How To Destroy Everything - Episode 9: How to Destroy a Divorce Part 2

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren go into the courtroom during Richard and Sandy's trial and they are able to hear, in Richard and Sandy's own words, the diametrically opposed perspectives of Danny's parents. In doing so, Danny confronts one of the most seminal moments of his childhood that has haunted him for decades. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mr. Franks, your witness. Would you state your name for the record, please? Richard Jacobs. Mr. Jacobs, are you the respondent in this action? Yes, I am. Where did you graduate from high school? University City Senior High. And when was that?

Sixty-one, or sixty-three. I'm trying to remember. Senior High. And when was that? 61. Or 63. I'm trying to remember. Mr. Jacobs, when you and your wife separated in 1984 in June, did the children go voluntarily with Mrs. Jacobs? No. She just took them. I object.

That goes into the state of mind of the children. The objection will be overruled. She just took them. She left a note on the refrigerator and I... That's... you know? I came home and there was a note on the refrigerator. And what was the substance of the note? I have taken the boys to Kansas City.

I'm leaving you. I'm not coming home." Growing up with my dad was like growing up with an alien in the body of a human being. An alien who knew that dads are supposed to love their sons, but when it came to casual conversations, the how is your day kind of stuff, well that's when his alien nature really shined. My dad would not tell me any details about his life. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how many questions I asked, he wouldn't share basic things about how he spent his days,

what he did at work, who he talked to, what he had for lunch. Which is why the thousands of pages of divorce court documents we recently got our hands on have been so revelatory. For the first time in my life, mostly because he was compelled to take the stand, I got a glimpse into my dad's actual mindset and a window into what his life was like.

So I suppose it's a silver lining that my parents' custody proceedings, which started when my mom left my dad when I was five, lasted so goddamn long. In fact, there was no real resolution in custody until it was 10 or maybe 11. Honestly, it was such an endless crazy era that everyone's a little fuzzy on the details. But these documents are anything but fuzzy. Reading them, finally I have access to this period that was so pivotal. And perhaps now I can get closer to understanding the impact it had on me. My name is Danny Jacobs, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about

how one narcissist, my dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. This is episode nine, How to Destroy a Divorce. And with me, as always, right here in the studio, the man with whom I made a video book report in elementary school in which we used a children's indoor play park to represent the Underground Railroad, Mr. Darren Grotsky. Oh, no. Hi, everybody. Thank you. Apologies to Harriet Tubman.

I mean, you know, was that in bad taste? Sure. Yes. But alongside our friend Josh Katz, who made it with us, you know, for a trio of nine-year-olds, I think that was a pretty radical take on the Underground Railroad. Which is kind of fitting, by the way, because this episode is going to be pretty radical. Yes, you are right. Because unlike other episodes where we take real stories and write scenes inspired by

them, everything you're going to hear in this episode comes straight from the court transcripts. I mean, unless there was some rogue court stenographer in St. Louis County in the late 1980s. No, no, no. All of this, it actually happened. Yeah. And one of the things that I just want to outline as we're getting started here are the three main issues that are dealt with in the proceedings. Yes. So the first is an evaluation of Richard's qualities as a father. Yeah. Basically trying to answer the question of whether my dad has the right disposition

to take care of his kids. My answer? No. You know what, let's go in with an open mind. What about this objectivity? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Anyway, the second issue is your dad's psychological state. So as part of these hearings,

Richard was actually evaluated by a medical professional. So we will get into that. And then the third issue, and this isn't gonna come as a shocker, revolves around money. Specifically, whether or not my dad had enough of it to help support my brother and me. So with all of that in mind, let's head back into the courtroom. Darren, quiet down. They're getting started.

This is exciting. Here he is on the stand, responding to a question from his attorney about what makes him a good father. I feel like we're in that show. It's that courtroom show where they actually do this kind of golf talk, you know what I mean? The people's court? Yeah, people's court. I think I'm sensitive. I'm understanding. I'm available when the boys have needed me. I believe in letting the children be children and not telling them what to do. even letting the children be children and not telling them what to do. That, unless there is an urgent need of a health nature, I want them to be free to make

mistakes to exercise their own judgments. And I think I go by that philosophy. So Danny, what do you make of that answer? Actually I've got to say that surprisingly, maybe shockingly, that isn't wholly inaccurate. Wow, that is shocking. I was not expecting you to say that. Okay, look, some of it is obviously bullshit, the understanding part, the sensitivity. But my dad was there for us.

He did let us make mistakes. I mean, that's what made this thing so freaking complicated. He wasn't like a true cartoonish villain. Okay, yes, yes. But I mean, what strikes me is also what's not in that answer, right? Like there's nothing in there about being a role model or imparting any lessons. Oh, and I think this is a pretty big omission. There's nothing in there about providing love.

Okay, what's crazy is, and maybe this shows you one of the big effects of having Richard Jacobs as my father, I did not notice that he didn't mention love. Yes, I would. Well, I think that speaks for itself. It sure does. Well, okay, listen, back in the courtroom, the lawyer then asked my dad about his weak points. I suppose I make mistakes like most parents.

I do my best when it comes to a decision as far as the boys are concerned and occasionally I'm wrong. I think it's very difficult. I haven't given it a lot of thought as to any specific weak points. I think I'm a good father. I think perhaps even better than most fathers I've seen. I go with them to the J. I help my son with science fair projects. I go to watch their basketball games and their baseball games. I've always shown support for the things

they're interested in, and I've let them know and shown them affection. I think the idea of children need praise and they need affection, and they wanna know that what they've done is right. And I also tell them when I think I've done something wrong and allow them to express anger at me if they feel anger. Okay, so here again, I have to say my dad did show us affection.

He did show interest in us and support our passions. He was there for a lot of our activities and everything. Yeah, I mean, here's what I remember though, about when he would show up for those activities, like at our orchestra concerts, for example. He'd show up maybe 30 seconds before the concert started. And there wouldn't be any good seats left. But he didn't sit in the back.

I know you're going with this. He would take a folding chair and like drag it along the ground. Just creating this huge... Oh, and he would plop the chair and like drag it along the ground. And then he would... Just creating this huge... Oh, and he would plop the chair like right in front of everybody. Right in the middle of the aisle, actually. Yes, yes, exactly. And then he would be carrying this giant like round paper grocery bag

full of newspapers, which he would then proceed to read, you know, while we're playing Edelweiss, like throughout the whole freaking concert. But he was there, Darren. He did show up. That he was. He was not an absent father. I'm starting to think that your standards have maybe gotten a little fried. Fair enough. But on top of that, did you notice that your dad's answer to this question about his weak points involved him pivoting to what a great dad he is? I mean, I know we're trying to be objective here, but come on. No, no, totally.

And also, the idea that he would ever tell us when he'd done something wrong is laughable. Yes, yes. I mean, look, this is a performance, right? But it's actually a pretty good one. And I think that that's my big takeaway from this part of his testimony is that it speaks to what your mom was up against.

What do you mean? Well, he's a brilliant legal mind. We already know that. And we also know he's willing to fight dirty. But this is a reminder that he can put on a good show. He's got that charm and an instinct for how to present himself. If you don't know the real Richard Jacobs,

he could seem like a pretty good guy. And that makes him quite formidable, I think. Yeah, no, I get it. And his performance is important because of what's at stake here. Like, it's not just him winning or losing. It's me, it's my brother. Yes, and that is something I don't want us to lose sight of as we get into this, you know? Two kids are being dragged through this for years,

all while they're just trying to live their lives. Wait, are you talking about me? Yeah, you. Danny Jacobs. You're one of their lives. Wait, are you talking about me? Yeah, you. Oh, oh god. Danny Jacobs. Oh man, the stakes are high. I mean, this is your life. Oh, Jesus. How are you going to turn out?

I mean, I'm looking at it, and it ain't pretty. And now, a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by HelloFresh. Happy holidays, Danny Jacobs. Oh, back at you, dude. Here's one thing that I know about the holidays. They're way too busy, man. I don't have time to do all the things I'm stressed out. But you know what makes me less stressed? Do tell. HelloFresh. HelloFresh

makes mealtimes manageable. It saves me from like having to search for recipes or grocery shopping. I'm terrible at grocery shopping. I just pick my meals and everything I need is delivered directly to my door. Yeah, and here's the other thing. If you're traveling for the holidays or just too busy to cook at home, you can even skip a week's delivery if you need to. Like, there really are no commitments. It's amazing. And by the way, Green Chef is also now owned by HelloFresh.

And with such a wide array of meal plans to choose from, there is literally something for everybody. I love switching between the brands and now our listeners can enjoy both brands at a discount with us. So I recently tried the chili chili bang bang chicken, which I admit I tried because the name made me laugh, but it was pretty phenomenal. I mean it came with scallion rice, roasted green beans, it was like really flavorful. I can't recommend it enough. Get 10 free meals at hellofresh.com slash free destroy. Applied across seven boxes, new subscribers only, varies by plan.

That's 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com slash free destroy. HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. Well, let's move on to the second main issue. How about we start with these proceedings? Which was where your dad was psychologically evaluated by Dr. Eugene Kisling. Great name. He was the chief of the St. Louis Juvenile Court Diagnostic Treatment Center.

Dr. Kisling, as a result of your evaluation of Mr. Jacobs, what did you conclude in terms of his perspective with regards to this proceeding? I had the impression that I was dealing here with a legal advocate who was more considerate of and concerned with the kinds of procedures and evidence that are helpful to his case than with open and straightforward feelings and concerns with regard to the children. This is not to say that Mr. Jacobs does not have a genuine

concern toward his children. This is not to say that Mr. Jacobs does not have a genuine concern toward his children. I believe that is present. However, he gets caught up with the competitive adversarial role to the extent that he may lose objectivity and be overly focused with winning. What did you see with respect to interpersonal relationships? I have testified to dominance, assertiveness, extremely convinced of his own correctness in a position, highly self-confident, thinks possibly to a point of not considering other

people's positions or evidence contrary to his positions with sufficient objectivity. Did you come to any conclusion whether or not Mr. Jacobs exhibits a personality disorder? I believe his personality traits revealed several kinds of personality disorders. And did you form an opinion with respect to the degree of empathy Mr. Jacobs has? Yes. He's a very extroverted individual and has a good deal of underlying emotion and sensitivity, and expressed that when dealing with things over which he pretty much had control. But when he's not in this kind of control,

I think he has the tendency to focus on his own needs to maintain those controls, and is below average in a degree of sensitivity to the other person's needs and feelings when in direct conflict with his own goal toward which he is striving. Below average in a degree of sensitivity to others, you think? I have to say, like, at this point,

even if I'm trying to be objective, your dad is not coming off very well here. Listen, it's never ideal when a doctor testifies that you have multiple personality disorders. Yes, that's right. Anyway, counselor, I'm sorry for interrupting. Please proceed. Did you formulate an opinion with regard to any limitations Mr. Jacobs has as a parent?

I think he has several rather severe limitations. One would be, I believe, that he would continue to keep the children involved in the marriage of this dispute and battle consistent with his dedication to win. I don't think he would, by his own statement, ever accept any ruling or any arrangement that he doesn't consider to be in accordance with what he considers to be right. Did he make that statement to you, Doctor?

Yes. He predicted if he did not get full legal custody of the children, they would spend the rest of their lives in court. Boy, wow. Aside from that being rather chilling, I am fascinated that he had that strategy going in. Like that he knew he was gonna drag this thing out forever unless he got his way.

And you know what? It was something he made very, very clear to my mom. And to hear that, let's shift to later in the proceedings. So my mom is on the stand, and she talks about this one time my dad showed up at a doctor's appointment she was at with my brother and me. Did that at least go smoothly? No, not at all.

Richard came to the office, and he'd sit there and harass me while we were waiting, and this was in front of Danny while we were waiting. What would he say that was troublesome to you? Well, he would sit there and say things. He would say things like, I'm going to win this case. I'm going to take this all the way to the Supreme Court. I'm just going to do everything I can legally and I'm going to make you broke and your mother broke. That's when he showed me the article.

Yes, so the article. Apparently your dad had actually cut out some story from a newspaper or a magazine or something that showed how much some other lady had been forced to pay in a drawn out divorce proceeding. My God. He brought receipts. It's like he was entering things into evidence directly to her in just like her daily life. in a drawn-out divorce proceeding. My God. He brought receipts. Yes. It's like he was entering things into evidence directly to her in just like her daily life.

Oh my God, I'm like trying to picture this moment. You know, your mom's there in the waiting room with you and your brother and your dad. He's like right up in her face going on and on about how much this is going to cost her. It's insane. It is. I cannot begin to guess what those kinds of threats

would do to your mom. Well, we've got receipts too, Darren, so we don't have to guess. Has Mrs. Jacobs ever discussed with you her desire to be a man? Yes. And what has she told you? She said men get everything. They get to make all the decisions. They get to decide what has to be done. She related to me how her father would exclude her

from conversations with her uncle on financial matters, that she was just a little girl and insignificant. So your mom was so overwhelmed by the situation that she started fantasizing about being a man. Jesus, yeah. But you know what? I'm sure she wasn't alone in that. Like, I don't think it's a stretch to say

that countless women have probably lamented the rights and privileges afforded to the male sex that aren't alone in that. Like, I don't think it's a stretch to say that countless women have probably lamented the rights and privileges afforded to the male sex that aren't extended to them. Well, yeah, that's definitely true. And yet, you know, in a testament to your mom's strength in the face of all of this from your dad, as we talked about, she did not wave the white flag, right? She fought back. Yeah, and she fought back in a way that I think is super interesting. And we asked her about that in a recent interview.

Well, it's basically because I wanted to find out what was going on in my case. I didn't really understand all these lawsuits that Richard was throwing at me, and I just wanted to go to school to maybe find out a little bit more about the law. So I decided to take some courses in paralegal studies. And so I went and I took the whole set of courses and I found that I did really well at them. I got A's in almost everything, which I didn't get A's. I got B's mostly in college.

And I just loved it. And it's all the research and all that, I just loved it. And writing the briefs and everything. So that's basically why I, it started out because I wanted to learn something about what was going on in my case and then ended up, I had a career. I gotta say, it's kind of heartening to hear that my mom found her joy professionally. Well yeah, especially because money had had for so long been this issue for her, you know, ever since she left your dad. Well, it was an issue because my dad made it an issue.

Well, yes, yes, yes. Which actually brings us to the third main topic of these court proceedings. Right. So here was the deal. Your dad testified in court that he essentially had no money. Yeah, he said he made almost nothing as a lawyer and was basically supported by his parents. And we think he was making that argument as a way of trying to avoid paying any kind of

child support. And we think that because right off the bat, things don't seem to add up. Like when he talked about some ads he had purchased to support his legal work. Yeah. He said he spent $12,000 on them. $12,000 back in the early 1980s for a one-man local law firm? I mean, that seems suspicious. It doesn't make any sense, but that's not all.

After reviewing your dad's tax returns, your mom's lawyers reveal that he had gotten a rather sizable cash gift from your grandfather. Order in the court! Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Harbett, that's embarrassing. Derek, shut up. And you somehow, in April of 1986, had no idea whatsoever you had been paid $145,000? As far as I know, no. I did not. The first time I found out about it was at the time of my dad's deposition.

But, quite contrary for 1986, you filed an extension for income tax. I had nothing to do with anything else. See, when you file it... I asked, did you file? May my client finish his answer before being interrupted with another question, Your Honor? The request is denied. The answer is not responsive to the question. Did you not file an extension for your 1986 income tax return? Yes, I did.

And your first knowledge of your income for 1986 of $146,675 was on July 3rd, 1987? The day of my dad's deposition, yes. And in barely over a month, you spent that entire amount, Mr. Jacobs. Did you not? No. It was spent at one time. I went over to the bank and got cashier's checks and... Thank you, Mr. Jacobs.

Did you offer to pay down any of Mrs. Jacobs' debts with that money? No, I did not. Did you offer to leave any of that money in a bank account for Mrs. Jacobs? Why? I asked, did you or did you not? No, I didn't. And let me get this straight, Mr. Jacobs. Why? I asked, did you or did you not? No, I didn't. And let me get this straight, Mr. Jacobs. You had negligible income in 1986?

That's correct. And so far in 1987, you've received nothing from your law license? No. I have no net income from my law practice in 1987 that I can think of. Okay, okay, Jesus Christ, we gotta step in here. $145,000?

I know. I looked it up. That's like half a million bucks today. I know. And he spent that all in one fell swoop? I know. How, Danny? I don't know.

That was gonna be my question. He intimates that it was on advertising for his legal work? Which at this point, let's not forget, he did not have a license to practice law in the state of Missouri, right? It had been taken away from him. So, so how does that make any sense whatsoever? Okay, so the way I see it, there are two possibilities. One is that he lied about it and he didn't actually spend the money. Crazy, but possible, I have to say. But the second possibility is he did spend it.

But then that would mean that he spent all that money on ads and it didn't work at all. It didn't end up in resulting in any legal income. Which is also crazy. Yeah, so look, the bottom line is we might not know exactly how, but clearly there are some shenanigans at play here. Something strange is afoot at the Circle K, Darren, and it is all so that he can avoid paying child support. Yeah. And then it gets even weirder.

So Mr. Jacobs, when you didn't have the money to pay for your own expenses, personal expenses, you had a housekeeper? We've always had a housekeeper once a week, and I need the money to- Mr. Jacobs, yes or no, did you hire a housekeeper? $30 for one day per week, yes. And did you hire someone, Mr. Jacobs, to cut the grass?

Yes, I have. Every three weeks they cut the grass. And did you hire someone to come in and continue to make repairs on your home? Well, yes, because the home needs repairs and it's been necessary. Yes. And you didn't cut your own grass, Mr. Jacobs. I don't have a lawnmower, Mrs. Mailey. And how much total advertisement did you either spend or incur since 1985? Well, I couldn't tell you right off the bat. It's been substantial.

They've run two, two thousand to twenty five hundred a month, something like that. Mr. Jacobs, do you have outside of what's been filed here, a monthly budget that you follow? No, I try to conserve money by using parts from the junkyard for my car. OK, I mean, oh, God. Richard, you are really depriving yourself. First of all, it's bullshit. My dad, I just don't think my dad had any idea how to put used car parts into his car.

No fucking way. Just such a random thing to bring up as a demonstration of your frugality. Of all the things that he's frugal about, as we well know. But overall, I think he's really being dressed down. He's just being taken apart by these guys. By the way, I also feel compelled to remind you that we are taking zero creative license here. Yeah, this is 100% from the transcript. Your team requested a ride, but this time not from you. It's through their Uber Teen account. It's an Uber account that

allows your team to request a ride under your supervision with live trip tracking and highly rated drivers. Add your team to your Uber account today. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply, details at Fizz.ca. Remarkable, remarkable. Okay, so from a 30,000 foot perspective, one of two things is true. Either your dad has no money or he's hiding it. And so in an attempt to figure that out, my mom's lawyers dig in.

Which opens up this whole world about Sid's money and your dad's advertising. And it's all because my dad wants primary custody. But he's broke and has no job and can't pay his bills according to him. So, I mean, you know, one plus one equals four thousand, I guess. That's right, exactly. You know, one of the things that this whole custody battle shows, I think, is your dad's disorder is like on full display. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, he wants to get away with shit, and he wants to retain his privacy.

Yep. But he's under oath. You know, he has to know that he's likely going to get exposed, but he doesn't care because he just, he wants to win his privacy, but he's under oath. He has to know that he's likely gonna get exposed, but he doesn't care because he just, he wants to win at all costs. I mean, what a dance he's trying to pull off with all this. Totally. Look, divorces happen all the time that are like mostly amicable.

There was a version of this that could have happened in which no one looked under the hood, but your dad wanted to win too badly to let that happen. And by the way, how do we know that it's ultimately all about the child support? Because my dad admits it. Richard, if you were given primary custody, how would you be able to support the children? Well, hopefully I would be able to pay off the existing bills, start advertising.

With what? With what? Well, I'm hoping to get a loan to help me pay off the... My question is, why can't any money that you would use to pay off advertising bills be used to pay child support? Because it... What's the point of paying off child support when future income would be more important? Well...

The question is, if I pay child support, I would have nothing left to advertise with. To earn more money, to pay more child support, if that's what you're asking me to do. Let me ask it this way. Somehow, if you had custody of the children, you would find a way to support them? Somehow, I would take that responsibility and be responsible for those children. But you couldn't pay child support to Mrs. Jacobs if she had custody. You couldn't find a way somehow to do that? Well, I think that's an unfair area.

This is like some real life Columbo shit right here. It is, man. Those shows really like nailed it. Also I can't imagine how infuriating all of this was to hear like from your mom's perspective. I mean, she's just trying to live her life, and this guy patently refuses to help. Not only that, but as the proceedings drag on and on and on, my dad starts ratcheting things up. For example, during the trial, my mom talks about how one Sunday evening she tried to

pick my brother and I up from my dad's house, and she encountered a new obstacle. What did you observe when you got to the marital home? There was a man in a car with a gun blocking out. A gun? Did you see the gun? I don't know if I saw it. Wait a second. From your memory, Sandy, did you see a gun? I don't know if it was that time, but I had seen the gun.

I'm talking about that time by the day. I had seen the gun. I'm talking about that time. What did you observe? Well, the man, he got out of the car and he said that he was a policeman and that he would arrest me if I set foot on the property. And because of that, did you go on the property? No. Did you get your boys on that date? No.

Now, the thing is, my dad, as he always does, has an explanation. Sandy would not agree to my having the children any more than every Wednesday and every other Sunday, only until 8 o'clock Sunday evening. The children were absolutely getting frustrated. They kept telling me, well, dad, just tell her we want to spend time with you. And I said, why don't you tell her? They said, we told her, but she didn't care. She said no, she doesn't want to talk about it.

It got to the point where Sandy would come over at 8 o'clock. She would scream, bang on the door, say, I want my children, let them out, let them out. They would run upstairs to the bedroom. I couldn't take it and they couldn't take it, so I called a company called Special Investigations who provided off-duty police and I asked them to come. I felt like that was the only thing I could do.

She told me on the phone she was going to cause confrontations. I was begging her not to come over. She would still come over and sit in front of the house for a couple of hours. One time they told me and I saw her once as we were coming back and I turned and went the other direction because I wanted to do everything to prevent any further trauma to the kids and to me and there was nothing else that I could think of. Oh can you hear the sound of that tiny violin? He's being hounded by the master of chaos that is Sandy Jacobs. I mean you and your brother must have been cowering in fear. But you see what he's

doing right? Oh yeah yeah and the thing is again if you think about this you know objectively then maybe he's persuasive. Maybe he'll make you think twice about who's in the right here. And if he can accept just a little bit of doubt, then he can win. And also more broadly, he's executing a classic Richard Jacobs move. The arms guards, the financial shell game, the refusal to pay child support. His play, like it often is, is to make things so difficult, so unbearable that she'll just give up.

She'll just say, you know what, maybe I don't need full custody. Yes, but again, Sandy is stronger than we think. To her immense credit, she keeps fighting. And it's especially admirable when I remember ultimately what it is that she's fighting for these kids. You and your brother. And this is where we want to shift gears a bit here in this episode.

And instead of dealing with those three main issues anymore of the trial itself, let's drill down on the collateral damage. Namely, you, sir. Well, that sounds like a goddamn blast. So why don't we just focus our attention on the things that you were experiencing during this period, now of course framed through the window of these contemporaneous documents. Hey, don't threaten me with a good time. So aside from the court transcripts, we also have your mom's journal.

Yeah, so as things continued to escalate, my mom's lawyer told her to start writing down every single thing that happened, And she gave us that journal. And looking over it now, the sheer volume of it all is hard to fathom. It's a period I remember less as memories and more as feelings. Oh, which ones? Like, which feelings? Dread and Fear. March 21, 1986. Richard took kids from bus. April 13, 1986 Richard took kids from my house while I had a sitter. May 17, 1986 Armed guards at Richard's house.

May 22, 1986 September 1, June 25, November 3, Principal called police. December 17, Danny started talking about habeas corpus. Danny knows Nana is visiting and wants to know if he'll be able to see her. June 3rd, Danny called and told me to bring lunch money to his school. He said, Dad refused to give him any money.

July 10th, Richard arrested for shoplifting. The kids had to go to the police station. Do you remember that? I don't. The secretary to Richard's lawyer took you to her house and I had to go pick you guys up there. Jesus. 1987, January 7, March 24, June 22,

went to pick up son from camp, and he wasn't there. Richard takes kids to Canada. Does not return on 4th of July to them. He took the kids again. I try calling them. It's my birthday. They didn't call me. Then he called me from an unlisted number

using an English accent. April 9, May 7, I was served with a $100,000 lawsuit at work from Richard. Kids didn't come home. Kids didn't come home. Kids didn't come home. I'm so sad. How is this going to end? Oh God, I need a shower.

Oh, geez, like, what are you thinking about when you're listening to all of that? I mean, the thing that hits me most is how freaking tumultuous it sounds. But in the moment, it was just my normal routine. That is crazy. Well, yeah, from today's vantage point, like, I'm struck by the relent, like, just the crazy relentlessness of it. Every day there was something.

The frequency, as you could tell, just got quicker and quicker. Yes, and I think it really illustrates that, you know, yes, the divorce proceedings went on for years, but what does that actually mean practically? I think that's what comes through in this, you know? Like, while they're in court, there are camps and school days, little league games, piano lessons. It means life continues.

In spite of all the drama. And speaking of, so Danny Jacobs, there's one event during this period that really, really stands above the rest. And it's an event that we have thus far been avoiding. Yeah. Do you want to talk about it? No.

No, but I will. So, okay, look, the thing that happened happened when I was seven years old. And what happened was I got kidnapped by my dad. So that's a really big thing to say. And what exactly do you remember about that? Honestly, just flashes. I mean, I remember I was in a parking garage with my mom.

My cousin Leslie was there too, I think. She's not even in my flashes of memory, but I've been told that she was there. And I do remember though, my dad showing up and trying to grab me. I remember trying to run away. I remember being put in a car. And then that's kind of it. Just these little snippets, these little clips of what I assume was a horrible moment in my life. Yeah. Even just talking about it, you sound very distanced from it.

Well, I am. I mean, it's hard not to be when my memory is kind of so spotty. Right. Well, what I think we should do is this. So I think, you know, we've heard your perspective as spotty as it is, but we should kind of like try to rush them on this thing together to see if we can get somewhere with it. And I think we should start with your mom's side of the story, which actually is also your cousin Leslie's. And though your cousin wasn't deposed in court, we did interview her for the podcast.

Somehow your mom had to pick something up from work or something. And so we drove there and then we were going to go to the zoo or something afterwards. And what happened next, Sandy? So I went over there and Richard must have been following me because he came down to Clayton and also I had my niece with me from Kansas City who was either 11 or 12 at the time. And we're going underground parking garage and. We didn't know Richard was even there.

I thought he was at work. I didn't even know where he was. Danny was, we were out of the car already walking up to your office, walking out to get to the elevator and then um... Then all of a sudden, yeah, you hear screeching tires. He pulled right in the front of my car and blocked it so I wouldn't be able to leave if I decided to leave. So he started saying, it's my turn, it's my time with Danny. You have to go along with my schedule. And then he heard a door flung open.

And he started chasing Danny around the parking lot. What was Danny doing specifically? Running away from him. Do you remember what I was doing? Was I screaming? You were screaming. You were kicking. You were trying to get away.

You said you didn't wanna go with him. And he grabbed you and threw you into his car and then took off. I think what might have triggered it, and I have a vague memory of this, is that I think it was his weekend and She asked to trade days with him so that we could be together and I think that was part of the

setup of it all Why he was doing it on that day, right? Because he felt like it on that day. Right. Because he felt like it was his weekend or whatever. Right. Right. Had they actually traded, or did he not agree to that? Do you know?

No, he didn't agree to it, from what I understand. And we just kept you. Wow. Yeah. I mean, thoughts? Well, look, I've heard that version of the story before. You know, frankly, my mom doesn't tell it differently now than she did in court all those years ago.

But it still just kind of feels like it happened to somebody else. You know, though I do want to say one thing that struck me this time is what Leslie said, that my dad had not agreed to switching the date. That struck me too. Yeah, it's like, you know, it doesn't excuse his behavior, obviously, but it does give like this, it was his time, it gives his perspective just like a little bit of ammunition. Yeah, and speaking of my dad's perspective, let's now hear his side of things, which he lays out while on the stand. There was a piano lesson scheduled. The piano lesson had been scheduled to begin at 2.45. Sandy changed the piano lesson so that it began at 1.30

and was finished by 2.15. That would not have been significant, but for the fact that according to the schedule on that day, I was to have Danny and I was going to pick him up at camp after camp was over. As it turned out, I was driving, I believe on Hanley and Clayton, and I saw her car with Danny driving by and I couldn't believe that that was Sandy with Danny because he was supposed to be in camp. I followed the car and went to the Pierre Laclede garage.

And have you ever followed your wife on any other occasion? Since 1984, only on two occasions. One to a pizza restaurant and the other time to my parents house after the Yamaha music. Now back to the Pierre Le Cleid incident. Please continue. I drove into the parking lot. I knew how much Danny was looking forward to his swimming. He was going to go swimming that day, and that was the last activity of the day. I knew he was looking forward to the music lesson.

At that time, I did not know that Sandy had changed the music lesson earlier. I didn't know anything about that. Sandy got out of the car with Danny, and they were walking, and I stopped, and I said, I'm taking Danny back to camp, and I'm taking him to his music lesson. And was it your day?

It was my day. It was on the schedule. Sandy was well aware. And what happened then? Well, at that point, Sandy started yelling, help, help, he's kidnapping my son, help me, somebody please help me, he's kidnapping my son. I picked up Danny. I had him under my arm

and I put him in the car. Danny was terrified from all the yelling and the screaming and everything that was going on, and we drove to one exit and then we couldn't get out that way, and so we drove around to the other exit and we left. And did you hear Danny say, Dad, it's Mommy's turn today? No sir. Danny doesn't use those words and I thought it was very funny when I heard it.

Danny, as we drove away, he could see I was very shaken up, upset. He said, Dad, don't worry about it. It will be okay. Was Danny crying? Yes. Danny was crying. And did he tell you why he was crying? Yes. Danny was crying. And did he tell you why he was crying?

No. He didn't say exactly. But it was very obvious he was shaken by having his mother yell and scream that I was kidnapping him. Well, that seems completely and totally reasonable. Doesn't it? You see, Darren, I was upset because I was worried about my dad. Makes perfect sense. Who wouldn't be upset by that? You know, one observation I do want to make, and I know this isn't limited to my own family here, but it is striking to me that parents and divorces use the phrase, it's my day or it's his mother's day. Like the ownership of the day belongs to the parents,

the kids are like property. I mean, that's kind of frankly how it feels. That is a fascinating point, Danny. But you're right, even the language used in these kinds of situations puts the kids like right in the back seat. But anyway, as for the rest of your dad's testimony, is it safe to say that it doesn't feel as, I don't know, realistic as your mom

and cousin's version of events? Yeah, I mean, look, even if I'm an impartial judge, it's really not believable to think that I was crying because my mom was screaming I was being kidnapped as opposed to the fact that I was, you know, actually being kidnapped. Right, right. So now we've gotten both sides

of this critical moment in your life, but there is one more. Yeah, so when I was first going through these documents, I was of course interested in my parents' version of this event. But something about it, as you can probably tell, didn't really permeate my understanding of the experience.

I couldn't trust them, really. Well, that makes sense. They both have a pretty strong incentive for their own perspectives. Yeah. But then I saw that there was a witness. And I literally gasped when I read that that witness took the stand.

Yeah, well, because that meant you had someone without an agenda, you know, able to talk through exactly what she saw. What a gift, really. Yeah, totally. So what I think I'd like to do here rather than have an actor read her account, I think I'd like to read it myself. Now, just to set this up, this is a woman who just happened to be there, you know, happened to witness all of this and was subpoenaed to take part in the hearing.

Her name is Patricia Cunningham. I was in the parking garage at the Pierre Laclede parking garage. I work on the eighth floor there. I was going to my lunch hour and was in the underground garage and pulling out of the garage to go to lunch, and I thought there was a traffic jam. I couldn't move, and I stopped and noticed a woman screaming, somebody help me, somebody help me. And the lawyer says, question, did you subsequently see the woman? Answer, yes. She was in the car in front of me and was stopped, as I said, and a gentleman got out of a car. The woman screamed loud enough I could hear her through the car window. I have had a lot of training with the Red Cross. I thought somebody had been hit by a car, and I got out of the car to help, and when

I got out of the car I noticed both the man and woman looking to the side in one direction, so I looked to where they were looking and I noticed both were looking at a boy, a small boy, six or seven. Well, the lady was still screaming for help and the man was standing there and they were both looking at the boy and the little boy was crying, crouched behind a car and he peeked out from behind the car and saw the man and ran behind another car, behind two to three cars and when the gentleman saw him, he walked very briskly to the boy and picked the boy up.

The little boy was screaming, no, no, leave me alone. The boy was screaming, and I assumed screaming at the man holding him, saying, no, no, leave me alone, and was kicking. And the man had a hold of him very snugly, like this, right under his arm, and his legs were kicking out at the man, a hold of him very snugly like this right under his arm

and his legs were kicking out at the man and his car door was still open and he put the boy in the front seat and he slammed the door and he put the car in gear and took off with the tires squealing. I haven't seen anyone drive like that in two years so I thought he was drunk. I turned to the woman screaming and I said, call the police. I told the woman at the gate that there was a problem that a kid had been kidnapped and she shouldn't let anyone leave the garage. Then I found out that there's another security gate and I got out and as I got out of my car I heard the tires again and they were coming further back in the garage and I thought it was the same car because I had never heard anyone drive like that

before. I went back to the security gate and thought it was the same car because I had never heard anyone drive like that before. I went back to the security gate and said, I think this car kidnapping, the kidnapping is coming back. Please don't let anyone out. The lady in the car said she would wait and not move. And then the car came back and I was standing back next to the security gate because I had just spoke to the woman I saw with the boy. I was standing that far from him because I was on the sidewalk and the car window is here. And I saw her and I saw the boy about three times, try to unlock the car and the latch and pulled the handle. And each time the boy did it,

the man in the car put his arm around his neck and he pushed back off and the boy was crying and he was saying, I wanna to get out, I want to get out. And his face was puffy and he was very upset. Question, did you hear any statement being made with regard to anyone stating they had custody of the boy or who the boy should be with at that particular time? Answer, yes. After I saw the boy trying to get out, I went around and talked to the man

and said, what's going on? And he said, this is my son and I'm supposed to have him now. And the boy kept on saying, daddy, daddy, daddy, I'm sure you're wrong. It's mom's turn now. Question, what happened after that? Answer, the man said, don't listen to him.

He's just a boy. It's my turn to have the child. So I said, something is not right. The boy is trying to get out of the car. He's very upset. And the woman is screaming, and I said, why don't you wait? The police will be here,

and you can tell them this is your son. You know, why don't you just wait? Because I said, I don't think that's normal. I never in my life have seen a child try to get away from his father like that. And I saw the woman screaming like that and said, wait for the police. There are two doors down and we'll be right here. And he waved some papers and said, I don't have to wait. And I said to the woman who was at the gate, I guess it was a problem. Like the woman at the gate saw me talking to the gentleman inside the car and told me they would wait, but they didn't.

And when the arm of the gate went up, the man with the boy in some ways, I have been hung up on this incident for like 35 years now, and I, uh, I couldn't trust my memory of it. And my mom and dad had their versions, and I didn't exactly know how it went down, but I did know that it was so incredibly painful. Now it feels like I know the truth. Like, I mean, this woman had absolutely no reason to embellish a single detail. Like she was in the wrong place at the wrong time,

basically, and was traumatized herself, no doubt, by this thing. Which I find completely understandable. Yeah, me too. And of course, you know, look, we actually tried to reach out to her. Sadly, she never responded. Though honestly, I'm not sure what

she would have been able to provide that's not already there in the court transcript. Well, I think what I wanted actually was not more information, but to thank her. She has no idea of the fact that her testimony all these years later has been so, so profoundly impactful on me. Can you speak to that?

Like, to the impact? Uh, yeah, well, I mean, I've always said that my father loved me very deeply. He just didn't know a healthy way to love. And I still believe that to be true. So given that, there's a certain amount of forgiveness I can have for a lot of the things he did, but this one, hearing her account, it just feels unforgivable.

Yes, I mean, as a father myself, I could not agree with you more. I mean, our number one job, aside from loving our kids, is to keep them safe. And your dad not only failed you in that regard, I mean, he literally did the opposite. Yeah, he made me so afraid. You know what else struck me?

You and I, our older children, our sons, are both seven years old right now. Yeah, I mean they are literally the exact age Oh my god were when this happened. Yeah, holy shit. I had not I had not thought about that Can you imagine our kids going through anything like this? You okay you yeah, I will be yeah Yeah, let's just keep going. You know, I'm thinking back to where we started this thing, and I was glib at the top about your father and his capacity to be a parent. But I think going through this, it's pretty clear, even to an impartial observer, that the answer is no.

Your father did not have the capacity to be a good good parent. And then of his psychological state, damaged clearly. And finally number three, the whole money thing like everything else, full of lies and manipulation. Yeah it's a it's a pretty much a wipeout from my dad's perspective. Right and so perhaps unsurprisingly, the divorce trial ends with a victory for your mom, as she is granted full custody. But, as is always the case with Richard Jacobs, the saga of the divorce does not end there, not by a long shot.

No, yeah, that's right. And in our next episode, we're going to enter a chapter of our lives, both of our lives, in which you and I have a fair amount of memory. Yes, when even the final gavel doesn't end the conflict and your dad brings new levels of destruction. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Grotsky, executive produced by Michael Grant Terry, and edited, sound designed, and music supervised by Dashiell Reinhardt and Robert Grigsby Wilson. Original music by Jesse Terry. Starring in alphabetical order Eugene Byrd, Jonathan Kaplan, Katie Parker, Emily Pendergast, Murray Sterling. If you knew Richard Jacobs. It's Maury.

Maury. Maury Sterling. If you knew Richard Jacobs and have a story to tell, please reach out to us at Iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Additionally, if you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. And of course, you can find us on Instagram and Twitter as well. How to Destroy Everything is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.