How To Destroy Everything - Episode 14: How to Destroy a Brotherhood Part 2

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren sit down once more with Danny's brother and delve deeper into understanding each other's perspectives. Danny's brother brings a unique point of view - one of understanding for Richard and even empathy for him, compelling Danny to reevaluate some of the conclusions he's drawn about his father. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at www.betterhelp.com/destroy and get on your way to being your best self. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You know, Danny would get very upset. I mean, really angry whenever he would discover that Richard was breaking into his email account. And I guess I'm wondering how you handled that kind of thing. I think my general assumption was that he was going to be reading emails. There's something freeing to the assumption

because knowing that, then like, okay, well, if I need to communicate something that he doesn't, that I don't want him to know, then I'll do it through some other method. Also, if I want to mess with him, I can write something intentionally misleading in an email so that he has the wrong idea. Did you do that?

There was a fun time with my first kid. He wanted to know what we wanted to name the kid. And I came up with this absolutely ridiculous name. I mean, it was like Smybird or something, right? And, you know, I on the phone, I was like trying to be, you know, as persuasive. I could be, oh, it's this amalgam of, you know, grandma and grandpa. And it's really meaningful to my wife. And, you know, it just it's so perfect.

And like I would, you know, write some emails, perhaps to my wife about, you it just it's so perfect and like I would you know write some emails perhaps to my wife about you know the name and whatever or send some lists with with that name as our top choice and mm-hmm and at some point you know it he tried to to try to like call my bluff he was like okay well if you're gonna name him spider that you know I well first of all he tried to convince me that that was not the right name to do he really wanted me to use something else but then he was trying to call my my bluff and was like um you know I wanted to buy some embroidered baby blankets with with his name on it and and some embroidered this and that and you know it's it's gonna be Smybert and I'm like yeah go ahead that'd be awesome I mean you know in my mind, if he actually went through with it and did it,

that would be an awesome story. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So I mean, it's kind of an example of how, you know, we kind of turned the table on him a little bit just to have fun with, with the knowledge of his behavior and how he functions. Obviously, the kid's not a survivor. As Danny's older brother, I too had a front row seat for the Richard Jacobs show. But as he noted, our paths diverged in our youth, both physically and emotionally.

Though we share many formative experiences, the differences in our age, our living arrangements, and our personalities led us to develop vastly different coping mechanisms. I have to admit that hearing my dad depicted primarily as a rampaging monster with nefarious motives has been at times a difficult experience. The man I knew was more complex. Deeply flawed, yes, but also someone who I believe was genuinely struggling, perhaps even suffering within the confines of his own distorted reality.

This afforded me some room for empathy and enough space to appreciate other aspects of his personality. Now, I understand Danny's pain and his perspective, and while I've accepted the mindful truth of Richard Jacobs, may not ever be adequately conveyed in this space, my hope is that listeners will come away with a deeper appreciation for the nuance and the complexity that I see when I think of my father, Richard Jacobs.

I'm Danny's brother, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast exploring how one narcissist, our dad, impacted his family, his neighborhood, and his community, primarily through my brother's lens and informed by the accounts of others. This is episode 14, How to Destroy a Brotherhood, part two. Very, very nicely done.

I mean, yes, first time out, and you're already a podcast vet, well done. I have to also say, it's very strange having heard Danny do an opening monologue so many times to hear like, you know, Danny adjacent, Danny's brother. It was weird for me too. You guys are brothers and I can hear it, but you know, you're also quite different.

And I have to say that, that monologue, which you wrote, it's so very you. I want to just point out a couple of lines. Though we share formative experiences or primarily through my brother's lens, and informed by the accounts of others. Yes, that one, I like. There is just, you are a lawyer deep in your bones. Uh, I think that's very interesting.

Okay. Fair enough. I mean, I, look, I do, I do want to take just slight umbrage with how you've depicted my depiction of Dad. Specifically, I guess, that I've presented him as a rampaging monster with nefarious motives. I mean, yes, but I also think that part of this podcast has been about how my feelings towards Dad are complicated. You know what I mean? Like, if I really thought he was just a monster, I think this podcast would have been a lot less interesting. This is true.

You know, and it's difficult because I sometimes also lose track of what actually is making it into the podcast, or what actually isn't. I mean, as you know, we recorded quite a bit. Yes. And some portions are, I haven't necessarily heard or seen everything

that would be ultimately in the final product. In fact, I know the final product isn't finalized at this point, they're recording this. So, but I mean, we have had, whether it makes it in or not, I mean, some back and forth as to the extent to which, you know, dad's motives are discernible or like whether, you know, the whole idea of giving him the benefit of the doubt or not

as to whether, you know, he had some nefarious motive or not. I mean, that has been part of our discussion. And I think it's, you know, part of, I guess, the trend over the course of the podcast of should he be afforded the benefit of the doubt? Could there be alternative explanations that are justifiable or not? Right. I like that even now in the intro, Danny,

you can't help but present a different perspective from your brother. We're just trying to introduce this episode, man. Let me talk about your wording. We've got a whole interview to get to. Before we do that though, there was one other thing that might be interesting for people to know,

is how exactly it even came to be that you are on this podcast, right? There was, I guess I would call it a negotiation between you and Danny, and some restrictions were put into place. And so, I don't know, do you wanna speak to that? I mean, I kinda do. I mean, and I want to because it should be obviously

self-evident at this point for your listeners that my name has always been either bleeped out or omitted and I'm the brother. And similarly where I live and family. I mean, I'm sure people can understand that. For sure, yes. Danny has decided to put himself out there, but not everybody else has.

And I mean, it's certainly some of the other interviewees have perhaps been more over with their, you know, personal details than I have, but you know, it's important that I have dueling interests, right? I mean, I want to support Danny, but I also need to protect my family's privacy, my privacy. And you know, the reality is our lives,

however much is depicted in this podcast, there's a lot more. A lot more that is not. And some of it, actually a good deal of it may have impacted me in ways that I'm still working through and that I don't necessarily feel comfortable sort of having out there

in the ether. And I think Danny has been exceptionally respective of that and not wanting to, you know, step on my toes and do anything with respect to this podcast that could, you know, cause difficulty in our relationship. So I do want to like, you know, thank him for that, but but those three general areas are kind of what have formed the basis of, I guess, our negotiations. And yes, they have resulted in a legal contract. Yeah, you had said something to me that really stuck with me when we were kind of doing that

negotiation, which is the way you described it is like, I will be a witness, but not a participant, as I think how you described it is like, I will be a witness, but not a participant, is I think how you described it, is that right? Well, I think I've somewhat deviated from my original intent. Initially, my thought process was that, look, I will be here to sort of convey stories. Right.

And I wouldn't be necessarily giving much insight into what I thought of them, or how I felt about them them or things of that nature. Certainly not your personal experiences in terms of your journey with dad. Exactly, yeah. I mean, I appreciated that this was a journey that it was important to you that you describe

and that you work your way through and I wanted to help with that. But that wasn't gonna be sort of my therapy, so to speak. Yes, yes. I do think that there probably are areas in the podcast, having listened to the bulk of it at this point, that people might actually even wonder about. I mean, they might not understand certain transitions

or where was your brother during this? And you know, that it very well could be that that was part of the areas or some of the areas that were subject to the limitations. Yes, we are aware that there are gaps, but that's what we've decided to do. And from my perspective, also just entirely reasonable. If I think about the cross-section of humanity

and the number of people who would be more like you, Danny's brother, versus more like Danny, I think Danny is in the small minority of people who would be willing, interested, and able to go where you have gone. Crazy enough. You said it. But I also think that we have always

wanted to be respectful of your privacy. You are not a prop. You are a human being with a life and a family and a relationship with your brother that is extremely important. So we're so grateful. Yeah, I wanted to say to you, brother, without a name, that you being a part of this, honestly, I am.

I'm so grateful, even with all the restrictions and your very understandable hesitations that you said yes. Sure, no, and again, I mean, I can't emphasize enough how grateful I am that you guys have respected that. And I don't know if I've said it on the podcast or not, but as Bear is repeating, I know I've said it to you personally,

I am always happy, of course, to talk to you more about this even well after this podcast is over. Yes, and I definitely want to do that. Yeah, I think we absolutely should and it's exciting to me that we're going to have this conversation. Sounds good. And now a word from our sponsor. How to destroy everything is sponsored by BetterHelp. Darren, you know, I've been thinking about green flags recently.

What does that mean? Like, you know how there's red flags like, oh, stay away from that guy. Oh, oh, oh, yes. It's the opposite, right? Yes, yes, yes. Do you have any green flags for people in your life? Oh, yes, absolutely I do. I mean, I generally have a no-asshole policy in my life and I try to surround myself with

positivity as much as I possibly can. Obviously you're an exception, but you notwithstanding, that's my general approach. And you know, therapy can help with that kind of thing too. In fact, it's helped me. Like in my therapy, my therapeutic practice that I've had, I work a lot with my therapist about navigating relationships, the green flags and the red flags. It's been super helpful. Oh, interesting.

It's been super helpful. Yeah, absolutely. And you can have that kind of help too through BetterHelp, which is fully online. So it makes therapy both affordable and really convenient. And you know, you too can get that kind of help through therapy through BetterHelp, where you can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash destroy to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash destroy. Okay, so on that note of brotherly love, I think it's time we dive into the interview. So at the end of our last episode, we felt like there was a lot more to get into and the more that we talked the more these differing interpretations that you guys have became a central part of the conversation.

I guess Danny, I mean I don't dispute with you sort of the wrongness of a lot of his activities. I mean, it comes down to the interpretation of the reason why. Maybe, like, I guess my impression is that you might by default assume his stated reason is incorrect or false. Yeah. No, and I think you might by default assume his stated reason is truthful? Well, no, I don't necessarily assume it is, but I look at it more like, well, how reasonable is it? I mean, does it make sense? And if it does, and if it actually not only makes sense, but might actually be the most reasonable interpretation

for the action, then yeah, I mean, like, I'm more likely to accept that than I would something that would be less. I agree with that in a vacuum, but we're not dealing with it in a vacuum. Like so many times, because look, dad was a very smart guy. So he could provide an explanation for behavior that was seemingly reasonable and made sense.

But we have seen over and over again that those explanations can and have been lies, despite their reasonableness. So that to me, when I take it all in totality, that's where I get my perspective from. Yeah, but there's got to... So I guess the question is, is there a alternative reason that makes more sense? I mean, it makes sense to lie if there's an alternative reason that makes more sense

that he does not want us to appreciate. And in the absence of that, and where there is a legitimate reason that makes sense that he can convey, it just seems like it's more work to lie about it than just to say the honest answer. Well, but no, but he would often do more work to lie about something than to say the honest answer.

Like, let me say two things. Like for example, the story that I told in that earlier episode when dad lied, when I caught him hacking into my email account and I found the evidence of it. He told this lavish story about this kid that he was representing for the DOD and how he told him he was gonna break.

Like that took a lot more energy than to just be like, yep. No, and that was clearly bullshit. Yeah, but that's an example of, like I just don't think that's the rubric to say, oh yeah, well, which requires more energy. The other thing that was also, just real quick on that though, I will say, Danny, yeah, well, which requires more energy? The other thing that was also, real quick on that, though, I will say, Danny, that was a pretty extraordinary situation because he was kind of cornered.

OK, that's fair. But the other thing, though, I will say is we spoke to an expert, a psychiatrist who has an expertise in narcissism. And the narcissistic tendency for a sense of control over information can supersede any kind with the reality of what the threat actually was to somebody knowing his address. And he went, you know, how much time did he waste going to PO boxes? And I could just talking about a great deal of time and effort. Out of curiosity, what do you perceive as the threat he perceived? Well, you know, we've talked about that. I mean, I do think that there were times in which there

was a real threat. Like I I think probably he got worried at times about being served, like a process server finding him. And, you know, Mom talked, for example, about when she was dating him in Chicago and people would, like, slash his tires. Like, I think there were... He pissed off enough people that, like, he probably was concerned at times

that somebody would retaliate in some way. But I think over the long term, I'm not sure that those sort of like episodic threats justified in any way the amount of energy, time, and effort that he put into his privacy. What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, that all makes sense. At least the way I've envisioned it was that

the fear of always trying to make it difficult for it to be served was, was perhaps one of the initial impetuses. I could imagine at least some part of, in the back of his head, realizing that, you know, given how litigious he was and given how many enemies he was making and how many people, you know, actively disliked him,

it served him well for them not to be able to find him. Apart from service. Yeah. Maybe that feeds into the tires being slashed and whatnot, but that is important for self-reservation to not be visible. Right, right. Let me just interject back in the studio here for a second to say that something interesting was happening to me during these conversations with your brother.

I found myself starting to question, not everything, but some of the conclusions that we've drawn in the podcast. And so far as asking myself, are we sometimes misinterpreting Richard's actions? Interesting. As a case in point, we talked about the attic in the Royal Manor. Let me give you another interpretation of whatever you saw, the post at least. I can't speak to whatever the closed circuit stuff was. But if you remember the attic was like unfinished.

There were like these planks running the length of it, like a single blank. And on either side there was this pink, you remember, the attic was unfinished. There were these planks running the length of it, like a single blank. Yes, there still are. And on either side, there was this pink insulation stuff. And he also was doing things like having those speakers in walls and things like that. I can easily imagine him and Frank wanting to map out, all right, this is the specific location you'd have to go down through this pink crap to string a wire if you wanted to hook it into a speaker

for this room or for that room. So I mean, kind of having a map of that up there so when you're on that single plank running the length of the attic and you're trying to figure out where to string your wire, you can do that. Fascinating. I mean, maybe there's closed circuit

but it could also just as well be, you know, if you remember he did have, and this was an original feature of the house, there was an intercom system. So every room could speak and listen to the other rooms. And that was overt. I mean, there was no secret about that. Right.

Yeah, even on the front porch, right? I kind of remember you could be on the front porch and yeah, he would talk to you or listen. So this wasn't, yeah, I mean, to me, there wasn the front porch, right? I kind of remember you could be on the front porch and, yeah, you, he would talk to you or listen. So this wasn't, yeah, I mean, to me, there wasn't anything like this. Was that that aspect was was known. I mean, here's the thing, Gretzky, are you are you really questioning our interpretation of the attic after that? What I'll say is that we were always unsure about whether he had this video

surveillance system, you know, but I guess I was operating under the assumption that he did and talking to your brother has made me at least question that assumption. Okay, I hear that, but I also have to say that like I don't think my dad deserves the benefit of the doubt. Like so much of what he did was nefarious. So much of what he did was about obfuscation and secrets that I don't begrudge us in the slightest for assuming the worst.

I don't begrudge us either. Look, we're not a journalistic enterprise here. If we were, then it would be an issue because, look, your dad was bad enough based on the things we know he did. We don't need to embellish or speculate to make him worse. When you do that and you're wrong, it kind of damages the credibility of everything you say.

Yeah, I just think that we'll never know for sure if he was just creating an intercom system or, you know, listening in on our conversations. And given the totality of evidence covering, I don't know, his entire life, to me, he does not deserve any grace. I hear you. I hear you. And I have to say, I hear your brother too. All right, Switzerland. -♪ MUSIC PLAYINGan You know, we had this revelation in the episode

where we talked about my mom starting to date him. And she talked about in that episode how she believes that dad drugged her drink. And that there's another woman that she met that told her that dad did the same thing for her. And I'm, first of all, I'm just curious if you believe that or what your thoughts were on that piece of information. Um, I don't know. I mean, it was, I kind of had some reaction to you

with respect to Incredulity about her not responding the way I guess we would expect if we thought that somebody drugged our drinks. But- Yeah, but isn't that, wait, let me just interrupt. Isn't that though, like in a Me Too, in a Believe Women world, like, isn't that like akin to saying,

oh, well, if she was raped, she would have yelled. You know what I mean? Like, it feels like a little bit of victim blaming. No, no, not at all. Because there's a difference between saying, if you were raped, you would have yelled versus if you were raped, you would have intentionally decided you wanted to date

and marry the guy who raped you. Well, she didn't, but she, mom said that at the time she didn't necessarily think that he actually did that. Right, Darren, is that right? I can't, I'm trying to remember. Yes, yes, that is correct. Now she looks back and thinks he did, but in the moment she, I mean, obviously,

she must have convinced herself that it didn't happen or else I think she would not have kept dating him. Right, exactly. Yeah. But it doesn't, to me, her response doesn't negate what her belief is now, nor does it negate what the other woman told her. You know, it's hard to envision what's right here.

I mean, neither you nor I knew the guy at that time, and he was different then, I'm sure, in multiple ways. And I'm sure in many ways the same. But I have also listened to some aspects of the podcast in which you note, and it's noted by others that he will never take the first step in physicality. Right? Like, you know, it's always somebody else who attacks him

and he'll make a big deal about it, but he will not raise his fist. Right. In a way, this is akin to raising a fist. I mean, it is an assault, you know, putting some harmful substance into somebody else's body. Yeah. So there may be some inconsistency there

with him being willing to do it there, but not, you know, physically assaulting someone else in a different way. I will say that, I mean, he did in his house, he had plenty of cookbooks and he had books on mixing drinks and- Boy, that's really interesting because, and he didn't drink a whole lot either, but he had a lot of those kinds of books.

So it's entirely possible that this was, you know, a pet hobby of his that he had formulated some kind of drink that could, you know, had a lot of high alcohol content that didn't taste that alcohol-y. Well, but that's one interpretation. Another is that he put something in there. Sure. And I guess my question to you is, let's assume for a second that's one interpretation. Another is that he puts something in there. Sure.

And I guess my question to you is, let's assume for a second that it's true. Does that change anything for you in terms of how you think of him? I mean, sure. But I mean, I find the question kind of meaningless. Why? I mean, like, you know, oh, well, let's assume Danny Jacobs, you know, rapes somebody. Does that change the way I think of you? Oh, yeah, of course it does.

Yeah, so I find the question kind of pointless. Well, it's not because you're saying your hypothetical is one in which there is literally zero evidence of something happening. We have, yes, somebody saying that somebody told her something, but she believes that this occurred. I don't think it's a stretch to explore the hypothetical possibility that it actually occurred. Yeah, but the hypothetical possibility doesn't mean it happened.

I guess- I know. I'm just saying, I'm asking you to engage in a hypothetical for a moment. And I'm saying, if it's true, what does that do anything in terms of your understanding, your perspective of Dad is this shark and you can't blame a shark and you can't be angry at a shark. It's a terrible thing. If it were true that he did that,

I think there should be consequences, right? I mean, we live in a society in which there are rules, there are laws, and I would want there to have been consequences, you know, were he to break that law and, you know. So there's a difference, by the way, between being angry at a shark and being cognizant of the fact that we all live in a society and, you know, there have to be limits. I mean, even without being this way angry, there have to be limits. I mean, even without being this way angry, there have to be limits.

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I mean, I appreciate that. And I gotta say, I wear this, I'm wearing this thing, like an embarrassing amount of times. You do. I mean, it's become a basic part of my closet. I just love it. It's so comfy and cozy. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash destroy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's I don't know if I told you about the story of his pretending to be me. No, what was that? When I, well, again, I might as well just pull the man in here.

You know, as a lawyer, he had come to me on the phone and said, look, I have a situation. I need your help. And I'm like, well, what's the situation? He's like, oh, well, you know, this and I'm like, yeah, of course, you know, they're friends of yours. And you know, we had visited them when we were kids. Yeah, and had gotten into a car accident, and I don't remember who was at fault,

whether she was at fault or the other driver, but there was definitely gonna be some litigation concerning this car accident. And they had come to him and asked, hey, can you help us with this? And he said, oh, sure. Now, at this point, he was disbarred. He could not practice.

He asked me, hey, you know, I've got, you know, they've been involved in this and I've been discussing things with the insurance company and trying to work out a settlement and I may need you to make some local filings and I'm going to pay for that service. You know, knowing him and knowing how everything frequently turns to shit in terms of dealing with him, it didn't take me long to tell him, absolutely not. I will have nothing to do with this.

Mm-hmm. Well, you know, he was disappointed and he kept on harping on it for a while but I kept on essentially and unambiguously saying, absolutely not. I don't know how much time later, maybe two weeks later, I get a voicemail on my cell phone from a woman who is representing herself as a representative of an insurance company that is dealing with the accident. And she wants to talk to me and I call her back and I'm like, hi.

And she's like, you're Jacob's? And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, you're Jacob's? And I'm like, yeah. And she's like, you're not the guy I've been dealing with. And I'm like, no, I'm not. First of all, she was suspicious when she was dealing with whomever was representing themselves as me. I don't know exactly, he was being vague

on his address in my city and he had a PO box and whatever. And so she was trying to track down more concrete information and she came by my phone number and she had called me and we talked further and it dawned upon me that he was negotiating on behalf of the with this insurance company with her. And I guess she was an attorney perhaps

representing himself as me. And she's like, yeah, I'm gonna have to me. And she's like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna have to report this. I'm like, yeah, you do what you need to do. Next thing I know, you know, he's being investigated. Wow. By, I don't know if it's just the bar or... Wow.

Whether that went to the state attorney general or whatnot. And I'm getting calls from them saying, you know, investigators basically asking, you know, were you representing this in this? I'm like, no, and who was it? I'm like, it was my dad. And you know, and he's calling me, telling me, you know, oh, you need to tell them it was just a misunderstanding.

You need to, and I'm like, how is it a misunderstanding? And he's like, because I was sure that you would eventually agree to it. And I'm like, I was adamant, I was very unambiguous that I was gonna have no part in this. And he's like, but that's not how I remember it. And he's like, you don't know these people, they're very dogged and then once they have a bone,

they're just gonna keep on working it and you really need to tell them off and that it was a misunderstanding. I gave him some kind of an ambiguous response to make him think that maybe I would do that. But ultimately, you know, when they called me, you know, I was forthcoming and I was telling them, look, you know, he's my dad.

This is hard for me, to be honest with you. I mean, you know, you're asking me to essentially spill the he's my dad. This is hard for me, to be honest with you. I mean, you're asking me to essentially spill the beans on my dad, but I mean, I don't support what he did. And you know, I... You know, and this gets back to the shark thing, right? I mean, I didn't like end my relationship with him over this.

You know, he is who he is. You know, here he is, you know, violating me, violating my identity, you know, causing potential problems with my, you know, my bar, my job, you know, my reputation. Who the hell knows what? It's terrible. I mean, this is a major breach of my privacy

and my sense of self. And the thing is, I can be mad at him. I can know that his excuse is a bullshit excuse, but again, he is him. And that doesn't stop me from saying that there need to be consequences, right? I mean, like if he breaks the law and he's going over the line,

I am not going to defend him. Yeah. You know, for society's sake, I mean, and I love him, you know, but there needs to be repercussions and I can have it both ways. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Do you know what the resolution was in terms of like, were there consequences for him or?

I don't believe there were consequences for him. How is that possible? It seems so cut and dry. I can't put myself in the shoes of others. I will say that if there was some kind of legal criminal, whatever case that was being considered, I mean, calling a son against a father, like, is a risky move.

Right, right, right, right. I mean, like, can you depend on them to not pull punches? And especially if they are the, you know, the crux of the case, like the key witness. But I don't know. I mean, I'm not in a position to say. So going off of that, you're talking about the shark thing and how can you be angry

and do you want there to be consequences? I guess I'm just wondering, I guess I have two questions. What about other people who are injured by him? So what about your kids, for example, if your kids were to be injured by him? Or even somebody you don't know, some innocent person. Like, does that kind of lack of anger, are you still able to kind of have that distance?

So, again, it's a boundary issue. If my kid were injured by him, yes, my initial response would probably be anger with him. Depending on the situation, ultimately I would probably come away being angry with myself. You know, because again, in the shark analogy, like I put my child in a shark tank, right? I mean, or without proper protection. I mean, that's stupid. It's... But let's say you had found out that dad had sort of used your child's name and information to open up a credit card that he was using.

And it was like screwing up their credit. Okay. You didn't put them in a shark tank. The shark broke into your house, took information and then left and then started doing stuff with it. Like you don't have a responsibility for that, right? So what about that? What about it?

I mean, like, I think the shark is being the shark there. But you would be angry, your anger would be aimed at yourself rather than... No, no. No, I mean, that was not my... That was not what could I have done to avoid it. Yeah, exactly. Well, and similarly, I was not my, that was not, what could I have done to avoid it? Yeah, exactly. Well, and similarly, I also think though, Danny,

that your separation from him does not prevent him from doing those same things. Like, so- Totally. To the, he was gonna do what he was going to do no matter what, right? I mean, the question is simply, what is the best way to deal with that, right? Yeah.

One can become a ball of anger over it, but like, what does it get you? I mean, I don't know. I would be angry if he obviously just, you know, messed up my kid's credit. I would certainly talk to him about it. At the same time, I would also appreciate the fact there's nothing I can frankly do.

I mean, there might be steps I can do proactively to prevent further, you know, credit disruption. I could try to lock down all of my kid's credit scores and whatnot. I mean, and there were things in my life with him, like I proactively took some steps at various points to try to insulate myself from his sharky behavior. I mean, knowing for example, that he was capable of

and did hack email accounts, right? I mean, I had a joint email account with him. What does that mean? I mean, it was an email account to which we both had login information, explicitly. Like, I shared the information with him. I would use it. He would be able to see everything in it. And in my mind, if he felt like he had that window into my life. Wow. That he would, it might actually deter him from thinking that maybe I actually had a separate email account

that he needed to look into, which I did. Wow, you threw him some chum. I threw him some chum. And you know, knowing he's a shark, I mean, it's shark handling, right? Yeah. Do you think that that was successful? I don't know entirely. I don't know if I can know.

I mean, I think it might have had some degree of success. Yeah. Darren's going to pipe in here for a minute as the outside observer just to note something. This is what I do. It's my role in this conversation, which is that Danny, I feel like you have a real objective here in talking to your brother. It's like you you want something from him. You want him to I don't know, like to to to see things how you do to to react how you react to condemn your father in the way that you do.

And it's interesting, I don't feel like there's a mutual or rather a countervailing objective of the other side. You know, like I don't feel like your brother necessarily wants you to see things in his way. Do you? I don't know. No, I don't have a particular motivation to have you adopt my way of looking at it. If you could, it might make life easier for you mentally,

I don't know. Not to say that I don't have my own sort of psychic harm from my experiences growing up with him that may be different than yours, but yeah, I'm not coming at this with an agenda to somehow persuade you of anything. Danny, am I right about you though? Well, no, I don't think you are.

Here's what I'll say. Look, one of the things that I took from growing up with my dad, and I actually do enjoy, is an exploration of ideas by testing them in argument. And I think what I am searching for is I am testing whether or not, like I am looking for some sense myself of like, were the choices that I made in regard to my dad the right ones?

Was there other things that I could have done? And I think the way that I'm trying to figure that out is by pushing my brother and seeing what his justifications were and how those kind of stand up or don't to scrutiny. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm not trying to, but I think it's wrong about what you said is like, I don't think I'm trying to get my brother, I don't think I'm trying to get my brother to, well, I don't know, maybe I am on some level.

I don't know. I didn't think so before, but I have to say the conversation today, I felt that more. I felt this yearning from you to hear. Maybe it is what you're saying, which is this, because that would justify your choices if there was some acknowledgement of that. And if I'm wrong, if my brother is right, then if there was another way for me to handle this, then did I just lose my relationship with my dad for no reason? You know, those are the stakes.

I mean, was there another path that I could have taken that would have enabled me to continue a relationship with him? Yeah, I'm just having this thought based on, I'm going back to your question, Darren, about if I have an objective here. I think I'm realizing that maybe something that is underlying this for me is I still have a lot of anger towards my dad. And there may be a part of me subconsciously

that's like, I want to be angry too. That's what I'm hearing. Why aren't you angry? Yeah, and I understand what you're saying, but I'm just like, come on, what about this? What about this? What about this? Dude, that's what I'm feeling.

That's why I asked it, because I feel like you had this list of questions, and each one is you're like, how about this? Doesn't this make you angry? Doesn't this make you angry? And it's like, it does, right? And you're not getting exactly what you want. No, no.

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Rocketmoney.com slash destroy. You know, there's also something, I mean, I'm an unusual specimen, so to speak, but I think some of the way I am is a result of my upbringing too, in terms of sort of the almost emotional burnout. Mm-hmm. Nowadays, it's funny because our kids,

it's not a big deal to impose a screen limit on their screens and in fact, the app's allowed for it. You can say, I don't want this kid to be able to watch more than two hours and it will turn itself off after two hours. Yeah. And they're used to that and that's part of, I don't want this kid to be able to watch more than two hours and it will turn itself off after two hours. And they're used to that and that's part of, I guess, societal norms. Back then, you know, dad, if you recall,

maybe you don't, maybe you do, every single electrical socket in his house was rigged to a master controller. And if he wanted to punish by turning off the television set, he could just turn off the power to the television set and it would not have power. And that would be his unhigh way of imposing his will

and showing his displeasure and trying to get us to do what he wanted. I very much resented that and was not willing to capitulate to that kind of manipulation and I would refuse. And I mean, he would escalate to the extent that he could escalate like, okay, well then I'm not going to take you to soccer practice.

I'm not going to, I mean, you name it, whatever tools he felt like he had in his toolkit that he could throw at me and deprive me, use as a deprivation, he would. And in my mind, the response was never to give in because giving in would just perpetuate the process. Giving in would just mean that it worked and the next time I'd have to give in again

because I showed myself to be weak. The only acceptable response was to refuse it and become essentially ascetic. And to basically meet, I mean, if that meant, you know, for hours on end, because I was grounded and had no electricity to anything I could care about that had electricity or, you know, couldn't leave the house and whatever,

if that meant hours on end, I would just be sitting there on the den floor, staring at the ceiling. That is what I would be doing. I kind of looked at our two choices, the way that we both handled dad. We both think we didn't give in, and we both think we didn't give in in different ways. You didn't give in in that way,

but you sort of surrendered your emotional, certain kind of emotional connection. I didn't surrender that part, but I surrendered, I didn't give in, and I surrendered my relationship with him. Because when you're talking about, oh, I can't give in, I can't give in, I was like, I was thinking in my head like,

yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. When I kept on like refusing to give in about like allowing him to continue to hack my emails or to do all that stuff. Like I was thinking, yeah, that's my perspective too. No, I mean, I think that that, it may be the way you're posing it is right. Maybe it's an either or.

Yeah. I mean, there is something to say for the fact that, everybody who's not like me in that way, you know, their tendency is to follow the same course you followed, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, again, I'm a little unique in terms of how I adapted. I also don't think... I want to just sort of offer some grace here. Like, I don't think there is actually a right or wrong way that either of us dealt with this. I think we were just trying to survive a really difficult circumstance.

And whatever allowed us to do that, God bless. You know what I mean? Sure. But I just think that the way that that just really struck me when you were talking about that. Do you think when you're talking about those like power struggles, do you feel like, do you feel like some part of your childhood was stolen? Like, like you weren't able to allow to act like a kid? Because like when you're describing, it doesn't feel,

obviously it's not a typical parent-child dynamic. And I'm just wondering if you feel any loss of, of what it means to be a child in some way. Because I feel that. Yeah, no, I mean, there's no question I did not have a normal childhood in order to you. And I don't think it was just that power dynamic. I also think it bled out into the divorce. I mean, there are all sorts of things that disrupted normal childhood development, unquestionably.

A few minutes later, Danny asked his brother if he ever felt exhausted by the relentlessness of dealing with Richard, and also if he ever lamented the fact that it was impossible to have a normal relationship with his father? The issue is, I mean, he was who he was for so long in my mind that like, I guess I never even envisioned or could imagine anything other than what we had. Yeah. That was our relationship and that was what he was capable of.

And the idea of him being more capable of having other kinds of relationships or conversations just was not, that wouldn't be him. Radical acceptance. Yeah. Do you think that that has affected the kinds of conversations you have with your own children? No.

I mean, in what way? Well, I don't know. Like whether I'm replicating it, replicating my relationship with him? No, I am assuming not. I'm just, you know, listen, part of this podcast is just like me exploring the ways that I am conscious of and unconscious

that having dad as a father is affecting me. And I'm like, I don't know the answer for myself either, but I would think that it has to have some effect on how I relate to my children and have those personal conversations. I don't know what that effect is, but I'm just wondering if you have any insight. Yeah, I'm not 100% sure either.

I mean, I think my conversations with my kids are very different than ones with my dad. But I mean, to be honest, I mean, some aspects of the discussions with my dad that I enjoyed, I mean, like as we've discussed on unrelated topics to our personal selves, I mean, I very much enjoyed those with that. And I have sought to engage in a similar way with my kids and have them enjoy the conversations also like on passions. No, that's a great point. One of the things that I took away from that, that I employ today is like,

I really do enjoy a kind of a back and forth kind of argument where you're kind of dissecting ideas and kind of finding weaknesses. But it's funny because my wife gets annoyed by that. As is mine. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, Katie will be like, does everything have to be a point counterpoint with you?

And to me, like I find pleasure in it. You know what I mean? Yes. So you have that same experience. Oh, she hates it. Oh my God, that's so interesting. That's so interesting that we were affected in that same way.

We both have wives that have the same negative response to it. Danny, your work husband sometimes gets annoyed by it as well. Not to the extent of your wife. I don't know actually, but I enjoy it here and there, but it's pretty persistent, I'd say, with you. Pretty constant.

And there are times when I'm just like, oh God, now we shall see who will prevail, I guess. Yeah, it's to the point where I don't even know sometimes that I'm doing it. It's so ingrained that I don't even know sometimes that I'm doing it. It's so ingrained that I don't even recognize consciously that I'm doing it. Yeah, well, I mean, at least, I mean, in my profession, it is helpful to be in my profession because,

I mean, it's a useful skill. Well, sure, totally. But, and hers and in other people's, I think it's treated differently. I know this from, you this from millions and millions of conversations with Danny over the years, is it's very rare that I can make a point and Danny will just concede it.

Concede is the wrong word, but just sort of like rubber stamp it. There's always, well- Qualification. Qualification, exactly. And it always, well. Qualification. Qualification, exactly. And it happens, but it's rare. And that is also true for both of you. So you guys, a lot of times in the back and forth,

not saying that you don't ever agree, because there are a few times, but most of the time, yeah, there's some qualification. There's like, did you, well, yes, but blah, blah, blah. But let me, I would say it in a slightly different way. Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, some of what, you want to talk about it, I guess possibly being affected by dad.

I mean, I think that might be a result of our attempts to sort of maintain our agency and maintain our independence, right? I mean- Oh, yeah. Oh, that makes sense. We grew up with a very, very controlling person who obviously would expect complete compliance.

Well, I mean, maybe he can get us to do one thing, but like, you know, we're carving out a little bit of a nuance that, you know, well, that is our own, you know? Yeah. And I don't know, you know, it rings through, but I mean, I can say that, but I still believe in those nuances that I carve out as being justified, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just that I think other people might be like, well, that nuanced carving out is probably just not worth it to mention because what difference does it make? Right. And for us, it's sort of like everything. Yeah. By the way, this also connects to me

back to that idea of the lesson that your dad imparted to you, which is to ask for what you want and to try to get what you want. Because I think a lot of people are on the other side of this, which is that they are so, let's say, confrontation adverse, not that this is necessarily confrontational, but it's a little bit, you know,

to qualify and to push back is a form of confrontation. And they're so averse to that, that they will not get what they want. They will swallow it and just internalize it and take it basically. But I think you guys, you know, no, you're gonna carve out the nuances of what you want. And that if that requires

a modicum of confrontation and a little bit of a back and forth, well, that's, that's the price to do in business and maybe even a little bit fun. BedMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA, has your back all season long. From tip off to the final buzzer, you're always taken care of with the sports book born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BedMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BedMGM. Download the app today and discover why

BedMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BedMGM, a sports book worth a slam dunk, an authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only, please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns

about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hi from the studio again. So Danny, one question I have for you in listening back to this is, you know,

you talk a lot about how you like to debate in a general sense, which I can attest to. But in this conversation, you had an agenda. We got into that to get your brother to say that he was angry. That feels different from your usual debating, isn't it? Yes, I think so. I realized that I had that agenda with my brother. I didn't know that going in. I didn't know that that was what was happening. It wasn't like planned. You weren't like I'm gonna get this

to happen but it just sort of emerged that way. Yeah I could feel myself kind of getting frustrated during our conversation and I don't know I didn't know why until that became clear. I feel like you know whether it's your mom, your brother, like you consistently want people to express that anger. I am baffled that I'm the they seem to be the only one that's mad at my dad. That's something that's come out of doing this podcast that has really been just astounding to me. Are you still mad at him right now?

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think so. But I'm starting to question whether I should still be. Like, everybody else seemed to not be, so I'm like, am I doing something wrong? Are you the crazy one? Yeah, I don still be. Everybody else seemed to not be, so I'm like, am I doing something wrong? Are you the crazy one? Yeah, I don't know. I do.

I still feel anger towards him. Do you want to still be mad at your dad? Whoa. No. I don't think so. That's interesting. That's a really interesting question. And I think that finding a way not to forgive necessarily my dad but to

release some of that anger I think is a real ultimately I'm starting to come to the idea that that's that's a key to me in terms of moving on I don't know how to do that but I have this instinct that that's what needs to happen. I didn't mean to take us so far from this conversation with your brother. Let's get back to it. So a little bit later, you steered the conversation in another direction. Yeah, I asked my brother if there were any moments that he could recall when my dad displayed genuine emotion.

I was wondering if that had something to do with what Dr. Josh had said back in our How to Destroy a Therapy Session episode, you know, about how your dad couldn't really love you in the way that we think of love. Well, listen, I think ever since then, ever since that episode, ever since that conversation, this idea of what was genuine about my dad has been at the forefront of my mind. Oh, same. So I was really fascinated in my brother's answer. Oh, same. So I was really fascinated in my brother's answer.

["The Last Supper"] But I will say, I mean, you know, you've mentioned in an earlier episode, like moments of seeing him cry, right? Or at least the lack of moments of seeing. I mean, this, every single time he is addressing anything concerning his own death, he gets tearful. Wow.

I mean, another instance, not, not death related, but you know, where he, when, when he realized what, what Sandy was trying to do in terms of converting us, you know, I remember a time where he put us in a car. I'm trying to remember if you were there, if it was just me, I think it was both of us and you know, he was driving us to a church and he was like, your mom wants you to be Christian, I want you to see what it's like. And he was in fact, like on the drive,

I was sitting in the passenger seat and on the drive to this church that he wanted us to experience, he was crying. And I don't know if it was for show or whatever, but I mean, he was emotional about experience, he was crying. And I don't know if it was for show or whatever, but I mean, you know, he was emotional about it. Wow. Yeah. Well, in his conception of the afterlife, we all take our form as the most sort of ideal form

at our prime. So like- Oh really? He explained that to you? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Oh, wow. And he actually believed, it was kind of almost a sense of reincarnation, that you end up going into the afterlife,

you're reformed as you were in your prime, and you can spend time with your loved ones, like either they're there that pass over, but also you can interact in the real world and try to pull in favor of those you care about and, you know, or be a spirit guide for others. And ultimately when you reach a point of like, I don't remember exactly what the trigger point was,

but it could be thousands of years, you get reincarnated. Wow. You really had it all thought out. You really had a whole. Yeah. He really had a whole... Yeah. -♪ MUSIC PLAYING is going to think of this? And I'm curious, what are his thoughts? What does he take from it?

Well, again, he's only listened at least at this point to one episode. So it's limited. I guess I haven't had a fulsome conversation about what is his perception. But in advance of that, he has already understood dad to be eccentric and like a Larry David figure. I mean, my kids love grandpa stories.

I mean, that's what we've called them is grandpa stories. And they're all Larry David-esque stories. There are some aspects to some of the things you've mentioned experiencing like the shame of growing up with that and the self-consciousness perhaps of like sort of being the kid of growing up with that. And the self-consciousness perhaps of being the kid of this guy. When my kids are expressing, you know, oh dad, you're embarrassing me.

I kind of scoff at it. I'm like, you think this is embarrassing? Do you really think this is embarrassing? I mean, you don't know how embarrassing. And I launch into a grandpa story about, you know, that must be like, must be like for anybody, any kid sitting through this kind of situation be like just horribly embarrassing. And I'm like, you need to, you need to suck it up.

And you need to like, I went through a hell of a lot worse than this and I'm still around and, and, and this is a lesson. I trudged up hill both ways in the snow. Absolutely. And, absolutely. And look, you can tolerate this and I'm gonna show you can tolerate this. Wow, you know what is so fascinating about that is that I do the exact opposite.

The moment that my children express to me any kind of embarrassment with what I'm doing, I am like, you got it, done. And I stop immediately because I am so sensitive to that feeling. I remember that feeling and the difficulty of it and I don't want them to experience that. That's really interesting.

For me, it's like, I tried to get at least my eldest into Impractical Jokers from an early age. And I love that, I love that show. No, I do too. I like that stuff, yeah. And I mean, to me, part of that is because what they're doing, it's an inoculation against embarrassment. It's like- Totally. To the extent that I can get them

to sort of adopt that mindset that like, you can be crazy, you can do whatever, and people are gonna laugh and forget about it the next day. It's not gonna affect things in the global sense. I wanna foster that in them. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, it is one of the reasons why I'm such a huge Andy Kaufman fan,

and I'm such a huge fan of Nathan Fielder. And I'm not, I love in art that feeling of awkwardness and uncomfortability. Absolutely. But I just, yeah, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I also hear what I'm saying in terms of why I've chosen to react the way that I do with my kids. The other thing that I will say that's so interesting is like, and this is something that I really want to process and think about, but as you were talking about these grandpa stories with your kids, like,

I have told my children almost nothing about dad, almost nothing. There's a part of me that I'm, like, scared to in some way. Like, I'm so scared that, like, whatever it was that he had will sort of somehow filter down to them via these stories or something like that. I don't know. I just don't know. I don't know if I've figured out how to do it. Because, like, to me, grandpa stories, as you put it,

like, that it feels as you put it, that feels half of what it was. And maybe in a way, this podcast is my way of figuring that out. The podcast is how I'm going to, to me, it encapsulates those Grandpa Stories as well as the darker, harder parts of being Richard Jacobs' son. It encapsulates your message for them at some future point?

Yeah, in a way. It's the most fulsome encapsulation to me of what he was. The positive, the bad, all of it. I mean, that's fair. And I don't dispute, I mean, you're right that like grandpa stories is only half the story. And that's, I mean, not at all the full picture. I guess from my perspective, you know, dad is, was a very important relevant part of my life. And like, I didn't want to sort of relay like just this void that is bizarre because that's not normal to have a void.

I mean, the guy was not dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, for sure. But at the same time, it's kind of like the equivalent of war, right? I mean, like if somebody's at war, how much do you tell your child about that? And there's ways to convey certain aspects that they can appreciate that isn't so violent

and isn't so terrifying. And I think to the extent that they're capable of appreciating grandpa stories fills at least some gap in the history and in the understanding of the relationship that they're able to perceive and appreciate. And they're not untrue. Right, right. I mean, whereas like as my son is getting,

or kid is beginning older, and he's able to understand more the complexity of people, then that can get filled out. Yeah, no, I have to say I'm really swayed by that. That's really interesting. I mean, look, it's a little different because dad was still alive when your kid was born. Both of my children were born after he died, so there wasn't that same kind of void or, you know, push-pull going on. But I am swayed by some of what you're talking about in terms of how to kind of introduce them to the idea of who he was.

Danny, have your kids ever asked about Grandpa, about your dad? Not really. Interesting. A little bit. And, you know And based on our conversation, Darren, I think I did tell them, because Darren and I had this conversation about, Darren didn't realize, I had told my kids very little about the podcast,

just like that I was doing a podcast about my dad. And that was kind of it. But I did tell my son, I explained to him the idea of like people that are mentally sick. Yeah. That was partly what we were talking about. You each have in a way continued your respective choices. Danny to cut him out of your life and your brother to keep him a part of your

life, even after his death, the beat goes on. Oh man. That's true. That is true. Wow. Fascinating. Interesting. the beat goes on. Oh man, that's true. That is true. Wow, fascinating. Interesting. Well, listen, let me just say, since we're wrapping up,

that I just, I really appreciate your willingness to do this. I know that there has been a lot of concern on your part about being a part of this podcast in general. And this will not be the last conversation about all this that we have. My intention is for us to continue talking about it all, not for the podcast. And I'm very grateful that it has jump-started that conversation. And it has also helped me to get a better sense of you and myself. So that's what I want to say.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, and while I was certainly initially reticent to be a part of it and, you know, having heard some of it and how you're how you're dealing with it, I mean, I guess I can appreciate to some extent nuance. Yes, but I guess I can appreciate to some extent, to some extent, to some extent. Nuance, yes. But I guess I can appreciate to some extent. To some extent. To some extent. This is beneficial to you and to the world at large.

Obviously, it's it. And I think you appreciate it. It's not the way I would necessarily deal with my feelings and thoughts and progress concerning that. But for sure, I do appreciate your sensitivity to that. So yeah.

Well and given that by the way, it is clearly not how you would and do deal with yourself with your dad. So your willingness to participate is really... Magnanimous. Magnanimous and appreciative and I think demonstrative of your care and empathy for your brother, which as an observer, I see a love between you guys. I mean, I feel like I've gotten to know you through these conversations more than, you know, ever before. And it's interesting, right?

Because you guys are brothers and Danny has been my best friend for so long, but I feel like I didn't really know your relationship that well, but I do now. And it's, you know, it feels from my perspective, like that relationship has advanced through these conversations and will continue to in conversations offline. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

All right. Well, great. I love you very much. And- I love you too. We'll look forward to an offline relationship. Now, the truth is, we talked so much. There was so much more that we couldn't even fit into these two episodes.

Yeah, and I think with my brother's permission, we'll eventually release some of that onto our Patreon. So if you want to be a part of that conversation, head over to patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. But before we wrap up, I do want to go back to something we were talking about before and have been talking about a lot with regard to letting go of your anger. This is just something I really want to hone in on

as the season is now kind of barreling towards its conclusion. And that is just kind of checking in with you as we sit here today, Danny. Where are you at, not just with the anger, but I mean, where are you at with this whole question of why you're even doing this podcast? Ah, yes. I mean, listen, I still go back and forth on it

in a lot of ways, but what I will say in this moment, right, where I'm at, is just in thinking about the podcast, look, at the start, okay, it was very much fixated on the past, and then with the interregnums, the present as well. Yes. But I think that over time, I guess I'm starting to realize that it's becoming more about the future. Right? As in my kids.

You know, I don't know, I'm just, I'm wrestling with what I wanna say to them about my dad. Like, how to end the generational trauma, yes. But also just like how to tell them the story of their grandfather and thus the story of me, you know? Yeah, that's very interesting. I think that if I'm being honest, the story of their grandfather for me

did get a little bit more complicated today. I'm not gonna say that your brother got me to like completely empathize with your dad. No, far from it. But I will acknowledge that I feel a little closer to empathy than I did when we started these conversations. Your brother has a way of seeing like the inside of your dad's perspective.

It's kind of humanizing him a little bit, which is kind of ironic given how much time we spent calling him a shark for a force of nature. But the effect of it is that right now, I'm seeing Richard as just ever so slightly less monstrous and more damaged. Interesting. I don't think I agree. At least I'm not willing to go there yet.

I mean, I think that yes, you know, you're saying, oh, my brother has this be able to get inside my dad's perspective. I'm not sure that that's true. I think it might just be his perspective, my brother's perspective. True. Then again, your perspective might just be your perspective. What is truth? What is, what is fact? We will answer that by the end of this season. What I will say is, after these conversations is that I could certainly

use more information. Well it's funny you should say that Danny because more information is exactly what you're going to get because we're gonna do something a little unusual here. We don't normally tease the interregnum on these episodes but we need to because we have something that is going to be a doozy for you next week. Yeah, and I think we should just let the clip kind of speak for itself. Yeah. So here's the clip from next week's Interregnum. Okay. So a little while back, I was visiting my brother and his family. brother and his family. And as we've mentioned on the podcast before, my brother had all of these VHS tapes and these videos of...

A treasure trove, is I believe how you referred to it. Yes, of films that my dad had made. And I found one that made me literally gasp. Let me just pipe in here to say that you took a picture of this and sent it to me and our producer Michael Grant Terry. And on the VHS label, handwritten, in your father's handwriting, it said, I believe, to my darling son Danny, to be viewed upon my death. Love, Dad.

How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky, executive produced by Michael Grant Terry and edited sound design and music, supervised by Dashiell Reinhardt and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry. If you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell please reach out to us at I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com. Additionally if you would like to support this podcast please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything and of course you can find us on Instagram and blue sky as well how to destroy everything is available on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown

Los Angeles.