How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy Death

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren watch the "death video" Richard made for Danny back in the 1980s. Also, the boys discuss Richard's view of death and his conception of the "afterlife" with Danny's brother. It's the death episode! Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, hello, world. Hello, hello, hello. And hello, Danny Jacobs. And hello, Darren Gradsky. Hey, Danny Jacobs. Yes, sir? This is your life. How did it start?

Oh, I was on the wrong show. You're right. This is How to Destroy Everything. It sure is. A podcast about my malignant narcissist of a father who died in 2015, the ripples of destruction that he wrought in his life, and how I, as an adult, am dealing with that today. This is kind of a modern version of this is your life, really.

I mean, that's what we're doing. It sure is, yeah. And, you know. This is my dad's life, this is my mom's life, this is your family's life. This is your family. Yeah. And so we have a very exciting interregnum

for you folks today. We mentioned at the end of last week's episode this remarkable discovery that Danny made of the death video from his father, which we will get to, but not just yet. Yes, I will be watching that for the very first time. Oh, boy, exciting. Very, very exciting. And anxiety-riddled.

I'm not concerned about your anxiety. I'm mostly concerned about our audience's excitement. for the very first time. Oh, boy, exciting. Very, very exciting. And anxiety-riddled. I'm not concerned about your anxiety. I'm mostly concerned about our audience's excitement. But first, so we are coming off of these two episodes in which you and your brother had some remarkable conversations. The Frost Nixon of podcast conversations, if you will. Now, who's?

Are you Nixon? I'm going to let the audience decide. OK, fair enough. Still, even in those two episodes, there was a lot left on the cutting room floor. And there's one conversation you guys had in particular that I think is relevant to death, actually, which is sort of the theme of this episode.

And we wanted to start this interregnum by playing that for you now. ["The Last Supper"] by playing that for you now. And by the way, I do have a lot to say on the psychic bit. He was obviously very big into the psychic stuff. I have a theory as to why. Please. I think it was his way of dealing with just sort of a fear of death. Oh, wow.

You know, he, as we've heard on other episodes, would very frequently bring up his health and how he was on death's door and so forth. So he was fixated with, I'm just gonna have our tech. I mean, even like, I recall recently hearing the podcast about how he made Sandy take that flight training for specifically for co-pilots who are worried that their pilot will have a heart attack mid flight.

And this was when he was in his twenties. That's right, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, to think about this from the perspective of a narcissist, what could be worse, right? Than the idea that you are so vulnerable, you have zero control over death. Yeah, yeah.

It doesn't care about how strong you think you are, how well you can talk your way out of everything else. Yep. It is coming for you and you can do nothing about it. The one thing I think that as a defense mechanism he could buy into from this is that it doesn't end with death, right? that as a defense mechanism he could buy into from this is that it doesn't end with death, right?

I mean, that there is this spirit world that exists post-death that he will continue in and he will still continue to be able to exert influence post-death. And so just buying into this mythology worked for his mental state and helped him, I guess, cope with the concept of death. Particularly, you've talked about how he's a hoarder and so forth and so on.

I mean, I would tell him, dad, if you're really gonna die soon, can you please get your crap in order? Because your expectation is that I deal with this and this is gonna be a f-ing nightmare. And what do you want me to do? Like, I don't know, you know, you've got a gazillion keys on these key rings and random places and buttons

and post office boxes and I don't know the half of it. And can you write it all down please? And I don't know how many times I just beseeched him to do this and he never would be able to get himself to do it because it was just such a hard thing for him to like get into that mindset that he's about, you know, that he is addressing something that involved and that vulnerability.

And to the extent that he was able to do anything, right? It would always be these videos, right? Yes, I haven't watched mine yet. Well, okay, well you should watch yours. I mean, it doesn't do what I was asking him to do. But at one point, like he was visiting with me and I was driving him to the airport and he was telling me all this stuff.

Well, oh, just so you know, there's this and just so you know, there's this that you need to be aware of on my death. I'm like, dad, I don't know that I'm gonna remember all this stuff. Can you put this down on paper? He's like, no, well then at least just frigging, here's my phone, talking to the video camera

so that at least I'll have some damn record of it. And I have these very shaky videos of him talking to my camera and interestingly, he's not even aiming it at his full face. He can't look at the screen of- Oh, wow. And see the pain in his own face. Like you just see his quivering mouth,

wow. Wow. wording these things about like how, what he wants and what his, some of the details of how he's structured his life. And it was exceptionally difficult for him to face his death. And, you know, to your point about how you would have conversations with him that sort of allowed you to like verbally duel over things.

And I enjoyed that too. And so like when he would go on and on about how wonderful Sylvia Brown was or John Edwards, and he would tape them and watch them. Those are psychics, right? Right. I would challenge him. I'd be like, I don't buy this, dad.

This is, you know, he would just go to the mat. Oh, well, I think this and this. At some point he actually was persuaded that Sylvia Brown was full of shit. But John Edwards, he remained, I think, to his dying days, his go-to guy. Part of his dying wish for me was that he wanted me to go to one of the appearances of John Edwards

and ask John Edwards for information about my dad and that dad would at that point convey to me information and that would surely open my eyes. And I'm like, dad, I don't see how that would open my eyes. I mean, this guy is masterful at coming up with stuff that sounds believable and anyone could have come up with perhaps with some background research. I think if, so he and I worked this out, right?

We worked out a scheme by which I could theoretically test whether John Edwards was in fact providing, you know, insight from my dad from the beyond, which is that we agreed on a particular symbol that if John Edwards was able to convey the symbol, the particular, you know, that was, he, my dad and I both knew, then that would sort of be evidence

that dad was in fact doing it. Well, I mean, we agreed on this. I never obviously went to John Edwards, but- What was the symbol? I mean, to me, I'm not conveying that. I'm not gonna actually say it in the event that I ever do encounter actually say it in the event that that that I ever Do encounter some side, you know

Alleged psychic and and ask for that. I can still ask for it and see well Maybe we'll do it for the podcast. You're welcome to do it for the podcast. You're gonna get John Edwards on maybe Yeah, but I need to know what the symbol is. You want to get John Edwards on I we can do it I if we get John Edwards, will you participate? I will participate. Or do you want me to? No, no, I know. It would have to be me because I mean, he promised that essentially he would use all of his whatever afterlife powers to focus on this symbol and make the psychic convey this symbol. convey this symbol. You know, I will say, I will say, like I had always, I think your explanation about his obsession with psychics

feels really insightful and right on. Like my feeling was that his obsession was about creating a beard, if you will, a justification that he wouldn't have to explain for how he knew the things that he knew, which I also think is partly why he was obsessed. Well, that was about how he was psychic.

That's true. This is also sort of, this is larger than that in his whole belief in soccer. But you're right, yeah, cause he would watch those shows all the time and it went beyond that. And I think you're just talking about the fear of death. I think that makes a ton of sense to me. Well, and it also fits in,

I guess makes it more believable that he would consider himself psychic. I mean, to anyone he was trying to manipulate through that line of, oh, I have this, I mean, right? I mean, this is somebody who does buy into the concept. Yes, yes, of course. And maybe as a defense mechanism feels like he has to. Yeah.

But yeah, he certainly did use the psychic crap to like, I am psychic and therefore you should do this. Or I sense that something is happening to hide the fact that he had actually access to email or whatever. He also thought he had a spirit guide. What? Yeah. And this was back when he was a follower of Sylvia Brown.

And I don't know if this is consistent with John Edwards' own mythology, but that there were spirit guides that helped people. And he, at one point he had prostate cancer. And it was a low stage of prostate cancer, I think, and it was developing. And I remember he would go in for treatments or they would be checking at least on the size of it.

And I mean, prostate cancer is a very slow-developing disease. But I remember at one point him calling me, and I wouldn't say he was in tears, but he was just ebullient. And he was relating to me a dream about how he was visited by this spirit and how it had told him it was not his time and like touched his head with some fingers of light and like into his abdomen. And then the next thing he knew,

like he woke, he came to from that and he very soon after got like results from some kind of prostate test. And I don't know if the prostate cancer had gone away entirely or was in remission or gone down a level. I don't know if the prostate cancer had gone away entirely or was in remission or down a level. I don't know exactly what the story was, but somehow it had improved dramatically. And he was out of the woods in his mind.

And so he linked, at least in this story to me, the actions of this spirit guide who was looking out for him as responsible for that permission. Wow. It's just so... What a bizarre aspect of his psyche. Like, I always felt like, yeah, he was considered himself Jewish, obviously. But like, I never really got the sense that he was like a big spiritual Jew or believed, even believed in God necessarily. Do you? Do you have any insight into that?

Well, I mean, to the extent that it was relevant to his divorce, believed in God necessarily. Do you have any insight into that? Well, I mean, to the extent that it was relevant to his divorce. Well, sure. Yes. Then he became the biggest Jew on the planet. Exactly. In practice, on the day in and day out, it really didn't seem that important to him. He wasn't going to Shabbat services on a regular basis. No. I agree with you. I mean, I think he had, I mean, to the extent

that we would go to services, it would probably be like, because there was a great meal to be had there. Right, exactly. The own egg afterwards, yeah. But it's just so interesting to me that given that, that he just, like, there was this kind of mystical side of him, this magical realism kind of belief that he had. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, coming back to like,

well, do you take it at face value? Do you question it? I mean, like, you know, one could, I certainly sitting here today could interpret it and in some ways don't close the possibility that this was an attempt to manipulate, right? I mean, that somehow he knew that his cancer, his prostate cancer had improved

and he developed this story to sort of reinforce in my mind or try to reinforce in my mind the idea that he's tapped into some kind of psychic power that therefore the next time I should believe him, right? I mean, so it could be a tool for manipulation or it could also be, again, something he actually believed, given the defense mechanisms he may have had,

or both, or I don't know. Yeah, it's impossible to know. I mean, the fact that you guys are saying that he watched these shows so much, he spent so much time, I mean, there seems to be some degree of genuine belief or at least wanting to believe, yeah, like you said, as a defense mechanism against the fear of death.

But I will say, I mean, you know, you've mentioned in an earlier episode, like moments of seeing him cry, right? Or at least the lack of moments of seeing. I mean, this, every single time he is addressing anything concerning his own death, he gets tearful. And now a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by OutSchool.

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Okay, so a little while back, I was visiting my brother and his family. And as we've mentioned on the podcast before, my brother had all of these VHS tapes and these videos of... A treasure trove, I believe how you referred to it. Yes, of films that my dad had made. And I found one that made me literally gasp. Let me just pipe in here to say that you took a picture of this and sent it to me and our producer, Michael Grant Terry. And on the VHS label, handwritten,

in your father's handwriting, it said, I believe, to my darling son, Danny, to be viewed upon my death. Love, Dad. And so what we might do is. Before you, let's just linger on the insanity of that for a moment. A, there's a death video. B, he wrote, to my darling son, Danny, to be viewed upon. A, there's a death video.

B, he wrote, to my darling son Danny to be viewed upon me. It's so dramatic. It is. I sent you and Michael Grant Terry, our producer, a breathless voicemail message. Was that breathless? I just thought that was your usual way of speaking. No, I even said in the middle of it

that I'm breathless as you were. I know, I'm being a little shit. Yeah, no, yeah, it was, your emotions were palpable understandably. I mean, A, in any context, this would be madness. B, we are literally making a podcast in which we are exhuming your father and trying to understand all that he was, and he provided... A message from the grave. Now, we should say he had made this message many, many years ago,

I believe back in the 1980s. So it's not like it's not going to clarify any events from my life that I have been, you know, in my adult life or anything like that. we don't know what it is because as we sit here today. I have not watched this video. That's right. I've waited because we said we were gonna do it for the podcast, which is weird. It's weird. But at least that's what we said. Another testament to your dedication to this podcast,

I don't know that I would have been able to do what you've done, which is you've had it digitized on your computer. Yeah, it's been sitting on my computer. For quite a while. Yep. And we've come into the studio, you've had it digitized on your computer. Yeah, it's been sitting on my computer for quite a while. Yep. And we've come into the studio. We've had a lot to do.

We've constantly had it on the agenda. Yeah. And Michael, Grant, Taryn and I are constantly punting it. I'm always like, Hey guys, should we watch the death? I just call it the death video. That's right. And we're just like, Oh, we don't have time. We don't have time.

I'm like, okay, it's only the last words to me from my father. That's all. It's not a big deal. But now the day has come. The day has come. For you and me to finally watch this. Look, and I wanna say how I'm feeling, which is I'm feeling very nervous.

There's a part of me that is feeling like this is gonna be very underwhelming. Well, I think there's a good chance of that. I can tell everybody that it is 19 minutes long. Yeah, it's just FYI. I don't know what he could have possibly been droning on about for 19 minutes. Well, because it looks just, again,

we can all see the opening image of it right now, which is Richard Jacobs. Sitting on his couch. On his couch. Staring directly into the camera. The wall is right behind him, so you can imagine the depth of the frame. Yeah, it's a medium shot, sort of tummy up.

That's right, and he's wearing a button-down dress shirt and tie. His uniform, his uniform. And he... Is that a dye job? Is his hair dyed dark there? I don't know. I don't know. Oh, yeah, I would say so. There's something about it that looks like a dye job. It is, it is. And I'm guessing, I don't know if there's gonna be edits to this or is it gonna be him sitting, I don't know, he could be sitting there.

With a continuous shot. I just feel, I feel like it's gonna be underwhelming because I'm just saying this ahead of time, because I just don't see how he could have had, could have any real understanding of his own behavior or anything that is like, takes some real self-awareness, I don't believe is going to be in this. I agree with you about that. At the same time I

remember several episodes ago we talked about you going back and revisiting your Bar Mitzvah video and which you also kind of expected to be underwhelming and it actually kind of blew you away with its profundity. So maybe we're about to go on a profound journey here. Alright well I don't expect it but let's see., so are we gonna do this? You know, maybe we should just punt this and do this at a different time. What do you think, Michael Grant, Terry?

Yeah, all right, now let's do it. Okay, all right, can you see it? I can see it. Oh, Jesus, oh God, okay. There is January 24th, 1986. 1986, January 24th, 1986. And I have decided to leave you this tape. Some seven. A little something from your dad. He's so serious.

He is. Kind of expressing my feelings about life. Reminiscing about things I remember as you grew up. Needless to say, if you're watching this tape, I'm no longer alive. It's kind of hard to think of death, but I believe that's the way God intended it. Just as the seasons go by, from spring to summer, to fall to winter. I mean, it's very performative. He's listing seasons now, yeah. When one is born, and goes into childhood and adulthood, and middle age and old age

and death. The new replaces the old. And middle age, and old age, and death. The new replaces the old. It honestly sounds like one of those messages that you'd get if you were trying to fall asleep, you know, that like has no real content to it. Yes, yes. Provides room for the new. I suppose I hope that you'll remember me well, Danny.

My little Danny. With the bad sound, it's like the remember me well, Danny. My little Danny. With the bad sound, it's like the worst ASMR ever, too. We used to get mad because I wouldn't give you any red juice before you went to bed. How hard it was in my heart to say, no, Dan, I don't want you to have any juice. I'm afraid you're going to wet your bed. And how torn I was to go ahead and let you have something to drink to know that you'd be lying in a wet bed. Hopefully by the time you watch this tape, the problem will be solved.

I know that when I was growing up I thought it was not masculine to go up to grandpa and give him a hug. It was all right to do it with a woman, with grandma, but it wasn't masculine. That's really interesting. And I read an Anne Landers column, and Anne Landers said something to the effect that it's important to do things while you're alive, and not have any regrets later. Don't have any regrets. You know, one of the important things that I've found important in the last couple of years is my religious beliefs in Judaism. And that there is one God, a loving and forgiving

God. He had no sons. Oh, that's very interesting. And just as your parents and I am Jewish, your grandparents... We know what that is in point of reference to. Yeah, he's referencing this war that was going on during this time. I've all been Jewish, and I carry on the Jewish faith. About my mom's religion and the Jew for Jesus stuff. Jew, pre-Jewish, at this point, Bar Mitzvah, bacon farmed.

When I was dating, going out with girls, I dated only Jewish girls because I knew that if I dated only Jewish girls then I would find a girl that I loved and who would love me. And there's something about Judaism that is very close and very warm. Yeah, but what's so interesting is his relationship to Judaism was not... I mean, he didn't... He like, you know, he went to high holiday services, but like, it wasn't something I felt ever was like super important to him other than in juxtaposition to my mom's religion.

I guess I didn't realize how Jewish I was till the last couple of years when... Well, that's what I think this is about completely. It was a threat to your being brought up Jewish. And I realized that it is very important to me and was very important to me. He realizes it now that it was important. When I suffered my heart attacks and had open-heart surgery. And the prospect then of not being alive another day, I found that Judaism was very important to me. And I hope that you will carry on this religious belief.

So he's 43. He's like basically my age here. That's right. And not be dissuaded by other things. I want you to remember that some of the things I think are important are that you do as well as possible whatever you try to do in my opinion. Do your best. If you do best, you can't do anything more. Keep your body healthy. Exercise, eat the right foods. Don't get overweight if you can help it.

And you'll live a long, healthy life. Keep yourself emotionally fit. Emotionally fit. Wow. And alert. And I know, Dan, you're kind of impish at times. Impish. Impish. Yeah, I guess that's true.

And I hope that you will always be honest. Be honest with yourself and be honest with your other, with others. Be truthful. to be strong, and to invite trust from other people, and to trust other people. And if you do all those things, Dan, and I realize that I'm probably talking about the ideal, you'll live a long, wonderful, happy life. Right now you say you want to be a lawyer one-fourth of time, a veterinarian one-fourth of time, an archaeologist one-fourth of time, and an artist one-fourth of time.

Oh, archaeologist. And whatever you do, do it well. I remember when I graduated from high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was accepted in electrical engineering. Whoa, I didn't know that. I wanted to do things with people and for people. I know that you now, I love your mother very much. Wow. And I wish her well.

Wow. He's getting emotional. I want you to look after her. Look after her Wow Wow So Dan, oh now he's back. I should like to leave you with a couple of words Religious readings he is his eyes are watery. Yeah, those words are May God Those words are, may God keep you, may He cause His countenance to shine upon you,

and may He grant you peace, Danny, throughout your life, and may He take care of you. Try to remember me, Danny, on March 27th when my birthday comes around. And you'll be 21 years of age in the year 2000. and you'll be 21 years of age in the year 2000. Imagine being alive at the turn of the century. And I hope whatever you're doing at midnight in the year 2000, you think of me. He's acting as if he's imminently dying. Yeah.

Even for a moment. Because I'll be there, my spirit, Danny, will always be with you. And my love for you will always be with you. The thought of his own death makes him emotional. Mm-hmm. I am a part of you, Danny. Wow, that's interesting. Just as grandma and grandpa are part of you.

They're parents, parents are the ancestors. I hope that you look back and remember, you exemplify all the wonderful things in our family. It's, as I said, very difficult to sit here and talk about something when you know that, as you see this, I will have been buried, or the process of being buried, but life goes on. And life is for the living, Dan. God will watch you.

I will watch you. Grow into your manhood. Hopefully you have a family. I know the joys of bringing up a fine son. A son who has beat me today and the other day with a total of nine checker games. My dad loved checkers for some reason. I predict you're going to be a good checker player. It's such a...

It's a really basic game for him. It's basic. Yeah, you're going to be a great checker player. Maybe you talked about ham radio tonight. Maybe you went ham radio to talk to people around the world. We're living in an interesting technological age. And after all, I would have liked to have been able to see my great grandparents, but I never knew them. You'll be able to look back and put us into a tape recorder and see us as if we were there.

That's interesting. It's like some of the films he was making was for his great grandchildren to see him. Anyway, I guess it's time I say goodbye to you, Dan. I don't want to. But I just want to love you very, very much. Remember, don't ever be afraid to tell the people that you love, that you love them. It's very, very important for them to know how you feel. God bless you

take care i love you oh oh oh my god he just disappeared oh my god what was that he did that on purpose he he did an in-camera trick camera trick where he just disappeared he's gone the camera is still there and now it's just a lingering shot of the empty couch, antistatic. Wow. That's so dramatic. Wow.

He literally was saying goodbye to you because he's not going to be there anymore. And then pop, like an in-camera little trick. Wow. Oh my goodness. Oh my god. OK. BedMGM, authorized gaming partner of the NBA, has your back all season long.

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only, please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connix Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Danny Jacobs, your thoughts. Well, it was sort of what I thought it would be, which is, he made that in 1986.

I was six years old still. And so in terms of its connection to who I am, like he doesn't really know me yet. I mean, as much as you can. Exactly. Through no fault of his own in this case. No, of course. But okay, two things that, two moments that really struck out to me, one was the, one is the tone, which was really, as you mentioned, this certainty that really stuck out to me. One was the, or one is the tone,

which was really, as you mentioned, this certainty that he's gonna die. And it's gonna be soon. And that he's not gonna be around when I'm 21 years old. He speaks about the year 2000 and I want you to think of him. Yeah. And then, like, yeah.

That's really interesting to me. The other one that really got me was, so this is 1986, So he January of 1986 I that that is the year that my mom's journal in their divorce proceedings It's like right before things got real bad. Wait, wait, wait, so she left him was it in in Late 84 early 85 trans remember where they were they were. They had been trying to reconcile. This is probably soon after there was a whole thing with the fake deed and counseling.

And they're heading now towards divorce. Unless that was yet to happen. Unless that happens like February, March or something. And then it gets nuts. Oh, maybe it is still yet to happen because he does say in this video that he loves your mom very much. Well, but I don't know if that is, yeah, that was what I was getting to, And then it gets nuts. Oh, maybe it is still a time, because he does say in this video that he loves your mom very much.

I don't know if that is, yeah, that was what I was getting to, which is like, he said he loves your mom very much. He starts to cry and says that she's sweet and that I should take care of her. And I'm just like, okay, either that is after he started accosting her, which is saying its own thing.

Or it's right before, but even then, if it's right before, it's that video and when he started just being a huge asshole to her. It's like weeks if not months apart. Right? A couple months,. Right. Right. Couple months, if that. Which is just, I've never heard my dad say something positive and convey something positive about my mom. Yeah. It's really weird. There's no death video for her, right? No. It's for you and your brother. And my aunt and my grandparents. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Which is also interesting. I mean, it's also interesting. Yeah. Yeah. He was also, by the way, remarkably dry and uncharismatic in that video. Yes.

To me, it felt like it was a performance of this is how you're supposed to sound if you are conveying an important, dramatic, and serious message. Dan, he called you Dan a bunch of times. He was the only one in my life who ever called me Dan. Yeah, which maybe is why you stayed Danny. Oh wow, I never put that together. The other thing that I was struck by, because you're right, he got emotional in two parts.

One, when he was talking about your mom, interestingly, and then later on when he was talking about his own death, and I was thinking about- And about me remembering him, wanting me to remember him and wherever I am on the turn of the century. Yes, and well, it's the thing that resonated with me about that is this idea of the prospect of his own death is so horrible to him, a narcissist,

that it makes him genuinely emotional. He was in some ways terrified of his own death. So it's interesting, I don't know if he, he had had heart attacks and open heart surgery, which he referenced. I don't know if he genuinely thought he was going to imminently die, or if he just sort of,

that was sort of an element of performance here or an element of making this thing. I don't know. But regardless- To go to the length of making this thing, I almost think that you've gotta to have some sense of it. Yeah, he convinced himself. Convinced of it.

Also, if I'm someone that is going to have the idea to make this, like my dad did, I would also be like, let me update it at some point. Whether it's like, you know, oh, 20 years later, I'm still here. Why don't I throw another one, just part two in there. No doubt. It's odd.

Like if I made one now for my seven year old, first of all, I think about that. If I made one for my seven year old now, I feel like there's a lot more about my seven year old that I could say than he said about you. Yes, all he said was a little anecdote about how I wanted red juice at night, and my dad didn't want to give it to me

so I wouldn't be sweat the bed. And he's got emotional there. Yeah, because he felt bad about having to say no to you. And then about the few things like what I wanted to be when I grow up. And that you're impish. And I'm impish. That's it.

I mean, I think you and I could rattle on. And in fact, I would, if I were making a video for my seven year old, I would want to talk about all the things we've to talk about all the Things we've done together elements of him But anyway to your point. Yes, if I were still around 20 years later, I would have a whole lifetime So it's a talk about yeah a lifetime of stuff to talk about in terms of Him. I also found I have to say like the life advice to be so generic generic trite

Generic, you know a hallmark card. Trust people, tell people you love them. Take risks. It's not all gonna be great, but that's how God intended it. Right. I'm left overall watching that. I was like, while I was watching, I was like, I was feeling a little sad. But also just like, there's something so perfect

about that as a goodbye from Him, because it's not really about me. That's absolutely right. It's mostly about him. The doing of it, the timing of it, the content of it. Yes, the dramatic finish in which he disappears from the screen. Yeah, I'm just sort of left kind of empty from it. To that end, one thing that I was also watching you watching the video, because I was thinking about myself, if I were watching a video of my dad talking to me, I would have been an absolute puddle. Like I just would have been a wreck

emotionally. Okay, but remember, different situation. Yeah, we're in a podcast studio. Several people are here with me. That's true. It was weird that we brought a whole studio audience. Yeah. But that wouldn't have mattered. Honestly, I could be in a public, in any public setting. Yeah.

I mean, I can, there, I see little videos of my dad now, just like not perform, not talking to me. Right. And I get misty. Right. But like, I was watching you and like, you were pretty consistently mocking him in your comments.

Like it seemed like, I'm sure you felt something, but it seemed like those moments when he got emotional, I didn't sense any emotion or response. No, because I didn't believe, because those emotions were not about me, because I didn't feel that he was talking to me. I didn't really feel like that was a message to me. It was done for other purposes.

Cause you were six at the time. It was done for himself. He was doing this. There was some pointed stuff about religion. It was done for himself. He was doing this. There was some pointed stuff about religion. It was, yeah. I mean, the other thing is that we, you know, I feel like this is coming at the end of a process in which I have been ensconced in my dad on a daily basis.

So it's not like- That's true. I haven't been thinking about him and I haven't been seeing him. I mean, I have been, you know- That's true. I've been drowning in my dad for over a year. That's a good point. If you, this had come a year and a half ago

out of the blue and you just watched it. Yeah, that might've been different. Yeah, yeah. But I'm also coming at it now with so much of this like recency baggage that this different lens that I'm viewing it through. I guess what I'm wondering, when he looks you in the eye in that video and he says,

because he talks about how like you need to tell people how you feel, which by the way, was kind of forward thinking thing for a man to say. Yeah, yeah. But in 1986. Yeah, when he looks you in the eye and says, I love you. Yeah.

You know, we've talked a lot about whether or not he loved you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Josh way back several episodes ago talked about that. We talked about that with several people. I don't know, we've talked a lot about whether or not he loved you. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Josh, way back several episodes ago, talked about that. We talked about that with several people. I don't know, what are you feeling when he says that? Yeah, that was the one time when I was like, when I feel like I was connected to my emotions in a more specific way.

Because I did feel that from him. Whether or not I... I think any kind of hesitancy I have about that moment is that because of our conversations with Dr. Josh and it's like I also know that that is not an expression of love as I would be able to express it. But at the same time, it's his way, that's the best he can do. Which, which look. Which look, just from a 30,000 foot perspective, he's doing all the things that a human being would do in that moment to express love.

There's emotion, it seems genuine. But I guess now, it's hard for me to see that in the way that I did before, in a way that I did before, in a way that is purely like, yes, yes, that is love. That is how I feel about it, is what it is, and what it is is an expression of human love that everybody has.

So it's just way more complicated, I think, than it would have been. At the same time, he is your deceased father on a video looking at you, saying sweetly and seemingly genuinely, I love you. And I mean, I know, he is your deceased father on a video, looking at you, saying sweetly and seemingly genuinely, I love you. And I mean, I say seemingly genuinely, but like, I said this. I believe he believes that. That's what I was gonna say, is that I think he believes it

and I think he feels it. And even if it isn't the same kind of expression of love. Meaning that even if there isn't some other ulterior motive or some kind of transactional element to it. Love is love, right? I mean, it is still maybe a kind of love. And there's something, it's quite something that most people, when they lose a parent, don't have a video of that parent looking them in the eye and saying, I love you. And in a way, as performative as this was and as weird as it was and as

we were mocking it, it is kind of a gift. Yeah. Yes, I think, I guess so. In a weird way. In a weird sort of like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, man. I'm still just sort of like just kind of trying to parse it all out. It's such a complicated situation and a weird situation. I think just watching that here while I'm recording myself on my phone and we're recording the audio. And it's like a very strange way to experience that. We've dived fully into the public sphere here at this point.

Yeah. We are so like, this is Ed TV, Truman Show, Penn Stuff. Maybe I would have had an emotional reaction had I been watching that by myself late at night, you know, in my house. Let me ask you this. As you sit here right now, do you think you're going to watch it again? That's a good question. Maybe. Maybe I will. I probably will. I mean, I'll show it to my wife. I probably will when I show it to my wife. Yeah. Do you think you want your kids to ever see that? Yeah, I don't see why not. There's nothing objectionable in it. No, no, no.

And in fact, if you didn't know who my dad was, you'd watch that and you'd... I don't know that you would be... you wouldn't be watching it with the kind of pessimistic, cynical lens that I watched it. Sure. I think you might watch it and be like, well, that guy's not a philosopher, but he's, you know, he's, he's like a dude who's expressing how he feels and that's sweet. Is there any world though, in which like, something else we talked about throughout this podcast, your kids eventually listen to this podcast, and they hear your perspective on your dad, and then they watch that video. And what if they don't believe you? What if they're like,

Yeah, I mean, that's that. Yeah. I mean, I think that I can't imagine that this I can't imagine that that video would be the first and only thing that I would be using to express who he was. My expectation is that there would be some context through which they would watch it. Even though there is some emotion in it, I also don't know that it's like the most, as we've said, it's not the most beautifully expressed version of love. I'm also thinking about, I guess one of the things that I've been thinking about is that we started this podcast and I talked about closure. I talked about closure and another way of saying that is saying goodbye to my dad.

But that's as sort of a distilled goodbye as you can get. Like, and it's making me wonder whether that's what this has been about all along, whether or not it really is about saying goodbye to my dad, as opposed to something else. Or maybe this podcast helped me do that already. And so this is anticlimactic. So now here we are, and I've already kind of worked

through it all with him. And in some ways, this podcast, which has been all about him, is no longer about him. Interesting. Right? Like, we've reached the end of what there is for me emotionally to explore about my relationship with him. And that's why this felt anticlimactic to me. I would say that I think that that's true. And I think what you're intimating is that now the podcast is about you and moving forward. I would say though that in retrospect, I think the podcast has always been about you. And of course it's about your dad. But in a way,

in all these various interregnums that we've done, I think that's what's become clear to me all along is that like along the way I should say is that this has always been, you know, about Danny Jacobs more than Richard. Right. We've started every episode saying this is a podcast about my narcissistic father, blah, blah, blah. And that's not ultimately true. I wonder the other way though to say that is that, you know, it's been a podcast

about my dad and I, and now the dad part of it is fading away into something else, into either, into me or me and my children. You know what I'm saying? Okay, yes. But before we move on completely from the past, I think we need to take one more detour back there. Yeah, for a very good reason. I think that's true.

Because, you know, we started this podcast talking about a support group that existed in St. Louis comprised of people who had been sued by my dad. Yes, I mean, listeners of the podcast know that we've spent the better part of a year searching for someone, anyone who was a part of that group. Well, guess what? We have done it. We done did it. We found our white whale.

Now, it was a complete accident. We are not professional journalists. No, no, no. But we did it. We done did it. We found our white whale. Now, it was a complete accident. We are not professional journalists. No, no, no. But we did it. It is momentous. And I think, you know, I know this is an interregnum. We don't normally do this, Danny, but I think it deserves a kind of momentous ending here. Okay. Well, I think I agree with you.

Yeah. So next week, finally, the support group. And that is coming up on the next episode of 1, 2, 3. How to Destroy Everything. It felt good. Oh, it did. We should have been doing this all along. Special shout out to Spotify Studios

for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.