How To Destroy Everything - How To Destroy Everything Presents: Toughen Up - Episode 5: Homeless and The Edges of Town

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

We now find Lisa, Sheila and Stephen taking refuge with their Uncle John in Washington State, where young Stephen learns some hard life lessons on a construction site. They return to Mission Viejo, just in time to lose whatever housing Maureen had established, as she enters psychiatric treatment. Sheila and Stephen are taken in by a compassionate family, until Maureen is ready to start over, moving them all to the far edge of town. We then hear Darren, as a parent, express concern over “little Stephen” while Danny and Stephen bond over their shared clowning skills as a survival mechanism. Then, our hosts explore the scars and strengths of homelessness, agree on “the Devil you know,” and finally ask Sandy’s take on Toughen Up! If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything and please don't forget to share, rate, and review! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tuffin' Up, written and performed by Stephen Kiernan. Episode 5, Homeless and the Edges of Town. The next day, we floated back over the border to Uncle John and Aunt May's, and as promised, I slept in a bed with my Uncle Mike, and I learned what it was like to work construction at 11 and a half years old. I learned how to sit in the back of a truck with angry men three times my size wearing Pendleton shirts, and how to be very quiet. I learned that when you get to the work site,

it was important to keep moving, and how to crawl under a house and keep touching things to make it look like you were working. I learned that when your Uncle John is running a little hot and attempts to back a ditch witch off of a trailer, and mistakenly embeds the trenching blades into a tree and guts that tree in front of all the other workers, that somehow it is your fault, and that when he tells you to get into a rowboat over there on the edge of the worksite near the pond, you do it. Even though you've never even been near a rowboat in your life and you just start rowing because Uncle John told you to

and you got the feeling that he couldn't stand the sight of you. I learned that when you come around a corner and you see these lily pads and there's a light rain falling and there's mist coming off the water and in the middle of those lily pads there's a swan. I learned that when swans turn very slowly and lock eyes with you and then go That means they're just about to attack you and I learned that swans as beautiful as they are, are not effing around, and really make no distinction between you and the boat you're in, and so they repeatedly hammer the

side of the metal hull with their beak like a machine gun, until you suddenly learn that you can row, actually. You can row really fast. We stayed with Uncle John and Aunt May for a very short and a very long month. While we were gone, we learned that our mother had left the travelodge and had moved us to a remote suburban frontier outpost on the far edge of town, on the border between Mission Viejo and what would eventually become a liso viejo. Still a viejo, mind you, which means old, but we were moving into the New World Condominiums. New World. No shit.

We now lived so far out into the open grasslands that surrounded all things viejo. We were considered on the menu should a lioness wander off the nearby animal preserve, home to the horrible tiger mauling, the violent chimp attack, the hippo standoff with the super sad ending, and the Asian elephant that crushed a game warden escaped the facility and was finally dramatically captured as she attempted to enter

the 405 freeway. The day we arrived at the condo, there was no one home. The front door was unlocked, and all the windows were open. Our few belongings were scattered amongst fast food wrappers, and it looked like our mother had been kidnapped after a brief struggle and a quarter pounder with cheese. Later that day, Frank and my mom finally rolled up, both looking a little worse for wear. Frank told us they had gone to the hospital because mom had taken a lot of pills in the hopes that she wouldn't wake up,

but that she was okay now. She stayed okay for about the next two months, then suddenly told us that she was planning to fly to Texas to go live and be okay with her friend Gloria. Sheila and I were told we were going to be okay because Dad would be coming to live with us, which it turns out was not okay with our Dad because he already had some sweet digs, sleeping on a cot under a table, with a handgun.

And so we were now going to be totally okay living on our own at age 12 and 15, which was not okay at all with our 19 year old sister Lisa, who we found out later had been attempting for some time to win custody of us, but because she was so young, they wouldn't let her do it. Okay? So as soon as mom headed to Texas, it was back to Mission Viejo proper for me and Sheila, where we moved in with her best friend, another Lisa, and her family. her best friend, another Lisa, and her family. Presiding over it all was Lisa's mother Dee, a loving and reserved steady hand, who my father, with a lump in his throat, would forever refer to as a living saint.

We would also be living with Valerie and Vanessa, the twins who were my age, and Dee's steady boyfriend Howard, who repaired conveyor belts at egg factories. I slept on their couch for about the first month, next to their stand-up piano in the living room, and then eventually I graduated to the room just off the utility porch, sleeping on sort of a fold-out couch. But compared to the rollaway bed with the bar in my back, the top bunk at the hippie hotel, and sharing the sheets with my Uncle Mike, it might as well have been a suite at the Ritz-Carlton.

After a short stint in Galveston, we learned that our mother had a reservation for the flight deck at UCLA. She was going to be staying there for a while, and we were told she'd be working with a psychologist named Shirley, who would eventually teach my mom how to say, I'm terrific. I like me. I'm good people We would go and visit mom where she was staying in a campus dorm room while she was in treatment double majoring in shame and low self-esteem She would sit on the edge of the bed in her little cell feet not touching the floor and insist. I'm terrific I like me I'm terrific.

I like me. I'm good people. But we could tell she wasn't buying it. I just remember my mother seeing me very small and terribly embarrassed by it all. After six months, mom graduated from the psych ward at UCLA and moved in with some family friends in Los Angeles, sort of an unofficial halfway house, until she could get on her feet again. Another six months passed, and it was finally time for her to come home and take another

run at this thing. In order to stay on brand, we would now be living on the other edge of town, on a street called Via Damasco, which wasn't as far out as the previous condo of the damned, but far out enough to be situated next to a meandering, overgrown ditch with a creek running through it. next to a meandering, overgrown ditch, with a creek running through it. When Mom came home and the three of us were suddenly living together again, Sheila and I wondered if things would ever be the same. But very shortly after we moved in, Mom gave us a note and told us there was a 7-Eleven at the corner, and we didn't even have to read it.

We knew what it said. We walked the note up to the 7-Eleven, put it on the counter, the guy opened it, and it read, please give my children two packages of Benson and Hedges menthol. Morning, Devlin, 837-7464. Benson and Hedges menthol? Things were looking up.

Mom had forsaken the deadly lucky strikes. Maybe I'm terrific. I like me. I'm good people. Was finally taking hold after all. After making a few trips to 7-11 over the following days, Sheila took me aside and told me, I don't think I want to do this anymore. I don't want to buy cigarettes for Mom.

They're bad for her. She told our mother this, and Mom seemed to understand. She understood enough that from that day forward, the note read, Please give my son two packages of Benson and Hedges menthol. Thank you, Maureen Devlin, 837-7464. But after a little while, I confess to Sheila, I don't think I wanna do this either. This isn't good for mom. Cigarettes are bad for her.

So the next time she gave me the note, I told my mom that I wasn't going to go buy her cigarettes anymore. I remember she quietly took the note back and folded it, put it down on the table, looked up, and dragging on her last cigarette said, that's okay honey. You know what? I'll go up the street and I'll get my own cigarettes. And I hope when I do, that I'm hit by a fucking truck. And that's when we knew she was back.

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And this is How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up. We're so excited to be talking today about this really fascinating episode. I have many questions. So do I. Despite its brevity, I found it to be packed with, as always, comedy, heartbreak, and everything in between. Yeah. Maybe let's go chronologically. Let me start with construction, with you doing construction.

So help me understand, I'm just very curious about a lot of the surrounding logistics. So what were your sisters doing when you were working construction? Pete I have no recollection of what they were doing during the day, but I know they were with my aunt during the day and our cousin. Jared Okay. Were they required to work? Pete I don't think so. It was pretty much, you know, when you're sleeping with one of the Kieran brothers, when you're sleeping with Uncle Mike in the bed and then Uncle John and you're up at like four and you just had to like pull your weight kind of thing.

Well, I'm wondering if they were sort of echoing the Kieran brothers, that is their own childhood, right? That's right. Yeah, like by the time, were you 11, 11 and a half, something 12? Yeah, yes. At the time, like, you know, I remember you said in an earlier episode, your dad was quite young when he was lowered into what?

A mine? A mine. A mine, yeah. So they probably were like, come on, slacker. It's good to work. Pretty much, and I know my uncle Dick, like when the boys got old enough, like, and this is uncle, anyway, that's coming soon.

But like if they missed their curfew and were home, you know, late, Uncle Dick would be awake and say, uh, okay guys, you know, that's all right. You were late, but you know, you know, hit the sack and then he would let them sleep for an hour and then wake them up and they literally had to clean the driveway with toothbrushes. Oh my God. up and they literally had to clean the driveway with toothbrushes. With toothbrushes? Oh my God. Yeah, they were out there at like one or two in the morning cleaning the driveway. So he would make it seem like he was like, yeah, it's fine.

Not fine, but just like, come on, that's not what we agreed to. But they had no idea what was coming. And it's so cruel to let them only sleep for like an hour. Oh no, that's right. He was able to work the REM cycle torture. Yeah, exactly. I thought that cleaning things with toothbrushes was something that only happened in movies. I didn't know that real people actually made others do that. These are my...

These are your people. These are my people. Thank you. Did you feel... How long were you doing that for exactly? Oh God, we were only there I think all of a month. So I was there. It probably felt like a year. It felt like a year. And I'm telling you, I was so scared. And I was small and scared of all these guys. And my uncle John, again, was my dad's hero. He was just, my dad looked up to him so much. He was, I think, second oldest. But, and he had this commanding presence that was very mercurial though.

Yeah. You could see there was like this torture, this horrible inner torture going on. And like, you know, the way I wrote it, that he somehow projected it onto me, but I wasn't the only one taking it. You know, others were to blame for other things, but that ditch witch, in fact, to this day, if I see the logo for a ditch witch, which is a witch on the side of like a giant trenching machine or any kind of like backhoe or, you know, equipment that they sell, still in business, is this silhouette of a witch against, I think it's an orange full moon. I'm still struck. It triggers this. I'm so glad that you explained that by the way, because I felt like an idiot. I was like,

oh, is a witch like a... Yeah, I had the same thing. Is that like a name for... No, it's the actual name of the company, Ditch Witch. Oh, I see. And when I became a gardener, for about four years up in Marin County, I remember they rented a Ditch Witch or two sometimes, and I learned to work these Ditch Witches as this some sort of cathartic experience of like having to work through it.

I didn't trench a tree though, and I don't know, that was not good. Uncle John was really upset, and it was a horrible, horrible death of this poor tree. Oh man. Cause it just, yeah. Do you feel like you, do you feel like when that month was over, like, did you earn their respect or? No way. No, not even close. No, I was a complete nuisance and liability. I'm sure. That's the movie version, Danny. The movie version is ready and he does something to earn respect. Yes. No, I was a complete nuisance and liability. I'm sure I seem to- That's the movie version, Danny.

The movie version is right here and he does something to remember, but in real life, no. Right, exactly. I seem to remember once getting picked up by some guy and literally just put off to the side because I was in his way. And these guys are just, I don't know, who can blame them? Yeah. These were men and you were literally a boy. I was a ghost.

Yeah. It's like there was this little ghost who was. And you felt no, at no point did you feel like the, the, um, the ability to be like, Hey guys, why, why am I doing this? Like, Oh no, no, absolutely not. I was like a cartoon of my, you know, that's how I describe myself that later, but I was, Ooh, I was just not… I didn't think that was even an option. Will you rise with the sun to help change mental health care forever?

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That's SunriseChallenge.ca. When I found out my friend got a great deal on a designer dress from Winners, I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners? Like that woman over there with the Italian leather handbag. Is that from Winners? Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt. Does she pay full price? Or those suede sneakers?

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did you think, oh, this is... Did you think this was permanent? Like, what was your conception of... I didn't know. That's what part of it that made it so scary. I didn't know if we would ever see our parents again. I didn't know if we would ever go home again. You didn't have if we would ever go home again.

You didn't have the basic information. No. Look, Lisa in the picture though, just the presence of Lisa, we knew somehow we would get, things would get handled somehow. Because Lisa just had kind of like how we're going to go get candy bars and cokes. But you first have to eat your rock bread and a horrible Charles Dickens dinner. That there was something about Lisa, even though she was only 19, that made it feel like somehow. Well, she was kind of your mother at this point.

She was our mother. She was our mother. And it's so funny to tell Lisa this stuff. Even today now it makes her either incredulous, like, Oh, shut up. You know, like, don't tell me that. Cause she doesn't like compliments, but also I think it makes her really angry still at our parents. Yeah.

Well, that's what I was going to ask. Is like, what are they, what are your parents thinking during this? They're lost, man. So at our parents. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's what I was going to ask you. This is okay. Yeah. What are they, what are your parents thinking during this? They're lost, man. What are they doing? They're so lost. My mom basically, let's just say it, my mom had a nervous breakdown.

My mom had a complete break. When we got back to the condo of the damned where everything was everywhere and then Frank rolls up with my mom. Yeah. I mean, my mom had tried to take her life twice, twice, and by overdosing and, you know, it was really terrible. And so my mom was just trying to survive.

I don't blame my mom for not being a good mom. She was first, she had to live and she didn't know how, and she was spiraling out of control live and she didn't know how and she was spiraling out of control and she pulled the geographic by going to Texas and Galveston to be with Gloria. And my dad, my dad was just grinding through it, just trying to work, work like a steel driving hammer. Next to that drafting table. And next to the blueprint machine. I mean, that was, again, it was just a brutal time.

Yeah. It's, you know, yeah, nervous breakdown. I mean, it's so hard as a parent to fathom the idea that my kids would just be out, you know, on the quote unquote road trip. Yes. And I'm gritting and bearing it, trying to get through stuff like different era. And, you know, obviously he was going through a lot and your mom having a nervous breakdown, but like, it's just, it's heartbreaking to think about, you

know, again, always with, with this show, I'm laughing, but then I'm also thinking about little Steven, you know, and like on this quote unquote road trip, not knowing when it's going to end and, um, and just the chaos of that. This episode is brought to you by quince. So Kieran, have you ever gotten a new clothing item and it, and it just becomes your go-to? Like everything else seems to fade away in your closet. Yeah. Full disclosure. I've been known to sleep in clothes like that.

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to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash destroy. One question I had was, um, can you, do you have a sense of what your personality was like at this age? Cause I know you now, but like, what was 11 year old Steven, like obviously you weren't speaking up to your uncles about, Hey, uh, I don't think I should be you now, but like, what was 11 year old Stephen, like, obviously you weren't speaking up to your uncles about, Hey, I don't think I should be doing this. What were you like? I think at that time, what was starting to take hold was a bit of a clowning personality that I could kind of clown or hide in my cartoons so that it was sort of an alternate reality. I knew when I was around my sisters, I can make them laugh and even my aunt, I can make my aunt and my cousin laugh a little

bit. So I would be like, you know, maybe doing small impersonations of what it was like out there. I could act out what it was like on the work site, but on the work site itself, it was just, what it was like on the work site. But on the work site itself, it was just, no, it was just anxiety. I want to say fear, but it was more just mental anxiety and I would say neurosis almost. I don't know if that's the right word, but I was just nervous. I was nervous. My stomach was upset all the time. I had asthma attacks. This is something I outgrew because I played a lot of sports. I didn't play them well, but I definitely wanted to be a pro athlete. It's what I wanted more than anything in the world, especially a baseball player. Yeah.

So speaking our language. Yeah. So I was always approximating sports. I was, I didn't know I was training to be a mime actually, but I was. I was training to be a mime by approximating. I don't know if you guys remember Kent Tukovic of the Pittsburgh Bivis. He was the first Submariner. He was the first like down here was the-

I remember Dan Quisenberry. Right, okay. So, but Kent Tukovic, if you Google him, weighed about 125 pounds and was like six, seven. Oh, wow, wow. And then he released down here. So it was like something out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. So I was obsessed at that time with baseball, you know, and so I think that also got me

through of like trying to in some way be physical when we were not at the work site because then I couldn't do anything. I had no, in my mind, I couldn't handle any tools or couldn't, because I was all mental. But off there, I was expressing it. I remember at times like running around that house and it was not a big house where uncle John lived, but it was very small, but I remember being very physical and moving quickly if that is a strange answer to your question. No, no. Well, the clowning aspect sounds a little familiar, Danny Jacobs, you know, the sort of performing the...

Oh, yeah. You're calling me a clown? Always. Yeah. Hey, hey, you guys, stop it. Hey, get apart from each other physically, listeners. I'm having to... Yeah, that's what they don't, they don't know that we've been fighting physically.

No, no. This whole time, let him, let go of him. But you know, like the, the wanting to make others laugh, the sort of performance. Right. You know, for you, Danny, we talked about how a lot of times it was in a way like exploring this idea that like, you could violate quote unquote,

social norms, do characters do stuff out in public as it's a reaction to your dad. I feel like for you, it was like, you wanted, I don't know, what was it? You wanted to get that laugh out of your sisters or your aunt. Some kind of control, some kind of release. I think it was also some kind of agency. Like, I guess I can do this. It's almost like a fire I could go to and feel warm when I was freezing all the time. Like some sort of, like, I wonder if this can help. And I don't like saying like, well, tears of a clown or I was cathartic

or I was processing. I mean, yeah, all those things are true, right? But like, what's it, what was really going on? I want to try and find new words for it because this is such an interesting question. I think, I think some form of order, I was looking for some form of order, some scaffolding, I could just sort of like put up, I was building some sort of shelter. The image that you had mentioned in an earlier episode about being enclosed inside of the shields while it was raining arrows. I think that was attributed somehow to this idea of being safe.

So I think I also feel like it was a form of safety. Because I remember early as a child, one of the first things I remember is doing little finger puppets. I would tell a little story to my mom. And I had five little characters on my hand. And my mom was just like dialed in. Because it was like a form of show business. She was like.

What up? Like watching her shows. She was watching a little show on my hand, on my little baby hand. And I was like, they didn't even speak words. And my mom was like, yeah, honey, what else? She was like, my mom's, you know, my little baby finger doing that. What's the other one on the other end? Who's that guy? Oh, who's this? She was sort of setting me up and pimping me. Well, you know what, that you just reminded me of your mom's affinity for show business

and watching her shows. And on some level, I'm sure you're clowning, quote unquote, was, you know, you had been disconnected from her. She, you didn't understand that she was having a nervous breakdown, but like on some level, you were like, I'm not gonna say trying to save her, but trying to entertain her, trying to-

Connect. I was trying to save her. Of course I was, you know? It's so interesting, you know? My mom, sometimes I worry in the podcast, comes off as such a hard ass, you know, toughen up. I mean, it's like, what the fuck, you know? But truly, my parents toughness was not covering up

more toughness, as they say. They were so sensitive, and so it was all covering up the soft spot. I think Pema Chodron, again, to reference Pema Chodron, she talks about that, what covers. It's this soft warmth that was really inside of them both, to a great degree. I mean, really to a great degree. Some call that Irish. You know? Jared Yeah. Yeah. And then you go to this place that is, it seems like it's near the most dangerous animal preserve I've ever heard of. Pete It was Lion Country Safari. That was the name of it. Lion Country Safari, which was just-

Do they still exist? No. Yeah. No, no, it was shut down. They were shut down eventually, but I mean, we used to go, it was one of the kind where you could drive through. And I remember my dad had the windows down and we're like, dad, they were not allowed to do that. And he's like, relax. You know, he's been through two wars. What the fuck does he care? Lions and rhinos coming up to your car. You know, so, but I remember we eventually had to roll the windows up because lions were approaching our car. But there was so many tragic things that happened.

The famous one, I say the super sad ending. Oh my God, this is so sad. Tell it to us. Okay, the hippo, Bubbles. This is when I was in high school, I think, or junior high. Yeah. Bubbles escaped from, as most of the animals did. I was going to say, the security in this place is really lax. Very limited. The elephant story, totally true, escaped. Type that in, everyone. But Bubbles was the super sad ending in that Bubbles escaped but found this pond as, you

know, Hippo was like, it was probably way better than whatever Bubbles had inside the compound. Found this pond and they were just trying to wait her out and she was having none of it. She had food, she had a big pond. So they tranquilized her and she drowned. Oh, bubbles. And it was the saddest ending. And I mean, it was like, there was so much public outcry,

even back then, it was just like, it was like, why would you possibly do that? Yeah. On a, on a, on a tangential note to that. I'm so curious what you're about to say. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Take your best shot. Nope.

I've always had this dream of, um, discovering a scientific way. I'm still so on the edge. What is this going to be? To shrink animals so that they can be very small versions of their regular sized selves. You have? Like hippopotamuses could be like, you could Drink animals so that they can be very small versions of their regular sized selves. You have?

And like hippopotamuses could be like, you could shrink them down to be like six inches and they'd like, they'd go in your sink and like a little giraffe that's like, like eight inches tall that'll, and like an elephant that's like six inches, it'll pick up pencils with its trunk. That's just been a dream of mine. Well, you know, like the mini pig, right? You could have like a little mini pig. Yeah, but like I'm talking very small animals.

Oh, you're talking to take it further back. Yeah. Cause is it Mudeng? Who is the hippo in Thailand that is a pygmy hippo that became a huge- Oh, I don't know. Boy, that sounds right up my alley. Yeah, cause we're getting there. It's not like- I'm talking like- I know, edge of the cereal bowl. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And we're getting there. It's not like... I'm talking like... I know, edge of the cereal bowl. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

And you'd like to have some of these animals as pets in your house. As pets, of course. They'd be adorable. They wouldn't be dangerous. Hippos are pretty dangerous. Oh, they're really dangerous. Yeah, but this would not be because they're so small and tiny. How long have you had this dream, Dan? Years. Since I was probably a kid, I've been thinking about this. I love that you, in the case of the elephant, you kind of put them to work.

Like you go get my pencil or, or. Yeah. I just. I love that you're using a pencil. Sure. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, that's right. But anyway, anyway, that's my, that's my tangent.

Check my stock portfolio. Wonderful. Anyway, back to saving your mom. And back to your mom's suicide attempts. Yes. Okay, hang on. Oh, we're saving your mom. And back to your mom's suicide attempts. Yes.

Okay, hang on. Oh, we're pulling some Gs. We're... So, how aware were you, like, what information were you given at the time about the pills and things like that? Did you... All I know is when mom made it to UCLA, that's when it seemed really scary and bad. I see.

Well, and before that, of course, so you go to Texas, right? No. She goes to Texas. She goes to Gloria. Danny, pay attention. But then you, don't you guys go, then you go to Texas at some point.

No, no, we first went north. We went to Canada, then we went to Port Townsend. Oh, I got confused. And then we came back to Mission Viejo and moved in with Sheila's best friend's family, the McIntires. Oh, I see. Who should have, they should have at least a plaque,

if not a full statue of the family. The living saint. The living saint. Dee McIntyre, I'm using your name on the air, Dee, but truly, I mean, my dad could not believe how much she stepped up and she completely did, that whole family stepped up for us. How long were you with him?

God, this is a question for Sheila. I want to say two years. Isn't it strange? I know exactly where you are right now trying to piece out the timing of it. Yeah, this sounds like you. It sounds like me. Yeah.

When I was going through my, when we were like doing this, the first season of the show, Darren and our producer would ask me like, okay, so where were people when? And it's just like, I have, it's just much more vague than that in my memory of like how long places were and all that stuff is really not clear. Pete Slauson Sheila and Lisa are stone cold killers on this. And during this period, Sheila's the assassin. Sheila's able to like, because one thing we're not talking about on the trip was that Sheila, one thing I believe that Sheila has is a stalwart stoicism. The one, stalwart stoicism. The one that holding my hand on the bus, getting us seated forward. Sheila has a on the bridge, steady as she goes, you know, steady. There's a steadiness.

Not a clown energy. No, Sheila's very practical, very straightforward. And I think that's something I've always admired in Sheila, but she's steady, Freddie. I mean, I understand why you are foggy because like, even for me, as a listener, I feel like you've been 11 years old for 14 years. Like the amount of stuff that's happened in that window, which is like, you know, I don't know what the most formative years of our lives are, but 11 is up there. I mean, 11, 12, like that is fundamental time and you're just, yeah,

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Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy Wendy's, Taxes Extra. Mom was in Texas, you know, for how long? She was there for like a couple of months.

Then she went to UCLA and then she lived. Wow, this is crazy. We got a double back. Do you remember when I made the reference, she ran away to the Jews? Yes. Okay, so here's what happened. That was in the first episode. First episode. Okay, so here's what happened. That was in the first episode. That was in the first episode.

Very first episode. Okay, so here's the deal. When my mom was a teenager, a young teenager, and when your mom is sleeping with a priest and your little brother is, you can't take care of him, my mom was a young teen, she ran away to a family, the Dussek family. Jack Dussek at the time was a very well known, very accomplished makeup man in Hollywood. How that happened, I don't know, but they took my mom in almost as a governess. So my mom was looking after the kids. She was like a live in governess. So my mom ran away. Okay. So they were Jewish family. Little Kenny was tiny little Kenny, and he grew up to be my mother's attorney. Now his older, right, for life, okay? Who again, is an icon in our family. Probably not to my dad, but because of the proceedings, you know,

the divorce. But his older sister was Shelley and Shelley grew up. My mom always called little Shelley a ham. She grew up to be Michelle Lee, the actress from nots landing, how to secede in business, the love bug, incredible Michelle Lee. And again, just before your generations, you wouldn't know, but in my generation, Michelle Lee was unbelievable, you know? So your mom babysat her, essentially. And little Kenny, and she knew them as Kenny and Shelley for all of her life, and they always called her Momo because they couldn't say Maureen. They were that. So to honest to God, when my mom sort

of came out of treatment, she kind of, she lived with Kenny for a year. Oh, wow. And Kenny and Shelley and Kenny's great family would, took care of my mom. It was like a halfway house. Wow. So they took care of Momo during those years. Oh my God. And down the line, when my mom, well, again, I don't want to tip any hands here, but they

treated my mother like a saint. Wow. Her whole life. Wow. At the end of my mom's life, we all went to Cantor's and there was Kenny on one side and Shelly on the other. I remember they were wiping my mom's mouth. Oh my God.

They were just on either side of her. And so in our house, truly, when my sister Sheila got married, you know, Michelle was there, you know, down in Fallbrook. And the camera, the videographer kept going over to catch Michelle Lee at the wedding. And after the second time, she walked up to him and she said, this is her day.

I remember she said, no more of me, no more of me, please. Thank you. But this is, she is the star today. Like, this is stuff like that that we'll always remember. You know, in hearing about these wonderful people who helped take care of your mom, it just reminds me of in stories like this, we need people to step up and help take care of us,

whether it's Mark Kruger representing Sandy. Yeah. Right. You know, these people who just out of decency and a sense of a realization that somebody has to help this person. Well, it makes you wonder whether that is the difference between the fact that that you and I, Kieran, are sitting here in a podcast studio as opposed to somewhere dark, you know what I mean?

Like, if like, because it doesn't, there aren't always people that, that are, that are around that's, that stand up and that stand up and fight the good fight. And then I think that a lot of times then those kids get fall through the cracks. They fall through the cracks and they're out there, it's happening right now. Or there's people right on the edge of that and if you get to them in time.

Yeah. Yes. So you go to visit your mom at UCLA. What do you remember? You described it in the episode, but is it in the hospital? Believe it or not, she was in a little dorm room over at Loyola. Dorm room. Oh, interesting. Her treatment and everything was at UCLA,

but they housed some of them over in Loyola, Marimount. So I remember we went to see mom. She was sitting on the edge of her bed at her dorm room. She was like, you know, my mom was in college, it felt like. Right, right. And it was, my mom was pretty small. She was like five foot, if five feet. But I remember how tiny she seemed

and how sad and ashamed she felt. She seemed very ashamed of herself. It's like, oh no, you know, you're alive. Yeah. You're alive. I am surprised that, I'm impressed and surprised that you did not feel any sense of anger or of betrayal. That you were able to, even as a kid in that moment, sort of really feel her perspective.

I think now I'm looking back, I can, I sensed it, what I was more, more than anything was afraid. Yeah. I thought she was going to die. Yeah. Like Nanny. Yeah. I thought we were going to die. Yeah.

I thought I didn't know, we really didn't know what was going to happen to us, because things were happening to us, it felt all the time. So look, I'm sure there was some anger in there and frustration, especially as I got a little older and the teenager. So look, I'm sure there was some anger in there and frustration, especially as I got a little older and the teenager. Right. You know, the anger. I was really angry as a teenager.

Things started to kick in there because I needed more and more protection. So this thing started to build up. And more sarcastic. I could run my mouth. And it showed up on the playing field. Oh, sports. Yeah.

Did you play dirty? No, I played, I didn't want to be seen as I could be intimidated, but not fights, because I've only been in two fights, but one I won, one I lost. But it was more like there was a part of me that just wanted to show that I was fearless, I wasn't afraid, and I would make up for my lack of athletic ability, not my miming, don't get me started on my incredible miming, but my lack of athletic ability. I was a good athlete, I guess, kind of sometimes, kind of good, but I wasn't a real athlete like the real guys. But I would show that I would just work

harder. I was Charlie Hussle, I was Pete Rose, just through grit. And it was just not true. It was all made up. It was all based on being so afraid. But I just thought I would grind through it. That makes sense. And be the crazy Irish guy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then at the end, the way that you say that our old mom was back, there's a real sense of relief. Yeah. Even in just her spirit, as acerbic and as it was, the fighter, there was something comforting

to you about the fighter being back, is that right? That's right. That she just suddenly was like, you know, fuck this. You know, there was just enough of her, of that. I was's right. That she just suddenly was like, you know, fuck this. You know, there was just enough of her, of that. I was like, I'll take it. You know, that compared to her slipping away and starting to slip away, like better that. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. The only thought that came to my mind though is that like, what also comes back with that is the shield, the cover of that soft underbelly that you referenced before, you know what I mean?

That's right. Her vulnerability, again, I've only heard it said this, I don't know if this is true, I'm not a doctor, that anger is a secondary emotion. Right. Or that sort of hardness is secondary. What's it covering? Yeah. A therapist once, I was at a party, like a Christmas party, and she said, yeah, I never let my clients describe themselves as angry.

They always have to describe themselves as hurt, and then we can get somewhere. Yes, that makes sense. I thought, okay, anonymous therapist at Christmas party. Merry Christmas to you too, boy. Merry Christmas to you as well. And then she disappeared, which was crazy. I thought, did that just happen? There was a cane in the corner.

I was like, what? Ghosts of therapists pass. And an invoice. And an invoice, yeah. An invoice, yeah. An invoice floats down into your hands. What? That is interesting though, that you found comfort

in the return of the acerbic, yeah, like mom, as opposed to, like, for some reason I just flashed to that movie, The Phantom Thread. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh, it's great. I'm gonna spoil some aspect of it. Please. Spoil on.

Spoiler alert. But at the end, it's kind of about this idea that in this relationship, the, the woman likes her husband more when he's sick because he is not so exacting and demanding and acerbic and impossible. There's other elements to it, but I won't spoil all of it. And like, you kind of had the opposite experience, right?

That like, you wanted your mom in her full regalia, not physically, but just, you know, psychologically and personality wise. Her battle armor. Yes, battle armor. She was able to at least jersey it up a little bit more because we didn't know what was going to happen to us. You needed a fighter.

I'm sure that felt comforting. Yeah, so adrift. Somebody was going to be fighting for you. You had been homeless. You had been adrift, yes, exactly. Right, the devil you know. It's like, I'll take that mom rather than either losing my mom completely

or watching her suffering. How do you think that this whole, mostly from the kind of the moving around in this episode and the previous one, but this sort of homeless era, how do you think that has affected you today as an adult? I think it's kept me from asking for more or what I want because I can get by. It's like a form of poverty in a way.

So I think it's affected me that way in a negative sense, but it's also affected, it's also been like, I can fucking roll with this, I can get by. It's a superpower too, I can fucking roll with this. You know, I can, I can get by. It's a superpower too. I think it can be. Right. And look, I know if it's out of balance, you know, if it's out of balance, then that's a problem. Like codependency, codependency is when you're out of balance, it's good to care for people and to have empathy for people. But when it's you're enmeshed and out

of balance. But I think that's the first thing that jumps to mind when you ask that, that I don't always realize, I can live in a world that's very small. Someone described it as wearing a box on your head and you've painted the world on the inside of the box. And you'd have to just have people to help you just, I mean, you just could take the box off. Remember this is, this is life. This is what's possible because here's one other thing I'll say. I don't like admitting this, but any initial ping to my security, like financially, whoo, I'm gonna be homeless again.

Like if I lose a job or if something falls through, I've got to, those ghosts kind of blow through my chest. That's so interesting to me. And I think about this for myself too, that though you've chosen a profession that is so not stable. Yeah, you could have been a banker. In which that trigger will be there a lot

in a way more than almost every other. Well, what do you make of that? Like, is it me replicating? So I'm able to like, oh, I can feel that way for my whole life. And then here comes AI. You want to put it on steroids now? That idea of like, oh, I may not have a career.

I think that it's partly, I can speak for myself, which is that like, I think that there's that anxiety of the uncertain, the unstable. I think that when you grow up with that a lot, there is something weirdly comforting about being in that space, that like you are familiar with that anxiety. The devil, you know.

Familiar, right, literally. Yeah. Yeah. But tell me more about that. Like you're actually, are you, do you recognize it or does it comfort you? No, it feels like, I don't know, for me, it feels like just the way that life is. Yeah. Like, oh, life is being constantly uncertain about what's going to be coming and feeling that anxiety.

And like that's what life, that's what living- Though that is a self-fulfilling prophecy, but because that's how we've made our lives as professionals. Yes, but like that is, yeah, but I just, I don't quite know what I'm saying, I guess, other than just to be like, well, that's the life that I know. But how do we meet it is the question. I mean, again, a Buddhist would say, because it's ever changing, and because nothing is certain, bankers, not certain. Right. It's a falsehood.

That's right. Right. Also, you could get T-boned at the light. Right. You know, so it's a question of that's an illusion, certainty anyway, but it's a question of how we meet it, how you drop in on that wave, so to speak, and like how to surf that. So how do you surf that?

Look, over the years I've had to get help. I've had to get a lot of help. And I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm an addict. I won't say to what, but I've, you know, I've had to deal with that because I've tried to self-medicate. Yeah. Yeah. For a long, long time I did, a long time, which is like, totally makes sense, man.

Thank God for all forms of drugs. I mean, really, right? I mean, it could be cheesecake or heroin, but- Exercise. Exercise, right. Or even thinking of being right, whatever it happens to be. But over time, of course, when that is killing you and it's toxic to you and other people around you, so that then the rubber meets the road. And then there's nothing between you and the thinking, nothing between you and the disease, so to speak, nothing between you and your past.

That's when you need, in my opinion, some form of a community around you, however you define that. Even just close-knit friends. Plus I needed to go to therapy. Yeah. I also think that makes a ton of sense. I also think that there's something about, you know, the choice of our profession

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Yeah, they always say it's like a beacon that there's a part of you is always seeking to go home to try to get it right. And that's interesting to notice, but that can be very, very destructive and unhealthy. It's like you're picking the people to like picking partners. And then you go back. It's like a, a homing beacon and that can really, unless you're aware of it, that can be very, very damaging.

Yes. I think because we're never going to get it right now. The past is over. Yeah. Well, and it makes me also think if I want, I wonder if on some level you're still trying to save your mom in this profession. I think I would not rule it out. Yeah.

Yeah. It reminded me, um, I think it was, uh, I remember hearing an interview with Gene Wilder one time talking about how his mother had had some ailment, I don't remember what it was. And when she came home, the doctor told her, if you can make her laugh, it will really help her. Yeah.

And, and, and it was, it's very similar, right? Where you just had this idea of, oh, maybe I can, or your mom loved her shows and you, you were like, if I could give my mom her shows, maybe I, and I think for him, he got hooked and it was like on some level, his whole career was like, trying to save his mom, make her laugh. Hey, I mean, it can develop unbelievable skills, especially if you have a natural ability to do that.

But when my mom was watching shows, my mom was free. My mom just gave me chills. My mom was free and she was, and like again, she was like a scholar of comedians. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you were actually talking about watching The Tonight Show and she would name every person.

That was her thing. Oh my God, yes. She just loved it. And it's like when she, it didn't matter. It was just like, she was, she was incredible. Even drag. What did she think of your performing in your career? Early on, it was, don't encourage him.

She would be like, to a point. She would enjoy it and then that's it. There was like a limit, which was really not good. And I still have that in me. But over time, I swear, you know, what's just dawning on me? I played a girl, I played a 13 year old girl, speaking of drag, I played a 13 year old girl in a huge play that was a huge hit in the Bay area called the Weber family Christmas. And I played Sally Sue, the daughter. So I was-

When was this? Like this was in the nineties, but I mean, back up there, and I joined it late because it was a cult phenomenon in the Bay Area. If anyone's listening in the mid to late eighties up through middle of the nineties, this was bigger than Christmas Carol every year. Wow. It was massive.

You could not get tickets. It was insane. It was like- And they couldn't find an actual little girl. No, no, they, it was all played by guys. Kenny flew my mother to San Francisco. Oh wow. Kenny, Kenny to the rescue. Kenny and Shelley to the rescue again, flew my mom up. And I remember that they put her in this just behind, it was a two tiered,

the Bay area, the bats theater, Bayfront theater. They put her just at the first row of the Bay Area, the Batts Theater, Bayfront Theater. They put her just at the first row of the second part of the, you know, there was a railing there separating top and bottom. So this theater. And there were chases. It was the most, I lost 10 pounds through every run of the show. It was the most physical broken ribs. Oh my God.

Insane physical comedy between me and Willie. Okay. And that's where I learned to walk stilts. I come in at the end as a giant Elvis, baby Elvis, crashing through a wall every night. Oh my God. It was insane. That could be a podcast.

But I remember I was chasing William up through the audience on the seats, the railing, or in the seats, the arm rests. Yeah. And we practice it and practice it. So suddenly he runs up through the audience, over the audience and I chase him. And I remember I crossed over that railing at the top and I landed right there intentionally and Willie, God bless him, knew where my mother was sitting. So he went right to her, jumped over, so I would have to go right there to try and catch him. And I remember my mother's eyes were just as wide as saucers in her glasses. And I go, hey lady, because Sally talked like this, she was just an idiot.

And I go, hey lady. And I'll never forget that moment. And my mother thought, it's not like, well, you finally made it. It's more like, I'll take it. Yeah, yeah. You know, if I loved Geraldine, that's my boy. Yeah, that's a long way from don't encourage him. It is a long way from don't encourage him. And that moment, I haven't thought about that moment

in years. Wow, that's fantastic. Well, and in the way that when she came back and was like, I'll get my own cigarettes, but I hope I get hit by a truck. And you're like, I'll take it. Now she got this. And she was like, she'll take it. Yeah, well, take what we can get. Take what we can get. Yeah, that's good. That's a great, I think that's a great takeaway from this episode. So next week,

So, next week in episode six, which is Mom Hustle and the Girl Upstairs. Oh, yes. All I can say for episode six is hang on. We're going to see my mom hustling to keep us afloat, including a decision she makes for us to take on. We take on a couple of roommates and then we take on the roommate of all roommates. Oh yes. And the girl upstairs. So hang on.

So why don't we end by hearing a little clip from next week's episode. Even with our dad helping out, mom was hustling pretty hard to make ends meet. She had borrowed money from our scary former neighbors, the Perry family, and when they came to collect one night, the three of us hid in a closet until they stopped cursing and pounding on our front door. One evening, a guy who lived around the corner came knocking and asked for my mom, saying that she owed him money. I told him she wasn't home, and he paid himself with one of our lamps and a small end table. I learned that's what you get for opening the front door.

How to Destroy Everything presents Toughen Up is written, performed and created by Stephen Kieran. Executive produced by Darren Grotsky and Danny Jacobs. In partnership with Eastman Productions and 333 Productions. Story editing by Lisa Blair and Sheila Stevens. Music mixing and mastering by Arlo Sanders. Audio engineering by Glenn Eastman Original Theme Music by Alan Simpson

Original Artwork by Derek Yee Kitchen Pep Talk by Joyce Kieran Thanks to Helen, Diane and Steve, Bob and Carla, Art and Joyce, Dave, Sean and the DeTye family Special thanks to Mom, Dad, Lisa, Sheila and Joe For questions, feedback, and of course, any stories about Danny's dad, we can be reached at Iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. If you would like to support this podcast,

please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com forward slash howtodestroyeverything. And of course, you can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky as well. How to Destroy Everything and of course you can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky as well. How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up is available on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Special thanks to Spotify Studios for the use of their beautiful recording space in downtown Los Angeles.