How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy and Almost Mensch

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren tread into the ridiculous and terrifying world of Richard's dating life, which weirdly took Danny and his brother across the country. Then, the guys bring on Sandy to talk about the "fog of war" - or how she survived the onslaught of litigation brought by Richard after their divorce. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything and please don't forget to share, rate, and review! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey listeners, before we start this episode, we just wanted to pipe in here for a second to acknowledge the absolutely devastating wildfires that are ravaging our adopted home of Los Angeles right now. You know, Danny and I and our production team are all based in LA and it's just heartbreaking to see these tragedies unfolding in real time. Our hearts go out to these tragedies unfolding in real time. Our hearts go out to everyone who's been affected by this. If you need resources, you can go to mutualaidla.org and find there a comprehensive resource board for shelters, prepared meals, animal boarding,

and donations. Or you could just make a donation to the Red Cross at redcross.org. And with that, enjoy the episode. Hello, everybody. Ahoy, mateys. This is Darren Grodzki alongside... Danny Jacobs.

This is How to Destroy Everything. Um, it's an interregnum, Danny. How you feeling? Well, first of all, let's just tell the folks what this, what it is they're listening to. Um, this is a podcast about my narcissistic father, the ripples of destruction that he left in his wake. And on these interregnums, we are really kind of exploring much more kind of the present day fallout of having my father as a father instead of being stuck solely in the past.

Danny, I have a random question for you. Can I just throw a question at you? Sure. I was thinking about this the other day because you are someone who's conscious of your health and exercise. And I know we've talked to your father, had a bit of an obsession with having a heart attack

and whatnot. Did Richard Jacobs ever lift weights or exercise? Yes. He did. He had a, he never lifted weights. He had a treadmill at home that he would that he would walk on. I never saw him run on it. Okay. But he would he would walk on it and watch television while he was walking on it. So yeah. So he did do that. But so I'm so glad that you asked that question, Darren. Listen man, I'm here to bring the curve balls and you never know, man.

Yeah. So today we are going to do a bunch of things. We're going to play an interview with somebody that is going gonna elucidate a part of my dad's life that sort of was in the dark for me, and then we're gonna bring my mom, Ms. Sandy Jacobs, back on the pod to discuss her feelings about our last episode, episode 10, as well as a number of other things.

That's right, but first, we would like to do something new here, which is give a little shout out to one of the members of our Patreon community and in fact answer a question that is coming from said member. Yeah, we've gotten so many great questions in the community over at Patreon, which by the way is patreon.com slash howtodestroyeverything. We wanted to, as a reward for folks over there who are supporting us financially, really kind of make this a regular thing as much as we can.

And so today, we are wanting to give a special shout out and a thank you to Katherine Matheson for being a big supporter of the show. Yeah, like Danny said, we are a little engine that could here, and the support we get from you guys is so, so helpful, and we are really appreciative of it. Katherine Matheson writes, I am wondering how Danny felt during the divorce machinations, his father's games.

Did his alliances shift back and forth? What kind of stories did he have to tell himself about his father's games? Did his alliances shift back and forth? What kind of stories did he have to tell himself about his father's actions? Did he find himself telling himself in order to survive? Well, and that's a great question. Do you remember any kinds of justifications that you would make, you know, thoughts you would have sort of explaining away his behavior or were you just like, embarrassed and there was no justifying it? you would have sort of explaining away his behavior, or were you just like, ugh, embarrassed and there was no justifying it? No, no, I think there was justifications

that I would build. You know, I think that there was, there were things that, I mean, you know, my mom was not totally blameless, I don't think. I mean, what percentage of blame she had, I think compared to my dad, is significantly, significantly less. But, you know, there were things around,

for example, religion, and my mom trying to, you know, with her Jews for Jesus thing, trying to, there was a bit of proselytization that I wasn't, I know I was not comfortable with then. And I think that's an example of like a way in which she crossed a line that I don't think was cool given that I was Jewish and that that was, you know, that was a part of my identity

and the rest of my family's identity and that my dad had made it very, very clear in the court proceedings that that was an important part of the value system of my family. So, you know, I think I would think of those things and be like, well, you know, that's something. Well, for what it's worth, Dani, I assign you all the blame

and everything that's gone wrong in our working relationship and friendship, for that matter. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Let's do another one. I like this, these questions and answers from our Patreons. Patreons? Patreon patrons.

Patreon patrons. So this is from Robin Ellison. First of all, thank you, Robin, for being a Patreon patron and for asking this question. So, Danny, Robin asks, so I have been wondering out of all of these episodes and you talking to all the people who knew your dad, who don't have a lot of nice things to say about him,

do you ever get hints of a feeling where you want to come to his defense just in the sense that he's your dad and these other people are not saying nice things about him. For example, the episode you had with, I believe her name was Barbara, the lady that he had the interaction with at the airport, she definitely did not have anything nice to say about your father, and I found myself feeling a desire to defend you

in the sense that this person was saying bad things, whether true or not, about your dad. Um, and she said, I love bad things, whether true or not, about your dad. And she said, I love the podcast, keep the episodes coming, and shout out to your mom, so shout out to Sandy. Yeah, boy, that's a great question. And the answer is, first of all, absolutely. Like, growing up, other adults would kind of, without thinking about it,

put me in an uncomfortable position. Like I remember very specifically, like when I was 13, I took this trip to Israel with my brother and my dad. And as part of that trip, we went on like a week-long or maybe two week-long kind of tour. When you're traveling. Real quick question, real quick question. Was this the trip that you went on because you won the essay contest?

Yes, so I won an essay contest and that was that, yeah. Yeah, that's sort of separate to what I'm about to say. It was like, yes, I won an essay contest. I'm just plugging your writing ability. I'm just plugging your, that's all. Thank you, yeah. So I won this essay contest, won this trip to Israel and part of that trip, plugging your, that's all. Thank you. Yeah, so I won this essay contest, won this trip to Israel,

and part of that trip we decided we extended it. It was for that essay, but then we added some other stuff. And one of the things we added was this two week long kind of group trip. You know when you travel with like 20 people on a tour bus, it's the same people for like a week and a half or whatever. Yeah, so that's what it was.

And so I was 13, and I remember like it happening, you know, kind of gradually, but eventually all the other kind of adults in this tour getting to the point where they did not like my dad and found all of his antics. Yeah, I found all of his antics to be super annoying and frustrating and ridiculous. And I very much wanted to be, you know, I had this, I've talked about in the podcast

before this kind of associative guilt and shame about being with my dad. And so there was a part of me that wanted to separate from him, right? But what that meant also, though, was that I'd be like talking with these other adults, these grownups, I'm 13 years old, and they would be like, to me and with me right there, to each other, just talking about how much they did not like my dad and how unknowing he was. Oh my god. And I would find myself being like, you know, sometimes I'd sort of laugh it off because I wouldn't want them to feel like I was with him. Right. I wouldn't want them to feel like I was with him. But other times I would just stay quiet. And I remember no matter what, I would feel this like real deep...

feeling of sadness. Because... I... I just... It felt really... It felt bad. For them to do that and for me to be in that situation. And there was a part of me that did want to defend him. Be like, hey, screw you guys. Like... You know, I'm like, again, it was like just another example I think of how like as a kid I was looked over or not considered, you know, when it came to my dad's behavior.

And look, I also want to say that I probably contributed to that a little bit by like saying or doing things that let these other adults know like oh like you know if he was doing something ridiculous maybe I like looked at other people and rolled my eyes or like so that they knew that I was not you know on board with whatever he was doing. Right. I still think I still think that as another adult you gotta you gotta be careful about that kind of thing. It is it is weird uh I'm just imagining myself on a trip with this guy and his sons. And even if I really dislike this guy, the idea that I would be whispering conspiratorially with this 13-year-old kid about his weird dad, that's bizarre.

That is a bizarre barrier. Yeah, and as you're saying it, I'm like, I think most of it was less, honestly, like them whispering to me, and more them talking to them, to each other, and in front of me. Oh, I see. Still, though, I think that that is a barrier that is, you know, not cool.

Not to get too deep in the geography here, but like you say, in front of you, like, are you guys on the bus? Where's your dad? Like, what is this looking like? So, like, these, you know say in front of you, like are you guys on the bus? Where's your dad? Like what is this looking like? So like these, you know, we'd stop and like go to, like stop for lunch at some restaurant and like, you know, there'd be these big tables.

And a lot of times I wouldn't be sitting, I wouldn't like, I would choose like not to sit next to my dad purposely. And so I would be, you know, cause there'd be like 20, 30 of us and there'd be these big tables and it's all very communal and you know, you're talking to people. So I might be, it might, because there'd be like 20, 30 of us and there'd be these big tables and it's all very communal and you know, you're talking to people. So I might be, it might be like a very long table

and I'm not near my dad. And so, you know, I'm like with, you know, some other people. Got it, got it. What a bizarre situation and just a bizarre setup. Yeah, I mean, that stuff would happen all the time. And I would feel like the desire to defend him and a guilt about not doing it, if I didn't, which most of the time I didn't.

So yeah, it was pretty rough. You know, that sounds like just another healthy moment in an overall extremely healthy, balanced childhood for you, Danny. Yeah, just one in a series. So now we would like to shift gears and play an interview that we had originally intended to include last week, but we didn't have time. In this episode that was covering a lot

of Danny's childhood, there was one element that we uncovered that was really interesting, which just didn't fit into the episode last week, and that is we were able to glean some insights into the dating life of Richard Jacobs post- divorce from Sandy. And we did that in an interview with Elaine you know who we spoke with and we would like to play you that interview Right now this episode is brought to you by apostrophe Darren Let me let me take you back to junior high school for a moment. Please don't Seventh grade. I'm sorry. It's gonna happen. It was seventh grade I was in the gym and I can still remember this moment with absolute clarity someone we know

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Yeah, so Apostrophe is an online platform that connects you with an expert dermatology team to get customized acne and dermatology treatment for your unique skin. And that's the thing, so I have been having some dry skin issues, and I'm also not interested in going to see a dermatologist. I gotta get in the car, I gotta drive, I gotta make an appointment, I don't like any of that stuff.

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To get started, just go to apostrophe.com slash destroy and click get started. And use our code destroy at sign up and you'll get your first visit for only $5. Thank you apostrophe for sponsoring this episode. So Elaine, why don't we start with just like, will you introduce yourself, say your name, and say how you know Darren and I? Okay, I am Elaine Younel. I know Danny and Darren from several different sources actually.

I know Darren because he and Robin were very close friends during high school. Robin is your daughter. Robin is my daughter. because he and Robin were very close friends during high school. And I know- Robin is your daughter. Robin is my daughter. And I know Danny because first, I knew you when you were little because I knew your dad and I also knew your sister and I also knew your grandparents.

So I remember when you were a little boy and then I also knew that you and Darren were good friends and that you also knew Robin. Yep, so we got we got all kinds of connections here. It's all over the place, that's right. Yeah. I guess why don't you tell us like when did you meet my dad? It had to be in the early 80s. I had been separated and then divorced starting in 81. And so you say you probably met my dad in kind of sometime around the early to mid 80s?

Yeah, it was before 1985, maybe before 1984, somewhere between like 82 and 84. And do you remember the circumstances of that meeting? Yes, I do. He put an ad, I do. He put an ad, I think it was, I don't remember if it was in the Jewish Lidar or in the Post, but it was one of those singles column ads. And the only thing I remember from that ad is it was entitled, Almost Mensch.

In reference to himself. In reference to himself. And I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but somewhere in my head something is telling me that he had somebody else write it for him. Oh, interesting. I'm not absolutely sure about that. So you see this singles ad that says, almost mensch. I mean, how did you react to that?

Did you find it funny, or what did you think? Oh yeah, I thought it was kind of an interesting, it got my attention, let's put it that way. I wasn't quite sure how to take it, but it did get my attention. I think it is kind of funny. I mean, without knowing any context of your dad, Danny, I think that's a pretty funny, clever ad for the Jews anyway.

I mean, obviously, a lot of people would be confused by it. And if somebody else wrote it for him, I wonder what they were really thinking. Sure. And so you responded to this singles ad? I did. And what happened then? Well, see, this is a-

By the way, I feel like I'm on a dating, I'm like a host of a dating show. It's the newlywed game, but yeah. There are the newly unwed game. Anyway, I actually cannot, I must have gone out with him on a date, just the two of us, and I have no memory of that date.

But my strongest memory is when he called me to go out to Six Flags. And so we must have already gone out, and he called me back again. And he said, I'd like to take you to Six Flags on a date? Yeah, he was going to take you and your brother and my kids and myself. And I had two daughters.

And so my first reaction is, I can't do that. I can't afford it. I was single parent working half time, having trouble getting child support and every penny counted. So I said, I can't do that as much as I'd like to. And I don't remember his words, but whatever he said gave me the impression

not to worry about it, he was gonna take care of it. So on that basis, I agreed to go. And guess what happened? I have a guess, but I wanna hear you say it. We got there, he was in line first to pay. He paid for you and your brother and himself. And he walked on. And I was standing there at the ticket counter with my two kids.

Oh my goodness. Richard. And I had to pay. Oh my God. So I thought, this isn't exactly the way this was presented to me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went ahead and paid because after all, we were there. Right. And we went in.

And then there's only one other circumstance that I remember that added into, it wasn't really a big deal, but it just was more about his character. I don't know why I even remember this, but we were walking along a path and then he wanted to all go a certain direction, but that direction would have meant we would have to walk across the grass

in a certain area to get there faster or we could follow the path and just take a minute longer. And he instructed you and your brother to ignore the keep off the grass signs and walk across the grass. And I thought that's not right. And that's really, that's really pretty much it of my memories, unfortunately, but they were strong enough to stay. Yeah, well, that story about the grass is just really interesting to me.

I mean, it is obviously so emblematic of so much of my dad's flouting of rules and conventions and laws, you know what I mean, when it serves his purposes. Right. Even though it was just a little thing, I mean, it wasn't a horrible thing, but it was just saying, I don't have to follow rules.

Well, yeah, I think it is notable that you were, you know, on a date with this guy, in a sense, evaluating him as a perspective partner. And so I think it's notable, yeah, and it's a person, exactly, that you do remember this, which I'm sure was a factor in, I'm guessing, that this was the last date you guys went on and that's probably part of why. Correct. Oh man. Man.

I mean, one thing about stories about your dad, he's the kind of person where all you have to do is tell me the story and not mention the name and I'm like, that sounds like Richard Jacobs. That's Richard. Yeah, sure. His reputation precedes him. Yes, exactly. One question I had for you, this Elaine interview jostled my memory

and got me thinking about your dad and dating, which is just a whole other fascinating. Yeah, it's such a weird topic to me. Like, just imagining him on the dating scene. Am I misremembering this, or did you tell me that you guys at one point actually traveled out of town somewhere for him to go on a date?

Yes. Well, look, I don't know if the express purpose was to go on a date. But here's, when I was six, my brother was nine, somewhere around there. My dad took my brother and I to San Francisco for a vacation. I remember doing all kinds of things in San Francisco, flying kites and going to Ghirardelli's Chocolate

and Alcatraz and all the things you do. I also remember that we went on a date, all of us, just like Elaine was talking about, with this some woman and her kids in the same way. Now, so when I said at the beginning, like, I don't know, yeah. And I like, my brother remembers it more than I do. I just, I have pictures of it.

We have pictures of us with this random lady and her kids. And my brother actually says that we did it on more than one occasion, not on that trip, but other times. Um, but like, I look at these pictures, and I try to think of this from my dad's perspective and I cannot come up with what the possible justification is. At least with Elaine, like we're all living in the same city.

She's local, it could go somewhere, yeah. Even then I think, you know, the idea that you take your kids on a first or second date with a new woman is crazy. It's pretty bonkers. But to fly out, this is just occurring to me, is maybe my dad wanted to try to get laid, but then was too cheap for a babysitter. So he just brought, I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know.

But I think he met this woman, I think he would meet women on like dating services, like obviously like a precursor to to online dating apps where like they had stuff where you would like send in a VHS or something. Oh my god. Whatever. I'm not exactly sure.

But yeah, I remember that we went out to dinner and maybe did some some activity or something as well. But I can't imagine it was in any way not awkward. No, Richard Jacobs, hound dog, but let's bring our kids. Like, what? Like, yeah, so strange. Yeah, yeah. And so speaking of the romantic relationships

that my dad had, let's bring in the main one in his life. The OG. My mom, Sandy Jacobs. Cue the theme music. Sandy Jacobs, ladies and gentlemen. Hi. Hi, mom. Hi, Sandy.

How you doing? Oh, good to hear your voice. Thank you. Good to hear. I'm doing fine. So, mom, you texted me after hearing our last episode, and you said that it hearing our last episode, and you said that it was our best episode yet. Oh, wow. Yes.

It was depressing, but yet it was good because it showed me how I didn't remember all the things that happened when it came to lawyers. You know, like I didn't, like I guess I had forgotten that Mark Krueger did that for 10 years for me for free. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Let me just interrupt you to say that it was depressing

and yet it was good is maybe the review of the show. It's what we're going for. Certainly what we're going for. Certainly what we're going for. Leading with depressing. Depressing first, but yet good. It was good because it showed, the reason it was so good is because it showed Danny how you felt during all that

and how we put everything on you as a little kid. And you were the one that figured everything out and you felt like you had to do it. That's why it was depressing. You're talking about the in terms of like the scheduling. Ultimately the custody decision which Danny in the end had to step up and make. Yes. Because it wouldn't if I made it you know the judge made it nobody it would it didn't work because Richard didn't pay any attention to it. But when you made it, somehow he paid attention to it. Right.

Yeah. And so you really didn't know that Mark Kruger was just doing this free work? Well, I didn't. I think he might've said something, but then I forgot because it was so much on me that I think I just forgot about it until he mentioned it. It was just too overwhelming and you probably just couldn't think about all that stuff. Right, yeah. So at first I remember I was paying him and my mom was actually paying him. He would call up and he would say, you need to pay me and, you know, I'm not taking the case or something like that, where it got me really scared.

And then I would call my mom and she would pay him something. But after a while, I guess she stopped. I know she stopped at the first level also in the divorce because she couldn't afford it anymore. And then I was trying to pay what I could, but that wasn't that much. And I guess it just was too much and I feel bad because he did so much.

And when I think about it, not just him, but I got a lot, all these lawyers really were helping me. Then Mark with the case that we had after the divorce that lasted 10 years, and then Mr. Patton took over after that, and he didn't charge me. And it's like I was just blessed by all these lawyers helping me.

I mean, it was just amazing. I have to say, even as you're just sort of going through what you just went through, like my mind just sort of glazes over. It just becomes like a series of this and then this and then this. I can't even focus on it. Yeah.

I know, but what's over what's really, I guess, cool about it is all these, you think of lawyers as being greedy and everything, but all these lawyers really, really, they all helped me. I think that's a great point. I didn't have to pay that much. I love that. I think that's a great point.

I love that because we have been so much about like, this podcast is talking about my dad as his lawyer and it's the kind of like negative side of lawyers. It's like the worst kind of lawyer that you can think of. And you're right, it's so nice to remind everybody and ourselves that like there is a positive side to that profession you know what I mean? Hugely. Well and Mark even said you know he got into this profession he became a lawyer because he wanted to help people. I remember when he said that I was struck because like you said Sandy there's a sort of cliche we have about

lawyers where I was like I double-taped. I was struck because like you said, Sandy, there's a sort of cliche we have about lawyers where I was like, I double-taped. I was like, wait, what? Really? Well, I always knew that Mr. Patton was like that. He's always helping people and he's not always getting what he, the money he deserves, but he feels the same way, you know, so it's just amazing. And also just, just as, just to put a point on that, it's like Mr. Patton, he not only was very helpful in your case, but he has been your steady employer for several decades. That's true. Yeah. And remains so to this day. Yes. He's given you employment and so the sort of the

gifts keep on coming, you know. Right, yeah. Well, Danny, presumably that's also because your mom is good at her job. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, he said it doesn't affect my work, so that's good. Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's impressive, huh? Toronto. There's another great city that starts with a T. Tampa, Florida. Fly to Tampa on Porter Airlines to see why it's so T-rific. On your way there, relax with free beer, wine, and snacks,

free fast-streaming Wi-Fi, and no middle seats. You've never flown to Florida like this before, so you'll land in Tampa ready to explore. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. I've listened to that three times. You listened to what, the whole episode three times? Yes, because I wanted to make sure I remembered it. And it was so good.

I just wanted to hear it again and just feel it from Danny, you know? How he, I always felt like I was always depending on you and I didn't really want to. For my emotional support, I was depending on you. Yeah, yeah. And I didn't really want to. So I tried not to, but I think I still did.

I mean, I did. Yeah. So, sorry. I know you were just a kid. Mom, I just want to say that I really appreciate you saying that. And that, um, I'm just really, I'm glad that this podcast is kind of helping you, and I mean me in a lot of ways, but also helping you see things about your own behavior. Yeah.

How it was affected people, particularly me, that you didn't realize. Right, I know, I know. Did you, because how did that part at the end affect you when we were talking about how my decision to finally, with the schedule and how, because you've always talked about it even recently, as this triumph that you were proud of me,

that I made this choice to settle everything. You heard my perspective on that. Right. So what do you want to know? I'm asking what you thought of that. When I was like, no, it's an indictment of everybody, of all the adults, of all the systems. Because I don't understand how it happened.

Actually, he would listen to nobody. He would listen to no judge. He would listen to no lawyers. He wouldn't listen to his parents. You know, he just listened to nobody. But for some reason, you know, he listened to you. And you know, it's not that you're weird or anything, but you, that you were really, that you were really, like he, for some reason, he respected you

and listened to you. And I don't know why. All I know is it's a blessing. And that's how I feel about it. Cause I don't really know. Nobody else could do anything, but you could. It's not that, you know, it's not anything bad, you know. Well, my point in the episode was that it is bad. I mean, it is- No, it isn't. What I mean is, it's not that it is bad, but I don't know, I didn't know what,

I mean, like I didn't know what else to do. I got to the, like I remember I got to the end of the rope and I asked Mark Kruger, I think it was Mark Kruger back then, what's the next step? Because he would not do it. He would not do anything. You know, Richard would not do anything. He said the next step is you have to go to,

you have to go to court and request, if you guys would not go to me, I had to go to court and request that you guys be put in foster care. And I said, well, I'm not doing that. And so that's when I stopped. I said, we're not doing this anymore. Let's just stop and let it play out.

And then this is how I guess it played out. I didn't know how it was gonna come out. But he told me that that would be the next step and I couldn't do it. So, what would, if I hadn't made that choice, like what would have happened? Nothing. It would have been nothing. I would have done no more. I was just letting go. I would do no more. I wouldn't go to court anymore. I couldn't put you in foster care because that was worse. And so I just told Mark, we just have to give up.

I can't do anymore on the motion to modify. So that's what would have happened. I mean, Richard was trying to basically to ice Sandy out of your life, Danny. Yeah. And he had used the system to the point where he had kind of won. Yeah, he had won, except that you said, no,

I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna go back and forth. And then, like we talked about last week, maybe he felt like that was his best path forward, and so he accepted that. So, Mom, can I ask a couple of random questions as well? One of which, I wanna go back to the kidnapping thing from a few episodes ago.

Okay. And the part that we never really talked about and it sort of has come up, actually somebody who listens to the podcast sort of brought this up and I realized that I hadn't really focused in on it with you and I think we should, which is that according to Leslie in that episode,

you had taken me on a day that wasn't yours, that that day was not yours. Is that your recollection as well? No, and I don't really remember. I mean, I don't really remember for sure now, but I don't think I would have been brave enough to do that. But I believe, Darren, am I wrong that in the court records, don't they say something about that as well?

Do they? I think they do. I think so. Well, my, my, well, Dad, in his testimony, talks about how you had changed the time of some lesson, a piano lesson or swimming lesson or something like that, and taken me early from camp or wherever to go to that. Because Leslie was in town. Yes.

Is that right? And Leslie said that it was your day. It could have. I just don't remember. I probably shouldn't have done that if I did it. Yeah, so you don't remember whether it was. Is that something that you just said that's something that you don't think you would have done?

I didn't think I would have done that because it would have been a lot of fighting then, extra fighting with Richard. But it could have been that I did it because I was thinking maybe it's worth the fighting because Leslie was in town. Yeah. Do you, if it's true, as Leslie says and seems at least to a degree in the court records. Like, do you feel... I don't want to say responsible, because I do think that Dad is responsible,

but there is something there of blame, right? I mean, I don't know. I don't know how to feel about that. How do you feel about that? At the time, I did not feel any blame on it. Now you're making me feel guilty. Well, no, no, I don't mean to. I really don't. I'm...

It's hard because I... I mean, obviously, like, Dad is at fault for that. Yeah. But if it is true that you took me on a day that you weren't supposed to, it complicates it a little bit. It does. It does. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it's...

I don't know. You know, I'm sorry. I didn't really realize anything like that would happen. I probably tried and tried to get him... I mean, this is the only thing I can think of. I tried to get him to change days, but he wouldn't. And then he probably started threatening me. And then I decided I'm just gonna do it, if that's what happened.

The phrase that comes to my mind is the fog of war. Like, it sort of feels like you just are in it and you end up making choices you wouldn't make because it's like you're in this battle, and it's all so heightened and crazy. Well, Danny, I mean, it's another version of what you've talked about many times before, where when someone observed from the outside,

your dad has driven you to the point where you look like the crazy person, and you're making these bad choices. It's like, Sandy, you may have just been so frustrated that you could not get this simple, it should be simple, right, to just switch days. Like I've got my niece coming in, you take this day, I'll take that day.

And he was so adamant, like a brick wall about it, that maybe you grew frustrated and then just did it. Yeah. Yeah, and then there's, but there's, and then I am though of two minds, there's a part of me that's like, well, you know though, who you're dealing with. Yeah.

And so, hey, isn't it better not to poke the bear? But then at the other side of me says like, yeah, but like, that's the kind of conceding to this erratic behavior, and it's sort of letting him win. I really don't have an answer to it. I just think it, I just thought, you know, I would be remiss if I didn't bring this up,

because I do think it's a part of the story. Well, I think, and also I think there might've been another time that something like that happened. But I'm kind of foggy on it, but I'll tell you this. Do you remember one time I took you to Kansas City and Dad was really mad because I guess I did it on his day or I had to have you back by a certain time or something like that. And he got really mad. And then he, I guess he talked to you. And then you said, do you mind if we just go back,

you know, to St. Louis? Because I don't want, you know, so we don't have to deal with this. And I said, okay. So I turned around and drove all the way back from Kansas City to St. Louis and dropped you off. Wow. No, I don't remember that at all.

You don't remember that? So we were only there a couple hours. And then I came back. So I do remember that. That was me sort of not wanting to poke the bear there. Yes. And then I felt like, OK, I'll take you home. And he didn't complain about that.

Was that before or after the kidnapping episode? I think he was a little bit older. Well, I wonder. I mean, that would make sense. I'm like, if I've had that traumatic experience, I'm like, let's not do this again. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think it was later and you were older. So that was another time in which you were taking me when you weren't supposed to? I don't know if it was... I guess so, because I know that I was taking you and I had... I was supposed to have you back. I don't think I passed the time yet. I was, you know, that I was supposed to have you back. So you're saying you were going to be late and having him back? Yes, yes. And so instead, I turned around and drove back. So you we weren't late.

You got to him on time. And, you know, obviously, there is a real asymmetry here because we're talking about these like handful of times, one or two times in which you did this. And and if we go by a set of your journal from that year and a half, like how many times did Dad take us when he wasn't supposed to? I know. Not return us when he wasn't supposed to?

It's like, that's what we get into, this weird space where, like, we're grading him on such a curve, and we're being so critical of you for a couple of these slip-ups. I don't know, man. It's just really complicated, and I'm not sure what to think of it all. I mean, yeah, it's like you weren't perfect, Sandy, but it's also unfair that you should have to be perfect when he was so far from perfect that it's a joke.

I know. I feel like that too. I feel like I did make these mistakes. And I do feel like... Yeah, go ahead, Mom. Go ahead. And I do feel like, yeah, go ahead, mom. Go ahead. I was, we were gonna go on a trip. Do you remember when we went on that trip to, I think it's New Mexico? Is this when I went on the hot air balloon?

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay, your grand, it was like a road trip and your grandparents paid for you and I paid for myself and then we were going to go. Okay. Okay.

Well, Richard refused to let us go and I didn't know, you know, I didn't know what to do. So it was the same kind of thing. But in that case, I, you know, I just waited and then I got, I had to see what would happen and I, and he said he wasn't gonna let us go. So I had the doctor write an excuse why you couldn't go, like a medical excuse. And then he used that in court, but he did let us go. And then he used that in court against me

that the doctor wrote a medical excuse so we could all get our money back in case he didn't let us go. So what is the medical excuse? Oh, the medical excuse was that the contract that we signed with them only could be broken if there was a medical reason. And Dr. Bloomberg, is that his name? He, he, he wrote the medical excuse and I was going to use it. So you could get your money back.

Yeah, because it was also Sid's money. And then Richard used the fact that you had your doctor write up a fake medical excuse. He used that against you in court? Yeah, in court, yeah. Wow. Great, that's great. You're trying to have these, just like a normal vacation with your son.

Um, and that's important to you. And I'm so grateful, by the way, that you pressed it, because I do remember that trip, and it was awesome when you and I went on that trip. Yeah. And it seems to me that Dad was really working very hard to make sure that those kinds of moments between us did not happen. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, one other question that we had for you, Mom, is... Did you listen to the episode where we talked to Dr. Josh, that doctor who is a narcissist and trauma expert? Yeah, but it's been a... You know, yeah, I might not remember much of it. Well, one question that we had in particular, that I had was whether or not Dad really loved me. And I guess I have a couple of questions about this.

My first question is, do you think that Dad really loved me? I think he did in his own way. I think he was just so, he had so many, you know, like mental illnesses that he couldn't really function. But I think he did. Otherwise he would, you know what, if he didn't love you, he would completely ignore you.

People that don't love their kids, they just ignore him. What about you? Do you think that he loved you? Yeah. But I think it was the same thing. He wouldn't have done all that stuff to try to get me to come back and try to sue me and do all that stuff if he didn't love me. Well, people do that... I don't know, that's a weird definition of love.

I mean, people do that kind of stuff all the time. He could have done that for revenge. He could have done that out of spite. He could have done that for power or control. Yeah, he did. But I think he did love me at the time I married him. And you felt that? Yeah.

You felt that, you know, sincerely. Right. I think his mental illness has just messed him up. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. It's hard to know to know you know it's like the mental illness messed him up did it Make it so that he could not love in the sense that we that we think of when we think of love I think he loved me at first, but then I think later He did not love he was consumed with with revenge and and and not everything else that Getting back at me.

Yeah. But I think at first he did. Well, this has been amazing, as always. Mom, we got to do one more thing, which is, Mom, you got to give people a little tease, if you could, set up next week's episode. So if you could say something like... What is next week's episode. So if you could say something like... What is next week's episode? Next week's episode is about my young adult life

in college and post college and my trip to Australia. Well, why don't you say, you know, here's a glimpse of next week's episode. Here's a glimpse of next week's episode. Here's a glimpse of next week's episode. Let me say it again. Here's a glimpse of next week's episode. Now here I've written an itemized list of all the things my dad had delivered to our room

when we arrived. He used to do this. I think my mom might've talked about it actually in an interview on a previous episode about how the moment my dad gets to a hotel, he asks for the world. Yes, yes, I remember that. I remember saying something like that.

Okay, so what's his list? Yes, hello. I need 25 hangers, 10 shampoos, 10 conditioners, 10 towels, feathered pillows, we're allergic to foam, four plug adapters, one roll-away bed, three boxes of Kleenex. Two extra luggage carriers, three garbage cans, and 10 complimentary notebook pads.

And send them up right away, huh? Mother of God. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at inorichardjacobsatgmail.com. Also, I'm gonna be honest with you guys, we need all the help we can get.

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