How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy an Irish Rabbi

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren interview Stephen Kearin, a mentor to Danny over the last several decades (and Danny's self-described "Irish Rabbi"). Stephen shares his own incredible family story and the boys try to gleam some lessons that Danny can apply to his own relationship with Richard.  For tickets to Danny's improv show at the Groundlings on Thursday, March 6th at 10 PM, head here: https://groundlings.com/shows/theunderstudies HTDE Live Show: https://www.stl-style.com/event-details/how-to-destroy-a-live-show-q-a Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and please don't forget to subscribe, rate and reveiw!  If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody! Hello everybody! We just wanted to jump in here before the episode starts to tell you about a really exciting thing that's coming up. Big news. Big news. Danny and I are going to be doing our first ever live show and Q&A. Woo! And it's taking place in St. Louis, Missouri. Back to the scenes of the crime, baby. Oh yes. It's going to be on Valentine's Day Eve Thursday February 13th at STL Style in St. Louis Yeah, it's a store that our friends own and we're just super jazzed about this doors open at 6 show starts at 7 We're gonna have special guests. There's gonna be surprises. It's gonna be fantastic Maybe Danny and I'll get into some kind of physical fight. Who knows fisticuffs? Tickets are going fast. So check the show notes for this episode.

There'll be a link to the site where you can buy them. And we'll see you on February 13th. And now on with the episode. Bonjour! Ça va? Salut! Ça va? Hello everybody. That was just a little bit of the, a little taste of France for you, Darren and I.

Fun fact. That was just a little bit of the little taste of France for you Darren and I fun fact We're We did an abroad program in France Shout out to Pierre Alain my French exchange student. As well as my French brother Ludovic Le Verge That was not how we intended to start this but that's how we started it this is how to destroy everything I'm Danny Jacobs. This is How to Destroy Everything. I'm Danny Jacobs. This is my best friend, Darren Grotsky on the other side.

That's me. Hey, you know what this podcast is about? Let me take a step at this, Danny. Okay, go for it. This is a podcast that is about Danny's late narcissistic father and all of the many ripples of destruction that he left in his wake. Huh? How'd it do?

I mean, what do you need me for? That was fantastic. I don't. I really don't. Goodbye. You really don't. So, guys and gals and everything in between, today we've got a really special interregnum for you all.

Oh, yes. We are going to be playing for you an interview that we've done with a man named Stephen Kieran, who is a really important person in my life. We've talked about improv a bunch and what it means to me. And Stephen Kieran is a guy that I met when I was 18 years old. He came down to Stanford to teach a workshop in improv, and within two minutes I said to myself, that's the greatest improviser that I've ever seen.

He is. He's kind of an improv god. And over the years, I got to know him both at school and then we both live in Los Angeles, and he's become a real kind of mentor to me, both in improv and and in life and a really important person. And one of the reasons why we wanted to interview him was because, you know, he has a really complicated family situation as well, which you'll hear about. And I think he's got some really important things to say, both generally and to me, about forgiveness and about how he's handled the difficult traumas in his life in the present day

and how he's kind of tried to move on that I think are really relevant to my own experience and hopefully will feel relevant to you guys as well. So without further ado, here he is, Mr. Stephen Kieran. Hello, Steve Kieran. Hello, Danny. Stephen Kieran. Hello, Steve Kieran. Hello, Danny. Hello, Darren. Hi, Steve Kieran. Thank you for joining us.

Actually, normally we have, when we have come people, have come people. Company? I thought you were saying company. When we have company. We have people come on. We usually have them introduce themselves and say how they know me. But I think I would like to say how I know you, if I might.

You might, yes. OK, so I first met you, Steve and Kieran, when I was 18 years old as a freshman at Stanford. And you would come down to Stanford as some improvisers from the Bay Area Theater sports, some often did, to teach a workshop to us, the Stanford improvisers. And I remember, what I remember about that first time

that I saw you improvise and teach was as if I was suddenly seeing like some kind of alien from another planet. Like I had known what improv was and I was doing it, I'd been doing it for probably at that point a few months. But then suddenly it became clear to me that what I thought improvisation was was not at all what it was or what it could be. And that was my introduction to you who I to this day say is the best, you are the best improviser I've ever seen in my life. And from that point onward, the next

thing I remember was that I saw you perform in Three for All, which is the three-person improv group that you did for many, many years. And once again, my mind was just totally blown. And then, and so I knew you kind of very tangentially. Now what I don't remember was how that sort of changed. I know that, I think I maybe reached out to you when I got to Los Angeles. I'm not 100% sure, but maybe you can fill in the details. But what I know is that over the past, I mean, 20 years,

you have become how I describe it and I've told you is my personal rabbi, the Irish rabbi. And you have become a really big mentor in my life, just kind of both about improv, but about being an artist and about being a human being. And that is the nature of our relationship. And you've also guested in my two-man improv group, The Understudies, become three person in those circumstances.

And acted in our podcast in an earlier episode. Yes, oh, that's right. Oh my gosh, how could I forget? How could I forget in episode two, you were the beleaguered government employee. Who finally gave in. Who eventually, yeah. To the royal manner. The royal manner, yes.

So did I miss anything just in terms of who we are to each other? No, no. I don't think you missed anything. I mean, look, one thing you didn't say is how I saw you very early on was you were this standout to me in so many different ways and continue to be that as an improviser and certainly obviously as friends. But I believe, look, when I went to Stanford, I came from a family where people didn't go to college.

My brother actually gave me shit for going to college, that kind of family. So it's like, and that's true, by the way, that actually happened. So when I went to Stanford, I was, I remember waiting in line to buy coffee in the bookstore and I fully expected them to burst in at any moment and say, seize him, seize the intruder.

Yeah, sure. Yes. And I was completely, I felt completely over my head. So to be on that campus, but what I remember most about that day is that you were completely and utterly disarming to me because of your heart. Your heart was out there and the way you worked in the way you just talked to me and you just gave me, I don't know, your heart was really so obviously open.

You could say broken if you want over time. I mean, I mean that, I mean, a lot of times as you well know, it's got to go that way. And that is how it's been ever since, is when I think of you, I think of your heart. Big, broken heart, if you will. Wow, yeah. I mean, well, and the one other thing that I wanna mention is that, you know,

this is an episode of the podcast that is sort of, you know, in this podcast, we are toggling back and forth between the past and the present. And, and one of the really interesting things that has developed in our relationship over the last year ish plus, is, you know, you and I will occasionally, you know, every couple of months get together for a breakfast or a lunch or something. Right. And it turned out that we were both sort of on these kind of parallel paths

in terms of exploring our own family situations. And you, in fact, you know, you had started with a one-man show that I saw, which was incredible, you started developing that into a podcast of your own, which is equally amazing. It is. And I think you and I were just sort of,

I think at some point just staring at each other, being like, how insane is it that we both, we both are kind of exploring this, sort of in the same soup at the same time. Yeah, yes, totally. I mean, again, like you said, it started with the one man show and I didn't do a lot of performances of that show. Maybe I did 15 total between North and South, San Francisco and here.

And then over time, as I started to work on it and try and write the book version of it that became sort of an audio book that then my producer said, wait a minute, this is obviously, you know, right now, that should be a episodic podcast. That's when suddenly your podcast burst onto the scene. And next thing you know, we're having these breakfasts where we're checking in with each other.

Mostly, less like talking shop about the actual mechanics of it all, but more like what is this Nantucket sleigh ride like for you, you know? And also, Danny, I'll be honest with you, and maybe it's annoying, but I'm very protective of you. I do. I look out for you in my mind. I think of that as your improv rabbi. But I do. It's like,

I've been very attuned as I listen to the podcast of sort of how you're doing, and I'll say as much, right? Even, yeah. Even my sister, my oldest sister, who is the matriarch, right? Of our insane, exploded family. She's like, how's Danny? She checks in around that.

Just this very morning, I had a long talk with Lisa, and she goes, well, you know, see how he's doing. It's like, you know, she's completely because she knows. She ran away. You know, the difference is Lisa ran away from all of the insanity and came back to get us. Wow. And always felt like she failed us. Can you give us just a little kind of a primer about your, I know that's impossible to do in a short blurb, but just in terms of what your kind of family's story is?

Yeah, it's gonna be challenging, but here goes. Basically, both of my parents, it bears mentioning, came out of like wild, and I do hate when words become corporatized and part of the thing, but it's trauma. Let's just call it that. Mad trauma on my mother's side of Irish, the Devlins, you know, and from Jersey City. She came from Jersey City and her mother was sleeping with a Catholic priest and he ended up kidnapping them all, taking them to California and all of that. I know that's just the beginning on my mom's side, but obviously years and

her mother, my grandmother was very, very sick and was an addict, which is quite often the lens I try and look through. That was my mom's side very briefly. God, there's so much more to say. And then on my father's side, my father grew up on a farm, one of 14 kids, the Karens, Irish, they were miners and farmers, just hard living. And where was that? That was in Ramona, South Dakota. My dad, my mother couldn't be more city

and my father couldn't be more country. And so my father ran away to World War II to be with his brothers. My dad lied to get into World War II and he ended up being part of the second wave of paratroopers, the second wave after Normandy and helping liberate north of Paris. And that was all combat. Like they dropped in and found the guys that were hanging around, my dad said. They were chasing them to Paris. Yeah, so mopping up, he called it. Then he went into the National Guard

and then straight into Korea to even more combat. So that was my dad. We used to say, two wars, one divorce, no therapy. Ha ha ha. This episode is brought to you by Apostrophe. Danny, recently my wife and I were having a date night. Oh. I decided to shave my face.

Ooh. Nice, clean, shaved face. Oh. But when I did, I discovered something horrible date night. Oh. And I decided to shave my face. Ooh. Nice clean shaved face. Oh. When I did, I discovered something horrible. Uh-oh. I have dry skin. Oh, do you? Like extremely dry skin on my face.

Like kind of embarrassingly dry skin. And it was kind of a nightmare. I was like, oh my god, I'm going to look awful for this date night. So what did you do? Well, I contacted Apostrophe. Oh, yeah. That's a great call.

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which is to just moisturize the heck out of my skin. And I know that apostrophe's gonna be able to help with that. Well, absolutely, because what I loved about my experience is that they give you access to an expert Derm team. You get your own tailored treatment plan, and it's really, really easy to sign up for your first visit. Yeah, so we have a special deal for our audience. Get your first visit for only $5 at apostrophe.com slash

destroy when you use our code destroy. That's a savings of $15. This code is only available to our listeners. To get started, just go to apostrophe.com slash destroy and click get started. Then use our code destroy at sign up and you'll get your first visit for only $5. Thank you, Apostrophe, for sponsoring this episode. So what happened is our family was starting to really, really fall apart through my father's, was starting to really, really fall apart through my father's drinking

and then him quitting drinking cold turkey when he drove off the overpass at Woodman Avenue. And my mother's spiraling mental illness. And then when her mother took her life on Christmas morning and blamed her, I gotta just tell this guys. Yeah, please. That propelled us South 50 miles South to Mission Viejo and as I say in the book it was known back then as the

California promise and this is how I describe it it's as if California put its big golden arm around my family and pulled us in close and said, some real crazy shit's about to happen to you all. I promise. And California kept its word. And so our family went on this wild odyssey of just falling to absolute shambles and fights and attempted murder and homelessness from age 11. For three years, I was homeless.

I was, we were on the road and my sister Lisa was trying to gain custody. She was already had run away. Anyway, all of that to say it just kept going. But that's the sort of the, that's the hot molten core of the story. Look, I don't know how, but you know, I forgive my parents.

I love them in ways I never knew. Only through years of obviously, they say any pain you don't transform, you transmit. That's Richard Rohr. So yeah, you gotta get in there and do what he calls shadow boxing or and and Just get in there and I just had to stop blaming in my own life of what was going on in my own life I have a question for you Kieran because as you're telling that just the the cliff notes of an extraordinary story

And then I was thinking about what you said earlier When you first met Danny. And the first thing you noticed was his heart. I'm thinking about both of you having gone through your, here's that word again, traumas, and then finding performance, improv, acting, et cetera. And Danny and I have talked about what improv did for him. And again, it's so interesting for you to say the first thing you noticed was his heart,

because I feel like before he discovered performance, in a lot of ways, he was just hiding that heart. He was covering it with, you know, still performing in life, but in a, in a, maybe in an inauthentic way, just for his own amusement or protection. But then, yeah, I mean, I saw it too when I visited. Well, yeah. Um, when I visited Stanford and saw Danny in plays, but especially in improv, it was like a, like an opening of sorts. And I don't know if you had a similar,

I'm throwing a lot at you here, but like for, in terms of Danny, but also in terms of you and what performance opened up for you. Well, it's a really good question because for me, the reason that improvisation opened up so much for me is because I didn't realize what I was bringing to it with some wild superpowers that came out of surviving, like hypervigilance is a result of trauma, right?

And when I came home, I didn't know, is there gonna be an ambulance in my driveway? Is there gonna be a cop in my driveway? Will I have a driveway? You know, all of these things. So all of that stuff completely, you know, what looks like a scar in a way when it recedes. I mean look I'm gonna use a really This is very corny Yosemite Valley if anyone has ever seen Yosemite Valley is a scar it is a scar a glacier tore through that

That rock tore through it and then receded. And when it receded, it left this unbelievable beauty, like unbelievable, sheer, sharp. I mean, it's not soft beauty in many places. In other places, it's like raw beauty. So for me, coming out of the family I came out of, it lent itself to improvisation in ways I could never imagine, especially in the era that came out of, it lent itself to improvisation in ways I could never imagine,

especially in the era that we're in, which is a new form of theater, which is narrative or long form, but more narrative theater. So when I saw Danny, what I was really seeing was his ability to track so many things all at the same time, because he didn't know what the fuck was going to go on at home growing up. So if you walk out and you are basically screwed in an art form, you start from that place,

you're able to pick up micro offers. You add to that the fact that you've been bashed about in so many ways, whether you acknowledge it or not, that you've been bashed about in so many ways, that whether you acknowledge it or not, that you have access over time to that part of yourself, that you're able to express it and even act it out. And I don't like saying it's cathartic or you're really working through stuff. I don't like that, because again, it sounds too much like sound bites,

but it is really what that is. You're actually, And how about this? People are like, oh, how can you be an introvert? I consider myself an introvert. It's like you can hide behind a mask and feel incredibly safe. You can get out in front of 10,000 people or more, or millions of people. And if you're behind the mask, which we had to develop.

Danny, growing up, you were hiding behind the mask of sheer likability and affability. I mean, you're truly one of the nicest people I've ever met. Just simply, you just exude a form of goodness, man. I don't know how else to put it. And I know there's- Definitely a mask.

Sorry, go ahead. Yes, right. Let's get real. Thank you, Darren. A touchstone. We'll get to's definitely a mask. Yes, right. Let's get real. Thank you, Darren. A touchstone. We'll get to you in a minute. Anyway, but with Danny, no. But you know what I'm saying?

It is a mask. So that's a big answer. But I got to say, superpowers for improvisers, anyone who's come out of some shit, man, and is willing to actually process it, those can be, it's like you can slingshot around the dark side of the moon and get home in a way, if you're up for it. I think that is super interesting.

I mean, just one second, Danny, because when you said that, like, you know, I don't wanna go too deep down the improv rabbit hole here, but I think we've all seen improv that we don't love. And I feel like when I've seen improv that I don't love, it's just, it's like people being like, I think this will be funny. I'm gonna try to be funny.

Like, yes, exactly. And I think you two who, you know, are certainly the two best improvisers that I've seen, there is like, you said like those little micro offers or whatever that you're picking up on and then sort of running with it. I feel like that's so true and so interesting. And you guys both had this in common

and maybe that's why you were drawn to each other in part. Oh, truly. I will, what I really responded to you about what you said is that, like, because I still remember the first, the very first moment I ever sort of improvised in a kind of a structured setting. And it was my freshman year in school, and I wasn't even in the Stanford Improvisers yet. I went to their show and they asked, they were doing, what's it called, Australian,

Kirim, and there's like three person teams. Yeah, that's how I know it, yeah. Yeah, and they were doing a theater sports show and they only had three people on a team and so this team wanted to do a standing, sitting, kneeling, lying scene, which for anybody that doesn't know, at any point in the scene, one person in each,

it has to be in one of those positions. If it ever changes, you have to scramble to readjust. For some reason, this team was like, yeah, we're just going to get a volunteer from the audience to just be our fourth person in this scene. It wasn't like how you'd normally take care of an audience member and give them guardrails. They were just like, yeah, you're gonna be in the scene

and you're gonna do standing, sitting, kneeling, lying. And I remembered this feeling a second into doing this thing that I was, like my brain exploded. And I, and I, and I, and what, something became very clear to me in that moment, which was like, I felt, and this is, I mean, I don't mean to be, to be braggado, which was like, I felt, and this is, I mean, I don't mean to be braggadocious, but like I felt immediately like,

oh, I know exactly how to do this. And I'm not saying that like I had skill yet, cause I didn't, it would be years and years, but that whatever the core of that, of the improvisational spirit was, was very, very apparent to me immediately. And what I'm hearing from you is that like, and I think you're right, is like what that core is,

is the kind of the soul of my trauma in a way. Yeah, quite often. Yeah, they're related. I wonder, Stephen, Kieran, if you could talk a little bit about, I guess my question is, what are your concerns about me doing this? As you've been sort of watching this process unfold

and us checking in, I'm just curious about what your worries are about this process. Being, for lack of a better term, exposed to the world in a way like, I believe you reference someone at a little league game walking up on you. And it's like stuff like that. It's like, I think, you know, I think that's mostly it. Like I feel so protective of you that it's like seeing

a reality star, so-called reality stars. It's all with editing, of course, we're not really knowing who these people are. But if someone is known for just being who they are, that's a different experience. You know things about them. This literally happened the other day. I'm flying home from Austin.

I look up and someone is looking right at me. And this is someone I won't say who it is, but very, very well known reality star, for lack of a better term. And I just knew, even with editing and producing and how it's all put together, I knew so many things about this person. And they're looking at me and they know nothing about me.

And just that imbalance, because I know you and love you, I, you know, I don't know if it's an Irish thing. I don't know whether it's, you know, the lyrics to Bonanza, if you got to fight with any one of us, you got to fight with me. Now I came up in a family where fighting was encouraged and was a really good thing. It's like, no, no, this is not good.

You know, it was, but I do, I grew up, you know, with siblings, my cousins who became my brothers. And you know, there's just that part of me. I see you as family. So I worry, that's all. I mean, I don't know how that lands with you, but this idea that I just don't want people to take advantage of the fact that they,

of your vulnerability, because look, you're helping, in the end, you are helping an enormous amount of people, the two of you, I believe, by doing what you're doing. I'm not gonna call it brave or all that bullshit, because I don't go for that. I don't like that saying, you're being of great service. It's just that's, because it's all been taken by billboards and shit lately.

I'm sorry, I just don't like that. But can you tell I majored in literature? I was told. Yeah, not anyway. That's all. That's a long answer to your question. No, no. I mean, look, in terms of how it lands, I mean, honestly, it's very comforting to me. Calling all sellers, Salesforce is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here, innovation isn't a buzzword, it's a way of life. You'll be solving customer challenges faster with agents, winning with purpose,

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Tampa, Florida. Fly to Tampa on Porter Airlines to see why it's so te-rific. On your way there, relax with free beer, wine, and snacks, free fast streaming Wi-Fi, and no middle seats. You've never flown to Florida like this before, so you'll land in Tampa ready to explore. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. You have been a really important, I think, touchstone for me during this to kind of just force me and sometimes to look at why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, there's a time in particular I'm thinking of, there was a couple, not, not pretty recently,

where I think it was like I was discussing with you my, my uncertainty about maybe it was either something about Karen, who is the name that we're using for my family member, or maybe it was some, some part, something that I had done of my own behavior that I wasn't too proud of. And I, you'd asked me why I want to share it. And I said something like, oh, because if I'm going to do this, I should go all the way. And I think you even said, you said, well, I think that's macho bullshit. And I'm just wondering if you could say what you meant by that.

Well, I mean, sometimes it's macho bullshit. I mean, it's, it's like, we, we, we think we've got to be, again, it sounds to me sometimes that things make their way into our culture and we end up saying them and we never stop and think, do I really believe that? So this idea of going all the way, I don't know about that. Maybe you can just go far enough without laying yourself so bare that you have no boundaries and that you're suddenly exposed in a way that is not good for you or those around you, that is your family. So I mean, this idea of if you're gonna go, go all the way, that sounds familiar.

And so I always sometimes like to slow down. I mean, look, we're doing our stories in very different styles, very different. And that I think, you guys are like investigative journalists and detectives and entertainers all at the same time. Yeah. It's really extraordinary how you're going about it and that you have each other and it's very,

and mine is like the painting Guernica. That's what I think. I said that to my sister, you know, is this the horrors and yet it's not a literal representation, but it is an emotional telling, and it's out there, and it's raw in places and other places. But stylistically, they're different. But I, you know, after I did the one-man show,

someone walked up on Sheila, you know, after I did the one man show, someone walked up on Sheila, my sister, and I'm like, ooh, wrong sister to walk up on. And she said, are all those stories true? And Sheila said, you don't know the half of it, honey. Probably with one leg up on the wall, kind of leaning back with her arms crossed, that kind of look. But it's like for someone to even ask that or to say it in that way is if we're somehow

making up parts of this. Now the telling of it is going to be like, it is, it's like a mural or a song. I was listening to Joni Mitchell last night being interviewed, and she said that, she used to, you know, early on was a folk singer, so they were singing about these ideals, these ideals, and she heard Bob Dylan say, use the word I in one of his songs, and he was singing about personal experience.

And she said like, that's allowed? And that led to her writing the song, Both Sides Now. I've looked at life from both sides now. So that suddenly opened that whole thing up, you know? Yeah. So there's different ways to tell the story. And by the way, I think, feel like we should say, Kieran,

the name of your podcast is Toughen Up. Toughen Up, yeah. Yeah. So if anybody wants to listen, which I highly, highly recommend you do, it's just such an incredible This is the way that you you use every kind of ounce of who you are to tell this story in a way that Only you could and I just I just love it so much Likewise, thank you very much. Yeah, it's on sub stack for now and

Probably some other platforms. I'm not even aware of that I should probably know. Do you feel like your experience of doing that I mean can you talk about the ways that it changed you do you or do you think it did? I think it did. I you know look the one-man show was written out of anger. I was not getting the work I wanted in Hollywood, let's just say it. I wasn't getting, I felt like I had no control, huh, Darren? Yeah. I felt like I didn't, I didn't, look, I'm a singer-songwriter, basically.

That's what I realized, what I'm tooled to do. What is improvisation? You're performing and writing your own material. It happens to be on your feet in the moment, but at least you're writing your own material. And yes, it's with an ensemble. But for me, out of what it gave me is some agency. And I got to a point where I said, you know what? Fuck this.

That's really where I got. I was so angry. I thought, what have I got that people can't take away, so to speak? And that is my memories and also using what I got, I'll reverse engineer off of what I have, what I can do as a performer. You want some sound effects,

there's gonna be sound effects. You want me to try some different voices. You want me to channel some different voices. You want me to channel some of this frustration and anger through the character of my father. You got it. So I started writing through those channels in a way. And what it did is it started to free me up. Then the show kind of went to sleep for a little while. And guess what? I had the same thing happen. It's like Alan Watts has this great line, which is, I can't do it with his incredible voice, but which basically

when you get the message, hang up the phone. So it's like, Steven, are you getting the fucking message yet? Obviously you got to write and perform your own material. And if it's fiction, that's fine. But if it's nonfiction, let's go, man. So eventually I got to a point. I was pictured Jackson Pollock, you know, he was trying to fit in and trying to fit in and was could do could paint is, you know, like any other painter who could do any kind of still life. And you could paint, you could really paint a portrait. And then something was calling him up to the barn. Get up to the barn. And I think what drove him up there was like, fuck this man.

And he went up there and that's what we see. We see his expression in that way, which is a pretty extreme version. But I just, it's so funny. I don't know why I can talk easier if I put it in relationship to other art forms. But it changed me that way. It emboldened me to just get out there and to do it.

And also just to keep, I mean, thank God for my wife, man. Cause stopping is as you guys know, sometimes you just wanna stop. I wanna stop, I don't wanna do this anymore. It was not an option. Joe just wouldn't let me stop. No, no. And then my sisters wouldn't let me stop

cause they got more involved this time. That's why they're listed as story editors. It's like, give me a break. They started filling in memories I never had. I was like, I don't remember that. And they're like, you were too, because you were a baby. Right. And I was like, okay.

So how about you? I mean, I guess you talk about that all the time, but I mean, if you had to distill it down, I mean, how has this changed you? Well, I think, and this is something that we've talked about, but I think that, first of all, I think it has sort of connected me to my emotional core in a way

that I've never experienced before. There's sort of whatever those masks were, or those things that were keeping me from sort of connecting to... I could always connect to, like, anger very easily. But not sadness and not shame. Yeah. Yeah. It's covering it up often. It's called a second... Anger is considered a secondary emotion. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Yep. Yeah, so whatever those primary ones, were harder for me, and now more and more, they are less hard to kind of access. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a big way. And I think another... more and more they are less hard to access. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's a big way. And I think another, I mean, I think it's in an ongoing way. It is sort of, it's as if this thing has taken my family

and tossed everybody up and we're all sort of like coming down in different places. You know what I mean? Like it's reorienting the kind of DNA of my family. And that's very much in process. Like I don't know where everything is gonna land, but I can feel that things changing rapidly. So.

And when you say family, Danny, how far does that go? I mean, would you obviously, you know, your immediate family? I mean, yeah, no, I mean, I guess it's my immediate family, but then also my cousin, also my, you know, I'm getting my extended family, like, like not blood related, who I haven't even known very well. Like I've been connecting with them because they have a relationship or they used to have a relationship with Karen

and we're sort of bonding over that. And it's sort of, so like, like I have certain relationships, like my relationship with Karen that has been severed, but then sort of replacing that is these other new connections with family that I didn't even know that well going into this that are sort of coming together.

So that's interesting. Yeah, I mean, out of the darkness, right? It's gonna, I'm trying not to sound sentimental here. The light is gonna get through somehow. I don't understand it. I don't have a name for it other than, I don't know. I don't know. Something always finds a way.

Yeah, yeah. Through incredible despair. And maybe that's what, yeah. As they say in Jurassic Park, life finds a way. Life finds a way. I had the same thought. Okay. So there.

Okay. Life finds a way. I just want to say that I just love you so much. You are such a real light in my life and have been for years and years. I feel so fortunate to know you as an artist and as a person and as a friend and as a mentor All of it. I just I cannot tell you how how much you mean to me. So thank you so much Oh, thank you so much. Thank you, Danny. I love you. I love you too and and Darren I like you so much Because I don't know you

But I'm going to love you. I know, you know what? I do love you. I do love you. He loved the idea of him. Oh God, man. I love that man. You are correct.

He is a gem of a human. If my dad was an almost mensch, Stephen Kiernan is real-mench. A real Irish-mench. Yes. That was fantastic. And speaking of fantastic, it is now time for us to bring in the great, cue her music, the fantastic, the one and only, Sandy Jacobs!

Hi, Mom! Hi, Mrs. Jacobs! Hi, Mom. Hi, Darren. Hi, Mrs. Jacobs. Hi, Darren. Great to see you. Great to see you too. I called you Mrs. Jacobs for old time's sake. I know.

That was a kid. So, Mom, this is the interregnum after episode 11, how to destroy Australia. I think, as we already talked to you with you about Australia and that whole thing in episode 11. So I think maybe we should just dive into this to what we're gonna do today. Yeah, so Sandy and Danny,

we received a question from a member of our Patreon community, patreon.com. Megan T, I believe. Yes, that's right, patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. Who asked a really interesting question, Megan T., and I wanted to read it to you, Sandy and Danny, and just sort of get an answer from you guys and maybe incite some kind of discussion here.

Okay. So Megan T. asks, I wondered if Danny had ever considered something after listening to the latest episode. Do you think perhaps that the decision to create your own schedule as a child was to stop your mom from hurting? That you could see how depressed and sad she was

from all the abuse that your dad put her through, and so you kind of martyred yourself to make it stop. Perhaps that's why there is an underlying anger towards your mom that you talked about in past episodes, or why you get annoyed sometimes that she doesn't get angry at your dad because your inner child saved her from him and didn't get a thank you for it.

I might be completely miles off the mark, but just as a listener, fan, and victim of a narcissistic parent too, I wanted to share. That's interesting, That's very interesting. The part that doesn't ring true to me about that is anything about, like, not getting a thank you or something is not... does not feel relevant to it. But I do...

One thing that I had not considered was that in part, that decision, so this is something we talked about, it was several episodes ago at this point, but the decision to end the back-and-forth and the chaos of my schedule with my dad was in no small part about you, mom. I think that that's true and I hadn't considered that until that. It was about seeing how much pain you were in and trying to mitigate that pain.

Well, I think that was what you were wanting to do. Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it wasn't, because I had just been thinking about my own chaos, the chaos in my own life, not about making that decision, looking out for you. Danny, what do you think about this idea though that like could that be the root of some of the anger and frustration you have at your mom? Do you resent your mom at all for having in your mind making you feel like you had to do that?

Maybe, maybe a little bit, yeah. I think that, I mean, we've talked about, I think that goes into the same bucket that we've talked about before, which is the parenting that I had to do as a child. Mm-hmm. Yeah. To you, mom. I remember that.

Is something, and this is in that vein, but it is something I think that is at the root of any lingering resentment that I have. So what you're asking me is what I did to kind of get you to help me was that like on purpose? No, I don't think so. I don't know. Try to get you to know. I don't think it was on purpose at all. I think you were way over your head. You know what I mean? There's nothing, you didn't know what to do. I felt like I was trying to get you to know. No. I don't think it was on purpose at all. I think you were way over your head. You know what I mean? There's nothing, you didn't know what to do.

I felt like I was trying to get you to take care of me. You were? I thought. Really? Yeah. I know. You did that consciously? No.

I did it, I did it unconsciously, but I realized it later. Oh wow, mom. And then I tried to stop doing it. And I didn't... Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you were worried that dad was gonna turn me against you? And I said to you in no uncertain terms, like that's not gonna happen.

And that is what made you feel like you didn't need to try to get me to take care of you anymore. Is that right? Yes, that's it. That was when I realized it. That was your biggest fear, is that dad would get me to turn against you. Yes. Yeah. And it took a little time. It was more than once you said it.

I had to say it repeatedly. And then I realized it. The irony is, of course, me doing that is in and of itself like a parenting kind of. For sure. It is you taking care of her. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Did you then start acting differently, Sandy? Do you remember making choices or behaving differently so as to avoid that? Yeah, I think I stopped calling you up and trying to get you know proof from you that you were still You know like not gonna Turn against you. Yeah, when you say proof like what kind of proof are you looking for? You were saying it again? Yeah, you just wanted me to repeat it. Yes. I remember that now I remember that that during that time period where you wouldn't you just wanted me to repeat it. Yes. I remember that now. I remember that during that time period

where you would need me to comfort you in that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's, yeah. Just to acknowledge that you weren't gonna do that. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, look, like I do think that that is the root

of whatever resentment I have towards you. I was asking about resentment or angry has towards you. That resentment has nothing to do with you doing this on purpose. Yes, yes. I saw you had this look of like, oh, God, when I said that, Mom. Like you could have, this clearly was not on purpose, but that doesn't mean that Danny also can't have some anger and resentment from the situation,

even though it was never your intention to create this dynamic. Yes, exactly. You're just trying to survive. I get it. I get it. So was I. That's what we were doing. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a messed up situation. But I think that when I do get annoyed with you in general, it usually connects to this idea of helplessness on your part. You know that about it's like, if you don't know how, if you don't, if it's something like you don't know how to get somewhere or you do not what to order on a menu or like all these little tiny examples of you being helpless, it is, it triggers that same feeling.

I noticed that about you. You seem to get mad at me, like get impatient with me. Yeah. So I try not to do that. But do you get, do you see why? It's because it's recreating the dynamic in a tiny little way that from my childhood, it's to me, it's like, it's like we're at a restaurant

and I can see you floundering to find something and you're like, Danny, what are you going to get? And then almost all the time, whatever I say, you will then get that thing. Oh, wow, really? Oh, yeah. Do you not know that you do this, Mom? The only thing I can think of that could be with that is I remember growing up and my dad saying to me, when your man takes you out to dinner, you wait and see what he orders

and you order the same thing. Oh my God, really? So that you don't end up ordering, like paying a lot of money for it. Yeah. But mom, what's happened there is you have put me in the place of your father, your parent. Yeah. Right? When the dynamic is the opposite. You see what I'm saying? Oh, yeah.

And so it triggers all these feelings that I had as a kid of being the parent. That's how it bubbles up in our present day relationship, I think. In a way, it's like, we talked before, Sandy, about how you kind of went from one strong man, your father, to another strong man, I think. In a way, it's like we talked before, Sandy, about how you kind of went from one strong man, your father, to another strong man, your husband. And in some ways, it's occurring to me that you then transferred to Danny, your strong

son. Like there's this another strong male influence. The difference is that I don't want to be that person. Right. I mean, like, dad might have wanted to be that person. Your dad might have. I don't want to be that person to you. I don't want to be that person to you. I've never wanted to be that person to you.

I'll tell you what, Sandy, if you're ever unsure about what to order at a restaurant, just shoot me a text. I'll give you a suggestion. No problem. That's so interesting about your dad. I mean, that makes a ton of sense, but that's my point. Yeah. I don't know what we do with this.

I don't know what we do with it. I think that it's helpful just to say it out loud and to talk about it. You know what I mean? Okay. I'm also like, I've got this the voice of our audience in my head too, or I'm just like, I don't want people to think that I'm like, not grateful to you or not, and not fully understanding what you went through. Like I understand all that.

I think there has to be room for complexity here. There has to be room to both, to hold two almost opposing ideas in our head at the same time, which is that you went through a ton of pain and tragedy, and so did I, and you didn't do anything consciously wrong, but I still deserve to be mad. Yeah, I don't see, Danny, why you are not allowed to have frustrations.

Yeah. All right, so I was really afraid of you. I was really feeling like when I was talking to you, I had to proceed on eggshells, you know, just very cautiously, because I was afraid of you turning against me. When are you talking, what period are you talking about, mom? Even in the present day? Do you still feel like you're ready? Well, no, back in the past, back when we were talking

and this was all coming up. Like when I was a young adult. Yeah, when we were talking on the phone and it would come up that I was scared about you turning against me. And all that. This is years and years ago. Yes.

And then even lately, I felt like I was talking on egg shells because you would be a little short with me. Yeah. Yeah, short with me. Yeah, yeah. So interesting. So what you're saying is that there's like still things playing out today that are echoes of the past for both of us.

That I get triggered a little easy by you, any kind of whiff of helplessness from you. And that when that happens and I'm a little short with you, you get put back into this space where you're like from my childhood, where like if I say the wrong thing here, I might lose my son. And I know that you're not consciously- Can I tell you something else about Danny? Something I've learned about Danny over the years. Sometimes he's just a little short.

He can be a little short. And sometimes it's you think, oh, he's irritated. But, and he is on occasion, but sometimes he's just not paying attention. And I'm not 100% serious about this. He's, you think he's having a conversation with you and he is partially, but he's also involved. There's a text chain happening.

And then thirdly, his head, he's thinking about, you know, I don't even know what, what's for lunch. Like, so, and it comes off as like short. You're just like, oh, good God, why he's pissed. But in fact, no, he's just an idiot. We basically say, I'm not a pleasant person. I think that's the conclusion here.

All right, well, I think this is good, mom. I mean, like everything in this podcast, like we, I think that's, there's no real definite takeaway, but just by putting it all out there, I just think that that's helpful. Yeah, I think so too. So, Mom, also in this interregnum, we talked a lot about my improv.

That was a big topic of discussion. And you actually have seen my show, The Understudies, many times over the years. And we've got a show coming up. I'm wondering if you want to tell people about that show and whether they should come or not and when it is. Okay. I've come like two or three times. I really enjoy it. They do a one act play, I mean a three act play in one setting. And they just make it up out of their heads.

And it's every time it's different. And it's a lot of fun. So I think you should come to see it. It's at it's on Thursday, March 6 at 10 o'clock at the Groundlings Theater. Yes. And that you can purchase tickets at groundlings.com slash shows slash the understudies groundlings.com slash shows slash the understudies. So who, anybody who is in Los Angeles, I'd really love for you to come out and see the show. It's like one of my favorite things to do in the world. Thanks for the plug, mom. You're welcome.

Well, thank you as always, Sandy. I think this was revelatory in terms of some of the dynamics between you two. And why do we always forget to record our goodbyes to your mom? I don't know. We just, we kind of always- I justbyes to your mom? I don't know. We just want everyone to know we did say goodbye. We do the cordial decorum of hello and goodbye.

Yes, we do more than that. We tell each other we love her. We do. That happened. That happens. But man, every time we talk to my mom for this podcast, it is just full of surprises. Things bubble up that I never expected to be talking about. It's so true.

Both of you guys, I feel like you frequently have these breakthroughs. It's like seeing therapy happen in real time. It's really something. It's so true, both of you guys. I feel like you frequently have these breakthroughs. Like it's like, it's seeing therapy happen in real time. It's really something. It's incredible. But that's enough about the past. Now let's turn to the future, which is next week's episode. So here is a sneak peek into next week's episode.

I was like, oh man, he got me. Because obviously the easy stuff, like your name, where you live, your phone number, right? Basic stuff. But I remember in retrospect, he was like talking about high school and all this stuff. And you know, I was an athlete, so I did athletics. And I was thinking later, I was like,

he just got my fricking high school mascot and like where I grew up and all these like password questions that were not on my register in terms of like vital information. Fascinating. Wow, that's impressive. When you realized that, did you think, oh, I have to change some passwords or? Not really. I kind of accepted the fact that he was going to access it. And your brother had at that point resigned himself that it was going to happen. And at the time, we're just kind of like, it's going to happen one way or the other.

It's better to just not spin your wheels about it because it just makes it worse. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at inorichardjacobs at gmail.com. Also, I'm going to be honest with you guys, we need all the help we can get. So if you want to support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff we're going to share. Pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons.

Also, please find us on our social, specifically Instagram, at How To Destroy Everything. You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.