How To Destroy Everything - How To Destroy Everything Presents: Toughen Up - The Interview with Lisa and Sheila (Bonus Episode)

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

In this special bonus episode, we hear Toughen Up from the shared perspective of Stephen’s sisters, Lisa and Sheila. Hear how they navigated a childhood of fear, loss and abandonment, and more importantly, where they are today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Prime Day is here so you can get a great deal on a new footspah Transforming you into the queen of kicking it. Wait, this has bubble jets Okay shop great Prime Day deals now Hello everybody. It's Danny Jacobs here alongside Darren Grotsky and I'm Stephen Kieran and I'm Stephen Karen you guys thought you were done with us you are not you never gonna be able to quit us yes we know the finale happened but we've got something else for you today it's a little special bonus episode yeah you know this season this story that Stephen has been telling us there's been two characters his sisters that have been ever present in the storytelling, but, you know,

absent obviously from, um, from the podcast. And we really, really wanted to talk to them. You know, it reminds me a little bit, Danny, in season one of, of like, how badly we wanted to talk to your brother and how interesting it was to hear the siblings. Talk. Well, um, we finally had a chance to sit down with Lisa and Sheila. Stephen, you want to tell us a little bit about that? Stephen Eckert Well, I, to be honest, as I told you throughout, I had no idea whether they would

agree to do this. And so, I was completely blown away and terrified that they said yes. And it took a little cajoling, you know, I won't say who was harder to cajole than the other, but ultimately they agreed and I'm so grateful that they did. Pete Yeah. And so, we thought this conversation was so fascinating that we wanted to give it to you all, our listeners, as a bonus episode here at the end of the season. So without further ado, enjoy and Lisa for joining us. How is everybody feeling? Are we all, how are we all feeling?

Are we nervous? What's, what's the vibe? Oh, I'm nervous. I'm Sheila. I'm nervous. Terribly nervous. Why are you guys nervous? What's the vibe? Oh. I'm nervous. I'm Sheila, I'm nervous. I'm terribly nervous. Why are you guys nervous? I don't know. Why am I nervous?

It's a little personal. Yeah. You're just bearing it. You're bearing your family's soul for public consumption. What to be nervous about? I know. And Steven's done that for years. So really we should be used to it.

Right. No, it's just- It's him, right? Usually it's Stephen doing that. It's exactly right. Yeah. It's just nerve wracking. For me, I've never done a podcast, obviously,

and you just go, oh, yeah, do you want to talk about this? And I always tell Stephen, no, but yes. No, because I think it's valuable and important. And the biggest thing is to be of service to other people so they don't feel like they're alone and there's hope. But the other part of you goes, oh, no, I've lived in shame, humiliation, and embarrassment. I don't want to talk about this. Oh sure, I know that feeling well.

Yeah. And Stephen Kieran, how are you feeling? How is this for you? Incredibly codependent. I'm just over here here just ready for anything. If anyone needs anything, I can run to the kitchen. I'm just sort of, yeah, I'm just twisting knobs and dials inside of myself. You know what, Stephen? Stephen, I get it a little bit because you are the youngest

of the family with two older sisters. I also am the youngest with two older sisters. And when I'm with my sisters, even now in middle age, I revert to being the young baby brother and I feel very codependent. And so the idea of doing this publicly with my sisters is sort of daunting, but just in general, is that how you are when you are with Lisa and Sheila? Do you suddenly become baby brother again?

I feel that's true. Don't you think you guys somewhat? I mean, we all fall into our roles, if you will? I don't know. I think we do, but I don't necessarily, I mean, I think those are good points, but. It's both, right? It's both and.

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of, yeah. I think we, at times, depending on the situation, you'll fall into that younger brother, but we, like Lisa said, we do have roles and we all wear them well when we're together. The older bossy boots sisters. Oh no, you're more bossy boots because you're the middle and you want to save every, well, I want to save everybody as the older sister, but Sheila's always called herself bossy boots because you're the middle and you want to save every, well, I want to save everybody as the older sister, but Sheila's always called herself bossy boots

and it's hilarious. She's more officious about it all. Yes, I'm just trying to fix the world. I've fixed the family. I'm the middle child. And you guys have, I mean, I know that you have heard all of the toughen up episodes, correct? I have, yes. I have not heard them on this, on his podcast, but on Substack, but I have seen the show several times. I see.

So I know the whole story. Just a little too busy for the Substack episodes, are you? Just a lot going on in my life that it just, I can't take it on right now. No, I understand. I understand. Well, I'm curious just very generally, how you guys, whether it's the show or the Substack, the podcast episodes,

what was your response to it all? Do you wanna start, Lise? You want me to go? You can start. Okay. I think it was, well, it's been very interesting and we're both so proud of Stephen for sharing this and we were such a big part of it, I'd like to say Stephen, when we started and we edited

it together. We went through the whole story during COVID and we would go when Stephen would not let us read. I thought we were going to get a, you know, here's chapter one, read this and let me know. And he wouldn't do that. He would read it to us. And we would edit it together. In fact, the first week he said, someone is crying, please mute your phone, or we're never gonna get anywhere. So we worked together. And so it was interesting how we all saw things so different, but it was

good therapy to work it all out together. So it was fun to fun might not be the best word, but it was good to learn and go over these stories again and share them. And I'm just really proud of Stephen for putting it out there and helping other people really does help people, as we all know. So it's just I could see the show, and I was able to see his show. And that was a little harder for Lisa. So now it's kind of flipped. It's been a little harder at the point in my life right now to listen to his stories, even though I've seen it in person, but it's just a little bit different for me at this point.

I find it interesting, Sheila, how you described, we all see it differently. We agree, we all had to agree, remember like factually, okay, did that happen? And the rule was if two of the three of us could confirm, yeah, that happened, because a lot of times we were asking, did that really happen? You know, it was like, wow. And then, but to how we see it differently is I think really key to, yeah, that's really just how it is, right? I mean... And that has to do with birth order, I imagine too, and the whole way you explain things. So... Say more about that.

Well, I think, you know, I'm always the fixer when you talk about situations, I'm always trying to fix it. So when we look at situations, sometimes I think, should I have done that? Or should I have? I know Lisa, I'm not putting words in Lisa's mouth, but you know, she's the oldest, I should have protected, I feel like I should have fixed it better, we should have gone this way with that situation. So I think it makes you reflect in different ways and makes you look at I think how we land is how we viewed some of those situations too. Interesting. Can you articulate for me, like broadly what,

was there some commonality in terms of the way each of you saw the facts? Oh, that is a very good question. I am not taking that. It hurt. Yeah. I think, you know, when you're growing up, you think that your family's like every other family, right?

You don't know any different. Right, it's your only frame of reference, yeah. Exactly, but at some point maybe in each of our minds, in the back of our minds, thought, something's a little different in this house. There's a little bit of dysfunction, but you couldn't put your finger on it until we were a little older, for me anyway,

and I think that's how I viewed it. But we really, you know, again, when you are growing up in a family, you think, oh, this is the same as every family. But it's not true. No. I remember walking into another kid's house and they had furniture. And I thought, huh, that was like an early tip. Like, huh. It was like when I realized that dad was Santa Claus, you know, mom and dad. Like when I noticed that Santa Claus had unbelievable penmanship, like my dad does, like an engineer. And he writes like an engineer. I guess that makes sense. I mean, he's Santa Claus. He's got to keep his eye on everything and it's laid out in a certain way. But no, over time you're like,

huh. And our friends would come over and go, we don't have tin foil on our windows. We do. What are you guys going to catch up with us? This episode is brought to you by Bubbly Cleaning. So boys, a few weeks back, I guess a month now, we were about to go on vacation. Get it right, Danny, what's the timeline? How long ago was it, Danny? I just, we were going on vacation,

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As they're known. I love that other curtain. By the way, what a strange commonality between Danny, your family, and the Kierans. I noted that in that episode, like just odd. Yeah, just a different medium for blocking out the world. Yes, yes, exactly. And keeping it in too.

Yes, and keeping it in. Exactly. And then, so there's a commonality there. What about, how would you each describe what the differences are in your perspectives on those facts? I think much of it is the same. I just think that, like, I have this savior thing, because I do think birth order makes a huge difference in how we view the world, that I think I have always,

always felt like I let them down. Always. Not from Sheila and Stephen, ever. But like, why couldn't I get us to a better place, a safer place? We just never could. And I could only do so much. Pete I have to say, Lisa, you did for a lot of times, not to mention you were trying to adopt us at age 18, 19 years old. You did, I mean, Sheila and I said it to your face. No, no, I know. I know, but I mean, but also let that land, you know, you saved our life and couldn't in the larger sense save us in a way, but man, I'll tell you, I don't know what would have happened had you not swept in or drove by in the freaking

Bentley at times. So, Your Majesty. But it couldn't stay too long because then mom would have slapped you both. That's right. Right. We would have gotten the wooden spoon. That's right. We snuck out when you worked at Walden Books and kept us in the back room.

Yes. Lisa worked at a bookstore on the mall and we would go and hang out. I remember crying in the children's book section. Oh, gosh. Seeing a sequel. Yeah. I was just gonna tell you all really quickly, so I couldn't, I know it hasn't been out for very long but the your last episode Danny it took me the finale. Sorry. I took me a couple day. I couldn't listen to it I just had to gear myself up. Oh, wow. So I listened to oh no It's not an easy listen and none of them. None of your episodes are for me. None of them. Yeah It's not an easy listen. None of them. None of your episodes are for me. None of them. But it was interesting that I, so yesterday I'm like, okay, well, now we're down to the

wire, maybe you should listen to it, sister. So, I listened to it and I was like, it was interesting to me, because I've told Shiel and Stephen this, that sometimes when I hear Stephen's stories, which are our stories, maybe at different times in our lives, you know, because maybe I wasn't around with some of them. I mean, I knew about it. But I never once with your stories ever, I just realized this when I was listening to it yesterday, did I ever think, oh, Danny, are you being a little over the top? Are you really embellishing a little? But I do that with Stephen, not for very long, but part of me is like, this is so unbelievable.

I'm like, Stephen. Then I'm like, oh yeah, he's telling the truth. And I know that you're telling the truth, but there's so much more and so many more layers Yeah, that you're not sharing which is which is fine Yeah, but it's just like us like Stephen hasn't said everything right, but he said enough Yeah No, no, I think that's that's true. It's like you said enough that we get it just like you said enough that we get it. We get the gist. I'm going to just, you know, and

for what it's worth, Lisa, like in hearing your story, like, and we, Darren and I, and Stephen talked about this, which is like, I think that your relentless kind of pursuit of taking care of your younger sisters is very evident throughout the whole twisted journey. And I just think, you know, there are times when we were just dumbfounded at your, the lengths that you were going to try to put them in a better place for what it's worth. Lisa, even in small ways, I forget how Danny worded it, but I actually wrote it in one of the descriptions of one of the podcasts. I think just the power of small things or just something like that. But even Lisa, going out for cokes and candy bars when you knew we were so scared and so lost and it was raining and we're in Canada and it's cold and we don't have a home, I

mean, just on and on. I was screwed, totally and completely screwed. Totally. Right, we're eating rock bread and a piece of cabbage. Broth, a little broth in there. A little broth, yeah, just for some freaking broth. With a piece of lettuce. Yeah, a little thing. It wasn't even cabbage.

No, it wasn't even, right. And you said, get through this and then I have a treat, we'll do a treat. And just to know that, just to do that and just something to shoot for in a way, a little bit of hope if you will, you know, I don't know, there was also so much beauty in that. I mean. We really felt like that was a hero moment, Lisa. The Cokes and Candy Bars was, oh my God, like from the lowest low to this like absolute, you know, delightful peak.

Um, the, the, the, the emotional, one of the things that, that, that I feel like I keep bringing up as we've been going through toughen up is like trying to put myself in little boy Steven's shoes, uh, and Sheila, and also you Lisa, I mean, you know, you're, you're hard on yourself, but you also were in it. You know, you, you were older. Yes. But you were older, yes, but you were also a child going through all of this. True.

And so anyway, putting myself in the shoes of Pickley Steven in that moment and like imagining the joy of that Coke and that candy bar. I mean, that is incredible. Can you recall that moment? Like, what do you remember about your decision to do that? No, it's so embarrassing to say this. I don't remember most of that trip, but my sister and

brother do, but it was so heavy. I was so responsible for them. I had my dad saying things like, just turn up the radio if the car starts to make a noise. And I'm like, oh my God. Maybe we need a better radio. Yeah, that's really what it's there for. You call home because you need some money for gas and your dad gets mad at you. And I'm like, what am I going to do? I've got these two kids. So to me, that's why I told Stephen, I forgot which episode that we were talking about. And I said, well, I shouldn't even be on that one because you and Sheila remember, and Sheila has a great, great, great memory. And I said, I don't remember much of it. I just remember it being-

Danny relates to that. I was going to say the same thing, Danny. You always talk about how your brain is Swiss cheese for so many things that happened. Yeah. Oh yeah. And it makes sense. I mean, all the weight was on your shoulders, Lisa, at that time. So it makes total sense that it's not a part of your ability to recall those events. That was a heavy burden. And block it out. I remember in that, I mean, oh, go Lisa, go.

No, I just think it's just tragically sad not to. We should have had a ball, had fun, and I guess I did terrible things to Stephen. Did I hand him that after I punched him? I don't know. In the face, I just wanna say in the face. And I literally, literally do not remember that. But I think I was, it was raining, I think, and I was trying to find a place for us to

go and I was out of my mind with stress. Yeah. Oh man. We had just gone over the Bay Bridge twice. We had taken the wrong turns and I remember we had gone over the Bay Bridge twice. We had taken the wrong turns, and I remember we had gone over the Bay Bridge twice, and that was like, you were fit to be tied. You were like, how did this happen? End of the rope, end of the rope there.

And it makes sense, because I had not driven like that before, but oh, they just let me go. Goodbye, you kids, good luck. Turn the radio up. See you later. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, it sounds ridiculous when you say it now all these years later, but I wouldn't have anymore let my kids or grandkids do anything like that than float it. Well,

today it's different. Today we've got phones and we've got, it's a lot different, but those days? Are you kidding me? And guns, we have a lot more guns. Yeah. So guns and phones, I mean. It's way different, yeah. Hello. Right.

Insurance policies, no need to turn the radio up. So I just think there was just so much heaviness, so much adulthood, even though in a lot of ways I felt, I felt, I'm not saying she'll and Stephen feel like this, like I helped raise them because our mom and dad certainly weren't around all the, well, mom was around, but she was sleeping or next door at the neighbors or whatever, not functioning. You would raise them a little, she would lower them a little, raise them a little. Exactly. That's a very good way to say it.

Lisa, you said something when mom was near the end of her life and I thought it applied to what you just said and it was this, I remember we were in the cafeteria at the hospital, and you said, if this is what it means to be a grownup, I don't want anything to do with it. And I mean, and we all looked at you, and we thought, God, you would know. You would know because of having to adult the living daylights out of our life.

That day you picked us up at the motor lodge, at the travel lodge, and took us to meet dad. He gave us a wad of bills. Off we went. Yeah. Oh my God. This episode is brought to you by Quince. You fellas know this about me.

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But I'm just curious if you guys could talk a little bit about your relationship to anger as it relates to everything that happened. There goes Danny, obsessed with anger yet again. And has every right. Yes. Hear, hear, agreed. Hear, hear. I would say my anger, I did feel a lot of anger,

but I felt it more since I've had children. And I think, when my son was 12 years old, I think, oh, this is right the time that my parents left me. And you think, as a mother, a working mother, and a husband that's working, and the big joke was, okay, ladies, friends, stressful moms, I'm going to the airport right now and I'm getting on the first plane. I don't care if it goes to San Luis Obispo, it doesn't matter to me, I just need to

get out of here. And we joke around about that. And then I say, but my mom did that. She got on the plane and she took off. And then dad said, I'll call you back in a few days. And so it makes me angry to think, oh my gosh, how could you do that? It's hard and it's stressful. And it makes me angry at both of them, but they were doing what they could and trying to get through the best they knew how.

But I think when it was happening, I was more like Okay, we got to figure this out I at that point Lisa was older and I felt like I needed to take care of Stephen and figure a way out of this and Just put my nose to the grindstone and moved on but yeah, I wasn't I didn't have time back then to be angry about it I waited, you know many many many years Right thought that that's when I felt angry about it. I waited, you know, many, many, many years. Right. Thought that that's when I felt angry about it. Lisa, what about you?

I think I was angry for many years, but I, but I just realized that it didn't serve me. it didn't serve my family, that I needed to, I just didn't want to be angry anymore. But I also feel very strongly that I personally couldn't heal until I was recognized the anger in part of me somewhere in between, I believe, Stephen and Danny. And I think that has come from just having some life experiences, raising the kids, raising the kids, knowing that what they did was crazy. Because somewhere in my mind you're still a kid, and you want to believe make sense and I realize it will never make sense. But I also believe in some ways it was a gift because it taught me how I wanted to parent because I certainly didn't want to parent like them. And I'm not saying everything they did was wrong by any means, but most of it was.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, and I think that's so profound that the idea that it doesn't make sense and it won't make sense, that there's an element of just the chaos of it that will never be fully understood and that accepting that feels so important and valuable. Yeah. I agree. And it helps me to, I like to do family history and see who's in the past and read stories of like particularly my dad's family. And they had a hard life, they were farmers, but we think. Miners too.

We think they were, and miners, that they were relatively normal. Now, they could be wrong. We could find other things out. But, you know, I think our parents did do the best they could, but I also think on some level, whatever that is for people, the universe, whatever, you're still held accountable. I think they still, and in my mind, that helps me to go, they did their best, but there's a but for me.

But you're still accountable for what you did to us. Yes. But not in a, I hate you. You're terrible. They were broken as well. And I get that. Yeah. Would you say that you've forgiven mom and dad, Lisa and Sheila?

Is it a forgive, but don't forget? Or what, what do you, where are you around forgiveness? Cause for Danny, I remember that's such a big theme. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you guys with that? with for Danny, I remember that's such a big theme. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you guys with that? I think I can say I've forgiven them and, but never forget, especially when your brother's

telling the world all about it. Sorry, sorry about that. Yes, that does make it hard. People call me and say, Sheila, is that your brother? No. But I think I can forgive. But certainly, you know, sometimes these memories come up and then it kind of jars you. So you never really forget any of it, where you came from and how you were raised,

and even more so when you're raising your own family, right? So I can forgive. I think I'm past the forgiveness stage. And I'm, I think, I'm not sure. Like I said, I think I'm kind of in between Danny and Stephen and Sheila because even though I'm old, I'm still trying to figure it all out. Like how did it get so bad? How did it get to, but I'm looking at it also with eyes of today where we have so many more

things available to us. Different counseling, different medicines, different situa- it just, I have to remember they didn't have help and I mean they did but it's not like today. And I also have a very different relationship with mom and dad than Sheila and Stephen, but Gabor Mate says each child has a different relationship with their parents in the same home. True. Which I think is very, very true.

Because like, I feel sad sometimes when Sheila's like, don't you miss mom? Our mom loved to iron, so we'd save our ironing for mom. No, I don't miss mom. I never, ever, ever, ever has missed her, ever. I think there was a relief when she died because the abuse stopped. Because it didn't matter. It didn't matter that I was older. She still was desperately mean to me. I'm manipulative. Yeah. I'm in a very good, yes.

So it's not like I'm like, oh Sheila, how can you miss mom? I'm like, I wish I could miss her too. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by One Skin. Guys, at the risk of sounding unprofessional, you both look incredible. Oh.

Well, as my wife would say, bless your heart. Bless your heart, thank you. There's a reason for that, Karen. There is a reason, which is that both of us. You're younger? Well, that goes without saying. But both of us, well, that's, that's, that's goes without saying. Um, but both of us, Darren and I have been using One Skin, which is this- Danny, you're giving away our secret.

I know, but it's, it's okay. I w- cause I want, I want Kieran to feel as good as we feel. Cause it's, it's, it's been great. I mean, One Skin is, is a series of products that, that really rejuvenate your skin and we've been using it for a couple months and I'm never going back, honestly. Me neither. It's founded and led by an all-woman team of skin longevity scientists.

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It's just, I think about that a lot, the quickness of it, and what that was like for you. Really, do you have to meet me? I've gone through half a box of Kleenex, guys. Thank you so much. This portion of how to destroy everything is brought to you by Kleenex. Kleenex. I think I tried to deal with that my whole life, my whole entire life. Because

I think, and Sheila and Stephen, this is not what I saw with them, and they may disagree with me, and that's fine. I just wasn't useful to my mother. She didn't really need me. Wow. So, for me to leave, she just wanted the car back that she couldn't drive, and then I was gone. What is it in the Jewish religion when somebody dies and you rip your shirt, rent?

Yes, right. That's what I felt like. Like I had died and she had done that. That I was of no use to her. And the irony of course is that you were of immense use to your siblings. Siblings. You were essential. You saved them. Oh for sure. But mom would come back and forth a little bit. Lisa, didn't she come back and yes she needed you obviously for something.

Of course. So then she would come back? Yes. Because she needed you, obviously, for something. Of course. So then she would come back. A really big thing in my life, blessing, which is that she loved my husband. Not me, but my husband. And that helped a lot. It helped a lot. I'm sorry I'm crying you guys.

No, no, no. Of course. No, go ahead Sheila. And the irony, additional irony in this, is mom gets sick and you're the one. I know poor thing. That has to help her. Sheila and Stephen were of little to no help.

Liar. We took off. We just left. Sheila and Stephen were of little to no help. Liar. We took off. We just left. They decided, we're not going to go down and help her. No, that's not true at all. And I remember saying to her, I'm so sorry I know you want Sheila. I'm so sorry.

She goes, I know I really don't want you. I know, Mom. It's okay. Wow. Wow. Wow, even in that moment. Wow. Yeah. Lots of those moments. Oh yeah, she just, I'm like, well, isn't this an irony?

And then Lisa gets to take care of her. Okay, goody two shoes. Steven was with her at the end, but it was just their circumstances. Mine just happened to be, I lived closer to her. Right. Sheila was having a baby. Stephen was...

I moved down there. Yeah. Yes. So, and we figured it all out and we talked all the time and it was... There was total support, I feel, on my end, there was total support. But of all the things, I'm like, oh. And one of the, she had to set boundaries with my mother because if you didn't, oh man, you were in big doo-doo.

And I had taken her, I'd asked if I could take her car, because it was better on gas than mine, but it was really, we couldn't have her drive. And one day I'd taken her to chemo and dropped her off and she said, Sheila probably remembers this, she said, I'm so sorry. And I thought she might say, because I had to come over here and leave the kids or whatever, because I was about an hour from her. And she goes, oh, you are just so ugly and your teeth are terrible. and she goes on and on. And she had not totally lost her mind at that point, other than her whole life she had lost her mind.

And I said, Mom, I didn't yell at her, I wasn't mean to her, Mom, you've talked to me like that my whole life. If you ever say something to me like that again, I'm done. I won't ever speak to you again. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Then she went in the house and called Sheila and said, I think I made a mistake. Really? Really, Sherlock. Wow. Wow. Did she ever speak to you like that again? Nope. Nope. Well, when we...

Well, there's that time. No, she didn't really. When we had to put her in a... What was it, Sheila? It was a nursing facility. Like a nursing facility. Thank you, Steven. Hospice. Right, right. Yes. It was a nursing facility. Like a nursing facility, thank you, Stephen. Hospice. Right, right.

It was hospice. Because she was at my house and she was throwing her cigarettes on the ground in my house. I have kids at home. Anyway, it got really bad with her and she put her medicine, I don't know how the woman found medicine, I'd have their morphine way up high and the woman was tiny and she could get it down. I don't know how she did it. And I had a crazy three-year-old, our daughter, and I was like, okay, we got to do something with mom, because I didn't mind having her in her house.

I mean, I feel like she's my mother. Like, that's the right thing to do. So we put her in there, and when we did that, and we went with Sheila's mother-in-law, she was a gem. So my husband and Petey and my mom and I went and she was the meanest. It was pretty awful. But then after that, she wasn't nice to me, but she wasn't too bad. She wasn't too bad What what what is then like do you have any explanation for the nature of that kind of Anger from your mom that that kind of meanness I

Never could figure it out. I don't know She was like that with me my whole life So I it, it was like I did something or I reminded her. Who knows? Yeah. And I never saw any of that. I mean, directed at me. I certainly saw it. And Stephen, you never saw any of that coming at you.

Correct? I was told to toughen up as a young child. Well, yeah. Well, that. Well, clearly I am the favorite. Wait a minute. What's emerging here is I think I would see flashes, but Lisa took the full force and brunt of it. And I would see flashes of meanness from mom and she could be incredibly, and I would see flashes of meanness from mom and she could be incredibly, you know, I'll get my own cigarettes and I hope when I do I'm hit by a fucking truck. I mean, there was stuff like that that would just like punch you in the face. Which there was that side of mom,

which to me always seemed like a combination of her own massive trauma from her own mother, and we know how that ended, blamed, blamed for what happened, mom was, and also just growing up, I think, in a tough world of what Jersey City was during that time maybe, and all that, all that combined. And what happened when they came to California and that crazy being ripped out of your life by this man of the cloth, right? It's just tearing you out of your life and taking you across

the country and who knows, none of it justifies her speaking to you that way. None of it. Absolutely none of it. That's on mom. But if you're looking for what could have brought that about, I mean, it's... I don't know. You even, Lisa had the theory that spinal meningitis, that she had that and it actually made her lose some of her editor even more, right?

Right. Right. Well, David's always thought that. He goes, that made a difference too, but she was, in fact, when I was dating and trying to explain my mother to my husband, he heard her talking to me one day and I got off the phone, he's like, I've never heard anyone speak like that to somebody ever in my entire life. Wow. Let alone his wife, right?

Yeah, he was like, what? What? Like, who does that? I'm like, oh, that would be my mom. Which is just... Yeah. You know, oh. The white chocolate macadamia cream cold brew from Starbucks

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we've received so many emails from people who are often sharing their story. And one of the things that we heard a lot from people who had a parent who was, whether it was narcissism or what, I don't know, but is that if there was a sibling, a lot of times there was like a favorite sibling and then, you know, who could do no wrong. And then there was the sibling who just was absolutely trounced on by the parent. And I remember sort of noting that because that wasn't really the case in Danny's family. It wasn't like, you know, even though Danny's brother did maintain a relationship with Richard to the end, Danny, I don't feel like your brother was the golden child and you were persona non grata, but that is very much what I'm hearing

You know in in the Kieran family, you know with you Lisa, unfortunately bearing the brunt of all of this from Maureen Yeah Yeah, but one of the things that I want to just Note is that just is just kind of occurring to me. It's like you guys, you know, you're talking about this this hardened kind of family that genealogy that you came from these the miners and the Jersey City. And yet I really feel like the three of you feel to me like real, you know, warriors of empathy.

That there's a softness to all three of you that I think is remarkable given the hardness that you came from and that your family came from for multiple generations. It's really amazing. Shut up, Danny. Oh, man. See, I didn't buy that, Kieran. It's really amazing. Shut up, Danny. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

No. No. See, I didn't buy that, Kieran. I didn't buy that. Yeah, I know, I know. That's right. No. I think we're all nice, kind people that care about people

and where the heck did that come from? And race families. And we've been married. Like, I'm like, I look back and I go, this is amazing. Like, I should have been married three or four times or not at all, particularly not at all. Maybe my husband thinks that sometimes, but that could be another podcast. But he's likeable, he's so likeable.

Yeah. But he's likeable. He's so likeable. Yes. Yep. But, you know, and we've all been in long-term relationships. Yeah. And that's not always easy at all. Like, our first five years were a nightmare. And they weren't a nightmare because of David. They were a nightmare because of me. And luckily, I have a husband who, I want to say, after I, because I acted like my mother, because that's all I saw. So I acted crazy.

Until one day he just looks at me and he goes, look, I'm not leaving you. I'm never gonna leave you. But you're gonna make your life and our life a whole lot easier if you figure this out. And I was like, of course, I, you know, yelled and screamed. And then I calmed down and thought about it and started working on myself. And I'm like, that was a blessing.

And he's not a, Sheila and Stephen continue, he's not a controlling, manipulative person in any way. You know, going back Danny to what you said, which is a very, I joked it away, I know, but I wanna say, and this applies to you as well, I think when you're taken to hell, like when you're taken to a place where you just are forced to understand what's true in a sense in life Like you just know that hatred just simply doesn't work. It's destroying you and others

It's like a broken system, but you only can learn that in hell. I feel that it's like dad always said He said this right at the end of his life, he said, remember, remember, and you remember he grabbed me, he said, no one wins a war. No one. He would know. So I think we went to our own personal wars or have fought these wars and when you're in that, I think you're tempered or if you let yourself be, when you realize that the truth is the truth in the end and it can,

when life strips you of absolutely everything, that you see clearly what remains. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. That's what I feel. It's like religious people are afraid of hell and spiritual people have been to hell, they say. You know, corny way to say it. But you know what? I feel like that just sort of emerged because we had so much removed from us. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Well, you can go the other way and be bitter in your life. We think we have a lot of choices, but sometimes I think we get down to it and we don't.

I mean, really, suck it up. And I don't mean suck it up and don't do a podcast or don't do therapy or don't heal yourself and work on it. But I mean, this happened. Do you sit around and feel sorry for yourself for the rest of your life? I don't think so. I don't think that serves us. And I think as your children, did everyone tell you how opinionated I am, Danny? Because I'm terrible.

No, it's fantastic. As your children get older, because your dad is a part of who you are, good, bad and ugly, but he doesn't define you. Like our mom and dad don't define us. They are a part of us. But you will see with your kids, because you will not raise them, talk to them, you'll be honest with them, you'll be, I hate this word, don't call me Oprah, authentic with them. That goes a long way. I think it goes a long way.

And I've always said to our kids ago, I may not have been the perfect mother, as we all know, but I'll tell you, I was supportive of them. We were very, David was brought up in an extremely supportive home. And I think because we were not, we're, like, our oldest son wanted to be a Laker. He was the shortest of all of our kids and still is today. But you know what? You go, Justin. I'll bring you water and sandwiches and you can eat. I wasn't going to tell him he wasn't going to do that. You can do whatever you want. Because I was told I could not do anything because I was so stupid.

I mean, literally. I'm like, no, I wouldn't do that. So that's my little two cents there, Danny, with your children. No, I love that, thank you. Lisa, you said something earlier that I just wanna reflect on because it really resonated with me with regard to,

I think we were talking about forgiveness and you were talking about forgiveness. And you, you were talking about how you recognize that your parents did the best that they could, which is something that Danny kind of came to at the end of the last season. But, and you had that, but they are still accountable. They ought, they need to be held accountable for what they did. And I think that that's really interesting to see. They are still accountable. They need to be held accountable for what they did. And I think that that's really interesting and challenging to be able to hold both of those ideas in your head at the same time, because I think a more common tendency is

to go in the extreme direction of one or the other. You know, I think Danny certainly started in like, Richard must be held accountable, and then, you know, kind of drifted in the other direction. But I guess my question is, how have you, how did you get there? How did you get to the point where you seemingly are able to hold both of those ideas simultaneously?

I don't know how I've gotten there. I just feel, I feel like if for me, if I just say they did the best they could it's and leave it at that, this is me. It's almost like saying, Oh, sorry, sorry about that. I did that, sorry. And it means nothing. There's no depth to it. There's no real sorrow. There's no real repentance.

So, for me, it's kind of like I let them off the hook in my mind, but I feel that they are responsible and they need to take some responsibility. But I also, you know, I also know that they were broken people and, and, and I don't know, maybe I'll come, maybe that's not right, but that's where I'm at now. Yeah. Danny, you know, thinking about where you ended up in the last season, what's your, how do you respond to where Lisa is in her story? Well, no, I mean, I think that I, I think I totally agree. I don't, I, um, yeah, I think

I'm in total agreement. I mean, when I said you did the things that he did. So I think it's a very evolved perspective that she's gotten to, frankly, and I think it makes a lot of sense. We've talked a lot about your guys' mom, but a little less about your dad. I'm wondering if we might be able to just sort of switch gears for a second. And I'm just curious what the sisters, Kieran, you know, what you might sort of, I don't know, like what your, I don't know what my question is exactly. Like who, who, to you guys, to each of you, I guess, who, who was your dad to you? You want to go at least? You want me to?

Oh no, she'll let you go. I've been silent so far. She want me to. Oh no, she'll let you go. I've been silent so far. I think growing up I always thought Dad was, he was our father, he wasn't around a lot, so when he was there I felt like he was his hero person to me.

And until that time, until, what were we 12? I was 12 when mom ran away and left and then she came home one day and said, I'm gonna go away and your father will take care of you while I'm gone. And I remember saying, does dad know this? Is he gonna jump on with that plan? And then we called him to say, literally,

mom's leaving, dad, are you able to come help us? And that was on a Friday afternoon, and he said, I'm going on a business trip, and I'll be back on Sundays, can we work it out then? And I think I realized, oh, okay, not very important. It was a big moment that I realized that, oh, maybe he's not the big man I thought he was. But then immediately switched over to survival mode

and tried to figure out what we were gonna do moving forward, but it really made me realize that, oh, he's really not who I thought he was at that young age. I mean, you're supposed to always revere your father. Or I thought I did at the time. So, you know, going forward after that, always with a grain of always remembering that moment. But and he made mistakes along the way and when he came back, it was just a short time. I mean, he came back that weekend, but it's a hard pill to swallow and not, you know, you can't forget that. And so we worked it out and we were close our whole life but he just he wasn't there to take care of us.

He abandoned us when we really needed him. And so ironic that at the end of his life, well towards the end of his life, once I had children, I think mom was already gone, and I was up at the house with my son, who was very little, and I had to give him a bath. And dad came and sat right on the side of the bathtub and started talking to me. And I'm like, what is going on here? Dad never does this. And apologized, said I wasn't the father I should be, I wasn't around enough. And so it was, I think later in life, I mean, as we all get older and there's more wisdom in our heads and we learn things, but he came

back around and I thought, man, it's taken him along. Maybe he knew what he was doing all along, but I guess we can give him the caveat that he did the best he knew how. So, you know, up and down relationships, always close with dad, but always knew that he did the best he knew how. So, you know, up and down relationships, always close with dad, but always knew that he didn't do as well as he should have. It was disappointing, bad decisions. That's what I say. Our parents made bad decisions when it came to their children.

Yeah. And what about you, Lisa? There really isn't much to say. I was never close with my dad, ever. I don't think he had much use for me either, but I think he had more use than my mother. But I didn't have a good relationship with my dad, ever. But I'm glad that Sheila and Stephen did, because I think it tells you that somewhere But somewhere in my dad, he could connect. He just couldn't.

I don't know what I did wrong, but I used to think maybe just because I was born, I have no idea. But I really wasn't much to them. And it's just, it's so interesting. Like I remember when I was, I was probably 42 years old and I was talking to my dad and I told him, oh, I got a job at Wells Fargo as a teller. And he started laughing. He goes, I go, why are you laughing? He goes, do they know how dumb you are?

That you're so bad with numbers, which I am. He was a civil engineer, so another disappointment for him. And I said, well, Dad, yeah, they hired me anyway, and it's a program, and I can count change out. I'm really good at it. I just like, and here, we still had kids at home, but we had kids. Our second child was getting married, and I'm like, I would never, ever say that to my kids. Ever. Ever. I wouldn't even think to say that to my kids.

No. Yeah. So, I just, you know, now that I'm saying this, I think they have no respect for me. Breaking news! McDonald's international menu items are vanishing. McPizza bites missing in Italy. Big Rosti stolen from Germany. Teriyaki chicken sandwich disappears in Japan. An Abysscoth McFlurry blackout in Belgium. Oh, it's just in. We can now confirm the stolen favorites have resurfaced

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I mean, different take with me with that. But they had no respect. I don't know, Sheila and Stephen may have a totally, I mean, different take with me with that, but they had a much better relationship with both of our parents. It was severely limited, though. I mean, just speaking about Dad, I mean, remember Dad could not say, I love you. I mean, Dad never said that. Never, never.

His whole life, you know, and if you got anywhere close to saying it to him, his standard line was, that's a big word. You know, and you would think, not, not really, you know, not really. Not really. But that was... So, I mean, no, I, it was severely limited. And the only way I could get in with dad was through baseball. Yeah. Baseball. I would back in that way. And then we could talk, you know, but I mean,

I think dad was ravaged. I think dad in the end was two wars, one divorce, no therapy is really the truth. I mean, dad was just ravaged, you know, and, and from post trauma to, you know, when you're a combat veteran of two wars, and again, dad's still accountable. They say there's a difference between responsibility and accountability. You know, it's an interesting distinction. Can I just say, Lisa, my heart is breaking for you hearing all of this from both your mom and your dad. I mean, like, it's, there's a long road from not saying I love you to do they know how dumb you are and this lack of respect. But I also have to say that like you are a testament to what you know, your internal

fortitude. Like you came out of this, you helped save your siblings, you've clearly raised a family on your own, you're still married in a, what sounds like a, you know, a healthy evolving marriage with a husband who loves you. That's such a beautiful- What an accomplishment. What? Yeah, exactly. Like I'm both heartbroken and in awe. Yeah. Thank you. Same here, by the way. Same here. I will tell you, I'll take a break here, a little funny story that my boys, when they would call their grandfather and talk to him,

my boys, we always say, I love you. It's the last thing we always say. And so the boys would say, I love you, grandpa. I love you, grandpa. And hang up the phone. And I'd look at them and say, I love you. It's the last thing we always say. And so the boys would say, I love you, grandpa. I love you, grandpa. And hang up the phone. And I'd look at them and say, there's a man in Northridge right now. Sitting there going, I don't know, I don't know what to say. That's amazing.

That's amazing. But I don't understand how DNA quite works, but our son, Trent, loves, he's in grad school now. What, Stephen, you probably, he's learning like how to map out communities and make it more accessible without car, I know there's a name for it and I'm babbling.

Is it like urban planning? Yes. Thank you, Darren. Thank you so very much. Yes. Yes. My pleasure. But he calls me one day, okay, so we're like huge book nerds,

not all of our kids, but Trenton and I, like we love bookstores and the smell of books and old books and we're ridiculous. Like he'll send me pictures. He said, I can hardly wait till you can come up so you can go into the library with me. I'm like, look at you. Like we're ridiculous.

Anyway, he calls me and says, oh, I took at this fascinating book about designing LA in the 30s. And he's telling me all about that. And I said, Trent, my dad would think you are the most wonderful person in the world. Because it was like Stephen saying that about baseball, because my dad could connect with him through that. And I said, I can guarantee you that he knows some of these stories or some of these people, even though they were older. Oh, right. Because my dad worked, our dad worked at Water and Power in downtown LA for years.

And so it was interesting. I said, see, Trent, I don't understand what you're even saying. I don't get it. And that's okay. But he goes, oh, Mom, like, it's so fascinating. I'm like, uh-huh, okay. And but my dad, I keep saying my dad, like, I'm not with you guys, Steven and Sheila, sorry, but my dad, I keep saying my dad, like I'm not with you guys, Steven and Sheila, sorry, but dad would have loved it. Just he would really appreciate Trent and what he's going to school for. He would just love that. Yeah, dad had a story for every street corner in LA.

Yes. Anywhere you went. If it wasn't one of his buildings, he would have a story about this or that. He worked for all these celebrities and he never knew who they were. That was the great thing about dad that was so tempered show business. I remember at the end of his life, dad said he was working for these two guys. They're a couple of English chaps. I said, and he goes, Ridley Sutton? I was working for these two guys, they're a couple of English chaps.

And I said, and he goes, Ridley something? I go, is it Ridley Scott, dad? Oh gosh. Yeah, he goes, they're English, right? I go, yeah, him and his brother. And I go, yeah. Oh my God. And then he said, are they any good?

Yeah, a little bit, dad. Little bit, they're all right. They're showing promise, I think is how I was at this. They're coming on up the ladder. Yeah, but he was just irritated by some of the choices they were making and he didn't have a lot of respect for them. I'm like, yeah, well, through that lens, maybe, but there's this other world they're in that they're doing just fine. That's amazing.

Just fine. That's amazing. Just fine. That's great about Trenton. That's really, that's so true, Lisa. Dad would just light up around LA and before the freeways and what was here and how long it used to take to get from downtown into the valley and you had to take this country road and crazy stuff like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He loved Yeah, he loved LA. He loved it. Hmm. One other question that I had for the three of you is, what ways do you think that your upbringing is still currently at play in your own relationships with each other? Oh. currently at play in your own relationships with each other? Oh, couldn't you have given these questions to us earlier, Danny?

Well, if I had thought of them earlier, then I could have done that. You're softballing us now. There goes my empathy. Does this sound soft to you now, huh? You really struck a chord with Stephen on that soft note. It sure did. Tough enough, yeah. Well, go ahead, Sheila, go ahead.

Well, I think now we're much more open about sharing our stories, and I think we bounce things off each other. Like this is, this is bothering me or this happened to me. What does it feel like to you guys? What is it? Why is that happening? And I think we're much more open about sharing things that happened and talking about it more. I know it's changed for me when we did your whole book,

Stephen, and talked so much about it more. I know it's changed for me when we did your whole book, Stephen, and talked so much about it and went over every single situation. Then it brings up more situations like, Oh, do you remember that? No, that didn't happen. And so it makes it easier now that we can talk about things. Certainly we all bring things from our childhood that we've shared, things that make us feel uncomfortable now or things we don't like to do because of that. But I think we have the support of the three of us that when I'm feeling bad and scared,

that I can call you guys and we'll talk each other through it. So I don't know if five years ago we had that, but I think we have it now. And we've understood it helps to talk about mom and dad and what they went through and what we went through with them and because of them and come through the other side, kind of. But I appreciate having you two to help me get through some of the hard times. So. Agreed.

Yeah, agreed. We share a common, the old joke is we trained at the same academy, so we have a shorthand and we also bear the same, not identical as we said earlier, but we largely the same scars. We struggle with a lot of the same things. Other things, no. I mean, I can have breakfast at night and I'm okay. Sheila goes into a mental institution if she has to. No breakfast for dinner, no. I mean, I can have breakfast at night and I'm okay. Sheila goes into a mental institution if she has to have breakfast. No breakfast for dinner, yeah. No breakfast for dinner. My kids have never ever been served breakfast for dinner in my house.

Well, just let's leave that mysteriously unexplained on the podcast. All right. Just so you know, listeners. Yeah. You know you're out there. Yeah. But I would say that's true, don't you think think Lisa, that we were able to have a shorthand and also, we never really say, oh, it's so weird that I'm thinking this way or feeling that way because weird is unexplained. We have a clear line. We have a clear explanation. I feel when you guys share about how you're feeling and thinking more to the point about things, I completely understand and relate and I almost say, yeah, hold my beer. You think that's crazy.

And I was thinking and feeling this over absolutely, you know, seemingly nothing to other people, but we understand that. Yeah, I agree. And it is interesting how it affects everybody differently. Like Danny, you would have different things that have hit you as opposed to your brother. Right, for sure. Yeah, I get that for sure. So it's just an interesting and I think also just having grace for each other. Like that may not make sense to you. But I get where you're coming from. Like, yeah, yeah. Like Sheila, with

the breakfast, we can do breakfast for dinner. She cannot. I don't think she's weird. I don't What's wrong with you? I don't I might I get it I think that but not you guys no not on your life I am Sheila and I get up in the morning. We have to open the drapes We have to open we have to have it light. Yeah. Oh interesting And I don't know what happened in our past where it was overcast and college football was on the television, but if those two combinations come together with me, I pretty much have to crawl back to bed.

I don't know why, but I am horribly- College football? Yeah, and over, not just college football, and not just overcast, but if it's overcast- The two of them together. The two together, those two come together and I am crawling back to bed in a deep depression. I don't know what happened. Oh my gosh. It's crazy.

Wow. Do you have moments like that, Danny? That things from your past, I mean things in your past that just you can't carry forward. Trigger basically. Trigger, yeah. Yeah, oh for sure. I mean, but in a way, I mean like, for me one of those is like any film or television show that has awkwardness

is a real trigger for me. But I lean into it, like I love it. It's, I can't get enough of it. Nathan for you and that kind of stuff. My brother is the same way. My brother loves prank shows, I think. Oh right, practical jokers. He mentioned that, that's right.

Yeah, he loves them. And I think it's both of us just sort of like, there's something familiar to both of us about that kind of, yeah, about that kind of, the feeling that we get when we watch awkward and tense situations. That's kind of a positive thing. On the negative side, I can't think of anything that I've observed that has triggered Danny in a crippling way, but I do know that Danny, whether it's late night snacking,

or you have biting your nails, you have your various nervous habits. A sense of injustice, well that can be crippling. Oh yes. When there's a powerful entity, like a corporation that is, that I feel helpless and they, and I feel like they are being unfair. That is a very big negative trigger for me. And what will happen is Danny will turn into, temporarily, Richard Jacobs.

Like he, he, he, he ceases to be for a moment. And whether it's, you know, Richard always wrote these angry letters, Danny's written his, a few incredible Yelp reviews. I have, I have. And, or just like, yeah, like, you know, he talked about it in the first season with that evil construction company, like.

Yeah, the contractors. Yes. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yep, that kind of thing. But I will say for me, you know, the process. Yes. Yep. Yep, yep, yep. Yep, that kind of thing. But I will say for me, you know, the process of doing the podcast and just the work has, I can feel it softening the edges a little bit of that. So there is a change that I feel is resonating. You've had people reach out to you, right, Danny? And like you guys get emails and.

Oh my gosh. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's just a, it's, it's an amazing, unbelievable story. That's believable. I get, I'm just saying, cause unbelievable in the sense of, did that really, did he really? But I think, especially in this climate today, our society, people I think are open to,

we need to heal and be better and not be angry all the time about everything. time about everything. Yes. But the only way is to face it head on. And it is not an easy road. It is not an easy road, but I think it's a necessary road personally. And I, and I think it helps people heal to go, Oh, Oh, maybe, you know, we had this and this happen, maybe, maybe that's why I'm... I hate the word too, trigger. But maybe that's why I do this and this and this and I need to kind of figure that out,

whatever that out is. But... Yeah, yeah. The cliche, right? The cliche is the only way out is through. That's how I remember it back in the 80s that John Bradshaw I think said, but the only way out is through. So we've got to go through it, start cleaning the turkey pan. You know that analogy of you got to start cleaning the turkey pan and when you start cleaning the turkey pan at first it looks like, oh my God, this has never looked worse. I wish I'd never started scraping and cleaning the turkey pan, but eventually we had a clean, clean pan. And what a beautiful image.

Only, yeah, only to get dirty again, I suppose, next time you cook turkey. That's right. Exactly. Next time. Well, listen, guys- I think I'm going to make pancakes for dinner tonight. Yeah. I think so. going to make pancakes for dinner tonight. Yeah. That a girl. Don't do it.

Don't do it. And on that note, How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up comes to an end. I just want to say thank you to everyone who's been listening and to let you know that while we work on what's next, Darren and I will continue to be posting updates and videos and all sorts of content on our Patreon. It's how we keep the lights on. So we really appreciate our Patreon supporters. www.patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything

is how you can find us over there. And of course, if you have any stories whatsoever, small or big about my dad, please email us at inorichardjacobs at gmail.com. Thanks so much, everybody. ["Toughen Up!" by The Bachelorette plays in background.] Thanks so much everybody. 33 productions. Story Editing by Lisa Blair and Sheila Stevens. Music Mixing and Mastering by Arlo Sanders. Audio Engineering by Glenn Eastman.

Original Theme Music by Alan Simpson. Original Artwork by Derek Yee. Kitchen Pep Talk by Joyce Kieran. Thanks to Helen, Diane and Steve, Bob and Carla, Art and Joyce, Dave, Sean and the DeTye family. Special thanks to Mom, Dad, Lisa, Sheila, and Joe. For questions, feedback, and of course any stories about Danny's dad, we can be reached at Inorichardjacobs at gmail.com.

If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com forward slash how to destroy everything and of course you can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky as well. How to Destroy Everything Presents Toughen Up is available on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Special thanks to Spotify Studios for the use of their beautiful recording space in downtown Los Angeles.