How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - AJ Odudu - ‘Living to tell the tale is the joyful thing’

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Big Brother host, Strictly Come Dancing finalist and the woman who, by her own admission, ‘puts black into Blackburn’, AJ Odudu is a force to be reckoned with. Growing up in Lancashire, no one ever knew how to pronounce her name and she was questioned constantly on why she was different. But as an adult, she has turned these early experiences into inner strength - resilience that has served her well throughout personal and professional failures. Now she’s best known for being the host of the recently rebooted Big Brother but a decade earlier, she lost her presenting job a decade earlier on Big Brother’s Bit On The Side and hit rock bottom. She joins me to explain how she built her life back, how her past relationships continue to shape (and sometimes haunt) her, how she is learning to say no and - the first time I’ve ever discussed this on the pod - her failure to stop biting her nails. What. A. Woman. And as always, I’d LOVE to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I will choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly Studio Engineer: Gulli Lawrence-Tickle Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. In my podcast, we look at and celebrate our unique individual failures, because ultimately, they're the stepping stones to success. Every week, I invite a guest to look at their failures and what has come afterwards that might have helped them grow and succeed. And please do join me where I continue my conversation with AJ Odudu on my subscriber series, Failing With Friends.

Every week, I'll be looking at your failures or questions with my fabulous guest. This week, AJ and I go through failures from friendship breakdowns to fashion faux pas. Can't wait for you to join us. My guest today is a woman who is rapidly becoming one of the most familiar faces on our television screens. Whether it's executing a near-perfect Charleston on Strictly Come Dancing, she made it to the final three in 2021 before tearing a ligament the day before the final, or carrying her faltering teammate's backpack up a mountain on SAS Who Dares Wins, teammates' backpack up a mountain on SAS Who Dares Wins, the one thing that always comes across clearly is Adu Du's extraordinary drive and determination. But she is best known for being

the new host of Big Brother. It was a particularly sweet return to the show after she lost her presenting job a decade earlier on Big Brother's bit on the side. Again, she dusted herself off and came back stronger. This grit arguably has its roots in her upbringing. Adu Du grew up in Blackburn, Lancashire, one of eight children raised by Nigerian parents whose marriage was arranged. Her mother was a cleaner, her dad a joiner, and they were, she recalled later, the only black people for miles. We put the black in Blackburn, she joked. A graduate of Keele University who started out in local radio, she was recently awarded an honorary fellowship at the University of Central Lancashire. It's extremely tough to get rejected or told you can't do something for whatever reason

but you have to persevere and remain confident in yourself a doo-doo has said success is not a sprint it's a struggle and rejection is inevitable but it's worth it in the end aj welcome to how to fail thank you you don't really move yeah that was you that did all of that i'm like oh my word what's wrong with me no what's right with you because i really wanted to pay tribute to your resilience and your determination because it is something that has struck me again and again watching your career from afar. That Celebrity SAS moment, I watched it again in preparation for this interview. Basically what happened is you took Sam Thompson's backpack and your own and walked up this massive mountain carrying 45 kilograms on

your back and front and you just pushed on through. And I know we're getting onto that because it relates to one of your failures, but I wanted to ask you whether you think resilience is something you can learn. Is I've learned that having received so much rejection, so many knockbacks, so much pain, and actually just the knowledge that I can always rebuild and come back stronger builds a sense of confidence and a sense of resilience that will hopefully remain unshakable. The premise of this podcast is obviously how we fail actually teaches us so much about what to do next. And one of the things I realised coming towards the end of my 30s was it had been such an intense decade and there'd been many failures along the way and many heartbreaks and many patches of feeling like I was the worst person in the way and many heartbreaks and many patches

of feeling like I was the worst person in the world and where would I go next but looking back I realised I'd survived each one and that gave me strength and it sounds like you're saying exactly the same thing yeah exactly I always say oh my gosh that was awful it was so stressful it was pants but we live to tell the tale and living to tell the tale is the joyful thing that's the fun side that shows that you've walked towards that light at the end of the dark tunnel and and you've somehow found some sort of solace one of my good friends once said to me the best revenge is living well how did it feel presenting big brother? Presenting Big Brother on ITV and ITV2, the launch, the reboot just felt one of the proudest moments of my life, genuinely, because

I know how I felt back in 2013 when I didn't get asked to come back for the next series I know how rock bottom I was the heavy weight that I felt every single day I know how hard it was yeah so to come back and smash it and actually have fun and do it alongside my friend and the most amazing team and I just was really proud of myself I'm really proud of you and I've only just met you properly and I think part of the reason is that you there's an honesty to you that is so moving and accessible like you connect with people beyond the screen because you're really honest about who you are and I love the fact that you claimed your power and were honest about how that rejection felt you've spoken about it in the past. And when you lost that job or when

you weren't asked back, there was no feedback given. So that must have been really difficult because you didn't know. Was that uncertainty hard to handle? I feel like the industry actually does still to this day have a tendency to do that. You know, people will go for auditions, you'll have a meeting, you'll hear nothing back. You don't know why you've got this radio silence. One minute everything is good, the next minute it's not. It's very uncertain and it's very confusing. And especially for someone like me who likes honesty, I've grown up with the most brutally honest family. Yeah. And you went back home then, didn't you? You slept on your dad's sofa, you worked in a call centre, and then ultimately you retrained as a personal trainer and nutritionist. Again, props to you for working your way through that.

for working your way through that. And I mentioned in the introduction that my perception is that so much of that grit and that work ethic comes from your childhood. Do you think that's fair? 100%. And being like, oh, I've been on TV now. Surely I can't go back to the call centre. And my mum's saying no one should ever feel embarrassed to earn an honest living.

No matter what the job is, you could be emptying bins. Like it doesn't matter. You're providing, like you're trying to do something. And there's no shame in that. One minute we was on live television and the next minute we're back in the call centre. We're hustling away. We're trying to rebuild our confidence in a completely different field. And that's when I, yeah, went into personal training. What were you selling at the call centre?

I was selling, do you know, Rich, the consumer magazine? I was upselling Rich magazine. And you could get three magazines. And if you ordered Rich gardening as well you would also get some free tomato just for three pounds as opposed to the one i mean it was an absolute bargain but i'd always have to read out this legal verbatim i was terrible at it and most people in the call center would just like rush through it but i would slowly read it and make sure everybody fully understood that if they forgot to unsubscribe it would jump from three pounds to 12.99 each month which for some people is so expensive I was like one minute you think that you've got a three quid bargain next minute you're being absolutely shafted I

just wanted everyone to be clear I often convince people oh gosh if you're not going to remember to cancel it, and you can't afford it, don't do it. It's that honesty. It's that honesty coming through again, making you a bad call centre employee. I mentioned in the introduction that idea that you put the black into blackburn, which is such a great one-liner you came up with. But what was that like, really?

What was school like for you? It was interesting because actually, honestly, I always really enjoyed school like thoroughly. However, from teachers, from other pupils as well, like you are noticeably different from the get go. I remember in nursery, for example, my mum coming into nursery nursery teaching the nursery teacher how to pronounce my name and she spelt it out phonetically she's like it's on a tagerol and then next thing I know my mum walks out and I'm called AJ and I was like what like they they was like oh it's just too hard and then on the playground it's like why is your hair like, why is your hair like that? Why is your skin like that? The questions, the curiosity, it was always like I stood out the most. And even my voice, you know, my accent's always been this thing throughout my career, even now. But at school, I had this deeper

voice, this more distinctive voice from such an early age. I had this stammer in nursery. It was just constantly like, oh my gosh, this is quite tricky. And Blackburn, which lacks in its diversity, I was born into a very white area and the church that I went to was white, you know, an all white congregation. The school that I went to was all white. I only really saw myself or my younger sister. We were the only ones who looked like us. And yeah, that was, that was really tough at times. Do you think, I didn't know that about AJ, about that, that being the reason that that name came about. Yeah. But I, I really admire the way that you the reason that that name came about yeah but I I really admire the way that you've made that your thing yeah do you think you've sort of your way of dealing with that was okay

well I'm really going to embrace what you think makes me different and I'm going to show you that this is a fabulous way to be yeah I don't think I really gave it much thought at the time, to be honest. I was just called AJ. That's what you're called. That was that. But I do remember when I got to year five, we moved house, and so I changed school.

And I remember being quite excited about that because I thought, oh, it's a good chance to rebrand. No one in this school knows me I'm a little bit older now I can stand up for myself and I will insist that everyone calls me age row which they did for year five year six everyone at that school called me age row but then when I went to secondary school and the feeder schools all go to the secondary school so people from my first school St Anne's would meet people from my second school St Albans and then say oh you went to that school oh so you must know AJ you must know AJ do do and they're like oh no I don't know anyone called AJ I know

I know an AJ well but I don't know an AJ and they're like there's literally one black girl in Blackburn so it must be we must be talking about the same person and then everyone who had called me age well started saying oh it's so much easier to call your agent so we're just going to do that and I was like oh gosh I'm back to square one but honestly I remember making it I do remember when I made it my thing almost was when I was in London. When I went to a job interview, they thought it was going to be a male person walking in. And they saw this female tottering through the door. And I kind of loved it. I was like, oh, you thought you was going to get one thing.

You've got another. I liked the element of surprise. And so actually I was like, yeah, I'm here for it. Defying expectations. I love it. And so actually, I was like, yeah, I'm here for it. Defying expectations. I love it.

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your first failure is your inability to say no explain to us where that stems from do you think I mean honestly I don't know I just feel like I'm a resilient person. I'm a trier. I never want to give up. It's the sense of, if I give up, if I didn't try my absolute, absolute hardest, then I failed. I've not put my best foot forward. And that is the failure that I won't be able to deal with. I can deal with coming second or last even or whatever, but only with the knowledge that I've given it absolutely everything. So it's not about people pleasing or anything like that, but it's about trying. And I will not say no to the most extreme, ridiculous thing. And where I feel that that has become a bit of a failure for me is my

lack of ability to identify when I'm at my limit it used to be something that was almost celebrated you know like I'm the person who can work out until I throw up so it's just a bit funny at the time but actually you know when you are climbing a mountain and you're like I'm feeling person who can work out until I throw up. So it's just a bit funny at the time. But actually, you know, when you are climbing a mountain and you're like, I'm feeling a bit faint, but I'm just going to get to the top. And then you collapse at the top of the mountain. Or when you are dancing so hard that you snap a ligament, you do go, oh my gosh, I could really hurt myself here if I don't figure this out. It's good to try hard, I think still.

But I also think when I don't understand my limits, that's where it can get a bit dangerous sometimes. And that's what I'm still trying to figure out. So those two examples that you cite are things that have actually happened to you. So the first one is the celebrity SAS Who Dares Wins, where, as I mentioned earlier, you took your backpack and

Sam Thompson's all the way up a mountain and you didn't collapse at the top of the mountain you came all the way back down then you did some cold water swimming then you just got to the stage where you're like you needed to be dragged out of the canal wherever you were swimming and it's actually quite a terrifying thing to watch we watch you your eyes roll back in your head and you collapse and you faint. What was that like to go through? Because for the rest of us, it's just like a reality TV program. But for you, that's like very intense. It's so interesting as well, because there's a whole team of people who are like, just stop. Like just, you're allowed to stop it's fine and I'm like no no I'm fine you know in my mind I will always

got this really high pain threshold I can really endure some tough thing until I'm not and then I go I've actually yeah maybe uh maybe I wasn't fine and gosh that was a bit touching girl do you know what I mean yeah I do and I want to get back to that but then i just want to talk to you about strictly come dancing so the day before the final you've made it to the final three you're scoring amazingly across the board and you tear a ligament in your ankle that must have been so upsetting it was yeah so distressing because actually it was a couple of days before the the final but actually it was undiagnosed as like this ligament too so I just knew that I'd hurt myself I knew that like I'd had this acute pain that literally made me projectile vomit on the spot that's how sharp the pain was I couldn't put an ounce of weight on my tall. I literally could not stand up. But yet,

I was, every single waking day, I was like, well, it's fine. I still went to rehearsals. I still watched my dance partner dance with another professional dancer. I was like, it's fine. I'm going to like learn the routine. I'm going to like watch the steps and I am going to be ready for the final. I'm going to figure it out. I am going to be injected with all of the steroids. I was having fluid drained out of my foot. I was having scans. I was having ultrasounds on my foot. I was elevating my foot and having ice compressions whilst also watching my dance steps and doing television interviews and I was doing all of those things hobbling around on a crutch going no I don't need anything I'm gonna be fine and then I'm now in a moon boot and then speaking to the team but strictly saying do you think we

could do an iconic dance where I am in a moon boot like I literally was begging what do you think you were trying to prove because I'm guessing looking back this was before you got the big brother gig yeah so do you think maybe you were still trying to prove something to someone to yourself like I can do this I am worthy of your attention and your recognition? Maybe. I don't know where it comes from, honestly, but I still, to this day, I'm always fighting to like pull it back. I'm like, okay, you've got to calm down. It's so interesting, this failure, because on the one level, you're clearly almost a professional athlete. Like you go into beast mode and you can push your body to extremes that most of us couldn't and on the other side there's like actually you're worth looking

after it's almost like you struggle to think that you AJ are worth love and care and attention from yourself and then there's a whole other aspect which is like drive and being grateful for what you have and therefore wanting to take it to that level that you know you can achieve and it's a fascinating mix but do you think you've got better at knowing when to stop at like being kinder to yourself I suppose that's what I'm getting at have you got better at being kinder to yourself yeah definitely I mean I still struggle but I definitely do say no to things now I'm happier to receive help more and I'm definitely more able to identify when things are a little bit too much but you know going through physio really taught me that you have to do everything at slug space you have to really slow down you can't just run you can't just jump you have to do everything at slug space you have to really slow down you can't just

run you can't just jump you have to move one big you know one toe at a time humbling I had no idea it was that serious final question on this failure do you think you've had to work harder to get where you are than a lot of your peers yes I used to be really embarrassed or actually I used to feel very scared to say that I really do feel like I have to prove myself in a way that my counterparts just don't and I also feel like I may be one of the reasons why I do have this drive and determination and this ability to like push all the time is because I just feel like I'm not allowed to make mistakes in the way that others are and I have to be the ready-made package I have to look good sound good I need to be a game or the opportunity is just not going to be there and that is a tough pill to swallow but

it's my pill and I've swallowed it so it is what it is you need to bring your AJ game that's what I say and now my Slay J game, my new nickname. Slay J, that's so genius. Oh my gosh, when I saw that in the crowd, I was like, why is no one else on this? This is great. I do think that's something I'm very aware of doing this podcast as someone who is a privileged white woman. There are people who are given multiple opportunities to fail and there are others who are not. And we only have to look at some might say the political class in this country to see the kind of people who get multiple

opportunities to fail upwards so I think you have every right to say what you've just said and thank you for speaking truthfully about it thank you your second failure, I'm so glad you've chosen this. I can relate so much. It's about old exes or relationships haunting you for years. Honestly. They're so difficult to get over. Again, in hindsight, I just look back and think, what a waste of time. Like so much time and energy wasted on people who have betrayed me not giving me the

love that I now feel that I deserve I'm wasting my attention and energy and tears how many important romantic relationships have you had I'd say three yeah yeah And I know I'm going to sound like such a creep, but because I saw you on First Dates Hotel and there's actually this very moving exchange that you have with your date over how you were cheated on and not only cheated on, but you walked in and found your now ex in the act and that must be a very traumatic thing to go through so I feel intrusive asking you about this do you mind talking about it no no what was that like for you discovering you were being cheated on that was so surreal on On that day, I was actually at my brother's and I'd had the best time, but I was also really excited to go back and see my boyfriend. We'd made all these plans and I was so excited. He'd not answered his phone, which I thought was unusual, but it's fine. Like we're

together a lot and I've got the keys to his place, it's all good and so to walk in on that I was stunned it was like this person had you know made out that you know they love me they see their future with me and and it was completely reciprocated you know we were in my mind building uh towards a positive future together. And, you know, the most nice, genuine person and fun to be around. And just someone that I just wouldn't ever expect to behave in that way. Seeing that was crazy. And then my reaction was quite stoic. I wasn't hysterical, I didn't burst into tears or anything

like that. I just felt in that moment I need to gather all the information that I can and I don't want it from him, I want it from her actually because weirdly in that moment I trusted her more than I trusted him and I'd never seen her before. So I asked her to put her clothes back on and follow me outside and answer all of my questions. How long had this been going on and whatever. And then as soon as that happened, I watched her leave. And then I packed all my stuff and then got a taxi and left. I literally was like, I not I'm not gonna cry

in front of this person this person isn't worth my tears you know I don't want to throw a girl out of the window and I don't want to hit him or cry in front of him I'm not gonna show him that side of me however I proceeded to have years of tears and years of trauma away from him. It was really weird. I'm so sorry. That is a horrendous thing to go through. And I think it probably makes you question everything, doesn't it? It must make you question your entire judgment.

Like I've had experiences in past relationships where someone has broken up with me out of the blue. And that's been a complete head fuck, technical term, where I'm like, well, I don't trust my own judgment or opinions of the world anymore. Exactly. That's exactly what it felt like. I immediately took all the blame.

It's like that person's done a really horrible thing. Yet I was left questioning, like, what have I missed? Like, where have I gone wrong? How have I been so incorrect about this person? It was all on me, essentially. And it was just so annoying, really, you know, now that I've come out of that and thinking, I can't believe I picked myself up about that, like so much. And I even took him back at one point and thought, again, a massive regret. But again, now I'm like, no, AJ, you've been really optimistic. You've really, you know, I've always been taught to forgive and give people second chances and, you know, be empathetic and all of that jazz. I've always been taught all of those things. So again, I'm trying not to beat myself up about

that too much, but I also can't help but think, this person did the right thing to you. And then you took him back a few months later, just because he said, sorry sorry and then actually it was never going to work because that is beyond it's a it's a betrayal beyond repair the thing that's coming across loud and clear to me is that you're such a high performer in every aspect of your life and if you have a perfectionist trend towards that high performance which I do not athletically like you do, but like in other ways. I think I, in past relationships, put pressure on myself to be perfect in order to ensure that the other person would have no complaints and therefore would never leave. And obviously that never worked for me because I wasn't being real. But when they do

leave, you're like, but I was trying so hard. I thought I was so nice. I was doing everything that I thought they wanted me to do. And then ultimately, I just came to the conclusion, well, they didn't want that. They wanted something different. And my survival mechanism was to think, well, more for them then. It's fine. And now I feel very lucky that I'm in a really healthy relationship and I can show up as myself but do you relate to to that aspect of it like sort of trying to be perfect and then someone seeming to find that wanting yes or no I definitely think I've done that like in the past but actually to be totally honest in my significant relationships where I felt betrayed I've actually felt the most

myself actually so I'm like oh wow this relationship's going really well I'm being completely myself he's being completely himself this is great and then when it all goes wrong I'm like oh no how's this happened and what could I have done to avoid that when it comes to cheating and stuff like that, sometimes I just think, why didn't you just say that you were unhappy and then just go or whatever? Why did it have to be done in this way?

The relationship you're talking about, was this 10 years ago? It was around the same time as you also lost the Channel 5 Big Brother's little bit on the side gig. Exactly. So horrendous time in your life, I imagine. Horrendous time. But what would

they say when you said why did you cheat and why weren't you just honest I just I'm asking this because I know so many listeners will be finding this incredibly helpful because they would have gone through something similar and they will be thinking if even AJ one of the most beautiful talented women that any of us know it goes through this then we can learn from that thank you his response is something like oh it just didn't even mean anything it just was well then why do it like when you've got something so meaningful yeah I don't I just don't understand and I still don't understand but actually I'm not I don't care to understand now but I guess my biggest regret and that's why I put it as my failure is that it just takes so long to come to that resolution it just

takes so long to stop blaming yourself and nitpicking yourself and to and to also let someone else in you know how many blessings have I blocked because I've just been so focused on the past instead of looking forward and, you know, embracing all of the other beautiful, amazing people who've come into my life. But I've actually pushed them away because I can't move forward until I've let go of the past. That is just how I am. Well, maybe you're doing physio for your romantic relationships, right? Now that's the phase that you're in and you'll come back stronger than am. Well, maybe you're doing physio for your romantic relationships, right? Now that's the phase that you're in and you'll come back stronger than ever. What actually, what phase are you in? Are you happily single, hoping for a relationship? Do you know what? I feel like the

more I've been in this industry, the more I've just been like, it's so amazing to keep pockets of myself to myself. And I guess I've been open about my romantic relationships and romantic failures and my romantic vulnerabilities. I've been really open about them in the past, but I don't care to be as much now. But I definitely am in a really happy place. I'm really, really content in that aspect of my life. That is such an elegant answer. Final question on this. What has your parents' marriage taught you about romantic relationships?

I mentioned in the introduction it was an arranged marriage, clearly an incredibly successful and happy one with eight kids. What do you think that's taught you? It's just not all rosy. It's just not. You know know I've seen my parents go through so much and obviously I won't speak on their relationship too much because it's their relationship but I feel like we've all grown up with this like you know you know idea that two people fall in love and they just walk hand in hand into the sunset forever and ever and it just doesn't work out like that sometimes Sometimes they absolutely hate each other. Sometimes they love each other.

You know, I definitely feel like they are two people who can't live with each other, can't live without each other. And I personally think it's a really beautiful thing. But it's taught me that, you know, you work hard at something and there will be love. And they do love each other and respect each other in a way that they have really fought for. Mm. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?

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So Megan, do you want to trade AOT hot takes? We're here. Listen every Friday, wherever you get your podcast and watch full episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Your final failure is biting your nails oh mate it's so annoying have you always bitten your nails yeah for as long as i can remember i have my mum said that i didn't really start to bite my nails until after I lost my baby bottle, which I had until quite an old age. So I'd come back from school, actually. I think I had it until

the end of nursery or like reception. So it's like five years old. I had my baby bottle until that age. My mum always said that I was that kid who had all of the things. I sucked my thumb. I needed the teddy. I needed a comfort blanket. Everything was managed to be shaken with great struggle eventually. But the nail biting is the one that has remained with me all of my life. And it's annoying. I've tried and tried and tried again. And, you know, I even saw a therapist about it one time. I was like, am I stressed out? Is this an anxious trait? Like, what is it? But I just think it's a comforting thing. Yeah, because there is that idea, that sort of automatic assumption that it must be because you're anxious or worried, but you don't feel that. No, I really don't. So talk me through it because I don't bite my nails but I do

have a childhood habit where I used to have this is so embarrassing a little ball of cotton wool that I would stroke my face with and I would stroke my face with it whilst sucking my own tongue which clearly is like a similar thing like there was some degree of comfort and it started as a very young child and although I no longer have the cotton wool I mean but I had it for years like way beyond five by the way until I was about 11 but I sometimes do it with clothes oh still with like yeah and it's sort of soothing and relaxing so is that the equivalent of biting your nails you just will do it when you're watching tv or something yeah honestly it's so subconscious I don't even really notice that I'm doing it but I do I have tried because I also do like having

nice well-kept hands I think it's very important I think it's good manners to have like clean nice nails and hands when you shake someone's hand or when you greet someone and all of that jazz. So I can assure you that I've not had my fingers in my mouth right now. And what have you done to try and stop it? So the therapy, was that sort of talking therapy or hypnotherapy? It was a talking therapy, which I thought was hypnotherapy, but it just felt like therapy. I was very confused. I was like, what?

But I'd been recommended this woman who's helped um a few of my friends stop smoking so I thought well do you know what if she can help people stop smoking she can definitely cure me from biting my nails and yeah no she flops she fails I was like maybe this is her failure not mine yes get her in next week. So yeah, I've tried that. I've tried nail bite. Yeah. I've tried acrylic and gel nails on. They're really hard and really tough to get through,

but I will know them down. It's so weird. I've tried putting plasters on the ends of my fingers, you know, peculiar looking, but I've tried it all and it's just not working so I don't know maybe it should be my new year's resolution again I think what I really love about your failures is that you have been so authentic and honest with them you've been genuinely vulnerable and they're not like humble brags in the sense that some people choose failures that paint them in quite

a good light ultimately like these are things that you're genuinely working on and that have genuinely been hard to go through and I really respect you for that and I'm very grateful thank you for respecting the format in this way I suppose I'd like to draw this to an end I'm very aware that many listeners will be going through some form of heartbreak or some form of betrayal. And I know that they find it very helpful to listen to someone's advice on that who might have been through it. So I wonder if I could ask you to speak directly to those people. What advice would you give them if they are currently struggling with heartbreak? Try and focus on all of the things that do bring you joy, even if it's

for a little bit. Personally, I found, you know, hanging out with my friend Chris was really, really helpful. Going to my mum's in Blackburn for a week was really helpful. And it doesn't, it doesn't push it out of your mind all the time. But even if you just give yourself, give your mind a rest from feeling so sad, just for a little bit, you will find that each day, you know, that five minutes of happiness turns into 10 minutes of happiness, turns into an hour, turns into two hours. And before you know it, you'll find your feet again. For me, it's felt like a grief, you know, like losing a romantic relationship has felt like, wait a minute, I was with this person every day. They were the first person that I said all of my highs and lows of the days to, and I've lost my best friend. Like,

that's what I've lost. And I think to anyone out here listening to that just know that it's all right to feel really sad and really low because it's really natural to feel really sad and really low when you when you lose your best mate but you will find another mate and you will find yourself first and looking back on the ends of those relationships, are you grateful that they ended now? 100%. They weren't the right people for me, you know, and I can look back on that now with confidence, you know, back in the day I used to think, oh my gosh, we could bump into each other and then, you know, start again. And now I'm like, no, that was not going to end well. I'm not going to beat

myself up and nor should anybody else listening actually. Don't beat yourself up about spending all of these years, all of your love and all of your time with someone who ultimately betrayed you because actually you did share good times together. It't all a waste take the good times leave the bad times in the past and keep it moving yes find yourself first I want that on a t-shirt AJ I do do thank you so much for coming on how to fail keep slay jaying I cannot wait to see what you do next this has been a total pleasure thank you so much for having me. I'll slay J-O-A. I continue my conversation with AJ Odudu on my subscriber series, Failing With Friends. He said, where do you see yourself in five years? And I reflex just said, not here.

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