How To Destroy Everything - Interregnum: How to Destroy the Calm Before the Storm

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Wherein Danny and Darren check in one last time with Sandy and talk about the entirety of her podcast journey. In doing so, they discover the incredible strides that Sandy has made in her own personal evolution. Additonally, Danny and Darren bring on Danny's wife, Katie, to discuss her perspective on how the podcast has changed her husband. And finally, our intrepid hosts make a big announcement about what's next for the show.  Listen to HTDE on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you would like to support this podcast, please consider becoming a patron at www.patreon.com/HowToDestroyEverything. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/DESTROY get on your way to being your best self Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome everyone. Welcome, welcome, welcome as what's his name says on Last Week Tonight. John Oliver? John Oliver, that's how he goes. He goes, welcome, welcome, welcome. Yeah, was that your British accent? No, half-assed. Let's hear it.

No, I don't want to. Listen, I'm not your puppet. I'm not going to juggle for you. Guys, this is the final interregnum of how- Wiccan, Wiccan, Wiccan. There it is. I knew you were going to do it. You're a peacock. The final interregnum of how- WAKEN! WAKEN! WAKEN! There it is, I knew you were gonna do it, you're a peacock. The final interregnum of how to destroy everything.

You're not gonna get to hear this drivel every other week. No, no. You won't have Danny and Darren to kick around anymore. Hey Danny, what is How to Destroy Everything? Well, Darren, it's a podcast about my narcissistic father who died in 2015, the ripples of destruction, how he destroyed his family, his community, his neighborhood, which is similar to a community. And also my exploration of what being his son has been like

and how it's affecting my present day as well. Boy, I think you'd be better at that at this point after all this time. But you know, you're out there and you're trying and you're putting yourself out there. And I think people respect that. I'm not a smart man. Good Lord. The references are off the charts already in this.

So in this final interregnum, we have a few things that we're going to do. Yeah. Number one, we're going to have one more conversation with your mom, Sandy Jacobs. Number two, we're gonna give you all a sneak peek of what's next after the end of this season. Well, we're not only gonna have one more conversation with my mom, we're also gonna have a conversation with my wife.

We're bringing them both together on this episode. Yeah, you forgot. You forgot my wife, dear. Yeah, I forgot your wife! My wife! Um, anyway. My wife! Did you ever have a thought while we're talking? I wonder if we're gonna use this.

Yeah, all the time. Anyway, so we're also gonna get a sneak peek of what's to come after this season of How to Destroy Everything. Yeah, what's next for How to Destroy Everything. I will say that we have no fear, Darren and I will be here for what's next for How to destroy everything

We're not going anywhere So when I said earlier you won't have us to kick around That was a lie You will have us to kick around or whatever you'd like Yeah And also by the way as a reminder next week is the season finale Yes And we will be returning to the Royal Manor

Oh boy Danny you will be going to the Royal Manor I sure will But before we do any of that we Danny, you will be going to the Royal Manor. I sure will. But before we do any of that, we want to give a shout out to one of our Patreon. Yes, one of our Patreon supporters who is on the most expensive tier, the Sandinistas tier. Sandinistas. And today, that shout out is to Susan Townsley, who I actually know, she's in my family.

Oh my gosh. And she's the best. And so Susan, thank you, thank you, thank you for being such a big supporter of the show. We literally could not keep the lights on without you and people like you that are supporting us over there. So thank you. You wouldn't have us to kick around if you weren't supporting the show.

So thank you, Susan. Thank you. So now I think it is time to bring in both your wife and your mom. Do you think that they both deserve the Sandy music? Oh yeah. I think so too. Cue the Sandy music.

Here they are, Sandy and Katie. Hi Katie. I didn't know you were going to be on. Hi Sandy. So good to hear your voice. This is so exciting. It is. I love ya. I'd like to welcome my wife and my mother

to the podcast for our final interregnum of the season. No welcome to me, I mean I'm here too, Dani. Well you've been welcomed, Darren. The podcast has already started, the episode has already, this is not the beginning of the podcast. You're right, I'm living in the real moment where we just joined for this interview, but you're right. No, no, no. I've already been here.

I guess we thought... What did we think, Darren? We thought it would be a good idea to put you guys together. I don't know why. Why? Why did we put you guys together? Well, look, this is it, as you mentioned. We're wrapping up the season here, and it seemed like a good time to check in with Sandy

because we haven't had an interregnum, Sandy, with you since we had the episodes in which we talked to Danny's brother, and also the episode in which we talked to Tom Ranolo about the support group. And we also realized that as we're coming to the end, that it might be nice to bring Katie on to talk a little bit about you, Danny, and Katie, and how things have shifted for you, or maybe not,

as a human being, a husband, and a father. Great. That's on the agenda. So that sounds really fun. Um, so... You can just hear the insincerity, can't you? You can just hear the- Yes, well, I mean, I mean,

cause it's weird. I mean, it's not insincere. It's like, this is a weird thing to do. To be like, to bring people on that know me and be like, hey, what's Danny like now? You know, it's just, it's just a very strange ask. You're saying this now, like only now this has become weird. This entire process hasn't been weird until this moment.

I mean, the whole thing is bizarre. The whole thing is weird. This public airing of everything. Well, listen, so I guess let's start with you, Mom. One question that I want you to go back to the beginning for a second. Just as the podcast was, when we were starting this whole journey. And I want you to go back to the beginning for a second, just as the podcast was, when we were starting this whole journey.

And I want you to try to tell us like, what were your expectations for this podcast at that time? If any really, if there were any at all. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I think I was hoping that they would be good. You know, I mean that this would be good. I really got excited when I saw how you guys put together the podcasts.

They were much better than any other podcasts that I had listened to. Well, but were you, did you think at the beginning though, oh, this is gonna be a podcast and it'll be fun to do? I mean, like what about your own sense of like the emotions that you, behind it? I thought it would be fun to do. It would be a fun way to get closer to Dani

and also to things that had gone on during the, you know, in the podcast that were brought out. Well, were you worried at all about, you know, kind of going public with all of this very personal stuff? Somewhat, but it seems like nobody, except for just a few people, really not that many people here have called me up and complained about it, at least. You know, nobody's really complained to me that they didn't like it. So I enjoyed doing it more because of that.

But you've talked to us in the past about how a fear of yours in your life has been that people won't believe you. Did you worry? Oh, that's right. Did you have fears that we were going to put this out into the world and people wouldn't believe you? Yes, at first. But then when we also when we got all the proof,

you know, when all the documentation and everything, it seemed like that went away. You mean your fear went away? Yes, the fear went away because we had it wasn't like I was just making up stuff and I had no proof. Uh huh. I mean, there's a lot of things, though, that we haven't had proof for on this. It wasn't like I was just making up stuff and I had no proof. Uh-huh. I mean, there's a lot of things though that we haven't had proof for on this podcast. Well, most of them we had enough proof to satisfy me.

Oh, interesting. And do you feel now in your day-to-day life any different than you did before this started? Yes. I feel like I've taken more chances with people, with talking to people about these things and... Can you give me an example? Okay. This is one thing I did want to talk about, was the last episode with your brother, the

two episodes with your brother. Especially the last episode, I was feeling closer to your brother because how he looked at his relationship with Richard was really somewhat of the same way that I do. Wow. Like, I really didn't feel that I was, that I could blame him because of his mental illness. And I think that seems to be the way he was too. And it seems like if you when I had that kind of attitude I wouldn't get depressed I wouldn't get stuck on it or depressed on it on him on Richard because especially even after he passed away it didn't bother, you know, it was all over. So I didn't get stuck in that,

except that my feelings did, are somewhat muted, and I think his are too. Wow. So you found in listening to those interviews, a kind of kinship with Danny's brother in both the kind of, the cutting off, I should say, of emotions to an extent, and also the way that you don't blame Richard. And you look at that as having helped you avoid feeling too depressed or overwhelmed by everything. Right. That's true. I mean, it's interesting, you know, we've talked about this a little bit, Danny, but like you're the outlier here in terms of how you've reacted.

I sure am. No one's pissed off but me. Like you're the outlier here in terms of how you've reacted. I sure am. No one's pissed off but me. But how do you know that yours isn't the right way to deal with it? I kind of had blocked my feelings off and I think. Yeah, I don't know that there is a right way. Yeah, I don't know either.

I know that what I know though is that, what I will say is that given a choice between blocking my feelings off and not, even if it means it will be more painful, I will go with not every single time. Yeah, see, I think I should too. I mean, that's why I keep going to therapy because I want to feel my feelings

Yeah, so one feeling that I was feeling After listening to the podcast with your brother was that I wanted it seems like you were opening yourselves both of you to each other and I wanted more of that with him and And so I was, all right, like you guys were talking to each other and saying, oh, it's really nice to be able to, if that you were feeling that this has helped you to get closer to each other

and that you were gonna try to talk to each other more, you know, about these things, you know. Well, I want that too. With your brother. With me? No, I have it with you. With my brother, yeah. I want it with your brother, and it really kind of upset me, you know, cause I feel like I don't really have it.

It's almost like he puts up with me. That's how I feel. Interesting. So anyway, so I called him and I kind of talked to him a little bit about things. I didn't actually say that what I'm saying to you. Yeah. I hope that I can open up to him more through talking with him.

I really do. I'm not sure, but I don't more through talking with him. I really do. I'm not sure, but I don't wanna be bugging him. You know what I mean? I wanna have it be a natural thing. So I just have to see what happens, I guess. Sometimes I get real scared and I don't call him, because I feel like he'll be judgmental or something. Although I don't know for sure why I feel that way.

Well, it reminds me a little bit of how you used to, you said that you used to be afraid that Danny, you know, even with Danny, that if he was short with you, that you had this deep-seated fear that, oh, you're going to, you know, he's gonna like cut you off or it's gonna be kind of a Richard situation,

which was not really the case. It was, you know, it was the trauma, I think, residual trauma from Richard. So I remember that. So I have to remember that with your brother also. Maybe he doesn't want to call me mom because of just the feelings he gets by remembering how Richard used to act. Let me just take a step back for a second and say how cool it is that you just, mom, you just like I think that calling

you just, mom, you just, like, I think that calling my brother, having that first conversation with him must have been very difficult. Yes. And it's so amazing to me that you did that and you're willing to do that. And it's, I'm really, I love that this experience with this podcast gave you a little bit of courage to do that and sort of greased those wheels a little bit, no matter what happens as a result of that conversation. Like, that's pretty amazing. Yeah, I wanted to do that. So see, this really did help me, this podcast. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

You know, Dani, we live in a society where there's a lot of glorifying of individualism, but I think it's important to remember. That's America, baby. That's America, but I think it's important to remember that you can't and you shouldn't try to do everything alone. You need to have a support system, and that can sometimes be your community, your family, your friends, but sometimes I found that the best support system can be a therapist as well.

Oh, man. Well, let me tell you this. I am fully confident that this podcast would not exist. We would not be reading this ad without my own therapeutic experience. I thought you were going to say without your father, but then again, it's your father who, of course, led you into that therapeutic experience. Yeah, we could go all the way back to the original. But it is the confidence that I got through therapy that made me even the inkling of the idea that I could pull this off.

Man, I completely agree. And BetterHelp makes therapy so easy because it's fully online. So it's convenient, it's also affordable, and by the way, they serve over 5 million people worldwide. And on BetterHelp, you can access this huge network of literally 30,000 credentialed therapists in a whole wide range of specialties. That's right. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash destroy to get 10% off your first month.

That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash destroy. And honestly, like, Mom, I think that maybe you don't quite know how you come off. But I cannot conceive of a universe in which you have to would have to worry about sort of bothering my brother, you know what I mean? Like, like to ask to have a conversation and talk about. about sort of bothering my brother. You know what I mean? Like to ask to have a conversation and talk about things. Oh, I'll tell you where that came from.

I, the first time I tried it, I thought to myself, well, I can't call him in the evening because that's when he's with his whole family. And so I kept putting it off. And then I couldn't figure out when I could call him. And then I thought to myself, okay, I'm going to call him in the morning because kids get up early. And so he'll be up. Okay, so I called him in the morning and it was and I woke them up.

And I was so embarrassed. I thought I thought to myself, you know what? Their kids are old enough. They they go downstairs and they have screen time. And so they don't get up. And so I felt really embarrassed. You know, why? So they didn't have they could have turned off their phone.

They I don't understand why why you're beating yourself up over this. Well, because I should I should have known better. I used to do things like that every once in a while, called at a not a good time. And so this kind of, you know, I thought I wasn't doing that anymore. Like sometimes I would text them, this was a while back, not now,

but and the text, the noise it makes would wake them up. Yeah. So, yeah. So. I think that you are so afraid the noise it makes would wake them up. Yeah. So, yeah, so. I think that you are so afraid of that relationship fraying that things that people would not give a second thought to, oh, I called too early, okay, are seem to be a very big deal for you.

Yes. That you feel like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. It feels like you're walking on eggshells when you maybe don't have to be. Yeah, that's true.

I feel like that when I go visit them, I feel the same way. Yeah. Kind of like I'm walking on eggshells. And do you think that that's them giving you that feeling? No, I think it's me. I think it's me. Yeah, I think it's you too. Yeah.

Yeah. It's about recognizing where you are, that you have a relationship with both of your sons and both of your son's families, and that it's not gonna just go away. Yeah, that's true. To me, that's such a beautiful thing, Sandy, as we're again barreling towards the end of this season of the show is that the end of the story is that Richard isn't around anymore, but you are.

And you are with your two sons, you guys are together on holidays, you have your grandchildren, you have these relationships, you have a family, you are the the matriarch of this family, and it's, you know, it's a happy ending, and that's just absolutely heartwarming. Yes, it is. And I'm going to really miss doing this because of this time with you guys and just opening up and everything. I'm just going to really miss it. I'm going to miss it too, Mom.

We will miss it too. Yeah. But you know what, Mom, the thing is you and I can talk anytime. So we don't need the microphones. We don't need this. That's true. If you want to make it a three-way call, pull Darren in. I'll join you guys for a three-way call on occasion.

Why not? Oh, okay. Sweet. Okay. Yeah. So maybe we should talk to my wife here who has been silently sitting here during this. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to react to any of that. No, no, no, it's all good.

It's the way we brought you guys on at the same time. I see. So, hi, wife. Hello. Hello. What, I guess maybe a question, the same question for you, which is like, what did you think about this podcast at the very beginning? Well, it seemed like a emotional journey you were interested in taking. I wanted to support that and I do support that. I difficult to put so much of your self out there for others to hopefully connect with,

but sometimes judge. You know, they're, that's difficult. And I don't like it either when people, you know, are judgmental or when I hear that somebody called you a narcissist in a comment, I bristle. But I understand that it's all part of it. Anyone who puts themselves out into the world is going to get trolls and people misunderstanding and people judging because they don't truly know the full picture, etc. Was there any part of you when we started this that thought this was a bad idea? Yeah, sure. A little part of me.

Not creatively, you know, I mean, I think you guys are so talented, know what you're doing and know how to tell a story and all of that. Just the emotional aspect of it. I wasn't sure also, I didn't really fully understand or I just didn't have a total like, it's hard to have a total picture of sort of how much you would be delving into your personal emotions about each incident, you know, per episode. As it's gone on, I understand, you know, a great deal. And that makes a lot of sense. But part of it, I thought, would just be more of a retelling of a lot of what Richard put you all through.

And certainly there would be, you know, commenting on that, but you have really, really delved so deeply into your personal relationship and feelings, your relationships with other people in your family. I'm not sure if I realized the full emotional scope. Had I, I would have been more nervous. But, damn. To be honest, I would have been more nervous. To be honest, I don't, I'm not sure that we realized the full emotional scope that we were going to be

diving into. Uh, because I think we might've felt similarly. Also, I don't think that I didn't really think anybody was going to be listening to this. I honestly, when we started this was like, you know, we'll, we'll send it around and there will be a few listeners. But even from my perspective, if I had known we were going to have the kind of audience that we were and delve into the emotional depth that we did, I might have asked my question of is this a good idea a little bit more fervently and behind the scenes and been like, you don't

really want to do this, do you? But once the ship left the dock, it was hard to turn it around. What about you, Danny? What about me, Darren? I mean, you know, am I wrong? Like we didn't know we were gonna be going to these emotional depths nor have this kind of audience.

No, no, no, no and no. no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, was out there, I knew there were things that I think I knew obviously more that there were things that were going to be difficult. But I just didn't have a full conception of it. And frankly, I'm glad because I don't think I don't know that I would have done it. But the way that it happened, it was just sort of on its way. And then the train was leaving the station and we were just sort of like building the plane as it was flying to mix automobiles. I had I said a boat. You've now had a train and a plane. So we've covered it all. Danny, are you happy now, though, that you did it? I am. I mean, happy is a weird word. It's, I don't know that it feels like happiness.

I feel content. I'm proud that we've done this. I'm proud of myself for sort of pushing myself through this emotional gauntlet. And I'm proud of creatively of the work that Darren and I and our producer, Michael Grant Terry have done to create something that I think is really special. Um, so that, that's the feeling that I feel.

And I guess I feel, I feel a little bit more contentedness at the ways that the elements of our family have thoughtawed. I can see though that that's still like, you know, that's an in process thing that is going to play itself out way beyond this podcast. So I'm not, I guess the reason that Happy, it feels like this doesn't quite, even though this is,

we're really getting to the end of the podcast, it doesn't feel like an end to me because I know that this is an emotional journey that will continue. Right. So when I met you, the whole, your whole family was in such a different place. Um, emotionally, Richard was still alive for goodness sake, you know, wreaking havoc. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, my cousin said something to me recently,

which was that like, she had always thought that we were a family that talked about things, but that one of the things this podcast made clear is how much we didn't talk about things. And I'm very proud that I have forced that conversation to begin. And I do think I forced it. Like, I don't think that this ever, that that conversation would ever have begun

had it been not for this weird thing. So that's very pleasing to me. So you hear that listeners, if you wanna start a conversation in your family, start a podcast. Force it, force it, force it. Danny, have a podcast. Force it. Or force it. Force it. Force it. Danny, have you thought about, I mean, you and I have talked about as we kind of wrap up this year plus of deep diving into your life, that we are excited to get back to writing

fiction, obviously. Yes. And not have to, the navel gazing and the, you know, not have to adhere to the reality of things. But have you thought about on an emotional level, the, the come down of like, you know, these revelations we've been having on a sometimes weekly basis and, and just the invest, investigating on a daily basis, you know, like we're working on the script right now. Like it's like, it's going to go away. Have you thought about how that will feel or how you'll handle that?

I have. And maybe it's maybe I'm wrong about this, but it will. In this moment, it feels like relief. Like, you know, you know what? It feels like, Derek, it feels like when we've both times when we've wrapped up production on our movies. It feels like, okay, like I just need, like this has been a lot, and this has been intense, and I'm looking forward, you know, on our movies,

it's I'm looking forward to being in the editing room and the quiet of that, I'm just having some distance between this. Like, you can't do this forever. You can't make a film forever. You'll go crazy. But there's also sadness in that moment, right? There's the sadness of something that you worked really hard on that is being completed.

And you're never gonna get the same group of people, when you're making a film, it's the same crew and cast. They're never gonna be back together in this moment, creating this thing together again. And there's a death to that. And I do feel that here, as you know, with our creative team, and you and I, and my mom, and everybody that's sort of been willing to jump on board this thing

even if they didn't want to like my brother mm-hmm I'm gonna miss I'm gonna miss that at the same time that I feel relief Katie have you we talked about kind of where your head was at at the beginning of this now that we're reaching or nearing the end have you you seen any change in Dani, you know, on a day-to-day basis? Yes, I think so. I think it seems like this opening up the lines of communication has even more. Because I know that you, Sandy, you and Dani, were always pretty open with talking to each other about this stuff, I think. But I feel like diving in further,

it does seem like... It's hard to describe, but like you were saying, Dani, almost not peace, because I... would not describe you as a peaceful person. No one would. No one would. First presence. It's what you want in a husband, right?

You want whatever the opposite of peaceful is. Chaos? Sure. No. A ball of anxiety? Yes. Well, that's... Hmm. Chaos? Sure. No. A ball of anxiety? Yes. Well, that's...

It does seem like there is an added depth to your overall view of your father, your family, your place in the family, you know, your mom's experience. I know for me also, if I can make this moment about me, since you asked me about Danny, that I have talked with you Sandy over the years about some of this, but getting to hear you interviewed and you really opening up and has been just wonderful. And has given me even more insight into you as a person and you really opening up and has been just wonderful

and has given me even more insight into you as a person, what a wonderful person you are, as I've always known, how badass you are for getting away from an unimaginable tornado of a person. Right? Yeah. That just was, I can't even imagine extricating yourself from that situation. And then it's still following you litigiously for ever,

for so long. I feel like I've gained a greater understanding of your brother's journey. Just all of that, I feel like I see in Dani as well. And I feel like I've, Dani, I could be wrong here, but I've seen you sort of go from maybe a little more fearful or not fearful, maybe a little bit more aware of

other people's opinions It seems as though as time has gone on you've sort of transcended caring about What other people might think? Because you have sort of found some peace in your own what other people might think, because you have sort of found some peace in your own process, in your own journey, in your own relationship to your dad. Wow.

That's interesting. Yeah, I guess so. You have a certain grounding inside. I think it's harder for people you know, people throwing things at you to bother you. I don't even know that wasn't a metaphor or an analogy or anything, but. No, no, I, I, I, what I think you're totally right about is. And I think the reason that that happened is because I, I feel like I have such a better totality of understanding of my dad and my mom and my dad's journey. And so somebody's opinion about him or our relationship

or our family or whatever is going to be less impactful in that way because I have so much more confidence that like, oh, no, I think I have a handle on it. Like, I think I know everything there is to know. I think I know how it affected me. I've done the work to think about how it affected my journey and affected other people. And so that confidence, I think you're right, has made me less sensitive to the perspectives of others about him.

Which is, as I'm saying, it's such a stark contrast, I'm realizing, to like, I'm just, I was just flashed to when I was a little kid and be next to him in some public space when he's causing some huge kerfuffle. And the shame that I felt in that moment was, I think, partly born out of just a lack of confidence. I mean, I was a little kid, but a lack of confidence that I could understand what this meant

and what the world saw and didn't see in my dad in that moment and saw and didn't see in me in that moment too. Like I thought, oh, are they gonna think that I'm like him or aligned with him or whatever? That's all just coming from this place of not being able to understand, not having that understanding of the world

and my dad's relationship to it. I don't know What you're saying rambling, but no no what you're saying. I think makes sense and it actually Reminds me a little bit of you Sandy. We talked earlier about ways in which you were like Danny's brother in terms of the cutting off of emotion, but in terms of the the feelings of shame That were transferred to yourself and the lack of confidence about yourself that Danny's describing for himself reminds me a little bit of your experience, Sandy.

What do you think of that? Yeah, I do think of that because I didn't think anybody would ever believe me if I started talking about Richard. So I just stopped, you know, I stopped talking about him. And I didn't want people to be judgmental because they were before thinking that I was making it up. But now I don't, it doesn't bother me. I look around and I see, I know people are listening to this and if they don't believe me, they

don't believe me. You know, I don't, I'm not worried about it. Well and you talked before also about how, you know, whether it was like the neighbors where you weren't invited to things like you felt excluded as if it were about you. And that reminds me a little bit of Danny talking about the shame that he would feel and the opinions people were having about him when really the center of the storm was always Richard. That's right. It was never you guys. It was always Richard. That's true. Yeah.

One question I have, Mom, is do you have any advice for people who may be going through what you were going through with dad, looking back on it now? Well, I think the number one thing would be to get psychological counseling and keep at it, because it might take a while. Don't just give up after your divorce is over. Are you saying psychological, like people,

people to get the- Yeah, a counselor. For themselves. For themselves. Yeah, for themselves, not for the husband because that's not gonna work. For themselves. And keep doing it even after the divorce is over because you still have a lot to deal with.

Yeah. Do any other advice you have for folks other than to seek counseling? Don't be hard on yourself. Start thinking that you did the best you could. Can I say one? Can I just tell Sandy that I love her? Oh, I love you too.

Oh. I feel very grateful to have you as my mother-in-law and have you in my life. Oh, and I feel the same with you. You're just wonderful. I can't wait to see you next month. I know, we're gonna have fun. Yeah.

Well, okay. So guys, so mom, this is the last interview I know. That we're going to have on season one of How to Destroy Everything with Sandy Jacobs. Wow, I am just like, what a journey. What a journey. Yes, it's amazing.

What a crazy, crazy thing we've all done. Truly. Mom, is there anything that you'd like to say to the listeners before you go? Well, I just, I you'd like to say to the listeners before you go? Well, I guess I want to say that to those of you who reached out to me or I happened to run into and you said that you supported me and you loved listening to my story, just thank you so much because that really helped. Okay. Well, with that, we'll say goodbye

to my mom and my wife. Catherine. Bye bye. I love you, thank you, bye bye. Bye. Bye. Love you. Love you.

Love you. Boy oh boy oh boy, your mom and your wife are wonderful people. Yep, what man what a journey for my mom. Yes. Unbelievable I'm just blown away. She continues to surprise and inspire me. Yes. With her growth and her strength. Yeah. She's amazing. She's amazing. Yeah. So let's turn from there, the past, towards the future, shall we? Beyond the finale of How to Destroy Everything and to What is

Next. Yeah, so we're gonna explain some things logistically to you now so that you guys know what to expect. So first of all, next week we had the finale of season one and then we are going to be taking two weeks off. I mean we deserve a little bit of a vacation. Give us a little break, guys. We're doing the best we can. But then, after that, we are going to be putting on the live show that we recorded in St. Louis onto the feed. Oh man, it was a great time, and we cannot wait to share that with you guys

on April 15th on Tax Day. Woohoo! Just a present for you while you're paying the government money. And then, and then everybody, so we have been fielding a ton of questions about like, what are you guys going to do next on the how to destroy everything feed? Like what is this going to be? Is there a future? Yes. Yeah. And so we are so, so excited to announce... Drum roll please. Let me have a drum roll please. On April 22nd, we will be presenting the first episode of How to Destroy Everything Presents, Toughen Up.

We could not be more excited about this show, and Danny, why don't you tell us a little bit about it? Basically, if you guys remember the episode that we recorded, How to Destroy an Irish Rabbi, with Stephen Kieran, my improv mentor, we talked a lot about his family and the kind of stories in his life, and it was so compelling to us. And it felt like the way that he talks about his show

is so different from ours structurally, but also the Venn diagram of what he's dealing with and the trauma, the tromedy of it, which we often talk about is tonally, felt so right for something that we wanted to use our feed for. It's an unbelievable story that is, when you say tromedy, I think that's exactly right. The way we describe it sometimes is that the tragedy and the comedy are happening simultaneously. Yeah, because that's how it often feels to us who've been through that kind of thing sometimes. And for me, listening to his story, I kind of feel like what maybe some of the audience members

who listen to us have felt like because I felt just like on this road and on this journey, kind of looking internal to my own experiences as well. And I'm just so excited to go on this journey with Stephen. Yeah, and that's- And I guess also with you. And that's, but I think that's key, that we're going, I want everybody to know that we're going on this road too. So it's going to be, you know, we're still figuring out exactly what the structure is going to be,

but it's going to be an episode of his story of Toughen Up. And then you and I and Stephen are gonna be in the studio together talking about that episode and getting deeper into it in every single episode of the show. Yes, and who knows if things continue to happen to you in your life, which knowing you, I'm sure they will. We'll keep you all abreast of that as they happen. For sure.

We'll update on things, the ongoings. We wanted to bring Stephen in though, here in this interregnum, just to talk a little bit more about this and how it's gonna go. So let's go to that conversation now. Okay, Mr. Stephen Kieran, here we are. In the studio.

Welcome, welcome. In the flesh. I am in the flesh. Thank you for noticing. The last time that we spoke for this podcast was you being a supporting character in... A guest, one might say. ...my family's story.

And now we are going to be talking about you as the main character in your family's story, which is going to be how to destroy everything presents toughen up. I gotta say, real quick, though, can you just hear the joy in Danny's voice that he is gonna be how to destroy everything presents toughen up. I gotta say real quick though, can you just hear the joy in Danny's voice that he is no longer the main character? Like he's delicious. Out of the hot seat, finally.

Out of the hot seat. The guillotine is being wheeled towards you. Yeah, that's right. There's one wheel, a guillotine? I don't know. It depends on the model. Some of the later models, I think they took it to the people. Once they had the wheel.

Once they had the wheel. First thing, forget which. The guillotine was invented prior to the people. Once they had the wheel. Once they had the first thing. Forget which. The guillotine was invented prior to the wheel. I believe you're right. Or a version of it. If I know humans. This is a history project.

If I know humans, that's the order. And I do. Kieran, how are you feeling about this prospect now of doing this and airing it in a really, really public way? What were you at with it? Well, similar to what you've been talking about throughout, you sort of have some trepidation because you feel like, oh wow,

have I checked in with absolutely everybody that this is okay? And I feel pretty good about it so far. I've told everybody what's gonna be going on and are you okay with this, especially my two sisters? Yes. I mean, I have a lot of other siblings, as we'll learn, that are my brother cousins and my sister cousin.

Oh yes. Episode, I forget, maybe five. But with Sheila and Lisa, they're ready to go. And in the end, here's the deal. It's a love letter to my parents, and I feel like it's a love letter in many ways to just my family, even though we were on fire for so long, and in some cases still are on fire, smoldering

in some cases with any luck. Do you have any, obviously you've gone on this journey already with your family. You've- Yeah, the one man show version of this. Exactly. Danny hadn't done that, but also like, we thought we knew where it was gonna go.

And what we didn't realize was the emotional journey that Danny himself was going to go on. Do you have any trepidation about that? Like, you're talking here about these other family members and me checking in with them. What about Stephen Kieran? Like, is there any fear of what it might be to go through this for you?

Yeah, the image I had early on, somebody described it as a turkey pan, that when you start to clean a turkey pan, it's gonna get, like, really crazy, and you're gonna think, why did I even start cleaning a turkey pan, that when you start to clean a turkey pan, it's gonna get like really crazy, and you're gonna think, why did I even start cleaning the turkey pan? I should have done my best to maybe just bury the turkey pan in the yard or something.

So once you are comfortable to some degree with the miasma early on of the actual processing, then you can start to understand that it's gonna level out over time and as you start to sort of seek a balance from where your past is living you and now you're able to experience having lived your past is again how it was put to me. So in that way, I would say no, I'm not too concerned about that, maybe naively, but I know it brings up a lot in other people. Yes.

In my family. Yeah. And also people that reach out. Yes. The first time I ever did the show was in San Francisco at the Throckmorton Theater in Mill Valley. And I remember I walked outside, walked into the lobby after the show, everybody was milling about it. I asked my friend, where's your wife? I won't use their names. And he said, ah, she's outside.

And I was like, and the way he said it, I thought, I think I'm just gonna march outside and see what's going on. And so I marched outside and she just was on a bench off to the side of the theater, just sobbing. Oh wow. From her own story from her own story. Her own story.

Because that's what ultimately, as we know, sort of an unexpected, I don't know, byproduct or gift or curse, whatever you want to call it, that this is suddenly, kicks the door open for a lot of people and their family stories. Something we don't talk about, or maybe you do Darren, in later episodes, but. What do you mean? Like Darren's scenario? Every family. Yeah.

Every single family, it doesn't matter. Absolutely. The work of Gabor Mate, right? And trauma, family trauma, generational trauma. I would say just start looking up the tree. Oh, yeah. And it may not, yeah, you're going to carry it. For sure.

Well, that's been one of the revelations for us, is all the people that we've heard from, like this woman out on the bench sobbing. We've just gotten email after email from people who, this is digging up stuff for them. They're processing while listening to Danny process. Yeah, it's extraordinary. Has anybody in your family, as you've gone around and said,

hey, I'm going to be doing this thing, has anybody expressed any reservations? Or has everybody been sort of fully supportive in gung ho? I wouldn't say gung ho. That's a strong enthusiasm. You know what? My sister Lisa's g strong enthusiasm. Although, you know what? Lisa, my sister Lisa's gung ho. Lisa says pretty much, you have to do this.

And also so that it wasn't all in vain. Yeah. It wasn't all in vain. Yes. That's something you used to say, Danny. I did. I said that a lot. It's like, if I could at least turn that into something,

it will have given it an additional value. Yeah. I mean, again, these are sort of sound bites, or might sound trite, but Richard freaking Roar has that great saying that any pain you don't transform, you will transmit. So it's a form of the buck stops here. If you're doing what he calls the shadow boxing with your past and your family's past, the legacy of what, you're only sick of your secrets,

and family secrets are the most well-kept of all, for good reason, because it's a house of cards, but you have to learn maybe over time to just let the house of cards collapse to see what's inside. I don't know, I've lost my, I kind of went off the rails there. It started great,

but then I just sort of flipped the motor home at the end. That will not be the last time we go off the rails. I can promise you that. That's the whole thing. I've been off the rails for quite some time. Here's to rail skipping. Yeah, so the show is going to be a lot of this also. Yeah, I think that we've all talked about it

and it's gonna be these pre-written kind of episodes that you have. And then- Pre-recorded, yeah. Pre-recorded, and then the three of us are gonna sit down and talk about it. I think in some ways, it's gonna be like what the first season of the show has been, which is these toggling back and forth

between the interregnums and the main episodes, that's gonna all be compressed into each episode, I think is the way that I'm thinking about it. What do you think, Kieran? Yes, no, I think that'd be great. And as we listen to each episode and then go straight in, as we, yeah, it and then go straight in. Yes, exactly. As we, yeah, it'll be fresh that way.

One question I have is, cause you know, we've talked a lot about the tone of how to destroy everything as a tromedy. And we described your toughen up in that same way. Do you think that that's accurate? Well, I call it a tramoir, a traumatic memoir. So I might call mine a tramoir. We're all just combining words.

Yeah, but yeah, very much so. I mean, it's very, there's a lot of darkness, so to speak. Again, I even hesitate to put that label on it because it's too, anything that's made in the sort of corporate speak, yeah, or is privatized by the culture, yeah, you got to go you got to go underneath that especially when it's stuff around family. So, but yeah, there's a lot of trauma, there's a lot of tragedy, a lot of tragedy in ours and yet through it and not just like tears of a clown, sort of cliche way, but

there's a lot of, you know, I have to say this, it's very Irish. It's very Irish. It's very whistling in the graveyard, you know, and just the wake, you know, waking the dead. And it's just like, there's something sort of straight up about it, hopefully, right into the headwind. Well, what I, what I love about that is that I think in what we've been doing, it's been very Jewish. So Jewish. And we're going from just a very Jewish version of this to a very Irish version. And there's something that gives me great joy about that.

So tell me more about that. Like when you say very Jewish, I can guess, but what do you mean when you say it? Boy, I mean, it's hard to say because Dane and I are so Jewish. So Jewish. It's like seeing, how do you see yourself? Well, I definitely think there's an undercutting

of tragedy with humor. Yes. Like it just was a way of getting through it. There's also a questioning of things. I think that, you know, as Jews, you know, you're taught, actually, to question everything, including, you know, the religious texts as well. There's a constant education and questioning and... Yeah, debate. ...and that debate, I think, trying to interrogate what happened is very Jewish,

not to mention, obviously, I mean, we literally called your episode, How to Destroy an Irish Rabbi. Danny and I just, you know, yeah,, obviously, I mean, we literally called your episode, How to Destroy an Irish Rabbi. Danny and I just, you know, yeah, the humor, I think, is a big part of it. I think both of those things is what it, plus just my kind of, the tenor of my voice, let's just say, as well. Yeah.

Ah! Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah. I would say also the way it's told a lot of times, toughen up, that there's a music in it. Yes. That that's also, I try to, you know, it's like an epic poem in some ways. Yes, that's right.

Not to get too crazy about it. No, no, I think that's totally right. And I think we really responded to that. It just in this, in how different it is, but similar. It's like, it's a whole different species, and yet they are siblings. The DNA is similar, yes. Yes, right. Yeah, different way to tell the story in a different medium maybe.

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. One other thing that I'm just really excited to explore is you set this up by saying in a way it's a love letter to your parents. I would not describe what we did in season one as a love letter to Richard.

It's an in to the yin, yeah. I love that. There's an interesting juxtaposition there about where you're at, Steven, with your parents and where Danny was at with his dad. Very different and yet, we're exploring. Two sides of a coin. Yeah. Very different and yet, you know, we're exploring. Two sides of the coin. Yeah.

I had to kind of go deep into my parents' experiences and to see what they were up against. I mean, I make the joke and I hope I'm not tipping the hand. Well, maybe, well, okay, the line about my dad is two wars, one divorce, no therapy. So it's like, when I really think about what two wars was and what dad was before he made it, my dad lied to get into World War II.

He wanted to fight with his brothers. My dad was 17. He became a paratrooper because it paid more money and they dress better. That's really the truth. And my dad was a paratrooper in World War II and Korea. So the fact that he was a combat veteran of two wars, what that does to someone as a father, as a provider,

I mean, dad just was sorting it out himself. And leading up to that, he had all his generational trauma growing up on a farm, 14 children, and all that Irish, you know, just baggage. So that was just my dad. And then you've got my mom and like, all bets are off there. Yeah, yeah.

I mean. Oh yeah. Oh, I can't wait for folks to meet your mom and your dad. They are just wonderful characters. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm excited for us to get into it. Yeah, me too. I am too. Yeah.

I'm nervous. Here we go. Here we go. Okay, so look forward to how to destroy everything presents toughen up on April 22nd, starting April 22nd. But that's in the future. First, let's talk about next week because-

Which is also in the future. That's also in the future. I guess let's talk about next week because... Which is also in the future. That's also in the future. I guess distant future, last future. You get it. So next week we have a season finale of How to Destroy Everything. We're going back to the Royal Manor, baby. So let's end this interregnum with a clip from that episode. So Danny, you're back in the Royal Manor. Yes. Surrounded by all these wonderful people. Yeah. The groundhogs. We've had a the Royal Manor. Yes. Surrounded by all of these wonderful people. Yep, the groundhogs. We've had a little bit to drink.

Yes. Have you had a little bit to drink? Yes. It was a very quick yes. How are you feeling? Good, well, weird, terrible. Good, weird, terrible. Yeah, no, it's very, it's bizarre.

I mean, I feel very strange. I feel like this is sort of an out-of-body experience. I feel like Thank you all for making this happen and being so supportive of the podcast and and Me and Darren and my mom, but it's bizarre. It's like I'm traveled in some kind of Alternate, you know multiverse, you know what I mean, where it's the exact same physical space, but it is 100% different. Check us out at Apple, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.

And if you have any stories to share about Richard Jacobs, you can reach us at Iknowrichardjacobsatgmail.com. Also, I'm gonna be honest with you guys, we need all the help we can get. So if you want to support this podcast, please consider joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash how to destroy everything. That's P A T R E O N. Yeah, we have all kinds of stuff we're going to share pictures, videos, all kinds of special treats for our patrons.

Also please find us on our social, specifically Instagram, at How to Destroy Everything. You can also find me personally there at Danny A. Jacobs. Special shout out to Spotify Studios for hosting us in this beautiful studio space in downtown Los Angeles.