How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - A How to Fail Miniseries: Ross Barr

Episode Date: December 2, 2020

For this four week miniseries, we'll be introducing you to four 'ordinary' people with extraordinary stories as part of a one-off How To Fail miniseries in partnership with Grey Goose.Today, my guest is Ross Barr. When Ross was 20,  his dad died suddenly and unexpectedly, and he turned to acupuncture to help him deal with his heartbreak. After one session of treatment, he knew this was his path. Now, Ross is one of the UK's most sought-after acupuncturists, who counts the Duke and Duchess of Sussex among his clients.He joins me to talk about what acupuncture has taught him, coping with grief, understanding balance, treating survivors of the Cambodian genocide and why what connects us is stronger than what sets us apart. But he's really funny too. So we also chat about what his mum said when she found out he was treating royalty, why we all need to be 'a bit more 1990s' about life and why his friends call him 'the Disney Prince' (he's going to hate that I mentioned this but hey ho, he's a dear pal so I'm sure he'll cope...).I hope you enjoy the episode! *Ross J. Barr Supplements are a new range of natural, food state supplements to support men and women trying to conceive, as well as to nourish expectant mothers from conception right through to the fourth trimester. Available to order here*You can book an appointment with Ross here*Looking for a Christmas stocking filler? I can highly recommend Failosophy: A Handbook For When Things Go Wrong which contains 7 Failure Principles developed from two-and-bit years worth of accumulated podcast wisdom.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you! To contact us, email [e-mail] You can buy our fantastic PODCAST MERCH here.*Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Ross Barr @rossjbarrclinic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This special one-off mini-series of How to Fail is sponsored by Grey Goose. Grey Goose believe in live victoriously because life, as we know, is full of moments, big and small, planned and spontaneous, and those moments need something worthy of the occasion. They deserve to be celebrated. Grey Goose does just this, a vodka of unique quality, expertly crafted for smoothness and exceptional taste, made with the finest

ingredients, single origin Picardy wheat and spring water from natural limestone. A distinctive vodka made without compromise to elevate any moment, Grey Goose brings fun and positivity whatever the occasion you're marking, because when you live victoriously, you transform those moments into lasting memories. Thank you very much to Grey Goose, and please drink responsibly. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day here, and welcome to this one-off special mini-series of How to Fail. Now, one of the things that you wonderful listeners have repeatedly asked me to do is to feature normal people as guests on the podcast. But of course, there's no such thing as a normal person. We are all unique and interesting and resilient and contradictory and loving and wise and funny and sad and experienced in our own particular ways. We all have our stories to

tell. So in the next four episodes, I'm doing something slightly different. You'll hear from people who aren't necessarily household names about who they are and the moments that shaped them. You'll hear from them about what it means to live victoriously. It's a different format from usual. We're not discussing three failures, but we are talking about resilience and what it means to live a fulfilled life. We're talking about difficulties that have been overcome, lessons that have been learned, gratitude that has been earned, and the joy of celebrating the everyday. This is How to Fail as you've never heard it before. Ordinary people, extraordinary stories. Four weeks, four different lives. Because we can learn from everyone if we just

listen carefully enough. Today's guest is Ross Barr. listen carefully enough. Today's guest is Ross Barr. Hello, I'm Ross Barr and I'm a five element acupuncturist and fertility specialist. Hello, Ross Barr. You are also one of my dearest friends and it is such a delight to welcome you onto the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Delighted to be here, I think. For anyone who is uninitiated and who hasn't ever had acupuncture, will you describe exactly what five element acupuncture is and what you do exactly? The biggest difference with five element acupuncture, I think, compared to traditional Chinese medicine is that our aim is for you to feel not just physiologically or physically better,

but emotionally better you should really describe feeling like the version of yourself that you prefer after you've seen a five-element acupuncturist a patient once beautifully described it that way to me and I thought that really summed it up nicely I have to say that when I first came to you I was at a very adrenalized point in my life I think where I felt I felt low, but I didn't know why. And that's exactly how I would put it, that every time I'm treated by you, I walk out afterwards, and I feel so much calmer, almost like lightly stoned. And whenever I go and buy a tea or a sandwich afterwards, I notice that people respond to me so much better because I think my

face has lost its tension. So how many people do you see? You're not frowning. Exactly. I'm not frowning all of the time. But how many people do you see who are really tense, but they don't know it about themselves? I think a lot of people don't realise how they're feeling until they're not feeling that way. You know, in that way that we do, we often describe ourselves as feeling fine. And it's only till you feel somewhat different or hopefully when you're leaving that you realise that you feel completely different than when you came in. That's how I feel when I come out of a session. And how did you get into acupuncture in the first place? And where did you grow up, first of all? I grew up, my Scottish mother and father, a big Scottish family, and

I grew up near oxford which was a lovely place to grow up i got into acupuncture because my lovely mum suggested that me and my brothers go and get some acupuncture our father died out of the blue when i was i think i was about 20 now and she recommended that we give it a try because it helped her through so many different situations i didn't know it was good for grief or bereavement or heartbreak or any of those things. But, yes, I think I went two weeks after it happened. Yeah, it was kind of a night and day thing going in and coming out of there.

It's kind of a cliche. You end up doing something you look for. Well, let me put it this way. I had no intention of ever being an acupuncturist until I experienced what it did for me. And it just made such a huge fundamental difference to how I dealt with the whole thing so that was really the start of it I think. I'm so sorry about your dad what was it like for you losing him so suddenly when you were still so young? I think when you look when I look back at it now or when you get further away from it you

look back on it and you i think you view it very differently i mean i think you kind of think about as a kid growing up you think about the worst possible thing that could ever happen to you and i think that was definitely it and it knocks your legs away from you it kind of rips your chest out it takes you to a place you never experienced before but then i was you know looking back in it now if it wasn't for that experience i think actually i was speaking to my little brother about this not that long ago and I think we both I'm my older brother actually we both we all described we're very grateful is another word but I think I don't think I'll be as happy as I am now if it hadn't happened in many respects so as brutal as it was I look back in it

now with not sure if fondly is the right word but with a different viewpoint on it I think. It kind of made you into the person that you are and you said there that it was like night and day when you had your first acupuncture treatment yeah how did it help lift your grief or how did it help you process it? I mean I remember walking there in a complete state of shock I think it was two weeks after it happened. And I met this lovely, lovely man who, I'd never had acupuncture before. I was very sceptical, but I believed in what my mum said to me. And we talked about shock a little bit.

And I remember there's great descriptions about shock in Chinese medicine and it being like, sounds a wee bit hocus pocusy but they anyone who's experienced shock I think probably it resonates with but they say your spirit kind of jumps out of your body temporarily and then it it doesn't quite reside fully back in and you get left this very strange feeling that you're on a kind of weird autopilot the patient described it to me very recently she said she felt like she was standing behind herself observing herself go through life. Wow. And I think that's a great description of shock.

And that's kind of how I went going in, pretty numb, exhausted, just in a lot of pain. And this lovely fellow, who incidentally I spoke to yesterday on the phone for the first time in about 15 years, just out of the blue, he burnt some herbs on me. He did some acupuncture points on me that I now know very well some of them have got a lovely name they're very pertinent to what's going on with you at the time and you know I just remember walking out there and thinking how is it that something so bad has happened but yeah I kind of feel like everything actually be

okay and I felt like myself I felt like that I was able to engage with people in a way that I want to or I don't you know I better have a laugh again for sure so it was a night and day and I would say probably from that moment I kind of fell in love with the medicine and I saw this guy on an off-road you know I still speak to him now obviously. And you mentioned there the notion that it's some people can find it a bit hocus pocus, but actually there's thousands of years behind this medicine. And so it outdates Western medicine by quite some margin. So it's like a scientific thing, isn't it, Ross? I mean, that's 5,000 years of what scholarship, study, trial and error. I mean, it's hugely

scientific in the East. And Western medicine, as wonderful as it is, is maybe, I don't know, maybe 180 years old at best. If you look at it that way, it's 5,000 years worth. It's not hocus pocus. Somebody said to me yesterday, is it one of those medicines where it doesn't work if you don't believe in it?

And it works full stop, providing we as practitioners get our diagnosis right, we get the right points, we do our job properly. It's not like it works for some providing we as practitioners get our diagnosis right we get the right points we do our job properly it's not like it works for some people and not others. You are now one of the most sought after acupuncturists not just in the country but in the world because famously you treated the Duke and Duchess of Sussex who some of us might have heard of and it's now increasingly difficult for your regular clients to get an appointment but I'm not complaining but is your mother quite smug that she was the

one who led you down this path well my mum is an incredible woman which she I remember my little brother sent her the impressed Rossi's and Meghan and Harry and she went ah come and see me when you treat the queen then I'll be impressed keep your feet on the ground I think that's how you're not really allowed to get above yourself within a Scottish family do you know what that's kind of what she's like when you treat royalty I know you treat all your clients as royalty and you're incredibly respectful and would never dream of breaking anyone's confidence but I wanted to ask from your perspective was it intimidating the first time you went to stick needles into Harry and Meghan yeah of But you know, if intimidate is the right word,

I think there's, you know, when you're out of your comfort zone and when you're visiting a different premise and going to somebody's house or a palace, it is out of your comfort zone. But I think that dissipates within a couple of minutes when you really start talking to one another, you know, whether it's you or Meghan and Harry or the Queen or my mum, for instance. I think, yeah, there's a healthy amount of nerves, but when you get into it and when you get down to the crux of what you're trying to do and treat somebody I think that soon goes I think when you do this job as well you're in a privileged position whereby you treat many different people from many different demographics many different backgrounds and you just realize they're all just exactly the same also I get to see the

vulnerabilities of individuals so I get to see their kind of true self and that's not intimidating yeah I mean you've seen me cry probably 85% of the time that we spend together which is not to do with you you could argue that you've probably been one of the most common thing that people come to see you about or rather the most common thing that you end up treating i think the last few weeks has been very unique there's been so much future fantasized scenarios or future fantasized violations and and what ifs that all of us would be performing, that that causes a kind of rise in adrenaline and the endocrine system. And, you know, adrenaline is designed for us to sort of risk assess and evade danger. And we've been running on it for a good while now. We're

only supposed to be running it for sort of short periods of time, but with all the uncertainty, there's so much risk assessment and what-ifs, and that can lead to catastrophizing and feeling completely out of control. Largely what we've been doing in the last few weeks is just trying to calm that down, just trying to help people, just ground them again, and just get them feeling like the more rational version of themselves. And interestingly, in the last couple of, I think when people know what's happening, now that lockdown is announced, and we know where we're at with it, in some ways it actually makes people feel, I'm not sure if better is the right word,

but at least there's no more future fantasising. They now know what's expected or what's happening. So that's calmed down a wee bit. Yeah, it makes total sense. And I feel exactly like that. So just to be clear for anyone listening, we're recording this the second day of the second national lockdown. listening, we're recording this the second day of the second national lockdown. And I have definitely felt better now that there's a clarity to my situation. The limbo and the uncertainty

was really stressful, whereas now I know where I stand and I can adapt my expectations accordingly. I know that you in the past have done work with Cambodian orphans in helping them process trauma. So what was that like, first of all? It was interesting to use the medicine in an environment like that, because I think initially acupuncture was used in those sorts of environments in very poor areas, because it's very cheap, it's very effective, and you get good results very quickly and there was a lot of trauma in the areas that I worked in and I was treating a lot of shock not just children but people who have lived through the Khmer Rouge there's a very particular

type of shock and trauma there and so they're great points for treating that the shock I described earlier when I talked about losing my dad when you feel like you're not quite residing in yourself or you you feel like you're in a weird autopilot. With this medicine, there's a very particular pulse quality and a very particular look in somebody's eyes when somebody's experiencing that or have that. And so a lot of what we were treating was that type of thing, but also there was no healthcare service there. So I remember a lady who was maybe our age,

and she had had a stroke six months before, and there's no healthcare. So she lost a job, she lost her husband, she was living on a mate's sofa and one of her arms was contorted and stuck. So we just worked on that every day to work on getting the mechanics about that. And it was wonderful to use medicine in that scenario because you get to treat people really intensively on a daily basis and you can see from start to finish, you get great results. Whereas I guess here, I'd be more likely to treat somebody weekly but there it was day in day out and it was yeah very satisfying i also have to say what's also interesting as well is you go to different corners of the world and most of what i was doing was through an interpreter

and the first couple of patients that i saw were coming in with, maybe it was all done through an interpreter, but she was basically telling me that her boyfriend had really pissed her off. And it was just the same things that we treat here, just in different parts of the world. I love it. That is so exactly what you were saying earlier about how we are so connected by our vulnerabilities and the as soon as you start treating someone you see how similar we all are whatever part of the world we

come from I love that what percentage of the people that you see are men and what percentage are women I think it's probably about 20 men 80 women I would say and why do you think that is do you think it's that women have more problems or that they're more willing to try something slightly different i think women are more complex physiologically and as a result of that there is when you treat a man and you sort of get them to the state of balance they generally stay there for a wee bit longer but as a woman you know you've got various different stages of your cycle you've got ovulation you've got period there's blood loss and there's much more to tip the scales more often so I think women generally need slightly more for want of a better word maintenance throughout the cycle but throughout life

as well I mean they're just more impressive full stop you know that. We're nuanced and special beings is basically what you're saying. They are they are yeah you soon learn that when you do this job tell us what the five elements themselves are the crux of it is that when you're born everyone's consists of five elements which are fire earth water metal and wood and depending on who you are one of those elements is always slightly out of kilter from the rest and that's where your physiological and psychological kind of emotional attributes come from you know when you think about the amount of water we have in our bodies or the amount of metals we have in our blood it's more from that angle we all have tendencies what this

medicine does is really when you diagnose what element somebody is and their character there will be a certain set of points that would be tailor-made for that individual and there would be a certain set of emotions that they would experience more than other emotions when they're out of balance or imbalanced does that make sense it makes total sense and I also wanted to say to the listeners that some of the things that you've said to me have been so exceptionally insightful about my character so I'm a element. And that means that I require my fires stoking. So sometimes I feel needy for kind of approbation. And I have a very strong sense of fairness. And if something is unjust, that will really, really bother me. And you can tell this stuff from

putting two of your fingers on the pulse in my wrist. I found it incredibly helpful physically but also therapeutically you are a really lovely person to talk to and you are someone who is exceptional at listening have you always been a good listener? Maybe. I think you're going to make a joke there sorry what did you say? Come again? I grew up in a relatively noisy household. I think, yeah, maybe I have. It was maybe through laziness more than anything, to be honest. But how much is being a therapist part of what you do? That's a difficult one to answer because I think what is great,

I can see where people think it or it feels like therapy. And it's, one, you're really listening to somebody and you're really trying to get to the bottom of what's going on with them and the five element system is great for really helping people understand why they might be feeling some emotions more than others or why those emotions that they're experiencing are having a physiological effect on them for instance if somebody is going through a really frustrating time, or they're involved in a battle, or they feel particularly stagnant or stuck in a situation, that has a very profound effect on them physiologically, you know, that can lead to things like painful periods or headaches or neck tension. When you talk that through somebody, and together we both understand

where it's coming from, like you earlier you can just I think it makes a massive difference to understand why we're behaving the way we are in certain situations and also to know that sometimes it's as a result of physiological imbalance and that we are not crazy as we sometimes feel like we are so I think from that point of view it's very therapeutic I just think it's about understanding ourselves a wee bit more this mini series is all about celebrating and marking everyday moments that sometimes we forget about or we're so obsessed with our quest for perfection and the ultimate moment that will make everything make sense is acupuncture a good way of kind of levelling that out and helping you take gratitude in the

everyday? I think a good session will give you a type of internal peace that we strive for and is very difficult to obtain. And so when you've got that internal peace, I think you're much more likely to enjoy what's going on in front of you. There are great points for invigorating the senses that are said to really help you enjoy what's good about your life, whether it's sight, smell, taste. For me personally, I do just feel like the version of myself that I prefer.

And I think that means I'm probably able to be a bit more present in what I'm doing. I'm quicker to laugh and find things funny. Actually, someone described to me brilliantly earlier, she was saying that where she'd been worrying last week about something, after a treatment, she said that she was trying to latch on to those same things and she couldn't find the worry in them anymore she just said that she found that she wasn't getting a shit about the things that she really was obsessing about last week

if that answers your question yeah I think so I think so it does think so. It does answer my question. And are you one of those people who applies your holistic treatment to the rest of your life so that you are constantly downing wheatgrass shots and making Buddha bowls and doing yoga poses at sunset? Are you one of those, Ross? Well, I'm all for balance. I would generally say that I am extremely healthy 80% of the time and then pretty unhealthy the rest of the time. I know it's unhealthy. What I've learned over the years, I think, is that the happiest people that I treat and see or I observe are the ones that get that sort of balance. I've seen a lot of people really strive for health and fitness and they kind of do it to the detriment of peace and that becomes itself a type of imbalance or they become really depleted or really anxious about what

they're eating or obsessed and i think that the happiest folk i observe and for me that the happiest place to be is where you if you're looking after yourself 80 of the time and do the basics right three meals a day don't drink during the week, mostly, don't hammer coffee, eat good food, I always think that that can give you a type of robustness that when you do that other 20%, you do it wholeheartedly with, you know, complete gay abandon and no guilt.

And then I don't think it paints really a bad picture on you then. If you do the 80-20% thing, I think when you're in that 20 you just enjoy it wholeheartedly and it won't affect you in the way that you fear an inability to say no is that something that you see a lot of yes without a doubt without a doubt I think that kind of manifests itself in people finding it very difficult to do less and I've noticed a trend in the last maybe

five to ten years things used to be about well for me in clinic it used to be about how you know people wanting to become healthier so it was possibly getting to do more exercise or eating well or better rather be healthy in that respect and now I think it's about trying to get people just to do less there's so much adrenaline around there's so much connection online that people are so wired i was laughing with somebody about it last week about just trying to go a bit more 1990s on things i was talking to my lovely nephew about this actually i was asking him about him watching a movie that i love and he said he'd seen it and i said what did you think about it he said yeah it's all right you know it's fine and i said did you actually watch it though he said what do you mean and his generation will generally watch something while doing something else.

And, you know, it's like sometimes where you're half-assed watching something on Netflix and then you're messing around on your phone or on your laptop. You're not fully engaged. I remember in the 1990s, one of the great privileges of having a VHS machine is you put it in, you'd sit there and you'd fully invest in it. And as a result of that, you would enjoy a movie for all it was worth. The same with reading a book, but sit down and read a hard copy of a book and do with your phone off in another room and fully embed yourself in that book. That is not easy for a lot of people these days. Certainly

for a lot of people I see. And I've noticed that be a real barometer for when people get better that they'll come back in and they'll say you know just I had a lady said to me she read two books last week and she hadn't read a book in six months and we were both delighted she loves reading and she hadn't been able to buckle down and be on the page long enough because she was so anxious about so many other things so you know we grew up in that era I think the way it's easy to look back with nostalgia but we were able to do one thing at one time and fully embed ourselves in it and that's a lovely thing and I think that's with some patients recently that's what we've been trying to get to that's so interesting because I completely hear what you're saying there was a really big trend for Scandinavian police procedurals a few years ago oh they were so good the killing the bridge borgen all of them and I got really into them and I realized that part of the reason I was enjoying them so much

was precisely that sense of being embedded because I had to read the subtitles so there was no way that I could also be looking at my phone. And it was such a satisfying experience because of it. Well, something happens to you physiologically as well. For me, it's kind of modern day meditation that it's very difficult to go from a place of being completely wired and stressed to be able to do meditation. And I think I remember someone telling me once that meditation was a kind of gift for the healthy. And I think I remember someone telling me once that meditation was a kind of gift for the healthy. And I think it's very true. I think it can be kind of torturous if you're going from a place of trauma or a high stress or to try and meditate.

But if those stepping stones in between, watching a film, reading subtitles, reading a book, if you do those things and you give yourself over to it, and the cinema, of course, then physiologically what you find is all your cortisol and adrenaline falls back into where it came from and it's a really good way to relax I love it so me watching the real housewives is actually a stepping stone to a more enlightened self is that relaxing it's so relaxing it's brilliant I've heard you mention it a few times over the years but I'm never do what I'm going to have a little watch tonight. Is there a particular area there from these housewives? There are various different franchises, Ross, in different cities, but I would recommend the Real Housewives of New York as being the peerless one. But the reason I find it interesting... Just writing a little note. you do that is that this is a really big leap but it sort of goes back to what you were saying at

the very beginning about what connects us being stronger than what divides us because you get these groups of women from such different strata of life and what's fascinating is seeing how they communicate with each other and how friendships are formed and how arguments roll out of all proportion and it sort of teaches you about human nature so that's my very kind of highbrow bid for why people should watch Real Housewives I don't know I'll probably cut this out no bringing it back onto you Ross I was warned before I came to see for the first time by my friend who referred me she said you know I've got to warn you, he is distractingly handsome. So don't be shocked when you see him. And it's become something that is mentioned in every single

newspaper profile that is done of you, with one journalist describing you as a Disney prince. And I almost just want to say that to embarrass you, because I know that you're an incredibly humble, un-ego driven person. But what is is that like like yes how does it feel when you read that by yourself is it embarrassing or nice yes I mean I don't want to be precious about it it'd be nice to be talked about for the medicine I mean it's not one of the worst problems to have is it so I'm describing you like that I've been described as worse by people that really know me and didn't one of your friends constantly send you pictures of Disney princes oh Jesus it's just the abuse I get

journalists know this as well it's the abuse you get from your inner circle and I would be yeah well if someone is listening to this now and they've never had acupuncture before and they're scared of needles what would you say to them what would i say we use very few it's not how it's always depicted on the lines of sex in the city and like the tv programs we maybe use anywhere from sort of four to ten they're very fine delicate little things they're very elegant you will feel it i wouldn't say it hurt it doesn't hurt no it resonates so there's a little ache but then you know something's happening as well so you should feel it but i would say the benefits far outweigh the fear of it and finally ross you mentioned earlier that every point has a name that can be really poetic and i know i have my favorite point names but what's your favourite point name? Some of them I adore because you see

what they do for folk and the difference it makes for people. There's one in particular I love that's called Spirit Burial Ground and there's another one called Spirit Storehouse and they're used in conjunction when somebody is really struggling or they're on the floor and they're what we call resurrection points and you would often warm herbs on these points and then you would use needles on them and they're really great for when somebody's really hit rock bottom or they don't know whether they've got anything left in them to keep going and i've just seen them work wonders on people and sort of bring them back into themselves and just give them a wee bit more the spirit storehouse is lovely because the chinese the

story right it depicts someone going out to a storehouse at the spirit storehouse is lovely because the chinese the story right it depicts someone going out to a storehouse at the end of their garden just to get extra grain for when they really need it and and that's what it does for folk whereabouts is it on the body if i tell you this you're going to start self-administering no it's kind of on the i know what you're like i. I just get my school compass out. It's around the heart area. I'll say that. Okay. The chest.

Okay. My favourite one's called something like the Whispering Palace. Yes. That's a lovely heart point. It works wonders on you. Is that actually what it's called? Have I remembered that right? A lot of the points have about two or three different names.

It depends on the translation, but that's near enough. Yeah. Also, there's probably acupuncture students listening to this going, it's not called that at all. I've just got it wrong. Well, it doesn't matter if you've got it wrong, because failure is what makes us human. And that's what we're all about here.

And I cannot thank you enough for agreeing to be interviewed by me I know it's awkward being asked questions by a friend but you have been an absolute wonder and you are a really fantastic acupuncturist and human being thank you so so much for coming on my podcast thank you I'm delighted to be here thank you Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.