How To Destroy Everything - Episode 13: How to Destroy a Brotherhood

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren sit down with Danny's brother and discuss how they survived their childhood as the sons of Richard Jacobs, how their perspectives differ, and whether or not Richard can be fairly compared to a shark. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Here we go. So why don't we just start with you introducing yourself, saying who you are. Hi, I'm Danny's brother. A man of many words. And you, we grew up together, right? Yeah, we did. And I am also, of course, a son of Richard. Yeah, your son of Richard Jacobs. One question I have. Did you two ever talk about any of this stuff when you were growing up?

Was there ever frank discussions? Not like this. No, not like this. This is the first time that we've... Even growing up, I think that we would have... And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we would sort of commiserate with each other and be like, man, can you believe that? Or I remember being out with Dad and you

where he would be up to some crazy shenanigans and you and I would sort of be on a team was what I remember the feeling of it. Yeah, I mean, I think we would fill each other in on what Dad was up to or things we observed that could affect one another and what he was doing with each of us. Yeah, but certainly not in any conversation

remotely like this one. When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time over at Danny's house. Well, houses, his mom's and his dad's. Whether it was sleepovers, hangouts, watching baseball games or movies, working on school projects, I was there all the time, which meant that Sandy and Richard, or Mrs. Jacobs and Mr. Jacobs as I knew them then,

were a regular presence in my life. But after elementary school, I have almost zero memories of Danny's brother. Kind of strange, right? Your best friend has this sibling just a few years older and he's never around. In this podcast, we've talked about the many ways Danny's family was torn asunder, but we haven't talked much about the two kids at the center of it all. Until now. From a young age, Danny and his brother lived in separate places, but they never lost contact, and as adults they've remained close.

Their families get together for holidays and the like. But make no mistake, these two brothers were ripped apart. What you're going to hear in this episode is the first time they've sat down to talk in depth about their father. Ever. Structurally, this episode is going to feel pretty different. Basically, we're going to let you, our audience, be a fly on the wall for a conversation between two brothers. And of course, I'll butt in from time to time as well. My name is Darren Grotsky and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my best friend's dad,

destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is episode 13, How to Destroy a Brotherhood. Now this is the point in the opening when Danny would typically introduce me by revealing some embarrassing detail from our past, but I'm not going to do that. That's not how I operate. Now I'm just going to, like a professional, throw it over to my co-host seated across from me here in the studio, Mr. Danny Jacobs, the lovable idiot. Well thank you.

God, I should have known that was coming. Gotcha. So how about we set the stage here, buddy? Sure. Okay, well, first of all, I think folks should understand that there's a reason that we haven't spoken to my brother until now. Yes. Or even much about him, for that matter.

My brother being on the podcast was far from a fait accompli. That's right. I mean, just, yeah, to be clear, this was not some dramatic choice on our part to build up the tension till now. No, he understandably had some reservations about being a part of this thing. Yeah, and so out of respect for his privacy, there are some places that we're not

going to tread in this conversation. But don't worry. We cover a lot of ground. And as the third wheel in these chats, I have to say, Dani, I've known you for decades. And how do I put this? You are very annoying to argue with. What?

I guess I'd say you're good at it, that's painful to say, but you're at least persistent, you know, a lot of certainty, extremely persuasive. Okay, well, I am the son of Richard Jacobs, after all. Exactly, exactly. So it was fascinating to have this front row seat to the back and forth between you and your brother. It's like seeing you meet your match.

Well, listen, and I think one thing that's really interesting is that our perspectives are so different. Yes. I mean, we're such different people. Yes, and that is probably why, you know, you broke off your relationship with your dad while your brother was able to maintain his until the very end. Not only that, but he's an attorney and sees things through a hyper-rational lens, whereas I'm much more emotional, hot-headed.

Well, you are an actor. There you go. It's like we're the two sides of my dad, in a way. My brother is this analytical, legal mind. And you are the performative side. I will kill you, Darren. And clearly the rage as well. But even though you have such different personalities and perspectives,

you and your brother also have something pretty important in common. What was, from your perspective, what was it like growing up with Richard Jacobs as your dad? Well, it never ceased to be interesting in a kind of... rather chaotic way. I mean, I've got stories up the kazoo, obviously. I mean, having lived with him, and probably being the only relative who did not end contact with him as time passed. Right.

It was interesting, to say the least. I wanna kind of maybe see if we can go in chronological order, because one of the kind of blind spots in my memory, I have a lot of them, but obviously I was very, very young when mom and dad were married. I don't actually have any memories of all of us living in the royal manor together. And I'm wondering what you remember from before they separated.

I have a lot of recollection of having lots of fixations. You know he has fixations. His fixation at the time that I most clearly recall was on his house, because I mean, that was his baby. He was kind of a futurist before futurism was a thing, and especially as to like futuristic homes. And, you know, he had this carpenter, Frank, who he would have over every single weekend.

And, you know, they would have their agenda of exactly what they wanted to weekend. And they would have their agenda of exactly what they wanted to do. And they would either building in the fish tank or building in making the water and the bathtub temperature controlled and whatever. And he would work on that. And I recall there were times where, I call her Nana now,

but Sandy, particularly because she's the Nana. But Nana would want to go out for 4th of July to, what's that fair called? The VP fair, I think it was called. Yeah, there we go, the VP fair. Well, yeah, so she would want to go out to that or something else. And it would always be like, oh, just another few minutes, we're almost done with this. But then a few minutes would turn into a few hours, would turn into never.

So you're saying that Frank would be over and they'd be working on a project and mom would want to take you and I out to the VP fair and he would just say, hold on a minute until there was no time and we wouldn't go at all. Yeah, ultimately. I mean, I think there might have been a time or two, probably very few, where she might have just gotten frustrated and said, okay, I'm going without you. But yes, I mean, interestingly, after they got separated, I have a distinct memory of a time when it was the VP fair

and he actually did take us by himself and we went to the Adam's Mark Hotel and went up into the suites that were having corporate parties and we crashed some. How old were you and I then? I don't know. I will when remind me.

I mean, when, when did they get separated? I don't remember the exact. Well, I think, I think you were in like nine and I was six. Yeah. I mean, I was going to say something like that. I was thinking eight for this Adam's Mark thing, but I mean, maybe not. By the way, just as a sidebar, even you saying the Adams Mark Hotel brought back a flash of memories

and like how exciting of a place that was for West County kids to get to go to the Adams Mark. Yeah, in downtown. Well, yeah, so we were going out to an amazing corporate party and we were sort of pacing the various halls on the higher levels looking for such a party, thinking that we could blend in, I guess was his idea.

Oh, I'm an accounts payable. I thought I'd bring the kids along. I'll see you there. Fourth floor. Yep, I'm right up on on lucky floor 13. Love working with the company. And ultimately we got to, you know, watch the fireworks over the arch from that suite. Do you know, like, were you and I, how did you and I feel about that? Were we excited to kind of do this subterfuge? I imagine we were. I don't know. I don't remember.

If anything, I kind of remember one of us not being. I don't remember which. Interesting. I mean, you were very outgoing as a general matter. Yes. So, I mean, it could have been me that was not excited about this and was somewhat anxious about this. But yeah, I don't know. Yes. I remember that whenever we'd go to restaurants, you would always want something from the bar

and I would get it. What was that? Cherries. Cherries. That's right. You want cherries and I would go ask the bartender for you. Was that because you were shy? Yeah, I was shy. Yeah, I do have a very fond memory, I guess if you want to put it that way, of one, I guess, benefit of his own phone freaking. You know, there was a particular code you could put into a payphone and then hang it up, and it would cause the phone to ring.

And it was entertaining because of what I guess you could do vis a vis other people in the area around you, you know, pretending to answer a phone call and, and, you know, have some wild story about who's on the other end. It was also, Oh, wait a second. I'm having, would we be in some public place and we would just we would make the phone ring? Yes, absolutely. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was great. It gave us something to do because, you know, like we go to Steak and Shake, for example.

And like like the second check on all of right. I don't know. So there. Yes, it is. But invariably, you know, dad had these crazy orders where, you know, I'll take the double cheeseburger, no bun, obviously. The cheese should be melted, but not too melted, just on the cusp. I'll need 13 ketchup packets, no sauce on the burger. And the pickles should be hand cut, not pre-sliced.

And he'd have to give his crazy order and then, you know, it would always be screwed up. And then he would have, you know, his crazy payments with his expired coupons. And so, I mean, just going to get takeout steak and shake would take like 45 minutes. Right, right, right. And so at least they had, you know,

like a bank of like two or three pay phones there. So it gave us something to do in the interim. I'm sure it benefited him because it's like, get this annoying family out of our store faster. Because it's disruptive. But I mean, from our perspective, it gave us something entertaining to do with ourselves. Like we would make the phone ring. And if there were a bank of phones, we could try to have them ring,

one ring, second ring, third ring, and then the first one. Oh, man, I remember. And I remember doing this. I mean, I just, I remember it, yeah. When we were, I mean, I was pretty young. I was maybe like eight or something like that. Sure. Yeah. So it was an entertaining thing to do.

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natural and refreshing all year long with mud water because life's too short for anything less than clean delicious energy. You know, actually you asked me about some of my early memories with Dad and my involvement with him as a father. He was super big into ham radio. Oh yeah. And at one point, you know, I was getting into it too and he was all excited about sort of teaching me more as code and the electronics of ham radio because the the electronics he I mean he was kind of an amateur electrician

Yeah, and I think you know a lot of these things he and Frank We you know they would be soldering you know circuit boards well. I wasn't all just like carpentry Yeah, so well, but I mean he had a hard time finishing things so who knows right? carpentry. Yeah. So well, but I mean, he had a hard time finishing things. So who knows? Right. What, what, why do you think he had a hard time finishing things? I think he, he had a lot of balls in the air, a lot of things, and he had a lot of distractions. You know, he, he's a man of passion. He, uh, if his panties got in a ruffle over something, I mean, he would be focused, you know, 150% on whatever it is he felt like he had to address. And that might draw him away from, you know,

lesser priorities at that moment. So he could be distracted. Uh-huh. So I wanted to ask you, Danny, about your brother's description there of your dad. You know, a lot of distractions, man of passion, et cetera. How does that resonate with you? Well, look, I mean, to me, it feels pretty darn euphemistic. Like, yeah, you could describe my

dad as a man of passion, quote unquote, but you know, you could also describe Mussolini that way, you know what I mean? Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Okay, let's get back into it. Let's get back into it. And back to the ham radio thing, like, yeah, what do you remember about him doing ham radio? I mean, he would tell stories about like when he was a kid, would do it and met people from across the world, you know, with the ham radio equipment. I remember we would sometimes go to Radio Shack and be looking at some of the various receivers and he would comment on them and tell me about the old days.

Did he ever kind of articulate to you like what it was about either that or the electronic stuff in general, like why he was so passionate about that stuff? I don't think he ever articulated why. I think, I guess my takeaway was perhaps that it offered him a certain degree of freedom. In that, you know, whatever his situation was, if he was just sort of in a house with his family and

he wanted to be somewhere else, I mean it gave him an avenue of, you know, be talking to somebody across the world. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's you and me, the ways that we, the words that we use, like you said, you gave him some freedom. The word I would use is control. Well, I mean, so I can't, I have wondered about his childhood. I don't have a good understanding of it. Yeah, neither do I. So to be able to speak to like why he would need, why control would be the right word, I don't know. I will say on that though,

dad always had this need in my mind to impress people with his almost supernatural and canny ability. And this has surfaced in so many different ways throughout the years. I mean, pretending to know, oh, you're going on a trip next week, aren't you? And then like not admitting

that he was reading our email, right? I mean, being able to do things that sort of astound that other people don't understand how he's able to do. I think that the ham radio kind of was sort of a way into that as well as it was just the electronics. I mean, other relatives, you know, talked about how he would do these radio flyers or whatever they were, they were where he could fly remote airplanes and things like that.

And it was a unique thing that other people weren't necessarily able to do that gave him some sense of accomplishment and a way of impressing people. Yeah, that's really interesting. But at the same time, like you mentioned, when he would know things by reading our emails, when confronted, he would not take credit.

He would say something like, well, I'm psychic. Yep. Or I went to a, or a psychic told me. Yep. So I'm not quite sure how that fits with what you're saying, your theory about him kind of wanting to be seen as this person who has these incredible abilities. I'm saying that it gives him the fundamentals necessary to gain certain bits of knowledge and

power that he could later use to claim psychic powers or whatever it is he wants to achieve, right? I mean, it's just kind of the acquisition of these things that most people wouldn't necessarily assume he was able to do. You know, he could get some interesting information or news from Canada or Europe or whatever that nobody knew in his class. And he could claim he was psychic from that, even though he got it from somebody on him radio. I mean, not to say that he did, but I mean, right. Right. Right. Right. I see. That's really interesting.

And so then what do you remember about then when our parents separated? Because I again have very little memory of that. In what respect? I mean, do you remember the day it happened? Because I think mom said that she took us. we went to Kansas City for like three weeks. Do you remember any of that? Well there were two, I mean, I remember, I don't know which was first. I mean, I do remember going to Kansas City for quite some time. I also remember her taking us and we were staying in the Budgettel.

Budgettel? Budgettel, which became eventually the Quinta near Westport. We were staying in Westport? Near Westport, yeah. It was a motel. Okay. And, I mean, for months. Months?

This is before she found a place. We were there for months. I believe it was months. I mean, it could have felt like months. I mean, it's certainly more than one week. Yeah. And this is before she found her apartment. But when we went to Kansas City,

it was a tough situation because she did that when dad was in the hospital after having had like, some major, like had a heart attack and was having like triple bypass surgery or something like that. Yeah, duh. Do you, okay, let me ask this. Do you remember anything about sort of how dad handled that?

Yeah, I mean, dad was devastated and furious. I mean, I remember talking to him on the phone and yeah, I mean, he was super upset that she had done this. That she had left. Particularly at that moment, when, you know, I mean, he was going in for open heart surgery and whatever, and like, you know, for all she knew,

he could have died and she just fled with us. She also indicated, I believe on that trip to Kansas City, that it was her intention to permanently move us there. And I remember her taking us to, or at least taking me to look at one of the high schools off in a cornfield. Okay, let us just pipe in here to say that it was after this initial conversation with your brother that we learned from Sandy about her intentions when she left Richard that first time. Yeah, you may recall from an earlier episode that my mom wasn't seeking to permanently relocate us to Kansas City, at least at that time, but instead to convince my dad to go

to therapy with her. Right. We discussed this with Danny's brother in a subsequent interview, and he acknowledged that he could have been conflating two different times they left for Kansas City. Yeah, but he did reiterate that there was a time when she took us to Kansas City while my dad was in the hospital.

Which led you to ask... Are you 100% sure that that... that dad actually was going in for surgery or had a heart attack at that moment? I mean, the reason I say is because he has... that that dad actually was going in for surgery or had a heart attack at that moment? I mean, the reason I say is because he has been the sheep who called wolf about that exact thing at multiple moments in the time that I knew him,

claiming he had had a heart attack when he didn't. I'm pretty confident it was true. How do you know? It's not something I can point to specifically. It's just that I had reason to believe I'm pretty confident it was true. How do you know? It's not something I can point to specifically. It's just that I had reason to believe that it fit with my understanding of the events at the time. So, I mean, sitting here today, I don't have as good of a recollection. But I believed it was true.

I see. And just in terms of your... This is not your own experience, I'm interested in dad's, you know, you saying that he was upset. I'm curious to know your thoughts on that, because in my mind, like, first of all, I don't know that there is ever a good time

to leave somebody. Secondly, I can just imagine mom's, the amount of fear that perhaps she had. If there was any time when she was gonna have the courage to do it, perhaps it was when he was incapacitated. And so when I hear that dad was upset about the timing, it sort of, it just sort of rings odd to me. I'm wondering what you think about that.

Why does it ring odd to you? I mean, if what you're saying is true, that she viewed it as an opportunity, then from his perspective, that would presumably be like, yeah, I mean, she took advantage of my vulnerability. Sure, I suppose. But would it have been less upsetting had she waited till he was...

I mean, it seems to me that that was gonna be an upsetting event. And whether, whenever she left with his children, that he was probably gonna be really, really angry about that. Sure. I think part of it was, at least in just some of this is speculation, but that her intent might not have been

to come back. And it's one thing, you know, to go visit the family, like to have us and like, okay, well then there's gonna be more court filings and whatever, but I mean, we'll potentially have joint custody or back and forth or whatever might be the case in St. Louis. But what she did was take us and go to Kansas City

without his consent, without sort of having any kind of, giving him an opportunity to sort of work out anything where like it was joint or whatever. So it seemed more egregious in that sense. But I mean, and also though, at that time, in the 80s, I don't know how often there would have been that kind of sort of negotiation. Like, I feel like the women in marriages had significantly more, I don't know, power, I would say,

in sort of divorce proceedings. Like, almost, you know, most, vast majority of divorce settlements resulted in the mother getting custody of the children, you know what I'm saying? Like that was sort of a thing back then. Oh yeah, no, I do. But I mean, that is the ultimate average result, right? I mean, not necessarily like she had done this before, you know, without sort of any kind of proceedings

or whatever or determination that that, that it was appropriate for her to do this. And now a word from our sponsor. How to Destroy Everything is brought to you by Bubbly Cleaning. Danny, one of the best pieces of advice I got way back when I got married was from a couple who had been married for a long time.

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left when my dad was in the hospital, because she had tried once before and my dad had screwed with her car so that she was literally trapped. Right, which I think makes it pretty hard to fault your mom for leaving when and how she did. Okay, back to the interview. Okay, and so then, like, what do you remember about the period, I guess, where the divorce custody battle was playing out?

What I remember about that? Well, I mean, it was with Hitches. I mean, to him, this was existential, I think. I mean, he felt attacked. He felt that Sandy was, you know, trying to deprive him of access to his kids and house and other things. There's one of those things he was very dedicated to pursuing. Yeah, existential. That's interesting. A man of passion.

So, you know, I have video of us, you know, there was a period in which he got supervised visitations. Do you remember those? Yeah, yes. What I remember is we'd go to the courthouse like for an hour or two hours a week and we'd be in this room with a window that was observational. In fact, the video that I have is of the recording of one of those through the observational window. Like you and I are just like horsing around, jumping on tables and being crazy. And we're just all sort of hanging out in this room.

Do you remember anything about those visits? Yeah, but your understanding of that video is wrong. That video, as part of the court's assessment as to who should be getting custody or whether it should be split or whatnot, we were kind of assigned a guardian of item. And as part of this, there was kind of an attempt to sort of assess by some psychotherapist of some sort how we behaved with each of our parents and how they behaved with us. And so there were scheduled events where we would,

one was we would go with dad and sit in this room and it was sort of for him to demonstrate what his interactions were with us. And then same with Sandy, she had another opportunity to do that. And what was recorded was the one with Dad. And I mean, I have a specific recollection of that particular recording.

He had pissed me off at some point before that. And I don't remember what it was, but there was something that really annoyed me. And it had occurred to me that, I mean, I don't know how old I was. How old do you think I was in that really annoyed me. And it had occurred to me that, I mean, I don't know how old I was. How old do you think I was in that video? I may be 10.

Nine, I don't know. But it occurred to me that I could get back to him by like really misbehaving. To get back at him, wow. During this event. Wow. And I did, I did. Wow, I mean, I feel like that's,

I mean, that's a high stakes move. Well, I mean, yes, but at the same time, I mean, 10 year old isn't exactly aware of repercussions. Right, of course. But I mean, I certainly became aware and I certainly felt bad about it. But yeah, what the video is referring to, I believe, is one in which ultimately it resulted in my like hiding behind a screen and refusing to, you know, listen to Dad or do, you know, I was very rebellious, intentionally. I mean, look, I guess my memory of that particular one is off, but subsequently there was a period in which we would go every Friday and there would be no observational window.

The person would sit in the hallway and we would hang out with him. Do you remember that? Yep, I mean, there weren't that many of those. I mean, that wasn't super frequent, but yes, I remember those. And I mean, I even remember, I mean, and this was kind of memorable to me,

at least that Sandy had used that opportunity to try to serve Dab with papers and various litigation with him. And that was kind of annoying. Annoying for you? Yeah, I mean, I felt bad. I mean, he is a paranoid guy. I mean, or was, I mean, like, you know,

and he's a guy who would absolutely try to avoid getting served, you know, he wouldn't answer a door or whatever. And to the extent that like, she was using, you know, these supervised visits, it almost she was using, you know, these supervised visits, it almost felt like she was using us as pawns in a way to guarantee that she could get him when she otherwise couldn't. But if she otherwise couldn't, didn't that need to happen then?

You know, there is the practicality of it in which the answer is yes Uh-huh, and then there's sort of the more emotional aspect of it, which is you know, it's it's still seem shitty I mean, I mean like, you know these are these are times when we're there to spend time with our father and the idea that An already somewhat paranoid guy has to be more paranoid that like appearing with to see us you know is making himself susceptible to service and other stuff I mean it was that the only time during that period that you I'm just trying to understand like the the logistics of this so you guys were living with Sandy at that time and then you would only

have this like weekly opportunity to see your dad yeah that's what I remember but I think that was as I, I think that was brief. I mean, I can't imagine that happening more than four or five times. Yeah. Yeah. A few months, maybe. Right. So but I hear what you're saying at the same time. I'm like, wait a second. But it's his paranoia. Like nobody else is responsible for that paranoia, but him. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Well, you were like he was already a paranoid guy as if, oh, this, this like serving him a paper somehow, you know, like it plays into his paranoia, but he knows that's nobody's fault but his. You know, did he? Well, I this paranoia, that's

a lot, you know, sensible. This is a situation where, you know, he certainly knew the rules of the game in terms of litigation and had every intention to avoid service as best he could. And it's not paranoia in some kind of irrational way here. And what's being fed here is, you know, by having him serve there, you know, it makes it more difficult or uncomfortable for him to be there. And so you're just saying from a purely the standpoint of like us from the children, it makes that less enjoyable or smooth.

I mean, it kind of, you know, it taints it a bit. is do you think that the paranoia that he had was purely about being served in whatever various court proceedings he was involved in or do you think there was something else? Like I remember when he would, do you remember when he would like pull over to the side of the road, we put this in the first episode, right?

Where he would sort of let the people pass him, he would think that somebody was following us. Do you remember stuff like that? Not like that. I remember he, I mean, he certainly did things that were unclear and I certainly didn't understand that for suggestive or some strange paranoia, I guess that are akin to that. I mean, all of his windows, you know, had bedsheets on them or, you know, even in the garage, he had, you know had cardboard boxes blocking the windows and he didn't want anybody knowing that anyone was home.

And similarly he had hooked up to his back door some kind of, you know how I was describing the touch lights where if you touch it the lights can dim or turn on and off. Well he had something that detects touch on the actual doorknob for the back door. And if anybody touched it, then it would activate some circuit and a dog would start barking. It would be a recorded dog bark. Oh, right. I remember that. Like all the locks on his doors were bizarre. I mean, he got these special locks that when you have a key,

you put it in. I mean, normally with a key, you put it in, I mean normally with a key, you put it in and you turn, right? His keys, you put it in all the way, then you have to pull it out just a notch. Oh my God, I remember that. I actually remember that too. I remember that, that's right. Whoa.

Yeah, and some of them like to the garage, they were like removable. There was like a deadbolt in the utility room to the garage with that key. Like the deadbolt itself was actually a removable key. Oh. Anyway, so there were odd things that he would do. And like sometimes I would ask him about it, like why?

I mean, and you know, his response would be something like, I can't always tell why, but I know it will be important or meaningful at some point. Meaning he didn't know why or he couldn't tell you why? My interpretation was that he did not know why, but he knew he had to do it.

That it was important. Interesting. It was not, he did not have a specific threat. danger that he was trying to, you know, had in mind that he was trying to address. So, I mean, that's like pure paranoia. Well, I'm not a therapist, so I don't know. Yeah, but I mean. But whatever it is.

I mean, sometimes it's even surfaced with me. He was adamant that I wasn't even living with him, right? I mean, this is later in our relationship when I'd gone off and was on my own. But he was adamant that I maintain a hardwired phone line. And I'm like, why? What's wrong with the cells? I'm like, well, the disasters and whatever, you really need to do this. I mean, almost as he was speaking,

almost as if he had some knowledge that there was gonna be some event and I would really regret not having that hardwired phone line. But it was like super important to him. And I mean- Yeah, but can I throw out when you tell me that, my thought is that that has nothing to do

with his instinct that there's gonna be some apocalyptic event and has everything to do with the likelihood that it was easier for him to tack into your phone line if it was a hardwired phone as opposed to a cell phone. Yeah, and that's certainly fair and possible. But I guess you pair these with these other instances of, you know, paranoid behavior. Sometimes it's not clear what is really in his mind.

And, you know, and same with, you know, the magical thinking, right? I mean, sometimes it seemed like he convinced himself of stuff that didn't make any sense. It was hard to tell. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by OneSkin. Gradsky, you know how they talk about how when women are pregnant they say, oh my gosh you're glowing. You know how that is a thing. Well, I gotta say, I'm not pregnant, but people have been saying that to me the last few weeks, and I think the reason is because I've been using one skin. I've been using their

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Can I, let me just interject with something that I'm just fascinated about listening to you two brothers talking about all of this. I just, it's like I'm listening to a kind of interpretive Rashomon or something where it's like, it's not the events so much that are in dispute. Occasionally it's context, not dispute, that's not the right word, but like there's differences or, you know, misrememberings or whatever from Danny in terms of the, that video. But it's just fascinating to hear like every, every question that Danny you have,

it comes from this place of suspicion of your, of your dad or, or your brother will say something and you'll be like, well, but what I think it's this. And then on the other side though, there's so much more understanding of Richard. I don't really have a question here. I'm just like stating that I am utterly fascinated. If anything, I'm like seeing things here

in this conversation from a potentially different perspective and it's Fascinating. I don't know if either of you want to address that because I don't have there's no question other than just an outsider observing this and being like Wow, you guys have such different interpretations of so many of the same events thoughts well, I mean Not really. I mean Danny I was gonna buy you I mean, this is kind of your therapy Well, I think, not really. I mean, Danny, I was going to buy you. I mean, this is kind of your therapy. Well, I think that that may be the crux of it, Darren, in terms of the reason perhaps

that I wasn't able to maintain a relationship with our father and my brother was. Right. Like, if I'm interpreting all of his behavior in a nefarious, underhanded way, that is going to color my response. Right. How can you maintain a relationship with someone who you believe is essentially eternally manipulating you? Right.

Right. But that isn't how you saw him. No, I mean, I did not see him as a malicious actor, so to speak, even though some people certainly did and it's understandable why. I saw him as a deeply flawed person who I compare him as a force of nature. I mean, you know, a tornado causes destruction, sure, you know, but it's not a moral thing. Right. And, and so, you know, there's a bit of a difference.

You certainly can understand why someone who lost their house in a hurricane might be angry at the hurricane. Sure. But you just lack that, whatever that is, that is not something that you have. I have developed, I don't see a benefit to being angry at the hurricane. It doesn't help me, it doesn't get me anywhere. At least with respect to him, I mean, there are, there were, you know, some positives too. And I just accepted that he was a hurricane. Yeah, but there's a difference between having a house on the water that gets destroyed by a hurricane

and your choice is to not move your family away from the hurricane and therefore it continues to get destroyed over and over again. Okay, well, I mean, if we're using this analogy, I think the right way to look at this would be that I would absolutely take precautions. And I absolutely, I mean, the one has to do

what one can do to set appropriate boundaries and to be, you know, to have situations where the risk of loss is acceptable. And that's what I did. to have situations where the risk of loss is acceptable. And that's what I did. And have him at the appropriate arm's length where to the extent that there were benefits I could get from the relationship, and he certainly felt there were benefits

from having a relationship with me, still is my father, and that we could mutually still get those benefits while somewhat insulating myself and my family from at least too much damage. Yeah, well that's one of the, yeah, go ahead, Darren. No, I just have to say again, even now in the hurricane analogy,

you're each taking on the same role that you take in the other discussions. But I would say where the hurricane analogy is falling short for for me and before we go too deep down that road, it's more than just, you know, accepting that that this is a hurricane and that there is damage that comes with that. I'm hearing from you the real active work to try to understand Richard's perspective in things. And you know, though there may be, obviously we're all acknowledging there's degrees of paranoia and that I hear you at times sort of reframing things with a real empathy

for what he might have been going through, a case in point, the Sandy leaving during the heart attack. Right, yeah. Well, I mean, and that I think is something that's sort of lacking from the depersonalization and abuse of this analogy. I mean, the reality is he is still a person. Right, yeah.

I mean, whether he's a narcissist, whether he's schizotypal, whatever it is he had, I mean, as a therapist, but I mean, are those people still entitled to love? Are they still not hurt? I mean, it's still he's still a person and, you know, there is still some redeeming quality in him. I mean, at least I was able to see it.

Or at least I felt like I was. But it sounds like you're almost more willing to accept the damage that he could do because he was someone that you believed could not control that damage. That like, if it was somebody else who you felt maybe could control the kind of damage they did on the world

or the people around them, it's sounding to me like you would be less forgiving of them. Is that true? Absolutely. So it's almost as if because you felt he had no choice but to wreak the havoc that he did, that you could forgive it in a way. Yeah. I just don't ascribe it to intent.

He does things not totally appreciating the consequences, not totally appreciating the harms, and he's driven to them by his nature. And it is not, I guess I just don't ascribe to him. A shark eats. Yes. I don't ascribe to him. It's his nature. And I don't ascribe to him some kind of maliciousness.

It is just the way he is. And that moral aspect of it makes it easier to deal with him as Shark Eats, as you said. Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. I am both in awe of that ability that you have and also saddened by it at the same time. I don't know how you do it. I literally just don't know how. I feel like my own, I'm unable to separate my own feelings of hurt from the intentions

of the person doing the hurting. I guess why? I mean, you know, if it was a shark, would you be angry at the shark for trying to take a bite out of you? I mean... No, I mean, I hear you. I mean, I think maybe I grew up with a little more difficulty accepting that he was a shark. Because there were moments and times in which I saw behavior from him that didn't resemble that of a shark.

You know, that seemed to be somebody who had an understanding of feeling and others around him. Can you give me examples? I'm just curious. Oh, I mean, in the way that he would, like, you know, like, I still believe that he loved us very deeply, right? Now, a shark cannot love. A narcissist's relationships would all be transactional. There would be no real ability to truly love. And so I guess I'm like,

well, if you think also that that's true, that he truly loved us, then he wasn't just a shark. He was more complicated than that. And if he was more complicated than that, then it's not so simple to justify the behavior. Well, I mean, I don't know enough about narcissism and their capabilities or not, or whether there's a spectrum or not. But I can imagine animals have some evolutionary drive to see their progeny prosper and ultimately

reproduce also. Yeah. Whether it be a shark or otherwise. I mean, I guess I don't necessarily say that just by virtue of his appearing to care about us and caring. I mean, I think he did. Yeah, that was my question. My first question is if that's what you do, do you agree with that?

I think he cared about us. I do. I think that's kind of the wrong question to ask. I think the right question to ask is, was his care of us for our own sake? Or was his care for us because we were in his mind extensions of him in a way? Well, yes, yes. That one. And does it matter? Huh. That's a big question. Does it matter? Wow.

Does it matter? Yeah, I think it matters. I think it absolutely matters. So for any kind of behavior, I mean, be it the appearance of love, there's ambiguity. I mean, because he is so good at conveying, whatever he wants to convey on that. And maybe it's real, and maybe it's, you know, some kind of psychological trick.

I don't know that we can ever really know the answer. I don't know that he can ever, I mean, he would have even been able to appreciate the answer. Right, no, totally. So I guess the question is like, to me, which is ultimately the most beneficial way of interpreting this ambiguity for me? Mm-hmm.

Wow. Yeah. And because there's not, I mean, there's not a clear right answer and there never will be. This is an ad from BetterHelp Online Therapy. We always hear about the red flags to avoid in relationships, but it's just as important to focus on the green flags. If you're not quite sure what they look like, Therapy can help you identify those qualities

so you can embody the green flag energy and find it in others. BetterHelp offers therapy 100% online and sign up only takes a few minutes. Visit betterhelp.com today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com. You know, in a way, this part of the discussion is the first moment where things have flipped just a little bit. I feel like I'm like the commentator here.

I come in sometimes just to like observe. Where in a sense, Danny, you, because of the whole shark thing, I mean like the difference between a human and a shark is that a human is a human, right? So he may be a quote unquote shark, but he's still, he's not a shark, he's a human being. And you Danny, in this respect have kind of humanized him.

But then I feel like on the other side, your brother is in a way to sort of like come to accept or see things from his perspective. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like it's dehumanizing to an extent, like whatever the opposite of anthropomorphizing is, you're sharkifying him in a way. Yeah.

What do you think? Well, and I wasn't one who first mentioned him as a hurricane, so. Right, right. Yeah, that's so interesting. So in some way, the key to getting the father that you needed was you dehumanized your father. I mean, I don't know about the whole thing about the father I needed.

I don't know. But I think coming out of from the perspective of him being, you know, that force of nature, that shark, whatever, certainly made dealing with him and getting some benefit out of the relationship possible. Because I did not ascribe some negative, like, moral quality to his actions. But when he would break into an email account of yours, for example, you're saying that you would not feel

in any way angry? Sure I would. I would also be somewhat bemused. I mean, again, we're probably beating these analogies to death, but I felt like I was, what's that Australian guy who unfortunately got killed by a stingray? Oh yeah, the animal guy?

Steve Irwin, Steve Irwin. Steve Irwin, there we go. You know, he was an animal handler, right? And he would play with these animals. There would be some level of bemusement that I would have that, oh, like, you know, he got me here. All right, and I didn't see that coming. Let me just say, this is my favorite of the analogies.

We've reached my favorite of the three analogies. Hurricane, shark, Steve Irwin is the best one. I'm Steve Irwin. No, you're Steve Irwin. Yeah, my brother is Steve Irwin. Your brother is Steve Irwin, and your dad is the... I'm Steve Irwin playing with these dangerous animal and sort of amused by it.

Scared, angry and amused. It is doing what it does and I'm sort of there with it. So hang on real quick, it's not lost on any of us, right? That Steve Irwin was ultimately killed by one of these animals. Yeah, but not by a shark. Too shy, too shy. Not by a shark, that's right.

I mean, I have to say, there is something I'm jealous. I mean, like, you're describing a kind of a joy almost, a whimsy, a mischievousness that you were able to have in that relationship that sounds in a weird, weird way sort of delightful. I was going to say, Danny, are you taking notes on this? Because maybe it's not too late for you that sounds in a weird, weird way, sort of delightful. I was gonna say, Danny, are you taking notes on this? Because maybe it's not too late for you

to get to where your brother is. Obviously your dad's gone, but. I mean, I think that I was and am much, much more sensitive than my brother. And so, I mean, do you disagree with that? That you're more sensitive? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, I think that that's true with that? That you're more sensitive? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Yeah, I think that that's true. I can get my cackles up. I'm hurt more easily. I don't know that this window into my brother's way of dealing with my dad is some recipe that I could have followed. Right, right, right. I think ultimately I am a different person and wired differently, and I'm not sure that I'm capable. It's a much more difficult thing for me to do.

So there we have it, the conversation between the brothers Jacobs. I have to say, it was very fascinating for me to hear this differing perspective. Can I just interrupt you for just a second? I'm just having, I'm to say, it was very fascinating for me to hear this differing perspective. Can I just interrupt you for just a second? I'm just having... Like, I was just... As we were listening back in studio to that interview

and thinking about this as the end, I just... I kept having... I'm having this thought, which is like, look, when we sat down to interview my brother, I obviously didn't know what to expect. Like, you had said at the top that, you know, we were going to talk about things we never have before. And I could just hear myself in the interview kind of opening myself up to my brother in a way

that I never have before. And I could almost feel us getting closer together in real time. Oh, wow. And I was just like, man, this feels so, this feels important. It feels really important to everything that this podcast is. And I just, it feels like we've only scratched the surface. Yes.

You know, this podcast has been interesting because we started with these interregnums, which is the present day stuff, and then our main episodes were the past. And now that distinction's sort of going away as we've sort of caught up to the present and it's all becoming one. And I'm just wondering, like, what if we threw out the playbook, did not do an interregnum next week, got my brother back for another interview in the interim, and just like kept digging into this. Because I just think that the stakes feel so high.

You know what I mean? Just in terms of how I'm moving through this. I mean, I felt, you know, now that you're saying this, in the interview itself, I felt like we left a lot on the table, a lot of meat on that bone that we had not gotten to. And so I'm getting excited about the prospect of continuing this conversation because it feels like there's a lot more to talk about. Okay, so I say let's do it. Let's just pull the trigger and say

that that's what's going to happen. So next week, guys, no interregnum. We're going to dive in and we'll have to make sure that I can get my brother in the meantime. We're going right into the next episode. We'll just do part two of Brothers Jacobs. You know, I feel like you and your brother in hearing that conversation are kind of like modeling for folks out there a way to like respectfully talk about, you know, these past traumas.

It's like we're doing accidentally one of those, not a self-help book, but where they have all the steps laid out. You mean like a how-to? How to Destroy Everything. God, that just worked right into that one. God, you're easy. See you next week, folks.

How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky, executive produced by Michael Grant Terry, and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell, Reinhardt, and Robert. Dashiell. Dashiell, Reinhardt, and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Grigsby.

Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry, starring Jonathan C. Kaplan. If you knew Richard Jacobson have a story to tell please reach out to us at I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com additionally if you would like to support this podcast please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. And of course you can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky as well.

How to Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.