How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy a Live Show

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren confront their audience live for the very first time. Danny discusses his complicated feelings about St. Louis, and surprise guests abound. Recorded at famed St. Louis merch shop, Stl-Style, Danny and Darren search for some meaning and share final thoughts from the journey they've just completed. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron a  www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Head to https://www.BubblyCleaning.com/HTDE to get your first 3 hours of cleaning for only $19. Thanks so much to Bubbly Cleaning for sponsoring this episode! Get 15% offOneSkin with the code DESTROY at https://www.oneskin.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I have a complicated relationship with my hometown of St. Louis. I mean, I'm sure that's the case for many people, but for me it truly does contain multitudes. On the one hand, I'm flooded with civic pride and happy memories watching Cardinal games at multiple Bush stadiums, eating St. Louis style pizza or Ted Drew's frozen custard. Driving around town I am filled with so much nostalgia. That's where the, that's the Denny's where that had become my de facto homework office in high school, the place I'd gorge on diet cokes and french fries until two in the morning.

There's the Esquire Theater, where Darren and I watched Jurassic Park for the first time on the day we graduated eighth grade, a moment that I think really catapulted us into the entertainment industry. But beyond those happy memories, I also see wisps of my dad everywhere I go. There's the Schnooks grocery store on Mason where my dad got arrested right in front of me.

There's the mailboxes etc. on Olive Street Road where my dad kept one of his many secret PO boxes. And there's the Burger King drive-thru where my dad got into a row with the manager after he tried to order a whopper with a coupon in which he'd clearly cut off the expiration date. Yesterday I visited his grave site tucked away in a Jewish cemetery off Lidu Road, and while I was standing there looking down at the headstone, I thought about something my dad would say to me, something in fact he was adamant about, that even in death he would always be watching. He literally said that. See, he was obsessed with psychics and maybe as part of his narcissism he convinced

himself that he would somehow have the power to cheat death and keep watching from on high. I don't know, he was pretty damn good with technology, right? So, dad, are you out there? If you're listening, if you are, give us a sign right now. Okay, thank fucking Christ. But seriously, I think one of the biggest things this podcast is about is reminding me that he's not actually listening anymore. He's really gone.

And that means I'm free. My name is Danny Jacobs, and this is How to Destroy Everything, a podcast about how one narcissist, my dad, destroyed his family, his neighborhood, and his community. And this is How to destroy a live show. Now let's please give a warm welcome to my best friend, my co-host, the man who had his first kiss on the golf course next to the Kreeve Corps ice skating rink,

Mr. Darren Grodzki. Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo! Beverly, Beverly, Belle Reeve Elementary School kid who had his first kiss at the ice skating rink at Grieve Core, anyone else besides me? No, okay. No one else, only you, Gretzky. Just me. I could name names about who it was, I'm not gonna do that to you. No, we won't do that.

No, no. Anyway, so how you doing, Danny? Oh, wow, this is weird. Yeah, it is. Normally it's just you and me and our producer in a studio, but now there's just like a wall of faces right in front of us. And it's delightful actually. No, it actually is, yeah.

So several things that I want to address. So first of all, we are, as some of you may know, nearing the end of the first season of How to Destroy Everything. So as part, for all of you, I'm going to give you a little bit of a spoiler because you guys are here here so you deserve it. As part of the season finale which yeah Danny and I along with his mom Sandy returned last night to the Royal Manor. Danny actually this I say returned, I returned because I was there as you may recall in episode three.

Two. Two. Three. Three. Three. But you went back. Yeah. And it was. Harrowing, terrible. Well I was just gonna ask, was it terrible?

Well no, I will say that it was, I was filled with dread. I had been there since the day that my dad's my dad's funeral right and I feel like I don't know how to look at you. Yeah that's good that's good and awkward. Is that awkward? It's nice and awkward. I'm gonna look at them. I had not been there since my dad's funeral. And honestly, part of it was that I was unsure how the experience of doing this podcast would affect my emotional vulnerability upon sort of entering that space. You know what I mean?

Like the unknown of that, I think, was really challenging for me. How did it affect your emotional vulnerability upon entering that space? Well, it was a lot. I mean, all the neighbors returned. My mom came with us. So it was the first time she had been back in many, many years

as well. First of all, being in the space of it felt like traveling through the multiverse into some other universe where I was in the same space and I could see sort of ghosts of myself sort of as a kid kind of running past me and I literally sat where I watched television like two feet from where I would just watch the TV

so many years and I had these, just so many flashbacks of these memories that the time that my dad, my dad had some weird things with food which I think we've discussed on the podcast. It's very strange food things, and one day when I was a kid, he was making a steak, and I was just so mad, and he finished it,

and I threw it on the ground, and he chased me. And he chased me. You threw the steak, the actual steak on the ground? I threw a finished steak on the ground. I mean, that's just cruel. And he yelled, it was cruel. But he ran after me. Wow.

And I ran, I remember just clawing my way up the stairs and going to my bedroom and slamming the door and I called the police and I was like, my dad's going to assault me. He didn't, but. Wait, wait, you told the police that your dad was going to assault you? Yes.

This is harrowing. Yeah, so I'm just sort of saying that as an example of what was sort of flooding back into my brain as I was In that space again Wow. Yeah, I was mostly just enjoying the snacks and the wine had some great snacks. That's true and Hang on. I want to linger on that for a second. So what happened? So you called the police? I got the police they came. I mean my dad didn't assault me He didn't that wasn't you know, that wasn't really part of our relationship, a physical assault I should say.

And so they talked to my dad, they called me down from my room, I talked to them, told them what happened and then they left and that was that. Was that the only time that you ever called the police on your dad? Yes, I think that was the only time I actually called the police on him, yeah. It feels like something we should have

included in the podcast. We, you know. Well, I guess we are now. Yeah. Yeah, the other thing I think that was just so notable about that house now is that, well, first of all, you can see a lot of the house, right? There's not boxes and papers stacked.

Yeah, the windows aren't covered in cardboard. That's right, Danny In fact, last night. The windows aren't covered in cardboard. That's right. Danny discovered a room last night that he did not know existed. Yes. This is a room in the house that he lived in until he was 18 years old. Yeah.

There was a fifth bedroom. I didn't know it existed. Because it was covered in, the door was covered in boxes, I guess. So there's, my dad had added this room over the garage that none of the other houses in our neighborhood had, and it was this unfinished room. And my mom has told me that the reason that it was unfinished

was for tax purposes. Like, if he actually finished the room, he would have to pay taxes for the greater square footage of the house. So, for my entire childhood, all that was in there was my dad's desk and a typewriter, and then just 10-foot tall spires of boxes and papers. Spires?

Spires, a spire, right? A spire of boxes? Yeah. That seems like it's a good use of words. We'll edit it out. It's fine. And so to get you through into the into that bonus room I would have to sort of navigate these obstacles and I just I think that I just

was so focused on making sure I didn't trip or something that I just never really kind of looked around and then there were also these huge again 10 foot tall spires spires of boxes and stuff and I think it was just covering this door and so we were there last night and I was walking down the hall and I then there was a girl in this room and I was like what is this room and they were like well it's been there as like it was here when I was when I grew up and they're like yeah and I had no idea I must have been weird for that nine year old girl last night to see this man come in here and be like,

what is this room? What is this room? You shouldn't exist in, girl. Yeah, and I feel like what you just said there in terms of, you know, you were so focused. You had this sort of tunnel vision is kind of, I don't know, symbolic, emblematic of a lot of your childhood, right?

Where you kind of, how you got through it symbolic, emblematic, of a lot of your childhood, right, where you kinda, how you got through it, seemingly, was this compartmentalization, tunnel vision, compartmentalization, ignoring a lot of the drama, the shit that was happening. Compartmentalization, yeah, yeah. I think I said that word, like, a second ago. I don't listen to you. But, and then, and then we made this podcast,

which just sort of completely blew up that tunnel vision. Yes, that's a good way of putting it. And I wonder, as we're wrapping up this first season of the show, wrapping up your story, where is your head now as far as, well, let me start broadly and just like all of it. The podcast, where are you at, Danny? Where am I at?

Inquiring minds once and now. I'll be very honest, I was saying to my mom yesterday after we went to the World Manor that like, there's a part of me that's tired. I'm like, I have been navel gazing here for like a year and a half. Just talking so much about myself and it's exhausting and I'm tired of it I have to say.

Maybe that's not the best thing to say. But I'm just being honest, it's hard to and weird to talk and think so much about yourself and your childhood and your family. So many conversations. When you say tired though, let's unpack that. Because do you mean you're just sick of yourself? Or are we talking about an emotional exhaustion, right? Both, both.

I mean, throughout this podcast, there'd be so many times when I would turn to Darren as we were recording something or editing something, and I'd be like, is this even interesting? That's true. Why would people care about this? Danny has no perspective on this. He will drop, you know, I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but some fascinating nugget

that no doubt many people have enjoyed and he's like, ugh, that's dumb. Yes. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's good. Why would anybody give a shit about any of this? This episode is brought to you by Bubbly Cleaning. Gradsky, we used Bubbly Cleaning in our home a few weeks ago. So did we.

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to get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. That's bubblycle cleaning.com slash HTT to get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. You know, come as we're coming to the end of the season, like I do feel like I have done so much emotional work here at such a expedited pace. Right? Like, yeah, in in maybe one of the episodes, but it's like normally you go to therapy and it's like you can just sort of come to your revelations when you come to them,

whether that's like five years down the road or whatever, but for me I'm like no, no, no. The audience demands it, man. Yeah, the next chapter should come up. Fuck, I gotta center myself. And that's very hard and very exhausting. But with the flip side of that, which I think is also true, is that like this,

and I told my wife this a couple days ago, like when I die, I can't conceive of a creative endeavor that I will have attempted that will have meant more to me than this. I mean, not just that I'm very proud of the work that we have done to create something that I think is really entertaining and interesting But obviously the emotional component has changed me in a in a fundamental way that I think I am NOT the same person that I was a Year and a half ago or whenever it was that we first put the pilot together.

Like I am much more in tune with my emotional core. I am less angry, specifically at my dad and by proxy at the world. So, and my hope is that both of those things will have made me a better father to my children. So that's kind of where I'm at. I mean, there's two sides to that coin. You kind of answered this question,

but I'll pose it just in the context of what you just said. We started back in episode one with me asking, and then I proceeded to ask this in one way or another almost every single episode whether or not this was a good idea you know whether we should because you know you and I live in fiction you know there obviously stories are almost always personal but they're they're hidden beneath the veneer of fiction this was not hidden at all you have been nakedly you're literally in a spotlight now with people staring at you as you're talking about this stuff.

So, you know, I mean, maybe you already answered it, but is there anything more you wanna say? Like, was this a good idea? Yeah, I think that when you've asked that many, many times, many times. So many times. Throughout this. I feel like it's my obligation as a friend to ask that

and not to just look like the opportunistic collaborator who's like, this is good shit many times. Throughout this. I feel like it's my obligation as a friend to ask that and not to just look like the opportunistic collaborator who's like, this is good shit, let's do this. Though I feel that also. Yes. I mean, me too. I mean, I should say that that's also, like that's another weird thing about doing this podcast

is that I am both the subject of it. You're a performer. And also one of the creators of it. And so my brain sometimes splits into two parts where I'm like, oh, I'm emotionally connected and oh, this is interesting. This is helpful to me as a growth in terms of my life and my personhood.

And then also the other part that's like, oh yeah, okay, this is a good story. I'm telling a good story. That's the part of you that's like, oh yeah, okay, this is a good story. I'm telling a good story. That's the part of you that's asking, is this interesting? Because you're always, your barometer is off here because you can't tell sometimes. Right, I can't, I can't.

I do think it's a good idea. I do think it has been a good idea. Oh, thank God. One of the reasons that I think that that is true is that we have gotten hundreds of messages from people all over the world that have, you know, when we started this, I think both of us thought, this is such a specific story,

this is such a specific man, that there's no way that people are gonna be able to see themselves or people that they know in this guy. Yes. Or in my story. But we were so wrong and people have been messaging us and sometimes that's hard. I mean sometimes I'll be in the grocery store with my kids and I'll get a message on Instagram or wherever. Why are you reading that when you're in the grocery store with your kids? I know. Well, that's a bigger question. It's a separate email. It's not even, it's the podcast email. No, no, no, but like an

Instagram. I get it, you know, you get a notification. Shut It's a separate email. It's the podcast email. No, no, no, but like an Instagram. I get it. You get a notification. Shut up, Rocky. You are not mentally healthy. But I'll get a message from someone. I remember this one time I was literally in the grocery store and just picking out fruits.

And I just happened to check my phone, and this lady had messaged us about how my dad was just like her husband except that her husband tried to blow up their house and kill her and her children and him but he failed but he killed himself in the process and he blew up their house and I'm just like oh god okay I guess let's get some organic strawberries. So it hasn't been easy to kind of internalize and sort of take in that. But I repeat, don't read the messages in the grocery store with your children. I don't know if there's a good place to read that message. Yeah, you're right though. We have gotten so many messages from people who have felt

an urge to sometimes in quite lengthy messages unburden themselves, talk through their own traumas I think because of the vulnerability that you have shown. Like you said, they see their story in yours despite the specificity of you and your dad. And, you know, many of them have talked about how they have conversations after listening to episodes of this show with their sibling or, you know, whomever in their family as they're processing, even sometimes healing, you know, themselves hearing this. Yeah, we got one. I just have flashed to one that was very meaningful to me,

which is after. Were you at Home Depot when you read this one? Yeah, we got one. I just flashed to one that was very meaningful to me, which is after. Were you at Home Depot when you read this one? Darren, I'm Jewish. I don't do self-improvement projects. I hire people for that. Touche, touche. No, it was after episode nine, which

was the episode where I talked about my dad kidnapping me. And I got a message from his dad who was like, who said, yeah, I was going through a divorce and I think I did that to my kids and I didn't I didn't realize what it was or what what effect it would have on them until I heard this episode. And it's it's sort of made me realize that. And I called them and apologized.

And and it was just so Powerful to to hear that kind of thing Yeah, I can honestly say that it was never our intention to help anyone But never what a wonderful All right our heads now I publicly admitted that so we can never say that it no that was the goal all along Alright, our heads. Now I've publicly admitted that so we can never say that it was the goal all along. How to Destroy Everything is brought to you by Beam. Danny, I'm one of those people who has a hard time falling asleep.

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slash destroy and use code destroy for up to 40% off so you might be wondering if you are gonna have a chance to see Sandy Jacobs the real star of the show unfortunately it's very cold outside and Sandy was not feeling too good, so she is not joining us tonight. I'm just kidding, she's here. She's here. So please welcome my mom, the one and only Sandy Jacobs. Cue the music. Sandy Jacobs.

Cue the music. I love that my mom brought her purse up here. I don't go anywhere without my purse. No, you don't want to leave that. Who knows what kind of riffraff are in this place. Hi, mom. Hi, Sandy. Hi. How are you?

I'm great. What do you think? All these people love you. How does that feel? Feels good. Sandy, I have the, Danny and I talked about going back to the Royal Manor last night and he talked about his experience. I wondered if you would share a bit about what that was like for you. It was exciting, you know. And I was a little bit, you know, wondering if I was going to be.

I didn't have the same trauma that Danny had. I just looked at it as like looking at what my house, how they fixed it up. From an architectural standpoint. Yeah. And I wanted to meet the people, the neighbors is what I was interested in, you know, meeting them and talking about what happened.

And I was just really blessed because the neighbors were just so caring and understanding and they didn't realize what I was going through because I didn't talk about it really you know with anybody. So that was a real blessing. But mom you you you had told me ahead of time that you were worried because you felt like they didn't like you when you were living there. Yeah they did. I felt like they were ostracizing me when I was living there. But I could see they apologized and they said they didn't know what was going on with Richard

and it was like it felt really good. So mom what I just kind of now looking back at this entire experience like what what is this whole podcast thing been like for you? Well, it's been really great. It's open, I felt like I had problems of actually showing my feelings and feeling any of this stuff. I didn't really feel sad about it. I had a hard time blaming Richard and you know,

and I felt sorry for him, just different things and I didn't work through. And because of this podcast, I really worked through a lot. I had this, a counselor and we worked through it together and I felt like it really helped me. There we go, Danny, helping people left and right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, it is, you and I have like it really helped me. There we go, Danny, helping people left and right. Yeah. I mean, it is, you and I have talked about how it is,

we just never banked on my mom going through in a narrative arc here. No, well, honestly, Sandy, I think that that is, to your eternal credit, not only did you endure the tsunami that was Richard Jacobs, but you know, you are so open and flexible and hearing things and working on yourself. I said this, I don't know if the episode has aired yet, but I find it very inspiring to hear you

and the progress that you have made. Thank you. One other thing I wanted to say. One thing I didn't, you know, I didn't remember was all the stuff that was going on. There was a lot of stuff I didn't remember and it was of people helping me. And the main one was Mark Krueger.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Mark Krueger, who he's here tonight and he's the guy, he's the lawyer that my mom didn't even realize was paying, was just working for her for free as he was defending her against this litany of lawsuits. Over years and years.

Ten years. Give us a wave, Mark Kruger. You deserve it. You deserve it. I mean. I feel like, you know, when you have someone like Richard who just doesn't adhere to any societal norms whatsoever and just bulldozers over anyone and everyone, you need people like Mark who are willing to fight back, fight back to take the time and fight

back, you know, for Sandy and really for all of us. The superpower that my dad had was a relentlessness. Yes. An unwillingness to give up no matter what. And so you need people on the side of good that are willing to do that too. Otherwise the fight is lost. Yeah, because most people, when your dad would,

in the face of that, they would just not want to deal with it. Like, I'll just, fine, do whatever you want. It's exhausting. Mark is really a hero and somebody that I think is, I certainly look up to. And I told this to him when he was on the podcast. But I don't think that, I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back now, I don't think that I would have been

able to survive without somebody like him who was helping my mom, you know, without me knowing it. Yeah. Yeah, Mark. Yeah, Mark. Also, in a weird, in a weird sort of kind of connection, small world thing, Mark was a partner of, in the law firm of Jeff and Randy's dad. Is that right? Do I have that right?

Who is here? Who is here as well? There he is. Lenny Vines. Lenny Vines. So that's, that's have that right? Who is here as well? There he is, Lenny Vines. So that's to me super wild. A big small town St. Louis. Mom, one question I had for you that I've been wondering is, I know that, you know, after, I know why you stayed in St. Louis for however long you did when I was growing up and my brother was growing up.

But when we went to college, I've always wondered why you still stayed in this city given that there was no reason. And that your dad was still here. My dad was still here, it had caused you so much strife and pain. What's the answer to that question? I just love being in St. Louis.

That is way better pandering than I was doing. That's great pandering. Except for her, it's legitimate. So you just love the city. Yeah, and the people and all my friends. And I didn't really have anybody except for my brother and my nieces in Kansas City So I thought I'm just gonna stay here. Yeah mom Do you think that because I know that you talked about prior to this Experience of the podcast that you would not talk about dad or your experiences with him because you felt

That people wouldn't believe you right is that right? Have you been more willing? and believe you, right? Is that right? Have you been more willing when you meet people or people that you know to talk about your past with them since this? Only if they ask. I just feel like not talking about it that much.

You know, I don't wanna keep talking and talking and talking about it. So I don't really talk about it that much anymore. Do you still have a fear that people won't believe you? Not so much since this podcast but I did all because we had all that proof but at you know I just felt like at the time I would talk about it when I when things were happening and then one of my friends pulled me over and said you know pulled me aside and said you know I wouldn't talk about it when things were happening. And then one of my friends pulled me over, and pulled me aside and said,

you know, I wouldn't talk about all that stuff. People are gonna think you're crazy. So I didn't, so I just stopped. For decades, right? Yeah, I talked about it to my close friends, but not to everybody like I was doing. That also is kind of Richard's other superpower, right? Was that he could make other people think

or appear to be the crazy ones. When in fact, obviously he was the center of the storm. Yeah. One question I have for both of you, as again we're wrapping up this season and the eternal navel gazing, the talking and talking and talking will die down. Where do you go from here in terms of your dad, your ex-husband? Where do you, you know, you said you feel like you're less angry at your dad and at the world. You in an earlier episode talked about how you've kind of reclaimed your name, Sandy. I don't know, maybe Sandy, you first. What are your thoughts moving forward in terms of this journey? Just the same as I'm doing now.

Which is what? Well, I go to work and I come home and I have my friends and I'll visit you and your brother and just having my life. I think that is both very simple and also very profound, Mom, and the way that you have survived everything that you have is due to that very perspective,

when you're just like, you literally are somebody that embodies the idea of putting one step in front of the other. Yes. You're just gonna keep on going no matter what is happening. But I do wish, I do hope that there's a, in the future there's a limited series.

Why are we doing a limited series? Yeah, that can't be ongoing. Seven seasons of a movie. What are you talking about, mom? A television series, you're saying. Television series, yeah. For me, Darren Kroatsky, Darren Eugene Gradsky. Middle name.

I think they knew that was your middle name when I put it between your first name and last name. I don't know. Maybe they just think you're making up names. I, moving forward, what was your question? What was it again? I'm giving you a chance to talk about yourself more. Oh, great.

Which Danny, by the way, has no problem doing, Sandy. But yeah, moving forward, where do you go from here? Yeah, look, here's the thing. As a storyteller, what I want this season of the podcast to be is this very tight narrative where we come to a conclusion and it has a definitive end. But what I recognize. And then you're healed.

And then I'm healed and everything is great. Yes. But what I have had to come to understand is that this is not that kind of fictional story. And that the reality is that I think that this is a chapter, the first chapter, a necessary chapter, that I needed to have whatever that second chapter is, which I will likely have not on the podcast,

or maybe on the podcast in some limited form, or popping in here and there as we move forward. I don't know, but I don't think it will be as public facing as it has been, and I think that's how it should be. I think where I am now is someone who feels confident about whatever that next emotional challenge is

in terms of understanding my past and my present in a way that I would not have ever been close to had we not done this. And I'm interested in having that space for myself and my therapist and nobody else. But I would not have had the bravery of getting here if not for this podcast. I honestly think that that is true.

Like I've had conversations on this podcast that I never would have had. Would I not have done this? The episode that airs next week, I mean when people hear this, it's gonna be after it would have aired, but chronologically, the next. The temporal details do not matter.

Yeah, you're right. The episodes that are coming up on the podcast with my brother are discussions and conversations that we have never had in our lives, and have sort of forced us into this space where we're talking about things that are very uncomfortable, that we would not have talked about otherwise and We are now having those conversations

Offline which is where they should be right honestly and but you're right the podcast Instigated those it was fascinating to be a part of that into literally hear you two getting closer in these discussions That's it's remarkable. Yeah. Yeah, when you said earlier about how in therapy, progress can happen in fits and starts over long periods of time, maybe that's the benefit of the condensed and accelerated nature

of the breakthroughs that you were sort of forced to have, is you made a lot of progress in a very short period of time. And I'm looking forward to a much lazier journey. Yes. Yes, indeed. I also want to point, I just want to maybe say, just introduce a couple other people who are here

that were in the podcast at some point, which is number one, Darren Gradsky's mother, Gloria Gradsky. Gloria Gradsky's right here. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Gloria, Mrs. Gradsky, as I knew her and still know her and have a very difficult time saying her first name, was instrumental, I think.

Her middle name is Rosalyn, by the way. Was so instrumental in me seeing a model of a family that was healthy and loving and nuclear. And I don't think this, I know that this podcast would not exist without her, without giving Darren the perspective that he has. Also I wouldn't exist without her. Sure, sure, sure. So it was a practical concern there.

Also is Elaine now here? Elaine who now is here, yes. Yes, okay, Elaine was the she's the woman who went on the date with my dad to Six Flags where he refused to pay for her and one of her daughters Robin. Yes yes so they are here as well thank you guys for coming. So that's two people here who wanted to date with Richard Jacobs are here tonight. Yes. Elaine, I think you made a great choice.

Yeah. OK, so should we kind of move to the next section of this puppy? I think so. Yeah. Mama, unless there's anything you want to say? Any last thoughts? No, she's got nothing. OK, so let's bring out Susie, who is...

Yes, yay, Susie! Susie is here, and she's going to moderate a bit of a Q&A based on your guys' questions and her own and so forth and so on. This episode is brought to you by One Skin. Gradsky's summer's just around the corner. It is? And I don't know if you know this. It is. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I am a pale-skinned

ghost of a human being. And so SPF, really really important for me and that's why I am a devotee of one skin. I am actually, I'm not quite as pale as you, but I am similarly devoted to one skin for the same reason. I've actually always had a hard time maintaining a skin lotion routine, any kind of skin treatment. I don't know, I'm lazy, I'm bad about it, but the fact that one skin also has these SPFs that block UV rays so that I'm getting

both the moisturizing skin treatment and the protection against the sun, that double whammy has finally made me into a regular skin treatment and the protection against the sun, that double whammy has finally made me into like a regular skin treatment person. I'm doing it on my face every single day before I go out. And you know what I really love about OneSkin? Their OS01 Face SPF. It works at the cellular level to improve

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After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with one skin. Your future self will thank you. Let me let me unfold all these many pieces of paper that you guys left me. Thank you guys, by the way, for for letting me moderate this and for having. Oh, gosh, thank you for doing it. Yes, Suzy. Thank you.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I'm a local musician here in St. Louis. I'm also the longest serving employee of STL Style besides Jeff and Randy. Hey, yeah! Even longer than Jeff and Randy? Not quite, but it's getting close. They're not employees. It's Jeff and Randy, and then Frankie the Cat, and then me.

Oh, yes. So, that's really, truly. So anyway, so okay. So we've got some questions that's really truly. So anyway, so OK. So we've got some some questions that you guys submitted. I have I've listened to every episode. I'm a big fan. And it wasn't one of those things where, you know, Jeff and Randy were like, oh, you know, we're going to we're going to host this thing, blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh, I'm better listen to the show.

So I know it's no, no, no, no, no, I've been caught up. I'm caught up by Wednesday morning, I'm on top of this. So I was very excited and I'm very honored to be here with you guys. So I have some questions as well. First of all, somebody submitted questions that are all of your security questions for your bank account.

Oh, that's great. Very smart. I think we're going to skip that one. Very smart. Very, very clever. I think we're going to skip that one. Thank you, though. This is sort of a question for both of you, sort of talking about the...

You guys have such a great dynamic. You've obviously been friends for a very long time. Somebody asked is your time together scripted or spontaneous or a combination? Love your show, Yvonne. Is that, well obviously we don't have, but is that our time together like when we're just hanging out? Is that scripted? I write everything Danny says 24 hours a day. He makes me memorize it. Yes. We meet at 6 in the morning every day, and I make sure he's off book. So in terms of the podcast part of it, I mean, we do script everything, actually.

We script everything. Not the interregnums, but the. No, that's true. The numbered episodes, we spend a great deal of time scripting. And then we get into the studio, we record the script and if we feel like it's feeling written or kind of overly formalized or something, we will do takes where we say like, let's just throw away the script and we'll... Go a little loosey-goosey.

We'll go loosey-goosey on it. There are times though when I and our producer, Michael Grant Terry, who can't be here, he's back in Los Angeles but he wishes he were we will sometimes collaborate on questions that I want to ask Danny the Danny's does not know are coming because sometimes you you do want that spontaneous yeah response and discussion so but but for the most part it is written except the interregnums are not at all we don't we have like shapes for the interregnums but we don't actually script them I'm actually glad you brought up the interregnums because I have a question about that.

So you guys, as you mentioned, and as I'm sure all of you listeners know, you know, you'll do a numbered episode. You'll do an interregnum. Now, in case anybody was wondering and is not as big of a nerd as I am, and is not as big of a nerd as I am, Merriam-Webster's first definition of the word interregnum is the time during which a throne is vacant between two successive reigns or regimes. There's a couple other ones subsequently. Second is a period during which the normal functions

of government or control are suspended. Not gonna touch that. Too soon. Third is most relevant, sort of directly, a lapse or pause in a continuous series, which is obviously the definition we're using here. No, no, the first one. Well, but that was, that was sort of my question though, was while the first definition of the word does feel oddly fitting for a story about Richard Jacobs Who literally named his house the royal fucking man? Yeah, what are we doing? Um, I'm curious why you chose the term interregnum as opposed to saying like this is episode You know 1.5 or what what was the the thought process behind that choice?

Well, if you're looking for some kind of really well-thought out plan, you've come to the wrong place. Yeah. Remember, we didn't know this was gonna help anybody. Yeah. Yeah. So... No, I mean, I think we were just looking... Look, we knew that... We knew early on that we wanted to tell this story that happens in the past,

which are the numbered episodes, and then somehow kind of explore what that meant for us and me in the present. And I don't, and so that, we knew that the interregnums needed, we felt like they needed to have a different nomenclature so that we could differentiate between those, because they felt like two kind of separate narratives

that would eventually congeal but not for a while. And we wanted some organizational way to do that. I don't know how we landed on interregnum, do you? Real quick question, does the Merriam-Webster's dictionary say whether the plural of interregnum is interregna or interregnums? You know, I didn't look. That's a great question. Suzie?

I thought I was prepared. I genuinely don't know. Yeah, I think honestly, when we launched the podcast, some of you may have been with us from the very beginning. So we, speaking of not having a plan, we launched this podcast having made two episodes. That was probably all that we were gonna do. That honestly was all we were going to do because we really thought of it as a proof of concept for a television show. And then when it blew up and became

the number three podcast in America, we were like, oh gosh, we should probably do more of this. But we didn't have any more episodes, it takes a long time to make them, we had a long hiatus, we're so sorry, et cetera. But we did release a short something around then, and Danny and I, in our nerddom, I think, were like, why don't we have a little interregnum?

So they know it's not, we didn't want to disappoint people, we didn't want people to click on it thinking this is episode one. We wanted them to know that it wasn't an actual episode. Yes, you're totally. So I think it just that's that's the kind of word that emerges organically from our conversation. Some real screenwritership.

Yes. Well, that actually leads me into my next question. So, you know, there's sort of this joke in like pop culture discourse that like every white guy has a podcast. Oh, you know, there's sort of this joke in like pop culture discourse that like every white guy has a podcast. Yeah. Oh, yes. And it's usually white guys talking to other white guys. Yes. Feels here we are with glasses with glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Box. Yep. However, however, for those of you who are fans of the show, but don't know Danny and Darren's other

work, they're very well respected screenwriters, directors. They they act as well. They're very respected there as well. So I'm just curious, you know, given your backgrounds in a more visual medium, why, why, why a podcast? Like why an audio only medium to tell this story? Like what, what was sort of the thought process of like, instead of writing a movie or a limited series, TV show or whatever else, why a podcast? Well, we tried. Yeah, yeah, so we, so Danny's dad died in 2015

and we knew for our whole lives, our whole professional careers that we had a character at least inspired by his dad that was incredible. But we didn't really want to do anything while he was still alive, as you might imagine why. I said to someone earlier, if he were alive right now, literally everyone in this room would be sued. Every single one of you.

For even being here. We'd all be on the phone with Mark. Yeah, yeah, Mark, please. But so after he died, we wrote a pilot, a pilot for a TV show. And could, you know, it's a period piece, right, set in the 80s, which makes it more expensive, yada, yada, yada, we could get no traction on it whatsoever. And it was actually a friend of ours.

Danny and I would always tell Richard stories. Whenever we'd have meetings in Hollywood, we would just be like, can we tell you something about my dad? You know, the small talk at the beginning of meetings, we didn't talk about the weather. We talked about Bristol's or whatever. And we were having drinks with a friend of mine

from college, actually, who heard these stories and was like, this should be a podcast. And when she said it, and then used the podcast sort of half-jokingly, then you can turn it into a TV show, but when she said it and then use the podcast sort of half jokingly then you can turn it into a TV show but when she said it it seemed so obvious well we had we'd already been talking about doing a podcast for years the podcast that we the idea that we had involved my mom also that's right we were like let's do a podcast where every week we assign a movie for my mom to watch and then we just bring her on and we talk about her thoughts about that movie.

I would absolutely listen to that. You guys want that podcast? I think it's kind of an amazing idea for a podcast. I love that. Yes. Whatever my mom thinks about a movie, I am game. I'm here for it. The funny thing is, is if we had just done that podcast, I think our audience would have

been about like 150 people, but now maybe there is demand for... I was gonna say, that's the spinoff series. That's the mod of. So we'd always talked about podcasts. Also, I mean, Darren has a particular voice that since we were children, once he hit puberty, people were like, God, your voice.

Yeah, they have. And then they would just turn to me and stare blankly. They would be like, and you're there. You could be a mime. You could, yeah, you could be there. You could turn on the system, so we could record Darren's voice. I think if both of our voices were the same, it would actually be a problem.

I think you need that to sort of complement. You have the little guy voice and the big guy voice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Ah.

Oh my god. All right. Oh my God. All right. Oh my goodness, where do I even? Let's keep drinking. Yeah, please have more beer. You know, Darren, this one's kind of more for you. Obviously you guys have been friends for a very, very long time.

You've lived through a lot of this stuff with Danny, or been alongside Danny while it's happening. But I know you mentioned on the show that Danny hid a lot of what was going on at home or sort of what he was feeling about. And obviously, you know, both both Sandy and Danny have talked about how, you know, they were sort of secretive and emotionally closed off from a lot of that stuff. But I was wondering if there I know you mentioned in the Australia episode

that you there was part of it where you're like, I'm mad. Yeah, like I'm straight up mad for you right now. But I'm wondering maybe that aside or maybe that was one. Is there any particular Richard story that stands out for you that caught you like especially off guard, even knowing what you knew going into this? Yes, I would say that my experience of this is that I was along for the ride, so to speak, all along. Once I thought that, how about you said that, you used the word hid, that Danny hid it.

Do you think that's true? Do you think, did you hide it consciously? Yeah, that's what I was, I felt like it was like just an instinctive. It was just like a super compartmentalization which just happened very naturally. Do you think that's a defense mechanism? Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, it must be. I mean, it was how I survived. I wouldn't have survived otherwise. You know what I mean? For me, like as a kid and even as we got older, I was aware of the stories. I experienced some things, but I always understood it from an outside perspective.

In the sense of, I never really put myself in Danny's shoes and tried to imagine what it was actually like to endure that on a daily basis, to live in that house and deal with that man. Honestly, for me, it was mostly amusing. And when we were coming in our 20s, we were talking about, oh, one day we're gonna make a movie or a TV show that's with Richard as a character,

I was like, this is gonna be hilarious. And obviously there is a lot that is very funny, but overall this process has made it, and I'm also older now and I have kids myself, so I think that changes things, but it's made it so and I'm also older now and I have kids myself, so I think that changes things, but has made it so that I now really imagine what he was like, and I remember that kid, and I'm just thinking of that kid

dealing with all of that. The story in particular, Danny referenced it earlier, it was the kidnapping in episode nine. That is such a harrowing, beyond the pale, fucked up thing to do to a seven year old kid, which I have a seven year old kid. And I cannot imagine, if I did anything that elicited that,

one tenth of the reaction that Danny had in that moment, I would stop doing it immediately. And for him to see it through is, even now, actually I feel this like rage boiling in me So yeah, I that I'd say my potential for real Richard empathy probably snapped sometime around That revelation that's fair. Yeah Interestingly you sort of Mention this and I want to elaborate on this a little more

You just dropped the word comedy, which, you know, not the funniest show you've ever listened to, probably overall. But early on, especially the first couple of episodes that you guys dropped, it sort of had a tagline and it was, you know, a comedy. If you look at like the early, that's right, sort of advertisements and stuff for the show. And later, Danny, you sort of get called out

by the psychologist that you guys had on the show. Right. For sort of using humor to sort of couch or distract you from these emotional struggles. How daring. Well, but I want to touch on that because, like I, full disclosure, I have a narcissist mother who I do not any longer speak to.

And so it's been very interesting sort of going on this journey with you. And especially that episode for me, like really hit home where I was like, you know, and the part where you asked, like, can my dad like can my dad have really loved me in a way that normal people love their children and the psychologist like very kid glove was like, No, not really. And it was that was sort of something that really hit home for me, too, or is like, oh, yeah, no, like that's

narcissists can only love themselves and their children as extensions of them. But, you know, back to the sort of like the comedy aspect of it and sort of using that as a distraction. Do you think that's something that you've gotten better about over the course of the show or since then? Or do you think that that's something that you will always struggle with? Well, or both? I don't know that I would use the word struggle. I mean, comedy is part of how I see the world

and I like seeing the world through the lens of comedy. We are all on a planet hurtling through space and we're all gonna die and the planet's gonna die and the sun's gonna explode. Hilarious. But there's something so absurd then about all of our little internal machinations and our

getting angry at a stoplight and somebody not turning on their turn signal. That's funny to me. Yeah. And tragedy plus time equals comedy. That's the whole thing. Yeah. And I also think that it would just be too relentless and oppressive to view my childhood through only the lens of the tragedy.

Like, I just think that I don't know that I would be able to grasp it if I only viewed it through that lens. And I don't think other people would be able, it just becomes too much, it's just too weighty if it doesn't have the lightness there. And the reality is that there was lightness in my childhood. There was a dark, absurdist comedy to my childhood.

I mean, some of the shit that Richard pulled was genuinely funny. Yeah. Hundreds of corks to pay for a meal is funny. It's just funny. The lobsters are... Yeah. It's... But I do think what I will say is that I do know that like,

I certainly use comedy as a deflection. And I have found that I'm less, when I understand the assignment, that the assignment being to, okay, this is something that is important and emotionally like I need to be present and aware here. I think I'm more aware that I will sometime, that in the past I will have sort of veered left

at that moment and sort of thrown out a joke where I won't now. So I think I'm aware of the circumstance and where the circumstance dictates it. I think that I am, it's less, what I will say is, I guess what I'm saying is it's less unconscious now. Like if I'm gonna make something a comedic moment,

I will do so in a conscious way and instead of just being the way that my brain immediately turns. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also think as an observer of Danny, when we were younger, even into our 20s, I think you had a couple modes.

There was work mode, where you were serious mode, even as kids in school, you were a serious academic student, and then we'd be working on something, you'd be serious. But then other times, when, I don't know, we're out for a birthday party or whatever, social events, you kind of were in on mode, you know, you were on. There was a, you were dealing with,

viewing the world through some performance or comedy, we talked about this with some of our friends. And I think you have more modes now, you know, I think that we've talked about how you and I never really talked about this stuff at length prior to the podcast. And maybe it's a function of being a dad and the podcast. There are other modes of Danny. It's not just serious work mode and performative mode.

Yeah. All right. This one made me laugh. Who do you think Richard Jacobs would have voted for for president? Such a great question. That's a wonderful question. Oh wow.

Oh was it? Oh God. Okay. It's a great question. I mean my dad was, my dad throughout his whole life was a Democrat. I, I, I think, I'm assuming we're talking about 2024.

I presume, yes. I would presume. I thought it was 1988. And then caucus. My guess, if I were to I presume I would presume. I thought it was 1988, then caucus. My guess, if I were to guess, I would say Kamala Harris. And the reason that I would say that is because I think my dad would have been incapable of seeing himself in the Republican candidate.

I think that his ability to have any kind of self-reflection or just be able to look outside of himself and see similarities. Was your dad particularly political though? Like I don't remember feeling, I had a lot of discussions with him about things and we never talked politics. I wouldn't say he was political,

I would say he was informational. I mean, like as we've said, like he read three newspapers a day. He read the Wall Street Journal, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and the USA Today. And he read them religiously, and he had a beeper on his watch that would go off to remind him

that it was time for the news. And he would watch the local news and the nationals every day. Okay, what channel news, though? Oh, that's a great question. Well, probably PBS for the PBS for national Lair News hour. Yeah. Yeah, maybe in McNeil Lair I don't know who the local news would have been

I remember that watch alarm would go off if you were a movie theater didn't matter right that thing beeped every single day For the last 30 years of his life. Yeah, that thing would go up So he was he like knew a lot about things going on in the world. He liked to talk about them. In fact, my brother and I have talked about this. It's like, that was one of the areas that I felt really comfortable engaging with my dad. My dad, because once we moved away from the personal,

where there wouldn't be whatever weird boundaries that it had about sharing who he was or his past, or I didn't feel like, oftentimes I would talk to him and feel like I was being interrogated, whatever weird boundaries that he had about sharing who he was or his past. Or I didn't feel like, oftentimes I would talk to him and feel like I was being interrogated, that he would sort of be asking me question after question. If we moved the space to like, oh, this is what's happening in the world, we could sort of, it was safe,

and we could talk about it in that way. So that was an area of our relationship that felt very, that felt great, honestly. But anyway, I don't think he would have voted for Trump. I think he would have voted for Kamala Harris out of just a pure lack of self-awareness. That's so funny. That's fair, that's fair.

All right, this is an interesting question somebody submitted. How do you feel about the idea that this podcast is giving your dad the attention he was always seeking and does he win? I mean, he's dead, so what's he winning? Yeah, mom, what do you think about that, Cindy? No, how can he win?

This whole podcast is healing us. It's not winning for him. Yeah, I think, I mean, my dad's particular pathology was interesting because unlike a fair number of narcissists, he was uninterested in attention in a certain way. I mean, he spent so much time in his life trying to hide anybody's ability to find him or understand who he was. That was the whole purpose of the Royal Manor,

was to hide his address, no one could find him. He won a Supreme Court case and he hid the fact that he was the one who won that Supreme Court case. So I think it's kind of complicated for him in terms of him I should say. I think ultimately I actually think he would have been mortified by this podcast. I think he would have I think that's why he would have been very angry and he would have sued me and me and Darren and you Susie. You know what I love that for him, though. Yeah, yeah.

Don't hate it, that's for sure. So in that way, because he always talked about his privacy, right, Mom? Like he would always say, like, oh, I'm doing this because of my privacy. He was very obsessed with his privacy. Maybe he would have started a competing companion podcast. That would, I would welcome that.

Richard's. How to Destroy Danny J.. Richard's side. How to destroy Danny Chayka. Oh yes, yes. The podcast. I have one last question, and this one's for you Danny. What is one happy memory of your dad? I need some time. I bet you do.

Look, we're chillin', you're good. I bet you do. Look, we're chillin'. You're good. This is so specific. But I don't know why this just came to me. But I think it's just emblematic of something, which is like, I just remember I was probably like 11. Maybe not even that old, like nine.

And my dad, it's just a father-son scene. Like my dad, I remember I wanted to learn how to type. And my dad downloaded or got, I don't know if he downloaded, no, it was probably a DVD-ROM at that point, of some typing game on the computer and him sort of sitting beside me as I typed, as I did this little game where I tried to like best some computer avatar in how fast you could type. It feels like such a weird pedestrian answer to that, but I think that that's the point, that like the thing that I most cherished

about a relationship were those little moments that felt like anybody else's father-son relationships that wouldn't have stood out to anybody else if anybody in the audience was asked what's a moment that stands out to you about you and your dad, it's probably something that has more outsized importance, but for me it's just that little simple basic thing

of me and my dad just sitting next to each other doing a totally normal thing that is not in any way weird or difficult or challenging. That's that's what I remember. I do think that that's emblematic of what makes this sort of complicated. You know, if if Richard were actually 100 percent monstrous and disengaged from you, he's more easily dismissible. But he was involved.

He went out and got that CD-ROM or whatever because you were interested in typing. And maybe he was doing this because you're an extension of himself and yada, yada, yada. But like your experience was he went to great lengths at times to do something for you, to spend time with you and so forth. I think that's emblematic of a lot of things

that I remember. It's so normal, though. That's what I'm saying. It's like that moment in it. Nothing about it was weird. Nothing about it was weird. Nothing about it was an extension of his pathology. It was just a regular little tiny moment

that would have gone unnoticed by most people in their own lives, because it would have happened every single day. But for me, it is the outstanding moment. It is the one that I recall in this moment as you ask me what is the moment of my childhood. It's just that simple little thing. Well, god damn it. This has been a goddamn blast. I have to say that as Darren and I have been doing this podcast, honestly we have been I think starving for feedback. Yes, it's like it's weird to you know with it with like a film you screen a movie and there's an

audience that reacts to it. With this podcast, Danny and I have been like locked away in a studio or occasionally in our respective closets in our houses interviewing people And it's and this is such an intimate story that you know just to be here with you guys It's incredible. Thank you so much for yeah, and Yeah, I Honestly have to say that tonight I have felt a connection to the audience, to you guys, but just the audience, just I'm feeling the listeners in a way, in an entirely new way.

So I think in addition to thanking Jeff and Randy Vines again for hosting us here at STL Style. I just wanna make sure that we thank you guys because for however scary that this has been for me, it has made it possible because of you. However vulnerable and honest that I have been, I have felt a vulnerability and honesty from you guys as well. So I wanna thank you, say thank you to everybody that has written to us and told us your stories

for interacting with us on our Patreon, for sharing your vulnerability, for sharing your shameful moments. Honestly, that has given me the strength that I've needed to do this totally, totally, totally insane thing. Yes. And so now that we're getting ready to wrap up this episode.

This is the point when normally we, Danny and I would bicker over who gets to say the name of the episode. But since this is a special moment where we have so many people here, it should have a kind of a special ending, I think. Maybe we should all say it together. Yeah, so I think we should do that altogether

if you guys are cool with that. So that, what I'll say is until season two, this has been another episode of three, two, one. How to Destroy Everything. Thank you guys so much for coming. We really appreciate it. How to Destroy Everything is written, directed, and created by Danny Jacobs and Darren Gronsky. Executive produced by Michael Grant Terry.

Live show edited by Michael Grant Terry, live show edited by Michael Grant Terry, recorded by Bill Streeter and Hydraulic Pictures. Special thanks to Jeff and Randy Vines at STL Style for hosting the event. you you you