How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy Generational Trauma

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Wherein Danny and Darren bring in Sandy to discuss the fallout of the intense revelations of the previous episode. Danny also recounts a recent experience that made him completely rethink the ways that he may or may not be like his father. Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Interregnum 4, everybody. I'm Darren Grotsky. And I'm Danny Jacobs. And this is Interregnum 4 for How to Destroy Everything, the podcast about my narcissistic father and his path of destruction and my attempts, along with my best friend Darren, to kind of understand it all. We've obviously, we're coming off of Episode 3, the main Episode 3, which we all heard last week. No, we're coming off of episode three, the main episode three, which we all heard last week.

No. We're coming off of episode four. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Who are you, Danny? I mean, look, this is a complicated system.

You know what this is? This is really a podcast about you and all that you are, which is a lot. And the word that I would use to describe you is a mess. Sure, sure. You're a mess. Yeah, that's fair. A number of times in our lives. But isn't it a charming mess?

Oh, I mean, it must be. That's why I'm here, I guess. The number of times in our life that I've had to, I don't know, like wake you up, clean you up. Clean me up? Well, not physically, literally clean you up. Clean me up? Well, not physically. Literally clean you up, but I mean,

clean up your mess. Like this, you know, you get the wrong, they're small, you know, wrong episode. Yeah. Darren comes in with the right episode. Anyway, so we've all heard

episode four, which is about the, what was episode four about? See, this is what I'm talking about. And Darren comes in to clean up the mess. Episode four is the story of your mom. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And how... Of course. It's my mother. I know, Darren. I don't need your reminders. And how it is that she came to marry your father. Yeah. And, boy, I have a lot of thoughts on that episode.

The one that's sort of like ringing in my ear was something that, um, we talked about near the end when, um, we were talking about the time before your parents got married and how your dad really messed things up and wound up apologizing to and crying to your mother. Yeah. And you said something that I didn't sort of harp on in the moment. things up and wound up apologizing to and crying to your mother. Yeah. And you said something that I didn't sort of harp on in the moment. You said that there was one other time in your life when you saw your dad cry. Yes.

And I was wondering what that was. Yes. So, okay, here's the story. When I was in college, I came back one break and was in the office of my dad's house where he had his computer. And I was just on it. And I looked down at the trash can. And in the trash can was ripped up pieces of paper. And I don't know why I leaned down to pick them up. I'm always intrigued about what I'm finding at my dad's house, I suppose. And you love torn papers. And I love torn papers.

You've always loved torn papers. But I picked these papers up and I saw that they were printed out emails that I had received in my inbox that my dad had somehow gotten. Oh, oh these were i see not not sent by him these are just like your private emails yes now here's the thing because like obviously throughout my life i often suspected and even uh accused my dad of doing things like hacking into my emails because he would have information that he shouldn't have the only way that he would get them would be

somehow be getting into my email as i revealed to you in episode one, he also broke into my email. Yes, exactly. But I never before had just like out and out proof. Cause my, one of the things about my dad is he always has quick excuses and justifications. His mind was very agile that way. So here I was, you had the smoking gun, I had the smoking gun and I was furious. I mean, I was shaking. I was like sitting there being like, oh my God, this is it. And so I went right up to him and I was like, you did this. And look, here's the, here's the proof. And my dad, for one of the only times that I saw him in the moment could not come up

with a justification. Oh, fascinating. His immediate response was like, oh, oh, don't be ridiculous. He was just sort of like dismissive. Like, don't be ridiculous. And I was like getting in his face. I was like, no, no, no. Why do you have this?

How do you have this? Explain it to me. I was like, oh, you're just being crazy. You're just sort of like gaslighting and just like general, like don't be ridiculous. Don't be ridiculous. And we had this big, I was super angry and I screamed at him. Yeah. But he had nothing.

Okay. Then. So that, by the way, just before you move on. So that just ends because it's, you're just going in circles. There's nothing to do. Right. He's saying, don't be ridiculous. He's probably, I think he just ends because you're just going in circles. There's nothing to do. Right. He's saying don't be ridiculous. I think he was just like walking away, whatever.

There was nothing to do. Oh, God. And then, so like two days later, I remember exactly where we were. We were on Ballas Road. Oh, yeah. St. Louis listeners, you can see it. Driving north on Ballas towards Olive Street Road. I don't know that we need all the the intersection details i'm well i'm just saying but but i think it's emblematic of something because it's stuck in my brain so vividly because this was so rare yeah my dad close to bristol's by the way my yeah

exactly uh it always comes back to bristol um my dad started saying like hey i want to talk about those papers you found oh wow no way this is, wait, this is like a days later, you said. Like two days later. Okay. And he tells me this story and he says, here's what happened. I got contacted by this sort of wonder kid, this teenager who had developed a way, he's claimed that he had developed this incredible way to hack into email systems. Oh my God, I love this already.

this incredible way to hack into email systems. Oh my God. I love this already. And that he had gotten, um, some, some kind of interest by the department of defense and he needed a lawyer to represent him so that he had a lawyer when he was meeting with the department of defense. And my dad said that he, he was like, okay, well I need to, I need to have proof that you can do this. And my dad said, my dad told him, this is what he told me. He told him to break into my email account. No. And that would be proof.

And as my dad is telling me this, he then apologizes and he starts to cry. He's like, I shouldn't have told him to break into your email account. That was wrong. But that's what all it was, was me trying to get proof that this potential client of mine that I was going to represent could do what he said he could do. Wow. And I remember hearing this and just being like, that is a lie.

Yes. Did you say that to him? Yeah. I'm pretty sure I said something of that. Like, I don't believe you. That is crazy. And he was like, well, that's what happened. And I'm sorry if you don't believe me, but he sold it, man.

Like emotionally, he was there. Okay, wait, I have so many questions about this. Okay, so first of all, what do you make of the tears? Like, what is that? I don't, man. Is it pure performance or is it some like? No, I mean, I'd like to think that it was a gurgling up of real regret that his, he's unable to express in a truthful way. Right. Um, and, uh, and, and, and in a conscious way. Yeah. Um,

so that's what I, that's my guess. Yeah. I don't think my dad. That's kind of a generous, that's a generous interpretation. The thing is, the other interpretation is that it's fake. I don't think my dad is a good enough actor, was a good enough actor to be able to do that, to pull that off. hinted at in episode four, it is interesting that the two times that we know of him crying are times when it appeared that his relationship with someone that he wanted to be in a relationship with was at stake. Yes. Where he was going to cost himself Sandy, marrying Sandy. Yes. And here,

this more than any other situation was dangerous for him because you had the smoking gun. Yeah. You had proof. And he had no, he couldn't come up with something in the moment to justify it. Yeah. So it was, it's a really interesting to me that he, that he brought it up apropos of nothing several days later. You know what I mean? Yes. And I, and I'm, and I don't remember what that interregnum period was like, but my guess is that I was very, very cold and distant and not talking to him and just. So he was like, but my guess is that I was very, very cold and distant and not talking to him and just. So he was like, I gotta do something about this. You know, I have to say, um, typically his stories and concoctions were like almost plausible. You know, I'm a little disappointed

in him this time. Yeah. That's what he came up with in two days. Like, I don't know what the better one would have been, but like, but it's a tough, how do you, I don't know. I don't know that there is one. You're right. It's a tough way out. You have the printed out emails in your trash. Like it's, it's a really, it's like, I don't know that he had any other. Yeah. Cause he can't say that he himself was the hacker. No. Right. So he had to invent a hacker.

Yep. And then obviously he, he used what he knows, which is he's the lawyer. So he, you know, he's, he's going to represent this kid. Just doing due diligence.

Yeah. That's all I was doing. Just doing due diligence. Make sure this guy is who he says he was. There is an apology in there though. That's, you know, he is acknowledging fault.

There's a part of me that, that, that, that thinks that again, that this, that's, that's sort of his unconscious fears and shame are in there, a middle mixed up in there.

What you're saying is, is that when he said that this fake person, who's a genius contacted him to represent him and he came up with an idea for that person to prove himself by hacking into your emails, what he was really saying is, I'm sorry, Danny for hacking into your emails. I'm a genius. I'm a genius who had this great idea to hack into your emails, what he was really saying is, I'm sorry, Danny, for hacking into your emails. Yeah, I'm a genius.

I'm a genius who had this great idea to hack into your emails. And I'm sorry that I told myself to do that. You know what I think we've realized is that you actually got an apology from your father. Yeah, yeah, I did. And that's a rare occasion to be celebrated. I had to put it through a normal psychological filter,

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Yeah, what were your thoughts? Well, I was thinking about the main thing when I told you that story about how he put something in my drink. Yeah. I guess I was thinking about why didn't I do it? Because I, why didn't I do anything about that? Like not go out with him. But I think it's because I didn't really,

he said he didn't do it. And I didn't really think he did because he was so nice to me. Even though, even though that other lady said, I didn't know that other lady very well, you know, she took his word for it i took his word for it over hers yeah i get it that makes sense i mean how else could you possibly

keep going out with him if you actually thought he did that like that makes perfect sense right yeah yeah and never did anything like that again well i made the argument though darren in the podcast that i don't listen to the podcast, Danny, so tell me. That there was a chance subconsciously that, like, that my mom, sort of on a deeper level, knew, but then again, it went into this idea of at least it would be an interesting

life, like... Yes, that's right. You know what I mean? Like, I was making that... Getting drugged. Yeah. No, I didn't think... If I would have really believed that, I wouldn't have gone out with him. I see. I see. That's great. I just didn't believe it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I didn't think. If I would have really believed that, I wouldn't have gone out with him. I see. I see. I just didn't believe it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think now, by the way? Now, I mean, it's impossible to know, but do you think he did it? Yeah. You do? Yeah.

Yeah. That's pretty definitive. Because she had, I mean, because he had done a lot of other stuff that was, you know, like bad, you know. Implicitous. And I just, yeah. And I just felt like this is stuff that was you know like bad you know and i just yeah and i just felt like this is something else you know one time he took something out of my car so i couldn't leave he made it so my car wouldn't be able to leave like he took a piece out of your like a like a

something out of the engine he i was gonna leave him and then he took something out and i couldn't i couldn't leave well this was before This was before you actually left him? This is like... No, I think... I'm not... We weren't in... We were in that apartment, maybe. So you had separated from him?

Well, I might have separated... No, so it had to be when I was with him. It was at his house. It was at his house and he put something... He put something... He took something out of the car so I couldn't leave and then I came back in and then we talked it over and he put something. He took something out of the car so I couldn't leave and then I came back in and then we talked it over and he apologized, but I don't remember what it was.

Wow. So you had some argument and you were going to leave him and so he sabotaged your vehicle so you physically couldn't leave. Right. And then you had nowhere to go other than to just sit there and have a conversation with him, and he apologized? Yeah.

Oh, Sandy, that's awful. That is so terrible. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was bad, too, that he did that. So I was kind of wondering, you know, I knew that if I ever left him, I had to do it where he didn't know. And that's why when I finally did leave him and go to Kansas City with you guys, he had no idea. I didn't tell him or anything.

We just got up and we went to Kansas City. You were a fugitive in the night. Yeah, well, I was with you. He went to work, and then you guys woke up. It was the first day after school was over, and then we got in the car and went to Kansas City. And he said he was so shocked. He didn't understand why that happened.

Did you remember on that day, did you tell Danny and his brother that you guys were like leaving or did you just make it seem like, hey, we're going to Kansas City? I think I said we're going to Kansas City. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I didn't say, yeah, because I had, because, well, they knew later because I was trying to, we did try. He said he was sorry again. And I was trying to work it out with him. But I said I didn't want to move. I didn't want to move back in with him. So I came back. I said if we went to counseling, maybe I would try. That was right before we went to counseling. That was right before we went to counseling.

Right. I mean, I say that makes sense. At the same point, I'm just trying to think like it is a choice to not tell your children that we are leaving this house for good. I understand why you did it. But, man, that's like really pulling the rug out from under us. Oh, no, no. I really didn't think that we were at that point that that was going to happen. I see. So you were like, I just need some time away.

We're going to happen. I see. So you were like, I just need some time away. We're going to go to Kansas City. No, it was because I wanted to go to Kansas City so that Richard would see that in order to make our marriage work, we had to go to counseling. I see. It wasn't a permanent thing. I got you. Yeah. You were trying to get his attention. You were like, he needs to know.

I was trying to get, he needs to know that. And then it worked because he said he would go to counseling, you know, so we did. Yeah. One other thing I wanted to ask you about, Mom, is about Uncle Hyman because he's in this episode. I know. Maybe we should say that, I think we should say right now that a few months after we recorded that interview with him, he died. He passed away. Unexpectedly passed away.

Totally unexpectedly. Yeah. How was that for you? You know what? It was wonderful hearing his voice. Oh. I just loved it. And I'm thinking about it now and thinking about him.

And it was wonderful just to hear his voice. That's how I, you know, I just, I love that he's in that episode. Yeah, I'm so glad. I mean, I... That's so sweet. I love that. um and it's emblematic to me of something you know this podcast i i often think about it in in sort of a future tense like i think about it as this time capsule in a way of our family in this moment and you know i i think about you know letting my kids hear it one day and what that'll be like but it just it just sort of like hit me when he died. One of the, one of the things that hit me was that, oh yeah, like this, there's something, a permanence to this that's nice that we're doing here. Yeah. Yeah.

Because it'll last. It's like having a little interview with him. Yeah. But I, but it was his voice that just did it. It just made me feel so warm, you know, listening, hearing him talk. Yeah. So, yeah. He feels so warm, you know, listening, hearing him talk.

Yeah. So, yeah. Was there anything that was, that felt inaccurate, that didn't feel correct about how we portrayed things? Okay. Well, let me ask you, did we, I don't remember, because I had so many episodes and I've talked to you so many times, I need to just kind of ask you, was it, was the sex part brought up in this at all?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, the only thing that I think that was a little bit not completely correct about it was that I did enjoy having sex with him. Where's this going to go? Wait a second. You keep bringing up the sex.

No, no. Okay. Wait a second. Do you want to hear me out? Sorry, sorry. You keep bringing up the sex. No, no. Okay. Wait a second. Do you want to hear me out? Sorry, sorry. You were saying you did enjoy having sex with him. Continue. But I felt like one of the reasons, one of the main reasons I did not break up with him early on was because I felt like I could, since I've already had sex with him and I feel something

for him, I really would never have that experience again. I felt like it would be so hard to, you know, break up with him and then have to deal with, you know, sex and all that stuff again with someone else. Wow. I've never heard such a negative depiction of somebody. Got to deal with sex again. Okay, okay. No, it's not dealing with sex. It's like getting yourself where you feel it's good, you know, and not something that people take advantage of you. Like my dad used to always tell me that, that boys will take advantage of you and they'll do it as much as they can. And then he told me that he did it all the time. Yeah, that he took advantage of women?

Of girls. Yeah. He would say he loved them just to have sex with them. Right, right, right. And then he told me that when I was a teenager. Yeah. You felt like you had got, you trusted Richard, irony alert. To the point, to the point that I would have sex with him.

And then I felt like that I can't just quit, you know, going out with him because I've already done this. Yeah. No, I mean, I think this is a, this is a relic of a certain, I mean, it's certainly your, an aspect of your generation. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't think that that is. generation. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't think that that is. It's interesting though. It's another angle on how your dad, Sandy,

in some ways planted the seeds that led you to Richard, because I wonder if he had not made such a big thing out of men are trying to sleep with you, men are trying to sleep with you. If you would not have been so afraid to go back out in the dating pool, you know? Yeah, it might've been. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I just, I mean, I was just really surprised he said that yeah you know but but i didn't know what to say you know i thought everybody's dad talked you know more like this you know everybody's dad talked about all the women

you like to i don't know it's just like you know i didn't know i could tell you that my dad i was only a teenager. Yeah. Well, Mom, are there any other details about your sex life that you'd like to share with us? That's it. Let's get them all out now. There's nothing else. It's just that I want, because you were thinking probably that it was just so enjoyable, which it was. Oh, God, I was not thinking that, Mom. I was not at all thinking that.

Instead, it was because I didn't think i could do it with somebody else i mean i just felt like i see you know but it was enjoyable okay just to be clear listen all right let's not do this i just felt like i wanted to be honest no i listen that's what we're here to do is to be honest about the sex all All right. So, Mom, another question I had was, how did you feel about the depiction of the archaeology scene when little you is digging in the dirt and Papa comes out? Yeah, well, that didn't really happen. Yeah, I know, but...

Don't tell them that scene. But, I mean, the gist of it happened, not in that way. The gist of it, yeah. What happened was we were just talking about that I want to be an archaeologist. That's what I wanted. And he said something like, you can't be an archaeologist because when you get married, you're going to have to have a job. You're not traveling all over the place.

He said, nobody is going to marry you if they know you're traveling all over the place, you know, being an archaeologist. So he said, you need to have a job where you need to just be here. And then he said, the perfect job is to be a school teacher because you're off during the summer when your kids are. You know, mom, I got to say, I'm really relieved to hear you tell that depiction of it. Cause we were, when we wrote that scene, we, we, we had some concerns about it being too kind of like on the nose. Yes. He's like saying exactly what he, you know, talking about it in terms of you being a wife and a mother.

But that sounds like exactly what he did. That was what he did. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I'm glad to hear that. That's great. Well, Sandy, this has been a delight as it always is.

And we appreciate you coming on this interregnum. Love you, Mama. Love you, too. Love you. Okay. I love you, too, Darren. Okay. Bye.

Okay. Now, Darren, there's something else that I want to talk to you about for this interregnum. That's what we're here for. I want to talk to you about for this interregnum. That's what we're here for. Well, that I think is really interesting because it's sort of tangential to the podcast, but in some ways, it is so emblematic of everything that this podcast is about. What a tease, folks. Let's buckle up. What's this? So, okay. So where do I start? In January-ish, somewhere around there. Six months ago, seven months ago. Six, seven months ago.

Okay. We discovered that there was some leaks in our condo. Oh, yes. Okay. I remember that. We live in a building that has about seven units. And obviously, there's been a lot of rain in Los Angeles because of, thank you, climate change. Let's not rush to judgment until all the facts are in.

And so there were leaks, particularly in both of my children's bedrooms. One worse than the other. And so the HOA determined that the leaks were the fault of the buildings. There's something about how the roof was or whatever. So we weren't going to have to pay for fixing these leaks, thank God. Thankfully. But that the HOA was going to use the service of a particular construction company.

That construction company began its work on these leaks. Now, to do these leaks, which had mold in them, it required first my daughter to move out of her room into my son's room. Right. So it was like a big disruption in our daily life. Kids love disruption, I think, I believe. And it screwed up their, their bedtime routines. You know, it's a, if anybody with, with little kids, you know, that's a huge deal. And I became very quickly,

pretty frustrated by this construction company based on their lack of communication like it started where like they would just like they would they wouldn't tell us when they were going to come weeks would go by i wouldn't hear from them like they do one step and then nothing when you say they wouldn't tell you that they were going to come they would just show up unannounced well sometimes they would call in the morning and be like oh yeah yeah, we're going to come today. And I was like, oh guys, like I need some kind of, some kind of prep. Um, so, um, so I would start like, so like there was, there's this one guy that's like the owner of this company and I had his number, that's all I had. And I would like text and call him. I'd be like, Hey, what's the status, whatever. He wouldn't reply a lot of times. So I'd have to like call, leave messages, text several times. And, um, can I, can I interject to ask a question here? Cause I'm

realizing suddenly I'm hearing this story through your filter. And I just am wondering, I know you can't obviously exit your own perspective, but when you say that you text several times, you call, what level of persistence are we talking about here? No, nothing crazy. Okay. Not more than once a day. But like once a day, like day after day? Well, it would increase in frequency. Folks, just to give you a little context as to why I asked that question, I, as you know, have known Danny a long time,

and there have been situations in which there were various people in various capacities that were not getting back to Danny. And he could have a certain persistence in trying to get in touch with them. If you get back to me, then we don't have a problem. If you don't, we got a problem. But look, seriously, what would happen is they they would come in and like destroy half of my daughter's room right put up these huge machines to suck out all the moisture and it's like running all the time and like nobody can sleep and like it's a huge the machine runs all night yeah oh yeah it's a huge disruption and i just want to know

hey when is this when's the next step a A reasonable question. It always starts with a reasonable question. Start with like a text or a call. And then I would give it like three or four days. There'd be nothing. And then at some point I would, I would maybe text every day until I get them. You sound like a reasonable man. Ah, thanks, man. Um, I don't know if that's true, but I appreciate it. In this context. So far, Just wait. So at some point, two things happened. They moved some of my daughter's furniture to kind of make room for this remediation process.

Okay. And in the process of doing so, they broke her dresser. Oh, sure. Yep. of doing so, they broke her dresser. Oh, sure. Yep. So I called this guy and I said, hey, um, they moved the, uh, the dresser and they broke it. Or I texted him first and then I finally got him on the phone and he was like, oh, well, yeah, I guess you convinced my guys to move that stuff. They shouldn't have moved that furniture. I guess you convinced them to do that. And I said, whoa, I didn't convince anybody to do anything. I just, they just did it. Um. I guess you convinced them to do that. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't convince anybody to do anything. I just, they just did it.

I might've asked them to, I don't remember, but it wasn't like, oh, you got to do this. And I went against their better instincts. And he was like, no, oh, listen, man. No, no, no. They wouldn't, I know that they would never do that. And I'm like, listen, I don't just, just, you know, we got to just handle this.

I want to get repaid or whatever. And then he also started to be like, well, I don't, I don't need to be just disrespected i think i might have said like hey man i might have said the word man like hey man he's like you know don't call me man i don't need to be disrespected he's like also you you're just like hounding me every day uh you know calling and texting and i'm like well i don't know when you're coming back i don't know anything that's happening like i'm just trying to get a response he's's like, well, don't you, I don't want you to call me anymore. He's like, you can call the office. I'm like, I didn't know there was an office. I'm happy to call the office. I don't

want to deal with you. Sure. So, um, let me just interject one more time to say that again, and this may all be true, but in your telling of this story, um, even the way you tell it, the tone of this man is aggressive. Oh, it was. Okay. He was super aggressive. Your tone is very like... Yes. That's exactly right.

Okay. That was my experience. That's why I'm telling it that way. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm not going to tell it to you in a way that I did not experience it. We'll get back to that in a minute, audience. So, okay.

tell it to you in a way that I did not experience it. We'll get back to that in a minute. All right. So, okay. So then I, my wife got home and I started to tell her what had happened. Okay. And I started by saying, so I admonished this guy. I used the word admonished. Yes. And my wife, Yes. And my wife, she reacted in a way that was, that felt to me as if it's almost like, oh, God, Danny, what did you, what did you do this time? You know what I mean? Because, and look, rightly so, like, like as we've discussed on the podcast, like I have the, like one of my triggers is this sense of unfairness and injustice. I think that came from my dad and I can react really big to that. And my wife is somebody for whom like, she doesn't want, does not want to, you know, upend the apple cart.

And she wants, she likes like peace and harmony. And it makes her very uncomfortable when I am very forthright with people and say what I think. When you admonish them. Yes. But when she reacted that way, I got very, it really upset me. It really upset me.

And I couldn't articulate why. And I did something very kind of childish. Like for two days, I didn't really talk to my wife. Oh, wow. Like I gave her the silent treatment. I was like so upset. Yeah. Until finally I realized like what it was.

And I started to tell my wife and I started to cry as I told her this. And I said, it makes me feel like I'm my dad. Yeah. When that is the reaction to my behavior. And that is really, that's like a really hard thing for me. It's like the, the, the most intense nerve that could be struck is that one.

I mean, it's, it's why it's part of why we're doing this podcast, right? Exactly. Now, uh, this,

this goes back to some of the questions I was asking earlier. Yeah. Why do you think she, I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. Why do you think she had that reaction? way more to this story. I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. Why do you think she had that reaction? You talk about how she likes peace and harmony. Well, because, because.

Yeah. Like, it is true that, and you know this about me, that, like, I have had circumstances that I've sort of gotten myself into where I... Many. Where I create a scene

based on this feeling of injustice that is really difficult for me to contain. She's heard me get into arguments with customer service people that are pretty bad. Well, this is why I was asking about tone. I was asking about your experience of your tone because I do think that sometimes you don't realize the admonishing

that you're giving to people and how they might react to that right because of the tone no no that's that's that is fair but i just want to say like the circumstance here is this is a company that is being hired to do work they they made a. And instead of owning up to that mistake, they're kind of blaming me. And that is, that's just, it's bullshit. You are in the right here. You are in the right. And then, you know, your dad was in the right often as well. That was interesting.

Right. But so anyway. No, that's true. And by the way, this is also coming like in month five of this process. Right. Like this has been, this is like, these are jobs that should have been done in like a month. Yes. And while we're also, by the like, these are jobs that should have been done in like a month. Yes.

And while we're also, by the way, in the middle of making this podcast, so all this stuff is fresh. Right. But like I've had five months where my kids are sleeping in one bedroom, right?

Yes. And having trouble sleeping and there's all these problems and it's just this delay after delay after delay. Yeah. And it's just like, it's just really getting to me.

So from that point on, I start just talking to the office. Okay. And not him, not him directly. Yeah. As he asked me to do. Mm-hmm. All right.

Cut to like the beginning of July. Mm-hmm. All right. They are set to do kind of the final step, right? It's the last day of work before this all gets done. My kids can get back into their rooms, and this whole nightmare can end. They are scheduled to come that morning.

Okay. My wife happens to tell me in that morning that she had found a week-old pudding in the construction area of the bedroom. A pudding? Pudding. Like a little pudding packet? Pudding of the bedroom. A pudding. You mean like a little pudding packet. Pudding. An eaten pudding. P-U-D-D-I-N-G.

Everybody knows what pudding is. I'm lingering on the word because it's a fun word also. So she'd found this week old pudding and I was like, God damn it. They're, they're not only are they eating in our rooms, which is weird. They're then leaving it there. Yeah. And it's unacceptable yeah so i texted the office and i said hey we found pudding this is totally unacceptable like please tell your

guys don't eat in the you admonish you would admonish well yeah yeah did you if you were deserving of admonishment. So I texted them. So, and, and. This is a Curb Your Enthusiasm episode at this point. Yes. You are Larry David at this point. Oh, 100%. Okay, so then the construction workers arrive, okay?

Okay, yeah. Not this head guy. He doesn't come. Does he usually come? Not usually. Okay. Though he had been saying over and over, oh, I'm gonna come and look at this furniture

that we apparently broke. He never came. He would say that several times. Okay. No, so it's just these guys. So they're in there. They had arrived like 10 minutes before. Okay. So then I called, the woman from the office calls me,

and she's like, yeah, I don't know anything about this pudding, but I will bring it up with the owner, and he'll call you. And I said, okay. Oh, boy. So he calls me, and before anything, he's like, yeah, my guys know not to eat anything. Like it wasn't them. I bet it was like your kids that came in there

and ate pudding. Now, so. He's accused your children of eating pudding. So this is like some weird tapioca pudding. Like we don't have pudding in our house. Like that's number one. Very anti-pudding. So it would literally impossible, be impossible for my children to go in there. But also I was

just like, you're, you're blaming my children for this? Yeah, that's remarkable. That's remarkable. So I said, I said, listen, man, I don't need, I don't, I don't need excuses is what I said. I said, I just want, I just want, don't eat pudding. Don't eat pudding in our, in our house. Yeah. A simple request. And he was like, um, he was like, well, I don't need don't eat pudding. Don't eat pudding in our, in our house. Yeah. A simple request. And he was like, um, he was like, well, I don't need to be disrespected. He got on this disrespect. He was like, do you, do you want me to, do you want me to refuse service? And I said, no, I don't want you to refuse service. Where did that come from? I just don't want to, I just don't want you to, uh, I just don't want you to eat,

eat, eat in the construction area. He's like, well, I don't, I don't need to be disrespected. I was like, I said, well, neither do I. And I hung up. Ah, okay. All right. Yep. Five minutes later, I hear one of the construction workers' phone rings. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me?

Oh, boy. Is he going to pull them out of this job? Oh, my God. This is the last day. This is the seven months have led up to this day. I am so close yeah to it being done the phone rings i hear him talking they're speaking in spanish i don't speak spanish and then i'm like lingering i go over there and linger because you yeah you know what's happening

and then he hangs up and i was like hey guys everything okay and uh what are they putting guys i got pudding for you he's like oh you know we know, we're going to, we're going to take our lunch break. And I said, you just got here 10 minutes ago. He's like, yeah, we're just going to have a lunch break. And I was like, I was like, no, no, no. I was like, can you please just keep working? Cause you just got here. Like, and so they keep working.

I did. Cause I knew it was bullshit. I knew it was bullshit. Okay. So, oh man, what an awkward position. These four workers are in now. Their bosses hold them just wait just wait okay so then then and my i should say my kids this is like the day before

we were all headed to go to lake arrowhead so like my kids are not in school they don't have camp they're at home oh okay during this so they were watching this interaction yeah but but they they're not really no they're not really involved in this okay so then um so then they go back to work for like 10 minutes and then i hear them packing up and they're starting to go and and and i'm like where are you guys going there's like oh my boss told me that we have to leave wow and so i was like oh my god no please no so i call the office yeah they don't answer the phone uh-huh and i And I'm like, hey, you guys, please just stay. This is ridiculous.

We're so close to the end of this thing. They're not answering the phone. I'm texting. I text the guy. Yeah. No one's answering. Oh, my God. So then I'm like, so the guys get out.

These workers get outside. And I was like, will you do me a favor and call the office on your phone? Because I was like, they're ignoring my calls. Yes. So he calls the office on his phone. They answer, don't they? They answer. Yes, they do.

And then I asked the guy for his phone. So now I'm on his phone. You put this man in this position though. I know. So I'm on the phone and I'm talking to the office and the woman there is like, listen, I don't know anything about it. The, the, the boss told them they got to go. They got to go. And I'm like, well, listen, I know. I want to talk about this. Like this is, this is, this is unacceptable, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, um, give the phone back to our worker. I was like, no, I want to talk to you. I was like, I want to talk to you first. I was like, they're like, you have to give the phone back. And I was like, I won't. And now we're outside. And my children are, I've noticed, are now like in the lobby of our building, like watching this through the window. Yes. And I just want to say that like in this moment, I am out of control. Yeah.

Like I am not able to control my rage and my feelings of being out of control, even despite the fact that my children are sitting there like watching this. Yes. But I'm also able to think, oh, it doesn't look that bad. Like I'm just, all I'm doing is having this very animated conversation on the phone. Like I'm not, nobody's like having a physical altercation or anything like that.

Sure, sure, sure. But I am aware of what's going on, and I'm also aware that I am unable to take this track on a different track. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, and I'm also aware that I am unable to take this track to it on a different track yeah right yeah so and I'm also like oh they're inside they can't quite hear everything too so many thoughts are racing oh yeah this is all happening yeah yeah so the woman's like she's like I'm like she's like just give the phone back to our workers you can't take their phone I'm like he gave me the phone he's I didn't take it and she's like we have to give it back and I'm like

well the problem is like I she's like just call me on your phone it's like, I didn't take it. And she's like, we have to give it back. And I'm like, well, the problem is like, I, she's like, just call me on your phone. I was like, I tried. You're ignoring my calls. I don't have any, I don't have any proof that you're going to answer the phone. And then she starts cussing at me and she starts calling me a child. And I was like, you don't need to cuss. Like we don't need to name call. And then I was like, listen, listen. I was like, fine, listen, here's what I'll do. I'm going to call you on my phone. I want you to answer that. And then I'll hang up this phone and I'll give this, I'll give it back to the guy. Quick exchange here. So that's what I did.

So I called her on my phone. She answered. I handed the phone back to the guy. And then we talked for like a brief, like 30 seconds where she calls me a child again and then hangs up. Wow. Well, she hung up on your phone. Yeah, on my phone. Okay. All right. So then they leave. Wow. Well, she hung up on your phone. Yeah, on my phone. Okay.

All right. So then they leave. Okay. And I have all kinds of emotions. Sure. So, man, where do I start? First of all, I guess, I started thinking about my own behavior,

and I was like, I was angry at myself, because I was like, if I had just, it was their last day. I didn't need to act to talk to them about the pudding. Correct. I could have just swallowed that man. If the goal is to just fix this situation, get your kids into two separate bedrooms again and get everything done with that would have, but I could not keep my fucking mouth shut. Even though the pudding was indeed unacceptable, you didn't need to tell them that it was unacceptable. I could not control myself because of the anger they had already felt for this guy. Yes, yes.

There was a lot of context. But I was just like, I was so mad at myself for not keeping the end goal in mind and not being able to contain my emotions in a way that would have, would have been beneficial to my family. Right. Well, and that makes you think of your dad, because that's your dad. He could not never, you know, see the big picture. He got so focused on those little indignities, those unfairnesses to the detriment of everything and everyone around him. And the other part about this was my kids standing there. Well, yes. Yes. So much of what I have been dealing with as we've been talking about this podcast was the real shame that I have felt about being in this and this, this feelings of intense feelings

of guilt and shame being in these situations when my dad would cause these big things and the fear that it would give me of feeling unstable. And here was a situation with my children watched that. And the next day, apropos of nothing, my son said, uh, and I'm going to, I'm going to get emotional. He said, um, daddy, I thought that those men were gonna kill you oh my god and um and i had to just tell him i had to say like no they weren't gonna kill me this is what was happening and and what i said was i said listen i uh, I didn't handle it well is what I said. I should have, I should have tried to remain much more calm than I did. And that's something that I'm going to work on. Um, but I had to kind of like reassure him in that moment. And it was so, it was such a parallel

to, um, to, I think how I might've felt as a kid. And, uh, I do take solace in the fact that a, he felt comfortable enough to talk to me and that I could, I could sort of like dissect the situation with him. Dude, that's the thing that's, that's not a parallel. You would have never had the interaction with your dad that you had with your son. He would have, your dad would have never had the interaction with your dad that you had with your son. Your dad would have never been able to say that he handled it poorly and that he should have, you know, been calmer. So I think that's a huge, you should be able to take a huge amount of solace in that. I do. I do.

I just, I also, I'm like, I felt out of control. And I knew that I couldn't bring it together. And I just, it's just like, that's the exact kind of thing that I am desperately trying. That's the, that's one of the big, long tales of my experience with my dad that is still here that I am desperately, desperately for their sake, trying to figure out how to, how to rein in. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I mean, look, it's the, the the the reason that i was throughout this asking all these questions about tone and whatnot is that i have seen you get in these situations yeah before yeah um and you know it is you're right it's this echo shadow tale whatever it is of your experience

growing up but i i will say though that I think that you get in these situations way less now than you did when we were younger. I think that's true. I think that is true. And I take that as a sign of progress. Yeah. And you know, from this, you can perhaps be better the next time. Yeah. And look, another reason I think you can take comfort and feel like you have a chance of ending this cycle is the very existence of this podcast and this conversation that you are having right now in a public forum in which you are revisiting this incident with regret and vulnerability. I mean, I just that's certainly something that your dad would not have been. No. Yeah. Yeah. You bring up a good that your dad would not have been capable of doing. No, yeah, yeah. You bring up a good point. That makes a lot of sense.

And also at some point, your kids are going to be able to listen to this. Right. And hear something. I mean, imagine if your dad, imagine if a thing like this existed. Right. Jesus Christ. Where your dad was sort of wrestling with the stuff that he had done. Yeah, that would change everything.

It would change my whole conception of him as a human being. Exactly. So that's all I'm saying. Yeah. So that's the saga. I mean, that is a remarkable story. Longer than I was expecting. More involved.

But interesting. I think. I mean, yeah. I think the insight, though, in and you being the asshole is really something because it speaks to this fear that I can tell is so primal for you. I also think that, um, it's interesting that you mentioned that you were the id, you know, you had that sort of rage kind of like your dad, sorry to analogize you with your dad in a moment, but when you meet someone like this man who owns the evil construction

company yeah these other people who have a they don't back down they have a rage themselves yes the two of you together is quite combustible totally exactly you know i'm not going to get into stories now but i have so many i remember there was a coffee shop on labrea where there was a man who ran that coffee shop that you had to run in with. Oh, God, yeah. I wrote a Yelp review on that. Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, because you also wrote a remarkable, scathing, very specific and detailed Yelp review.

Give Danny an ink and quill, and he can really- I'm Hamilton. I'm the Hamilton of Yelp. He can do some damage. These are my Federalist papers. Anyway, I guess my point is that that is interesting. Like, there are a lot of people, I think, that they might see your indignant reaction and just back down. Yeah.

But certain people will not, and then it can be this escalation that can happen. Yes, exactly. Not unlike what happened with your father. And you've got to figure out a way to find an off-ramp to those. Well, and I honestly think your kids are the key. Yeah. Because before, your kids, you didn't, like, you did this in front of me.

I don't think you gave a shit if I saw it. Yeah. But you don't want to repeat this cycle. You're trying to end this here. And I think that moment you had with your son is a really, could be, we'll see, but it could be a really pivotal fulcrum point. I hope so.

Where things turn. Yeah. Okay, so that is it, as they say. They do say it. That is it. That is all. The only other thing that we want to, well, first of all, just a couple of business items.

Housekeeping, I believe is what they say. Please make sure and find us on Apple, Spotify. Is there anything else? There's probably other things. What people often say, I've heard, is wherever you get your podcasts. Right. Wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe, like.

Follow. I think it's follow. I don't think it's, I think subscribe is YouTube. Where you follow a podcast? I think you click follow podcast you subscribe to a youtuber and you follow a podcast listen subscribe or follow we're out of our depth here how about this join us join us join us won't you um so to find us everywhere and then also just a reminder we're coming out every week so there's going to be a new episode in your feed next week. And speaking of, we got a banger folks.

Uh, we got a real banger because in this episode, let me just say something at this moment, Danny doesn't know what it is. Am I right? I don't, I have no, I have no idea.

I know that I'm probably in it and I know that you're probably in it. Yep. Uh, but that's probably it. All right. My producer is showing us what it is. What is it? I can't even.

You turned the thing away. Oh, God. I wish I had a video pod right now. Dan, you're trying to stand up here. It's episode five, How to Destroy a Marriage. We're going to get into the dissolution. Dissolution? Dissolution.

You know, in the way that you blocked out your childhood, it's like you're re-blocking it out while we're making it. I will not remember that we did this podcast in a couple of months. In two years, we'll have to do another one. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, Darren, we should tell this story. People are going to love it. And then we do it again and nobody listens.

Because they're like, we've heard this story before. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, here's a little teaser of what you can expect next week. Why did you have children? Well, it's funny. When people ask me that, the way I would consciously respond is to say several things. Number one, I had children because I'm very interested in exploring the breadth of human experience. And it feels like such a big part of the human experience to be a parent and have a child.

And I wanted to have that experience. I've heard you say that. Yeah. And I think that there's certainly some truth to that. It also just feels like an answer that you say to people. Yeah. About a lot of things. Well, I want to experience things.

I'd like to experience falling off of a building. Sure, sure. When I'm 88, so I'm going to do that. I don't know. Did you just equate being a parent to falling off a building? You said it. You said it, baby. I mean, like, I don't know for sure.

I think there is maybe what you're getting at and maybe what is true is that there's an element of, well, what I'm thinking about is that there's an element of like, are you trying to, am I trying to fix this? I might be getting at that. Or replay it in a more positive way. That's what I mean. Yes, that's what I'm getting at. How dare you? I'm stubborn. There's a part of me that's like, man, somehow not having kids because of my dad would be some kind of capitulation to him.

Don't let the terrorist win. Yeah, and that like having kids and doing what we're doing in this podcast and trying to stop this generational trauma from passing on is the win. Is like creating a next generation of children in my family who are unmoored by my dad's illness is the goal. I love that. Yeah. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.