How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy an Audience

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren finally explain why it took them so freakin' long to get this season ready while checking in with Danny's mom about the podcast's emotional toll. We'll also play some extended interviews from The Royal Manor.  Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.  If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I don't even know how we're going to start this. I know. It's like, are we going to have a version of, you know? I mean, maybe this is the start. Oh, is the podcast starting? I listen to a lot of podcasts, interview podcasts. They do that. They do that.

And then there's music that comes in. And then the guy's like, oh, we already started that one. It's like, yeah, because this is how it goes. So is this entertaining? TBD. Anyway. TBD. Anyway. TBD. Hey, everybody.

Hey, so obviously this has got a different vibe than the last episode, episode three. And that's because this is an interregnum. An interregnum. Now, we...

This is not your father's interregnum. No, we had a couple of these when we started the season before we kind of knew what we were really doing. And now we know what we're really doing. I mean, if you're looking for a podcast experts, just don't call us, but just know that we're out there. No, no. Darren and I are.

Don't call us. Make a podcast and we'll listen to it. Yeah, we will listen. We'll answer your questions in our podcast. We're not going to provide any advice directly or anything like that. No, no, no. So these interregnums are going to be coming at you. Every other week. Every other week. So we're going to be releasing one of our main episodes and then we're going to release

these. And what these are going to be are going to be a lot more... Very entertaining, first of all. Well, as you can already tell. Evidenced by the moment. They're going to be a lot more informal than the episodes in the main storyline. Yeah. What we're going to be a lot more informal than the episodes in the main storyline. Yeah. What we're going to be doing is reflecting on and going deeper into the episode that you just heard. So you just heard episode three last week or whenever you listened to it. We're going to talk a little bit about that.

We're also going to share extended interviews that we couldn't find good places for, but stuff that we really love from the previous episode. And we're also just going to get into this podcast has really taken on a life of its own. It's become this much larger beast than we imagined in terms of people that we've heard from and impacts that it's having on our lives. And we are going to keep you abreast of those things and really get into that in these biweekly interregnums. Yeah. And we're going to keep you abreast of those things and really get into that in these bi-weekly interregnums. Yeah. And we're probably going to bring my mom in quite a bit. Absolutely. Sandy is the real star of the show. Let's be honest.

That's why people are really here. Did we even introduce ourselves with our names? I don't believe so. What is your name? I'm Danny Jacobs. And I'm Darren Grosky. And this is How to Destroy Everything, which is a podcast about my narcissistic father and the path of destruction that he wrought over the course of his life and my attempts to try to understand him and in doing so understand myself and as a new parent, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We just heard that our listeners just heard this episode three. Yeah. In which I managed to get you virtually back into your childhood home. I thought you were going to say, I managed to get you to cry. Well, I did. I did do that. And that was my intention from the start. No, no, no. That was, we discussed in the episode, a shocking moment. Yeah. You know,

one thing I do have to say about that moment was when you started to break down, I was simultaneously feeling concerned about you as your friend, but also extremely excited for the podcast. I was like,

I was a split personality where I was like, oh, is Danny okay? Wow, this is good. Oh, this is good stuff. This is good content. It's good stuff. Yeah. I don't know if any part of you was that. No, you were having a genuine emotion experience.

I was. Who knows? Maybe somewhere deep inside I was. But it's true. You are a performer. That's the weird part about this. Right, exactly. Yes, I'm a a performer we are storytellers we are writers like we we we are always thinking about narrative structure and i think there is this

format format kind of hard by the way because it's like sometimes i'm in an interview and in my mind i'm writing it how i want it to go and people turns out people have agency and they they don't respond always in the exact way that you want them to. Oh, sure, sure. It's hard to control other people, you're saying. Yeah, real tough. But I do think that that's a constant tension

for both you and I as we're making this podcast. Don't speak for me. Which is the effort to try to have a genuine experience and genuinely explore this while also keeping in mind like, oh, gosh, this needs to have a shape and this needs to have a conclusion that makes sense. And this needs to further the narrative, whatever that means. You know what I mean? Like, especially me, like my emotional journey doesn't, emotional journeys in real life don't follow the three-act structure. No, they do not.

You know what I mean? It's true. Frust so frustratingly that's true that is a tension that i think we we're constantly sort of dealing with and there's an element of of creation in that i mean like i think one of the ways that we're kind of dealing with that is through these narrative scenes yes um by giving us a chance to really just sort of control an emotional beat right Right. But we are open, clearly, to going where the podcast takes us because episodes two and three were never our intention from the start. It was only because we had received that message from Chloe and we went back to the house

and wound up having this genuine emotional journey. I mean, episode three was insane. Yeah, if I were to sort of like write the story of this, it would be that emotional catharsis wouldn't have occurred until like three quarters of the way through the season. It was way too soon. It was way too soon. You're right.

It was way too soon. Now, who's to say that there won't be more of that? But just still, it felt like a lot early. But you know, sometimes stories surprise us. Yeah, that's true. And that surprised us. Maybe this will help us as writers to kind of break out of sort of a stage structure. Oh God. Act one, act two, act three. No, shut up. Just tell the story. Anyway, there was more that we left on the proverbial cutting room floor from that, from that episode.

I was in that room with you virtually for two hours. It was a remarkable experience. And because we couldn't fit everything into the tight narrative that we put together in episode three, we did want to share with you a little bit more of that party, a little extended interview. They're beeping. Okay, cool. Okay, so will you introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Cheryl Williams. So I introduced myself earlier. I live in the Cooper's house. Yes.

So we moved in in 94. And I don't know exactly what year this happened, but we put up Christmas lights. And it wasn't an extensive amount of Christmas lights. So it didn't look like Christmas vacation or anything, but just a normal amount of Christmas lights. And they were cut. And so it was clear that they were cut. And so we put out a nice little note in everybody's mailbox, kind of from the end of the street, so the Bader's, up to as you go up the hill. So just like, say, I don't know, these 12

houses right in this area. We explained that our Christmas lights had been cut. And if anybody knew or had seen anything, just to let us know. And we left our phone number. And we signed our name. So we signed my husband and I's name and we left our phone number. We failed to put the address of our house because everybody, I assumed we'd lived here long enough that everybody knew who we were. So we got one voicemail back and it was left on our home voicemail. And it didn't say who called. It was a man that called. It didn't say who called and it said that he has cameras and that if we would have left the address

he would have been able to help us but since we didn't leave the address of the house the next seven minutes of the voicemail message were how to hotwire Christmas lights so that the next time it happened it would knock the person on their ass. And so this was the best Christmas we've ever had. Because this was like old school voicemail. And so every time, every time somebody came to our house, we were like, wait, you've got to hear our Christmas message. we were like, wait, you've got to hear our Christmas message. And we played that message ad nauseum and just loved it because it was like, it was our Christmas Eve message.

Like the people that came over, it was very entertaining. I had to hot wire our Christmas lights, which we never did. I was going to ask you to give us advice, but you never did. I was going to ask if you took his advice. You never did. I didn't take his advice and do that. Sure that he must have cut them. No, I don't think he cut them. You don't think so?

No, I don't think he cut them at all. No, I don't think it was him that cut them. I actually think it was probably. They've been cut. They've been cut for 13 months since. He passed away. Oh, so some people call him. I think it's like, you know.

That's sad. A neighbor type, you know, like I think it's just obnoxious type thing. So not, no, I don't think he cut him. I think he just taught us how to hotwire him. So I did learn that. I did learn that from your dad. I have memories of your mom coming to the house and talking to me in the kitchen one day. I feel like she was telling me that they couldn't play, you couldn't play together anymore.

I'd love to talk to your mom and see how, I can't remember what happened, but it was my mom. The why. It was interesting. Sandy came and told you that the kids couldn't play together. Yes, I believe so. Because I can only remember coming over here once. Yeah.

And there's a lot of wiring coming out of the walls, and you're like, even as a very small kid, you're like. Yeah. I just remember being in the family room where, remember the tv was set up and everything because we once had ours the same place and it was just very dark like the dark paneling walls that we all had back then yeah and the dark carpet and everything it was just very very dark and i do remember in the kitchen there was like a big hole in the wall or something where a fish tank that's exactly right built yeah but it never worked but it was a big piece of it was never finished the fish tank was even when it was glass yeah even when it was yeah wires and boxes like in it

but it wasn't functioning put things inside the whole like thing when we came in after the guy bought it and all of the like bone like almost looked like an old-time operator's switchboard down in that cubby oh yeah there was there's about 20 wait there was a coffee in the basement oh there were two the cut out where the chimney goes into the basement uh-huh had like i'll say between 40 and 50 phone line phone jackss. 40 to 50? And then a matching number of outlets below it. What? Below the chimney? Uh-huh.

Because there's a fireplace down there today. Oh, is there? Yeah. So there was like literally 40 outlets and 40 phone jacks. These were 40 different phone lines? Yeah, I assume. Didn't you say it had 60 numbers? It looked like a switchboard and it had numbers.

Maybe it was 60. There's a lot. Wow. It was a lot. So after the rehabber bought the house, they did like an estate sale or something. Do you still have that closet downstairs in the basement? We all came through here because we were just also curious of all the different things that he had, I guess, hoarded and selling, like all the different computer parts and wiring.

I just remember coming in through here, there was just stuff everywhere. Stacks of paper. So on the cedar closet in the basement, if I remember this correctly, the pin for the bolts for the hinges is internal to the door. Yes. Which is so that you can't knock it out unless you're inside. That's what you would do in a classified safe or other. Because I worked in military stuff, and that's what you would do if you were in a classified area.

So someone from the outside of the room could not. Interesting. Break it open. Break it open at all. In any way. That was the two rooms in the back of the basement. Yeah, it's very. Yeah, there were two.

You look at that room, and you're like, that's for somebody that doesn't want anybody to get in there for anything. I never knew about either of these rooms. You look at that room and you're like, that's for somebody that doesn't want anybody to get in there for anything. I never knew about either of these rooms. So I have memories of two or three times being up at three in the morning just, yeah, for no reason, whatever, you know. And I would walk down the hall and I would see a truck in the front of the house. And then it was a Keith's room. I'd stand there and I'd listen and you could hear people talking for probably three to five minutes.

They would stop and you'd hear a lot of and then they'd drive off. And that probably happened at least three times. But they were delivering something. They were delivering. There was an exchange going on. Well, semis would come down our street thinking there was a place of business here

because I'm sure he was whatever was being. Looking for a warehouse. Like big, like 18 wheelers. Yeah. In the daytime. We're talking about how you can get down the street. I know. That seems like it.

No, you have to back up. You'd be backing up. Yeah. No. It'd be a bad day for that driver. Because, yeah. But they thought it was a place of business. And when I was always.

So wait. So then Danny's dad would be out there at three in the morning you would hear wow no i'm sure he was i because there was talking i could you know hear exchanges but it was very quick and you know i have no idea what they said right right you know but um no it was really interesting and then they would fly off it was just in danny do you remember your dad addressing things to your house as the one past? Yes. The previous... The Fuchsia's house. Yeah. Everything in the mail was the one past. Because there was no

number on the mailbox. No way. It was the Royal Manor, but it's the one past 126 whatever their number is. That's how we would order pizza when we were in high school. There you go. Because you can't say the Royal Manor. How? We would order pizza delivery and we would tell them There you go. Because you can't say the royal man or they can't. That means nothing to them. So you would, how? We would order pizza, you know, delivery,

and we would tell them the next door house and be like, it's the one past that. It's the one next door. It's the one place that delivers pizza. My dad would tell stories of many times where a repairman or a contractor of some sort would be coming around looking to get paid and be unsuccessful.

And my dad would be like, you're screwed. Not that Ryan has. They're not going to get you. You're not going to find them. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum.

That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. Man, I mean, it's, it's, um, I haven't heard those interviews since we did them. And it goes on and on, you know, I mean, it's, it's, um, I haven't heard those interviews since we did them. And it goes on and on, you know, I mean like that, even that is still just a selection of the stories that we heard at this like party. Yeah. One of the cool things I think to, to just sort of highlight is the way that like, cause

you, you, you guys heard that story in there about the neighbor hearing these trucks rumbling down the street in the middle of the night, delivering these like big things, which turns out they were oxygen tanks. But that is where we got the idea to do that, that narrative scene for the beginning of episode three. That's right. Yeah.

We, we go through all of this material and try to figure out what works as a narrative scene and what sort of should be in, you know, interview form or us talking about it. And it's also, it's hopefully you start to see like, we're not making up any of those, those narrative scenes. Like those, our narrative scenes are based on real experiences that people had, um, or I had, or somebody had about my family and my dad. Yes. I mean, obviously, you know, with the creative license within the scenes themselves,

we're trying as best we can to be truthful in everything that we depict. Yeah. I mean, there's things we don't know. And so there's things that we're sort of filling in the gaps creatively to make it work. And we certainly have a lens through which we view the characters of this story. A hundred percent. And I'm sure that, you know, were Richard alive, his lens would be quite different.

Yeah. I wonder what that would be. What would your dad's version of that delivery scene be? Well, I don't know, but I would imagine there'd be sort of conquering hero music and the neighbors would be lined up on the streets just giving him a standing ovation. Absolutely. Apropos of nothing. I mean, he always had an explanation, you know, for anything that he did. So I feel like his version would be like, well, here's the innocent version of this.

Yeah, exactly. His version would be like, guys, this is not dramatic in any way. It's just me just getting a delivery. Like, it's not. And, you know, there was some whatever. It was 95 degrees out, super hot. So the oxygen tanks would not have been preserved or whatever. They would have, they would have, whatever, whatever heat does the oxygen tanks in the

middle of the night, it's cooler. Yeah. It's cool. So that's all. Yeah. It's perfectly innocent. Perfectly innocent. Anyway.

Or cheaper. Maybe it was cheaper to get the, get them delivered in the middle of the night. That's right. Exactly. But this goes, I think also to like something we wanted to get into in this interregnum, which is just sort of generally a little bit more detail in terms of our process and what that, how that connects to like, where have we been for the last like nine months? That's really, I think the main topic of today's Interregnum is because when last we spoke, it was last year. And I think we, yeah, we said something like, hey, episode three is coming in a couple of days or something like that. And then just like radio silence.

And let me just say that having to go radio silent like that was awful. Oh, it was very, very hard. Like, it just felt like we knew you were out there listeners. Oh, do you know how we know? Because you let us know. Yeah, you made us well aware that you're out there. There are two comments that I want to highlight that I remember.

Oh, I think I know what you're going to say. Firmly stuck in my brain, which is one, somebody commented and said, this show should be called How to Lose an Audience. Brilliant, by the way. I think it was How to Destroy an Audience. Oh, How to Destroy an Audience. Which is way better.

They're better than you are at coming up with that. Well played. Touche, sir. Well played. Because that really cuts to the quick. The other one that I remember was someone that just devastatingly wrote, clearly the apple doesn't fall far. Oh God. I was like, Oh man. Yeah. There've been a few people that have been like,

like sure that what this was was some huge like grift. Like a con. But yeah, that I was like my dad and that like we were, this is all just. You got them. You hooked them. Yeah. Only to betray them by disappearing into the night. Yeah. And that was, I mean, look, I'm, I'm saying this in jest, but it's also, it was very hard to know that, that I, that I was causing

that reaction in people, you know what I mean? Well, and also, I mean, it's just like, we had episode three the whole time. We had it in the can. Yeah. It was, it was ready to go, but you know, but here's the thing. We started this whole thing having zero idea what we were doing. Yes. Which, by the way, is impressively dumb. Because we're not people who are unfamiliar with podcasts. No, I listen to a ton of them. So many of them.

And one thing about them is they all do have a regular cadence. Well, I think, look, I think part of this, honestly, was that... Here comes an excuse. No, but, like, we have always wanted to make this into a television show. Excuse. And so we had, you know, written a TV pilot ahead of this. Yes. And there was part of us that was like, okay, let's just make one episode as sort of like a proof of concept. So people can get the vibe vibe of and the tone of what a TV show version

of this might be. Correct. We didn't know that people would actually like it. And so I don't think we even necessarily had it in our minds for sure that we were going to actually make an entire season. Oh, I can say with pretty confident certainty that we were not planning on making the entire season. This is when we made episode one. Well, then what happened was we made episode one and then somebody at Apple had heard the podcast and were like, hey, we want to highlight this, but you should make an episode two. And we're like, okay.

All right. So we did. So we did. So we made episode two and then we were like, all right, that should be enough. Yeah, that's done. They get it. We don't need ads on this or anything, right?

Honestly, because we didn't do it to try to make money or anything. We really didn't. That was not the intention. We've never done anything in our careers for money, and it shows. It really shows. It's really our ethos. Yes. You know how Google started with the don't be evil?

We said don't make money. Don't make money. That's the Danny and Darren way. We're keeping it up, doing great. This is the way. So anyway, that just made me think of Mandalorian. I'm in Mandalorian. and Darren way. And we're keeping it up, doing great. This is the way. So, anyway, that just made me think of Mandalorian.

I'm in Mandalorian. Wow. What a douchebag you are. I just wanted to explain why it doesn't matter. Oh, God. You can see Danny in The Mandalorian.

Will you make any money? Give them some residuals. Give them some residuals. I Danny in The Mandalorian. Will you make any money? Some residuals. Give them some residuals. I'll give it away because I don't make any money. Anyway, so the point is, is that we had those two episodes and we did make episode three when the podcast blew up. God, I hope we can cut out that Mandalorian part. We're leaving it in. We're 100% leaving that in.

Oh, my goodness. One of your shining moments, in fact, I think. I look forward to comments on that. He is a narcissist. Anyway, so we had episode three, but what we realized was that if we were going to continue at the pace that we were going, we were going to be releasing a new episode

basically every six to eight weeks, which is insanity. And the thing is, it might have been six weeks, then the next one might have been eight weeks, then the next one might have been seven, nine, who knows? Because it was just like, these episodes take a ton of time for us to get ready. Well, let's talk about that for a minute.

Because this episode right here, the interregnum, is mostly you and I talking in a studio. Yeah, with some interviews and things like that, but yeah. But the main episodes, as everyone knows who's heard them, you know, is a combination of these narrative scenes, interviews, us talking. It is actually quite labor-intensive, and that's in part because the way we're doing this is, in our efforts to be truthful and to be comprehensive, is in our efforts to be truthful and to be comprehensive, we are sifting through literally thousands of pages of documents that we have, hours and hours of interviews that we've done. And it's just you and me and our intrepid producer, Michael Grant Terry, like we are

having to do that. Like just to give you audience a preview, at the moment, even though you're listening to this interregnum after episode three, we are also writing episode eight. We are now ahead of the game. And I was just working on episode eight, and the amount of interview transcripts, documents, and other things that I have to go through

when I'm working on that is- Oh, woe is me, Darren. Yeah, I mean, and I'm not in The Mandalorian. I'm not in The Mandalorian, okay? Danny's off shooting The Mandalorian and I'm reading fricking documents. I mean, how's that fair? Listen, the original sin here was our decision,

our inspiration early on that we were gonna base the format of this. Basically, we got inspired by this. There's this docu-series on Netflix that Errol Morris made called Wormwood, which incorporates sort of- Are you in Wormwood, Danny? I am not. It's not, it's about serial killers, if I remember correctly or something. The violence of some kind. Anyway- Violence of some kind. That's a good, that's a good name for a movie title. Violence of some kind.

How about a history of violence? Okay. it cronenberg nobody um no i think this is a good movie weren't they supposed to make a sequel anyway you're way off let me let me focus um in wormwood what we got inspired by was the fact that morris uses recreated scenes that are done really well interviews talking heads it's all of the the documentary tools and fiction and even some fictional tools at his disposal he used and that's what we wanted to do with this and that is a very labor-intensive process we have these narrative scenes that involve getting our actors together and and writing those and recording those. And those are like very sonically dense, you know, to try to really give the vibe of what's going on. And then you have the documentary aspect.

I mean, in our entire careers, as I've watched documentaries, I have remarked to myself again and again, thank God we don't make documentaries. Because it's just like you gather all this footage and it's so daunting to look through all this footage and figure out what it is. And now, goddammit, we're doing it. And it is so hard.

I knew there was a reason why we didn't want to do documentaries. They don't want to hear us complain about this. What I will say is one of the things I do want to say is one of the – oh, sorry. You were going to say something. I don't know what I was going to say. No, I do. I was going to try to bring us back to the whole setup here, the situation. So I don't know if yours is relevant. It's tangential. Okay. So the point is it takes a long time to

do each episode. We did not want to have this sporadic release schedule. We were also speaking with companies that were going to help us in terms of going legit. And it was very clear to us that we needed to set things up so that we could release on a weekly basis. And that is what we've been doing. We have been getting ahead of this thing. Yeah. Uh, we're, as I mentioned, working on episode eight right now so that you can expect every Tuesday in your feed. Yeah. Um, here comes how to destroy everything. Yeah. And you know, another thing that's been going on over the last six months is like, we've been sort of fielding and figuring out, I think what it is that we do want to do and

don't want to do in regards to this universe. Like somebody approached us about doing a book. We got approached about doing a docu-series, you know, and like we really wrestled and I think, well, I think I really wrestled. I think Darren, you purposely kind of, um, uh, took a step back in terms of some of those opportunities that came along, recognizing rightly that like, if we were, whatever we were going to do, like I needed to make sure that I was on board with it first. Well, this is your life. I mean, we've talked about this. This is your life and your trauma. And I certainly cannot, uh, imagine pressuring you to go deep into another format. I think ultimately we sort of put the kibosh on the docu-series idea because, I mean, this is so hard, right? It's so hard to explore this stuff in my life without the veneer of fiction.

And the idea of sort of climbing another mountain that was similar to that um in another medium felt uh really challenge too challenging for me like i i i desperately uh i mean want to get back to the fiction stuff that we enjoy so much of course and and and moving this into a fictional space is what I really desperately would love to do. Yes. Um, because one,

that frees us up where, where we can, we can tell the story that we want to tell that's inspired by this and not, it doesn't have to be confined to the actual details. I don't mean for this to become, uh, this, like basically us saying,

Hey, we don't want to do this podcast. That's not what we're saying. No. And in fact, it's been a remarkable journey so far. Yeah us saying, hey, we don't want to do this podcast. That's not what we're saying. No, and in fact, it's been a remarkable journey so far. Yeah. Like, the people who have reached out to us via our email address, iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. And by the way, if anyone out there has more stories about Richard, please continue to email us because we have had some remarkable experiences talking to people, some of whom are going to be on the podcast later in the season with their own stories about Richard, years long legal battles they've engaged with Richard.

And then we've heard from people who don't't know you or Richard but they were so moved by you and being so open that they felt compelled to share their stories with us which has also been incredible yeah so um this this podcast um has become like it's not something that we're just desperately trying to get to get rid of In fact, the opposite I think is the true. Well, and in fact, as we've been sort of continuing to work on the fictional side of it, it,

it, it is totally informed and changed that 180 degrees. Yes. Um, you know, one thing I have to go back for a second to when you were talking about the, these emails that came in or these, not emails,

but these, uh, this book and this docu-series and, and all of this fuss that there has been about this podcast over the last nine months. One thing that's just remarkable to me and continues to be is that all of this has happened after we released two episodes. Yeah. Two main episodes. And, you know, as we sit here today, recording this interregnum that you are all hearing after episode three, you know, we, I don't even know how many of you are out there listening at this point. A lot of people listen to the first two episodes, you know,

there was a huge fuss over it. Like, is the audience coming back? Yeah, it's true. It's, I don't know. And we're, it's sort of a leap of faith that we're making. And it, and you know what, like, I'm honestly okay. If they don't, I'm okay's true. It's, I don't know. And we're, it's sort of a leap of faith that we're making. And it, and you know what? Like, I'm honestly okay if they don't, I'm okay. We never expected them in the first place. We never expected in the first place. We have found so much value in this. I have found so much emotional, personal value in this, in this journey.

Yeah. And how much it's changed me. Our friendship, I think, has changed fundamentally. I don't like you anymore. I just, yes. I used to like you too. And now, now this is purely a transactional, uh, transact, stop saying great. It's a transactional, um, uh, uh, transaction. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We, this, the, the moment guys, the moment that the mics turn off,

we don't say a word. Haven't spoken to you since the last episode was recorded. But in all seriousness, Danny, like, I feel like I have gotten such a better understanding of what you went through when we were kids. And, you know, like things I just, I knew, I've said this before, I knew your dad was weird when I was eight years old. But like, I didn't really understand what was going on behind closed doors. eight years old, but like, I didn't really understand what was going on behind closed doors. And back to episode three, sitting there and listening to those stories, it was stunning to just like get a glimpse of what it was like for you. And, you know, I think that, um, that, that changes our dynamic on some level. Yeah. And it makes it, it's, it, it's both. I mean,

I see the value in that. And also the, the challenge is, it's like, I'm walking around as a bit of an open wound. You know what I mean? Both in the world in general. And that's, um, that is really, um, difficult, but ultimately, um, I think, uh, productive and helpful. I hope. Yeah. I guess we'll see. We'll see. So listeners, thank you again for sticking with us. Yeah. And I think this long, long, long break. And I think what we, what we probably want to do is maybe bring in my mom.

Yes. To find out what this sort of last nine months has been like for her. So we can sort of catch up with her and, and just have a chat. I love chatting with Sandy Jacobs. Hello, how are you? Fine. Can you hear me good? I can, yeah.

So you said you had something you wanted to tell us about. You just listened to episode three. It was too long for one episode. Just was too much for you. It was too much at one episode. Just was too much for you. It was too much at one time. Here's the problem. By the time that people are hearing us talk about this, it will already have aired.

Yeah. What we're doing now is the interregnum after episode three. So they've all just listened to episode three a week ago, and now they're hearing you tell them that that episode was too long. Oh, no. Oh, no. You can cut that out. Oh, Mom.

No, we can't. We're raw here. We give them everything. Mom, we're going to have to get your notes earlier so that we can incorporate them into the episodes. But I do think you're wrong. Oh, okay I like that you and your mom can be honest with each other I appreciate the feedback, Mom It really means a lot

But you're just wrong So it has an R in the episode? Mom, you just gotta understand That you know all that information You know everything. Oh, I didn't know everything. Oh, you didn't? No.

What did you not know? What was new for you? What was the new stuff? I didn't know what was in the basement. I didn't know that he had things like videos set up in everybody's room. Well, maybe. We're not 100% sure on that, but maybe. Yeah.

I mean, you know, I didn't know anything about what was in the attic, actually. Yeah. So that I didn't know. Yeah. I mean, you know, I didn't know anything about what was in the attic, actually. Yeah. So that I didn't know. Yeah. And then I didn't know at all what the people were saying. Yeah. You know, those stories. Speaking of, how was that for you to hear all of these former neighbors of yours, you know, talking about that stuff. I think it was great, and I'll tell you why. Because at the time that things were happening,

that I was there, you know, when I was actually living there, I felt like they were all snubbing me. Really? Yeah. You felt outcasted. Yes, yeah. What about, obviously, there was a point near the end there where I got emotional.

What did you think? How was that for you? Did you? All right, Bob, are you going to get mad at me? No, I don't think so. What are you going to say? I wasn't sure if you were just acting or if it was real. Wow.

Wow. Because I know you. First of all, that is a testament to how good of an actor your mom thinks you are. I am. And secondly, to how infrequent such an emotional reaction that is for Danny. Because I was shocked by it, Sandy. That's right. That's right. I was utterly shocked by it.

I know. It didn't seem like him. Just like if i started crying in the middle of it i don't think you would think it was you know but do you so you think your theory is that i i manufactured that to to kind of create a moment that is not real for this podcast it was real but it was but i didn't think that you it was real i thought you created it like as an actor. It was a fake. Yeah. Yeah. Danny, how does it, how does it make you feel?

Okay. So don't put this in there. No mom, listen, we got to put this. Hold on. Let's just, Danny,

how does it make you feel that your mother? I mean, not good. Like, like, um, like, I've never,

I've never seen you cry over this stuff. But I think this talks, this speaks to, well, let me, let me first, let me answer that to tell you that it was 100% real. Yes. Um, and I think though, I think that you're, well, listen, I think that your, um, your reaction though is also, um, I don't know. It's a testament to something, which is that the adults in this situation, when I was a kid, like, of course it's real. Like, the things that were being discussed were so clearly painful and tragic and dark. Like, of course that would have a huge emotional effect on a child who lived in that environment. No, I didn't.

Not that I didn't think you as a child had a hard time. I knew you did. And you don't think that that would have any lasting effects on me as a grown-up? I didn't think that you, just like I don't do it myself. I don't cry over the stuff that Richard did. Yeah. Yeah, I don't cry over it. You know, so if you had to so you think

that any display of emotion then is is is fake because you wouldn't have that exact display of emotion no i just didn't think that you did i thought you were more like me yeah i mean the truth is though danny i i think that what sandy is saying it was right up until this like i i've never have you often in your earlier life cried over this stuff like no i haven't um so i think when i told you one time i told you something that but that dad did and you and and you said you you're i said what's your reaction to that and And you said, I feel sorry for him. When I was a child, you said? Yes. Well, I'm a kid.

Like, of course, I'm just trying to, I'm doing so many things in that moment. I'm trying to protect you, your emotions. That's what I would be doing as a child. Oh, okay. Like trying to help you feel like this is all okay by telling you that I'm okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a big part of all this. Well, now I feel bad because I probably didn't,

I did the best I can trying to take you away from that, but I couldn't really because of dad, because of the lawsuits and stuff. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I. Do you feel like I didn't do enough? Yeah, I guess. I mean, I feel like I didn't do enough. I mean, I, I felt like I did it Do I think it was enough? No. Do I think that you could have done more? No. I mean, you were doing the best that you could. It was not enough. It was both the best that you could do. And it was also not nearly enough. I know. What could

have I done? Well, I'm saying I think you did the best that you could do. Yeah. But ultimately, I mean, look, there were so many times when I was a kid where I was making choices and saying things to protect and help you emotionally when it really should have been the other way around. When I tell you I'm not like dad, I think the response, I mean, that's me trying to cheer you up, trying to help you. Yeah. And, and I, and I think that not nearly enough time was spent on, on the flip side, which is what, where it should have been because I was the child. Yeah. Well, I know.

I don't know what. But as I'm saying, like, I don't, I don't blame you. The situation was fucked. Ultimately, there was no way to stop Richard from doing all the. The situation was fucked. Yeah. Ultimately, there was no way to stop Richard from doing all the things that he was doing. but I mean, I would be lying if I said that I didn't have some anger towards you and to every adult in my life.

Yeah. From that I grew up with for not doing enough to protect me from that chaos. Yeah, I know. I don't know what, I didn't know what else I could do. No, no, I get it. I understand. It's not an easy. I feel like I let you down.

I think everybody did. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I mean't know. Yeah. I mean, yes. But at the same time, mom, you were doing the best that you were making every choice that you could possibly make. Like, I don't know how it could have gone differently. Let me ask you this, Sandy. Now, in retrospect, with the benefit of time looking back, is there anything that you would do differently? retrospect with the benefit of time looking back, is there anything that you would do differently? I couldn't have, because I mean, if I kidnapped you and took you out of state, that might have done it, but that, but I, I couldn't, uh, I, that's it. I mean, I couldn't have done that because he would have chased me down. I can tell you what it would have been for me. For me, it would have been not an action like that, but your emotional stability would have been like you many times were unable to kind of be the adult emotionally. Right. Yeah.

Right. And I oftentimes felt like it was my job to help you through it. Yeah. Right. And I oftentimes felt like it was my job to help you through it. Yeah. And so it's not for me, it wasn't about, oh, you could have taken this action to move us to a different city. It had everything to do with just on a day to day basis, being the solid rock that that would have helped me more. Well, I don't I don't know how I don't know how to do that. I didn't know how to do that. I understand, which is why I'm saying you did the best that you could given who you are. And given the situation.

I mean, like, you know, Sandy is a person, you know, and any person dealing with the onslaught that Richard unleashed, I think is at times going to struggle to be the solid rock adult. 100%. You know, that's not just on who you are, Sandy. I don't know of anybody that would necessarily be able to withstand that unscathed. Well, I did try to do some things. Like when you called and wanted me to, and I could see that it was enough that you had, I would come over and pick you up and take you home. Even though I knew Richard was going to be mad about that.

Yes, yes. You know, I did stuff like that. Yes. I picked you up when I knew he wasn't going to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go to events. Right, right, right. Because I would wait like hours for him to pick me up somewhere.

Yeah, yeah. That was a weird thing about Richard, by the way, is that he was so determined to have you and your brother, and yet he was just AWOL for so many pickups and missing things and just he would get distracted by things. Because the having us was in terms of victory. It wasn't, you know what I mean? Right, right, right.

He didn't necessarily want to do all the things that that entailed. Yeah, it's weird though. Sometimes he did, so I don't know. Let's go back to what you said earlier about the neighbors and how there was something kind of gratifying about hearing them talk today because back then you felt shunned. Yeah. Like, do you have any desire having heard that now to go back there and,

and see the, any of those people, you know, and talk to them again, see the house again. Did you have any reactions like that? Yeah, I kind of did, but I felt like if I, if I thought to myself, well, if I went up there and just asked them, can I come in? They would say no. I felt like.

But you felt the desire to. I mean, that would be in interest of yours. Yes. But I feel like you'd have to set it up for me because I don't think they would do it just for me. You think that if you went to that house and you said, I'm Danny's mom, can I come in? You think that they would say no?

I think they would put me off. Even now? Even after hearing that episode? Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm not you. I don't know if they'd have an interest in talking to me. And I don't know what I'd say, really.

Interesting. Is it interesting, Danny? What do you think about that, Darren? I feel like that's not true. I think that if you drove over there right now, well, yeah, that, that, and you explain, cause they, they obviously are well aware of you. I mean, that they would say, yes, come in, take a look around. I think not only, but I think the most interesting aspect of it, do think it's interesting darren is is that is is yes i think you're totally right but what's also interesting is is that my mom is somebody who hears that yeah and then her takeaway is

they wouldn't let me they wouldn't let me in there's something that is interesting that is interesting like that mom that i think speaks to i I don't know, a real level of insecurity. Because to me, that interview is so filled with love and forgiveness, you know, and generosity of spirit that I don't know how, it's just interesting to me. I just felt like instead of feeling like the joy of all those people accepting me, I was thinking about instead the way they acted at the time, shunning me. But not all of them. You're saying all of them? I thought it was just that one. It was just that one, but all the other ones were invited to the shower. But the other ones didn't shun you, the other neighbors.

Well, you know, I never really talked to them that much. So they didn't shun you, you just didn't have a relationship with them. No, right. So you are over... They never came over to, except for Debbie across the street, they never really came over to do an... Oh, except for Debbie across the street, they never really came over to do an, oh, except for also Jill. Is this going to be a scene from The Jerk?

Sorry, Sandy, what did you say? You know, Jill and Sejal and I forgot the boys. Yeah, the Gandhis. But I mean, did you invite the other people over? No. Well, why would they come over? You know how people used to bring over the welcome wagon or the, they didn't invite you over. But I mean, like you, so you, um, you never interacted with, you didn't have like friendly neighborly waves and conversations and whatnot with people.

I wonder if what you're talking about though, is really something that I've experienced too. And I expressed in that interview, which is a guilt by association, like, like you're talking about, oh, they never came over. But like, clearly, they, of course, they would want to avoid dad, right? They wouldn't want to have anything to do with dad. And in your mind, though, like your association with him that the feelings I had towards him extend to you in your head which may not be accurate that's actually what i thought yeah i thought because he went out and stole all their newspapers when that article came out of the out of the uh you know the saint louis post dispatch about his disbarment or something yes yeah and he stole their newspapers he stole their news he went down the block and stole everybody's newspaper. So they wouldn't see it.

And I felt like I knew all that. And then I knew about the people who told us we couldn't go to the Elks Club. I knew about that. I mean, this all stems from dad's behavior. It's not about their perspective on you, their opinion about you. And in your head, the way that they felt about dad is the same that they felt. Yeah, I felt so. And to go back to what Danny highlighted earlier as interesting, it still is.

Like, Sandy, you're still having this reaction that, oh, they're going to say no to me if I want to look around or the neighbors are like you still on some level feel like they don't like you. Is that what I'm hearing? I'm yeah. I still think that maybe they don't. Yeah. So, so why should I go over there and, you know, and, and, and press the issue up. Right. Yeah. Something up. I know. I understand. I understand. Well, maybe we'll find a way to, uh, get you some, uh, closure too. And this, we'll find a way to get you some closure too in this, when this is all said and done. So as we wind this thing down, we want to give people a sense of what's going to be on episode four, the next episode in the podcast. And that is going to be an interesting journey because- It's a lot about you. It's you.

Actually, Sandy. Episode four is we get into your life and your early dating life with richard and um how it is that you and richard got together um and how you ultimately decided to marry that man are you excited about that episode i guess that does not sound very excited. That's going to get people riled up. Should the listeners be excited about that episode? The listeners should really be excited. Why? You're not excited. Oh, man.

Man, Sandy, when you feel like you need to do some marketing for us, your energy changes completely. You just get like super animated. Do you have some anxiety about that episode? Yeah, because I don't really remember exactly what we, you know,

what it entailed. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. I'm sensing a general ambivalence from you for this whole process. No, no. I'm excited.

I am excited about it and I want to do it. I understand if you have ambivalence. I mean, this is a lot. This is a lot going back to a lot of stuff that you probably don't want to think about and haven't thought about. Like, I get it if that's the case. And, you know, in the podcast, we are starting to use some interviews that we did with you like seven or eight years ago um way before we even thought of doing a podcast what did i do an interview we interviewed you in 2017 um when we were when we were researching for the when we were right just beginning to think about writing a tv pilot exactly and so there's and some of these interviews are in the podcast it's just the three of us around like Danny's computer microphone.

And I'm burping my son. Yes, exactly. As a baby. And the reason I bring it up, though, is that who knew when we first be sitting here making episode after episode of a podcast, diving into the real story of your life and your life with Richard. Wow. I can't wait to hear that. Same with us, man. Same. Now that's the kind of reaction we're looking for.

Here's a sneak peek of episode four of how to destroy everything you know wait you so you think you think that what happened here is he invited you to this party said i want you to clean my house you did not do that you showed up for the party and then to get back at you, he messed with a drink to make you sick? Yes. And the only reason I think that is because I wouldn't have thought that. This other girl, she was like in the bathroom with me and she said, I think Richard did the same thing to me at another party. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at iknowrichardjacobs at gmail.com. Also, I'm going to be honest with you guys.

We need all the help we can get. So if you want to support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff we're going to share. Pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons. Also, please find us on our socials, specifically Instagram, at howtodestroyeverything.

You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs. Special shout-out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.