How To Destroy Everything - Episode 16: How to Create Something New

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Wherein Danny returns, at last, to the scene of the crime(s). Danny (alongside Darren and Sandy) go back to his childhood home, The Royal Manor, and Danny confronts his past head-on. In this, the season one finale of How to Destroy Everything, old feelings will burst to the surface, the ghosts of the past will be reckoned with, and the future will become all the more clear.  Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We now prepare to return Richard Jacobs to the earth. Let us remember that while his body rests here, his impact on our lives remains eternal. In our tradition, we do not say goodbye with silence, but with words of praise for life itself. We join together in the Mortar's Kaddish. They join together in the mortar's qadosh. Danny? Danny? Are you alright? It's just everyone's acting like he was some kind of decent person or something. What was it you called him? Troubled rabbi?

I mean, if that isn't the biggest euphemism I've ever heard, I don't know what it is. Well, Danny, the Torah in Leviticus encourages us to forgive, not to hold on to- You know what we should do? We should be honest, okay? You can't really expect me to forgive someone who's dead, alright? He's dead. I wouldn't expect you to do anything. Your father just died. It's an incredibly difficult thing to-

I know, I know, I know. Okay? But it's not difficult. It's pretty easy, actually. He's been dead to me a long time. I...I...I understand. It just... I only want the best for you, Danny. Yeah. And I really wouldn't want you to carry any lingering resentments. Well, I won't. Because he's gone. I don't have to think about my dad ever again.

One day, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, Danny and I were in his car when I noticed an unusual kind of stain splayed across his windshield. When I asked what it was, he casually explained, oh, someone threw another milkshake at me. Another milkshake. Let's unpack that for a second. First of all, I've been driving for multiple decades and I've yet to have even a single milkshake hurled at me. But Danny, our boy Danny, has inspired this particular aggression on two separate occasions. Now when I pressed him on it, Danny actually saw

himself as the winner in these confrontations because while he merely had endured a chocolate or strawberry stain on his car, these fools had missed out on their milkshakes. I feel like Daniel Plainview and there will be blood here. I have a straw. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Danny was and remains Richard Jacobs' son. For good and for bad. And on the bad side, what we've uncovered in this podcast is a lingering, simmering, perhaps toxic anger. Now look, it's an understandable rage really considering everything he went through.

Yet I can't help but think that the key to Danny's healing may be to somehow, some way, figure out how to let it go. My name is Darren Grazki and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my best friend's dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is the Season 1 finale, Episode 16, How to Create Something New. And now, introducing my co-host on this journey we've been on since late 2023, Mr. Danny Jacobs! Woo! What's up?

Wait, 2023? Is that it? It feels like 1923. What year is this? I don't know. But you know what, I do stand by what I said about all those milkshakes, by the way. Like, all I had to do was get my car washed, but they lost their milkshakes forever, Darren. Let's not pretend like you ever bothered to get that car washed.

OK, OK. That is fair. But I also want to push back on calling my anger toxic. Like, it's not like my anger towards my dad has held me back in some way or made me enemies. I don't even think people that know me would describe me as an angry person. No, that's true.

I guess I didn't mean toxic in that way. I think I just meant that maybe it's toxic to you. Oh, oh, wow. Uh, yes. But I think I'm also, I'm not even talking about necessarily your anger. More about the fact that, you know, as you said in episode 14,

you seem to want everyone else to be as angry at your dad as you are. Is that not good? To demand of others the same emotions that I feel? That feels appropriate. We're not here to say what's good or bad, Danny. It's bad. Is it? I don't know, look, I think this whole, you're kind of overblowing the whole thing, that feels appropriate. We're not here to say what's good or bad, Danny. It's bad. Is it?

Look, I think you're kind of overblowing the whole thing, to be honest. Am I? Am I, though? Let me play some clips for you, Daniel Jacobs, from some interviews we've done, some of which have aired on the podcast and some of them haven't, in which your anger has bubbled to the surface,

often because people were not reacting in the way that you wanted. All right, let's hear him. I just think what I think is fanciful is the idea of what you just said, that this is in the past. I don't think any of it is in the past. I think all of it is right here in the present in how you and I are talking to each other

in this very moment. That's like, it's affecting us in ways that we don't even realize. It starts to be like, wait a second, am I crazy here? God, I'm so fucking pissed off. I'm pissed off. I'm just pissed off that even now, everybody in my family is like, worried about everybody else. I'm the one that got attacked here. And then everyone's like, oh, can you just be careful that it's upsetting this other person? Like, what?

What are you fucking talking about? I have no intention of responding again but I felt the need to respond this is very painful to me maybe try having some empathy for me. I'm like what the fuck man. Yes out of the blue. Out of the fucking blue and nobody is concerned about me this is exactly what my childhood was dude. You were just holding it all. Yeah I was holding it all and nobody gets that even now. It's not fair. It's not fair that you should have to hold it all for everybody else. Everybody else's feelings count too, but so do yours. Yes, yes. I don't understand why nobody else is fucking angry.

Okay, back in the studio now and you've heard... Wow, wow. I mean, yeah, okay. Let me just say, hearing that back, it's like... Oof, I can feel my seething rage. Yes, but I don't begrudge you. Having gone on this journey with you, I get it. I get why you're angry, and I honestly don't think it's crazy to feel that way. I appreciate that,

but man, it does come up again and again. It sure does, it does. Okay, but my question is, how do I do it? Like, I've acknowledged, all right, there's an anger issue here, but how do I find a way through that anger into whatever is on the other side? Well, I do have an idea about that, actually.

So you and I have talked several times about how different our childhoods were, but one thing we have in common is the loss of our dads. Very different circumstances, obviously, but still, loss is loss, and a father is, well, obviously a pivotal relationship. Yeah, your dad died of cancer when you were how old? 22.

Right. Yeah. And in my case, I know for a fact why, as hard as it was, I was able to find some closure there. So when I got the call that he was going into the hospital and we knew that it was going to be the end, I was able to fly back to St. Louis. My sisters were there with him, my mom, obviously,

cousins, aunts, uncles, and a lot of my dad's friends. One by one, they came in to see him. And in a weird parallel to your Australia trip, I was furiously taking notes, writing down everything everyone said, including my dad, in a way, just so I could sort of deal with what was happening in the moment, but also so I would remember.

And then I got to talk to him, and let me read you what I said. Oh, wow. You're going to do that right now? Yeah. Hang on a second here. Oh, geez. I said, Dad, it's OK to let go. You don't have to suffer anymore. You've done so much.

And my dad responded, I can't fight anymore. I need to let go. I'm sorry. I said, to let go. I'm sorry. I said, it's okay. I love you. I want you to feel peace. And my dad said, I love you too, forever and ever. And that was it.

And when he died, of course I was devastated, but I also felt peace. Wow, that's amazing. Now, if I had gotten a call that said, my dad was gone, just like that, I think about this all the time. I don't know how I would have handled it. I feel for people who get that call,

like, you don't get to say goodbye, you don't get to say whatever you need to say, and I kind of think that's you here. You know, you cut your dad off after that lunch with Katie, and then you never really talked again. And then he died. You never got to say goodbye, you never got to say anything. It just ended. Okay, yeah, that's really interesting.

Yeah. You never told me that you wrote all that down the day he died. Well, we're both sharing things now publicly on the pod for the first time. Welcome to my world, Christy. Oh, man. I will say, I have felt a tiny degree of what you're talking about with Karen. Oh, really? What do you mean? Well, okay, I guess just to catch people up first, I had a very intense argument with my anonymous family member

who we're calling Karen. It's been an ongoing thing in this podcast. And she told me that I am incapable of truly loving anyone. And in response, I said that she will die alone. Yes, I remember it well. And then recently, though, you made the decision to send her another text. And what did you say? Well, here, I'll tell you exactly what I said. I said, here it is, I just wanted to send you a text to say that the last text I sent, particularly the part where I said you will die alone, was too much and I apologize for

that. I didn't want that to be the last thing I ever said to you. I don't expect that you will reply to this and that's fine. I wish you well. Wow. Okay. Good for you. And did she respond? No. But I realized that that doesn't matter. Because since I sent that text, my anger towards her has actually dissipated somewhat. Like, sending that text somehow made me feel some closure. And I felt better about it.

I didn't need her to respond. Yes. See, that's really interesting. It's like how, you know how psychologists say that when you smile, even if you fake it, it actually does improve your mood? I feel like you kind of forced yourself to smile textually speaking. Yeah, that's right. But with Karen, she's still around. I mean, even though she didn't respond, I could send her the text.

With your dad, you got to have one more conversation. With mine, that's not an option. Yes, but isn't that what this podcast is? A conversation with your dad in the only way you know how and in the only way that you can. Wow. Yeah, yeah, I guess that's one way to look at it. And now look, we're heading back to St. Louis.

We are going back to the Royal Manor and this time you're coming to, back into your dad's home, back into this place where you will for sure feel his presence. Here's what I think you should do. I think you should write him a letter and read it out loud. Oh, oh God.

Oh God. That literally made me shudder just now in absolute terror. I hate that idea so much. I cannot express to you the degree of hatred that I feel towards that idea. Sure. Which, um, god damn it, which means I should probably do it, huh? Look, that's not for me to say. God damn it, Grodzki. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it.

Listen, only if you're sure it's a good idea. Stop fucking asking me that. I'm doing it. God, as if I wasn't dreading this trip enough. Good, good talk, good talk. Okay, but listen, before we go, there is one more person I want us to talk to. How to Destroy Everything is brought to you by Mint Mobile.

Danny, do you say data or data? I say da-oo-da. God, you're a weirdo. I don't know that anyone else says that. At my house we say data. And for the longest time I thought that paying like a ton of money on my monthly data plan was just what you do. But that was until I found out about Mint Mobile and their premium wireless plans that actually start at 15 bucks a month. Yeah, so we got Mint Mobile for a dedicated line for our show, and man it has made a huge difference. We needed it for all the kind of interviews and stuff we're doing, and not only has the quality of the calls

been so much better than our old provider, but it's so cheap too, compared to what we were using before. In fact, like in my house, we're thinking of just moving all of our phones from our old provider to Mint Mobile. Yeah, because you can actually use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and you can bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. So say bye to your overpriced wireless plans, jaw-dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. No matter how you say it, don't overpay for it. Shop data plans at mintmobile.com slash destroy.

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Hi, you all. How you doing? We're trekking along. We're doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. Now, Mom, we are talking to you just about 48 hours before you and me and Darren

are going back to the Royal Manor. And I guess Darren and I wanted to check in with you about this upcoming event and see how you were feeling about it, good, bad, ugly. I'm a little bit afraid, but also kind of very, very curious. And I'm feeling pretty good about it.

What are you afraid of? Just, I don't know exactly. I still don't know what I think about everything, you know, at the time that I was going through it. What do you mean, ma'am? Well, some of the of the people that you know weren't that nice to me some of them And then the ones that seemed like they were nice like it are not coming I I think if just just just as like for what it's worth I think that this podcast has shown Me and I and I think he would say that it's shown you as well,

that talking about this stuff ultimately is better than not. That's true. So I would just, you know, obviously it's up to you, but I would encourage you to go ahead and bring up your feelings about what it was. I mean, I think that's what we're doing here. You know what I mean? We're going back.

Yeah, but it's just kind of embarrassing that I was so naive at the time that I didn't even consider that they didn't didn't want me to come because of Richard. Do you still care what they think of you? Do you still feel that embarrassment? I probably do. I do probably a little bit, you know, but the thing is, it's, it's so long ago, it doesn't really matter. Yeah. Exactly. Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So I don't know, maybe you go in there and, you know, you be you and if they they like it great and if not, Yeah, that's probably right. That's probably what I'll do. Yeah. Danny, Danny, how are you feeling now as you're about to set foot back in the Royal Manor? Um, I think this is good.

I think that the, also I think that the possibilities for some kind of closure here are really attractive to me. Yeah. Just a full circle kind of thing. Not just from where this podcast started in episode two there where you went back, but just from where this podcast started in episode two there, where you went back, but just from my experience growing up in that neighborhood. Yeah.

And, you know, we talked a lot in that second episode about that realization that I had that I grew up in the Boo Radley house. Yes. And I think it would be nice to maybe have an experience where I don't necessarily feel that anymore. I think that makes sense. You know, I mean, I think that that childhood that you had that was really a childhood robbed from you, centered on that house.

And for you, Sandy, so much was taken from you also centered around that house. I mean, this is the house that Richard lived in until he died. Everything that he was doing, tormenting everyone, was centered in this house. And for us all to go back there now, probably one last time, right, in your lives,

and have this warm gathering, I think, has the potential to close the door on a lot of that. And yeah, maybe there's something about exercising demons and having a happy memory in that house as the last memory. Yeah, I think so. I think that'll happen. Yeah, at least for me. Yeah, we'll see.

I hope so. I hope so. All right, Mom. Well, we look forward to seeing you. And I'm really excited and nervous. But that's what this podcast has been. Yeah. I love that you two are going in together. I think that's what this podcast has been. I love that you two are going in together.

I think that's really lovely. Yeah, I do too. Yeah, it feels. Hand in hand. Yeah. So, Danny Jacobs. Yes sir. We are currently sitting in your mom's car

outside of the Royal Manor. Real stalkers. Also, I feel like you and I sat in a car outside of your dad's house as children. I'm sure. One time it was after the Blair Witch Project and I had to keep my headlights on. Very scary.

So how are you feeling? We're about to go in. I'm terrified, Darren. Yeah. I was just thinking that the last time I was here was right after he died, and I feel like at that time, I was sort of really kind of closed off to him and this whole thing, and you know what I mean? I was just sort of emotionally very separated from it,

and now I've realized I don't know what it's gonna be like. Because you're a glass case of emotion now. Well, I don't know about that, but I've just been going through something, and I just don't know about that, but I am I've just gone through something going through something And I just don't know where that leaves me here, and I and I feel with all the build-up to it I feel very very frightened Is there any part of you I'm sorry to be insensitive to your fear is there any part of you that is Excited in a positive way no not even a even a, there's no part of you.

I don't think so. I'm feeling a great deal of dread. Yeah. Alright, well, let's go face your fears. Okay. Alright. I mean, is it weird though to show up someplace with a recorder already on? I don't know.

I mean, it seems strange. When they open, you can maybe say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, look at that. Oh, there's the windows are open, which they were never opened in my years. Abject paranoia and fear. Yeah, and also cardboard on the windows. Okay, guys, you ready?

We're getting the moms. I'm fine. Are you okay? Do you need help? I've never been in. Oh, you've never been inside? I've never been in. Oh, you've never been inside? Mom has never been in this house. Okay. Well, you go first.

Look at this door. Oh, the door is lovely. Lovely door. Lovely door. Okay. Did he have a red door? Uh, well, that sounds familiar. I don't remember. But there was a screen on it and everything. You got it? Hi! Oh!

How are you guys? Hey! How are you? Hi! Very good. Sorry we're late. That's okay. We had to record outside.

I'm recording now. I'm Abby. Nice to meet you. It's good to see you. Hi! I'm Abby. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much for you. Hi. I'm Abby. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much for having us. Of course.

Okay, so we're back in the studio for a second, just to give you all a sense of the order of operations here. So the neighbors from episode three pretty much all came back, plus a few others. And it was essentially a potluck. I mean, everybody literally brought food. Yeah, and for the first hour or so we really just hung out eating and drinking which gave me and my mom a chance to meet everyone and explore the house and so forth.

Whoa. How does it feel walking in? It's so surreal. So what you're gonna hear now is a selection of moments from the party as Danny was walking around carrying this mic around the house. Yeah, and that mic, by the way, was a real lifeline, I gotta say. Oh, really?

Yeah, I mean, it was my little blue blankie. I held onto it like my life depended on it. Oh, and dear listeners, I apologize ahead of time for how many times you're about to hear me say the word wow. Oh man, oh wow. Oh, yeah, let me take a look. Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow.

This is, the backyard is, wow. There's a big pool and there's a beautiful jungle gym for kids. Whoa, this is so nice. It's gorgeous. Yeah, it is such a mind fuck. Wow. Wow. I was just like my mom. Sleepovers.

Wow, this is wild guys. This is wild. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's, that's frightening. That's not a bad thing. No, I mean, you know. Familiar.

Yeah. I'm not familiar. Can I see your garage? Would you guys? He's all the way over there. Yeah, he's a mess, but I go for it. OK, thank you. Oh, man.

Wow. This looks like a house. Man, that's wild. I mean, this is the same floor. So I'm stepping on floor that my dad stepped on. And I did as a child. Did he ever have a car in here? Yes, not on this side, but on that side.

He would always park in that side. It would be covered, huge piles of boxes and shit, all the way to the ceiling, all the way around. It was like a nook for his car there and then on this side he had a big like carpentry table and stuff no no no no no just junk junk junk junk junk okay wow wow dude holy moly just checking in here I've viewed the whole house and it's like I keep on seeing ghosts of myself running around or yelling at my dad or crying. There's the stairs here that I remember he chased me up when I threw his steak to the

ground one day when he was making dinner because I was so angry at the weird food in his house and he chased me all the way up the stairs to my room and I was the one time I really thought there would be something physical going on if he had caught me which he didn't and then I called the police when I got up into my room and I'm just imagine I'm just seeing my dad sitting in this chair in the piano room with his newspapers as I'm playing the violin and I'm Seeing the table that we'd have dinner on and I remember this little black-and-white television in the kitchen That was playing entertainment tonight showing the first footage of the upcoming

Jurassic Park movie and I would watch in black and white because I was so excited about it Then of course, there's the living room where I spent so much time. I'm staring at the floor where my computer, our first PC jr computer was and I would play Leecher Suit Larry and Land of the Lounge Lizards and King's Quest and Space Quest with my brothers. My dad would sit on the couch in the far end. I would sit like two feet from this television. I watch so much TV right here, right where I'm standing. It's fucking bizarre. God, it's fucking bizarre, man.

In this space, I'm in this space. It just, it is, it is out of body. How to destroy everything is brought to you by Everyplate. You know, Danny is, it is out of body. How to destroy everything is brought to you by every plate. You know, Danny, one of the reasons that I rarely cook at home is that I don't think, well, you said it buddy. But I also find that to make anything decent, you end up spending a lot of money.

You know, if you want it to be as good as it is at a restaurant, you're not even saving all that money. And then I gotta cook it myself and I'm not as good as you say. Yeah, but when you use every plate, you get restaurant level deliciousness week after week with recipes like crispy Buffalo ranch chicken and cheesy Mexican street corn hash.

In fact, I gotta tell you, I tried every plate and I had these beef banh mi bowls that were like, they had carrots and pickled cucumbers, sriracha, mayo, like they were stellar. And I actually have been thinking about them more than I care to admit ever since. You've got me thinking about them just right now from having said that. And the thing is, is that you made that at home at a low cost. You'll spend less on these flavor packed homemade meals

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New customers can enjoy this special offer of only $1.99 a meal. Go to everyplate.com slash podcast and use code DESTROY199 to get started. Apply at this discount on First Box limited time only. Mom, I only lived here, right? You guys didn't live somewhere with me prior to this. We lived, no.

No. Right, but I was born here. Yes. Where did you live with? It's like an apartment. We had, he got kicked out of there. He did? Yeah.

Why did he get kicked out of there? I think it's because somebody some reason the police came. I was like, why? He ran upstairs and was hiding in the bathroom. And I told the police that he's not home. And they said they had to look. So they looked, but he was hiding in the tub with the curtain. And they didn't find him, so he came down.

And I never found out why he was hiding from the police. You didn't ask him after the police left? Well, no, because I didn't have to do it. Yeah. So I ended up finding out that if you call the police on you in the condo, in the apartments, they have a right then to catch your lease. So then they spent many months trying to serve him with papers to get him out. He hid. He took his car and he hid and he would walk home from some place so the car wouldn't be there. And then finally they followed me and they put something under my car.

The police did it? Yeah. That's a joke. Yeah. Well, I don't know. The police put something under my car so they could track me and they ended up serving me. No, I found out when I was served. Oh, you were served.

It's crazy to me that I can still find out all these new stories after all this. Well, here they are all these years later. Yeah, wow. Two wonderful sons and wives and grandchildren. Oh my gosh. And a very strong lady here who went through a lot. No kidding.

How can you survive? You don't know how strong you are. I feel it. Oh, thank you. You know, I mean, again, I was so much older. I just wrote them really nice kids. Which is a miracle. You can thank the mother over there.

Yeah, I mean, I think all that we were talking about this is all the stories that we created about Mr. Jacobs. After the Say Your Podcast, I'm like, you were so far off. You know, like we had... What were those stories? Just like, oh, he has cameras everywhere and he's spying on all of us. He's with Keith and Ian. Like we created the... Sorry, buddy.

Because he was quirky. We just, you know, we thought he was quirky. I don't think I was ever afraid of him. Like the mad scientist's dentistry. There was something very poetic to me about this warm family, this gathering of people and you and your mom, here, your dad, gone, in the home that he wanted to create,

and essentially failed. Yeah. Mom, do you have any memories that are coming back for you? Yeah, I can picture your brother being in here, then looking in there, and there was the bed. Yep, the bed's in the same place, yeah. And then I can picture this woman just being right there. I was supposed's in the same place. And I like to think that this woman is being right

that I was supposed to be my special place. Yeah. Oh man, I'm walking down the hallway now towards the unfinished room. Hi, this is a room? Was this here? What? What? This is a room? Yeah. Was this here? I don't see a room we've all. What? Yes.

What? This is a room? This was here the whole time? Yeah. Was this here the whole time? No. Are you sure? Wait a second, we had those two.

Well come look at them, mom, it's not that big. Well look, it's connected to, was that a closet? Yeah. Mom, come here. This could have been here, because look, there was just so much stuff. It was here. I think it was here.

Yeah. Yeah, this one makes five. One, two, three, four, five. Junk. Dad didn't use it. I didn't even know it was here, because I just kind of saw past it. I assumed it was a closet, I think.

I never went in. OK, you were just about to walk into the bonus room there, and I want to stop for a second to highlight that there was a room in your house that you did not know existed? It's pretty remarkable. I mean, I lived there until I was 18 years old, so it's a real testament, I guess, to my own tunnel vision and the utter mess that my dad lived in. I will say that since we got back to LA, I've had some flashes where I remember a closet there.

Not like an actual room though. And that's because I never actually set foot once in that space. It was so filled to the brim that you couldn't even walk in. So honestly, I couldn't even tell how big it was. I never knew. Still unlocking mysteries all the way till the end. Yeah.

So now we're about to shift to the next phase of the evening, when, just like we did way back in episode three, everyone gathered in the bonus room and sat down for a slightly more formal conversation. But first, I'm wondering if at this point, having hung out all this time, did any of that tension that you were feeling dissipate at all? I mean, I guess wondering if at this point, having hung out all this time, did any of that tension that you were feeling dissipate at all?

I mean, I guess to a degree. It did in that everybody, and I mean everybody, could not have been nicer. Yes. Like the group was so sweet and welcoming, so that was definitely a big help. But at the same time, I knew I had to read this goddamn letter still,

so I never really unclenched. What can I say except you're welcome. So Danny, you're back in the Royal Mander. Yes. Surrounded by all of these wonderful people. We've had a little bit to drink. Yes. Have you had a little bit to drink?

Yes. That was a very quick yes. How are you feeling? Good. Well, a very quick yes. How are you feeling? Good, well, weird, terrible. Good, weird, terrible. No, it's very, it's bizarre. I mean, I feel very strange. I feel like this is sort of an out of body experience.

I feel like, thank you all for making this happen and for being so supportive of the podcast and me and Darren and my mom, but it's bizarre. It's like I'm traveled in some kind of Alternate, you know multiverse, you know what I mean where it's the exact same physical space But it is a hundred percent different certainly not whatever it is is not what I was experiencing Yeah, so we we arrived you went into all the rooms. Yes. The Lancaster children so graciously

allowed you to go into their bedrooms. Yes. Where you once lived. To varying degrees of being OK with it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I was talking with someone about the idea of how I would love to go back to my childhood home,

but that would be a totally different experience. Yes, it's very bizarre. Time feels like it has folded completely in on itself. Do you feel your dad here? Yeah, oh, for sure. This space, it was his domain. I mean, he controlled this. It was for like 35 years or so, right?

Like early 80s to 2015. He patrolled these halls and haunted these walls for over three decades. Sandy? Yes. How are you? I'm doing fine. Oh, that's good. How is this feeling for you? It feels good.

It does? Yeah. You know, you were nervous. At first I was nervous. Tell us why you were nervous. I guess because of meeting the people. What about, what do you mean? Say more.

These monsters you're talking about. No, no. No, I can see it's great. Well, what do you mean? What do you mean? Just remembering how it was back then. How was it? Kind of lonesome.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like that now. And just like the rooms aren't the same. You know, everything's different. How was it? Kind of lonesome. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not like that now. And just like the rooms aren't the same, you know, everything's different. And it's very joyful now, you know, full of family and everything. I was talking to you in the laundry room downstairs about how, whatever year that was, when you guys moved in here, you moved into this house, I'm sure envisioning a lifetime here.

You had two young kids or were you born yet when you moved in? No, so you had one young kid and then, you know, eventually Danny and like, you probably envisioned, am I right, something like this, just a loving family growing up in this house? Yes, yeah I did. And obviously-

Well that didn't happen. It did not happen. Yeah, well, yeah. There was a story that you were telling downstairs. It was about the shower, the baby shower. Oh, yeah. Can you tell that story? Okay, one of the neighbors was pregnant.

Okay. And the other neighbors were gonna give her a baby shower. And I wasn't invited to it. And I didn't realize, I mean, I guess I realized it, but I didn't really think about that it was because of, right around that time is when Richard was arrested for those stealing by deceit and whatever he did. And he stole documents from the courthouse.

The courthouse, yeah. So, and then he stole all the newspapers from the neighbors so that they wouldn't read the newspapers. And then so I was friends with one of the neighbors and the one who was actually pregnant and having the baby. And she had a shower with her family and I was invited to it because I was pretty close to her.

But I wasn't invited to this other shower. But naive me, you know, I didn't realize that it was done on purpose. Cause I tend to believe people. And so I called whoever the one was giving the shower and I said something like, I think you forgot my name on the list of the shower. And then they said, she said, oh no, you went to the other shower.

So I figured you didn't need to go to this one. Did you feel generally kind of isolated here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because the neighborhood was so friendly and I wasn't really used to that. When I was growing up in my neighborhood, people kind of kept to themselves.

They weren't really like joining each other and doing things like this group was. Is there anybody here that you felt like they didn't like you? But you know, the thing is, I can't really remember. Yeah. Generally, did you have that feeling that you were not liked?

I did, but then I had to realize that it was not really me, it was Richard. Yeah. But you didn't realize that at the time? No, at the time, I thought the lady just forgot. No, but I mean, when you were here, did you think that the neighborhood did not like you? Yeah, I guess so.

Because I was married to Richard. Yeah. Yeah. Even more isolating. And mom, didn't you have a story that she came over to tell you that we were not allowed to play together anymore? She came over one afternoon and she said, the children can't play together anymore

and we can't be friends. And she didn't tell me why. And I guess I didn't do anything to stop it. And I feel bad about that. I wasn't invited to that shower either. Oh, awesome. Okay. I'm on mute.

I get it though. I feel like when you're in life, when you're dealing with someone, let's say weird, like Richard, a lot of times you're like, I just don't want to deal with him. And you don't think about his wife or his children and the feelings of isolation that they're going to have by this choice, this understandable choice that we all would make to be like, let me just avoid that. By the way, it's not your I had to worry about all of that. No, but I mean, one of the things

that I've experienced making this podcast is sort of really understanding the human collateral damage of someone like Richard and just how far it extends. Cause yeah, I think it's a reasonable choice to say, I don't want to deal with him. Yeah. Unfortunately that makes-

100%, it's not worth it. Why would you? why would you- But to have some sort of level of empathy or understanding or something, I think could be learned from this. I don't know if anyone has any new thoughts, memories, reactions, you know, things that you want to say or express.

You do not have to, but I wanted to offer that chance for anyone. Yeah, Fran. I just have one thing to say, Sandy. I wish I had been older and wiser. Yeah, absolutely. I feel very badly that you felt ostracized. It absolutely was not you.

Yeah, I know. I hope you know that. I do. Yeah. But I wish I had been older and wiser. I'm so sorry. I feel terrible. I really, really do.

But honestly, I don't know what could have been done differently. You know what I mean? For Sandy, I may have tried to stay and be your friend again. Right. Right, right, right. I mean, you played together a little bit

at each other's house, but I'm not sure why it was stopped. And it's a shame. I don't even remember that, that I came over sure why it was stopped. And it's a shame. I don't even remember that, that I came over and said that to you. I, but you must've said to tell her that they're not come to come over. I don't know why. No. And I didn't know what,

I didn't know what to say then. And like Fran, I'm very sorry. Yeah. Oh, don't worry. Yeah. Because it was just, it was, it was hard because, you know, Richard got mad at us. I think I told the story the last time because it was just it was it was hard because you know, Richard got mad at us. I think I told the story the last time because he was angry with the builder that had taken the wiring out that he had put in. And we had a small dinner party and he was very excited and angry and using proof.

The right foot to get your relationship started on. Right. Yeah, he was using a lot of profanity. And we were young and Don didn't want me embarrassed and it was very strange. And so that set us off in a wrong foot, unfortunately. Of course. He put everybody in awkward positions. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, oh yeah. It was a specialty. And I'm sorry, but you reap those benefits. Yeah. Yeah, I really am. It's okay. I got out of it and then I was doing okay. I always thought, what a strong woman you were to have left a situation.

I always felt pretty proud of you. Oh, you don't know the truth. Thank you. I really did. No, you did. I really did. How to Destroy did. I really did. Oh. Aw. How to Destroy Everything is brought to you by Quince.

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Your annual trip to... Juneau, Alaska. Oh. No, actually going somewhere warm. Oh, great. And that's why I'm excited about Quince because I am gonna treat myself to some of those lux upgrades Yep with quinces high quality travel essentials. I want to get some some light shirts some shorts Yes, I'm gonna go and bask in the Sun. Oh, yeah, I'm very excited

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Quince dot com slash destroy. Um, anyone else? No one has to, but if any other? I think I admire Danny. Or can we pass, let's pass. Pass you the mic. Yeah, especially if anyone has any stories to start with, I think I admire Danny for both. Let's pass you the mic. Yeah, especially if anyone has any stories to start with, I think I admire Danny.

Please, just don't be shy. One more mic, just in case. Obviously I admire you, but for the work that you've done to come this far with such a horrific story that you've walked, I mean, that's really profound and so brave of you. I remember on one of the podcasts, you said that you were six years old

and you're walking to the bus and you realize, ah, he's sick, that's right. And to have that insight at six years old and to have to carry that, to know that your dad isn't physically ill where you see an impairment, but you know his brain is not working like everyone else's, That's heartbreaking. Yeah.

I'm sorry you had to live through that, but look what you've done with all of that pain. I'm just I'm really impressed and proud of you and I wish you the best moving forward with this healing. But you've obviously done a lot of hard work. It shows. Thank you. No, I appreciate that. I just have one quick thing. Yeah.

I think you're tremendously brave. Oh, thank you. That can't be easy to come back into this house, and especially if you were dreading it, and you made yourself do it. He kissed it from his mom. And psychologist right over here has just said, you're a rational, reasonable person.

And I think she's absolutely right. And I hope this has helped everybody that's connected with this. I hope it's healing the wounds that we caused back then. Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say that you caused any wounds. Weaved bridges or perceived wounds, we're still, there they are.

There they are. believed bridges or perceived buildings. We are still, there we are at that. Yeah, there they are. Yeah, we- And I think you guys are such helpers in such like community and have always been. Yeah. Right. You know, that you feel the missed opportunity or the fact that you couldn't.

Like once you slip into the cracks that you couldn't fix it or you couldn't. Yeah, everything is easier in hindsight or you couldn't include it. Everything is easier in hindsight. Just be a part of it. Yeah, sure. No, because we have this vision of Fran, and I mean, this has just been our life for 45 years.

And we have such a bond, and I'm sorry that you weren't in that. And we just were too young, I guess. And it was just so strange. It was. We've been busy with our own lives. Yeah, of course. It was just so strange. It was busy with our own lives. Yeah, of course. We really were. Yeah.

And, uh, and... Especially Fran. Yeah, so many children. Yeah, so many. Other than seven kids. Yeah. Seven kids. And Richard just tilted the scales for us

Yes. that we didn't know how to balance. Listen, I have two kids, young kids. If there was somebody like my dad that lived in my neighborhood, I would be staying as far away, don't go near that house. I would tell my kids, I would be like, just walk across the street.

Absolutely. But Danny, did you ever, like we played baseball in my backyard incessantly for the entire summer. Yes. Did you ever see us playing? Yeah and go Mean you're the your old of our age. Yeah, that's a great question. That's my wife's good No, I mean ha as in like why? Why am I not out there?

No, I didn't honestly and it because they just felt like being in this house There was such a gulf between me It just felt like a whole different universe like it didn't feel even possible You know what I mean? Like I know I was only pretty like 30 yards away, but it felt like 2,000 miles like it just felt like I would look out that little window in our den And it would just be like looking like watching a TV in some other place you know I mean so wouldn't have even occurred to you it did not even occur to me that that was something that was remotely possible

That is so sad. It is because all the kids I mean what we have 50 kids a lot of kids it just did all kinds of things together and never even thought about it. Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't either for that reason. No, no. I didn't think that it was- Did you guys ever talk about, like, Danny, were you aware that Danny was-

It wasn't even a conversation. No. It wasn't even like a- No. Yeah, I think we were on different planets. I have a seven-year-old. Kids are kind of clueless. Yeah, I don't think anybody ever thought to exclude you.

No, I don't think so either. I think it was, they also didn't think to include you. Yeah, I- To be honest,. I think it was, they also didn't think to exclude you. Yeah, I know. To be honest, when your parents got divorced, I really didn't think you were here that much. Yeah. Because you were probably inside. Yeah, it's hard to tell.

It was hard to tell because all the windows would be boarded up. Yeah, that's true. It was just the cardboard and sheets were. They all had window sheets. But I remember seeing you. It was a scrappy second basement. It was a great second basement, yeah.

I remember seeing you on the driveway a couple times, and I do remember when you came back after your dad passed you and your brother were outside briefly. But that's really about it. I don't know that I could have told you what you even looked like back then. Yeah, and likewise, I felt like ships passing in the night, it just didn't feel like we were in the same place. So I never felt, the positive side of that is I never felt excluded.

My parents have had a lot of time on their hands lately. At first, it was nice. Hey mom, can you drive me to soccer practice? Sure can. We're having slow cooked ribs for dinner. It was awesome. And then it became a lot. Some friends are coming over to watch a movie. Ooh, what are we watching? I'll make some popcorn. Thanks to Voila, they can order all our fresh favorites from Sobeez, Farmboy, and Longos online, which is super reliable. And now my parents are reliable. A little too reliable. Voila, your groceries delivered just like that.

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One night my husband and two other friends went out to dinner and probably had too much to drink. And we came back and we danced in the backyard for the cameras. We had too much to drink. We had too much to drink. So we called to your dad, you know, and took our picture, here it is.

Wow. Yeah, not so long ago. There's probably film of you somewhere. Somewhere. I wish we had checked it. Yeah. They're hilarious. Yeah.

We probably got sold those pictures. We were guilty of that. Do you know if he was home? We assumed he always was home. Yeah, right. It's impossible to tell because the windows would have been covered with bedsheets. He just didn't interact with us at all.

After the night at the house when he yelled and stuff, he didn't have much to say to us. And all the time when he'd come home and back into the garage and open the door and shut the door, it was just, you know... I would describe it as just a void. A void, yeah. I was thinking the same way. It was like not having a neighbor.

Yeah, it was like that.. You should acknowledge that space. Yeah, that's interesting. Daniel, just being here, is there any part of you that misses the good parts of your dad or some of the positive memories? Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. Because we're focusing all on the crazy, you know, weird stuff, but there's got to be like a... Well, yeah, I mean some of the memories that have come to me since I've been here have been positive. Like just little things,

like when I used to play piano or violin downstairs and my dad would sit there and read his newspaper and listen to me play, like that was entirely positive. And our first computer was a PC junior and it was on the floor of the den downstairs and my dad would like teach us about the computer and then in the kitchen my dad would teach us about ham radio and I remember all those things. Well that's so interesting about Richard right is that there are some parents where you have no

good memories because they didn't spend any time with you but Richard actually did spend a lot of time with you and did do things with you. Yes. He was not an absent father. And wanted to. Wanted to. Yeah. In fact, even as you got older,

Danny told me not that long ago that Richard always would try to create these almost like Hallmark father-son moments. Like he would want Danny to go down to The Boathouse at Forest Park. Those paddle boats. When I was like 20 coming home from college, he's like, let's go paddle boating.

I'm like, dad, no. The 18 year olds college don't generally don't want to go paddle boating with their parents, maybe? No, but it's, yeah. I mean, yeah, you're seven, right? He was trying to hit some vision of something in his head that he was trying to create that wasn't comporting with the reality around him.

Yeah. But that's what complicates it a little bit. Yeah, because there's something positive in that, in the middle of that. Well then I think you kind of answered the question if you don't mind me imposing, about whether your dad loved you or not. I don't think you can ask an expert about narcissism

or mental health. I think you have to trust your own experience and trust your feelings on how your dad treated you and those positive memories and hold that dear. Don't worry about what anyone else says if they're capable or not. You felt loved. Was it healthy?

Was it always within bounds? No, but that's not the point. He did love you in his own capacity. Yeah, that's very insightful. And I think that that's totally right. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think that that's totally right. Yeah, that's really interesting. I've been trying to answer that question as if there's some objective truth to be found and it's almost like whatever the real answer is, is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what the book says, it's what you felt in here. Yeah, that's interesting. My mom's a therapist, if you can tell. Yeah, that's interesting. My mom's a therapist if you can tell. She's working today. He had an illness that was causing all those interactions not to be processed in the right direction. It wasn't totally his fault, I don't think. Yeah. Oh no, no. Yeah, he wasn't in control. Right, that's true. I don't know if it's anybody's fault. No, I don't know that in the time in which

he was growing up and got worse, that people recognized this is a mental illness. Yeah. And therefore, we pay more attention to all of that today. Yeah. Which is good. Yes. Be more understanding.

And he was an adult by the time it totally manifested itself. Yeah. And who's gonna say, you need a therapist? Yeah. And would he listen? Well, yes. Yeah, yeah. And the other thing I've gotten from this podcast

is Danny, I think you're a very loving father who's chosen wisely in a wife who sounds super good for you and in love with you. And kids are lucky to have you for a dad. That's so sweet, thank you. Oh, and you for a grandma, Sandy. Yes. Oh.

That didn't mean as an afterthought. I know. I know. How is this all feeling for you, Mom? Feeling really good. Yeah. Is it? Yes, it is. Good, good.

I hope so. Can you say more? I kind of want to get people's telephone numbers. Oh, yeah. That's good. I was hoping we'd all go out to lunch. Yes, okay. We will do that.

And if you're in town, you still can't join. Yes, that's totally fair. No, we will definitely do that. Absolutely. Yeah, with my kids. No, we will definitely. OK. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Very. To see like what communication does, like to see your smile and your glow sitting. Yes. And comparing it back to the first or second episode, we're like, well, they wouldn't they wouldn't let me come back. They wouldn't welcome me. And that was just, you know, this communication and not knowing and all the things that happened. Like that's beautiful.

Yes. The other thing I think you should know is this house is now in a loving, loving normal. Yes. It's a normal house. Normal. Normal's pushing you. Jeremy is a little bit, I'm not sure about Jeremy, but.

I mean, it about Jeremy, but. I mean, it is filled with laughter. And lots of wonderful things. And your dad probably would love it. You happy about that, Sam? I'm happy about that. You said his dad probably would love it. I do think that his dad wanted a loving family home.

He didn't know how to do it. And something quirky would go on, and he'd think he needed to be the master. So this went on for a while. It was a truly wonderful conversation. And obviously, throughout, I was trying to observe you. But also, I kept watching your mom and While she was quiet for a good deal of it

The thing that I noticed was that she had this like really really big smile going I mean all the way across her face ear to ear and I realized something which is that I Don't see your mom smile like that very often. Oh, that's really interesting You know like I think she like most of the time she has a like a little smile or a neutral expression. That's her expression. But this, this was like, I don't know, man, kind of a real joy, a smile that I had not ever seen from her. Yeah, I think coming back there was really healing for her. Like, it was a wound that had been ignored for decades and decades. It was, it was so great to see. It was, it really was. And then it was finally time for the moment that you'd been dreading. We have struggled with trying to figure out the end of the season of the podcast. Just trying to

figure out what is one of the ways in the finale to close the book on all of this. And one of the ideas that we came up with, especially when we realized we were coming back here and seeing all of you guys and Danny was gonna be here, was to have Danny write a letter to his dad, which he has done. And if you wouldn't mind, maybe he could read that letter now.

How you feeling? Ready to do that? Yeah, okay, okay. I mean, no. But I'll do it. I'll do it, okay. Okay. Can we go back to saying how brave we think you are? Yeah, speaking of bravery. Wow.

So you made me think of it, Mom, because you're like, what if Richard were here right now? So. Yeah. That's really something. I wonder if he would do this. Okay, here we go. Are you okay? Dear Dad, Oh, God damn it, I just started.

For so long, I've struggled with what I wanted to say to you. Here goes. I'm sitting here in the bonus room above the garage in your house, the royal manor, only it's not your house anymore. You've been gone 10 years now and there's a wonderful family living here and the house is full of warmth, love, and as far as I can tell, absolutely no listening devices whatsoever. Even though all your spyware and modifications are long gone, I still very much feel your presence in this space. Over there, you used to sit at

your typewriter banging out missives saying, God knows what to God knows whom. I remember as a little kid wondering what you were up to in here. Absolutely certain it was something important and special, and I would tiptoe around all the papers and boxes just to get a glimpse, hoping to solve the great mystery of you. It took me a while, but eventually I figured it out and the answer was devastating, that this room was your mad scientist headquarters, the place from which you would dream up all the trauma

that you'd unleash on the world. Beyond that wall, just on the other side is my old bedroom. And every day when I left for school, I would mark on the floor the exact placement of my ajar door so I would know when I got home if you'd been in my room or not. I cried in that room, Dad, a lot. I cried because it felt so unfair,

and I cried because I was so, so angry, and that anger has followed me throughout my life. Like it or not, you have been instrumental in shaping the man that I have become, in some bad ways, but also in some good, and as a result of you and in spite of you. But one thing that is abundantly clear to me is the anger. I realize now that the secret reason why I said yes

to this podcast in the first place, why I agreed to the public airing of all this private drama is to, thank you, is to expose myself to the world. To expose myself to the world, it's because I wanted everyone else to be angry too. I wanted mom to be angry, and my brother. But even more than that, I think I wanted the whole world to be angry too. I wanted everyone to rise up in righteous indignation and to join me in my red-faced, closed-fisted fury. I could never seem to make you understand,

but maybe if I could make others get it, I would finally feel a sense of justice. Only now I've come to understand something. I don't want to be angry anymore. Ultimately, I know that a part of you was sick, a big part of you, but I also believe that a part of you was not. And I think that the part of you that was not struggled

with the part of you that was, and I think that the part of you that was not. And I think that the part of you that was not struggled with the part of you that was, and I think that the part of you that was not tried to love me in the way that I needed to be loved, to protect me in the way I needed to be protected, but couldn't because the part of you that was sick wouldn't relinquish control. And given all that, I know what I need to say to you. all that, I forgive you, Dad. I forgive you for all of it, for all the pain and the heartbreak and the endless hurt. I forgive you and in that forgiveness, I hope to find peace. What happened next was one of the neighbors actually suggested that your mom go to you and...

Give him a hug. No. He needs that. She did, walking over to where you were sitting on the floor and she got down there with you and just hugged you. Thanks, Mom. Yeah.

It was really something, man. That was beautiful. And I wonder if, for you, was it at all cathartic? It was. It was. I mean, it was hard. But when it was done, I felt this immense wave of relief. Oh, man, I don't know. I don't know. This is, um... I don't know. I just pray that you can have some peace.

At first, I thought, just to be honest, that that was maybe just because it was over. But when I reflected on it later, no, I think it was more than that. It just felt right. That last sentiment in your letter to your dad, that he did the best he could, where did that come from? I think that was actually something that my own therapist said to me recently. Oh.

That got me thinking about that. Because I had never considered that as a possibility. Yeah. I've never heard you express that before. Do you think your ability to get there and to like feel that and believe it could not be related to your kids in any way? You as a father now having children. Oh wow, Jesus Christ.

Wow, I think that that's pretty profound. I, yeah, I think that's important. Like I think about my fears about parenting in any way that reeks of a whiff of what my dad was. And I think it's really important that I have a radical acceptance of the fact that I am my dad's son, and that there may be times, there may be moments when that fact comes to the fore,

and I say or do something that is reminiscent of him. But I think that telling myself that I am doing the best that I can is really essential as a parent. Yeah. Wow. I mean, to bring that back to what we've talked about from the beginning here in terms of like, are we trying to find a degree of empathy for your dad? I don't know if that's exactly what this is.

No, yeah, I don't think it is. I don't know if that's exactly what this is. No, yeah, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. Empathy to me means being able to share his feelings, to really actually walk in his shoes. Right. Man, I've tried, but I just can't. Like, he did too much shit and caused too much destruction. I can't.

But I guess, though, understanding him more as a way to find some kind of closure to diminish my anger, that's that I can get behind. I mean, that, in a way, I think is truly what this podcast has been about. And do you feel less angry? Well, obviously, I recognize that my journey is ongoing. But in this moment, yeah, I do.

And it feels good. It feels really good. So, yeah, I don't know what else there is to say. I'm not sure there is any more to say. At least not now. Okay. Well, I guess that means we've reached the end or at least the end of this chapter. Wow. Man, how are you feeling about that?

I think I'm actually going to miss this. But also, I'm not going to miss it at all. You know? Yes, yes.? Like this has been a lot. Honestly, I think if I were gung-ho to keep going, that would be indicative that something is desperately wrong with me. Yes, I hear you. And I guess I'd also say that I'm coming to the end of this experience with just a lot of curiosity. Curiosity about what this is now gonna feel like when it's not for public consumption, when it's just about me and my family. I'm just super curious about what's next in terms of that.

Yeah. Though I actually, I do want to say one other thing that I've been thinking about, which is that, you know, this podcast, it's called How to Destroy Everything. But I think that I've come to realize that it's not, in fact, a guide to destruction at all. It's actually a how-to guide for rebuilding, for healing, for processing, and actually, hopefully, for creating something new, you know, to emerge from the embers of that

destruction into someplace better. I think it's hopeful. Wow. I really love that. And I think that's a great place to end on. A hopeful place. Yeah. To what's next? To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new.

To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. To creating something new. Okay, so I just start reading it, right? You got it. Okay.

Deborah Baker Jr. No, it says how to destroy. Okay, yeah, that's so small. Okay. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky. Executive produced by Michael Grant Terry and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhardt and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry. Starring in alphabetical order, Debra Baker Jr., Mary Birdsong, Yair Bendor, Manuel Bermudez, Eugene Bird, Sheilal? Yeah, David Gorl, Darren Grodzki, Noah Harpster, Tom

Huang, Danny Jacobs, Carolyn Jannia, Jonathan C. Kaplan, Stephen Karen, Keele Kennedy, Kyle Kennedy? Yeah, I knew I just did that wrong. Kyle Kennedy, Ken Kirby, Tom Conkle, Shane Larsen, Shane Larsen. You gotta keep going. Oh no, I didn't know I did it the right way. Shane Larsen, Andrew Leeds, Peter McKenzie, Camille Manna, Jamie Moyer, Mike C. Nelson, Mariana Novak, Emily Pendergast,

Katie Parker, Jessica Polly, Chelsea- Jessica Polly. Jessica Polly, Chelsea Rebecca, Alex Rich, Kelsey Roberts,

Laura Chiren, Shine, Laura Shine Chiren, Laura Shine, Pippa Schroeder, Mari Sterling, Michael Strassner, Michael Suther Wilson, Jamila Webb, Bruce Wexler, Hartley Wexler, and Harrison Wexler. If you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell, please reach out to us at Iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Additionally, if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. And of course you can find us on Instagram and blue sky as well. How to Don't Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mom, you did it! That's the season one credits! Yay! A lot of names there, a lot of names.

I know, I know. A lot of people working for you, you and Darren. Yeah. A lot of people help and get this thing made. Including you, Mom. Yes. Oh, I'm not in there. My name wasn't in there. Well, maybe. Say your name now.

Sandra Jacobs. No, I don't want to say Sandra anymore. Sandy Jacobs. There you go, Mom. Yes. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.