How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy a Therapy Session

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren sit down for a chat with a licensed psychologist to get his take on all things Richard Jacobs. In a wide-ranging conversation, they are finally able to get some answers to many of their questions about what exactly may have been going on inside Richard's mind. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey! Hello, everybody. Hello, world. Welcome to another episode of How to Destroy Everything. How have we ever done this in stereo for a little while? It felt good. It felt really good. It did.

It felt right. I am Danny Jacobs. And I'm Darren Grotsky. And this is a podcast about my narcissistic father who died in 2015 and just, just, just kind of destroyed, left a wake of destruction in his wake, a wake of destruction in his wake. I think that's right. You know, whenever you do that,

I'm noticing that you mentioned that he died in 2015. It's like a part of you is reassuring yourself that he's not still around. Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I don't know why I do that. I guess because I wanna make sure everybody's expectations are set that like, we're not gonna be like, all right, here's my dad

and the guys guys guess what? He is no longer. He is no more. So we're coming off an episode where we really got into kind of some therapeutic aspects of this for the first time. My therapist was on our last episode. Your mom and dad going to counseling. My mom and dad, yeah, we portrayed a scene when they went to counseling. Your mom accidentally becoming a therapist for a moment for someone who was having some kind of a breakdown? Yeah, that's right. And so we thought today, what we would do

is kind of stay in that space a little bit. And first of all, I think one of the things that we wanted to talk about up top is just what this process has been like making this show and in terms of the feedback that we've gotten from people. Yeah you know what one thing I would say by the way in terms of feedback is that podcasting is weird. You know like when you make films you take your films you show people your movies and you get feedback you talk to people you hear how you know how they're

liking it. You make a podcast we've been working on this thing now for over a year, and you're kind of like in this tunnel. You're in a void. Silo. Yeah, you're just like doing it, and there isn't an obvious avenue or outlet for feedback. However, we have created this email address. I know Richard Jacobs at gmail.com.

And then of course we have Instagram and Patreon as well. But like, we've heard from so many people over the course of making this show. And I have to say that like, this has been a really, really gratifying and surprising aspect of making this show. Because so many people have reached out, not just to say that they've enjoyed the show, which

they have, and we don't mind hearing it all, but to say that the show is really mattering to them. And that they've found, through your, Danny, vulnerability and your journey, they've found a kind of healing in their own journeys with their own narcissists. Yeah, it's been really interesting. We've gotten people that have been talking about, again, their own journeys with their own narcissists. Yeah, it's been really interesting. We've gotten people that have been talking about it again, the other own experiences. And one of the things is they've also been able

to provide insights to me. A lot of times they'll be like, oh, I actually think I have a different theory about why your dad did this or that. And have opened my eyes to possibilities. In fact, somebody just emailed the other day and was like, have you considered that your dad might also have been on the spectrum?

Yes. And I just thought, oh, I'd never, I'd literally never considered that before, but I'm sure it's possible. Yeah, well, in some of the emails, they're making suggestions that have actually impacted some of the things that we've done in the episodes we're working on.

There's an interactivity there that has influenced the show. Yeah. And again, it's also just, one of the things that's just so surprising to me, although in retrospect now it makes sense, your dad was so specific and so extreme, so outsized, that I just did not think that people would see themselves and their journeys.

Because obviously they're not the same as your dad. And some of them may be outsized in their own way. The narcissists in their lives or the people who have destroyed things in their lives. But they're all very different. But I guess, you know, the lesson is always like, in that specificity, you do actually still see things that are resonant and relevant to your own self. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So there's been that kind of therapeutic side of this,

which I think both for our audience, hopefully, and also for us, as this has been going on. But then also, we thought, you know what? It's about time that we brought somebody in who really knows what the hell they're talking about. Who actually knows, because here we are playing amateur psychologists, and we don't know what the hell is going on. So we spoke with a psychologist who specializes in narcissists and in trauma.

And so just a note about what you're about to hear. We had literally an hour. We had like a session because he had another, he had a client, a real client that he had to go to at the top of the hour. So it was kind of a therapy session for us in length as well. And also, like if you hear me in particular, as the interview goes on, he'll say something like, super enlightening. I'll be like, oh, interesting.

Another question I have, because I started to get concerned about the time and like whether we were going to get everything in, because we had so much to ask him. Just another manic Danny. Yeah. So here we go. OK, so I'm Dr. Josh Murmeli. I'm a licensed psychologist based in Beverly Hills. And I would say my practice really focuses on empowering folks to reclaim their authentic selves through courage, self-disclosure, emotional risk takingtaking I'm big on. I have a pretty no-nonsense, but also

compassionate approach. And I really work a lot with personality disorders, including narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, I would say are the two most commonly treated conditions. And I work a lot with. Folks who have experienced what I refer to as contextual trauma. So not necessarily single incidents like a rape or surviving a fire, but surviving many fires throughout their lives, growing up in family systems that were far from nurturing, let's say. Well, that sounds very apropos to our podcast so we really appreciate... Quite relevant. Before we get started Dr. Josh I just wanted to ask, and maybe you

can't answer this question but I've been wondering it for a long time, can you tell me just what the hell is wrong with Danny? I mean honestly. I don't know that we have enough time today. In all seriousness I do have one question that maybe we should have figured out the answer to this question long ago, but better late than never. And that is, you mentioned narcissistic personality disorder. Can you provide like a basic definition of what that even is? Absolutely. So, you know, narcissistic personality disorder is a fairly complex psychological condition. And it's mostly characterized by

a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, a consistent need for admiration, and importantly, a lack of empathy for others. It significantly impacts an individual's interpersonal functioning, their self-image, and their emotional regulation, their capacity to self-soothe. Narcissistic personality disorder, or NPD, historically fell under what was referred to as Cluster B of personality disorders, which also included borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, and interestingly, antisocial personality disorders. And all of these conditions are marked by dramatic, emotional, and erratic behaviors. So individuals with narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder, present with a grandiose sense of self-importance, a preoccupation with fantasies

of unlimited success, power, beauty, brilliance. They believe they're special. They can only be understood by or should only associate with other special or high status people. They require excessive admiration. A deep sense of entitlement is pervasive. They're also interpersonally exploitative. They take advantage of others for personal gain. And then again, the lacking of empathy is a huge piece. There's an unwillingness to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. And you say that this is obviously a complicated condition. Is one of the ways in which it's complicated

that people who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder don't necessarily have all of the qualities you just mentioned, but they have some number of them? Yeah, that's a great point indeed. And I would say rarely does someone with any mental health diagnosis present with all of the symptoms. So there's that piece. And typically, narcissists tend to not come to therapy because they believe there's nothing wrong with them.

They have this tremendous ego, this pattern of grandiosity, what they will come to therapy for is a sense of not being adequately admired or appreciated in their relationships, or anxiety around losing their narcissistic supplies, you know, other figures in their lives who provide them with their narcissistic fuel. Yeah, that it's interesting because as you talked through those characteristics, I was obviously in my head thinking of my dad and going like, okay, check, check, no check. And there are obviously a number of those, in particular, I would say the sense of entitlement, the lack of empathy, interpersonal manipulation, yeah. But there were a number that were absent in him, like the sense of kind of grandiosity,

I would say, and also the need for constant—my dad didn't really have a need for constant praise or anything like that. What I would say about the grandiosity piece with your dad is there's a sense that rules just don't apply to him. Oh, for sure. You know, and that inflated self-view, this I'm above the law, drives him to really seek control over other people's lives. Yes, yes, that rings very, very true.

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plus 20% off your next two months. That's code DESTROY50 at greenchef.com slash destroy 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next two months. Green Chef, the number one meal kit for eating well. One other question we've long wondered, and I don't know if there's a definitive answer, you know to this for everyone who suffers from this disorder But is this something that Danny's dad was likely born with or was this a condition that came upon through nurture? Yeah, another really strong question, you know Narcissism is generally believed to develop through a combination of genetic

believed to develop through a combination of genetic, environmental, also social factors, rather than being something purely inherited or present at birth. Some research does suggest that there may be a genetic predisposition to traits like grandiosity or a lack of empathy. But these traits are often shaped by early childhood experiences, and of course, the social developmental environment were brought into. So individuals who grow up with excessive praise

or excessive criticism, inconsistent parenting, neglect, or emotional abuse may develop narcissistic tendencies as a coping mechanism. And these early life experiences can influence how people relate to others, which often leads to the development of narcissistic traits as a way to protect or elevate their sense of self-worth. So there may be some biological components that contribute to narcissism, but it's not something one is simply born with. It usually develops over time as a result of a very complex interplay between

genetic and environmental influences. Wow. Well, unfortunately, what I know about my dad's upbringing in terms of the environment is kind of limited. What I know, here's what I know, and I'm just, and then I have a question at the end of this, which is, what I know is that my grandmother was depressed for a chunk of his childhood. She had survivor's guilt.

We had a lot of family members that died in the Holocaust. And I know that my grandfather was like very strict, but I don't know whether or not that was in reaction to my dad's behavior or innate to my grandfather's behavior. And then I know stories from my aunt that, like from my aunt's telling, my dad was trouble from the beginning, was listening in on her phone conversations when she was a kid, was doing all these things,

sabotaging her car, all kinds of things. So I'm just curious with just those facts, I guess my question is, is is like in your professional opinion, is it likely there was something more to my dad's childhood than we know, or in order to kind of develop somebody like him or, or is what I've said is a lot, but it's quite likely that there are significant factors beyond just that that contributed to the development of your dad's narcissistic traits. But look, here are some possible contributing factors. Maternal depression. A depressed parent may struggle to provide consistent emotional availability or warmth. And kids who grow up in those environments might feel neglected or emotionally unsupported, which could lead them to develop defense mechanisms like seeking external validation or attention, which are core traits of narcissism. And a lack

of consistent nurturing can also create feelings of insecurity and low self-esteem, which a narcissistic personality might overcompensate for by building up a grandiose self-image. Your strict grandfather, especially in reaction to your father's perceived behavioral problems, can create a rigid and punitive environment that might foster feelings of inadequacy or resentment in a child and your father. And narcissistic traits can develop as a way to cope with that strictness as your dad may, you know, have attempted to rebel by asserting control or superiority in other areas of his life. Yeah, and isn't that the irony of parenthood? The thing that you're trying to do to fix the problem is just making it worse. Beyond Beyond. The fact that your aunt is saying

your dad's behaviors and your father's presentation was trouble from the beginning may reflect early behavior that could have been interpreted as attention seeking or difficult, maybe signaling some early developmental issues. So there's that piece too. But again, having a depressed mom and a very strict stern father likely created somewhat of an emotionally unstable environment. And narcissism can be a reaction to that instability where your father learned to suppress vulnerability and instead project confidence, control, superiority to shield himself from emotional pain or rejection. That's fascinating.

Yeah. Wow. Can a narcissist in their adult life, can a narcissist get better? The short answer is yes. The longer answer is quite complicated because meaningful change requires self-awareness, willingness, and a long-term commitment to therapy. And narcissistic traits are deeply ingrained in a person's personality, making it very difficult to transform completely. There are certain approaches, particularly psychodynamic therapy or cognitive

behavioral therapy, where folks with narcissism can begin to recognize their patterns of behavior, address some of their underlying vulnerabilities, and ultimately develop healthier ways of relating to others. But it takes time and it takes real commitment. And there are no medications that treat personality disorders of which narcissism is one. Yeah, got it. That that seems to jive. I remember there was zero chance my dad would have ever willingly agreed to go to therapy. He did go to couples therapy, obviously, when my mom threatened to leave him.

Right. But that was the deal. And he didn't take it seriously. So just just curious to just to leave him right but that that was the and he didn't take it seriously so right just just curious to just to piggyback off of that if a narcissist does come to therapy you know as you said earlier for a sense of not getting enough credit or whatever praise in their life and you sort of pick up on the narcissistic personality disorder do you as a psychologist try to treat the narcissism like do you say what, do you, as a psychologist, try to treat the narcissism? Like, what do you say to them

in order to try to move them forward? Yeah, you know, I would say the approach is often more nuanced than directly treating narcissism outright. Therapy really focuses with narcissists on addressing the underlying issues that drive the narcissistic behaviors, low self-esteem, a fragile sense of self, or unmet emotional

needs. Building rapport is really huge. Again, exploring underlying issues, focusing on behavioral patterns. So I wouldn't really label the client as a narcissist, but I focus on the problematic patterns in their relationships, difficulties with empathy, entitlement, manipulation that contribute to their distress or dissatisfaction. And gradually I would introduce narcissistic traits as the therapeutic relationship and trust built and develop. And without that work, is it kind of a fait accompli that narcissism will get worse over time or is that not necessarily the case?

It's not necessarily the case, but typically I would say narcissism left untreated will get worse over time because there's a deepening of behavioral patterns. There's an increased resistance to feedback as narcissistic traits go untreated. There's a diminishing return from external validation. So the external sources that fuel the narcissism may diminish or become insufficient to maintain their inflated sense of self, which could lead to more frustration, entitlement, even aggressive behaviors as they attempt to secure the admiration that they crave but aren't getting. There are relationship strains, and there's also the loss of control that comes from aging. Physical decline, a loss of status, these tend to threaten a narcissist's sense of superiority.

That makes a lot of sense. more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at phys.ca. Your teen requested a ride, but this time not from you. It's through their Uber Teen account. It's an Uber account that allows your teen to request a ride under your supervision with live trip tracking and highly rated drivers. Add your teen to your Uber account today. today. Another question I have is, and you'll see why I'm asking this, is it possible that I have narcissism, that it's like dormant within me and might sort of erupt or come to the surface at some point in my life? You know, that's a good question. It's not typically dormant narcissism in the same way that certain psychological conditions

might be, like certain genetic or neurological disorders. But children can exhibit narcissistic traits that may or may not fully manifest into a full-blown personality disorder, depending on various factors. You know, some degree of self-centeredness and a lack of empathy is natural in kids, especially during adolescence, if either one of you have teenagers yet. And if you don't, I wish you all the best of luck at that point. Not yet. There's also environmental influences, you know, childhood experiences play a significant

role in determining whether narcissistic traits develop further or will manifest. But some kids may be more predisposed to narcissistic traits due to their temperament or personality style. Again, I've not assessed you directly clinically, but from everything that I've heard and all that you've described, I don't really sense narcissistic features within you. Your capacity for self-reflection, your capacity for empathy is far too present and strong to — — Disagree. — Fair enough.

Tell me, tell me. — How much time you got, Doc? I'm sorry, I just, I just — — That's amazing to hear, yeah. — Yeah. — I'd like to ask a few questions, if I could, about specific behavior of my dad's. — Sure. You know, in one of the earlier episodes, we talked about this time in which I caught

my dad breaking into my email. And after a couple days, he told me this sort of crazy story about this kid that he was going to represent with the Department of Defense and he asked the kid to break into an account so he, so he, so my dad could be assured that what he was claiming he could do he could and that he apologized that he told me that he told the kid to break into my account and he should have done, shouldn't have done that. And as he was telling that story, he was crying. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, what are those tears? Like, is he is he honestly believing that story?

Or is that like what is the nature of that emotion? Well, you know, the tears of of your father in this instance, I think, are complex and driven by probably different motivations than genuine emotional remorse. Tears can be a manipulation tactic, and narcissists often use emotions, including crying, to manipulate. You may have been attempting to gain sympathy, deflect responsibility, or avoid further confrontation. I mean, we refer to sometimes narcissists crying as crocodile tears where the emotion serves to protect their image or avoid consequences rather than as an emblem of true regret. There could also be shame. Narcissists

have tremendously fragile self-esteem beneath the outward confidence and veneer. And the crying because your father probably felt embarrassed or ashamed of being exposed. But I think the tears stemmed more from feeling that his grandiose self-image had been threatened rather than genuine empathy or concern for the impact of that violation. That's really interesting. Wow. It could also be due to a lack of control. You know, narcissists view control and dominance and they value those in relationships.

So being caught engaging in deceptive behavior could have triggered that sense of losing control. Caught red-handed with the smoking gun in hand. Right. What is so interesting about that to me, everything you just said, is that, you know, on one hand we were talking about narcissists as having sort of like lacking emotions in the way or expressing emotions in not the way that people that are mentally and emotionally healthy do.

At the same time, like, it's almost like he's a good actor. Like, he has access to his emotional core in a way that sometimes I wish I did in my own acting work. You know what I mean? Like, that, there's something impressive about that, in a way. Is it that conscious, though? Like, in the way that an actor is sort of, you know,

either making choices or, like, the way that an actor is sort of either making choices or like playing a role, or is it just something that he's doing purely instinctively? Instinctively. Well, I think it's perhaps a combination of both. I mean, there's the conscious manipulation. Again, he was aware that he's acting to achieve a desired outcome.

At the same time, there's an unconscious emotional defense. So the crying may be less about conscious manipulation and more of that automatic defense mechanism. Again, narcissists have very fragile egos and they're highly sensitive to threats to their self-esteem. So when your father was caught in a lie or an act of deception, it was a way of self-esteem. So when your father was caught in a lie or an act of deception,

it was a way of self-soothing in a way or deflecting from feelings of shame or inadequacy. So I think the emotion is being driven by a need to protect his image. But narcissists are often described as good actors because they are skilled at mimicking genuine emotional responses when necessary.

And they do, as you described, have access to deep emotional cores, but their emotional expression often lacks consistency, depth, and importantly, sincerity. Wow. Wow. That's fascinating. Can I ask you a question that I've sort of wondered about for a long time? And that is that like, I guess my question is, is am I wrong to believe that my dad really loved me?

Or is that a fantasy, do you think, given someone with his particular characteristics? Obviously, I know that you haven't diagnosed him, and this is just you having listened to the podcast, but I'm just curious if you have any insight into that. Yeah, look, it's not, by the way, uncommon at all to wonder if a narcissist truly loves you, especially when that narcissist is a parent. You know, the nature of narcissism complicates healthy emotional connections. And narcissists often have a very distorted sense of self and seek relationships primarily for validation and control rather than for support and mutual love. That doesn't mean that they don't have feelings, but their capacity to

genuinely love in a way that involves empathy, compromise, and emotional intimacy is frequently impaired. What might feel like love can oftentimes be more about a narcissist's need for admiration and control. So they may show affection when it suits them or when they need something from you, but their emotional support is often inconsistent, superficial, or even manipulative. And transactional, I imagine. Very much so, transactional. And as we know, true love involves empathy, reciprocity,

mutual care, traits that are often lacking in narcissistic dynamics. So you're saying no, Doc, is that right? It's a long-winded way of saying, in his own fragmented way, I believe he probably loved you more, and his children more than others, because you are, of course, an offshoot of him.

But the wholeness of that love is really impaired and compromised. So it's not the typical love that we would expect in a parental dynamic. Yeah. Fascinating. And heartbreaking, honestly. How does that feel, Danny? I was going to say, how does he react to that?

That's rough. I mean, because I had always kind of had this idea in my mind that, oh, he, you know, when I said at his funeral, that's what I mentioned in the podcast that he loved deeply, just not in a healthy way, which may, which I suppose that still could be true if you're saying that he does have emotions. It's just, they're just skewed and kind of in the wrong buckets, sort of. They're shallow too, quite shallow. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So, so the opposite of loved very deeply. That's correct. Well, it's like you could say he loved to the extent

that he had the capacity to do so. Which is to say he didn't really have the capacity to do so. No, he did not. Danny and I are, I think at our core, emotional people. And what I mean by that is that like, we want to believe, even though we know everything that his dad did,

and maybe I'm speaking for you too strongly here, Danny, but I feel like I still wanted to believe that there's some love there, you know, to our earlier conversation, or that there's some genuine emotion there. And hearing you talk in your professional opinion, it's all, it's all accurate, I'm sure, and just so clinical and so like, no, no, there was no love there. There was no emotion there.

And it's like, I don't know, I'm struck, Danny, by like a feeling of being disheartened a little bit. And I don't know, like, I'm feeling like, man, it's just so cold and he's so broken. And I don't, I just, even now at this stage of this process, I still didn't want to believe that it was to that extent. Yeah. The love may have felt very present for your dad, but again, I think there's an emphasis on attachment

over genuine love. You know,issists form strong attachments, but the attachments are based on how the other person serves their needs, whether through admiration, validation, or status. The love tends to be very transactional. There may be brief moments when a narcissist shows up vulnerably or behaves in ways that seem authentically loving, particularly if they fear losing the relationship. And those moments can feel very real and sincere, but they're often short-lived, reverting back to behaviors centered around their own needs. And for many narcissists, love is a form of control. They express love to maintain power over their partners,

their children, especially if they feel that the relationship is slipping away from their grasp. So it's really about keeping the other person emotionally tethered to them rather than love in the way that any one of us might define. That certainly rings true. Can I just go back to something you were talking about earlier about the grandiosity as a part of an attention and praise

as a part of narcissistic personality disorder? You know, I'm just trying to square that with like, help me understand my dad, for example, like the biggest achievement professionally in his life was winning this Supreme Court case. And he went to great trouble to avoid any acclaim from that victory whatsoever. He didn't put his name from the case. He had his initials. So like, what is that about? Do you think?

You know, that's a tough one. You know, it may have been, again, about exerting his own control. He was going to have the final stamp on things by removing himself. That gave him a sense of power and dominance. But it's quite complicated. You know, I think, again, with your father, there were deep-seated feelings of insecurity or inadequacy.

So that accomplishment, that feat may not have measured up in his eyes. And I think he probably reacted with his own rage, shame, or withdrawal, you know, removing his name, removing his participation publicly, at least from this case. There are other elements of Danny's dad that, you know, I don't know if there are other disorders that are connected with this, but like, he was extremely paranoid and extremely obsessed with what he called his privacy.

That word Danny's mom said he used all the time. I do this because of my privacy. And it goes back to like, he was arrested at one point and someone had turned him in for stealing some telephones and he never figured out who it was. And from then on, you know, he would always hide his address He was arrested at one point and someone had turned him in for stealing some telephones and he never figured out who it was. And from that, from then on, you know, he would always hide his address and the whole thing with the royal manner and didn't want anyone knowing where he lived.

And the, the, the, the removing his name from the Supreme court to me always kind of connected into that idea of like privacy. Uh, I don't know if that's part of narcissism or something else. It can be very much. I think for many narcissists, privacy can be a way to exert control over their environment and relationships. By withholding information, being secretive,

they maintain a sense of power. And that can manifest as controlling who knows what, when, and again, that may cause narcissists like your father to become overly concerned with privacy and protective of personal information. Paranoia can also be a defense mechanism, projecting their own deceitful or manipulative behaviors onto others. So since your father was quite manipulative himself, he may have assumed that others were equally untrustworthy, leading to heightened vigilance about privacy.

They often expect others to act with the same self-serving motives, which I think fueled his paranoia. Yeah, I wanna ask you about another thing here. This is something we have not talked about on the podcast because it feels tawdry or something that we can't quite confirm. There's a lot of weird issues around it that we haven't wrapped our brain around, but I am curious to ask you. So my mom has a theory that my dad was either bisexual or homosexual. That he, and that in fact she said that he, you know, surrounded himself

with gay men when he was in law school in Chicago and then at one point she found male pornography in their house when she was married to him. She did not ask him about it subsequently. And I don't know, I guess I don't know what my question is about that. I don't, I guess is, is what I guess my question is like, how does sexuality fit into narcissism? Especially when you're hiding it, if he were having to live in secret. Right. Well, look, narcissism itself is not inherently linked to sexual orientation, but a narcissist's behavior can sometimes create confusion in relationships or even self-identity. So a narcissist may surround themselves with people, regardless of gender, who provide

validation and admiration, which can sometimes lead to close relationships that may be perceived as romantic or sexual. And again, your father craved attention and validation, but simultaneously privacy and secrecy, which was very complicated. But he probably sought admiration from same-sex friends or acquaintances, not necessarily because of sexual interest, but perhaps due to his desire for affirmation. He almost doubled in the population his narcissistic supply. You know? Oh, wow.

Yeah, if your father was secretly bisexual or gay, it's possible that he repressed or hid this part of his identity due to societal, familial, personal pressures. He may have felt shame or conflict over aspects of his identity and may have attempted to overcompensate by presenting a more traditional or heteronormative facade. Well, I was going to, we've been talking a lot about Richard and I wanted to turn our attention to Danny a little bit Mm-hmm. I know at the very very beginning of our conversation You talked about one of the things that you do involves

I think you called it emotional risk-taking and that made me think of this podcast that we're doing Which is from the beginning a big example of emotional risk-taking So so maybe I already know what the answer to this is, but one of the questions that I have asked 875 times over the course of making this podcast as Danny's friend is, is this a good idea? What we're doing? Richard is dead. So he's not getting better, but Danny is very much alive and a father of young children and, um, you know, my best friend and, and, and writing and directing partner and like, you know, someone who is a part of a family.

Are we making a mistake or is this a good idea? Mm-hmm. Look, I think there's real potential benefits and there's also some real potential risks. The benefits include- That's not the definitive yes I was looking for. Sorry, go on. Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, yeah. look, it's complicated. The potential benefits are, of course, the emotional risk taking and healing. Publicly discussing the impact of growing up with a narcissistic dad is a very powerful act of healing. It can reduce feelings of isolation. It can validate the challenges faced and really

help you, Danny, to reclaim your narrative. It also raises awareness. It's an opportunity to process and self-reflect. That being said, it's important to not overly identify with your father. In some ways, this may have been ideal for your father, even though he's been being spoken about in quite objective and arguably critical ways, he's still being talked about posthumously. And that is again, something that a narcissist would crave. Any attention is perceived as being a good thing on some level. But there could be some backlash, some unintended emotional consequences for you,

talking about painful memories, you know, triggers unresolved feelings. And I have noticed in listening, you do often use humor as a mechanism to deflect to contain probably some of the breadth of your emotional pain. Have you noticed that? Oh, oh, I mean, it's something I've done my whole life. His entire life, his entire life for sure. I had to resist even as you were talking, interrupting you to make a joke. So, certainly. Yeah, well, that makes sense. I mean, I imagine that that does several things. I imagine on the plus side, it's, I don't know, I find it there's something about retreating to some

some kind of safety in that humor. But are you saying that that is not an ideal way of processing things? No, it's an adaptive way. Adaptive doesn't always mean best for us. So it's a copic mechanism. And I think it helps to manage the emotional complexities and stress of growing up in a narcissistic environment. But it may also create distance from vulnerability for you. And I wonder what it would look like to just be conscious of that shield so that you can continue to engage with difficult topics and feelings in a more, in a less shielded, guarded way. Yeah. Interesting. One of the debates that we've had a lot in the podcast is about whether

or not ultimately it was the best thing to end my relationship with my dad, or say, my brother did not do that. My brother kind of just kind of accepted, it had this kind of radical acceptance of who my dad was, and so was able to avoid the kind of emotional hurt that my dad's behavior had on me. And I'm just wondering between those two, or not even between those two, but what you think about those kinds of ways

of responding to a long-term relationship with a narcissist. Again, it's really complicated, and there's no one right answer. But more than anything, being in a relationship, especially being the child of a narcissist, is freaking exhausting. You know, narcissists drain their children emotionally by demanding constant attention, admiration, control.

I think you probably felt exhausted by the constant need to manage your father's emotions or to avoid conflict. And that can hinder personal growth and happiness. You are probably exhausted by all the constant growth and happiness. You are probably exhausted by all the constant manipulation and control. There's also a lack of reciprocity in a relationship with a narcissist. Relationships are often one-sided, and there, I imagine, was a lack of reciprocity surrounding

support, empathy, and care. Narcissists also ignore, violate boundaries. And there's also very little change with a narcissist unless they're really willing to acknowledge their behavior and seek help. So you're probably exhausted by this cycle of hope and disappointment. I imagine you saw glimmers of your father's improvement or glimmers of what felt like real love. And that drew you in. Then there's the loss. Yeah.

So like, is it emotionally healthy to maintain, if as a child of a narcissist, to maintain that relationship? Or are you saying that like- Through that exhaustion, even though- Through that exhaustion? Yeah. I don't wanna give an explicit yes or no because it really just depends. I would say if you are able to set boundaries and affirm those boundaries and really exact consequences or outcomes when those boundaries are violated, that may be one factor that indicates it is okay

to engage with reasonable precaution. But there's a tremendous amount of love bombing and then emotional withdrawal within narcissistic relationships, particularly a parental dynamic with a narcissist. And I would say if there is an ongoing relationship, it should be a pretty low contact relationship with strict boundaries, strict and clear intentions. And look, in extreme cases, going no contact might be the healthiest option. And I can think of a number in my own practice where no contact dynamics with a narcissistic parent or spouse was the best answer because it provides space for healing without the constant emotional strain of managing the narcissistic figure. Yeah. In

your case, it sounds like it was a really healthy decision. And what do you make of my eventual attraction to like performance and improvisation? Because like for me, we haven't really talked about this on the podcast, but like, I had this moment in college when I was a volunteer in an improv show, and it was as if my brain exploded. I felt at home and singularly calm in that very unstable moment of being on a stage and being asked to improvise something. And I became really obsessed with improv and have been for the last 20 plus years. And I'm just curious if there's any connection that you might draw between that and then acting and performance in general, but that I guess

in particular and the upbringing that I had. Yeah, well, again, children of narcissists grow up with inconsistent and conditional love, where oftentimes one has to perform to gain approval. In your case, I think the stage provides an opportunity to receive admiration and external validation, which is something that may have been missing or sporadic in your youth. The applause, the positive feedback can kind of

fill that emotional void created by a narcissistic parent's lack of empathy or criticism. It's also a controlled environment for attention. So the emotional risk-taking isn't as present as would be in a personal relationship with a narcissistic parent. So you're in control to some extent of the attention that you receive, which can be a relief compared to the unpredictable emotional dynamics that you experienced throughout your life within your family system. It also allowed you to escape vulnerability. And that's a form of emotional protection. Can you talk more about that?

How did it do that? Well, look, in many ways, growing up with a narcissist feels unsafe to be vulnerable or express authentic emotions. And acting can be a way to explore emotions and identify in a way that feels safer because it's just a role or it's just a performance. So it's vulnerability with parameters. Right, but what about like improvisation,

which feels like it has less of those parameters because there's no script, there's no plan. Obviously you're still on a stage, so like you can't be, I guess maybe what you would say is that you still can't be hurt, you know, in the same way that maybe you would be in real life. But I don't know, do you see any distinction between that? Look, I think there's a reclamation of autonomy

and flexibility that can come from improv. You could be yourself. Growing up, there was little room for independent thought or action. And improv with fewer rules kind of provides an open-ended space where you can explore your spontaneity without the constraints of judgment or control. And it can feel like reclaiming autonomy, something that you couldn't really access in childhood. Many children of narcissists are raised with the pressure to be perfect or to meet a narcissistic parents high expectations and are scrutinized for mistakes. Improv may allow you to embrace imperfection and unpredictability. There's also the freedom from control. You know, improv is a space where you can act without

someone else's influence and you could feel empowered to make spontaneous decisions. It gives you a sense of liberation from the narcissistic control that you endured. Wow. Yeah, the word liberation really hits home for me. When I said my brain exploded, it was as if I was freed from something in that moment. So that feels really dead on. Well, and it's interesting, Danny, that this happened to you when you went to college, right?

When you left your dad. You were literally liberated from his house and then this happened to you when you went to college, right? When you left your dad, you know, you were literally liberated from his house and then this happened. On a broader level, you know, how would you recommend that I continue to move forward and my mom also continues to move forward? In terms of your own healing? Yeah.

Look, I think doing what you're doing is a huge step. It sounds like you've been or are currently in some psychotherapy. I think that's really critical, you know, acknowledging and processing emotions, you know, things like journaling. Another thing is setting boundaries. You know, one of the most important aspects of healing from narcissistic injuries is learning to set and enforce boundaries. So not just in a relationship with the narcissist, but in general, boundaries help to preserve our mental health and prevent further emotional harm. I also think continuing to build self-worth and independent identity are really important. And look, I think part of healing involves grieving the loss of the

idealized version of your father, what you might have wished he was but never was. That acceptance is really painful, but it's also, again, liberating because it allows you to let go of false hopes and begin to focus and continue to focus, I should say, on your own healing and growth. But it sounds like you're really on the right track. You've developed some very healthy relationships in your life. And lastly, I would say, practice forgiving yourself, not necessarily your father. Forgiveness is often very misunderstood in the context of narcissistic abuse. You might benefit from letting go of any guilt, shame, self-blame for how the relationship

with your father unfolded. And you may need to release some internalized sense of failure or responsibility for not fixing the relationship. So I really want you to hold on to that. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, listen, I know we are pushing up against the hard out. So the last question I wanted to ask you, unless Darren has anything else, is like, was there anything, I know you've listened to the podcast. Was there anything in the podcast that really stood out to you as unorthodox or somehow wrong, particularly extreme or yeah, maybe something that we've been talking about in an incorrect way or anything like that?

You know, as it relates to how you've been speaking about narcissism, I think you've done a really stellar job. I also think the conversational, you know, oftentimes humorous, lighthearted manner in which you've been discussing this allows for topics to be addressed that may otherwise go unnoticed. I mean, you even talked about your father and mom having a great sex life at some point. I mean, that's pretty ambitious. Right. great sex life at some point. I mean, that's pretty ambitious. I was more so struck by the extent of the classic narcissistic traits that your father exhibited, you know, the grandiosity, the lack

of empathy, the manipulation, the exploitative relationships, and your capacity to really reflect on these dynamics and to heal through them, I think, has been powerful. One thing I think is important to maybe bring up on the show is that narcissism exists on a spectrum. A narcissistic personality disorder is an extreme and pathological form of it. There are some healthier versions of narcissism, self-confidence, and that of course is not injurious. But you've done a really good job of reflecting on the interpersonal damage, the emotional instability and vulnerabilities in some ways of your father, and just the impact of narcissism on your entire family system,

on the community at large, really. Well, that is amazing to hear. And Dr. Josh, I can, I could talk to you for hours and hours, which I'm sure... Oh my God, this is incredible. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on, and we really appreciate it. We do not thank you enough. This is so generous of you.

It's my pleasure. You guys, I really genuinely enjoy the show, and I will continue to listen. So you're so welcome generous of you. It's my pleasure. You guys, I really genuinely enjoy the show and I will continue to listen. So you're so welcome. Thank you. You got it. Oh man. Wow.

Good stuff. Man, oh man. I want to thank Dr. Josh for coming in and just letting us just interrogate him. Yeah, I mean, geez, he should honestly, he should just host this podcast with you. He knows more than I do. It was fantastic. And so, and one other thing that I wanted to bring up,

because this episode is very much about sort of the therapeutic process and also like positive things coming out of negative things, which this podcast very much is, is I've kind of talked a lot about my grandfather, Sidney Jacobs, in this podcast. He's come up in a lot about my grandfather, Sydney Jacobs, in this podcast. He's come up in a lot of different ways. And just to kind of remind people, he was a real rock for me growing up.

He was in a lot of ways my hero. I loved him very, very much. And he had done this thing in his career back in the 90s that I had not really drawn a connection to what we've been talking about with my dad, but a family member recently made this connection for me, which is that in the 1990s and 1996, my grandfather came up with and started

the very first suicide prevention hotline in the United States. My grandfather was, before he got into real estate, was working as a social worker. And it was then called the Suicide Prevention Hotline. It then became something called Life Crisis Services. But it was this kind of framework for people who were considering suicide

to call to get help. And a family member told me, you know that part of the reason that he did that was because of what he was dealing with, with your dad, with Richard. And I didn't know that. I had never known that that was something that was connected to the difficulties

that he was facing as a parent of Richard Jacobs. Wow, he took this sort of personal family crisis, looked outward to how he could help others and no doubt that hotline has saved so many people. You're right, and helped so many people. Yeah, so it's just, I don't know, like I sort of, it warms my heart to feel like not that what we're doing with this podcast

is in any way commensurate with the creation of a suicide prevention hotline and the good that that does, but it is something. And it is a way of looking outwards, turning this outwards and trying to help in some way. And the fact that it's parallel to my hero who did that, really makes me feel good. Well, and for me also, I always loved your grandpa.

I always knew that he was a rock. Some of the revelations that we've had in this podcast have like complicated him in some ways for me. So this is a reminder of like, oh yeah, no, he was this extraordinary man who really truly wanted to help people and be like a contributing member of the community. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah. So that's that. So we're now turning to our next episode coming next week and we've got something pretty exciting for you guys. Yeah, this is gonna be a different kind of episode, because as we get into the meat of the divorce, you might call it, we are going to be presenting you guys an episode in which we took no liberties,

because we had access to the court transcripts of the divorce hearings. And so everything that you're going to hear comes directly from the actual court proceeding. Yeah, yeah, and it's wild. So here, we'll give you a little sneak peek now, and then we'll see you next week. I have to say, like, at this point,

even if I'm trying to be objective, your dad is not coming off very well here. Listen, it's never ideal when a doctor testifies that you have multiple personality disorders. Yes, that's right. Anyway, counselor, I'm sorry for interrupting. Please proceed. Did you formulate an opinion with regard

to any limitations Mr. Jacobs has as a parent? I think he has several rather severe limitations. One would be, I believe, that he would continue to keep the children involved in the marriage of this dispute and battle consistent with his dedication to win. I don't think he would, by his own statement, ever accept any ruling or any arrangement that he doesn't consider to be in accordance with what he considers to be right. Did he make that statement to you, Doctor?

Yes. He predicted if he did not get full legal custody of the children, they would spend the rest of their lives in court. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at ikknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Also, I'm gonna be honest with you guys, we need all the help we can get. So if you wanna support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon

at patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff we're gonna share. Pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons. Also, please find us on our social, specifically Instagram, at How To Destroy Everything. You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.