought he was ever going to be in the presence of sustenance. Listen, if I'm being honest, I can actually relate to that. Me too. Me too. Me too. All right, let's keep going. And Danny politely asked for the envelope.

Give me the paper. Oh, don't be ridiculous. And just said, Dad, I'm not comfortable with you having that information, Katie's information. And Richard started to argue with him. I'm not entertaining. You're a paranoia. Just tell me what you need a phone number for. I started to really see Richard, you know, there.

And Danny was, you know, telling him, hey, listen, because Richard was saying, I'm not going to use it. I'll never use it. And Danny said, well, then you don't need it. Yeah, that's right. Well, then you don't need it. Just hand it back. And he said, no, no. Now you're acting like a child.

So please sit down. Let's have a nice dinner. And at some point, Danny, I think you walked me out of the restaurant. Your dad, if I'm remembering correctly, this might be wrong, but you tried to get the envelope back from him. He would not give it back. I'm giving you the paper.

No, Danny. Danny, you are making a scene. We're going to have a nice dinner would not give it back. I'm giving you the paper. No, Danny. Danny, you are making a scene. We're going to have a nice dinner. Oh my god, Dad. Let go of the paper. He like ran around to the back of the restaurant to hide, essentially. Yeah, that's right.

And you sort of walked me out front. And I waited there while you walked back to try and get it from him. And then I did not see what happened then. I just, while you walked back to try and get it from him. And then I did not see what happened then. I just, when you got back. I do know that when you got back, you were scared that your father was gonna call the police on you

and he was making all kinds of threats that were really scary. So it got pretty dramatic pretty quickly. Yeah. And then we got into the car and I remember just weeping yes, and I Felt terribly terribly guilty because I hadn't you know

meant Your fault Katie Like I just felt like you had one job You know I just felt like you had one job, you know? No, no, no. And you couldn't... That was... That's why I realized, like, that there was no way for you to really be adequately prepared. You can't be prepared for someone like my dad.

That is why I realized that I needed to end my relationship with him. Yes, I remember that he also then, I think, still had a bit of that sort of power over you. He maybe had as a child where, you know, you were not sure what he was capable of. And you were not sure what he was capable of and you were not sure if he had actually filed like a police report against you from for assault because you took the envelope from his hand you know you just didn't know and I can remember having to sort of talk to you and say honey I really don't think

so you know I really don't think that he has that he did that I don't think so, you know? I really don't think that he has, that he did that. I don't think that there's any security footage of this, like he's claiming. I mean, I just think it's all, Huggwash. Horshit. Yeah. How to destroy everything is brought to you by better help.

Hey, Danny. Yeah. What are some of your relationship green flags? What do you mean, Grodzki? Well, you know, we hear about red flags all the time, things to avoid, but what if we focus more on, like, green flags in friends? Oh, I hear what you're saying. Oh, that's fun. I guess for me, like, people's willingness to say yes to things, to be adventurous, to not be like negative and cynical is a big green flag for me.

And actually, like, therapy has helped me identify green flags and can help people in general do that, you know, in terms of their relationships and and how they work through them. Absolutely, it's helped me. One of the things that I have worked on in therapy with my own therapist is... I hope it's your therapist and not another therapist. That'd be weird if I... I work with a lot of different people's therapists as well, but is talking about the people that I want on my bus, metaphorically. Oh yeah.

You know, the people that are, you know, green flags that are healthy people for me to have in my life. And it's been, it's been really helpful. And you can get that help too with BetterHelp. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people

worldwide. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash destroy to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash destroy. You know, back in episode one, when we first told that story from your perspective, I really thought I had a good sense of where this podcast was gonna go. Oh, interesting.

Like, what do you mean? Well, I mean like narratively. Like in terms of your narrative arc, how this was gonna go for Danny Jacobs. I am not a character to be puppeted in your grand design. Are you sure? Are you sure? What was that arc?

Well, I mean, I guess I thought that you were gonna find some empathy for your dad. I mean, I guess I thought that you were gonna find some empathy for your dad. I mean, I think I even said that at some point. I thought this was gonna be this journey where you would discover enough of his humanity to, I'm not gonna say necessarily forgive him, but at least to understand him.

No, I hear you. And I actually, didn't I say something to the neighbors in episode three along those very lines? I think I even said that I want to try to find some empathy and they were like, Whoa, whoa, hold off, you know. Yes, you did. You absolutely did. You should see where this goes. Yes. Well, and yes, absolutely. And now as we've seen where this goes, coming back around to the present day, you know, hearing this story again with all of this context that

we have now, I have a different perspective. I do feel like I understand your dad a lot better. But I have to say, I don't have much empathy for him. And so, you know, my desire now for you to get there is, I mean, it's pretty much gone. I wonder where you're at with it. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm there too. Like I've definitely had moments throughout the podcast where I've seen his side of things

where like I should empathize with him, but I'm just not sure I feel like doing that anymore. So I guess then the question that I have back to you is like, all right, so what is the, what is the arc of this podcast now? Like, where are we trying to go? I mean, like if the goal is no longer to get empathy, like what is the goal? You know, one of the things I wrestle with constantly, Danny, is trying to focus on things that I can control.

What are we doing here? And it's my question. I think we're not in control of the narrative here. Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. I mean, like, I actually think that maybe it's become less about my dad and more about how negatively he might be impacting my behavior in the present day.

Like, just sort of like making sure that I don't contain any more of the kind of negative tendrils of his behavior in my day-to-day life. Like, being aware of and then being able to act on those, I think, is a goal that I might say. I guess. We'll see. I mean, you and I as writers are typically in control of our stories, but we certainly are not in control here. Yeah. And there's one incident that makes me feel like you definitely don't

need to empathize with him anymore. And that is what he did just before your wedding. Oh, yeah. My name is Suzy Alice. And I know Danny because he is married to my wonderful daughter, Katie. Okay, yay. So I guess like the main thing that I guess we wanted to talk about is Katie and I got married in 2012. And you got a letter from my dad at some point before that, is that right? Yes I did. And around when did you get that letter? I would say it was about four weeks before the wedding. We were all excited and pumped up and happy and maybe Susie

Could you just sort of tell us the story of that of like, you know when it was and receiving the letter and what was in it? And so forth. Oh, I'll do the best I can because I have since destroyed the letter Fair enough. I would say everybody was so excited about the wedding, you know, especially my parents because they could attend, they were elderly. So we were, everybody was happy, excited, happy. Katie found her dream man. We were just pumped. So I guess this was about three or four weeks before the wedding.

Bill and I got this envelope in the mail, no name on the outside, an address scribbled, a return address scribbled, and we had no idea what it was. And it was a large manila envelope. And we opened it up and started to read this letter, and it was from a gentleman named Richard Jacobs. Well, we graciously had been informed about Richard's behaviors. So I read the letter. Bill did not read the letter.

And it was really all about him. It was talking about how he had taught Danny everything that Danny knows in the film business, and how he owed him some money for a trip. Oh, to Australia. He referenced that. Oh, wow. Right.

And that you were a narcissist. And so it was really more self reflection. He said that Danny was a narcissist in his letters. Now, I had already met Danny. So I don't know if he thought Bill and I were rubes, but I'd met Danny, loved Danny. Was this like, was this, sorry to interrupt, was this like a, like how long was this letter? You know what, as I recall, it was between I think seven and nine pages. Oh my God. Oh my God, really?

But you have to understand Danny, I stopped reading it after page three. So I have no idea what the rest of the letter was about, because I just felt it was nonsense. Was he trying to, um, was he at all in the letter trying to stop, like get you guys to be like, hey, Katie, you should not marry this guy guy was he trying to like ruin the wedding absolutely Oh, yeah, he was telling us that you know Katie deserved better and that you were Narcissist and wow It was that kind of stuff. It was like I said it was nonsense And I recognized it. It was rambling.

It was somebody who was rambling on... Yeah, one of the things that is, like, occurring to me right now is, like, Darren, you and I have talked a lot about how, you know, one of the difficult things about sort of parsing out my dad's behavior is that, like, he often was trying to do something in my best interest, but in a messed up way. But this, this is the opposite of that. And I can't ever, it's like I'm trying to recall a host of other specific instances

that fit into this category, which is like actively trying to do something. Sabotage. Sabotage my life in some way. This is in the era after you had cut him off. Right. You had cut him off and had not invited him to the wedding. And so in a way you were no longer an extension of him. You had like disowned him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So in this moment it's occurring to me that like, in a way rather than being his son, you were one of his many enemies. Right, right. You were one of his many, many people that he took on. But it's, the disposability of me is really jarring. Yeah.

You know, that like, he could just sort of toss me aside in that way, and just lump me in that category is tough. You know what, Andy, I don't, personally, I don't think it was that so much as he just wanted attention back on him. Yeah. Oh, interesting.

He wanted to be a part of the festivities, whether it was positive or negative. And that's why we never responded. We didn't want him. You didn't give him the oxygen. Yeah, right, correct, correct. Man, I still can't quite get over the fact We didn't want him. You didn't give him the oxygen. Yeah. Right. Correct. Correct. Man, I still can't quite get over the fact that my dad was trying to break up my marriage

before it started. I mean, maybe he was just doing the same thing your papa did for Sandy, you know, trying to give Katie like an out before she takes the plunge. It's a family tradition now. That is quite the generous interpretation. Okay, so because you ended your relationship with your dad, that's about it as far as Katie's encounters with him. So I think it's time to switch over to that other road

you mentioned at the top of the episode, the one with your brother's wife, Beth. Excellent, and I think we can start with an interesting parallel because she also had a memorable first meeting. Okay, so I had been with your brother to St. Louis on a couple of occasions, like visiting. He was in town for other reasons and I kind of never met the family for the first probably two years. Eventually at a point where he

was ready to introduce me to the family, we made plans with your dad and essentially we were going to meet up with him at a restaurant. And so, you know, and I was prepped and don't give him information and, you know, keep this to yourself. If he asks you any invasive questions, please don't respond. Kind of that typical stuff. And also we had been dating at that point for several years. So I also knew very well the consequences and like really quite deep invasions that happened and continue to happen if you slipped up or even just natural consequence of the fact

that he was so intelligent and able to manipulate people to give him information. Right. So we were in St. Louis and we're like, all right, we're gonna come meet you at a restaurant. Where do you wanna go? He's like, I wanna go to this restaurant, but let's just see, does Beth have any preferences?

I'm like, you know, I love Asian food, but I'm not a big fan of Chinese. So he's like, great, I've got the perfect place for us. Come pick me up. And we're like, no, we're not gonna pick you up. We agreed that we're gonna meet at a restaurant. And we're like, no, we're not going to pick you up. We agreed that we're going to meet at a restaurant. And that was what we agreed upon before we drove five hours to St. Louis. It was like a negotiation. I just loved that. He's like, well, then I'm not going.

And we drove there specifically to meet him for the first time and meet your grandmother at the time. We had, you know, like I specifically drove all the way there for that purpose. And so we capitulated. So we went to his house. He came out, opened the garage, saw the garage full of garbage and, and he had multiple bags with him and he just kind of shuffled into the car. And, you know, I know he had a bad back, so I moved to the back so he could sit in the front seat. And then he proceeded to take us on a bunch of errands. And so we stopped at like a couple different PO boxes for him to like check mail and stuff like that. And your brother was arguing with him and he's like,

oh, it's just a short time and we didn't agree with this. And there was some arguments about gas prices and we shouldn't be like, whatever. Is he talking to you? Is he asking you questions at all at this point? You know, I was kind of staying out of it, whatever. Is he talking to you? Is he asking you questions at all at this point? I was kind of staying out of it, honestly. This is the first time I was meeting him and I knew about him, but seeing it in person

is very different, actually experiencing it because it is comically extreme. And so he's like, okay, so we did a couple little errands and then he's like, let's go to this restaurant. So he won't tell us the restaurant. We navigate to the restaurant. We walk in. Wait, why wouldn't he tell you the restaurant?

It was like a surprise. Oh yeah, he loved surprises. He loved surprises. So we roll in and we look and literally, I think it was a Chinese restaurant, which was the one thing that I said I was not interested in. And we walked in and I was just going to grin and bear it. And we like sat down. They brought our waters.

And your brother's like, no, like, we're not doing this. This is the one thing she said she didn't prefer. We're not doing it. So we got up and we left. Wow. So then we got in the car and he's like, I've got another one. And I also think if I remember correctly part of the thought Process is that they weren't serving their lunch specials So it was gonna be more expensive than they anticipated and now a word from our sponsor Danny. It's a new year and As far as New Year's resolutions go for me

One of my common ones involves finance in terms of trying to you know invest money, you know You and I we've got small children who are getting older. I see college in the distance. Oh, god, it's coming like a freight train. It really is. And I look back on the years of our kids so far, and I don't know about you, but I have not been doing the investing that I should have been doing.

I regret that, because as I understand it, money grows over time. That's what they say. And so time is passing, and that's why we're so excited to work with Acorns. Yeah, and that's who's sponsoring today's episode actually is Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids, and your retirement. You don't need to be an expert.

Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got right now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change. And so as you know, Danny, I've been using Acorns now. The platform is super easy to use and I started investing

and I'm already seeing results and I'm having visions now of my children actually going to college. Ah, well, good for them and good for you, Red Ski. So, head to acorns.com slash destroy or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk.

Acorns advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash destroy. In that first dinner or lunch, whenever you guys finally settled on a restaurant, did he try to get information out of you? Oh yeah, oh yeah. And how did that go? Did you fend it off?

I was, I realized after the fact that I had some weaknesses that I hadn't anticipated. You know, and this is like deep dive. And I can't remember if I acknowledged it or remembered it in the time, but reflecting on it later, I was like, oh man, he got me. Because obviously the easy stuff like your name, where you live, your phone number, right?

Basic stuff. But I remember in retrospect, he was like talking about high school and all this stuff. And you know, I was an athlete, so I did athletics. And I was thinking later, he was talking about high school and all this stuff. I was an athlete, so I did athletics. And I was thinking later, I was like, he just got my fricking high school mascot and where I grew up and all these password questions that were not on my register in terms of vital information.

Oh, wow. Fascinating. Wow. That's impressive. When you realized that, did you think, oh, I have to change some passwords or? Not really. I kind of accepted the fact that he was going to access it.

And your brother had, at that point, resigned himself that it was going to happen. And at the time, we're just kind of like, it's going to happen one way or the other. It's better to just not spin your wheels about it because it just makes it worse. Okay. I find this super interesting. Yes.

I mean, the differences in how my brother and I reacted are pretty striking. The first thing I did when Katie and I got home was change her phone number. Whereas my brother and Beth were like, well, there's nothing you can do, so we might as well let it happen. And the thing is, dude, though, they were right. Because despite you taking those precautions, your dad was still managing to get your info. Even if you weren't talking, he would tell us details

of your life that he clearly was getting from hacking your email. Yeah. And that was after you changed everything and tried to knock him out and like it was useless. I think on some level I think I knew, I must have known just subconsciously that like there just was no stopping him, you know what I mean?

But like my, my, I don't know if it's my ego or my just like my refusal to let him win that would not allow me to get to the place that you guys got. Which by the way Danny is a quality that your dad also had, this refusal to give in. Yeah yeah, no totally. That's a great point. Man it is really really disheartening when you think about the fact that there was nothing you could do. Your dad was going to be spying on you no matter what.

Yeah but for me cutting him off was still the right choice. I mean, it allowed me to put it all out of my mind. If I had been thinking about the fact that every online conversation I had, every phone call my dad was listening in, I would have gone batting. No, total, that makes a lot of sense. Let's get back to Beth talking about how the rest of that first encounter with your dad went. Right, because they actually left the Chinese restaurant before eating, since it was literally the one request Beth had made.

She did not want Chinese food. So after we left the first restaurant, we went to a second restaurant, which was a surprise. And this is where he walked in, and the lady in the back came running out and was like, we don't serve you, go away. No. Like we walked in and the cook, the owner came running from the back and is like, get out of here, we don't serve you, go away. No, like we walked in and the cook, the owner, came running from the back and is like, get out of here. We don't serve you.

And he's like, what? I don't understand. What's wrong with you? Like, I'm just here to have lunch with my son and his girlfriend. And she was clearly triggered. Was this a Chinese restaurant? Yes.

Wait, it was another, he took you to another Chinese restaurant? Oh my God. It's sick. Okay, I just have to pop in here to say that it is completely insane to me that they left the first restaurant because it was A Chinese restaurant and the next place he takes them is another Chinese restaurant And it's one that he had been banned from how did that happen by the way? Oh in the most Richard Jacobs way You can possibly imagine.

Hello, Mr. Jacobs. Hello, Sung. Do you have an order for pickup? I didn't see anything. No, no, no, no. I don't have an order for pickup. In fact, I'm here for a refund. Yeah, a refund. That's good.

For what? This. What is this? This is shrimp with lobster sauce, number 114. You froze it? I put it in the freezer, yes. It was inedible. I don't know what went wrong when you made it, but I do know that you offer refunds to unhappy customers, and I am a very unhappy customer right now. Oh, really? Is that the case? Okay.

Yes, that's the case. Oh it looks like there's a bite here a little dribble here. Oh some hot sauce. Yes. It looks like you ate most of this. I had a few bites. I did. How do you think I realized it went bad? Oh after eating 75% of the meal? Do you have a receipt Mr. Jacobs? You know what I do. I do Mr. Sung. Oh let's take a look. Okay. Do you have a receipt, Mr. Jacobs? You know what? I do. I do, Mr. Sung. Oh, let's take a look. Okay. Mm-hmm. Oh!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! This is a new level of low. This is some kind of really ridiculous crap coming from you, Mr. Jacobs. This is from July! Oh, look, look. I have been very busy, and I didn't have time to bring it right back, all right?

No, no, no, no, no. I didn't have time to bring it back. So you ordered this two months ago, ate most of it. Yes. Frozen it. Frozen! Seafood! You sick prick! And now you want the money back? I wasn't gonna let to bring it back. So you ordered this two months ago, ate most of it. Yes. Frozen it, froze seafood. You sick prick. I wasn't gonna let it stink up my fridge. Yes, that's right.

I had a few bites. Besides, I don't see it written anywhere that refunds only apply if you ate none of it. You are abusing the unhappy customer policy. Okay, you know what? I'll make it easier for you. We'll call it even if you just give me an order of Mooshu pork to go.

Oh, Mooshu pork. I'll make it a large. Okay, the only Mooshu pork you're gonna get is go fuck yourself, okay? Fuck. Oh my God. You know what, as a kid, I remember my dad's freezer was filled with weird shit like that. Like months old food that had been frozen

and I never knew why. God, we're just solving mysteries here, aren't we? But back to Beth, we are still somehow not done with the first time she met Richard Jacobs. I wonder what Chinese restaurant he'll take them to this time. The last place we went was the restaurant formerly known as St. Louis Bread Company.

Uh-huh, yes. An era to all of our national centers, yes. And they had this new item. It was called a pizza dia, which was like a quesadilla pizza combo. And they have like samples for you to just like have a little corner and be like, oh, I love it. So he sat and ate the whole thing.

Oh, you mean of the samples? Yeah, like there was a whole pizza cut into small pieces for you to come and sample. Oh, my God. That's what he went. And he he ate the whole thing, went and requested another one because they were out of samples. And then like somehow,

and then he, and then he pulled out a cup that he had like in his pocket and started sampling all their teas. We had a cup. He had a cup in his pocket? He had like a cup like, it just appeared out of nowhere. And maybe it was a water cup there or some water cup from some other place,

but it was definitely translucent. And they had like the fountain drinks and everything. Yes, and he just, I don't even know if he ordered food. Oh my God. The gall to request additional samples because they're out of samples, when you have consumed all the samples is impressive What an inauspicious beginning to their relationship, okay and spoiler alert it didn't get better from there

What if you thought my dad sending a letter to my mother-in-law when I got engaged was bad Wait till you hear what he did after my brother proposed. Oh God. Playoff football is here with BetMGM and as an official sports book partner of the NFL, BetMGM is the best place to fuel your football venom on every game day with a variety of exciting features. BetMGM offers you plenty of seamless ways

to jump straight onto the gridiron and to embrace peak sports action. Visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older, Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem? For free assistance, call the ConX Ontario helpline at 1-866-531-2600. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario.

Clear your schedule for U-time with a handcrafted espresso beverage from Starbucks. Savor the new small and mighty Cortado. Cozy up with the familiar flavors of pistachio or shake up your mood with an iced brown sugar oat shaken espresso. Whatever you choose, your espresso will be handcrafted with care at Starbucks. When we got engaged,

your brother hit a camera and we have it on video. We have never shared it with something private that we had. And when after we got back from our trip, we went and we announced like, hey, we're engaged and your dad got one that we had a video and he's like, I want to see it. And we're like, no, it's private. He's like, I want to see it. No, it's private. Push, push, push, push, push, you know, held the boundary, whatever.

And we were in St. Louis and we were going to be spending time with your cousin later in the evening. So we were like, we were hitting up all of our people. And so we're like, Hey, like we got to go. We've got, we're going to dinner. Like we'll see you later. At that time we stayed at the same hotel every time. And we never, ever, ever told him where we stayed.

It was always a secret. He never could come visit us. We stayed at a hotel and we never disclosed where we stayed. And we leave and we're gonna go meet her for dinner. And I was like, oh shoot, we gotta walk the dog because the dog was staying in our hotel room. And so we turn around and we go back to our hotel room and I go upstairs to get the dog and your brother

goes and walks the dog and we're getting ready to go out so I'm getting changed and putting some makeup on and I go to meet your brother to go finish the walk and I come into the hotel lobby and I see your dad walk in. Oh no. So he thinks you're not there, right? Right, because we were supposed to go out to dinner. Right. Oh my God. Okay. And so I'm like, I feel like it's a sitcom. I'm like hiding around the corner watching how this is going to go down.

Oh my God. And your brother's outside walking the dog and I'm just watching. And I just see him shuffle up to the front desk, you know, because he had a lot of back issues. So he had a hard time like walking normally. So he would just see him shuffle up to the front desk, you know, cause he had a lot of back issues. So he had a hard time like walking normally. So he would just kind of shuffle. And he's like, Hello, I'm Mr. Jacobs.

I'm in room 315. Silly me, I forgot my card. Wow. Yeah. Yep. And they're like, they're like, okay. And then I just, the pit of my stomach just dropped and I just felt this adrenaline surge, which most of his stuff didn't bother me that much.

But this was just really, this kind of crossed a limit with me in a way. I mean, he pushed a lot, but this really, I was like on fire. This is not cutting off on a coupon expiration date. This is breaking into your hotel room to get access to your private engagement video, probably. Right. And also, he didn't even know where

we were supposed to be staying. Yes, let alone your room number. So he figured that out somehow. I mean, how did he figure all that out? So I think I know, but I don't know. There's a lot of things that, you know, because he would claim to be psychic for things. So whenever we, and this has not happened since he died,

when we would stay in hotels, we'd get random phone calls at like one or two o'clock in the morning. And I suspect once we get to the wedding store, I can tell you why I think this, but I think he would just call like 101, 102, 103, 104. And once he heard my voice, he knew. Oh my God.

But how would he even get to know that that was your hotel? I'm assuming, well, we stayed in a consistent place. He followed us or he had a credit card statement. I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Wow. Anyway, so back to this, you're hiding, watching him. What happens?

And for whatever reason, which I'm sure is not their policy, but he had enough information. Yeah, if you wouldn't mind just making me a fresh new key, I'd sure appreciate it. Of course, Mr. Jacobs, just a moment. And I jump out, and are we allowed to swear? Yes. And I was like, what the fuck do you think you're doing?

Yes. And he looks at me and he goes, huh? And I was like, and there was like this, like this little entryway into this little hotel. And I was like, go sit your ass down. I'm getting your fucking son. Oh my God. Good for you. Good for you.

Oh my God. So he goes and he sits where I pointed and I walk out and I go and find your brother. And I start explaining to him what happened. And he's like walking back and I walk out and I go and find your brother. And I start explaining to him what happened. And he's like walking back and he's getting hyped up and he's getting upset similarly. And we're kind of standing in front of, and they have these kind of like one of those doors

that you step on the mat and it opens. So we're standing in front of these double clear doors where we can see him and we're discussing what just happened. I was recounting to him what happened. And then your dad just stands up and starts running out an emergency exit. Oh my God, he made a run for it. So, you know, in a hotel, like you have the main

and then you have the first floor and there's like an exit usually at the end of that hallway. Yeah. So he starts booking it. And I was like, he's escaping. And so me, your brother, and now our dog are chasing him down the hallway. And he's yelling, what are you doing?

What are you doing? Dad, stop, stop. We need to talk to you, dad. And like, as he's at the end of the hallway, this is like such! And like, as he's at the end of the hallway, this is like such a vivid memory. As he's at the end of the hallway, about to leave the emergency exit, he just turns around and he goes,

This was a bad idea! Ha ha ha ha! Oh wow, a moment of honesty from him there. Oh my God. Yeah, a real moment of honesty. That is amazing. Yeah, a real moment of honesty. That is amazing. So, so he hops in his car, speeds away,

and then calls us from the car. That's really interesting that he did that. And was like, I don't know why you were yelling at me. I just came by to drop off a congratulatory engagement envelope with a gift, by the way, that you're not going to receive now.

Ah, he came up with the story then. That's it. Yeah, it took him a second. Yep, that's what happened. The same thing Darren with my thing about the hacking into my emails. Like, when you catch him so blatantly, he needs a little bit of time to figure out what he's going to say. And he didn't know yet, so he fucking ran.

Man, I just have to say once again that you really dodged a bullet by getting out when you did. I don't know, man. I mean, I could have been chasing my dad through hallways of a suburban St. Louis hotel, so maybe I'm the one that missed out. Okay, so next up, I think we need to talk about their wedding.

Yes, so to get into this for context, we started by asking Beth about my mom. When I met her, she was sweet and lovely, and she is still sweet and lovely now, whatever, 15 years later, 14 years later. It was a big deal for me to do that because your father was still probably actively trying to torment her after the divorce.

And it was seen as a sign of treachery to talk to her. From my dad's perspective. From your dad's perspective, which I didn't care about. So I would spend time with your mom and I got to know her. And we decided that your mother would be invited to our wedding, despite your father's protests. So we let him know in advance that she was invited and she was coming. And he said, well, if she's coming, then I'm not. And we said, okay, well, that's your choice.

And he ranted and railed. The gall, the gall. I'll tell you what, you are inviting a snake into the lion's den. You know, rang his arms and cried about, I don't know if he actually cried, but just was like so hurt and upset and really just was like turning the screws on your brother. But we had made a decision and it stood.

So we are, so we continue with our wedding planning. We're like, you know, I'm sorry that you feel this way. I'm sorry you're not coming like we wish you would, but this is what's happening. You're making your choice. So fast forward to our wedding week. We basically had like a hotel block and we had a lot of people flying in from a lot of different locations. We have friends and family from all over the country, all over the world. I think we were getting married on a Saturday and on a Tuesday I get a call from the hotel and essentially they're like, do you know Richard? And I was like, mm, okay.

So he never always speak he'd, he definitively told us no, pitched multiple fits about it, had been talking about how sad it was, whatever, like for months leading up to this. And I was like, why is Richard here? And why is he at our hotel? But essentially is he was just like causing a lot of problems at the hotel. Like he was stealing food from their like continental breakfast. There's the food again. Yep.

Yeah, it's the food. It's the food. And they were like upset and they were giving me a heads up because they're like, he might get kicked out. And when you say stealing food, like, Like he would just go and take every muffin that they had in their display and then bring it someplace and then come back down and they'd fill it back up and then he would take every muffin again. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Which we will find out why he was doing that. So- Good tease, good tease. Wow. Wow. Wow. Which we will find out why he was doing that. So. Good tease. Yeah. So I was like, you know, I talked with your brother and we, despite all these things, it was actually quite important that he was there. And we wanted to prioritize- To my brother.

To your brother. We wanted to prioritize that to the extent that we could reasonably. And so I'm like, okay, like leave him be, it's fine. And then they called me back cause he was like doing something else. And they're like, do you want us to kick him out? And I was like, you know, I'd prefer you not.

This is the father of the groom. And they're like, okay, fine. If you say don't kick him out, we won't kick him out. Oh, and then your mother had offered to pay for a rehearsal dinner. Now we financed our whole wedding and we did not wanna take anything from anybody. And she had offered to pay for a rehearsal dinner.

And I was like, you know what? This is gonna create so much drama. Even before we knew that your dad was gonna show up, it was gonna create so much drama. It was not, I was not interested in that. And so I had politely declined and she dropped it, left it there. Like she's like, offer on the table,

you're not interested, cool. We're moving on with our life. So at this point, I confronted your dad being like, hey, I know you're in the hotel. Like, I know you're here, I know you're coming. And he starts finagling to get a seat at the head table and give a speech. So I quickly reach out to the reception place and the DJ being like under no circumstances,

this is a man gonna have a microphone like over my dead body. You know, this is the consequence of his actions. So he got sat at a table with kind of like people that we liked that didn't have a better group to be with. So he was kind of at the odds and ends. The leftovers who, you know, I appreciate it. We're there, but I was gonna say it.

They're listening right now and they're like, Hey, wait a second. I was at a table with Richard. I know who I was like super grateful that they were able to come, but they didn't have a bigger group to sit with. Yes. Basically is he's like, well, you know, I have a reception dinner planned. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, so I have a reception dinner planned. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, so I have a reception dinner and I'd really like you to come. So I found out from the hotel that one of his shenanigans is he had a flyer for the reception dinner with like his information hosted.

And it's like written on a piece of blank paper in pen and like a, you know, scratchy pen marks being like, you know, like the blah, blah, blah reception room, 202, 6 p.m. Friday. So it's like in his hotel room. And this is like a corporate hotel room with just like the bare bones, whatever. So apparently he came up with that and he's like, anybody on her block, please hand this out at check-in.

And they called me and I'm like, absolutely not. And so he sat at the front receptionist waiting for people to check in to hand them this receptionist flyer. And I'm like, absolutely not. So he got in trouble for that. And I found this out from some friends who told me about it later.

What he proceeded to do is call every room in the hotel and ask them if they were part of our wedding party. And if they were, he would invite them and or give them this flyer. Yes. Is this Ali B? This is Father the Groom. I just wanted to call and invite you to... Oh, it isn't...

Are you part of the wedding party? You're part of the wedding block. The wedding block, yes. Well, I you part of the wedding party? You're part of the wedding block. The wedding block, yes. Well, I'd like to cordially invite you to room 110 tomorrow night at 5 PM. Yep, we're going to have a little toast. It's going to be something kind of informal, but you're more than invited.

Would you become hungry? There's going to be a lot of snacks. Yeah, yeah, it's Richard Jacobs. Yes, no, I know what time it is. I know what time it is. I'm just trying to figure out exactly who's. OK, there's no need for that kind of language. You know what? I'm hanging up.

I'm hanging up. I'm hanging up. I'm hanging up now. Amazing. So I was like, oh my God. Some of my girlfriends are telling me about this. And obviously everybody knows about him. He is like a larger than life character that is like incredibly entertaining.

So everybody knows about him and everyone's very curious. So I'm like, let's go. Like, let's all go. Yes. 6 p.m. Friday night, here we go. What do you got in mind, Richard? Oh my God. So this is basically, this is your bachelorette party.

Richard basically gave you a bachelorette party. Yes, yeah. That's a way to put it. And you're going out of sort of like a morbid curiosity at this point? You know, he is just a sad situation and he wants that love and validation. That's very kind of you. Even if he did crazy things, for the most part, in his heart of hearts,

he was still doing them for your benefit, even if he didn't know that. That's 100 percent right. Absolutely right. I mean, even this, right't know that. That's 100%. Absolutely right. I mean, even this, right? He's trying to give you this reception, this party, in to celebrate the wedding. Now, he wants it to be on his terms, and he's going to do it his way in his room.

But it's still, you're right. The goal is a party for you. Right. I mean, ultimately, it's for his own notoriety. But he didn't have the insight to be able to distinguish that. Yes. Right. So it was a combination of morbid curiosity and also letting him have this experience

in the setting of having a clear blow to his worldview that your mother was coming. Right. I see. Right, right, right. Yep. It's sort of, yeah, to make up for that. Maybe a consolation. Throwing him a bone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, threw him a bone.

So, maybe me and like five or six friends kind of like walk in and we're gonna visit with him for a little bit and then go get dinner and have a couple drinks, like very low key. And we go in and you know that like little, kind of like that door jam stop thing that you can flip so the door doesn't close all the way. So that's flipped over and he has his flyer

like taped to his door. So we knock on the door and he's like dressed up on, nice for him. And he like opens the door and he like turns on the charm, you know, and like, if you don't know the backstory, he was like a cute little old man. It was like this little shuffle and this like, you know, like little sliced smile.

And he's kind of funny and pretty witty. And he can turn it on if you don't know the backstory. So he's turning it on, we walk in. And he has the ironing board set up with all the food he was stolen from the continental breakfast. He's got all the muffins lined up on the ironing board. And he had gotten some cold cuts, so he had like a little deli tray,

and he has like two bottles of Manischewitz grape wine. Oh my god. But I mean, this is his hotel room, so there's just a bed with a seating. Where does he want people to sit? I think he, somehow he got like a couple of like rolly chairs. He brought it from like the office,

the hotel office or something. Yeah, the business center. Or went and like snuck into the next door and stole the whole floor's rolly chairs. Oh my God. And so I'm kind of like get in, get out, you know, say hi, whatever. And he's like, Oh no, sit down, sit down,

have a piece of turkey. You like salami? I mean, the lack of awareness though, right? It's like he has no sense that like the situation that he's in is ridiculous. You're right though, it is so sad and there is a sweetness. If you just dig, dig,

dig very deep. Even the stealing of the continental breakfast. He's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna give them a nice party. This is gonna be nice. They're gonna like it. Yeah, it's so sad. Oh god. Okay, so then this was in 2012 and we got married in November.

If you remember at the time there it was like the end of hurricane season and the hurricane that just came through and I think like Really caused a lot of damage on the east coast was hurricane sandy Yes, that's right. I'm broken. Yes. Yeah, basically he sat us down and he's like I have a speech to give Please pay attention and then he proceeded to go through like a 10-page speech and I don't know How many people are there how many people like six seven okay and you guys are scattered some standing maybe sitting on the bed I'm just trying to imagine a couple little really chairs standing like slice of turkey good evening everyone Can I have your attention?

Alright, thank you for coming. I just wanted to say a few words about the bride and groom. I'm sorry that my son wasn't able to join us, but I am pleased to have his much better half in attendance. Unfortunately, a few weeks back Hurricane Sandy barreled down on the East Coast and ruined a lot of people's days. It's my sincere hope that another Sandy won't be ruining any more of our days. Anyway, Beth, as you know, is a doctor, an obstetrician in fact, which means I'm sure that she's quite familiar with the Friedman curve. For those who don't know, it helps us predict how long it takes for the cervix to dilate during childbirth. Here's to hoping Beth has a cervix that's the perfect size for a quick and easy childbirth. We didn't have internet at the time of my son's breasts, so I had to research and find the best possible

moil to do the clipping. I guess only time will tell whether he did a good job or not. When he was four, we went all the way to the top of the arch and he said, daddy, it's a long way down. And he hugged me so tight I couldn't even offer a refund. And that was the last time I'll ever take a trip to Branson, Missouri. It was the great Robert Frost who said, in the road not taken, and it's very important I'll ever take a trip to Branson, Missouri. It was the great Robert Frost who said in The Road Not Taken,

And it's very important that they each decide to consider the other person and listen to the other person's wishes and point of view and also talk heart to heart whenever they have a disagreement. But when they do disagree, remember one important sentence. Yes, dear, I'm wrong, you're right. Ha ha ha. Oh my god. Oh. Hurricane Sandy. I know.

I know. I had the same thought. It's so ridiculous. Between last episode and this one, it is really clear how haunted your dad was by the specter of your mom, which I think is kind of delicious. It is.

And I also kind of love, though, that he masked it here with the hurricane. I mean, it gave him plausible deniability. Like, you could be like, I wasn't talking about Sandy Jacobs. Stop being like a crazy person, dude. Oh, my God. I had not thought about that. But you're right. Though, subtlety was not exactly your dad's thing. No, no, no. Not at all. And now, let's fast forward a few years

after my brother and Beth had been married. And, well, shit just kept getting weirder One of the things that your dad got me for my birthday at some point was a copy of Fifty Shades of Grey What? Nothing like he just that was just like he just sent like I literally got like a thing in the mail and I opened it up and it was my birthday present and it had like a card and a copy of 50 Shades of Grey. So I told your brother, I was like, listen, I feel this is very inappropriate. In addition to that, he actually wrote in this like his crazy scrawling handwriting and like a brown marker. He like wrote like,

Dear Beth, happy birthday, love Richard or something like that. Hope you enjoy. In the book. Like, you know how like, there's usually like a couple. Yeah, there's like a couple of pages in the front with like publishing information before you get to like the actual table of contents.

So he signed that. And so I asked your brother, I'm like, I would like you to confront him. This is so inappropriate in so many different ways. And I feel very uncomfortable. So your brother did confront him, I'm like, I would like you to confront him, this is so inappropriate in so many different ways and I feel very uncomfortable. So your brother did confront him and he's like, oh, it's like the number one and all women her age are reading it and I just, I thought that she would like it.

And we're like, no. And as a matter of fact, we're returning this. And he's like, you can't return it, like I bought it. And he's like, I know, rip out the page that said to Beth and send it to for her birthday. And just so everybody knows that's my cousin. Yeah, send it, send it to your cousin for her birthday, which was like, yes.

And as we- Re-gifted to another female in the family who maybe will appreciate the thoughtful gesture of this present. You know, Darren, I'm surprised that you weren't ultimately gifted 50 Shades of Grey. Well, it's funny you should say that, Danny, because I happen to have a little early birthday present for you right here. Oh, I hope it's softcore porn. Ding ding!

So anyway, my brother and Beth then get pregnant with their first child. I mean, it's not out of the question, is it, that 50 Shades of Grey may have contributed to that development? Ew, ew, no. Well, regardless of how it happened, they did not want shenanigans from your dad, understandably, so they lied to him about the due date and generally kept him out of the loop as much as possible. And around this time in our interview with Beth, I think you asked a really interesting question. Darren, don't you realize at this point that I only ask really interesting questions?

No comment. I'm hearing you talk about like, you know, this guy that you're having to lie about your own due date to. And I guess I'm just sort of wondering what you think, like, what's the point? What was the point of it all? And I'm asking really because, you know, I obviously ended that relationship. But I'm just wondering what you think the value was in continuing. Just sorry, I want to hear the answer,

but like, Dana, you ended that relationship kind of in a similar place that Beth is talking about because you were bringing Katie into your life. That's a good parallel. And so Beth, you're now bringing a baby into your life. It's just an interesting parallel, I think. Yeah. It's, I mean, I only did any of this for the sake

of your brother, obviously. And at the time, they were very close. Right. Once I became a mom, my tolerance really dropped off a cliff. And we started butting heads, and I started withdrawing in a lot of ways. And which was fine, because at the time, if we would go into St. Louis, I would hang out with your mom.

Yeah. Right. Did you notice? Did you notice any problematic behavior in terms of your kids and my dad? Oh, for sure. The last time we saw him while he was still alive, my son was, he wasn't even two. And we went to the St. Louis Zoo and your dad rented like a little like electric wheelchair to get around. He was like knocking into kids.

Oh, wow. Usually when you have like an electric wheelchair, you kind of like bop around and you're kind of on the periphery. But he would not tolerate that so he wanted to go right up to the glass where all the kids were And he would go in there and then back up He couldn't see he had like issues with his coordination and his vision and he wanted my son to ride on it with him He thought it would be like a fun thing and I'm like no and he's like yes And I'm like absolutely not like you're running like, yes. And I'm like, absolutely not. Like you're running into things.

He's not even two years old. No. And he really pushed me on it. Everyone who was involved with him had the experience of like him being inappropriate in terms of taking photos. And he was taking photos and he like, wouldn't respect. I was like, please stop.

Like I'm upset that you're doing this. And he was taking photos of he like wouldn't respect. I was like, please stop. Like I'm upset that you're doing this. And he was taking photos of me while I was doing it and being kind of aggressive like that. And like really wanted all these pictures with my son and pictures of him doing things. And you know, it's funny, like looking at the pictures of Danny and his brother and like all these inappropriate poses

with like naked statues and stuff that were clearly posed. Like he was trying to do stuff like that with the animals. And I'm like, absolutely not. So we kind of butted heads and I was like, okay, I'm done. And so I didn't really probably see on the rest of the trip. And as soon as we got home, I got one of his infamous letters about how I I suffer from a medical like a psychiatric disease called photophobia Oh my god

Wishes that I would seek help and I should pursue mental help for my mental disorder Because I clearly have like an irrational fear of getting my photograph taken I mean, I've had similar letters, not exactly about photographs, but similar letters. What was the thing you were mentioning about with the inappropriate statues and Danny and his brother? When my brother and I were kids, like, I think you've seen a lot of them, Darren.

Like, four, six, eight years old. Yeah, we would be like at sculpture parks and museums, and my dad would have us pose with these like, you know, naked statues, like, you know, coming to the brass and like kissing them and doing weird stuff like that. That's the thing that like eight, nine, 10 year old kids do on their own, right?

You know, it's just interesting that like your dad was sanctioning this, setting it up, posing it as young as, I don't know, four or five or six years old. And it's kind of the same sense of humor, quote unquote, of a man who would send his daughter-in-law 50 Shades of Grey. There's this weird, inappropriate sexualizing, isn't this funny kind of a thing that was going on with him. Well, I think that it's not just inappropriate sexualizing. I think it goes to a broader idea of my dad

sort of pushing up against all norms, societal norms and things that are deemed appropriate. You know what I mean? In all manners of his behavior, sexual would have been one of them. I also kind of see it as like everyone around him are props. To kind of just be moved and molded and like do what I want and how I want it and how I want it to look with no regard to the fact that you're like a person with your own wants, needs, whatever. I mean, every else two little kids. And I can just imagine him just being like, no, do this. Don't, you know, like, come in.

Like, because I lived it with, you know, and just not even having the, like, what can you do? You know, in that situation, there's no escape for you guys. We were all just props in a grand stage play that starred my dad and had no other actors. It was a one man show. That's right. You know, it's interesting to me how much insight Beth has into who your dad was, even though she knew him for like, relatively such a short period of time.

Yeah, she really got him, which made her tolerance of him all the more impressive, I think. I mean, she saw him for who he was, and she still maintained a relationship. Right. Well, up until a certain point. Because at a certain point, because at a certain point. Did when when when my dad stay with you guys when he would come visit? He never really visited. He only visited like once or twice. And he stayed with us once and he I found him rifling through all my stuff.

And that was it. Oh, really? You did. Mm hmm. Did he have a an explanation for what he was doing? Uh, oh, yeah. I'm just looking for a napkin. This car is filthy, by the way. He went through my car. I had my insurance and my registration and stuff. And I left him in the car for like...

I probably went in to go get coffee for him. I went in to go get coffee and I came back and he was rifling through my stuff. And I was like, why is my, why are you looking at my registration for my car? Yep. Yep. It just brings, it brings up so much anxiety that I have, which is this like, this constant like need to be on the lookout. Yeah.

You have to be vigilant at every single moment. It's like when you have a toddler. It's exhausting. It's like when you have a toddler. Yeah. Yeah. You don't know. It's a great, that's a you have a toddler. Yeah, you don't know. It's a great comparison, Darren. Toddler with money and access to heavy machinery. Yep, and ability to convince people to do things. Yeah, an IQ of 160 whatever.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. God, I'm so glad I don't have to do that anymore. I mean, you talk about all that stuff, I have to say you sound so, I don't know if clear-headed is the right word, but were you angry? Did this stuff make you angry? There were, like, the hotel made me angry. The 50 Shades of Grey made me uncomfortable. And I kind of was like, hey, this is your relationship that we're preserving. You fix this. To your brother. But for the most part,

no. The things that I suffered for the most part were fairly benign on the scale of what he was capable of. So not unlike you when you brought Katie into the fold, for Beth, when her first child was born, it all got to be too much, and she eventually cut Richard off. Yeah. But there's one last bit from our interview with Beth that I want to play, because you asked a super interesting question about the dynamics of my family in the face of my dad. Well, I think between the two of us, we know who asks the most super interesting questions.

We will see who will prevail. You fucked that up. We shall see who will prevail. Ah, you fucked that up. We shall see who will prevail. You're a disaster. I was just having this thought that like, as an outside observer of this family, it's interesting to me, and maybe this is common with people like Richard Jacobs, but like,

between you, Danny, your brother, Beth, your mom, some of the outsiders of the family, everybody was having to face the difficulties that were being brought out by Richard Jacobs, but nobody was like, there was a lot of burying of it emotionally. There was no one was really like talking about it in a real sense in the way that we're doing right now,

as far as I can tell. And it was just like, I mean, there wasn't anything you could do exactly to end it. But like, it's just it's just interesting to me that everybody was kind of just going about their business and not really banding together, you know, in a in a way to like, even just talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's not ideal. I mean, I think that that's true. I think that, I mean, my guess is that that happens a lot with families where there's trauma like this. Like there's a, it's hard to talk about. And so, I mean, my brother and I, before this podcast, I mean, we've talked more about it

since this podcast started than we ever have. And like, that's so interesting on its own, right? Because you are literally his sons. You are the two people, other than Sandy, who are in it the most. Well, but the thing is, my dad succeeded in a way of, whether consciously or not, my brother and I ended up in two separate silos.

Right. Both physically and psychologically in terms of our relationship with him. And I think to this day, we view a lot of things very differently. And so there is a gulf between us and in that gulf is standing my dad. Yes, yes.

I mean, there it is. Yeah. My family got torn apart. I mean, dude, this idea that your dad still, even to this day, is sort of standing there between you and your brother, that really got to me. I really believe that. I do.

And I think that's what this podcast is about, ultimately. I mean, we asked that earlier in this episode, right? It's about the gulfs between us, the unseen ghost of my dad that still lurks between every person in my family. Well, and I think that space between you and your brother is like really interesting to me because, well, first of all, you are the two sons of Richard Jacobs. But secondly, in the end, your brother was the only one left in your dad's life.

One by one, my dad alienated every single person in his life until it was just my brother and him. Which would mean your brother has a fascinating perspective. Oh man, does he ever. And that is why, ladies and gentlemen, at long last, we are going to talk to him in our next episode. My brother, the missing figure who has loomed over this podcast the entire time. That's right. It's finally time for a conversation between the brothers Jacobs. That's next up on How to Destroy...

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, come on. Danny, I was about to... Gradsky, you cannot do that. I can, yes. You cannot, no, we have a pattern. We argue, then one of us finishes, we say the thing, that's how it works. That word you said there, pattern, is the problem. We do not want to be predictable

because people are gonna start to be able to guess. How to Destroy Everything. Oh my God. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grodzki, executive produced by Michael Grant Terry, and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhart and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Starring in alphabetical order, Jonathan Kaplan, I better start again I forgot to see, starring in alphabetical order, Jonathan C Kaplan, Ken Kirby, Michael Sutherland, and Mike Terry. If you knew Richard Jacobs and

have a story to tell, please reach out to us at iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Additionally, if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. And of course you can find us on Instagram and blue sky as well. How to Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.