How To Destroy Everything - How To Destroy Everything Presents: Toughen Up - Episode 9: Crushing Blossoms and The Burden

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

It’s 15 years later and Eugene’s wife Helen dies very suddenly, leaving him very much adrift. At the urging of a priest, Stephen’s father learns to ask for help at the gravesite, then pushes on alone. In our interview, Danny and Darren learn how Stephen struggled, self-medicated and began to heal his past in the years since his mother’s passing. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything and please don't forget to share, rate, and review! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Toughen Up, written and performed by Stephen Caron. Episode 9, Crushing Bl now living back in Los Angeles. One Saturday night, my father was sitting at his dining room table, eating dinner with Helen, when she touched her temple, stood up, walked over to the couch, laid down, and never woke up, having suffered a massive aneurysm. I had been visiting them that Saturday morning, and I distinctly recall Helen sitting on the edge of a small bench in their backyard, crushing blossoms between her fingers, closing her eyes as she smelled them, and then raising her face to the winter sun. And I remember thinking in the moment that I had never seen her do that before.

My father, all of my cousin brothers, my sister cousin, Sheila and I were all crammed into a little hospital room for two days, hoping Helen would somehow come out of it. When it was clear she was declining, my father stepped out into the hallway and walked up to a red-faced chaplain who had been stationed outside the room, and he asked him to perform last rites for Helen. If I remember correctly, I believe the chaplain was eating either a bear claw or some sort of sugar-frosted flaked pastry, much of which had spilled down the front of his clergy shirt,

and wiping his full mouth he said, Oh, Mr. Curran, I can't do that. I'm no holdier than you. You need a priest. And I watched as my father squared off, and the corner of his lip curled up and he snarled, Get one. A short time later, everyone at the bedside stopped talking at the same time and looked in the doorway.

A slight, pale, white-haired Father Paul had arrived, and things suddenly got very real, because Father Paul seemed to be the kind of dude who brought a whole lot of real to whatever room he was in, and this was certainly no exception. He crossed over to Helen without acknowledging anyone, and performed last rites. I remember it feeling incredibly intimate and uncomfortable. When he was through, he took a seat and sat facing my father.

At one point he said, Eugene, we must never try to carry this burden on our own. When we do, it hurts us. And he had my father put his hands on his own knees and turn his palms upwards to the sky. A moment passed in holy silence. Then, as we watched in horror, Dad fished out a wad of bills and attempted to tip Father Paul, presumably to split with Saint Peter and maybe grease those gates a little. But the gesture was met with a cold, alabaster stare. He did not attempt to tip the chaplain, but we're pretty sure he would have taken a golden handshake and would have

accepted at least a twenty and some pop tarts. Helen died that evening on dad's 85th birthday. A couple of days later, my sister cousin Diane and I took Dad to the San Fernando Mission Catholic Cemetery to make arrangements for Helen's funeral. I remember Dad wasn't moving too well that day, so we accepted the receptionist's kind offer of a wheelchair for him. This gracious gesture was met with the crack of a crooked smile and a look that spoke, I'll get you for this. We'd heard from Dad for years that anyone in a wheelchair was most likely faking it to some degree and would probably benefit more from getting a goddamn job.

We sat in a small room around a table with a kind, soft-spoken man named Mario who laid out some beautiful brochures with some pricing plans and said something to the effect of, San Fernando Mission Catholic Cemetery offers a wide choice of burial options that accommodate the long-standing traditions of the Catholic faith, and cater to all family and cultural customs. My father waited patiently until he finished, leaned forward in his wheelchair, tapped twice on the pricing sheet, and said, "'You fuck us on this deal, Mario, and I'll kill ya.'"

I thought it was a good time to roll Dad out of the room until the color came back into Mario's face and his hands stopped shaking. "'Be right back,' I said as I pushed him out the heavy wooden door and started bumping down the beautiful California mission tiles. I returned the nods of a couple of passing nuns as I backed Dad's chair into a little prayer alcove underneath a statue of the Blessed Virgin. I crouched down to eye level, and in a loud whisper I said, You cannot threaten to kill someone in a funeral home. And he said, loud enough to echo off the adobe bricks,

He was trying to fuck us. He stared back at me, looking like a cornered street dog, and I reached back for the only weapon I had. "'Look, Dad,' I said. "'When we're done here, we're gonna stop it in an outburger.'" And like the Frankenstein monster, when he first heard the strains of the blind man's fiddle, he growled along. Low growled at me, and an improbable peace passed over his face as he slowly sat back in his wheelchair.

We're gonna get a little tray of those french fries, he said, and I just nodded, yes. Oh hell, yes we will. After Helen died, dealing with my father was like trying to put a pantsuit on a porcupine. The day of Helen's burial, when everyone started to walk back to their cars, I stayed with Dad as they front-loaded the very last of the dirt over the filled grave. My civil engineer father wanted to be extra sure they weren't fucking us on the soil

gradation and that they used the backside of that tractor bucket to tamp down a nice level base. He was sitting in a little folding chair that was half-sunk in the mud on one side, with tears staining his cheeks, his hands resting on his knees, with his palms facing upwards to the sky. Like that, right? He asked me. Dad tried to tough it out alone at the house like nothing had changed.

He still drove down to his office every morning at 5.30, but we eventually had to pry his keys away from him when his car began to exhibit troubling traces of untold horrors on the highway between home and work. We had to close his office eventually, but he refused to stop working, so we brought in all his drawings and spread them out on the dining room table. I think he thought he could stanch his grief somehow by continuing to pound away like a steel-driving hammer. I got off stage one Sunday night and I saw that Dad was calling me on his cell phone.

I answered it and an LAPD officer told me to please come up to the house as quickly as I could. When I got there, I found my father holding court with a circle of ten cops on his driveway. I also noticed that the bottom right quarter panel of his front door was missing. The lead cop took me aside and told me, We got a call earlier this evening from your father saying he was being held hostage in his den by men wearing white jumpsuits and face masks.

And they were all throughout the house and that there was even one sitting next to him right now. So they sent out about a dozen LAPD and they surrounded the house with weapons drawn and then knocked his door in with a battering ram, got in there, and found my father sitting alone in his den in the dark. There was no evidence of forced entry other than theirs. The cop told me that something similar had just happened to his mother-in-law and that she imagined something that didn't actually happen.

Has he been under a lot of stress lately? He asked. I walked back to the police barbecue on the driveway, and when the time seemed right, gently as I could, I said, Dad, just so you know, this didn't happen tonight, okay? No one was in the house with you. It didn't happen. And I remember dad looked at me, and he looked at the cops, and he wryly smiled and nodded as if to say, got it. Just between us, this didn't happen tonight.

Mum's the word, boys. Right. And I thought, good enough. The police left. I duct taped some cardboard over that quarter panel on the front door, and I put Dad to bed. I shut out the light, left the bedroom door half open, and stood in the dark hallway. Then I heard a small voice say, Stephen? Yeah, Dad.

Those guys in the jumpsuits, he said. You think they're coming back? And I said, no, Dad, no, they're not coming back. Just go to sleep. There was a short pause, and then a very different voice said, I hope they do come back. Let's lay a little trap for those sons of bitches. No, no, Dad, we're not going to lay a little trap for anyone. Let's just go to sleep.

I'll be down the hall in the living room on the couch if you need me. Good night. So I walked down the hallway and crawled into a sleeping bag. And as you're lying there in the dark, with the moonlight shining across the couch, and the big picture of Helen from the funeral home, which Dad refused to take down, is still there on the easel, watching you. There's a little part of your mind that wonders, did that happen? Are they coming back? This episode is brought to you by Lucy.

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to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30 day refund policy if you change your mind. Again, that's lucy.co and use code DEST refund policy if you change your mind. Again that's Lucy.co and use code DESTROY to get 20% off. And here comes the fine print. Lucy products are only for adults of legal age and every order is age verified. Warning this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Hey, everyone. This is Stephen. So, before we hear our episode 9 interview, a quick word about the episode 8 interview

from last week. In the interview, we were discussing the fact that my sister Lisa ran away. I believe that was in episode 2 or 3. But in last week's interview, I mentioned that my sister Lisa ran away from home after my mother struck her and then Lisa struck her back. But after hearing this interview for the first time, my sister Lisa was quick to correct a false memory of mine and told me she in fact never raised a hand to my mother. And I'd always heard otherwise, but my sisters and I are always fact-checking each other

to come as close as we can to the actual stories. And Lisa wanted to make sure we got that right. So in the spirit of accuracy and out of respect for our family, I wanted to make that important distinction. So thank you as always for listening, and please enjoy our next interview. Okay. All right. Episode nine, Crashing Blossoms and The Burden.

We are in the studio. I'm Danny Jacobs. I'm Darren Grotsky. I'm Stephen Kieran. So, Stephen. Did they come back? I was going to ask the same question. No, they did not come back.

They were not real. And no, they did not come back. They both were not real and they did not come back. They both were not real and they did not come back. Yeah. I guess maybe let's start by talking about, what I'm interested first is to talk about this, this is a 15-year gap, right, between the last episode and this one, is it right? Yeah, that's right. And what was in between that? I mean, like, you were sort of living with your mom having passed away. Like, what was your relationship like with your dad during, did it change at all during that time? Like, can you fill in some of the gap for us?

Pete Well, you know, I got out of college and I lived in San Francisco, started my career basically. So there was always, there was always that question with my dad, like, what exactly are you doing? You know, like, what do you mean? You know, when are you going to, so when are you going to go to work? You know, that kind of feeling. And so there was that, you know, I would see him fairly regularly at holidays and everything. Living up in San Francisco. That's for the longest time. And that's where my career started. And where we met.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yep, exactly. And then, yeah, and then as my dad started to get older, I moved down, we moved down. To LA. To LA. Was it specifically to be closer to him?

Partially, yeah, in a big way. And Joe agreed that we should do that, and also the industry, you know, so in those years, a lot happened in those 15 years. Yeah. In terms of your journey with, you know, to use the word that we don't love, but we use sometimes the work that you were doing on yourself. Yeah.

I mean, it was interesting to me that like in terms of episodes, the last episode obviously is when the one in which your mom passes away. And then we begin this one with Helen, sort of a lot of death here, but there's a lot of life that happened in the 15 year interim. Yeah. And then in terms of, like I said, yeah, your own journey with where you were at with all of this, I guess, I guess the first question is that like, you know, where were you in the sort of anger to wherever you are now spectrum? Hmm.

Well, I was definitely in anger. Yeah. But what had, what was kind of picked me up and was carrying me along was sort of the momentum of you could say youth, that the, you know, relative youth, but also my career was sort of picking me up and taking me along and I've seen some success.

You know, The Sims, even though it's a very small little niche thing, that was happening and I was making my living as an actor and I was just kind of barreling along for a while. So I think that helped to delay the inevitable, which is in life, you know, having to look at yourself or face whatever's chasing you in a way to let it catch up. And working and working was something I learned from my dad as a way to sort of just deny what's real. But I was struggling mightily all during those years, I feel, acting out addictively. And so I was trying to medicate, self-medicate.

And what happened over time is I was liken it to a boat on a lake, keeping with my transportation obsession, vehicles, vehicles, that when you stop, the wake actually catches you, right? It'll catch up and lift the boat up and suddenly things are choppy for a while. And then you start in. The analogy I always learned, I think I, did we talk about this on the, I don't know, the turkey pan? Oh yes, yes we did.

Yeah, so that's really what this felt like. Like I started to really have to dig in more, not just to deal with, you know, if you have physical addictions or behavioral addictions, that's just the very, first the house fire has to go out. Right. You know, that your blood has to get cleaned out in a way so that you can start this real examination and transformation. Which by the way, made me think of something, Danny. Yeah. We talk about forgiveness. In some traditions, there's a saying, which is you're not going to think yourself into right action, you're going to act yourself into right thinking.

So you don't even have to believe that you've forgiven somebody in order to start this idea of saying even out loud that you do, or acting in a way that you do. So you act as if, but you're not going to think your way out, because that's what got you here and will keep you there. You can't use the same system, I think is what Einstein said, right? That got you there. It has to be a different. I think that's really. Modality. Brilliant. Yes.

Yeah. And again, yeah, that's, that's just not mine. Of course. I'm just quoting. No, I'm going to, I'm going to attribute it to you. Stephen Kieran says. It just, something that just occurred to me, you guys. Yeah. Stephen Kieran told me. One thing that really struck me in this episode

is the, the moment when you tell your dad that you are going to go get in and out. Oh yeah. Is, is your Coke and candy moment. Oh yeah. Is your Coke and candy moment. Oh yeah. Right? Totally. Totally Coke and candy moment, exactly.

It's exactly what your sister did for you so many years ago. Get through this and we're gonna go get Coke and candy. And it worked, and it worked again. You know, it reminds me of Krav Maga. It's like whatever you have on hand is what you will use to get through or defend yourself, or that is your so-called weapon. So for me, that's all, the only weapon I had,

I was like, fuck, man, how are we gonna get through this? We gotta go back, we gotta face Mario and apologize, and we gotta do all this shit, and we've gotta get Helen in the ground. That's a terrible way to put that. No, but I understand. So same with Lisa, what have I got? Well, I saw that liquor store driving in.

I bet they've got cokes and candy bars. Yep. So that's really crazy. Yeah. Those are good burgers though, In-N-Out burgers with friandes. I gotta say. And the fries, tray of them. I gotta say, right.

And the fries, tray of them fries. You're damn right. Yeah, I'm like, as anything you want, man. Yeah. Yeah. Did you apologize to Mario? We did. Diane was in there doing just that when we walked in.

Diane, no one better than Diane, the Saint Diane. And yeah, and you know what? He'd seen it. I don't know if anyone had threatened to kill him directly, but I'm sure in his line of work, he's seen a lot of people acting out in grief. I remember picking out my mom's urn, and Sheila and Lisa and I were laughing our asses off.

And we kept apologizing to the guy, the urn display guy at the funeral home, this is back when my mom died and he stopped us. He goes, no, this happens every time. He goes, no, this happens all the time. No, no, please, please. This is, you were apologizing for this laughing as if that was inappropriate and disrespectful. He was like, it's totally fine. And it was not only is it totally fine. He's like, oh,

no, no, this is what, this is what happens. This is, this is life. Yeah. And it was like, wow, I'll never forget that. Wow. That's amazing. The first funeral that I ever went to, I mean, I was a kid, but my cousin and I, I just remember us, we couldn't stop laughing. Yes, right. It's like being in church or the temple or whatever, when you're told not to, that's not how life works. That's right. Well, you know what's interesting about that is you and your sister, you were, you had just dealt with the loss of your mom, right?

And it's like such a traumatic emotional thing. And then you think you should act a certain way. Okay. I have to act this way in this professional, well, not professional, but in this serene, serious place. Right.

I think that extends not just in the moment with the earn, but like in the years that follow after losing a parent, you know, you're like, okay, well, I've got to live my life. I've got to, I've got to act a certain way. And sometimes you don't deal with the grief. Yeah. You know, um, and I, I, I have my own experience

of having lost my dad when I was young, you lost your mom when you were pretty young. And it goes back to what we were talking about. And then at 15 year interim, maybe I have a follow up question on that period is like, do you think that you were dealing with this loss of your mom in that time, or were you burying it because you needed to focus on your career or you had your addictions?

Like, I guess at what point do you think you actually dealt with that loss? I don't know that you ever totally do. True. For whatever reason, I don't think we're tooled that way, because it allows for your heart to stay open enough, like just so you can relate. You know, that's a good question. I don't know. I can't really think about it, but I do think it was an ongoing cyclical, nonlinear understanding of also what happened to her.

I do remember during those years with the help of, I saw three great therapists. I had three, Al and Dale and Gail. And I know, wild. But they got me to understand it was through trying, seeking out some compassion for myself that I, that it was a natural understanding of their lives. Cause you start to look back and look at your lineage of look at the people that I came from. There was so much pain, so much seeking going on, seeking, cause you can't just say,

oh, I come from a bunch of alcoholism. No, that's code for people that are seeking a solution to something. That's right, yes, yes. They're looking to fix something. And sometimes we have a physical allergy to our attempt at a solution. Like they say, drinking wasn't my problem,

drinking was my solution. Right. And they're right, and thank God for it. Yes. Until you can't do it. And I don't begrudge anyone anything. No, but if it's destroying you and especially destroying the lives of others, that's something else. I don't know that I answered your question. No, I think so.

I mean, yeah, I think you're right. It's not a linear thing. It's never over. I guess I was curious about that gap. It think you're right. It's not a linear thing. It's never over. I just was curious. I guess I was curious about that gap. Mm hmm. It's a big gap. It's a big gap. And like the therapy and finding compassion with yourself, I think that's, I can sort of relate to that also in terms of dealing with it rather than, I guess I was just curious if you were dealing with it at all or if you were burying it completely.

No, there was no, there was no way I could bury it. It was just too present. I think it was just, I was overtaken. It was too obvious in a sense. It was too obvious in my cups, so to speak, that I was trying to outrun something. Yes. And how do you think that also, cause also during this time you, you have your marriage, you're married to Joe.

Like do you, in what ways do you think your childhood, this is a big question, but in your childhood, your, your, your experiences with your parents, the dissolution of their marriage, everything has fed into, in good and bad ways, your relationship with your wife. Wow, that's a really, that's a massive question. That's a massive question. Because the old saying, like we said, is that you become one parent and you marry the other.

Right. And then over time, they say it could switch. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. That you then become and then yeah. Wow. You know, I see the patterns all the time in myself, all the time with how I deal with things. You know, Jo, the thing Jo says most, how does she say it? She says, you don't have to be a tough guy. You don't have to be such a tough guy.

Don't toughen up. Yeah. Don't toughen up, you know? And she goes, you think you're such a tough guy? She goes, and I'm on the floor with our little dog who maybe, I don't know, she did something wrong and I'm like, it's okay, honey, you know, I'm down the floor with our little dog who maybe, I don't know, she did something wrong. And I'm like, it's okay, honey, you know, I'm down there. And because look, compared to real tough guys like my dad or even my brothers, you know, I joke that I always, you know,

compared to them, I feel like I'm a wood sprite they found on the edge of a logging camp. But I feel that's one thing that I still deal with is like trying to like just gut through things. Like it's okay to, like sometimes like if I have to take a nap in the middle of the day, like, you know, on a, you know, during the work week, you know, all these terms, I'm like, it fills me with like so much shame, like, I gotta time this so Joe thinks I'm doing something else. Or when she, if she happens to come home and I'm like, yep, I'm up and about. It's all this stuff like this,

stuff like that, that it shows up. Being misunderstood is something that shows up in our marriage. Like if I feel, no, you're misunderstanding me. Like I feel misunderstood. Did you feel misunderstood when you were a kid? Yeah, because I wasn't allowed to feel. Right, of course. At least not for any duration or not, if it wasn't in the narrow time period or of the standards, it just simply wasn't allowed because, you know, or me taking responsibility

for Joe's feelings. That's a big one because I thought that I was going to kill my mother. I was going to either put her in the hospital or I'm going to kill her if I have emotions, all this insane, you know, this, you know what's interesting? You know what's interesting? Some people can grow up with an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. Overdeveloped and I think, I believe that's what I grew up with. Interesting. So it's funny during the recent years where accountability is definitely something on the table, like of course, you know, we got all of us, it's all, it all goes back to the individual. This country, I'm pointing to myself, this theater company,

whatever, whatever you're in, this, this podcast, I point to me. It's all got to start there. That relationship, the relationship there, but I can honestly say I have gone too far because I was raised to believe I caused my parents' divorce. All of it is just self-centered. Yeah, you had so much power. Yeah. That's right. Now, I will tell you this, self-centeredness, when you see it as a diagnosis as opposed to an indictment, you just simply look at it with some compassion and just understanding like some of us

are self-centered in the extreme. And that's, we're just made that way. If we can just get off our back long enough to understand it's okay, it's a very human thing. Sometimes we are that way, it doesn't define us, but that's something I think that growing up in our family that I brought with me too is that I'm self-centered in the extreme. And knowing that now, I can see it.

And it's a, to the best of my ability, it's OK, buddy. Yeah. What would I say to my nieces or my nephews or my son, my imaginary ghost son? You guys have real children. That I would just go or my nephews or my son, my imaginary ghost son, you guys have real children, that I would just go or my, or like you said, my 15 year old self. One of the first things I would say,

I would always think is like, it's okay, man. You don't have to apologize. I used to apologize when I would cry. Oh my gosh. When I would cry. And it's like, you know what? For now, I'm going to stop apologizing for being a human fucking being just for a little while.

I'm sorry that I'm having a human experience. It's like, what on earth? Right. Right. That's like, look, man, when you broke down on the podcast, part of me, I just, I remember sitting down, like I sat down in a chair listening to it, I had my headphones on and I just thought, oh, thank God. Yeah.

And I hope he doesn't apologize. I don't remember if you did or not. I don't remember either. But it's so automatic. Yes, you're right. Yeah, yeah. In our weakness, we are strong. Yeah, I love that.

You have to surrender to win. There's different ways that the wiser souls have said over the years, but in my weakness, I am strong. Yeah. I'm open. I think that's so beautiful. I agree. Find the best quote of that from someone else and then take credit for it next week.

Yeah, yeah. That's your homework. We'll yeah, we'll tell everybody. Thank you, Stephen Kieran. I think I may have said all these things. You did, I think so, one time or another. Upon reflection. Yeah. You got that listeners, Stephen Kieran. So, Danny Jacobs, here we are nine weeks into season two.

Yes, sir. And it's been a minute since we checked in on you. It's been several months I should say since we wrapped up, you know The the finishing of this podcast in terms of your story and I guess I'm curious You know, have you? Are things different for you now? Do you feel like well? Yes. Yeah I mean, I mean first of all have, I should say I've, I've left my family and have moved to, to Barstow, where I'm a bartender.

And I very much enjoy my new life. It's obviously I knew this, everybody. I just wanted to get Danny to say it out loud for the, for the podcast audience. I miss you. Yeah, so do I. I do. Well, you guys get a drink on me anytime you come to the bar. No, I mean, look, there are, what I'll say is, I've been very much enjoying, you know, Darren, you and I have been rewriting the TV pilot based on How to Destroy Everything, and that's been a great deal of fun

to be sort of in the fictionalized version of this space. It's glorious. We're like writing a screenplay again. It's delightful. There are other things that I would say like I'm still kind of wrestling with, particularly in and around Karen. For those that remember, Karen is my family member

who has essentially severed a relationship as a result of the podcast. There's a lot of anger that I have felt towards her because of that. And you know, if anybody listened to, for those that have listened to the first season, if you haven't, this is all gonna be very confusing. But you'll remember there was a,

I have this family call that happens zoom that happens every week. And you know, even just last yet, even just yesterday, Karen was made known that she was going to be on this zoom, she's not on it every week. And so I didn't show up on it. And it makes me sad, like, I'm like, oh, I guess this is a week when I'm not gonna catch up in that way with my family. I mean, I can reach out in other ways, of course, but like, because I just, I think I just have still

too much anger around it to even be on the same Zoom as her. And obviously it's complicated also because it means my kids don't see her, but she's sort of a persona non grata now in our house. My kids have not even asked about her in months and months. I don't even know if they remember her at this point. It would just- Well, let me ask you this. Are you sad that your kids don't know her or does it not bother you?

I think, I don't know. When I was a kid, I would often think about, I think coming from like the kind of fractured, crazy nature of my family, like I often had this desire to be around a bigger family because it was something, you know, and so when I put, when, when from that perspective, it makes me sad because I'm like, Oh, I bet my kids would want to know more family members, but I don't know.

I don't know. They also don't have that instability. So, but I mean, it still bothers me that I've made a choice essentially for them to not have this relationship. But I also don't think that it would have been necessarily a healthy relationship, given that Karen has, in my view,

a lot of the same similar tendencies that my dad had. Like, I don't know how that's a positive impact in their life, you know? Well, and you haven't made that choice entirely on, I mean, Karen has some agency here in terms of her not having a relationship with your kids. I mean, I realize she's... Well, that's right. In fact, the last time I really spoke to her was when, was like last year when I was bringing the family to St. Louis and I reached out to her several times to be like, Hey, do you want to see my kids? And she just refused to speak to me.

She wanted to speak to my wife only. And so I couldn't, I mean, I tried, but she put restrictions on it that made that impossible. Kieran, do, have you ever had moments in your family's life where there's people not speaking to people over extended periods of time? Did the Irish do that? Because the Jews sure do. Pete Oh, yeah, the Irish certainly do. We always said there was a joke in our family, remember when you bury the hatchet, just remember what part of the yard it's in. Pete So, you can go get it, be sure to just put a little flag or something there, you can go get it.

Oh yeah, I mean, Lisa and I, for a long time, I think we're at odds for different reasons. I don't know, I think both of us would sort of admit now, I don't know, maybe we weren't seeing the person, we were projecting onto them so much. I'm not saying that's going on with you, Danny. I'm not saying that's going on with you, Danny. I'm just saying, to answer your question, Darren, yeah, oh yeah, lots of times, I think, in different ways. I think my question, Danny, is there anything that Karen could do that would make a difference for you? What do you want from her in a way? Yeah, I mean, look, I think at a minimum, it would be some kind of recognition from her that she wants to have a relationship with my children that is, like she's willing to be an adult and be like, okay, even if she's not going to talk to me, like, or she's going to not going to have a relationship with me, I understand, but that she would, like, even just, just

handle the logistics with me so that I can arrange for my children to see her. You know what I mean? And yet, beyond that, that all makes sense, of course,, but beyond that with you personally, is there anything that she could do? Jared I mean, like in a perfect world? Pete Yeah. Jared I would love for her to see that the creation of how to destroy everything ultimately does not have to do with her and is not indictment on her and

or the family or the family and was and was and remains the way that I could explore my own story and that my dad is part of that story and that I have a right to some ownership over that. I mean, that's what I want her to do is to have that recognition. And what I'd like is for her to come on the podcast. Let's have a discussion on the podcast. That would be something. I think that's what the audience wants too. Yeah. Clearly, yeah. This is an incredible cliffhanger.

So Karen, come on. Yeah, come on, Karen. It's all ongoing and it's all still kind of rife with emotion and I'm still just trying to, trying to, you know, baby step my way through it basically. Aren't we all? Yeah. That's right. In this life, yeah.

Well, thank you, Danny. Thank you, Darren. Thank you, Danny. And thank you, Stephen. Thank you, Stephen. Oh, you're very welcome, both of you. My goodness, here we are, a tip, here we are, tip of the cap. The tip of the cap.

Okay, so that'll do it for episode nine, but before we leave you, as per usual, we want to provide a little sneak peek into next week's episode. As a note, episode 10 next week is the season finale of How to Destroy Everything Presents, Toughen Up. So here it is, a preview of next week's finale. in reference to my marriage after my wife left the room the night prior, and he pinned my arm to the blankets, quote, Don't fuck that up.

The following day, he looked up at me from the hospital bed, shrugged and said, Well, I guess something's gotta getcha. And then he worked his hand out from under the blankets and shook my hand. How are you? He asked me.

How are you today? How am I today? Later, I watched him ask other people the same question. How to Destroy Everything presents Toughen Up is written, performed, and created by Stephen Caron. Executive produced by Darren Grotsky and Danny Jacobs. In partnership with Eastman Productions and 333 Productions. Story editing by Lisa Blair and Sheila Stevens. Music mixing and mastering by Arlo Sanders. Audio engineering by Glenn Eastman. Original theme music by

Alan Simpson. Original artwork by Derek Yee. Kitchen pep talk by Joyce Kieran. Thanks to Helen, Diane and Steve, Bob and Carla, Art and Joyce, Dave, Sean, and the DeTye family. Special thanks to Mom, Dad, Lisa, Sheila, and Joe. For questions, feedback, and of course any stories about Danny's dad, we can be reached at Iknowrichardjacobs.gmail.com If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com forward slash howtodestroyeverything and of course you can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky as well. How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up is available on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Special thanks to Spotify Studios for the use of their beautiful recording space in downtown Los Angeles.