How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy a Family Text Chain

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren discuss the fallout in Danny's family that has resulted from this podcast. We'll also check in with Sandy about the emotional impact this all has been having on her. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.  If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/DESTROY get on your way to being your best self Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Oh hello, hello, hello. Danny Jacobs, how are you? Doing just goddamn great. I didn't believe that for a second. No you shouldn't. That was like one of your rote... There's a lot of deep sadness in there. Hi everybody. Welcome to our new next interregnum.

For How to Destroy Everything, which is a podcast about my narcissistic father, how he destroyed a family, a community, a marriage, basically everything that he got his hands on. You know what I love? You say that with such joie de vivre. Yeah, yeah. Well you know why, Darren? Because you're here with me, my best friend, helping me make sense of it all. That's what this, that's what we're doing here. Smoothly weaving in the introduction of your co-host. That's right. That's professional podcasting. So, so, um, this is exciting. Yes, it is.

I-I-I have one thing that I want to do before we get into the main thing, which is, um, uh, something you should know about me, Danny, is that I also listen to this podcast. I'm not just a co-host. I'm also a listener. Sure. And, uh, I went back and listened

to our previous interregnum, the one after episode four. And, um, I don't know how you're gonna feel about this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. So in that interregnum, we talked about the story in which your father cried, for what we, as far as we know, is only the second time, the only time that you remember him actually crying.

We talked about him using those emotions as a means of manipulation. And then later in that interregnum, you told a rather remarkable story about you and this construction company. And when your kids got involved, you got quite emotional. And as I was listening, a part of me was like, is Danny possibly using this emotional response as a means of manipulation, just as his father did? Now I don't actually think that that was the case. Well, my mom might.

She does. Never believes your emotional response. Apparently nobody does. Even me. No, but I don't. To be honest, I'm on the record as saying I thought that it was genuine. But it is convenient, isn't it?

It was just fascinating hearing those two things like juxtaposed. Right. I was like, to be, I'm on the record as saying I thought that it was genuine. But it is convenient, isn't it? It was just fascinating, hearing those two things like juxtaposed. Right. I was like, wow. And I'm doing it on a podcast. Like, were there other things going on in terms of like wanting to entertain an audience and wanting to make it interesting?

Yes. No, I mean, I- It's weird. It's weird. It's a little weird. Look, I don't have an answer to it, except to say, look, I don't think that consciously I'm trying to manipulate people.

Is there such thing as a subconscious narcissist? Interesting. Well, I mean, that leads to the question of like, how aware was your father consciously of the manipulation he was doing in the moment? Jesus, I don't know. Or was he just trapped inside of his, you know? If he wasn't aware of it, you're saying that then he believed

in the moment that he was helping some teenager hack into the Department of Defense. Yeah. I guess in a sense, we're all subconscious manipulators. Right now, I'm probably manipulating you without being aware of it in some capacity. Yeah, I think that that's unavoidable to some degree. And all we can do is take it moment by moment

and try to be as authentic as we can, which I think I'm doing. But it is a good reminder as we go through this that like, to not just you and me, but to the audience, that like, hey, there's this ongoing tension here with this podcast of us trying to be as truthful and as vulnerable and as authentic as we can while also wanting

to make this interesting for people. One of the things that we've realized about these interregnums and sort of what we're doing here, maybe kind of even unconsciously with the structure of this podcast is that... Is it manipulating the audience? Are we unconsciously manipulating the audience? But I think that the structure of this show,

where we're going to these like episodes, where we're talking about the past, and then these interregnums is really about toggling back and forth between the present and the past. Because there are these two parallel stories going on that we are that are kind of in conversation with with one another. Absolutely. And that was not something that we realized going into this. No. When we started this podcast, we thought we were going to be telling a story, not entirely, but primarily in the past.

Yes. And the amount of present day impact that the story is having is, I think you're right, why we need to have these interregnums because it's as important as everything that happened in the past. Frankly, more so because it's alive, it's happening now. Right. And that brings us to the main topic of today's podcast. Yes. Actually, before we get to it, I do want to just do a little quick shout out, actually a plea for help, because as you guys hopefully remember from the first episode,

we talked about how my mom joined this support group that was created solely for the purpose of helping people who had been sued by my father. And we are desperately looking still for people in that support group. Yes. People that are alive. We have been, we still haven't been able to... We have found some people, but they have sadly passed on, and we would love to speak with anyone who was a part of that support group or knows anything about it. I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com. And by the way, if you don't know what we're talking about here, please go back to the

first episode. This show is meant to be listened to chronologically. So go back to that first episode and listen to us talk about that support group, because that's, you know, hopefully going to come into play if we can ever, ever find someone who's alive that was a part of it. Yes, indeed. So anyway, let's get on with the interregnum. Let's.

We're going to have a main topic and then afterwards we're going to bring your mom, Sandy Jacobs, back in to talk about last week's episode, episode five, and get her thoughts, which I'm sure will be entirely positive. So today's topic is indeed about the present day impact that this podcast is having, has been having for quite a while now on your family.

Some of our long time listeners may recall there was an update that we put on the feed a while back about this very topic. We removed it when we relaunched, but what happened was because of this podcast, Danny has had a falling out with a member of his family who is very upset about the existence of the podcast. And while we were in the studio recording one day, a series of texts came in. We just happened to be recording as this was happening and left the microphone on while Danny was reacting in real time to this series of upsetting texts

about this family drama. So before we get into it, why don't we just drop you in on that recording session and we'll talk after. So listeners, listeners, literally as we sat down to do this, a new text has arrived. Yes, yes. But this one, so I have this ongoing thread with my whole family, an ongoing text thread. So this one is to everybody. This may be something that we need to revisit down the line. Yeah, I think so. God, I'm so fucking pissed off.

I'm pissed off, I'm just pissed off that it's like, that even now, everybody in my family is like worried about everybody else. I'm the one that got attacked here. And then everyone's like, oh, can you just be careful? That it's upsetting this other person. Like, what? What are you fucking talking about's upsetting this other person like what?

What are you fucking talking about like that other person is an adult everyone's an adult on this thread? That's what this is about it's stressing out. So can you please redirect this? I was like I said stop trying to protect someone else. What about me fuck that? I said I have no intention of responding again, but I felt the need to respond This is very painful to me. Maybe try having some empathy for me. Jesus. Like, I just feel like everybody is like suddenly worried about I'm like, what what the fuck, man? I was the one that would that have that it just was just attacked by this person. Yeah, irrespective of nothing. Yes, out of the blue, out of the fucking blue. And nobody nobody is concerned about me. This is exactly what my childhood was, dude. This is exactly what it was. It was like everybody fucking concerned about me. This is exactly what my childhood was, dude. This is exactly what it was. It was like everybody fucking concerned about everyone because I always somehow projected

a sense that I was okay. Right. That's what it was. That was how I survived. Right. And I, you were the one who dictated you'll go with your mom, with your dad. I never had any problems at school. Other people involved had problems. I just, I was able to kind of make it through. But you were just holding it all. Yeah. I was holding it all, and nobody gets that, even now. And they still are asking me to hold it all. Right. And it just is... Well, it's not fair.

It's not fair that you should have to hold it all for everybody else. Everybody else's feelings count, too, but so do yours. Yes, yes. God damn it. You know, Danny, I came across this quote Feelings count too, but so do yours. Yes, yes. God damn it. You know, Danny, I came across this quote online that I wanted to share with you. Trauma runs through families

until someone is brave enough to feel it. And I felt like that was really kind of appropriate in what's happening here. I mean, what are your thoughts upon hearing that? You know, one of the things that I've been feeling, I've started to look at the behavior of my family in different ways. Like, I've become much more aware of the way

that the trauma of my father has infiltrated every aspect, every nook and cranny of my family. It's all been infected by my dad. Like, that quote that you said is so dead on. It feels like my whole family has been swimming in this trauma and we are just so used to the water that we don't realize it anymore. And suddenly I'm becoming aware of it

in a way that feels very new and is scary. And it's not just scary for me, I think it's also that awareness is causing fear in some of my family members too. So I think that feels exactly right. Okay, so Danny, what's it like to hear that? Wow, I mean, first of all, you can really hear the emotion there.

Yes. It's on the surface. Genuine, dare I say not manipulative emotion. Yeah, unlike the rest of this podcast. That moment, at least we can say, is genuine. And now a word from our sponsor. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Darren, I figured out my Halloween costume this year.

Oh, I've been dying to know what it is. I know you've been worried, you've been thinking about it. Guess what? I'm going as Danny Jacobs. I don't understand. No costume, no mask, no nothing. Full on, just me, in my full glory. So that's, your kids are gonna be in costume,

and you're gonna just be yourself. Yeah. That sounds like a fantastic idea. You know why? Why? I think it's a great idea because what you've done is you've revealed the true you. Yep, yep, exactly.

Because I was thinking about how therapy, my experience in therapy, you know, you get to explore the real you or the real me. And I found it to be so empowering. Same. I mean, it's like it has changed my decision-making tree. For me, once I've, as I've gone through therapy now for years, I find it harder to not be my authentic self. That's why I love your costume idea so much. Yep. Because you do, who wants to pretend after you've been through therapy? Exactly. You want to be authentically you. You know what, you

should go as Danny Jacobs also. But that would be a mask. I think you're missing the whole point. Oh yeah, you're right. I missed the whole point. I should be me. You should be you. You know, if you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. One of the great things about it is it's completely online. So that's incredibly convenient, it's flexible, and it's suited to whatever your schedule limitations might be. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire that matches you with a licensed therapist, and you can also switch therapists anytime at no additional charge. Incredible.

So, take off the mask with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash destroy today to get 10% off of your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash destroy. Okay yeah so what I think we need to do here is kind of go all the way back to the beginning and tell the whole story. Let's do it. All right. So this family member, I feel like I want to give her a name. OK.

Let's say Karen. Oh, can't imagine why you'd choose that name. Of all the names. So Karen grew up with my dad. And when I was growing up, the thing that I think it's really important to understand about her and my relationship to her is that she was a very valuable, important presence in my life.

Oh, how so? Well, you know, I was obviously getting it from my dad, meaning he would be telling me all throughout my life that I was a narcissist, that I was selfish, you know, all these things of projection. And to have this family member, to have Karen there, who was able to be like, no, no, no, no, he's crazy. He's the narcissist. This is him. Believe me, I know I grew up with him.

Was she in St. Louis your whole childhood? No, she moved there when I was like nine, I want to say. Okay, so effectively, I mean, like, so in terms of like, as you were coming of age and starting to come into terms with your dad, she was someone who could confirm what your suspicions were. My ability to have a relationship with her and a healthier relationship with her,

in a way it was like proving to myself that like I could have a relationship with my dad. And in a way, she was like a proxy for my dad. I was like, oh, this is a healthy version of what it would be like if I had a relationship with my dad. I was like, oh, this is a healthy version of what it would be like if I had a relationship with my dad. It was a stand-in. And so it was like, it was very important

as a sort of a proof of concept that I could have that kind of healthy relationship. Does that make sense? Well, not just a proof of concept, I feel like you were saying that she was filling a void for you. Yeah, oh yeah. That there was something that you kind of needed as a kid,

you know, if she's in the family. Yeah, same generation. And by the way, like the other thing about her was like, because I was sort of like, I very much saw my dad for who he was. Like, her and I sort of came about the whole thing from the same perspective, because she was, she did not have a good relationship with my dad at all. And because I could, I wasn wasn't really defending him a lot. We were allies.

We were allies, right? Oh, interesting. And that was, and so in her mind, when I was growing up, I was like the greatest thing since sliced bread, right? Oh wow. Like I was, I could do no wrong. So she was deluded back then. Yeah, that's exactly right.

In some ways, what I'm hearing is that she probably was praising you a lot. Maybe you liked that too. Oh, I loved it. Of course. Who doesn't like that? It's great.

OK, so that's the precursor to this. That's the background information I feel like you need to know. So then when we were decided to make this podcast, I was very worried about what she would say about it. We're putting a lot of personal stuff out there. Yeah, so before we even put the episode, the first episode up, I sent it to her

and she listened to it. And we had a really nice conversation that was very relieving to me. Yes, I remember you told me that she said that she thought that this podcast was going to help people. Yeah, yeah, she did. She thought it was gonna help people. Now, she also said, I don't wanna have anything to do with this podcast was going to help people. Yeah, yeah, she did. She thought it was going to help people.

Now, she also said, I don't want to have anything to do with this podcast, which I totally get, you know what I mean? Like this- And we were in honor. Yeah, we're not gonna interview her. We're telling my story here. We're not trying to tell anybody else's story

if they don't want, I understand there's a lot of feelings about it being public and all that stuff. So I totally got that. And we had that conversation and I left it and being like, all right, this is gonna be okay. Then you and I were asked to do an interview for the St. Louis Jewish Light. We sure were, the paper of record. The paper of record.

You know, look, God bless the St. Louis Jewish Light, you know what I mean? But I think that they would even admit that they're not, you know, a huge publication. Listen, though, for a certain sector of Jews in West St. Louis County, it's a, you know. It's a thing. A lot of people had it when we were going out.

But anyway, I say this to say that like, they wanted to do an interview with us where it was an article, basically, not even just about the podcast, but about our careers in general. Right. And so we did this interview. So then, Karen gets a call from a friend of

hers who I guess saw this article and was like, hey, I saw this article about you and your family and about Richard. And Karen went apoplectic. I mean, she got filled with a kind of rage that is hard to describe. And did she call you? She did call me. And she was super angry. I couldn't get a word in edgewise. And I was trying to say, she was like, basically, her main grievance was, how could you not use a fake name? Now people know that I am connected to Richard Jacobs

and connected to the family. I remember being very confused about this because as you indicated earlier, she had listened to the episode, the podcast episode. She sure did. The episode is called Meet Richard Jacobs is the pilot episode. So I was very confused and I tried to say,

like, hey, hey, you heard it. Everything was fine. You said it was gonna help people. And she like, it was as, she was seeing so much red. She couldn't even recognize that she had heard the podcast at any point. She, she, she didn't even, she said something about like, I have, you know, Oh, I didn't, I didn't hear it or something like that. And I'm like, I'm like, I don't, I didn't know how to even deal with that.

Yeah. You, we talked about it. We had a conversation. You heard the episode. Right. Okay. What did you make of that in the moment, by the way? It was very confusing and very hurtful.

And it was hard. Then we started having a text exchange, okay? And she said some things that were love, is what she said. Yes, I remember that. And that really cut deep. Well, yeah. I mean, when you're engaged in an argument with someone and they, in all seriousness, tell you that you cannot love someone else. And as you said earlier, this is someone who you do feel a lot of love for.

Yeah, but even at the time that she texted me that, I was like, I texted her as like, I think you're saying some things you're going to regret. Why don't we just like put the kibosh on this until a later time when we're all calm down. And she was just like, you've ruined our relationship. And like, it was very clearly a line in the sand for her. And at the time, I was like, even though she had said that, that you were incapable of feeling real love, I was still thinking, oh, this is repairable. I think we can come back from this. Well, because you felt like, probably I'm guessing, that she was at a sort of heightened

state of emotion after this and that it could calm down. Right. Which I think makes sense. Yeah. OK, so then the next thing that... So then we had this sort of blow up and it was confusing and weird.

And then the next thing that happens is, so I have this family text chain, OK? And it's my whole family and we have a text chain. Anyway, apropos of nothing, she just sends a text to the entire family about how I'm, like, because of the podcast, I'm ruining my grandparents' reputation in the community. And which was another really hurtful thing for me to hear

because my grandparents meant so much to me. I mean, I would not have survived without them. And this, by the way, is what, the clip we listened to earlier, this is what had happened right up to that. That brings us up until that moment, which is like me getting really upset that she's attacked me out of nowhere,

and then I felt like I wasn't being properly defended by anybody, and it was just about the awkwardness of the whole situation for the other people and wanting to protect the other people on the thread. Yeah, like what were people, did anyone respond to this in the thread? No, no one. I think I did. But no one, but people would respond to me directly saying like, hey, maybe you take this off the thread, right? And I'm like, how about we just deal with the fact that somebody just attacked me and maybe you could say something about that. Yeah, anyway, you can still, I still have feelings about it.

But I will say that one of the good things about it is with a couple of my family members, it did sort of open up the floodgates a little in terms of like starting our conversation that we can have. Okay, that's good. Yeah, so that's what happened there. All right, so then moving forward, like every Sunday we have a Zoom kind of meeting. It's not a meeting, it's a family. It's a Zoom family thing.

A family Zoom? A family. Is that what you're trying to say? By flipping the words, you threw yourself off completely. You guys have a family Zoom on Sunday nights. It's a family Zoom. Everybody gets together. Every Sunday everybody gets together.

And like what I noticed was, so I stopped talking to Karen, Karen stopped talking to me. But you guys were still both on the Zoom? We would still be on these Zooms every Sunday. Which would be super awkward for me at least. Like I would feel tension the moment I came on until the moment I came off.

And by the way, over the course of weeks and two months, like we never exchanged another direct sentence to each other over the Zooms. It's always me talking to someone else, her talking to someone else, like never anything directly. I'm cringing just thinking about it. Now in these family Zooms, is the podcast coming up at all? No, it's not coming up at all.

No one's asking about it in the slightest. And that's building, that's making me feel weird too, because I'm going through this experience of making this thing, which is like a huge thing in my life. Like I've never experienced anything like that. And I'm starting to feel more distanced from my family because nobody's talking about it and they, no one was even reaching out to me individually. Right. You mean about the podcast?

Yeah, about the podcast. No one was talking about it. Wow. So there's this, this thing is happening. individually, right? You mean about the podcast? Yeah, about the podcast. No one was talking about it at all. Wow, so this thing is happening, this like, all this is unfolding in your life and you're not able to talk about it to anyone in your family. And now a word from our sponsor.

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And the thing about that, right? And the thing about HelloFresh meal is that there's so many like little nuance details about it. It comes with pickled cucumbers and sriracha mayo. I would never buy any of those things. Or like a pinch of this or a pinch of that. When I cook at home on my own, I make pasta or sandwich. You know, general sandwich. Just sandwich. And here's the thing, everybody. So Green Chef is now actually owned by HelloFresh. And so they have even wider array of meal plans to choose from.

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just by going to hellofresh.com slash free destroy. HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. I have to say one thought I'm having hearing all of this is I'm empathizing a bit with your family, the rest of your family here, because like obviously they want to have a relationship with you and they also want to have a relationship with Karen. And I relate a little bit to be honest because like I feel like I am someone who will accommodate other people's needs often in order to maintain a relationship with them, even if that means, you know,

submerging my own desire to talk about something uncomfortable. And I feel like I can sort of see your family, they want to accommodate Karen's needs, they want to accommodate yours. Well, and I think another complicating factor was like, like when I brought up, like I brought something up on our text chain about, this is like months ago, about the podcast, because I was feeling more and more like angry that no one was talking about it, that I wasn't talking about it. So I was like, I'm just going to, I think we had some article coming about it,

out about it, that I wasn't talking about it. So I was like, I'm just gonna... I think we had some article coming out about it or something. And I... months ago, I split the family text chain. So like, I have one without Karen on it that I use, and then one that Karen is on that everybody uses. And I purposely posted a text with a link to one of our interviews to the one that everybody uses. Okay. And I had a family member call me and be like, hey, did you do that like just to rile things up

so that you could have something to talk about on your podcast? Oh, oh wow. Yeah. And that, well, that pissed me off. But I also... But actually, did you? I mean, subconsciously, who's to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back to the manipulation thing again. Yeah, exactly. I don't believe so, is what I'll say. But like, look, I get it.

I get that. And it just, but the reason I bring it up is because it just speaks to the really complex set of dynamics that are at play here. Yeah. I mean, I also, back to this sort of empathy thing that I was talking about, like, to an extent, if I put myself in Karen's shoes, I also have some empathy for her here. Not to the point where she's telling you that you are incapable of love, but I'm just thinking about her. You know, she grew up with Richard, and this podcast, even though she listened to it,

maybe something about hearing this from her friend in the Jewish light, it like reawoke something in her. That put her in a fugue state, which I do have empathy for. Oh, I think that what happened was that all the unprocessed shame and guilt that she felt about being in the same family as my dad came flooding back to her. And she was so mad and so rageful about the feeling that she was having,

that she was like, who did this to me? Who brought me this feeling? And instead of saying, it's Richard and it's stuff that I haven't dealt with, it's Danny. And Danny did this. He brought this about. it's Richard and it's stuff that I haven't dealt with. It's Danny. And Danny did this. He brought this about. And so to me, I sort of, I think,

I sort of became a proxy for my dad. Like all the anger and rage that she felt to my dad just started being poured into me. She thought she was done with it and now it's back. You know, and yet you, this is what's interesting to me about you and what's different about you than me, is that you put that article in the text chain with everybody. Like, you are someone, I think there's some reason

that I've always been slightly, one of the reasons I've been drawn to you and our friendship is that I would never have done that. I would never have rocked the boat. I would have just been like, I would have had the separate text thread, I would totally accommodate her. Well, and maybe one of the reasons why I'm have just been like, I would have had the separate texts throughout the natural... I would totally accommodate her. Well, and maybe one of the reasons why I'm joining you as a friendship

is because there are times when I shouldn't. And... We balance each other. We bring balance to the force. I mean, you know, but, you know, the latter half of this connects to more to my children. Basically, my son's birthday was coming up, and I just, I texted her, Karen, to say, hey, if you want to wish my son a happy birthday, like, let me know when's a

good time and I'll pass on the phone and she didn't respond. And apparently, what she did do was she texted my wife and said, like, I will I'm going to cease communications with Danny, but I would like to, you know, I can call you and you can hand the phone to your son. So she's not even willing to engage with you at all. And I'm like, dude, listen, man, I am trying to be the adult in the room here. I'm trying to just, I'm not saying

we have to have a conversation, but just like, I'll, you know, and my wife doesn't want to get in the middle of this either. Like, she doesn't want to be a part of this. Understandably. So she's not, she doesn't respond to Karen. So I try one more time and I said, and by the way to my wife, Karen was like, I'm surprised I even have to explain this to you.

It was some snarky kind of thing. And so I tried one more time and she didn't reply. And then she didn't wish my son a happy birthday. And I'm like, man, that's a real bummer. So then the last bit here is we were gonna head to St. Louis. And I was just again like, well, if my children, I feel like I felt responsibility to try to allow my children to have an opportunity to see her.

You know, I'm trying to do what I feel like my dad wouldn't have done. Like, that's partly what's driving me with this stuff. Just as a quick sidebar, I always think that's so interesting. We talked about this in the past, I know, but that, like, you're always trying to think of what your dad would have done and then just zag in the opposite direction. Yes, exactly. If something reeks to me of my dad, I'm like, oh, that's my one North Star.

I was gonna say, what's the opposite of a North Star? Yeah, exactly. Just like, I guess it's like blindly trying to find your way without the benefit of light from the sky. Right. So I texted her and I said, hey, here's the dates, we're coming to St. Louis, like if you wanna see the kids,

I'm sure they'd love to see you. So she replied, I'm gonna just read directly here. She said, hey, here's the dates. We're coming to St. Louis. Like if you want to see the kids, I'm sure they'd love to see you. So she replied, I'm going to be, I'm going to just read directly here. She said, going forward, I will communicate with your wife or your kids. Desist in communicating with me. Okay.

And so I just said one more time, I said, if you'd like to see the children in June, you'll have to let me know. They'll be sorry to miss you. I just wanted her to understand that like that wasn't going to happen because, and I didn't say this, I didn't say that my wife didn't want to be in the middle of this. But I just made her to understand that like, that wasn't gonna happen because, and I didn't say this, I didn't say that my wife didn't wanna be

in the middle of this. But I just made it clear, I wanted to make sure she knew that like the way that this was gonna happen was gonna be through me. So then she replies, you are depriving them of their relationship with me. You should know the effects of using Richard Jacobs' name in your podcast or film.

No one should have to tell anybody who is sensitive to their family to use a fictitious name, the end, in all caps. Oh, wow. Okay, so this really pissed me off. You should know the effects of Richard, okay. So first of all, you were depriving them of their relationship with me. I'm literally trying to do the opposite right now.

Right, right, right. Like everything I'm doing is not in that way. Then you should know the effects of using Richard Jacobs' name in your pinecaster film. Okay, there's a couple ways you could take that. I took it as sort of like a threat, like see, this is what you get. Like these are the effects, this is what you get for using it. You mean like she's punishing you?

Yeah. Did you feel like you took it in a different way? I didn't... I did take it in a different way? I didn't, I did take it in a different way. I took it in the way that like, she wants you to understand how painful it is for her. Like you should know the effects of using this. Okay, I see, that makes sense. But I also can see that, texting is hard guys. It is, it's tough.

Everybody out there, texting is a challenge, tone is hard. Although I'll say this, she ended with the end all capital. Okay, that's pretty definitive. And by the way, that's something that my dad would do all the time. He would vomit, bile at you, and then end the conversation. Yes. As if like, all you have to do is just take it in

and move on, dude, but I couldn't do that. I can see how you would have had your interpretation given the end all caps period. Yes. So here's what I wrote. No, I'm not depriving them of anything. You are. I'm offering you a chance to see them when we're in town. All you have to do is put your own hurt aside and you can see them. It's all about you and what you choose to do.

And per the podcast, once again, you listen to the podcast. You heard my dad's name in it, you said nothing about it. Only when one of your friends called you after seeing the article in the Jewish light were you triggered. Your pain was triggered, I get that. But you are totally misguided about where

you are placing the destination of your rage. It is not me you are mad about, it's my dad. It's tragic that you can't see that you are using me as a proxy for my dad. You are sad to me, I feel sorry for you. And the fact that you are now using my children as pawns in your own emotional turmoil, it is exactly what my dad did. You are sick and I feel sorry for you.

Here it is. You will die alone. Wait, what? You wrote that? I did. I did. You will die alone? I did. Listen, man. Okay. Let me just say a few things. I recognize that it was, that that's too far. I don't feel like you should ever say that to anyone.

I was in a similar way that Karen was triggered by all this. Like I was triggered by this experience, the communication that I was having with her. It was feeling like I was dealing with my dad again. Let me just say, I was having that thought sort of mid-text, where I was like, oh, Danny's in a fugue state himself here. In a way, yeah, and you're right, totally. I was, I was a little out of control.

And I, do I regret it? Yes, I wish I hadn't said it. Wait, so real quick, did she respond to that? No, that was the end of our communication. And by the way, I also, we went to St. Louis, we didn't see her. And I also made the decision, because my wife was like, at some point, why are you trying so hard? And I think the answer, hopefully, is clear,

based on how I started this story talking about my childhood. But I decided after this, I was like, okay, this is done. I'm not gonna try anymore. I'm not going to try for my kids to have a relationship with her. I'm not gonna reach out. It's done. Hang on, I'm sorry. I'm still stuck on, you will die alone.

I kind of, dude, I kind of can't believe that you said that to her. I'm with you most of the time. And I do know that there are times when you kind of lose it a little bit. And I guess that's what happened here. I mean, look, a chunk of this has to do with this fact that, like, she is not having a relationship with my children because of this. It's partly about my children.

It's about being, that my protecting instinct jumps in too. Like, that's all tied in with this anger also. Yeah. I mean, look, you guys now have each said something really horrible to each other. It's again, the fricking concentric circles of pain stemming from Richard.

Let me ask you this. Would you have ever said something like that to your dad? Oh yeah. Did you say something like that? Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. So it's like, what you're right about is that like, you and Karen are replaying.

Yeah. We're both, we're both replaying. Yes. Now I don't know if my dad, how am I, if I'm doing the action that my dad would do to her, but it probably feels that way. It probably does.

The emotional violence of it. Yeah. To her, you are Richard. To you, she is Richard. And you guys are both saying horrible things to each other. Yeah, yeah. And now you're saying the relationship is over you. You're not going to try anymore. That's what you were saying earlier, right? When I was still processing

what you texted. Exactly. Are you sure about that? Is that a good idea to say? I mean, maybe that are you know how like when she texted you and was all upset and you were like, I don't think this is really the end. Yeah. Are you are you not still just really upset and maybe this is the end? Here's what I'll say. Here's what I the end. Yeah. Are you not still just really upset and maybe this isn't the end? I mean, look, here's what I'll say. Here's what I'll say. Okay, I wanna think about it. When you were talking about how we were each sort of like,

in my mind, she is me. Or in my mind, she is me. In my mind, she is- You are an idiot, Danny. Good Lord. She is, it's a lot of she's and he's. In my mind, she is my dad in this situation. I'm like, okay, I can see, to give a benefit of the doubt,

that like, I get upset because I'm saying, oh, she's misguidingly putting her anger on me that she'd be focused on my dad. And how can I say that if I don't recognize the fact that I'm kind of doing the same thing to her? Calling the kettle black, exactly. Exactly, and so I can, I guess if I don't recognize the fact that I'm kind of doing the same thing to her? Calling the kettle black, exactly. Exactly.

And so I guess when I think about it that way, I can see a world where I'm like, yeah, all right, maybe there's a way that I could, at the very least, at some point in the future, send another message saying, hey, I just want to apologize for that. That was over the line and I didn't mean it. I think, let me just say that. I have one more thing to say, but go ahead. I think that's not only a good idea, but I think it's important because I just,

I don't think that you can have the last thing that you say to Karen be, you will die alone. She's not your dad. Right, yeah. But okay, the other thing that I want to say though, so after this conversation, I feel like, all right, that's something that I can do and will do, but not now. Like I am feeling anger right now.

Yes. And I grew up essentially not able to express that emotion because I was holding it all in as a way And I grew up essentially not able to express that emotion because I was holding it all in as a way of helping the other people that I was surrounded by to survive what we went through. And I want to give my anger and rage its time in the spotlight. And so I don't wanna short circuit that in a way.

I wanna let myself feel that and feel that and make, until I feel like, okay, I can sort of move past that. Does that make sense? Yes, yes. I think that that is also probably a smart idea because if you were to engage with her now when you're still feeling anger,

it probably wouldn't go well. If she replied, which she very well might not, yes, I would be worried that it would quickly devolve into a thing because it's too soon. Yeah. You know, you mentioned a minute ago that you want to put your anger in the spotlight. Do you think there's something to the idea that this podcast is, in and of itself, like, I don't know if this makes sense, but like, almost an apology, or an explanation, or you reconciling with that anger and the guilt for Karen, for your children, for everyone.

Well, I think that's really interesting. That feels right. But there's one person that you didn't mention, which is my childhood self, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, interesting. Like, I think that that's what this whole podcast is, in a way. It's this big apology letter to my mom, to myself as a kid, to myself now, to my children, to myself as a kid,

to myself now, to my children, to Karen, to everybody for this horrific, crazy thing. It's a letter to that. I would like to call it a love letter. I think in its best form that's what it is. Which also makes me feel like in that spirit, that I should say something to Karen again. You know what I mean?

To make sure that the love is the thing that's driving it. Yes, and not the rage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, on that note, speaking of love, I'd like to talk to your mom on that note, speaking of love, I'd like to talk to your mom, Sandy Jacobs, whom I love deeply and truly. And I'd like to hear her thoughts on episode five.

Let's bring her in. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. Nice to talk to you. So we you have you've recently listened to episode five, right? Right. So, what did you think? I think good, it was good. There was a couple of things I thought about. Do you have notes? She's checking her notes.

Yes, I'm checking my notes. Okay, good. Okay, so when you talked about, we talked about your crying in that one episode. Yeah. And then I thought that it was not, I thought you were acting. Yeah, after episode three, yeah.

Yeah, I felt like that realization has helped me decide to go to do deeper counseling. Really? Wow. Yeah, I feel like, I talked to my counselor about it and, yeah, I feel like I talked to my counselor about it and I said, I feel like I don't have, like I'm blocking out my emotions. And then I talked about this incident, you know, I just didn't believe that you would, you know,

I thought you were acting because I didn't believe anybody like you or me, you know, would get upset about that, you know, about anything. Wow. Wow. That's a big deal. It's helped me. Yeah, it has helped me. Wow, Mom. That's really amazing. So you're saying that we had that conversation in which you said, oh, I don't understand why you're crying. And then, or you understood, but you didn't believe it. And then you started, because I think you and I had a quick conversation

at some point where you said something about how like you realizing that you're feeling stuck. Stuck is the word that you used with me. Yeah, well, I feel like my whole, I don't have, yeah, I don't have feelings, strong feelings. I kind of block it out. In general or just about? In general.

In general. Interesting. Yeah. That is, you know, that's interesting that you say that because it's kind of, that's resonating with me because I don't see a lot of strong emotions from you in like, not just like sadness, but just like a bunch of like strong emotions in a bunch of different directions.

You know what I mean? Right. In fact, well, I don't know if you're supposed to talk about your, you know, your counseling appointment, but so I got actually I got a little mad. Yeah. And then she said, did you realize you were getting mad? And, and I really did feel angry, which I don't normally feel I kind of block it out. What did you what were you getting mad about? I got very angry at Sylvia.

My grandma, my dad's mom. Yeah. Tell me why. Because we were talking about the Bar Mitzvah, you know, and how I felt. Yeah, like I had made a deal with Sid that Richard would have a party and then I would have a luncheon at my house. Right. And Sylvia said to me that she and Richard were not coming. I mean, she and my brother- Said they were not gonna come to your lunch. Yeah, yeah, they're not coming. And so I was like really mad about that.

She admitted in counseling that she was never gonna come to my house. She was never, she never wanted to have a part for me to take part in the bar misfa stuff. And that it was like really hurtful. That's interesting. Yeah. And so I, yeah.

And that, and you're saying that you had buried these feelings of anger about that for decades. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, right. So it's, so the first thing I had did feel it wasn't sad, but it was angry. Okay. I think that's good. I think that it wasn't sad, but it was angry. Okay.

I think that's good. I think that's healthy. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. I have to say, like, when we started this podcast, I thought, oh, you know, there's obviously a chance that I, you know, that this might sort of change me in some significant way. I might go through something.

I did not have on my bingo card, honestly, that there would be an arc for you. Yeah. That it would, and I'm so pleased that it is affecting you in this way. Yeah. Thank you, Dani. Yeah. I'm really proud of you. Yeah. Aw, thanks. I think that's so, you know, because also it's like, I think about this with you a lot

where it's like, one of the things that I get so impressed by with you is no matter what, you know, you are, you are someone that is open to criticism, you are open to change, you have been your whole life. And a lot of people as they get older, they get more stuck in their ways and are stuck in their perspective. And you don't seem to do that. And I think that's really an impressive trait. It's definitely an admirable quality, Sandra. Thank you. Yeah, I guess I don't really notice that. I mean, I didn't do it on purpose.

Yeah. I guess. Yeah. Yeah. One other thing that I wanted to bring up, just because it's a continuation of something that we talked about in our... Our last interregnum? Was it the last interregnum? Yes.

Or was it after three? I don't know what you're referring to, Danny, so I don't know... Okay. In a previous interregnum, we talked about, after Darren went back to our old house, you were talking about how like... That would have been the interregnum three that you were talking about. Yeah. So you were talking about how like the neighbors, you know, weren't kind to you, you felt like they snubbed

you. Do you remember talking about that? Yes. Yeah. Okay. The only thing I want to say is we got a message on Instagram from one of the neighbors, and I'd like to read it to you. Okay.

It says, you guys are doing an amazing job on this podcast. I know my mom and I, and I'm sure all the neighbors, would love to see your mom again. That part of the conversation was sad to me. I hope she knows of the support and love for her. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. I mean, see, I'm not going to... So do you think I should go over there?

Well, I told them that I would let you know, and I said, maybe we can plan another reunion. And they said, absolutely. OK, let's do it. Yeah, so, you know, look, if we do this, maybe we'll, I mean, I would love to, I think it would be awesome to participate in it. Yes, I mean, I think ideally we would all be there, and we could have like, you know, another party, basically,

where it's not just me, but it's you guys are there. OK. Well, how does that, so I'm curious though. You seem excited about that. And surprised. Yeah, can you talk about that? I am surprised. I am happy.

Because I thought later about what you said and I thought, you know, like I shouldn't be like that. You know, they were just protecting themselves really back then when they wouldn't really talk to me. The only people who talked to me were- And not from you, but from Richard. They were talking to you. From Richard, yes.

But it felt like it was from me too. They couldn't distinguish between me and him. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe it's nice to know that, so there's a, what I love about all the things we're talking about, it's about repair, right? There's like these open wounds that have been festering for decades

in a lot of different ways as a result of our relationship with my dad and your ex-husband. And it feels good that some of these have, there's some hope of some repair. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it really does. Well, this is also upbeat. I like this. Look at this progress all around. Mom, was episode five too long? No. Okay, great. Progress on that too.

We nailed the length. God, this is good. Yeah. And is there anything you want to say just to all the people that have been listening? I just want to thank you for your support. I really never thought that I would have support through this. Oh, yeah. You know, that makes me just think real quickly, Mom, like you've been going in a lot of ways, you've been suffering alone for so long. Yeah, right. That's true. I didn't people didn't really want to hear about it. Yeah. Like early on, they said I shouldn't.

I should stop talking about it because people would think I was crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So I stopped talking about it. Yeah. Well, now broadcasting it loudly for all to hear. Right, yeah. All right. Thank you, Sandy. Thank you. I always enjoy chatting with your mom, Sandy Jacobs. It's a real treat. Well, anyway, before we end this week's Interregnum,

Dani, I feel obliged to check in with you. We're kind of at an interesting point here, where we're several episodes in, in terms of the making of this thing. Where's your head at? Well, you know, it's been interesting. I feel like, you know, if you were to say, like, has this been a positive experience?

Has this been a positive experience? I'd say the answer is yes, okay? I think that I've started to connect to my emotions about things that happened in my childhood in a more emotionally... Emotional? ...tangible way. The kind of disconnect that I had for a lot of my life

about a lot of this stuff is I can feel it starting to Kind of fade away, which is amazing. Yeah at the same time. I was thinking recently About how you know because that's something that happens say through therapy, right? But one of the weird things about this is that in therapy your progress really kind of happens in fits and starts Yes is that in therapy, your progress really kind of happens in fits and starts and also kind of happens when it happens. And it's like you might have a revelation in therapy, and then three years go by, and you talk about stuff, you're still doing it, and then maybe something else.

But in this process, it's like, oh, I just had a revelation about, you know, this terrible thing that happened when I was five, and then now before I can take a revelation about, you know, this terrible thing that happened when I was five. And then now, before I can take a breath, I'm like, all right, well, next week we got to get it at eight and nine, when I'm eight and nine. And then, oh, we got five days. And right now it's accelerated and you and you, we're in the studio, like, all the time, every week. And it's just, there is a part of me that's like, oh my God, like, there's no break. It's just like, I got to, I got to, gotta, I gotta, I gotta just, just keep, keep.

Yeah. I'm just doing the next thing. And it's, um, that is a lot. Yeah. And, um, and at times is, it feels like a pretty big weight. Uh, and, and a burden. Listen, I don't want people to think that they're, that this podcast is a burden, but on some level it's a burden. Listen, I don't want people to think that this podcast is a burden,

but on some level it's a burden. How could it not be? Good Lord. I mean, this is, you are just like, nakedly vulnerable on a weekly basis. Impressively so, from my vantage point, in the sense that you are so willing to just open yourself up the good, the bad, and the ugly.

And you're right, I hadn't thought about that sort of cadence of it. The pace of it, the cadence of it. You know, when we started this podcast, we were sort of doing it like, it was like, oh, it took seven weeks to get through one, and then, you know what I mean, like, we hadn't sort of gotten to this rhythm. Now that we're in this rhythm, it just is this, like, conveyor belt that is going and going and going. I do have a slight worry of, like,

am I gonna be able to keep this up? You know what I mean? Through this whole thing. Well, I hope it works out. Oh, so... Well, I think that's a great place to end this episode, but let's give you a little sneak peek into episode six next week where we are going to- It's how to destroy a career part one.

That's right. And the career is Richard Jacobs and we are going to get into all, we've interviewed a ton of people and all of the many adventures that your dad went on in his long and winding and batshit crazy career as an attorney. Here's a clip from next week's broadcast. And so remarkably you know this man who had obviously already destroyed so much made

this one little choice, yeah, simple choice, advertising his craft. And then refusing to give in even as the Missouri Bar Association took him to court even in spite of the fact that nobody, no lawyer had ever done what he was trying to do, he pressed on. Yeah, through the various levers of justice and all the way to the United States Supreme Court. Oh, yay. Oh, yay. Oh, yay. When dad won the Supreme Court case in 1981,

what do you remember about that? I thought that was good because he got the lawyers to advertise. Was he happy about it? He was happy about it. It's kind of a cool achievement to win a Supreme Court case. Yeah. In fact, we were all excited.

We were going to go to Washington, DC and watch the Supreme Court judges, you know, the argument in front of the court. And did you? No, because at the same time that that stealing by deceit and all that stuff came out and that he was arrested and everything. And so they wrote in the article in the newspaper that, by the way, this lawyer has been this barred for this and that, you they brought it all up and he was you know he was I don't know why he didn't want to go. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts and if

you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs you can reach us at Iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Also I'm gonna be honest with you guys we need all the help we can get so if you want to support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon at Patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff we're going to share. Pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons. Also, please find us on our social, specifically Instagram, at howtodestroyeverything.

You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.