How To Destroy Everything - Episode 7: How to Destroy a Career Part 2

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren tackle the second half of Richard Jacobs' "career". With his reputation in tatters, Richard attempts to regain his law license and aims his considerable talents (and relentlessness) at members of the St. Louis community, representing himself in a reign of terror and leaving trauma in his wake. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/DESTROY get on your way to being your best self Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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If you want someone to take it to those insurance companies, call 555 cash today I will push them pound them and crush them until they pay 555 cash 555 cash call today Chris Quinn On January 25th 1982 the United States Supreme Court decided the case known as Inri RMJ. It involves the validity of rules governing the advertisement by lawyers. It was a unanimous decision, and the majority opinion was written and announced by Justice Louis F. Powell Jr. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment of the Supreme Court of Missouri.

Thank you, Justice Powell. This was a huge victory for my dad, Richard Marc Jacobs, or RMJ, as he wanted to be known in the case to protect his privacy. As a result of this decision, the floodgates in the United States would open on lawyer advertising. So the next time you see one of those lawyer ads on TV or on the back of a bus or the next time you see one of those lawyer ads on TV, or on the back of a bus, or the next time you watch Better Call Saul, you have Richard Jacobs to thank. Of course, my dad wasn't there in November of 1981 when the Supreme Court heard oral arguments. He was back in St. Louis, dealing with the arrest that, as we discussed in our last episode,

would result in the suspension of his law license. And so, in the aftermath of all this, as we're set to dive into the latter half of his professional career, the question that remained was, what does someone who has all the promise in the world do in what should be the prime years of his career when that career is already over? Well, part of the answer was an effort to get his law license back, and we'll get into that. But the other answer, kind of the real answer, was that with too much time on his hands, too much time for a brilliant, restless mind, he caused a crazy amount of trouble.

My name is Danny Jacobs, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is episode seven, How to Destroy a Career, part two. And here in the studio with me, as always, to join me on this journey, my BFF, my cohost with the co-most, the man with whom I once got in trouble at a shopping mall for dropping pennies on people from the second floor DG money himself, mr. Darren Grotsky. Oh, thank you Danny

Are we gonna be using this forum to air all of our youthful mischief? I feel like that's a big part of what the podcast medium is for Darren. Wow fair enough Well, sorry buddy about the pennies, you know that kind of incident was kind of odd for me But you you had a bit of a reputation for mischief when we were kids. Not in school, but out and about. I mean, did I? I feel I don't think I was that bad.

I wasn't doing anything seriously. I mean, come on, mischief at the mall is just the start of it. Remember the shit you used to pull at Sunday school? You'd clog the toilets with toilet paper and you'd wet paper towels and then throw them up on the ceiling where they got toilet paper and you'd wet paper towels and throw them up on the ceiling where they got stuck.

I covered them in paper towels actually. And then by the way, the way that I clogged the toilets is you carefully unroll the toilet paper. So it wouldn't rip off. So it's wouldn't rip off. It's connected to the toilet roll and then you flush it and then it all can just goes in. I feel like in today's one ply toilet paper roll that wouldn't work anymore.

No, I mean, it was not very green of me. I mean, look, yes, I can see what you're saying. I did have a mischievous streak, but mischief is the right word. I mean, I wasn't doing anything like illegal or anything particularly bad. I think the statute of limitations will protect you, Danny Nathan, that you're afraid of.

My point is that you had a bit of a reputation. And actually, now that I think about it, reputation is a pretty good place to start here as we get into the second half of your dad's career. Because what was his reputation like professionally during the Supreme Court case and the TV scheme? Boy, that, my friend, is a segue if I've ever heard one. Hey, listen, man, I'm a professional podcaster. I know segues. What do you want? Yeah. So anyway, in terms of my dad's rap, we spoke with this guy, Mark Kruger, who was

an attorney in St. Louis who would go on to represent my mom, and we asked him what people would say about my dad back in those days. They'd say he was a criminal, that he was mentally ill, that he was mean, that he couldn't trust him. He had a terrible reputation. Horrible. I mean, there was no one who would ever defend him. I don't mean to be hurtful. No, no, of course. I was trying to answer your question.

Please, that's right. I mean, because at this point, he had been convicted of a felony, he had been disbarred, and he had filed a whole lot of frivolous lawsuits. And so, you know, in a courthouse, it's a very closed community, so word gets around, you know, and that was his reputation. It was, you know, he had to be careful that he didn't steal things out of the court file. He was accused of that. He had to look over every document that he'd filed because he changed them, you know, with

the copy machine. I mean, it was that he lied constantly. It was, I mean, you just had to mention his name and people would roll their eyes, you know. His reputation was not good. Well, that's pretty definitive. Yeah. I mean.

Now, one thing that he said in there that I'm trying to remember if there was more details on, he said that my dad changed documents with the copy machine. Oh my God, yes. Do you remember what that was about? Yes, yes, so this is crazy. So your dad would take these official documents and he would use, he would alter them.

And he was so good at the copy machine. It was like, it was like he was his own Photoshop before Photoshop existed. Where he could change them and copy them and create a new version of the document that was indistinguishable from the original except for the changes that he had made. And then he would submit them back to the court.

Yes. So then, oh yeah, that's right. And then he would submit them back to the court. Yes. So then, oh yeah, that's right. So then he would try to claim, I remember he would try to get out of cases being like, well, this document was filed too late, look at the date. Yes, exactly. And he had changed the date. Exactly. It's wild to me

that that kind of stuff like worked. It was. It had the potential to work. I mean, it's crazy. I guess in the 80s. Well, everything was on paper anyway. There's no digital record. But by the way, Mark is not exactly an outlier in terms of your dad's reputation. Right. We also spoke to Gordon Ankney, who is the special prosecutor on the TV theft case we

heard from in the last episode, who described my dad in a similar way. Richard Jacobs was a real thorn in the side in the courthouse and was giving the attorneys bad name by his actions. And I don't remember the exact details of what preceded this, but I do recall at some point in time he had a reputation for signing documents in blue ink so that when they were copied that it didn't come through and that he would claim they weren't signed, those kinds of things. And threatening lawsuits,

frivolous lawsuits against people for his own benefit. And by the way, the fact that Gordon was the guy who got this job to prosecute this case, that was really emblematic of the reputation that your dad had down at the courthouse. I don't remember exactly getting the case, but at the point in time in my career, I would have not gotten the case

unless it was a very significant case in the office, even though it was just two stealing charges. It's not the type of case that would be assigned to me. So obviously, there was some interest in the case by the elected prosecutor, who's name was Buzz Westfall and he was a friend of mine. I've worked with him for a number of years. I remember Buzz Westfall. He was the county executive when we were in high school. So you're saying that this on the surface wouldn't seem like a significant

case, but for some reason for Buzz Westfall as the elected prosecutor, he took a particular interest in this and assigned it to you. Yes, and I think I grew to understand why is that, you know, I might have heard about him, but I probably didn't pay much attention. I was really busy during this time. I mean, I was trying mostly capital murder cases in both the city and the country. That's so funny.

So you're like doing all these murder cases and then suddenly you get this like... $500 theft forged check case. That's fascinating. That kind of indicates that it was somewhat important to Buzz. By the way, quick sidebar here. Danny and I in high school were the president and vice president of the Students and Politics Club. You know, when you say it out loud like that, it reminds me how cool we were. Such cool guys! Such cool guys. I think this is absolutely the case.

Yeah. By the way, sponsored by Mr. Bouskis, our beloved history teacher, our IP Mr. Bouskis. Anyway, one of the speakers that we brought in was, in fact, Buzz Westfall. This was years after the whole, you know, obviously the case with your dad when he was the St. Louis County executive. Yeah, you know, and I wonder if when he came in, if he knew who I was. I mean, right? Could he? It's possible. I mean, he didn't say anything. No, he didn't. So he could have known and then chose not to say anything. That would have been weird to say that to say anything to this high school. He doesn't know what I know and for sure,

you know, for sure. But still, when Gordon brought that name up, I was just like, oh my God, we met him. We shook his hand, we talked to him. He spoke to our club. It is wild to think that like 15 years earlier from that event, this guy had such beef with my dad that he sicked one of his best prosecutors, who by the way was used to doing murder cases

on this little TV scheme. That is just crazy to me. And then you're right, a decade later his son calls him up to a high school politics club and he talks about St. Louis County executive. I have a question Mr. Westphal, can you talk about prosecuting my dad? Oh man, if you had only known you would have brought that up for sure. Anyway, back to Gordon. Actually it would have been, I have a question Mr. Westphal.

No, actually it would have been, I have a question Mr.. Buswalk. No, actually it would have been, I have a question, Mr. Buswalk. Now you're being anti-Semitic. No, it's just you're a nasally-voiced guy. You were. Now you've got, listen to those deep, deep baritone. Resonant of dulcent? Dulcent? Dulcet.

Dulcet, that's the word. I was adding an N. Yeah. And now, a word from our sponsor. Darren, you know this about me. I love a great deal as much as the next guy. Boy, do you ever. But you also know that I'm not gonna spend

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See Mint Mobile for details. Anyway, back to Gordon the attorney. I do want to dig a little more into how exactly this whole TV scheme led to your dad getting his law license suspended because we talked about it briefly at the end of the last episode, but there's more going on here

that I think is worth examining. Because it sets up in a lot of ways how things are going to go for the rest of Richard's career. Yeah well it turns out it was Gordon's idea. He came to see me about the case on his own behalf of trying to convince me not to prosecute and I made a suggestion or offer to him and Buzz obviously had to agree to it and did, is that if he would turn in his bar license to the disciplinary committee,

that we would drop the two charges. And the reason I did so was because I knew that the victim did not want to testify. And we would have gotten what we felt was best for the community and best for our victim. She wouldn't want to testify. And we would have gotten what we felt was best for the community and best for our victim. She wouldn't have to testify and he wouldn't be a lawyer, at least for some period of time, at least years, if he did so. He agreed to that. So I said, you need to bring me your license and the letter you're sending to the disciplinary

committee. And he brings me, and probably a week later or so, I don't remember exactly, but he came back and he had a box with him that was already sealed, already stamped and already addressed to the Missouri State Bar Licensing Committee. And he told me that it was all in there. Take his word for it. I should have known better. And I said, okay, just go mail it.

Thinking, you know, nobody's gonna renege on that. And it turned out it wasn't in there. And so we re-initiated the charges. And so now he was back to square one. And this time he got a lawyer. Wait, so let me just go back for a second before we get there. So you offered my dad this deal. He said, okay, I'll do it.

And then he had to just sort of put in his law license and send that all to the bar, right? And he... Yes, with a letter explaining that he was submitting his bar. And so, what was in the box if it wasn't all that stuff? You know, I'm trying to remember what it was, but I don't remember. And did he think... But it wasn't what it was supposed to be. What? It's incredible. You know, harkening back to our last episode, I kind of wish the box was filled with kids' toys.

I wish that that was the case. Toy cars? Yeah. Oh my god. Throughout his career. That would really tie the room together. But what I don't understand is what your dad's plan was here. Like what does he think is going to happen?

Does he think he's going to get away with not turning in his law license in perpetuity? No, no. He's going gonna find out. Yeah, I think that it was just about kicking the can down the road, but just delaying and delaying and delaying. Right. Solve it now and then deal with it later. Yeah, and in fact, listen to what happened next. Okay, so then he, so you're back to square one, you reinitiate the charges, he gets a lawyer, and then what happens from there? I do remember this. The lawyer is from Milwaukee, and I don't remember why. There was some connection between your dad

and this lawyer who I had a good reputation as a criminal lawyer in Milwaukee. Hmm. And maybe because I had several discussions with the guy both on on the phone and then in person. And the main discussion was was he was asking me to let your father go back to the deal and then he also your father underwent some mental evaluations I believe because we needed something more than to submit and I think finally between the two things that knowing that the victim really did not want to testify which would make it you know I didn't want to have to have to dismiss the case because the lack of prosecution which would be possible if she wouldn't testify and I would felt really bad about forcing her

to testify I decided to go ahead and let him take the deal again. Wow, so okay wait. But I put restrictions on it that the lawyer had to assure that everything was sent properly and send me copies, which he did. When you say that there were mental evaluations, were those ones that my dad wanted to have done as a part of this, or were those mandated by you and your office? No, I think this was the lawyer decided this was one way to convince us to move forward, and the lawyer set it up.

Now a couple things about this. So first of all, looking through the court documents, your dad got a psychiatric evaluation. Right. And the doctor did say that they don't have enough information to make like a for sure diagnosis. But what they said was that he seemed to fit the diagnostic category known

as narcissistic personality disorder. There's something that feels good about seeing it in black and white. There it is. There it is. Now, they also listed off a bunch of characteristics that they found in your dad in this psychiatric evaluation. I want to run these by you. Yep. Okay, here we go. Number one, feelings of entitlement. Oh, yeah. Number two, that he engaged in interpersonal exploitation.

Check. And number three, oh, I'm sure you're going to disagree with this one. He had little or no capacity to empathize with others. What? Oh, no, totally wrong. So as a part of this evaluation, the doctor recommended therapy, regular supervision,

and a steady psychotherapy. Oh my god. Well, I can tell you that my dad, I'm sure, followed that to a T. To a T, absolutely Absolutely and that's why everything worked out so well and why we're here talking about that. But okay here's the thing that I am most fascinated by. This evaluation was suggested by your dad's side. Yeah. Which at first seems crazy until you learn that one of the things that your dad tried to do later on was get other doctors to give him

a clean bill of health, and then he could use that to get reinstated. Yeah, so let me kind of just outline what happened here. So my dad basically agreed to undergo an evaluation so that it would be mental health that would be the reason that his law license got suspended, not the crime that he was in. That's right. That's the deal with Gordon's office, right? They got rid of the crime.

The bargain, right? And his idea was that later on he could get reinstated because it's about mental health and not the crime. I mean, it's just, it's brilliant. It is. It's like, what do they say? 40 chess, you know, except it didn't work. Yeah. So according to the case, which is called Inri Jacobs, and it's from 1990. Kind of amazing, by the way, that the Supreme Court case that he won was Inri RMJ. And now this one is Inri Jacobs. Yeah. And so my dad tried and failed at least four times to get his law license reinstated throughout the decade of the 1980s. Including getting these doctors to try to give him a clean bill of health.

But what it says in the case is that there's some evidence to suggest that your dad manipulated them. Yeah. So, I mean, basically in elementary school, when they asked you, like, what does your dad do for a living? And I said lawyer. Yeah. I was trying to be honest, but apparently that was not the case. Your whole childhood. He didn't have a license. He was not a lawyer.

I mean, it's, you know, yet, even though he wasn't technically a lawyer, he was still in the court all the time because he could represent himself. Because you don't need a law license. Anybody can represent themselves. That's like a constitutional right. Yep. And he took advantage of that. And you know what?

That reminds me of the support group that we mentioned way back in episode one. The support group, which was comprised of all of these people that were sued relentlessly by my dad. Yes. This is all happening in part in this time because of the circumstances in which your dad had lost his legal license. Yeah. And by the way, we're still unfortunately looking for someone, anyone from that support

group who is still alive. Yes. Or dead. We'll take dead. Yeah, whatever. I mean, honestly, any lead you can give us. Decayed. Your body's fully decayed. Well, you're getting dark now. We'll put a mic right up to that skull.

So dark now. We just it's become our white whale. That's why we're so dark and depraved and describing what we want. We apologize for that. And now a word from our sponsor. How to Destroy Everything is sponsored by BetterHelp. Danny, this is the season to give thanks. You know who I'd like to give thanks to, and I think this is apropos given the nature of our podcast.

It's me? Is it me? No. I'd like to give thanks to my parents. Oh. My mom and my dad. You know, I have a new appreciation for my own childhood after going on this journey with you in this podcast. So thanks, mom and dad.

Yeah, well, I think that's great, especially because I think this month is really all about gratitude. You know what I mean? For sure. And I think there's another person though that we don't thank enough, Darren, and that's ourselves. Oh, gosh, it's true. By the way, which is something that I've kind of learned

in my own therapeutic experience, taking gratitude for the things that I'm doing well, you know what I mean? We can often be so critical of all the choices we're making, but just sort of taking time to make sure and highlight, oh, I made a good choice here is really important. Absolutely, and all of this is something that you can work through via BetterHelp, which is entirely online. So it's designed to be super convenient

and flexible and suited to whatever your schedule may be. Yeah, just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash destroy today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.help.com slash destroy. So anyway, my dad can't practice law, got a ton of time on his hands, and he's got this kind of itchy trigger finger for filing lawsuits. So that brings us back to the woman we mentioned at the end of our last episode. My name is Barbara and I met your father in the St. Louis airport.

I had just got home from Palm Springs. So I got off the plane and the gentleman who came to pick me up was with me. Oh, honey. There you are. Which carousel were you going to? They didn't say. I can't stand around waiting, though. I need a cigarette.

So you could only smoke in certain spots. And I knew that. So I asked the baggage clerk where I could smoke. And he walked me to where your father was sitting. He looked a bit disheveled. I would have never guessed he was a lawyer. Never. Yeah. Yeah. So he was sitting in the smoking section?

Yes, sir. And at that time, they had silver trays in between these seats. And your father was reading a newspaper, but that's where the dish was in between the two chairs. And at that time I smoked these very long little tiny things called Capris. They were like eight inches long. They were ungodly. Yeah so your father's there reading a newspaper and I light up my cigarette and he immediately gets offended. Well he starts coughing and stuff. Coughing kind of performatively, you're suggesting? Theatrical, very theatrical. It was such a crazy flight. Was it? Excuse me. Put out the cigarette.

What? What for? No, no, I have a serious health issue and the smoke aggravates it. I'm sorry, then why are you sitting in the smoking section? No, no, I'm sorry you can't read, but this is not the smoking section. This is actually- Excuse me, if this ain't the smoking section, why do you think they got ashtrays between

the arm rests? Exactly, goodbye. Two times I went to ash my cigarette, he just had his newspaper over it, but I tossed it back on his lap. I'm like, I just didn't say anything, I just tossed just tossed it back well I didn't know who I was messing with okay you are being incredibly rude do you know that I have a medical condition you're sitting here laughing about it okay I think you're being rude can we just calm down for a sec I've had excuse me excuse me I've had a hell of a day

okay I'm just trying to enjoy a cigarette before I get my bag. Okay? Put it out. What? No! I said put it out. And I said I'm not going to put out my cigarette. Hey guy, hey guy, have a move your hand, okay?

No, no. I need to ash and you're blocking. So I let this cigarette get a really long ash on it and when I went to make a jerk like this the ash fell on Mr. Jacob's hand. No, I'm not going to go anywhere. Ow! Ow! That bug! Oh, my God. It burned me. Did you see that?

You just hit me. Did you see that, honey? That one's so new, right? He hit me. Then your dad socks me in the arm and takes off running. That's when my ride went and got the police. And when you say he took off running, like you're saying like full on sprinting or like? I don't know. They found him in the arcade.

There was two witnesses. I had a BJC nurse who had witnessed this and a St. Louis city fireman. But Mr. Jacobs would have been arrested regardless that night because Mr. Jacobs had an outstanding warrant in Lidu. The ambulance came for him. They even checked Mr. Jacobs out. He refused to go in the ambulance. The ambulance came because he said he had an allergy? Well, yeah.

I was like, how do you ask this way? It was obvious that Mr. Jacobs had some problems. He was looking for a challenge. I don't know. Why would someone sit in the smoking area and then say, I'm allergic to smoke? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop, stop, stop for a second. Let's just jump in here to say that what we definitely know

is that your dad was arrested that night. Barbara did alert a police officer. Right, but what we don't definitively know is how things went down exactly. Like the scene that you just heard is how it went according to our interview with Barbara, but the facts from the Court of Appeals case don't exactly align with that.

Right, so let's hear it again. The lights on is for immediate attention. So you could only smoke in certain spots, and I knew that, so I asked the baggage clerk where I could smoke and he walked me to where your father was sitting. So the first thing to note according to the case file is that apparently, despite the ashtrays, smoking was not allowed in this section. Those ashtrays must have been a relic from the past.

Excuse me, miss, would you mind putting out your cigarette? What for? Also, according to the case file, after my dad told her he had a health reaction to cigarette smoke, Barbara blew smoke in his face. Okay, you are being incredibly rude. Do you know that? I have a medical condition and I'm asking you to put out your cigarette. What is not disputed is that she kept smoking and he put his hand over the receptacle

and also that the ashes landed on his hand. Ow! Ow! Oh, that burned! But according to my dad, he didn't strike her in anger. He jerked his hand back and inadvertently struck her in the shoulder. Okay, that was a natural reflex to you almost burning my hand. Okay, look, what I'll say is this. Well, we may never know the exact facts of how things went down.

I do know that my dad had a very real repulsion to cigarette smoke. Oh, yes, I remember that. I remember how you would carry around one of those little battery operated fans. Even if anybody was smoking nearby, he would just turn it on and blow the smoke right back at them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, which is both kind of of obnoxious but also heroic in a way, in terms of the fight against secondhand smoke. Yes, yes.

Which by the way, sometimes I just think about how it used to be when we grew up, where, you know, restaurants would have smoking sections. You'd have to be like, I want non-smoking please. And they would seat you potentially right next to a smoker. It's also making me think about my dad a little bit. This obsession he had about smoking, I think it's important to note that we learned that when my grandma was depressed when he was growing up, she was a nonstop smoker. In fact, my grandma got lung cancer.

She survived. But that was a thing. And I just wonder if his relationship to smoking had something to do with that. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So anyway, so... Dr. Danny. Well, the details of what happened that day are murky, okay? One thing I don't doubt is that Barbara saying,

my dad was being very aggressive in pushing back on her smoking. Oh my God. Yeah, I mean, for sure. Like if there's anything about your dad, it's that he, he could, he did not shy away from confrontations. Now I think most people backed away from those confrontations. Right. They gave him what he wanted. And that's one of the things that's interesting about this is like what led to this ordeal was that my dad was coming up against another person who was like, I'm not going to back down. She was in a state and she was not going to back down.

Yeah. And didn't she, and she worked in a law firm. She was like, I'm not gonna back down. She was in a state and she was not gonna back down. Didn't she, and she worked in a law firm. She was like, she was familiar with the law too, to a degree. Yes. And so you had these opposing forces that would refuse to be movable. Indeed. One thing about this whole episode, by the way though,

does shine a light on something that I think is kind of important in the podcast. And that's the question of memory, you know, and the veracity of what people, including you and me, by the way, are saying and remembering about all this. No, I mean, listen, this stuff happened a long time ago. It was my childhood. I know that I blocked a lot of things out.

I'm trying to stay humble about my own memory as we're working our way through this. Anyway, this incident at the airport leads into a legal odyssey. —Morass. —A morass. A quagmire. That just goes on for almost a decade. It embroils tons of other people, and it turns into a confusing and really unnecessary time suck for everyone involved.

Yeah, well, the thing is, for Barbara, it becomes more than a time suck. It's something that in a lot of ways, from her own admission, ruined her life. My case with your father lasted approximately eight to nine years. Oh, that's crazy. I'm so sorry. That's awful. They took Mr. Jacobs away. And so I guess a year or two goes by. I find out your father's disbarred. I want

to know everything because I want to know who this man is. How can he do this? And then the stories just kept unfolding. The lawyer that represented me was my employer. I worked for the man at the time. The lawyer I worked for was your was mr. Jacobs age so he knew Richard very well, right? Who was that lawyer that you worked for? Patrick McCarthy Yeah, so and in your testimony on the stand is that when you said? Something about his prior history that is yes. I did not know that you can't bring up someone's prior history into court.

You know, I had not been trained. I was very naive. I didn't know what I could say and couldn't say. That's when your dad yelled, MISTRIAL! So, you have this trial. This trial goes on about his arrest. There's a mistrial because his past is brought up,

and then what happens? He files RICO papers and files more and more and more. And yeah. So it's like, how does this, you just find out, like you get a call that like you're being sued by Richard Jacobs for RICO. Is that how this works? No, he dropped it off at my place of employment.

I'm working at that law firm, that security firm downtown, and here comes Mr. Jacobs and plops down this motion. And I was so shocked, I couldn't even speak. He walked in, he threw it down and turned around and walked out. And he personally delivered it to you. Yes, he did. Oh, he delivered everything. Oh, yes. Uh-huh. Let's talk about Rico because Danny and I are not lawyers, but my understanding of Rico is that it's related to like embezzlement kind of stuff. And racketeering, yes sir. And racketeering, yeah. So can you help us understand what's going on here? No. Your father was his only witness and represented himself.

He questioned himself on a witness stand. What does that mean exactly? When you say he questioned, is he sitting on the witness stand? Is he standing? Yes, he is sitting on the witness stand? Is he standing? Yes, he is sitting on the witness stand questioning himself in the third person. Mr. Jacobs, can you tell the jury? And I mean, Pete, you could hear people giggling. Another thing Mr. Jacobs would do was, he kept his hair fairly short, especially he would grab his hair back

here and he'd pull it. He'd pull it out. And I noticed that when he was nervous, he would literally pull just little pieces of his hair out like he was punishing himself. That's exactly what came to mind. From the back of his neck. Yeah. I want to know more about him. I think he's a genius because how do you come to this? It made no sense. And the trial was a farce.

I mean, it was, people laughed at him and he won. It was... And so, at the end of this case, he wins whatever, $14,000. Like this is now like... I mean, I guess, I don't even know. At this point, I was so flabbergasted. I don't even know what I lost. I know I put up a bond. I was just flabbergasted. It was like a train had hit me that he honestly

had just won thousands of dollars against me. And someone just sent me the motion and dollars against me and someone just sent me the motion and the judgment. I didn't even read it. I almost started crying. I almost canceled. Well, I can say this to you, Danny, because you understand trauma. I, you know, had complex PTSD. So I've gone through and your father helped contribute to that. I hated your father, I must tell you, but the more he just was so obsessive, I don't know, he was just genius. I don't know how, what his IQ was, but while he has his bad

points, and I'm not saying that I liked him in any way. It's just the way he sought and the talents and skills that he could have done such good in the world, you know? I believe that he could have really changed the world instead of you know wrecking little lives. If you had to do it all over again, I'm assuming the answer would be that you would get up from that chair? You betcha. So I mean that's a lot that this woman went through because of your dad. Yeah.

I don't know. I just I guess I'm wondering, I mean I'm devastated listening to it even from my vantage point What is it like for you to hear all of that? I mean it's She she cried several times when we talked to her. Yes, and I Remembered just sort of disassociating a little bit when she did that I think partly because it was hard for me to acknowledge and wrap my brain around the full scale of destruction that my dad wrought. I think that in my head, the people that my dad interacted with ruined their day, you

know? Yeah, yeah. But not their whole life. Right. You know, yeah, but not their whole life, right? I mean this woman's whole trajectory got sent on a Completely different path because of my dad it reminded me a little bit of some of the conversations We had with the neighbors back in episode three. Yeah who lived near him. So there was sort of no escaping him, right? But but but they didn't have the effect on their Because it goes even beyond that and like yeah I yeah, I just like, I was thinking about you

when we were talking to her in terms of like, you're just in your dad's house, you're in your dad's life, you're his son going around with him. And when you're a kid, you don't know what your dad's doing. He's just typing up things, making, writing documents, going to PO boxes. But now it's like, you're almost time traveling back and imagining all this is happening.

Yeah, it's rough. I mean, and I think about Barbara and I'm like, there's a part of me that's like, just give up. Why didn't you just give up? Right. You know, but, but that's sort of like, you can't blame the victim. No, of course not. Like that's sort of victim blaming. It's not her fault that she wanted to stand up for this. Absolutely. And I mean, by the way, I feel like I could see you, if you were Barbara and there was somebody way I feel like I could see you if you were Barbara and there was somebody like your dad I could see you not giving up yeah I know you're right fuck this guy oh yeah yeah I will not go that's probably true and now a word from our sponsor how to destroy everything is sponsored by acorns Darren what's one money lesson that you wish you

had learned earlier oh boy how much time you got mean, remember when we were in our 20s? I wish that I had known to start investing then. Oh, back then. Would have made a big difference. I've got kids now and yeah, I would be feeling it now as opposed to, you know, scrambling and trying to catch up. Well, if only we had acorns because acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for your future. Well, if only we had Acorns, because Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for your future. Yeah, you don't need a lot of money or expertise to invest with Acorns. In fact, you can get started with just your spare change. Acorns recommends an expert-built portfolio that fits you and your money goals, then automatically invest your money for you. Yeah, one of the things that I loved the most about Acorns is that they have this compound

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investment advisor view important disclosures at acorns.com slash destroy. Now we also sought out and spoke with one of Barbara's attorneys, Patrick McCarthy, whose interactions with your dad in this case, I think, offer a pretty good summary of the second half of his career, which is to say, basically, gratuitous legal kerfuffles and making life miserable for lots of people. And by the way, we had to do this interview

kind of last minute, so we apologize for any audio quality issues. Do you remember anything about, like, your interaction with my dad or anything about him during that trial? Oh, I do indeed. Your father would have all these secretive methods, which he would have a, I believe he had a telephone that you couldn't leave it. He didn't have a physical address. He would use a post office box for a private mail service. His fax machine really accept under certain circumstances or something. It was all very bizarre. I do know that when I did a background investigation on him, he had some relationship or some cover story out in Las Vegas. That part I do remember. There was either an associate of his or, or an alias he was using. I

wouldn't surmise the purpose of that is so he had an alter ego somewhere, somewhere else. Now why he had an alter ego, I don't know. But that's, that was kind of the impression I was left with. It was actually an alter ego, I don't know. But that's, that was kind of the impression I was left with. It was actually an alter ego of his. I guess I'm just wondering overall, like, after that experience, knowing what you knew about my dad, like, what do you what do you generally make of him? I think he had extreme paranoia. But he had all these, what he thought were very clever traps, and they would conceal his

whereabouts and identity and everything else. First of all, the guy was a lawyer, which we hold in highest or supposed to hold in highest esteem. And he violated his oath of office by stealing a file for whatever reason. And he got caught. I knew of him because he had stolen a file from the St. Louis County Court's clerk's office and secreted it somehow and was prosecuted for that. So what Patrick McCarthy is referring to there turns out to be a seminal event in the second half of my dad's career.

He stole a file from the clerk's office in the St. Louis County Courthouse. Right, well he got caught stealing a file. We actually think he may have stolen a bunch of files. Yeah, this is the one he got caught on. Yes, now this was written up in the newspapers at the time. And in fact, this is what would eventually lead to his permanent disbarment. Right. So to get into the nitty gritty of it, we spoke with Brad Kessler, who represented my dad in the case. As a criminal defense lawyer, there are people who feel

that criminal defense lawyers are eccentric. I would say your dad stood ahead above that reputation. Maybe as a result of this case, his appearance was a little eccentric. I would say he was of a Woody Allen, sort of nebushy kind of appearance. Yep. Nailed it. of a Woody Allen sort of nebishy kind of appearance. LAUGHS Yep.

Nailed it. You nailed it. From that time period in the 90s, I remember my dad, his uniform, per se, would be these, like, short-sleeve button-down dress shirts that would be light blue, usually. Sometimes with a tie, sometimes not. Grey slacks. But then he would have have like, you know, mustard stains on the shirt and things like that.

Yes, as though he just designed the moon landing. As though he what? Sorry. As though he just designed the moon landing, is how I would have described him. Yes, I think that is an amazing description. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And so, do you remember anything about what his, like, what was the defense?

What he had said to me is, and this is true, he always carried around two or three huge files that were not necessarily orderly. He said he'd been in the clerk's office looking at a file, he had set his file down and inadvertently picked it up on the bottom of the file that he had just sat down, did not realize he had it. My recollection of the evidence is someone saw him take it and slide it into his file as opposed to him inadvertently setting his file on top of it and scooping everything up at once. Wow. Did my dad seem, did he seem trustworthy? Well, I'm going to say this. I knew the clerk had no reason to just make this up about anybody.

However, I could say that your dad was such an irritant to these people that perhaps it was possible that she made it up about him out of spite. But I knew her to be a very nice person. And so I had my doubts about your father's version. Now, we had found an article about this case. And I think it was in the Post Dispatch at the time. And I just want to read you one thing that it said. It says, before Judge Robert S. Cohen on Friday, Jacobs insisted that he was innocent of the

charge because he had lacked any intent to take any document. Jacobs, 47, of Clayton also criticized his attorney, Brad Kessler, over legal issues that Jacobs claimed Kessler had failed to pursue. Do you know what he's referring to there when he said... I know what he's referring to. There had been a dispute. He wanted me to bring in mental disease or defect kind of defenses, which would not have really been relevant. If you are acting without intent because of a mental disease or defect, then the act has occurred. He denied the act occurred. During the trial, he then said the act had occurred, but it was an accident. Well, that gets rid of the mental disease or defect, it gets rid of self-defense. So he wanted inconsistent defenses presented to Judge Cohen, who

already knew him. And it was my impression was not going to believe any defense, let alone inconsistent defense and then have to make a decision between inconsistent defenses. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. So you you knew... I don't know. Yeah, go ahead. Let me just add this. You know, as Jews, which is a majority in that courthouse, Judge Cohn, myself, your dad, there was sort of an understanding that this is just not what Jews did, is steal things

out of court files. Jewish lawyers especially because of the bad rap everyone gives to Jewish lawyers. And so I'm going to say there was an undercurrent of that sort of thing already. So I'm going to say that Judge Cohn did not like the allegation itself because it smeared a large percentage of the Jewish lawyers who did not engage in this kind of conduct. So then let me ask you a few other questions about this article because I think it's really interesting. It says, then Jacobs chastised Cohen for going ahead with the sentencing even though Jacobs

had called the courthouse Friday morning to tell the judge he was sick. Cohen listened to Jacobs' monologue for 30 minutes, then imposed a sentence, a fine of $1,000 in court costs. Do you remember him doing a 30-minute monologue to the judge? Yes. Yes. But I wasn't surprised that your dad went on for 30 minutes. I was surprised it was only 30 minutes. But yeah, he could have slammed him. He could have sent him to prison. I do think he felt sorry for your dad. And I don't think that he wanted to do anything except correct your father's future Behavior and acknowledge that he was not a saint for having committed the crime

But there are plenty of people who would have sent someone to jail and he did not How do you what kind of box do you put him in? Like how would you sum up this guy? Like it seems so complicated. You know what I mean? well again not to delve into the religious aspect, but my grandfather was an attorney. So I've always grown up with the idea that this is the pinnacle of what a Jew could attain, either that or be a professor or whatever. So why risk it?

Why find yourself in a position that you have attained a certain position and yet on the other hand know that the guy was somewhat of a genius because he had gotten the Supreme Court to agree with a position that either nobody had ever thought of before or nobody had ever pursued it as far as he had. So it's almost like, you know, winning a gold medal in the Olympics, and then you become something else. Someone's always gonna remember you for the greatest thing you did,

but they'll judge you for the worst thing you ever did. And again, I'm just shocked he was 46 or 47, and the thought of having been disbarred at that age or suspended at that age, when you are literally in the prime of your career for that going on the next 20 years of your life. It's just a lot. I would say he could not help himself. So I have to say that while I know there's a lot to process in that discussion, the thing

that maybe threw me for a loop the most was the stuff about your dad giving Jewish lawyers a bad name. Yeah. You know, in fact, in all the years of trying to understand my dad, that particular context never actually occurred to me. Right? Me neither. Yeah. I mean, it resonated to the point where we felt like we should go back to your family rabbi, Rabbi Stiffman, to talk about it. To some extent, being a lawyer was a pinnacle of Jewish achievement,

but there was a feeling at that time in the 70s and maybe even into the 80s that Jewish people had arrived at positions that they hadn't before. But I must say that when any Jewish person got into trouble and it was made public, the whole community did feel perhaps embarrassed or upset and thinking what would the non-Jews think. Richard was a charming man. He spoke very eloquently and fluently. I understand that when he was younger he showed such exceptional promise. Parents were very proud of him, and they had hoped that he would one day become a prime

lawyer, a superstar in a way. And it appears that the mental condition prevented this. When I saw him, he seemed to be still trying very hard to succeed, but then I felt more and more a dislocation from reality. I knew that his family was very embarrassed by it. His father had been very active in many areas of the Jewish community. When I would see him in public, he seemed totally unfazed about anything that was happening.

There was always the smile on his face and the nonchalant attitude. I think we all felt very, very sorry that the promise did not play out as everyone had hoped. Do you have any words of advice for Danny in terms of maybe his own promise and you know possibility and so forth? That would be very hard for me to say other than the fact that Danny has moved on to such a creative life and in dealing with the childhood traumas that he has, as far as I can tell from a long distance and spending some time together, he's traveled a long, long way. Sometimes victims of dysfunctional life end up repeating the pattern. Other times lessons learned help the victim, shall we say,

to try to live a better life and to make more secure human connections. And it certainly seems that Danny has done this in many, many ways. And I was saying to your mother before that I love it that you're still Danny and not Dan or Daniel. You know, as we zoom out to look at the second half of your dad's career from like 30,000 feet, we have really only scratched the surface in this episode because there are so many other cases we found in which Richard was involved. Yeah, I mean, dozens that we were able to find.

Personal injury cases, contempt charges. There's county ordinance violations. There's cases literally against St. Louis County itself. Right, and then of course, like a litany of names of random people, all of whom, like Barbara, probably had their lives upended in some way. And, you know, we've spoken to some of the folks involved in those cases and one lawyer who didn't want to be interviewed did describe my dad like this.

His mannerism and underlying malevolence remind me of the penguin from Batman. There's something bad lurking in there. I mean, Jesus, it's kind of right on, actually. It is. It is. So, okay. Over the course of multiple episodes now, Danny, we have gone over your dad's career from the highest highs at the Supreme Court, you know, down to the lowest lows of permanent

disbarment, arrests, humiliation, all of it. Somehow, he managed to avoid prison throughout all of this. But I mean, look, his story is not a great success story. It's a story of failed promise, I think, really. Yeah, I mean, look, he could have been a superstar in the legal profession, but he threw it all away. So having gone through all this now, where's your head at? Like, what do you make of all this?

Well, what do I make of it? You know how in baseball when scouts look at a prospect and they project, like like a possible range of outcomes for that player? Yes. I'm just laughing because I love that you've gone back to a sports analogy just like you did in the letter you wrote to your dad like two decades ago.

Well, I guess it's how I see the world. So there's in these projections, there's this likely ceiling and a possible floor for any given baseball project. I'm with you. Some of them have fairly narrow range of possibilities, but then every once in a while you get this weird outlier where the range is off the charts.

Like in the best case scenario, they're one of the greatest players of all time. And in the worst, they're not even a major leaguer. I guess that is how I think about my dad. Oh, wow. Interesting. It's, you know, it makes you wonder like if there are some alternate universes where things went differently

and maybe your dad is this huge success and we're just living in like the worst Richard Jacobs possible timeline. Yeah, but you know, now that I think about it, maybe I'll just gonna go against what I just said before because in a lot of ways, I think the way that my dad's career ended up was the kind of only way that it would end up. Like I don't see a universe in which he became that Hall of Famer. You know what I mean? Like deep down, this is who he is. Doomed to fail.

Yeah. And yet 20 years ago, you wrote that letter where you like wanted better for him. Like how does that make you feel that you now see it that way, that this is who he was? I mean, sad, sad. It's all seems like just such a waste. Waste.

I think that is the perfect word actually to describe it. You know, what a waste of an intellect, a waste of ability, a waste of persistence and diligence and all of the above. And that makes me want to ask you a slightly uncomfortable question. Uncomfortable is my middle name, Darren. So my question is this,

do you think that there's any way that all this focus on your dad's lost potential might kind of be related to a fear of your own lost potential? I mean, I don't think I'm going to go stealing televisions or court files anytime soon. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Is there any part of you that looks at your dad and then looks at yourself and is like, oh no, I am not reaching my potential? I mean, okay, listen, honestly, if I'm being totally honest, Yes. Yeah, yes. The answer is yes, a big part of me. I mean, look, just talking about our career, like you and I directed our first feature film,

which is by the way, Humble County, available wherever you rent or buy movies now, when we were what, like 26 or 27 years old? That was a nice plug and yes you were right we were but babes. Yeah and that film did pretty well it started a then unknown Jeremy Strong in his very first film or TV role, it premiered at South By, it got distributed into theaters across the country. Right but it didn't exactly like the box office. No and I remember back in those days like you and I had all this kind of optimism for the future.

Oh, absolutely. We were like, we're gonna make a movie a year until we die or one of us kills the other. But then it wasn't until another six years that we got made another movie, Growing Up Another Lies, which, you know, wasn't received well critically. And maybe we were then in some kind of,

I don't know, what do they call it? Director's jail. And soon we had families in some kind of, I don't know, what do they call it, director's jail? Yep. Assume we had families to support, and we pivoted to writing and for you acting. Yeah, and I don't want to say we didn't have success doing those things. We have.

We've had some real success in our writing career, and I've worked steadily as an actor for 20 years. But when it comes to our original dream of directing movie after movie, that dream has been deferred. Exactly. So here we are nine years after our second movie came out, and we haven't been able to make a third one yet. And you know, one thing that I actually do wonder is if maybe I could have used some of the chutzpah that my dad had in sending those letters and messages out to like,

Steven Spielberg and James Cameron and the like all those years ago. Well, that's actually kind of a profound and bizarre thought. What you're saying, what I'm hearing you say is that a part of you wishes to be a little bit more like Richard Jacobs. I mean, yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying in a way. I mean, you take that energy, you put it in a more mentally healthy container, right? And maybe I would have been able to accomplish more of the things that I think I'm capable of accomplishing.

Are you that mentally healthy container? I guess so. I guess that's what I'm saying. I'm going to put aside my dispute with that idea, just to say that, first of all, I don't know that you can harness that in any kind of mentally healthy container. And secondly, I think you're putting a lot into the idea

that you have control over this, that any of this is within our control, that you could have done more. I know, I'm just saying, my dad was such a fucking singular force of nature, right? And it honestly did feel to me at times growing up with him that he had the capability of bending the universe to his will.

Oh yeah. And maybe I just like a little bit of that. Just a twinkle of that mojo. I get it, I get it. And I think what you just said there, bending the universe to his will, as we are wrapping up this discussion now of his career, that is certainly what he tried to do.

And in many cases, he was able to do it, but not ultimately. His failure was that he actually couldn't quite do that. And that brings me back to your mom, I think, where we left off with your mom right at the moment when she decided to leave your dad. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's time to get back

to the story of Richard and Sandy. Right. And so as we do that now in the next couple episodes, you know, we're gonna really get into the meat of your childhood for the first time. We've been living in the past, kind of pre-Danny or early Danny, but now this is like vintage Danny. We're going to talk to your mom, obviously, but we're also going to talk to friends of ours. We're going to look at these court transcripts from

your parents' divorce, where your dad represented himself and actually cross-examined you, his son, on the witness stand when you were a little kid. Yep. As we go into this next phase of the podcast, how are you feeling about all this? I'm filled with my usual helping of sheer terror and absolute dread, Darren. Now that sounds like a great teaser. A great teaser for what? For our next episode. The next episode of what, Darren?

Oh, I see. I see what you're doing. You're trying to get me to say the thing. And then you're gonna not let me say the thing. What thing are you gonna say? I'm not gonna do it. Not gonna do what? I see what you're doing. You're trying to get me to say that. You're trying to get me to say the thing. And then you're going to stop. You're going to not let me say the thing. What thing are you going to say? I'm not going to do it. Not going to do what? I'm not going to do it. I hate you. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky.

Executive produced by Michael Grant Terry, and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhart and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry, starring in alphabetical order, Mary Birdsong, David Goral, Carolyn Jania, Jonathan Kaplan, Kyle Kennedy, Chelsea Rebecca, Mike Terry, Ben Tolpin, John O. Wilson. If you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell, please reach out to us at Iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Additionally,

if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. And of course, you can find us on Instagram and Twitter as well. How to Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.