How To Destroy Everything - How To Destroy Everything Presents: Toughen Up - Episode 6: Mom Hustle and The Girl Upstairs

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

In this chapter of our story, we find Maureen is officially back on her feet, though struggling to make ends meet for her and the kids. After a variety of jobs, she ends up working in a factory and takes in some of her fellow employees as roommates to pay the rent. Stephen is displaced when a particularly provocative boarder rents his room, upending a family already desperately in need of stability. We then hear Danny and Darren reflect on how this episode is a true snapshot of 60’s and 70’s America, how Stephen lacked the rock of stability of Danny’s grandparents and how Stephen’s mom’s secrets and schemes eerily mirror those of one Richard Jacobs. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything and please don't forget to share, rate, and review! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tuffin' Up, written and performed by Stephen Caron. Episode 6, Mom Hustle and the Girl Upstairs. Even with our dad helping out, mom was hustling pretty hard to make ends meet. She had borrowed money from our scary former neighbors, the Perry family, and when they came to collect one night, the three of us hid in a closet until they stopped cursing and pounding on our front door. One evening, a guy who lived around the corner came knocking and asked for my mom, saying that she owed him money. I told him she wasn't home, and he paid himself with one of our lamps and a small end table. I learned that's what you get for opening the front door. We never really knew what was going on with our mother and money. Mom would

routinely tell us that she had put clothes on layaway at department stores and after going to pay for them they were stolen before she could get them home. Packages, birthday presents, Christmas gifts, purses, wallets, all routinely stolen. I looked one way, and when I looked back, they were gone, mom would say, over and over again. We came to expect it. Mom going out shopping was just another way of saying,

Mom was going out to get robbed. It created the impression that our local suburban mall was a lawless, crime-riddled war zone teeming with thieves. We never, or rather I never questioned it at the time. For all I knew, it might have been the Perry family collecting. I couldn't figure it out. Pretty soon, my mother got a proper job at HMS Fish and Chips, and she started working behind the counter with kids who were

just a little older than I was. It was there that she first met a giant Pacific Islander named Big Wally, who worked the fryer. Big Wally tipped the scales at over 300 pounds, and he wasn't overweight, mind you. He was just 300 plus pounds of raw tongan man. He drove an AMC Matador, one of the widest cars ever made, and when he got in, it would go, kiaaa!

And when he got out of it, it would go, kiaaa! Wally thought of my mom as a second mother and would come over after work and make us Indonesian food, like chicken satay on the skewer. I'll tell you one thing. I felt safe to answer our front door whenever Big Wally was in our kitchen, and I knew he could have easily killed the Perry boys by knocking their empty heads together and then tomahawking their lifeless bodies into the ditch next to our condo.

Wally had a sister named Lorraine, who was married to Henry, and they both worked at the anabolic's vitamin factory. They got my mother a job there, and in exchange, my mom allowed them to move into our place and start renting her bedroom. My mother moved across the hallway and shared a bed with Sheila, and I was still flying solo in my room. Mom, Henry, and Lorraine would go to work at Anabolic's during the day, and they would all come home in the evening, lightly coated in a fine vitamin dust.

If you open a bottle of vitamins and spray in a little Chanel No. 5, that's what our mother smelled like. Oh, and Benson and Hedges menthol. And a black Russian. Our life finally felt like it was starting to come together now and pretty soon My mom even made a friend in the condominium complex who would soon be described as her best friend Her best friend Connie

Connie lived on the edge of town by choice with her husband Randy, who was the top realtor in all of Mission Viejo. He was so good that his face was on the bus stops. Yeah, he was that good. Connie and Randy were suburban royalty. She was from back east, which made her good people. Connie was a hairdresser, stood about 6'4 in stiletto heels and ankle-zip jeans, and weighed about 94 pounds.

Our mother came in around 4'11 on her tippy toes and they made quite a pair. Connie was pale as a ghost with giant jet black Ann Miller showgirl hair that had a jagged white streak in it that we never knew if she put there on purpose. She wore Cleopatra blue eyeshadow and thick black liner and favored long blood red nails. Halloween had nothing on Connie. She would come over and sit with my mother at the dining room table and they would drink coffee, tell stories, and smoke like a couple of East Coast factory chimneys. Connie loved my mother, the little Irish magnet,

a magnet for all sorts of things, some good and some not so good. But people young and old loved my mother and were drawn to her. People on the whole somehow pulled for Maureen, and so it was with Connie. But she never called my mother Maureen. It was always Mo.

And I remember one day I was in our kitchen staring into our empty pantry, and I heard them talking at the dining room table. I heard Connie's tone change, and she said, Mo, I got a problem. And mom flicked her ash and said, What is it? Connie said, Look, I got a friend. She's a model. And she's just about to start a two week photo shoot.

And her husband is roughing her up pretty bad. He's leaving bruises on her. And if we put her at my apartment, it's the first place he'll check. Can we put her here for a couple of weeks? And without missing a beat, I hear my mother say, no problem, we'll put her in Steven's room. And we'll put Steven in a sleeping bag under the stairs. Problem solved.

And I remembered two things. Number one, I was now going to be living under the stairs in a mummy bag. And two, the doorbell rang, and a little too loudly I said, I'll get it! I will get it! I ran up and peered at the slim silhouette standing behind the pebbled glass. I turned the knob, swung the door open, and there she was. Rebecca, wearing a pale yellow halter top, sensible hot pants, a cork platform wedge, and sporting a little blue hippie purse with fringe on it.

and sporting a little blue hippie purse with fringe on it. She had long, straight, dirty blonde hair down to there. And growing up in Southern California, she could only be described by those two magical, almost mystical words. You see, Rebecca, at least in my mind, was a surfer girl. She came in and she met my mom and Sheila and me. She met me. She met Henry and Lorraine and Big Wally and Frank and of course Connie was there. And on that Friday night, we all just sat around and got to know to know Rebecca who was gonna be staying with us for a couple of weeks So my mother started asking her questions

so You have a job coming up? and Rebecca said yes as she smoked her long brown exotic More brand cigarettes that I was fairly certain were probably from Europe though they weren't and she said, Yeah, my job starts next week. I hope I don't break my nails. I've been growing them long and they just told me I have to scramble down some rocks in Malibu to shoot in a cove.

It was at this time that you could almost hear the coils of my mother's on-board Jersey City early warning detection engines start to hum as she followed up with... A cove, huh? You have to climb down into a cove? What's this job for?" And Rebecca said, A magazine. And my mom, slowly trailing smoke out of the side of her mouth and waving it away, asked,

Which one? And Rebecca said, Playboy, with any luck, next year I'll be a Spring Centifold. This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Gentlemen, it's almost summertime. People are talking about getting their summer bod. I'm not into it, maybe because it's a lost cause, but mostly because I am into getting my savings bought. I wanna save money this spring and summer.

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I was 15 years old. Now any normal 15 year old boy would go to the bell that alerts all the other 15 year old boys in the world and start ging-glong, ging-glong, ging-glong, ging-glong. Come, assemble, mount thy stingray bicycles with banana seat and sissy bar and come All ye who have recently grown pubic hair come all But I didn't do that. I didn't tell anybody. Playboy always described their centerfolds as the girl next door. But in my case, she was now the girl upstairs.

In my bedroom. Now it was Mom, Sheila, Henry, Lorraine, Miss March, April, or May, and me, living under the stairs, in a tiny condominium, next to a meandering, overgrown ditch on the edge of town. The next morning, Saturday morning, my mom, Henry and Lorraine got up and went to work at the vitamin factory.

Sheila got up and went to work at the pillager's paradise known as the Laguna Hills Mall, where she worked at Hallmark Cards, directly across from Organ Exchange, where they would try to sell you organs by playing organs and looking at you. So I got up, made my bag, and still in my pajamas, I went over and poured some cereal, and sat at our wobbly dining room table, until I heard someone coming down the carpeted slat steps, then down the two steps into the living room. And I looked over, and it was my new roommate, Rebecca. Now I don't know the French origins of the word, négligé, but I believe it is rooted in neglect, as in, someone has neglected to put enough clothing on. That's what Rebecca was wearing, a negligee that came down to the highest part of what

might be described as her tan thigh. And over it, she was wearing a robe that came down to roughly a millimeter below the same place on said thigh, both of which were made of sheer material, as if by layering sheer material over sheer material, one would create a solid material. Which this did not. And Rebecca walked up to me and said, Where is everyone?

And because I wasn't in my body at the time, the body answered, Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààààà Then she leaned in and asked my body, Do you have Monopoly? It was 1977. Everyone owned fucking Monopoly. And so I got down our Monopoly and we set up Monopoly together on a Saturday morning at our battle scarred dining room table. Me, a two-dimensional cartoon rendering of a boy in pajamas, and Rebecca, a mature,

beautiful, fully-formed young woman in her negligé ensemble. It soon became clear Rebecca was no stranger to depression-era real estate board games, and quickly began to amass a small fortune. After a particularly profitable fictional land grab, Rebecca looked up and said, I need a cigarette. In the 70s, you didn't have to ask if someone minded if you smoked. You simply announced that in a moment, you would be smoking. And then you smoked.

She got up and walked over to the living room, where she had left her hippie purse the night before on the floor next to a chair. I remember watching her cross the room and then stopping and very slowly arching over, reaching down into her purse without bending her knees, letting her long surfer girl hair crash like a dirty blonde wave onto the carpet. I remember her holding that position for what seemed like a long time, long enough for her to presume that I was noticing her, and just long enough for the earth to stop rotating on its axis. She was coyly fumbling around for her cigarettes, and then she stopped, and I watched as Rebecca slowly peeked her head around one side of her leg, and she looked at me, looking at her.

And even though her head was upside down and peering through her shameless hair, I could tell she was smiling. And I quickly looked down on Monopoly. Sweet Monopoly. A place I could look. And I didn't tell anybody. I don't remember the rest of the Monopoly game, or that day, or even much of the weekend that followed for that matter. I do remember that on Monday, Rebecca started her job. During that following week, some nights Rebecca would come home, and sometimes she wouldn't, and someone took notice of that.

Early the following Saturday morning, long before anyone was getting up to go to work, it was just starting to get pre-dawn blue in the little area under the stairs where I lived now, and I awoke to the sound of the front door slowly opening. CHICKIEEEE! Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more.

Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. And I watched a pair of cork platform wedge sandals through the slats of the stairs sort of taught her in, and they just wobbled there as the door quietly closed. But instead of heading up the stairs, they came down the two steps into the living room, down the two steps into the living room, and through my lashes, as I pretended to sleep, I saw Rebecca peek under the stairs and look at me. Then I watched her take off her hippie purse, slowly sink down to her hands and knees, and languidly crawl over to me, like some hot puma, with a tranquilizer dart in its shapely haunch.

She then carefully gathered up the lower half of the sleeping bag I was in, and held my trembling legs tightly together about a foot off the carpet, or her preposterous hair cascaded down onto the rip-stop nylon. Rebecca then slowly lowered my legs and laid her perfectly proportioned head down on my knees, and gently fell asleep for an hour. The longest and shortest hour of my young life. Normally, this would be more than enough to kill a 15 year old American boy, but for some

reason I was spared and after those 60 sacred minutes passed she stirred, wobbled to her feet, gathered up her purse and hair and I peered through my lashes as she ascended the stairs. And I didn't tell anybody. A few days after that, I was out kicking ass with my sister Sheila in her white 65 Falcon, red interior, three on the tree, listening to an eight track of Breakfast in America, and after taking the long way home, we rolled up on Via Damasco. Parked in front of our condo was a red Fiat Spider Coupe, which belonged to Greg, Sheila's boyfriend, who was 18 at the time. He was a star athlete on one of the athletic teams for the Mission Viejo High School Diablos.

That's right, our school mascot was the Antichrist. Greg was physically intimidating to me and he knew that and was dating my sister and there was absolutely nothing I could do about it and he knew that too. I missed my dad a lot during those years but I never missed him more than when Sheila was dating Greg because I'm pretty sure my dad would have made Greg cry. We parked and Sheila said, that's funny, what's Greg doing here? And so we walked up and opened the door and the first thing we heard was laughter.

It was Rebecca's laughter. And we came down the two steps into the living room and looked over and there, on the dining room table, was Monopoly, mid-game, and sitting at the table was Rebecca, with her long tan legs crossed and her long sun-drenched hair, smoking a long, more brand cigarette, and she was laughing long and hard at something hilarious Greg had just said. Something like, Wow, if my girlfriend and her little brother were to come home right now,

this would not look good. Because there, standing in front of Rebecca, wearing 1970s-era P.E. shorts, which, if you'll remember, was not very much P.E. short at all, and wearing nothing else was star wide receiver Greg pumping iron on my never having been even close to being fully loaded, but fully loaded this time, Barbell said. And for reasons I don't understand, yet I completely understand to this day, Sheila yelled, Greg! And she ran over and she jumped on Greg's back, causing Greg to stagger backwards and crush my sister into a bookcase, which then caused him to pitch forward,

with the weight plates falling off of the bar left and right, and then he fell onto the carpet, and my sister Sheila now fell on top of him and Rebecca's, laughing even harder. And books are now cascading down onto my sister. Books like Jonathan Livingston Siegel by Richard Bach and Exodus by Leon Uras. Books my mother was reading at the time.

And I did tell someone this time. I told my mom. I told my mom. I told her what happened when she came home from the vitamin factory that day. I remember Greg had gone home by then, and Rebecca was off laughing somewhere. Poor Greg, I mean. After all, when a Playboy centerfold moves into your girlfriend's place and you're an 18-year-old high school athletic star with the devil on your uniform You're basically just taking orders at that point

Rebecca had left her hippie purse behind again, and my mother went straight to that purse and she found what she was looking for and When Rebecca came home later my mother threw her out of our house I found what she was looking for. And when Rebecca came home later, my mother threw her out of our house and told her where to go. Reminder her not to stop on the way, honey. I never saw Rebecca again, at least not in person.

When the magazine came out on newsstands early next year, our mother gave us one look. I remember standing with Sheila at the door to mom's closet as mom, cigarette dangling from her lips, rifled through the pages way too fast. And there was surfer girl, Rebecca, looking beautiful on a Mexican blanket in a secluded cove. Her nails were perfect. Mom even opened the centerfold page and matter of factly turned the magazine sideways so we could all just see it just once. She then folded it back up and put the magazine in her closet under a pile of sweaters in a place that I took extremely careful notice of, as I would be visiting that pile of sweaters

again very soon, and quite often. Not long after that, Henry and Lorraine moved out. I moved back upstairs, and my mom moved out of Sheila's room and back into her own bedroom. When she did, my mother found a number of hardcore pornographic magazines between the mattress and box spring on the side that Henry had slept on, and when she asked him about it he said, They're not mine. Maybe you should ask your son about them. Mom leaned down and peered under the bus I'd just been thrown under, and she did ask me,

and I somehow mustered enough teen cheek to say that whenever I brought pornographic magazines into the house, I always stored them under my mother's mattress. She squinted and took a long drag on her cigarette, the length of which spoke. Point taken. Besides, why would I settle for looking at naked pictures of total strangers when pictures of Rebecca, the girl upstairs, were just under a pile of sweaters in my mother's closet? Okay. All righty, that was a ride. Rebecca, Rebecca, Rebecca. How old, this is by the way, this is Danny Jacobs.

And Darren Grotsky. I'm Stephen Kiernan. And Darren Grotsky. I'm Stephen Karen. And enough of the pleasantries. How old was Rebecca when she was there? I think she was 20 years old. Okay. I'm guessing, yeah, I think so. That seems about right for your average playboy.

I mean, I have to say, and I know we're just gonna cut right to Rebecca here, but. I can't imagine why. But like, as I was listening to that episode, I was thinking on some level, oh my God, this is like an incredible, you know, teenage boy fantasy. But then I was also thinking about like, she's an adult. Yes. You're a child. She's a married adult, right? Yeah.

She was married. Right, she was married, right. Is this okay? You know what I mean? Like it's complicated actually. Yeah, say more about that. Well, I mean, you're a child. I mean, imagine if the genders were reversed,

what would you be saying? Right, no. Even if the genders were reversed, what would you be saying? Right. No. No, I mean, it wasn't okay to begin with. Lisa, this is something, part of the story that makes Lisa really mad. How could mom allow this to happen? And my mom just, I think, wanted some more rent money in a sense, right? So she wasn't really

thinking about it. She's like, oh, relax, you know? And so, I mean, it was a different era. Yeah. And, you know, nothing happened, thank God. There was, you know, some, I don't know what you would call that, obviously flirtatious. Yeah, shanigans. Shenanigans going on. But I, you know, thank God I was just completely shut down enough to be a two dimensional cartoon rendering. Peering through your lashes. Peering through my lashes.

That was the scariest one. But she was obviously coming home very late was probably, you know, very inebriated and then passed out on my legs. Yeah, that's what happened. I figured that that's why she passed out there, but it wasn't 100% sure. But what caused her to say, I'm going to check in on the kid under the stairs. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, maybe the same thing that caused her to linger and searching for her cigarette in her purse when she glanced behind you. Yeah. Right. You know. Exactly. She was having fun. She was having fun. Exactly. She was like a cat toying with a tiny mouse.

Yeah. And it's also probably, I mean, I don't know her, obviously, but maybe it's how she, you know, her sense of self-worth, it was in a relationship, relation to the opposite sex. And so maybe that's a part of it. Yeah, I'm sure that's true to some degree, but it was crazy. It's just quite the motley crew you had in that condo next to the ditch. I love that the ditch keeps getting referenced. Yeah.

I mean, so you have the, what are the names of the couple at the Viper Factory? Henry and Lorraine. Henry and Lorraine. Yeah. And then Rebecca, and then your mom, and you and Sheila. And Sheila, yeah. And where's Lisa living at this point?

Lisa had long time run away, but Lisa had, she was sort of finding her way and had become, she had changed religions. Oh, yeah. So she was on a religious path. Yes, yes. So she was not around, you weren't really seeing her at this stage.

No, not at this stage. In fact, Lisa, I think always thinks like she let her guard it down in some way by not getting, but she didn't know this was happening. Yeah. Sure, sure. It was only like a two week period. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

And my mom's friend, Connie, you know, it was all just like, just figure this out. You know, my mom was like, not a problem. Yep. Well, you know, it's so funny when you say that she didn't know that it was happening. just figure this out. My mom was like, not a problem. Yeah. You know what's so funny when you say that she didn't know that it was happening? I was just thinking about the age that we live in now in which you would have had a phone

and you would have been texting with Lisa and you would have been like, mom is letting a playboy play maestey. Yeah, a centerfold, she's living in my room or my friends. It's like, when I did the one man show for the first time, a bunch of old friends that I knew in high school came and heard this story for the first time.

Oh my God, they were probably like, how could you? And I remember looking out and the expressions on their face, it was a mixture of like, complete shock, but also almost a sense of betrayal. Like, what, why didn't you let us know? We would have found our way out to the edge of town. It feels like it was, it was sensory overload that you just shut down.

Yes. I mean, I was- You couldn't talk about it. You couldn't do anything. No, I was, I was, I was completely shut down. Yeah. As would I have been. I mean, I can't even imagine at 15, what it must have been like. No. Yeah, and like when the revelation comes that she's doing a Playboy photo shoot, it is absurd. It's absurd. And then it comes out and then we see the pictures and the fact that my mom, look, you gotta hand it

to my mom, right? She was like, well, it's only fair, you know? Do you remember in Animal House, there's a scene at the end of the movie where this kid, he's in his bedroom and he's looking at Playboy magazine and he's just on his bed, you know, he's fully, he's fully clothed and everything, but a float crashes. Oh, yes. And propels a Playboy Playmate or centerfold through the air, crashes through his bedroom

window and lands on his bed and he says, thank you, God. Yes, that was your life. That was, yes, only I was like, I was like, oh no. No, not that. I mean, I was completely terrified, shut down. I had no idea. You know, Greg, Greg knew to come by. Sure. You know?

Greg had the wherewithal to. Yeah. He sure did. Yeah. You know, one observation I was making while listening to this episode is, as I've sort of, as I zoom out and think about your childhood, in a way, outside of you, you're also telling a story of like America through the sixties and seventies. Yes.

You're like, it's like a distant, distant cousin of Forrest Gump. Because obviously the absurd story of Forrest Gump and hitting all of these sort of celebrity famous moments. But it's like, I think back to what you were going through in the sixties, even when you tell the story, you also, you reference all the cars in a car culture of Los Angeles, when people could name cars too, when there weren't so many cars that you didn't know. Oh. You knew what all the cars were.

Yeah. I remember my dad used to talk about that. Like he was like, I used to know all the cars cause they were only like 15 cars or whatever. Yeah. And they were all interesting. And then the Playboy magazine, you know, and like the suburbs.

Yeah. And like these are very iconic Americana elements. It feels to me, I was thinking about that too, it feels to me like a fucked up Wonder Years. Yes. Oh yes. Because it's suburban America. Yes.

It's in that milieu, it's in that kind of even that era, but it's much more, you know, down and dirty. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Grittier. But I agree with what you're saying, Darren, about the, just sort of the, it's very American. It just feels so very, the American story.

And of this different time. That's why I referenced like the idea of today and phones and whatnot, because I was also thinking about just how, I mean, like I grew up without phones, cell phones, obviously, so did Danny. And like, I've forgotten in a way what that was like, that like you, there were things that your friends didn't know that your sister wouldn't know. Whereas now that's just, if something crazy happens, everybody knows.

It's instantaneous. Instantaneously. And you could live this. I mean, in a way that it's a part of the solitude and the loneliness that you felt that would be different now. Um, but yeah, you just were cut off from the world because, you know, literally technology had not yet been invented that connects us all together at all times.

Yeah. I mean, footage, right? You just, you could just, you know, pictures and films of different parts of all these stories. But I have a question about Connie. Like what do you think, I mean, obviously they shared, you know, a love of cigarettes. But like, what was their bond, Do you think your mom and Connie? Well, one thing that was like totally instantaneous was they were both from back East. And that was just a thing. Right. Right. Yeah. So there was just that the fact that people always pulled from my mom,

my mom could be very entertaining to be around, you know, so I think that was part of it. She was disarming. She was just she was flippant and disarming and could, you know, so I think that was part of it. She was disarming. She was flippant and disarming and could, you know, would say things, you know, off the cuff. So I think that was refreshing for Connie because my mom was not the typical like housewife. My mom was like this little hoodlum that lived around the corner. She had that kind of energy. And I think Connie, one thing that Connie liked was, mom was kind of rough around the edges in some ways. And I think Connie really liked that. It felt like no nonsense. Right. You said that she was a magnet for things that were good, but also not so good.

What did you mean by that? My mom, yeah. Oh, you're talking about your mom in that comment. Yes, yeah. It wasn't maybe very clear there, but no, the Irish magnet. I thought it was clear. Guys don't, hey, stop it. Don't grab each other like that.

You guys have no idea. You're exposing what we actually are like. Physical wrestling. It gets very physical in here. And I'm larger, so it usually goes in favor. Yeah, it's like, yeah. I see, I see what you're talking about. Well, I mean, because my mom, you know,

like the fact that the parries and borrowing money and then that one guy came by and it's like, my mom was hustling to kind of keep things going and we don't know what the hell. It sounds like though she kept it kind of hidden from you guys to a degree. Well, tried to. Tried to.

Tried to, and then stuff would get quote stolen. It's like, we didn't know what that meant. Yeah, do you think that means that she was, yeah, what, even today, do you understand what was going on? No, I mean, the girls and I talk about this too. It's like, we don't know. Mom was just kind of lying or,

that's why you don't have gifts this year. Or that's why, I don't know, I was just out doing this. But what was she doing? She wasn't obviously shopping. So what was she going to do there? I have no idea. Yeah, fascinating.

I had a note where this was the moment where she was reminding me a little bit of Richard Jacobs in the sense of like, you were living with her. Secrets. And the secrets. And there was so much mystery and no explanations. And obfuscation. And obfuscation and shenanigans, you know, and getting herself into trouble

and making enemies, you know. Hers was seemingly very specific about money that she owed. Richard obviously had all kinds of, you know, issues with people, but, and you know, um, yeah, like that's, it's interesting as we go through this tracking the similarities and differences between your two childhoods. Yeah.

Um, and, um, one, one question I had, did you, did I hear that you referenced a black Russian that she was, was your mom drinking at this stage? Yeah, it's funny. We never really thought that mom had a quote, drinking problem, but she was addicted, she got addicted to Valium. And my mom was obviously addicted to smoking.

I mean, which people don't think of it that way, but that is the truth. But mom, yeah, on occasion would drink. So, but I never- Even post UCLA rehab and everything. Totally. Yeah. When Connie was around, yeah, they would think nothing of it. Yeah, just drinking and margaritas and, you know, on Friday nights at a Mexican restaurant and just kind of tear it up. One thing that I'm curious about,

which is, you mentioned even just as in earlier in this conversation, your friends from high school, how they didn't know. I'm interested in your school life. Oh yeah. We don't talk about that a lot. You don't talk about that a lot in the episodes, but you are, and it's crazy to think that during all this, you are going to school.

Well yeah, in fact, during the quote unquote road trip, you were not in school because you- That was over the summer break. That was summer break. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They timed it just right. Like, well, wait, let's send them on. Yeah, exactly.

Right, we'll just wait and we'll send them off on their own when school gets out. Yeah. But like now, like in this episode, you know, during this, you're going to school. Yeah, during the week, yeah. What about, I'm curious about your, the compartment, are you doing a lot of compartmentalizing

between home and life? And then what was, so what was your school life like during this period? Well, I had friends that were, you know, I wouldn't let on about what was happening. In fact, so many of them said the same thing. Like we had no idea. So in that way, it was a major compartmentalizing.

I would not let on and I would also see, I mean, academically, I used to do really good in school when I was younger, but then it got bad. What? It said really well. He corrected your grammar. Oh, right. Sorry. Right. Thank you. You're a monster, Jacob. You're a monster. It seemed unproposed.

No, sure. Right. You can see that I went to a state college. But I, then things started to slip and I didn't do as well in school. Yeah. Was that because you couldn't keep these areas separate anymore? I think it started to bleed in that way. I also realized I didn't learn in the way that I was taught. I wasn't academic in that way. I couldn't deliver. I didn't test well, that sort of thing. And I sort of learned in a different way. I was more visual, more physical. And yeah, I could improvise over time. I found out that that was something I was sort of better at on the fly. But I definitely kept it. I was ashamed. We were still, look, I

always said we were poor. Yeah, you know, know, I was poor and we didn't have things. So I felt bad. If I could ask 15 year old Stephen, what do you want to be when you grow up? What would he have said? Like, what were your ambitions? Veterinarian. Okay. And or- Helping out all those animals that are from the lion preserve.

That are escaping. Yeah, exactly. Bubbles would not have... Yeah. I just said, hang on. In my watch. Right. I would have lowered the tranquilizer rifle.

Hold on. Hold on, Chad. Chad, yeah. So I wanted to be a veterinarian for as long as I could remember. Oh, wow. And then that became, I think I was thinking, I guess I'll just go into advertising. I guess that's what someone does. I didn't know why.

But I think, oh yeah, I guess I would. That's a job. That's a job I could do. And then after that, I had no idea. By the time I got to college, I had no idea what was going to become of me. I didn't know if I would just like drive a truck. I wonder if, do you think that your time horizon was just sort of also shortened by the way that

your childhood went where it's like, like career, like I can't, I can't think past, you know, three weeks from now. I think that's really true. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't really imagine a future. And if I did, it would be like, what if it's like really bad? Right. Oh, no, it could be really bad again. Yeah. Right. That's always with me still. Yeah. What if it gets really bad again? Yeah. You know, Danny, it makes me think about- It's a very Jewish by the way. Oh yeah. Could be worse.

Could be worse. Yeah. It makes me think about your childhood and this is purely speculative, but wondering what it would have been like if your grandparents had not been around. Because you, Steven didn't really have this sort of rock of stability. Yeah, and financial stability. Financial stability.

Oh no. Emotional stability, a married couple that you could look at. And also someone who had made a success of themselves. And so it could give you this sort of vision of a future. Right, right. That you were, I think now, I think about you in school and like, you were always working towards some ambition. Yes. That I, obviously your dad was a lawyer,

but like the chaos of if it had been just him and then your mom trying to survive that. Yeah. Might have been very different. Oh my God. I think, I think it almost certainly would have been. I mean, like, look, my dad wasn't capable of making a living. So without my grandparents, you know, my mom was like very stable and like, you know, still not making a lot of money. Right. And she was supported in some ways by her mom and helped her buy her house and things like that. But yeah, I think it could have been in a very different direction, maybe more in the direction of what Kieran's childhood was like in terms of the homelessness or the

Yeah. Moving around. Yeah, and yeah, to you, Stephen, I was just thinking about that you didn't have that, you know, like when you were homeless and even now you're living with your mom, there isn't an island of stability anywhere in sight. It's just a drift. And I just, I think again, I feel like I keep saying this, I'm like laughing as I'm listening to this, but then I have to keep reminding myself of this little boy going through all of this.

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. It is. I mean, it's just, you know, and it's, it's, I, I said this in the first season, you know, I feel like, um, ridiculous in saying this, but I was so lucky as a kid, I lived in one house for 18 years. And we never moved, you know, my, I had my parents and like, I was 15, uh, and stability

was everywhere. I mean, you know, in my extended family, they were many, many issues of various types and whatnot, but like, I didn't, I couldn't, I didn't understand that other people lived like this. Like you said in a previous episode, like, this is just how all families are. I guess I assumed that also from my own perspective.

And now, you know, to hear this and to go through this with you and to put myself in your shoes. Um, I mean, it's a testament, I think to you and to you, Danny, that both of you guys are in this podcast studio and are functioning adults and not in a dark way. Roughly, relatively functional. Did you have anything you want to say to that?

I have a question that's connected to it. I would just say that I think looking back, part of what got us through or got me through was this idea that, I guess this is just what life is. I mean, I didn't know if I thought of it that way, but I just thought if I didn't know really, I mean, I would look around and be jealous.

Certainly West's family, you know, they had moved South by this time. But I just didn't, I just don't think I had anything to compare it to, in a way. Just one foot in front of the next. Pretty much, yeah. Yeah, I'm similar. But I guess my question, based on what Darren was saying about reminding himself that this is this 15-year-old boy, there's this little boy that's going through

all this. Like, how connected are you, Kieran, to the heartbreak of this saga? Like, it's so clear to me that you are connected to the humor. It's so clear to me that you are connected to the love. But like, yeah, what about the heartbreak of the kid in its core? You know, I feel like I did a lot of work to grieve it and to really understand, but it is ongoing. You know, I'm in a group right now that does look back at, you know, trying to identify the younger child

and then the older child, maybe a teenager that looks out or has tried to protect that tiny or tinier part of yourself. So I am, it's ongoing. So I am feel like I'm connected to it. It comes and goes. Yeah. Things can, you know, activated. It's ongoing. So I feel like I'm connected to it. It comes and goes. Yeah.

Things can, you know, activate it. I tried to avoid the word trigger, but no, it's okay. It was authentic. Yeah. What you just said. So no, I think it's, things get, I get triggered at any one time. So to be in touch with it,

I feel like I am in touch with it. When I revisit it, like when we just listen to it together. Yeah. My head is shaking and I just can't, I can't really believe it sometimes. Yeah. This particular story, I think this is more than any

other story, the one where I ask myself, did that really happen? Yeah. Did that really happen? Yeah. Did that really happen? I'll ask Sheila and Lisa and they'll go, yeah, that happened. Yeah. That happened.

I mean, it's just like, that is insane. Yeah. But even when you ask that question, that tells me there is a disconnect there happening because it's like, you're almost, you're remembering it, but you're almost observing it more than remembering it. But I don't think it's necessarily a straight line. It's like grief is, it's, it's sort of, um, I don't know, it has its own rules. It doesn't mean that I haven't grieved it.

It doesn't mean that I'm not in touch with it, but then it's sort of mercurial and we'll come back, like it'll, it'll be just like ghosts that don't necessarily haunt me, but that will go through you and you're like, ah, you know, and you just kind of feel that thing. Or it will show up in the strangest places when I don't want it to. Like what do you mean? Like any sort of financial bump, which is for anyone else who's just like, okay, money will come back or it'll this or that, that I'll feel that the ghost will sit next to me

and really like, I'll get cold. It's one thing during this era, living out there, I remember being cold a lot, like physically cold, because I feel like, is they're going to turn the heat off? And are we going to be able to pay? Now we always did, but then I would start to feel like, ah, that's what they do to people. When you're poor, you don't get heat or you don't get to eat as much.

And we always somehow did. Somehow. And then I started working. Yeah. And when I started working, I, you know, part of it was to work to, to help. Pay the bills. Yeah. Wow.

So, and I started working. I was, I remember selling flowers. At this time when you were 15, were you working? Yeah. So you were selling, like what, selling flowers? At the bottom, at the end of the off ramp. Wow. Oh wow.

You were one of those kids. And yeah, and also selling newspaper subscriptions to the Orange County edition of the LA Times. Oh wow. Which I always joke, made the LA Times seem sort of like an asshole. It's like, you're the fucking LA Times. Why are you pushing into Orange County? Yeah. You gotta have an LA Times seems sort of like an asshole. It's like, you're the fucking LA Times. Why are you pushing into Orange County? Yeah. You gotta have an LA Times down here.

You're not LA. No. So I was, I was, it was always instilled in us that we had to do these jobs. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It was never official, but you know. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, then, yeah. You also had a father who worked All your work and by the way, we were already in your dad much not at this point not a ton Yeah, I mean not off and on He's about to make a very big announcement. Yes. Yes. Yes Well, you do want to is that that's in the next episode. Is that right? It is in the next episode Yeah, why don't we why don't we talk about?

What that is just a snippet of what that's going to be. That's called Driving School Dad's Big Surprise and Blowing the Hatch. Yeah, this is, this is, this next chapter is me, what it was like living alone with my mom, because Sheila went off to college. And then dad drops bomb on the family. You know, it was just a big piece of news. And then I leave for college. All right. So let's hear a little snippet of next week's episode. Holidays at dad's were wall to wall.

It was raucous. A decibel level one might be subjected to in a major sports arena now compressed down into a two-story tract home in Northridge, California. One Thanksgiving, I found my father in the garage, smoldering near the recycling bin. I asked him if he was okay, and he answered with, There are so many people in my god damned kitchen right now. The holidays at Dad's always followed the predictable pattern of a feast that devolved into a desert orgy that inevitably ended in a death match disguised as the board game.

Trivial Pursuit. How to Destroy Everything presents Toughen Up is written, performed and created by Stephen Kieran. Executive produced by Darren Grotsky and Danny Jacobs. In partnership with Eastman Productions and 333 Productions. Story editing by Lisa Blair and Sheila Stevens. Music mixing and mastering by Arlo Sanders. Audio engineering by Glenn Eastman. Original theme music by Alan Simpson,

Original Artwork by Derek Yee, Kitchen Pep Talk by Joyce Kieran, thanks to Helen, Diane and Steve, Bob and Carla, Art and Joyce, Dave, Sean and the DeTye family. Special thanks to Mom, Dad, Lisa, Sheila and Joe. For questions, feedback and of course any stories about Danny's dad, we can be reached at I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com forward slash how to destroy everything. And of course, you can find us on Instagram and blue sky as well. How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever

you get your podcasts. Special thanks to Spotify Studios for the use of their beautiful recording space in downtown Los Angeles.