How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy a Nose Job

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren go deeper into the mind (& world) of phone phreak 'Captain Crunch' in an attempt to understand Richard's love affair with technology. We'll also revisit one of the seminal stories we learned about Richard in an earlier episode and discover that it may not be true after all! Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to How to Destroy Everything, a podcast in which we talk about the St. Louis Cardinals and their offseason plans. And it's going to be a big one. I'm Darren Grotsky. And I'm Danny Jacobs. And we've lost a lot of listeners there who don't care about baseball. No, no. This is a story, a podcast about my narcissistic, malignant narcissist father who died in 2015

and the ripples of destruction that moved out from him. Was your father, Danny, a Cardinals fan? Because you're a huge Cardinals fan. Not particularly. He would go to games with me sometimes. But no, it was my grandfather that was a huge fan. My dad was not a huge fan of anything. Right, other than himself, I suppose.

Like, there wasn't like a movie that he loved or a piece of music or a band that he loved. There was no fandom in him. So interesting, because I feel like as a father, a lot of what I enjoy doing is sharing, you might say burying my children in the things that I love. Oh yeah.

You guys, listen to this, watch this. Brainwash. Brainwash, yeah. Is another word for that. And your father never did that to you? No, no, just brainwashed in other ways. Well, anyway. More destructive ways.

So before we move forward with his interregnum, Danny, I have a question for you. Last interregnum two weeks ago, we had a conversation about a family member of yours, Karen. Karen, yes, yes. And I just wanted to check in to see if there's any updates. Well, just, you know, look, since our discussion

and talking about my anger with her, and, you know, I've just been thinking about, like, oh, you know, when can I do... When do I feel like I'm ready to kind of reach out and just apologize for my text to her? I haven't decided to do anything. I've just been thinking about it and just been reflecting. There hasn't been a huge update, except to say, I guess,

so on our family Zoom calls, we have these weekly family Zoom calls. We talked about it, Danny, yes, we all remember. And on the last one, somehow my uncle Hyman came up, my mom's brother, and my mom mentioned something vaguely about how, oh, it was nice to hear his voice. On the podcast, right? But she didn't exactly say podcast,

or it wasn't clear that it was a podcast. And Karen was on the Zoom. And so Karen said, oh, what did he record that you heard his voice? Oh, wow. And my mom said the podcast. And apparently, Karen then, I didn't see it. Somebody in the family told me about it later.

She like stuck her tongue out like a child might when they are disgusted with something. Like she literally stuck her tongue out. Like, like, like, fooey. Yeah, exactly. And then quickly, very quickly pivoted the conversation. And I just got angry again. And I hung up.

And my cousin called me. It was a really nice call, because she was just like, hey, what do we do about this? Yeah. And I just don't know that I can right now, or for the foreseeable future, be on these Zoom calls anymore. Oh, man. If Karen is there.

I just have like, I'm just filled with anger the entire time. And it's like, that kind of thing just bubbled to the surface just right away. And like, I don't know that that's serving anybody. And so now is that where you're at, where you're gonna sit out these family Zoom calls? If she's on it, if she's on it, I'm going to,

but I will try to make an effort to have separate Zooms with my family so they can see my kids and the kids can see them. It's like how you had the two separate family text chains. Now you have to have the separate. Well, now you just made me think, like, it's also how, like, all growing up, I had my two sides of the family, my mom and my dad. I'd have separate holidays and separate, you know,

all that kind of stuff. It's a, yeah, I've put myself into a situation that is reminiscent of that for sure. It makes me, I just want to ask a situation that is reminiscent of that for sure. It makes me, I just wanna ask this question for the 17th time. Are you sure you wanna do this podcast? Is this a good idea?

Like are we? I don't know, man. Like, you know, you're having all of these things bubble up to the surface for you just individually, and then you're having all of these interactions and family dynamics that are shifting, and like, we're talking about it, you know, like you are in therapy,

like are we, is everything okay? Danny, tell me that everything is okay. I wish I could, Darren, but I can't, I'm not here to paint that picture for you. Here's what I'll say is that I'm hopeful that this is like cleaning a room and that it gets messier before it gets cleaner. Right, like that makes sense to me,

that that's the journey. But I don't know dude, we're pot committed. I mean like we're doing this thing. Like I don't know that it's like, you know. Right, this is not the last episode of the podcast. There's a lot more to come and so we're just gonna try to. We're not gonna end it over the fact that I'm not participating in Zooms anymore.

Family Zooms, right. That would be weird. Also, stopping it wouldn't get you back in the family Zoom. No, exactly. The anger is there. The rage is there. So that's all to say I'm clearly not ready yet to send her a text apologizing for my comment. And now I'd like to introduce our special guest this week, Karen. In all seriousness, I am on the record as concerned, but hopeful. If I were calling into the show, that would be my name. Hello, this is concerned, but hopeful.

First time caller, long time listener. So anyway, that's the update on that. Now, last week in episode six, we spoke with a number of really interesting people, that's the update. Now, last week in episode six, we spoke with a number of really interesting people, and near the top of that list, I would say, is Mr. Captain Crunch himself, John Draper. And it was a really fascinating and quite long interview that we only were able to include selections from.

Yeah, well one of the reasons we should say is, you know, John Draper, let me figure out a euphemism here, but he's an interesting fellow. I mean like. Well he goes by the name Captain Crunch. Yeah, he made the oblique reference to the fact that he was in prison. Yes, that was. Just sort of out of the blue.

Like this obsession. Which by the way though, who's just, you know, a lot of people. No judgment. I mean a little judgment. Yeah, you had a little judgment. Yeah, you had a little judgment. Well you gotta have a little judgment. Somebody's going to prison breaking the law.

But I mean, you know, he's a strange dude. Yes. Strange dude. Yes. Now there are a couple of selections from our interview with Captain Crunch that we'd like to play here in this interregnum. And the first of which Danny, you mentioned,

he was in prison and he actually told a story. Oh yeah. About his time in prison that... Listen, this is not connected to my dad at all. It's just, it's a crazy story, so... Enjoy. When I was at Blompock Federal Prison, I used looper rounds a lot to make free phone calls. I like the irony of skirting the phone system from prison.

Oh, I had lots and lots of hangy-panky I was doing in prison. I was monitoring the radio communication between the prison guards and the staff, and whenever there was an inspection coming, we would monitor their radio communication. And I had an old funky radio. I bought that radio from the PX at the prison. They have a little prison store. I found the radio I bought it using my prison account so to speak $34 something like that was just a regular AMFM radio. I modified the radio because it turns out that the frequencies that were using for the police were not scrambled.

And I just modified the FM part of the band to receive where the frequencies are, which is 150 megahertz. The radio ended at 108 megahertz, so all I had to do is just take a few coils, take a few windings off the coil, and was able to tune to 150 megahertz. And I was able to tune into the R-Guard's frequencies, and I was able to tune into the our guards frequencies and I was monitoring them.

Oh my God. Just monitoring the communication. Of the prison guards. Wow. I think you saw me roll my eyes though at some point when you were listening to that. You did. Well I think whenever there's like techno speak.

Well I just sort of, I zone out. I do too, but I will say that like I was tracking that and like so the radio went up to whatever it was, 108. I've already forgotten megahertz. But he talked about it so casually. He's just able to unspool a couple of wires. Yeah, coils. He could go up to 150.

He could just spy on the guards. Yeah, but that's so interesting also, just connecting it to my dad. We set it up saying this doesn't have anything to do with my dad, but the spying on the guards, the deep need to listen in on other people's conversations. And the ability to do so. I mean, like if you handed me or you a radio,

we would not have any clue how to manipulate it so that we could listen in on a higher frequency. Right. But I think your dad would. Oh yeah, for sure. For something that really resonates in terms of Richard Jacobs as well. And now, a word from our sponsor.

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on your order and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash destroy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That's qince.com slash destroy to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash destroy. And then so then there was another aspect of the John Draper interview that we wanted to speaking of because like this idea of listening in and like connection is when he was talking about connection is when he was talking about how he would travel around in order to go to towns that had phone systems that he could mess with. This is the phone freak lifestyle. It's funny, my dad had an interest in ham radio as well. He had a ham radio license and was very involved in that.

What do you think is the, is there a connection between all this stuff in terms of like an interest in ham radio and interest in phone systems like what do you how do you tie that? Together it's all it's all communication Let's just let's just talk about the fundamental thing of communication Okay, and sometimes I would use systems that were so remote I go at phone trips I found out that Blaine Washington had a most interesting phone system set up And so I spent a lot of time in Blaine Washington freezing my ass off, because it was like in December. It's cold up there.

Hold on, hold on. So you were doing this just for knowledge? Yeah, I was. There was no other goal? I discovered it in Blaine Washington. This was discovered by one of my Seattle friends. Had a very interesting phone system. He dialed 7-1, flash look, switch down, and you're connected to a trunk.

But you had to do with the rotary dial on the phone, the pay phone, the rotary dial. Hold on. Hold on a second. He dialed 7-1, he dialed 7-1, and then dialed 015, and then I dropped into a trunk, and that trunk would be in Vancouver. All right. Hold on a second. And I called the area code and number,

and I would get a big call. I didn't even have to use a blue book. John, John, John, hold on. You're telling me that you would take road trips in your Volkswagen van to some place in Washington state, just to- Freezing your ass off. Just to make free-

Not just Washington state. But this one Blaine Washington place. Because it had a cool phone system that you wanted to take advantage of? Like, that's it? That's it. I would record it, of course, and then I would come back and play the recording back to my friends. There was another time when I went to Death Valley. And Death Valley had an interesting...

All the phone numbers would begin with 57633 and then the last four digits would be the number. But if you replace 33 with 99, that's a payphone. I said to myself, why don't I just see if I can do 33 instead of 99? Okay, wait a second. I'm having a... I want to say one thing real quick. Which is that what is occurring to me, John, is that your behavior here going to these different towns, Death Valley, Blaine, Washington, to take advantage of the phone system, it's like what other young guys might have been doing where they had some girl that they wanted to sleep with in different towns.

Except for you, it was phone systems. Yeah, the phone was the girl. That's right. It came in hurran, it came in hurr-ably handy. In what way? There was a situation where Volkswagen vans break down a lot. And my Volkswagen van broke down in a place called Ballarat, California. It's a great town name.

Yeah, and I had already phone freaked Ballarat, and I knew how to make phone calls from there. So I was able to call AAA, which every call would have been long distance. I was able to stay on the line for a long, long time, give the details of my car, how to get there, and all that stuff. And there's no GPS, there's no cell phones back then. And so I'd give them a mile marker where my car was stuck at

and try to get somebody out there to help me out. Of course, by the way, you wouldn't have been stuck out there had you not already been driving somewhere, probably to play with their phones. It was all kind of a self-perpetuating cycle. It's a chicken or a phone. I mean, I think that's so interesting. Because instead of having relationships with people,

he has relationships with phone systems. Yes, like he goes, he's excited to go to Blaine, Washington because they have a cool phone system there. That he can mess with and just screw around with and get free calls with, right? Traveling all around the country to do that. You're right, though. He talks about these phones as if they are, like, companions or they're sources of...

You know, there's something sad about that, right? Is that technology is a proxy, and what he gets from that connection as a proxy for real human relationships, which is something that I think my dad fits well with my dad's whole thing as well. That's what I was just gonna say. Your dad, one of his main relationships in his life

from youth to death was technology. Maybe his longest term relationship in his entire life because one of the things that we've been trying to do in this podcast is interview friends of Richard to get to know him. And there have been friends of his, but they're pretty much always short-term relationships. Right. Or they will end eventually.

Yes, exactly. Like, nothing that's sustained. Exactly. And that reminds me of the friends that... John and Jane, quote-unquote. The friends that we did interview. Exactly. And the way that John talks about the end of his friendship with your dad resonated with me.

It was something we were not able to include in last week's episode, but maybe we can play that for you now as well. David, I wonder if there was any sadness that you felt about your friend. Yeah, of course. He was my best friend. Wow.

You know, I think what you went through with my dad, this feeling of loss, this feeling that you can't be connected to him because of his difficulties. I don't know if it makes you feel any better or worse, but I went through that exact same experience. I didn't have a real conversation with my dad in the last four years of his life because I couldn't, I just couldn't do it anymore. When I got married,

you know, he was starting to do things like, you know, he was starting to kind of betray my wife's privacy and it was getting too much. Yeah, there's a loss there, I'm sure. I absolutely have felt very badly about what he has done. I feel very badly about losing him as a close friend. Yeah, I can understand. But I did not want to be part of that. Man. It's sad. You can hear the be part of that. Man.

It's sad. You can hear the sadness in his voice. Yes. This real loss, which I get, obviously. I get it because, I mean, they were childhood friends. Yeah. I can relate to having a childhood friend. That betrays you.

That betrays you by putting you on a podcast and dragging you through his dirty laundry. Yeah. But no, I mean, and dragging you through his dirty laundry. But no, I mean, like, you are obviously not Richard, even one one hundredth of Richard, but in terms of like the behavior that John observed in Richard and really wanted to disconnect from,

but he loved your dad. You can tell that he loved your dad and he lost that relationship. And your dad lost so, well, I'm saying so many relationships. I don't know if that's true. He lost the friendships that he had in his life. Yeah, by the end, I mean, I don't remember him, when I was growing up, you know how you have your parents,

oh they have friends over, they'll go out with friends. Not a single memory of him going, hey I'm gonna hang out with my friends tonight, or anybody coming over, like nothing, zero. There was no friends in his life. And you know what's interesting about that, to bring it back to you, is that you are the opposite of that.

In that you have a lot of friends. You have friends, you and I have been friends since elementary school, you and I have other friends that we've been friends with since elementary school. And long time friends. And even in my collaborations professionally, like obviously like you and I, but then I also, I do this two man improv show

in Los Angeles, usually at the ground links called the Understudies, where I've been, we've been doing for like 14 years, which is me and my partner, Seth, doing this, just working together for a very long, I very much value sustained relationships. And in fact, it's just occurring to me that when that doesn't happen, it's really painful to me. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, you, sometimes I make fun of you for your FOMO, which I stand by, by the way,

but it is occurring to me now that a part of that, it's not necessarily experiences that you're worried about missing out on, but it's about your friends and spending social times with other people. Yes, yes, yes. Like, you, yeah, like, even, you are very good

at keeping those relationships going. Even people that we've worked with in the past, like you're always actively texting them. I am someone who I have a good amount of really good friends and I have people that I keep up with. There's other people in my life where, you know, we don't see each other or talk for a long time

and when we do again, it's great, but I have no problem not talking to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For years. I'm totally fine. Maybe you prefer it. That's sort of the difference between introverts and extroverts in a way, but you're an extrovert, I think.

I am in many ways, but at the same time, I think maybe if we're both extroverts. Not as extreme. I think you're more extreme, and I wonder, I don't know, like you grew up with this dad who was isolated. Do you feel satisfied by the friendships in your life? That's a big question.

I mean, not as much as of late because as a father of young children, the last seven years has been the sort of least amount of social interaction that I've had in my adult life. When your kids grow up and hear this, they're gonna hear you blaming them for the loss of your friendships. They've ruined my friendships.

Yeah, the pain that you're feeling because of them. No, it's not pain, but it's just like a recognition of like, oh, I don't have the same kind of social calendar nearly that I had. It's okay sometimes on a Saturday night to stay home and watch a movie. Yeah, we had this experience recently where you were going to have drinks with an old friend,

and you had asked me several times, and I kept on being like, yeah, I'm going to see if I can do it. And you're like, this is not improv. You can say no. That's right. Well, I have a theory about you, which is from your improv training, it just ties into your life so

much. Oh, it does, 100%. It is the spiritual backbone of my day to day. Do you know that there are times where I am, I'm like trying to orchestrate things so that you have to say no. What? Yeah, this is, I don't know if we ever talked about this, but I've talked about this with my wife,

where like you're such a, like a addicted to yes, this is not major, it's just little moments because I know this about you, where I've talked about this with my wife, where you're such a, like a, addicted to yes, this is not major, it's just little moments, because I know this about you, where I'll be like, oh, I'm gonna make it to the dance. Give me an example. I mean, well, you just brought one up, there was a hangout, and I could tell you you didn't want to go, and I kind of just wanted

you to say no, because you don't. What you'll do is you'll be like, well, let me see, what, you know, remind me later, or let me see what I can do later. That's also like a very L.A. thing, don't. What you'll do is you'll be like, well, let me see. You know, remind me later. Let me see what I can do later. It's also like a very LA thing, don't you think? Yeah, that's fair. But I mean, I know a lot of people that are just like, no. And they're totally comfortable saying, no, can't make it.

But you know, so it's things like that. There's a lot of hangout types of things. Like if ever there's a time when someone proposes a hangout, and I know that you have something else and you're not going to be able to do it, I do get a little jolt of excitement that oh, Danny's gonna have to say no to this. Oh, interesting. Is that because deep down you think it's healthy

for me to say no? I think so. You're rooting for me to be more healthy? Is that what you're saying? Yes, I think that that's a generous interpretation of it and not just like a, I hope that it's not just like a sadistic quality of watching you squirm and saying no, no, I think that's what it is.

I think it's that I feel that you, I remember your manic 20s and 30s and this sort of like desperation to like say yes and do everything. Yeah. And I do think that that balance is better. Yeah, there is a quote from Keith Johnstone who is kind of an improv god,

who said that, I'm gonna paraphrase, but like, you can say yes or you can say no to things, and if you say yes, you're rewarded by the adventures you go on, and if you say no, you're rewarded by the safety you attain. There is something valuable, there's something you get, a gift you give yourself by saying no to. That's enough about our friendship.

Our friendship, good lord. We can't talk about, you know, it's, we can go on and on and no one wants to hear that. I could complain. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsor. Darren, you know this about me. I'm an awful cook.

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You know good for you healthy meals with with limited process ingredients. I made a pesto flatbread meal I made that too. I meant my daughter. Oh, then you know how great it was. Yes, it was fantastic. And the other thing is, my daughter, it was like, the steps were so easy, my four-year-old daughter could do them with me. And the whole family enjoyed it. Amazing. Yeah. So if you want an experience like that, go to greenchef.com slash destroy 50 and use code destroy 50 for 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next two months. That's code DESTROY50 at greenchef.com slash destroy 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20%

off your next two months. Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. So recently, we were interviewing your brother's wife for a future episode. Yes. Beth. And, Beth, and she has a theory about something, about the nose jobs that we talked about a few episodes ago that your mother and your father got after they got married.

Yeah, let's hear what she has to say. And it should be noted that Beth is a doctor, so she actually has some expertise on the subject. Maybe he actually did not get his nose job. What? He went through, like, the rigmarole of, like, his and her nose jobs and stuff like that to get her to get a second nose job of his preference.

Oh, my god. That is unbelievable. I mean, he has this whole story, according to Sandy, that there was some medicine he was going to take to prevent scarring. Yeah. And that he recommended she take it and she decided not to.

And so after, she says after the nose jobs that he didn't have any scarring. So it's possible that that was because he didn't actually get the nose job. That's what she told us. Okay. Okay. So this is coming back. So I feel like we've talked about it before. And she was like, asking me if I know anything about that. And I was like, I don't know, like, that does not, I'm no plastic surgeon, but I'm pretty sure you get bruised. Like even if you like, you know, scar tissue, like you still are bruised. And so, and I'm, she can tell the details of the story, but my understanding is, you

know, she had had a nose job and was like content with her nose and he wanted her to get a second one and she didn't want to. And it was kind of like, well, let's get it together. We'll like go together. That's exactly right. And they went to New York with this special doctor who I think may have been a family member of your mom's. Yes that's right. And if I remember correctly and you can let your mom confirm this I also think that this is the same family member who didn't tell his wife she was having twins until they were born. Oh, I didn't know that. What? That's crazy. That's like that uncle, I forgot his name,

uncle something, uncle whatever. So confirm it might be, so anyway, so like shenanigans with this guy, I'm like, yeah, like he maybe did sham surgery and felt like whatever back in the 70s that it was appropriate to lie to your mom so that your dad could get your mom to get the nose job. He preferred.

What? If he could keep from his wife that she was having twins when he knew full well it was happening before the beings were born. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. God damn it. I just feel like this is a perfect example

of me continually being surprised by my dad. Like I took that story, Darren and I talked about it in an episode Where you know we were talking about how like oh well at least he was gonna go get it with her remember Darren That's what we yeah, that's what we that was our whole thing and but but now it makes so much sense I'm like I'm like shocked that we didn't even that we didn't see it well cuz you Danny usually you will have the the suspicious edge No, sniff it out, but that we took at face value. Oh My god my god That is that it's just my mind have the suspicious edge of- I know. You sniff it out. But that we took at face value. Oh my God.

Oh my God. That is, it's just my mind is having trouble processing that. You know what, we have to talk to my mom about this as soon as possible. Let's do it right now. Hi, hello. So, mom. Yeah.

Before we get into episode six, there's something that Darren and I wanted to talk to you about, which is that, you, before we get into episode six, there's something that Darren and I wanted to talk to you about, which is that, you know, we... We had a conversation with Beth. Yes. You know, in a previous episode, we talked about the nose jobs that you and dad had on your honeymoon in New York,

right after you were married. Yeah. So... Beth had this thought or theory that perhaps Richard did not actually get a nose job, but in fact said that he was going to get and that he did get a nose job in order to convince you to get a nose job, which was kind of a stunning thought to us. What do you think about that? That's not true. And how do you know that?

Because we both went to the doctor, and the doctor was going to do the surgery with both of us. He was in the hospital. When he had the surgery, my dad and my uncle went to visit him in the hospital room, in the hospital. Let me just stir out a few pieces of evidence that I think Beth brought up that I think are essential here to context. Number one, the doctor was a family member of yours, right?

No, not the doctor who did the surgery. She was confused about that. So the doctor who did the surgery, you didn't know. You didn't know. I didn't know him. The doctor who, my uncle is also a doctor, and he got mad that Richard was wanting me to take this medicine.

How do you know for a fact that Richard was in the hospital? Because you yourself were in the hospital, right? Yeah, you guys were in different rooms, quote unquote. Yes, yeah. Like, is it Richard in the hospital, right? Yeah, you guys were in different rooms, quote unquote. Yes, yeah. Like did you visit Richard in the hospital room? No, but my dad did and so did my uncle. But he also didn't have any bruises because he took this quote unquote medicine.

Yes. So there was no physical evidence that he had a nose job. Well, the only evidence was he kinda had like bloodshot eyes. I noticed that. But as far as not having he didn't have but nothing on the nose and looking at photographs, this doesn't seem to be any difference. No, there is. Yeah, I know. OK. Well, and then also and then also speaking of your uncle,

was this the the man who didn't tell his wife that she was having twins until they were born? Yes. Oh, yeah, well, it's just, it's noteworthy because there's clearly a culture of keeping things from women, and obviously that's a time period when that was more common,

that this man didn't even tell his own wife. I mean, she knew she was pregnant, but she didn't know she was having twins. Yeah. Isn't it possible that own wife. I mean, she knew she was pregnant, but she didn't know she was having twins. Yeah. Isn't it possible that your uncle and your dad, you know, I don't know, could have been keeping this, keeping Richard's secret from you? No.

Why not? Because it just didn't, I just, I know he had it also. How do you know that? Mom, will you do me a favor? Do you have your phone with you? Yes. Will you Google, are you bruised after a nose job? And then click on-

Well, that's if you don't take the medicine. Hold on. And then click on images. And I want you to tell me what you see. All right, wait a second. I just have to figure out how to do it. I'm going to do that too. Listeners, join us.

Wait a second. I mean, it doesn't say what the image is. It just comes up different things. You know what? Forget it. Look, Mom, when I'm trying to- Let me tell you what it looks like. Here's one that says, nose job bruises, minimizing bruises after rhinoplasty.

Right, but that's fine. But look at the images. If you look at the images of people that have had nose jobs, it is significant bruising. This is in 2024, by the way. First of all, I know that because I had it done twice. Right. So I know that. So there is no possible way that there's no miracle medicine that you could have taken

in 1970 whatever that would have minimized to that extent the bruising on dad's face. Listen, mom, what I'm curious about right now is given the information here, which is what we have, which is that you didn't see him in the hospital, okay? You say your dad and Hyman... He came up to see me. Okay, but you didn't see him in his room. No. You don't know, and all you saw was the aftermatch when she had minimal bruising, which like your uncle and your dad could have seen that too. I really feel like we're an investigative podcast right now. And what I'm trying to understand is why are you, like, given the totality of Dad's behavior,

it would not be a stretch to say that he lied about this and did not get a nose job. Why is this the thing you're going to the mattresses over that, like, you are so dead set that he did this? Like, everything in his life, this whole podcast, is about these lies and manipulations. Like why is this the thing that you're like? It would almost be that it would be an outlier if he were honest here, you know, Sandy?

Like the weird thing is if he actually did the thing, the more normal thing for him would be to lie about it. Okay, that's true, but I trust that my dad and my uncle would not lie to me. Well, no, I don't think that they would lie to you either. But isn't it possible that they went and saw dad somewhere in the hospital, and they were like, boy, you don't have that much bruising.

It's like, yeah, you know, I took this medicine. You know, oh, yeah, we heard about that. That's dangerous medicine. You shouldn't take that. Well, I took it and it minimized my bru... Like, dad was very, very convincing. Why couldn't it have been that he convinced them, just like he convinced you, that he had this nose job? Well, because my uncle,

I would assume he would have checked it out. Except that your uncle, He's a doctor. As we have previously revealed in our evidentiary hearing, that withheld information to his own wife about her having twins. Why would somebody like that, why is it a huge stretch to say somebody like that

might not be on the up and up? I have no idea because I had just believed my aunt, that the only reason I say this is because I believe my, you know, my uncle and my dad. No further questions, Your Honor. Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Mom, like, you know, to believe my uncle and my dad. They would be- No further questions, Your Honor. Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is, mom,

like, you know, we're trying to end cycles here. You know what I mean? And like, one of the things that we've clearly been talking about a lot in terms of your relationship with dad is like, you were very trusting of this man that did not deserve your trust. And maybe this is a moment in which you say,

oh, well, it could be something different. Look, I don't wanna- All right, it could. I guess it could be something different, but then I would have to think completely different about my dad and my uncle. Yeah, it's like this is unanswerable, obviously. I think for me, the takeaway from all of this

is that we are all still, at times, accepting what Richard said at face value. Like Sandy, when you first told us this nose story, that we are all still at times accepting what Richard said at face value. Like Sandy, when you first told us this nose job story, it didn't even occur to us. To either of us, yeah. That that could be not true. And you know what, it might be true.

It's possible that he did have a nose job alongside you, but it's just an eye-opening thing for me again to be like, I have to filter everything this guy says through the, but really? That's the other thing to be like, I have to filter everything this guy says through the, but really? That's the other thing is that like my dad makes you question everything. Everything. That's true. Nothing, nothing, as you just said, nothing can be taken at face value.

And nothing. No super fact. I have another story that kind of shows that. Well, this is the perfect forum for that, so let's do it. Yes, okay. So when my uncle, this is not the uncle in New York. My mother's brother passed away in Kansas City. Okay, your mother's brother, got it. And I was still married to dad, and I was gonna go to Kansas City for the funeral,

but Richard wasn't gonna go, I think he doesn't go where my dad is because they had an argument, so he didn't go. So I't gonna go, I think he doesn't go where my dad is because they had an argument, so he didn't go. So I was gonna go, and then Richard, a lot of times Richard would, this is another problem he had, he would talk about how sick he was all the time. I am so sick. Did he ever do that with you?

Oh yeah, his failing health, yes, yes, yes. You're talking about general failing health, not like I have a cold. No, no, it was real, like, if I knew, so, yes, yes. You're trying to general failing health, not like I have a cold. No, no, it was really like, if I knew, so this is what happened. I wanted to go to the funeral. He told me I should not go to the funeral. He didn't want me to leave him alone.

He said, if you knew how sick he was, I would not go to the funeral. So I didn't go to the funeral and boy, everybody was mad at me. You didn't go. Oh wow, you didn't go. No. Mom, I didn't know that that's where this was gonna go.

I didn't know that you would stay home. I stayed home because he nagged me and he nagged me. So I didn't go. And then everybody was mad at me in Kansas City. So to this day, I have a problem with funerals. What do you mean have a problem? Sometimes I think somebody passes away. Should I go to that funeral or not?

I mean, I'll worry about them making the right decision. Oh, wow. That was a really traumatic experience for you. Yes. Let me just sort of say a few things about this. This is really interesting. So number one, I am not familiar with that behavior from Dad. I don't remember him doing that with me at all.

He would often complain generally about how sick he was, like how many ailments he had in general as a way of making me feel guilty or trying to get me to do something. But it wasn't like, oh, I'm really sick right now. Right? And then, but in terms of what you're saying, like it's so clear to me what was going on. Right? It's a similar thing to when he was trying to get your bridesmaid disinvited to your wedding. It's about choosing between him and somebody else that you care about. And this was a situation which somebody in your family had died, and you going to that was like,

it was a zero-sum game. It was either you loved them or you loved him. He wanted the attention from you. That's right. That's what he did. That's what he said. He wanted the attention from you. That's right. That's what he did. That's what he said. He kind of laid it on the line. But you didn't know, you didn't realize what was going on at the time.

You believed that he was that sick. Is that what you're saying? Well, I believed, I think I believed that he was, I couldn't understand how he was sick physically, but I think I thought maybe he was sick mentally. Oh, oh, so you're saying that, but why would that make you stay home from the funeral? I don't know, he just, he talked me into it.

I have a guess, which is that when my dad wanted something, he was so relentless about it, that you would just be like, you know what, my life would be easier if I just went along with what he says because otherwise he's gonna cause me too many problems. And that's the easier choice. Rather than facing his wrath and doing the opposite of what he wanted.

So it almost didn't matter whether you believed him or not when he was sick, because he was probably making your life hell in the moment. Wow, that's really interesting. So, wait, Mom, you brought up that story because, like, isn't that story's existence just further proof that it's possible that he did not have a nose job soon after your wedding? Like, isn't that what you're saying?

Yes. Well, I think Sandy brought you were bringing this, the story of your uncle's funeral up as evidence of the fact that you can't believe anything he says because he's always lying to manipulate. Right. And I think that that's why we don't know. Maybe the nose job was the exception and maybe he actually did it.

But how do we? Will you agree, witness, that it is a possibility that he did not have a nose job? Have we gotten to that point? Yes, I would agree that it's a possibility. I just can't understand how come my uncle and my dad said he did get a nose job. Because dad was a master manipulator.

Yeah. He could have convinced them somehow, some way that that was the case. I'm glad we got here, but I wish the lawyering wasn't quite so aggressive, Danny. It's a lot of badgering of the witness. And I think that that's bad for her. Well, I would like to tell the witness that I love her.

Does that make it better? I know. I's bad for her. Well, I would like to tell the witness that I love her. Does that make her better? I know. I love the lawyer, too. When your celebration of life is prepaid in advance, it becomes a gift from you to your family later because no one should have to plan for a loss while they're experiencing one. Paying in advance protects your loved ones

and gives you the peace of mind you deserve. Let us help you plan every detail with professionalism and compassion. We are your local Dignity Memorial provider. Find us at DignityMemorial.ca. The housing crisis in the GTA has reached a critical point with more than two and three residents being affected. Reporting that almost nine million Canadians are living in food insecure households. Over one million people in the GTA now live below the poverty line.

... just out today. Mental health support is the number one reason people are calling 211 first. At United Way, we wake up to a different alarm every day. Help us end poverty and build a better GTA any way we can. Donate today at unitedwaygt.org. Okay, well listen, Mom, let's talk about episode 106 and your thoughts on the episode, which was about the first half of Dad's career. What were your takeaways? The thing, you know, about the advertising with the lawyers, I mean, I was just so, for lawyers, I was just so proud of him in that.

And I really did want to go to the, see or hear the Supreme Court. And I even said to him, what do you care what these people, what your neighbors think or what anybody else thinks? You did this and you have a right to go in here and hear it. And he said, well then when I get home there's going to be all these newspaper reporters there and they're going to ask me about selling the TV, the TV case. And that's what he was really afraid of. The reporters and the negative publicity that would have happened. Yes, yeah, yeah. So this way he was hiding out from the reporters and he would give up going to see the...

Well, I would have thought it. Oh man. I would have gone. Yeah, the opportunity to be in the Supreme Court as your case is being argued is once in a lifetime. It's so interesting because as far as narcissists go, he's so complicated because even in the Supreme Court case, he did not want real public credit for it.

It's not his name, right? It's his initials. Yeah. And we've talked a lot about his privacy and how much that mattered to him. That was his privacy. That's why he never wanted to put his name on anything. Yes.

Yeah. And that's just what's so complicated to me about him and just even my conception of what a narcissist is, because he obviously had a lot of grievances and had a lot of ego, but he didn't want public adulation. However, he was afraid here of maybe it's his privacy exploding or this sort of public criticism. He was very much afraid of that.

Like that's what kept him from even going to enjoy listening to the Supreme Court. What a bummer. What a bummer that he didn't get to go to that. I know. All right, awesome. Any other, did anything else come to mind? Okay, when you talked about his dad, you know, how he felt like he... About grandpa, about Sidney? Yeah, about Sidney yeah grant yes about Sydney at one time when I was married to Richard at early on his dad got some

kind of an award you know for doing something and Richard told me he thought he never could measure up to his dad interesting yeah I mean that's really interesting that he had that sense of insight and self-awareness. I wonder if at some point, Dad, when things started to go south, like when you get this, like, you know, we got disbarred or got arrested, if he started to think, well, any chance that I did have is now totally gone. And he just sort of like abandoned that goal completely

and went fully on into the dark side. I mean, what makes sense about that to me, Danny, and what's so interesting about all this ambition or like this high bar that your dad was aiming for is the Richard Jacobs that I remember did not strike me as an ambitious man. No, no, no, no. All of these revelations about him wanting,

even wanting to measure up to Sydney Jacobs or, you, no, no. All of these revelations about him even wanting to measure up to Sydney Jacobs or his cousin. Only ambitious about causing destruction. That's it. I never saw even a hint of actual professional ambition or the desire to make something of himself. So something broke somewhere along the way. Something broke.

Because evidently there was ambition early on. Yeah, it's the opposite side of the coin of that ambition, though, is like, my dad was still ambitious in a way, but just fully on in the dark side. Yeah, it's interesting. It's like hearing this and thinking about Richard trying to get in his head. Obviously, he was married to you, but then after that, it's kind of a lonely existence that he had.

Yeah. You know, alienating all these people. You know, I just try to think about, think about in the 90s and the 2000s, what his Saturday nights were like. Well, it's occurring to me that what must it have been like to go through your life at that point in which the vast majority of your daily human interactions are confrontational in nature, rather than friendly in nature.

Often with teenage employees at various stores. Either with somebody in a... Or corporations. Corporations or other lawyers, but you are constantly fighting. Or your own son. Yeah, that's the place that he was in. I remember another thing. So there was a time when he decided to be in a law firm with somebody, like he wanted to be in another law firm

and not pay for himself, you know, like he did on that last one and then be by himself in a law firm and he had to pay all that money, which Sid and Sylvia paid. So this time he went to a law firm and they, I guess they interviewed him and he was, he didn't work for them,

but he was renting a space. And he came home from work one day and he told me he got in a fight, a physical fight with the lawyer, one of the lawyers in the law firm. And it was over electronics. It was, it was over rewiring stuff in their office. You know what's so funny?

We just interviewed a lawyer named George Johnson, who shared office space with him around this time and told us a story about how Richard got into, and he didn't say a physical fight, but he said that he had a confrontation with the lawyer. One of the lawyers in the firm that they were renting from. Who discovered Dad was sort of trying to rewire, and he claimed he was trying to just add a phone line.

But the ceiling had been opened up and there were all these wires hanging from the ceiling, and that Richard got in, and it's so funny that you just had that memory now. But you remember he got into a physical fight with that lawyer? Yes. Wow.

Yes. He came home and he said, I can't believe it. That lawyer hit me. Whoa. And we got into a physical fight. And then when he got out of the law firm, like he was going to leave the law firm, we went over there on a Sunday.

He went in the lawyer's files files and he was taking pictures. He was making copies of different, how to draft different lawsuits. Like his own, not his lawsuits, how to draft, how so-and-so would draft his lawsuits. So he was making copies of all their, his papers. The papers from other clients. Why would he wanna see how other lawyers were drafting?

So he would know how to do it. So he would know how, I mean I guess so he would, I don't know really. You think he could figure out how to do it. Well here's my question, which is, is that what he told you? Yeah, yeah, I saw him getting in the lawsuits, I saw him getting the files. And you said, what are you doing? He's like, oh I just want to know how they draft the lawsuits. That feels like a total lie. He's probably just getting information. He's looking for something, getting information that he might be able to use. Maybe so. Yeah, I thought he was copying documents, which was bad enough. Right, for sure. But you can sort of squint and see, oh, well, he's just trying to be a better lawyer.

Oh, this is about self-improvement. And this brings us back to the nose job thing, Mom, which is that you cannot trust anything that he said. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Man. Yeah. Wild. Case closed.

OK. Well, the next episode is about the second half of Dad's career, which, if you can believe it, there's a second half. Is there anything? Career is sort of a loose word to use to describe the second half of it as well, obviously, because he's not really supposed to be practicing the law anymore, and yet he manages to find himself

in court quite often. Is there anything that you want to say about that period? Well, you know what? When you were talking about how he gave, like he lost and he kind of gave up on his law, his ambitions. On his law, ambitions. And then you were saying, and now we're

going to do the second half. And I thought, I don't really know what he did after that. Well, I guess you're excited to hear this episode next week. Yes, I am. Maybe, will you tell our listeners that, because they're about to hear a little clip, a little preview clip, maybe you could set that up episode next week. Yes I am. Maybe will you tell our listeners that because they're about to hear a little clip a little preview clip maybe you could set that up and tell them that here you know here's here's a clip from next week's

episode something like that. Here's a clip from next week's episode. So I let this cigarette get a really long ash on it and when I went to make a jerk like this, the ash fell on Mr. Jacob's hand. I'm not going to go anywhere. Ow! Ow, that bug! Oh my god. It burned me. Did you see that?

You just hit me. Did you see that, honey? He hit me. That one's so to you right. He hit me. Then your dad socks me in the arm and takes off running. That's when my ride went and got the police. And when you say he took off running, you you're saying like, like full on sprinting

or like? I don't know. They found him in the arcade. There was two witnesses. I had a BJC nurse who had witnessed this and a St. Louis city fireman. But Mr. Jacobs would have been arrested regardless that night because Mr. Jacobs had an outstanding warrant in Lidu. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.

And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at Iknowrichardjacobsatgmail.com. Also, I'm going to be honest with you guys, we need all the help we can get. So if you want to support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon at Patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff. We're gonna share pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons. Also, please find us on our social, specifically Instagram, at How To Destroy Everything. You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs.

Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.