How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Amy Jackson Westwick - I Was A Magnet For Narcissists

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

Amy Jackson Westwick is a major Bollywood film star with some 14 million followers on social media. Yet she grew up in a working class family in Liverpool. So how did a teenager from Merseyside become one of the most recognisable British actors working in Bollywood? Today on How To Fail, she tells us her story. We discuss growing up too fast, how she broke free from a cycle of narcissistic relationships and how she now manages a blended family (Amy has two sons - one with her husband, the actor Ed Westwick, and one from a previous partner). Plus: what she learned from her years in Bollywood and why she’s ’a petty cow’. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:13 Chasing Security Not Fame 04:08 Finding Yourself Again 06:35 Growing Up Too Fast 06:50 Liverpool Childhood Roots 11:27 Pageants to Bollywood Break 24:04 Perfect Family Fantasy 25:21 Romanticising Love 26:40 Back To Back Relationships 27:30 People Pleasing Patterns 29:06 Narcissists And Boundaries 31:53 Leaving And Healing 36:39 Blended Family Reality 39:52 Step Parenting Rules 47:05 Listening To Yourself 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: Security comes in so many different forms - and for me it's peace of mind. If it doesn't feel right, then it's not right... you've got to actually know how you're feeling and not be afraid to voice it. [On narcissistic relationships]: I confused controlling behavior for somebody who was loving and caring, and in actual fact it was the complete opposite. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Amy’s podcast ‘What’s the Tea Amy?’ is out now The Testaments, a new Hulu original series, streaming April 8 exclusively on Disney+ Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Lily Allen - on early fame, mistakes, relationships and motherhood: swap.fm/l/8Otj3tpmbH5SF4xjVHTJ Gillian Anderson - on body image, rebellion and refusing to fit in with other people’s expectations: swap.fm/l/7NyZMzkfVOpGyDtlB6k0 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Amy answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship. And I think that blindsided me a lot. Because I do empathize with my younger self, but if I could just get hold of her and say, come on, you've got this. Where are your boundaries? I didn't know what that word actually meant. When I look back now, I go, oh, Amy, the red flags were on fire.

What were you doing? Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we firmly believe that all failure is data acquisition. Before we get into today's conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe. It really, really helps us and it helps other people find us. And that will also make sure that you never miss a single episode. I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers. Cheers. I've always been a glass half-full kind of guy.

And now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges. Their stories are funny and quite candid. So I hope you'll join me each week. And who knows, you might just come away with your own glass-athful. Search Glass Half-Full with Craig Nelson from today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down.

down top model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s. You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And of course, we discuss people who have gotten in into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims.

She was defrauding the elderly, and her tagline was the only thing I'm guilty of is being Sha Amazing. Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous. Amy Jackson Westwick is 34, but seems already to have lived several lifetimes. Born in the Isle of Man, raised in Liverpool, she started modelling age 14 and ended up winning Miss Teen World in 2009. The Bollywood director ALVJ spotted her and asked her to audition for the lead role in his new period drama. Despite having had no previous acting experience, Jackson Westwick got the role.

She celebrated her 17th birthday on set in India and moved their full-time age 19. Over 14 years, she made a major name for herself in Bollywood, winning critical acclaim and awards and racking up over 20 credits. Having also starred in the CW Supergirl in 2017, she is recognised as one of the UK's most successful crossover actresses from Western to Indian cinema. Alongside her film work, Jackson Westwick is a patron for charities such as the Snehaar Saga Orphanage for Girls, Peter and Elephant Factor. She was honoured with the UN's International Day of the Girl Child Award in 2018. And she's just launched a podcast. What's the Tea, Amy, full of frank, honest conversations and interviews, including one with her husband, the actor Ed Westwick, with whom she shares a one-year-old baby, Oscar, and her son, Andreas, from a previous relationship.

With some 14 million followers across social media, Jackson Westwick is an example. of global fame. And yet, as she said recently, her motivation was never celebrity for its own sake. As she put it, you're not chasing fame. You're chasing security. Amy, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. That was lovely. I need that pep talk in the mornings. Can I voice note you saying this to me? 100%. Our voice note it's you. You can have it as a ringtone. Thank you very much. I like that. It's always so interesting when guests have that reaction and it's often women who have that reaction because all I'm doing is stating a series of facts and that's your life and it's an incredible one Amy it really really is

thank you I wanted to ask you before we get into that about that quote chasing security rather than fame how do you feel now do you feel secure for the first time in my life I do I actually feel very secure. I think it's been a long time coming and we'll get into the failures. But I think those failures at that time, you almost think that you've ruined your life. And it's only with time and time is a blessing that you realize, oh gosh, this is how it was supposed to be. But I think security comes in, it comes in so many different forms. And for me, it's peace of mind. Elizabeth, if you don't have peace of mind, that security, I mean, it goes. out of the window. So I finally feel

peaceful. Not all the time. I've got two boys. But that security comes hand in hand with a bit of peace. Do you find that with your podcast you're able to just be yourself? So true. And it's so funny because when I started it, people didn't even know

I had this accent. Because obviously you're playing different roles and you're playing different characters and you're performing to a certain beauty standard for that kind of world in the film industry in particular. So having a cup of tea in a chat. I mean, as we mentioned just off camera, it's scouse blood.

We do that very well, right? And it's quite liberating and it's nice to actually be myself for once. And I wonder as well if it's hard in some way when you have had such a kind of high profile existence from a teenager on the stages of Bollywood. Was it ever difficult to remain yourself? It's a very good question. And I actually think back to when I started. And I didn't know what I was doing, Elizabeth. I was 16 and I went over to India.

It was kind of catapulted into it. And truthfully, I did not know what to do. So I did put on this facade. And it would be this kind of overly confident. But on the inside, I was like, oh, my God, am I doing this right? Am I saying this right? am I, you know, showing up the way I'm supposed to show up? It was all new to me. So I think for many years, even off screen, there was a bit of performance going on. There really was

and really just winging it and hoping for the best. And actually, I kind of, we'll get into it, but you lose yourself along the way because you actually don't know who you are, what you want, where you're supposed to go in life, you're kind of getting redirected by different. different people and you should do this. This is a really good look and take this role because this will do well if you perform next to this person. So there were a lot of outside, there's outside noise and that gets loud and then everything else gets quiet within you. And finally, as a 34 year old woman, I finally feel like I'm at that place in time and in life where I feel like actually I'm really happy being me. I'm really happy, you know, embracing who I am

and actually not trying to hide it. Love that. Okay, let's get into it. Go on. I said before we started, these failures are so, they're so excellent. And the first one is growing up too fast. So I'd love you to take me back to your childhood. What was it like your family growing up in Liverpool

when you were, let's say, eight or nine? So I was born in the element, like you mentioned, moved over to Liverpool at the age of two. We moved to Norris Green, which is North Liverpool, and lived with my grandma. Parents separated very early. And truthfully, the memories I have of mum and dad together, very dysfunctional, lots of arguments. But individually, as parents to me, they were bloody fantastic, which was very good. They were able to come together and, you know, be a partnership in that way.

But I was just a regular Liverpool girl. I loved my horses. I loved my dogs. My mom worked for the Riding for Disabled Association. So every weekend I would be there. And I think that was a really good introduction to kind of growing up and independence and looking after something that wasn't just yourself. Incredible mom.

But also she had problems with different situations. very, very close to my grandma. And unfortunately when she passed, that kind of had a knock on effect on the whole family. I'm so sorry. Yeah, so we had to kind of navigate that. And obviously, she won't mind me saying, but obviously going through a certain time in her life,

teenagers going through a certain time in my life, we would clash and there would be hormones running riots. So it was chaotic. It really was. But she always remained my best friend. She always remained my anchor. But there was a certain point in time where I was like, okay, I need a break from this. I need to escape.

And I think that's what made me want to rush my childhood and rush into independence and freedom. And, you know, as a child, you think adulthood is bigger and better than everything and you can't wait to get there. It's independence. It's freedom. It's earning your own money. You know, we came from a very working class background. But I think I really want to. I wanted to earn my own money.

I wanted to go into the world and do more. So I think I wanted to rush that. Little did I know, though, that, you know, adulthood is mainly responsibilities and a lot of admin. That's so funny. Other than being a globally renowned Bollywood star and a legendary beauty, I feel like you and I have so much in common. Go on. Hit me with it. I love it.

You are in a world of your own. I love it. That was so sweet of you. But I grew up in the countryside, loving animals. tomboyish. Yes. And I felt like from a young age I had a sort of sense of self, which then growing older gradually eroded. And I feel like I'm only just getting back to that person now. And similarly to you, I was so desperate to earn my own living and be independent. And my first paid job was age 12. And I remember feeling so thrilled at the money that I earned. And you're so right,

being grown up held this great allure for me. I was like, I just need to be. be independent. So was it you who was driving going into modelling? So it was funny. I mean, my first job, I had a Saturday job. I think I was not 12. That's impressive. What was it? What did you do by the way? Come on, I need to know. A loser. I got a job as a fortnightly children's columnist on a local newspaper. Destined. Destined for it. Yes. Wait, so what was your first job? My first job was working at Herberts and Herbert was a hairstylist in Liverpool, like a celebrity. He was fabulous. He was a dandy. He was great. And it was just the glamour of Liverpool. All the most, you know, influential women would go in there and get their hair done.

And I kind of wanted to be a part of it. Little did I know. It was extremely hard work. And I I am not good with a basin and sink. That was an absolute disaster. And I lasted all of a day there, Elizabeth. At the end of the day, I was rolling the towels up. And she was like, you've been here all day and you still don't know how to roll the towels. I was like, I didn't know that much in-depth thinking behind it. But anyway, I got a paycheck of £20 and I was so happy and elated with it.

And I'm going to go spend it. So I wandered around the Liverpool City Centre and treated my... myself to a nice cup of tea on my own at 14 and I treated myself, I think, to something from accessoryise and I thought this is what it's supposed to be like. This is the life. This is the life. Yes. Yes. Okay, so then how do you segue into winning Miss Teen World? How does that happen? At that time, I mean, how many years are we going back? Maybe, I'd say, 16 years now. And pageants specifically, we're a really big thing in order to kind of give you a platform to something else, whether that be modeling or acting or using that as a platform.

And I think they have a little bit of a bad rap, and rightly so in some kind of circumstances. But if you use the title, if you use the competition in a way to kind of a stepping stone, I suppose, into something bigger than what that actually is. It's not just the title. It's, yeah, it's a push in the right direction. And I wanted that freedom. And I wanted to travel. I've got a gypsy heart on me.

I wanted to see the world. And, you know, my parents didn't have the means to be able to do that when I was younger. I don't think I've actually told anybody this. I was, my first boyfriend, we ended up separating. It was only like, you know, young love, one of those. And he went on to date, I miss Liverpool. And I was like, oh, what is this?

Well, maybe I need to do some investigation. I've never told anyone this actually. So it was from a fuel of, it was petty. It was petty. I'm a petty cow. Me too. It was pure pettiness. And I thought, right, what is this?

And I found it, I thought, well, I'm too young for Miss Liverpool. Is there any thing else I could enter into? And I found something, and it was Miss Team World, and it had different segments. It was charity. That was great. Writing for Disabled Association. I'd do that on the regular anyway with my mom. Interview.

We were talking about how Liverpoolians love a good chat. I was like, fine, I can handle that. And then obviously it was the stage performance and it was performing on stage and we're in glamorous outfit and a pair of heels and it was all a package. I thought, I'd really like to do that. It's in America. This is, you know, destiny. You know, it was America and obviously that's where dreams come true, especially when you're younger. That's what you imagine America to be like.

And as I say, you know, she comes from working class back. worked our whole life, minimum wage, and nothing was too much trouble. And she saw this kind of fire in my belly. And she said, let's do it. So we scoured the charity shops for evening gown. We signed up, we did the kind of preliminary applications, and all of a sudden, we were on a flight to Texas via Paris, via somewhere else. It was one of those really cheap flights, but we got there in the end.

What an incredible story. And then you win and you're spotted by this Bollywood director. Now, how on earth do you manage to get that part? What happens in the audition process? And are you in this mindset of, well, I might as well say, yes, this door has opened. Let's see what's on the other side of it. Back then, I was ready for anything. So I got scouted to be a model.

and I signed with them maybe three months prior to when this audition came through and ALVJ like you mentioned in the intro he was casting for a full British family to act in a film called madrasa pattern him it was a 1940s period drama and he'd seen a picture of me in the daily mail of all places and I was on this swing with my Miss Teen World and I'd box-died my hair red and he said need to find this girl. This is what I've been told. We need to find out. I'd like her to come in for an audition. And I turned up on the day after a phone call from my modelling agency, you've got an

audition. Do you want to go for it? I said, well, I've never acted before. Does he know that? Yes. Okay, do I need to prepare anything? Well, here are your scenes. Okay, well, what do I do with this? Just read them through. So there's me and my mom and my dad, you know, practicing them. He drove me down to London. I'd never experienced London before. We drove down in his little rackety cart, I think five o'clock in the morning, got there for 10 a.m. And I walk into a big hotel banquet hall on the Thames. And it is full to the brim of actors. And I think, oh my God, I'm really out of my comfort zone. I don't know what I'm doing. So we wait in line and eventually a couple of hours passed and I was taken in. And it actually went better than what I thought it would, you know,

what I thought it would go like, except for the fact that he asked me with the language barrier, I'd like you to mime this scene out to mime. So I said, okay. So I thought, okay, you can't use words. You just kind of use your, you know, your actions and your emotions. And about two minutes in, he said, that's great, but you know, you can use your voice, use your words. And I was like, oh, multiple. I thought he wanted me to. Yes. So we did it again. And it went really well. And I think it was the fact that I didn't put too much emphasis on it. I didn't know what to expect. So I went in very openly and quite confidently in the way that, all right, I'm going to do it my way and it worked. Your perseverance to get to that stage is pretty remarkable. But let's

tie it back to this failure, this idea of growing up too fast. So you then go to India and you're on a film set. What's that like? It blew my socks off. I think, you know, when you're exposed to something that's so culturally rich and different from what you know and what you've grown up with, I mean, it broadened my mind but instantly we got off the plane and it was actually before we even landed. My mum said to me on the flight over because I took my mom.

They really believed in family which is great. They have a really strong connection especially the director himself and family said you must come with your mom. She can come and be with you and you can do this together. You know, he realised that was only a teenager. But we were on the flight over and she said, bloody Hallame, I hope you can act.

And I said, I never thought about that. I said, I've never actually given it a thought. I was just like, this is an opportunity. I can't wait to tell the grandkids. We were just landed in India and we had the whole directorial team waiting for us. BJ is assistant directors. And I don't know whether you've been to India, Elizabeth. I have.

I've been to Carol and G. Goa. So beautiful. But it's busy, right? Yes. It's really busy and it's a bit of a shock to the system. So a cow crossing the road. There was a snake on the side, like a snake charmer.

And I was like, this is like a movie. This really was something that I've never experienced before because, I mean, beforehand we touched on childhood. And I'd never really been exposed to anything other than my immediate environment. It felt like I was supposed to be here. And not to say it wasn't difficult, I remember the first day on set and just the sheer colossal size of the sets and the amount of people probably not all necessarily needed. I mean, in comparison, now I knew no difference at that point,

but there would easily be about 300, 400 people on set. That's overwhelming. It was a lot. How did you cope with it? I think I just got on with it. and I learned to put a bit of a mask on. So I didn't want to let anybody know that I was feeling extremely nervous or out of my depth.

I didn't want anybody to think, oh no, we've cast the wrong girl here. So I did put best foot forward, a bit of a mask. But I must admit, I think if I am very honest with myself, the anxiety within my body that I wasn't actually allowing out. I wasn't allowing it to become my reality. But on the inside, it was a lot. A lot of sleepless nights, stressful, obviously a new language, a new culture, away from people that I've known my entire life.

Granted, I had mom. But then in the back of my mind, people really would love to be in that position. And in my mind, I had to keep reminding myself of that. But it didn't really help how I was actually feeling. Yes. It felt like it was an overload at the time. I think that's so well expressed. Why did you choose growing up too fast as a failure? I'm interested in how you think it manifested.

Entering into the film industry, you have to put on a performance and a role and you have to be something that you're not necessarily accustomed to. And I think a lot of it, as I mentioned, it was a bit of a facade for a lot of, for a long time and then you kind of lose sense of who you are. And for a long time that had a knock on effect. And it's only just in the recent years that have actually gone back and did the work to actually find out, okay, who am I? This is, it's going to sound like a really best world problem.

But when people are doing stuff for you all the time, you have somebody organizing your schedule. What do you want for lunch? Okay, you're wearing this today. You kind of lose sense. of the outside world and what you're actually supposed to be doing for yourself. So I had to rediscover that side of life. And that took a while. Welcome to Crime Scene, the new weekly show from The Binge, where we tell you the stories

behind the world's most unforgettable crimes. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. You may know me as the host of my fugitive dad or dear Franklin Jones watching you. I'm an executive producer of The Binge, the True Crime Podcast Network where we bring you a new series on the first of every month. For crime scene, I'm joined by my producer and co-host Cooper Mall,

the reporter and voice behind Fatal Beauty and the Crimes of Margot Freshwater. We know there are a lot of true crime podcasts out there. I think what makes crime scene different is that Cooper and I have boots on the ground.

We're investigative storytellers. And so many of the stories that come across our desk, we haven't been able to share with you until now. So if you're one of the millions of people who have flocked to the binge for riveting storytelling, deeply investigated true crime series.

Think of this as all the things that you love about those shows in a single episode. Join us every week in the crime scene office wherever you listen to or watch your shows. This is crime scene, available now. Susan Galbraith was a housewife in Mayfield, Kentucky. But after a murder in town, Susan took it upon herself

to find witnesses who could point to a killer. She thought she was going to be a hero. But that's not what happened. happened. The lies, a lot of lies. What were Susan's real motives? She wasn't in it to help them find the killer. Why then did the cops take her seriously? It was known that she was getting funds from them. Susan's son is wrestling with his mother's legacy to this day. I mean, my mom was, I used the word diabolical. And perhaps the biggest question of all is, did she help convict an innocent man? I do feel like that they got the wrong people.

From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, this is My Mother's Lies, available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes all at once, ad free. I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago, and you can all go listen to it, ad free by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. podcast, Corinne. Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jig Handel's story. I created it about a man named Jake, who I met, who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use.

But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story. It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and cheering it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen. And subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad-free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. I'm interested in what was the craziest thing that happened to you as a Bollywood star. What was the most pinch me surreal moment where you thought, oh my goodness.

Good or bad? Either. Let's go good. Let's do bad later. Okay. There is a legend. He is iconic. People have temples for him. His name is Rajani Khan. And I got to act alongside him. He has been in the industry for over 55 years.

And we had a promotional tour. And I remember we were there with the director and we had it big and larger than life it was in Dubai. And I thought, how on earth have I gotten here? You know, going from Liverpool and a very, you know, quaint life into being catapulted into this kind of world. And I really did have to pinch myself. We took a helicopter over the palm and landed on that.

I mean, I'd never seen any of this before. I'd never travel. I'd never seen sites like this and we landed on the Burj Khalifa but in the midst of it at Rajani Kansar he sat me down and he gave me a real heart to heart about life and I don't think anybody has ever done that

within the industry. I mean he's so knowledgeable and so worldly. Can you remember any pieces of advice that he gave you? At the time I was back-to-back films and it was from one country to another which sounds great, actually on the other side, you kind of, you know, you lose yourself. You're in the midst of work, which is fantastic. It was something that I never dreamt of doing. But you're on to the next

and you're on to the next and what else and what should we do next year. So he really made me take a step back, breathe. He was very much into yoga and his breathing exercises. We actually did one of those in the helicopter itself. And it actually made me realize, you know, you've got to enjoy it. Humble approach. And I think that was very poetically put by him because you get distracted by the glitz and the glamour and but actually

enjoying it. And I think that was something that I wasn't doing at the time. Did you get into yoga? I did. Are you still into yoga? I'm not very bendy. I've got to be honest. But I'm a lot better than I was before. Okay, let's move on to your second failure. This is the first time we've ever

had this one. Really? Yes, and it's such a good one. It's such a powerful one because, again, so many people will relate to it. It's romanticising the perfect family dynamic. And my heart slightly broke for the younger you reading that. Yes. Tell me where this romantic idea of what the perfect family dynamic first started. Was it as a result of your parents getting divorced? You wanted to kind of create something for yourself that wasn't that? I think it definitely come into play. I think the phrase hopeless romantic, emphasizing on the hopeless is definitely something I can lend my name to an associate with. And I think a lot of it come from a place of lack, not from a lack of love. As I mentioned, a great relationship with my mom's best friend. Dad was very present. Love my sister.

I was with her yesterday. but there's a nine-year age gap as well. So the family unit was not necessarily there, but I always yearned for that family unit. And I think I put so much emphasis on that, even as a child. I mean, career-wise, I didn't really have a plan. And, you know, I'd take every opportunity as it came my way. But with my personal life, I think I was 11 or 12 and I was like, I knew what I want.

And I can, you know, envision this beautiful family home with a loving partner and, you know, kids and all this, you know, happiness and fun and love. Love, I've got a lot of love. And I was desperate to put that into something. So I romanticised that idea again. for many, many years. And I think, you know, when you're a teenager and you go through that in your early 20s, and that's the time now in hindsight,

you should enjoy single life and you should enjoy the world and seeing it. And I think I put so much emphasis on a relationship. And I think that blindsided me a lot when it came to the idea of love. and what love actually is? I completely understand what you're saying. Do you good?

100% to give you context from the age of 19 to 35, I was in a series of back-to-back long-term monogamous relationships because it felt too scary to be on my own and because I was absolutely trying to create that dynamic. And I lost sight of my own desires in my way. rush to build that. And from what you're saying, you'd already made a living in so many ways by performing perfection for others. That you had to. That was your job. And I imagine the knock-on effect for you, as it was, for me, was people-pleasing. Very much so. Debilitating people-pleaser

through and through. And my body was in turmoil with it. I was speaking to my therapist. about people pleasing and I'm so aware of what I was doing and why I was doing it. But she actually told me it's actually a form of manipulation. And I was like, okay. I was like, well, I'm going to stop that then because actually I'm doing it to make their life easier if I know that, then I'm just going to do and say as I please and, yeah, see how that works. but I didn't actually realize I was doing it at the time.

I just wanted to keep the peace. I think it stems back from childhood and wanting it to be easy and peaceful as possible. Mum and dad, you know, they had their arguments and the ups and downs, and I didn't want to have an effect in any way to kind of, you know, emphasize that or add any other problems. So I was conditioned by myself. to become a people pleaser.

And that fed into my relationships massively growing up. So I don't know if this speaks to you, but I felt that in my romantic relationships, until I got divorced at the age of 35, I was just outsourcing my sense of self to whatever I thought my romantic partner wanted of me. Exactly. And of course, it wasn't necessarily what they wanted of me,

but it's what I thought they would want. So I was trying to shape shift. And it meant that I never showed up as myself. I now realize that now. It wasn't that I was lying. It was just that I think I was scared that I wouldn't be loved. Or enough.

Or enough, as I truly was. And you have said that you were a magnet for narcissists. Again, hard relate. Good, okay. Why do you think? Well, not good. I'm sorry. I'm extremely sorry. We're through it now.

Yes. Why do you think that was in your case? Again, not knowing my self-worth, my lack of boundaries. And I, as we touched on, and I'm glad you said it, because I do empathize with my younger self, but if I could just get hold of her and say, come on, you've got this, where are your boundaries?

I didn't know what that word actually meant. I really genuinely didn't. I thought it was just a word that, you know, the LA cloud through about, where are your boundaries? But come back to your question about magnet for narcissists. I was drawn to them and they were drawn to me. When I look back now, I go, oh, Amy, the red flags were on fire. What were you doing?

I was romanticising again and I think very charming. They talk a good talk. They swoop you in. And initially, obviously they're a very controlling individual, But that control for me, I confused as almost love. And, well, he loves me. That's why he's saying this. That's why he doesn't want me to do it in this way or say that or, you know, be a different person in that way and shape and form.

But I think I confused that controlling behavior for somebody who was loving and caring. and in actual fact it was the complete opposite. So well put. The most dysfunctional relationship I ever had, when it ended, I remember him saying, you'll never find anyone who loves me like you yet. I was going to mention this. I can relate massively, Elizabeth.

And I think, how long did it take for you to leave that relationship? Seven years. Are you marrying each other right? I know, this is so weird. It is so weird hearing your experiences. Now, looking back, I understand that is the definition of someone who is a narcissist, who love bombed. But exactly like you, the control felt like safety. And it wasn't.

It was absolutely the opposite. It was actually dangerous. Yes. And now that I'm with the partner I'm with now, thank goodness, I understand true safety and true love being that measure of acceptance. Most definitely. I always remember when I first started to date my husband and I had a year of just figuring it out and doing me. And I actually went into single life thinking, oh my God, off the back of a conversation like that, you'll never find another mate. I don't want another you. Thank you for eliminating yourself for my inquiries. I actually, I don't think I want another man as long as I live. I was really in that. headspace. And that's with a range of different relationships that I've had. But similar to yourself, I think it was very codependent and I went from a back-to-back monogamous relationships throughout my

20s. And unfortunately, it wasn't until I had my eldest and I thought, okay, we come to a point and it's now or never. Like this is going to be life. And this is not a rag on the past relationship. I really do believe, you know, I was a grown adult. I had a responsibility to probably leave sooner or handle things in a different way, but I didn't have the coping mechanisms back then that I do now. And, you know, looking back at that relationship, the timing was right. I left at the time I was supposed to leave. And we are both, great parents and I wouldn't want to say anything. That would be damaging because obviously he's a great dad.

Their relationship is actually fantastic and it's very different to our relationship, hence why we separated. But I think romanticising that family dynamic and I think that's why both of us, you know, stayed in a relationship for such a long time because we wanted that family unit But obviously, once our son arrived, I realized I didn't want that environment for him.

And I also wanted to be a whole person. And unfortunately, I don't know whether it's embarrassingly, but it is, I feel a little bit of shame around it. I wasn't able to leave for myself. It was my son and having him at the forefront of my mind. but it was because of that and because I wanted to be a whole person and a whole woman and a whole mum for him you know we went our separate ways

and it was tricky it took a long long time to feel like myself and get on the right path as you say and and trust again I remember when I first started dating Ed and he was so nice

he was so nice I thought it was like an act. I didn't believe that somebody could actually be nice to me and compliment me. And I was waiting for, ha ha, you know? And I didn't fully understand it. I'd never really experienced a relationship throughout my entire life that was kind. It took a lot of getting used to. The communication, I mean, being able to talk about feelings.

I've never had that in a relationship and it was so difficult to actually you know kind of articulate how I was feeling at the start so when somebody holds space for you in that way wow it opens up a whole other level of love I'm so moved hearing you talking that way and there are two things I want to say

one is I want to remove that shame or embarrassment that you feel for as a. you put it not being strong enough to leave on your own terms, I actually think there's something so powerful about you as a mother that when your son was born, that gave you the strength to do it. That speaks so highly of you, I think. And actually that family unit, the quote unquote perfect family unit, which is a myth, but you've got as close as you can to it

by allowing yourself to be whole, allowing your son to have these two terrific parents who aren't trying to make something work that was never destined to work. And that is the perfect family unit in so many ways. It's definitely is now. And you just have a different vision when you're younger and a template. A perfect family template. That just didn't work in this respect. But now, yes, and it's taken many years and we've actually got to a point where this blended family, we are the healthiest we've ever been, his dad and I. and he has a stepdad, he has a stepmom on the other side, and we are this blended family and we're a concoction of making it work.

And, you know, my little boy, he is very strong. You know, they say kids are resilient, he has resilience through and through him. And I think that was when we both decided he is our main priority and when all the noise and all the background and he said, she said, and the emotional side of things got put to one side, that's when we were able to move forward with things. But it takes time. Yes.

How old is Andreas now? He's six. Also, the other thing that I related to was you saying it took you a while to get used to Ed being nice to you. And Justin, my husband, it was so unfamiliar the way that he showed up. in our dating and then our relationship, that I thought there was something odd about it. I thought it was all. Me too.

Yes. Rick, it was so consistent. Why is he getting in touch when he said he means? Exactly. He said he was going to message and he messaged. How unromantic. I thought I was meant to be feeling anxious. It's so...

So true. It's so unhinged what we do to ourselves. It's crazy. And I... didn't know at the time. But I was just conditioned to, as you say, a romantic kind of love. You know, you're living on the edge. And that's how it's sexy and romantic. But I was in turmoil. I mean, I was not happy in any of my relationships beforehand. And it's so toxic. And I played a part in that toxicity. I really did. So as you say, when you say it's unromantic, when you actually

get a message when you're supposed to get a message and they plan the next date. I was like, oh, well, this is new. Okay. And initially, I took a little step back because I thought, oh, this is, this is the real deal. This is like a genuine relationship. And it took me a few months to think, oh, he's actually being genuine and actually does want to take me out and compliment and do nice things and have meaningful conversations. And I was like, oh, this is actually really refreshing. I could get used to this. But it took some time.

He is the world's best communicator. He is a cancerian. He's very in touch with his emotions, let's say. And he has brought that side out in me, which I didn't know was there. I mentioned I didn't know how I was feeling. I didn't know how to articulate that side of things. But when you get somebody who prize it out of you, you know, in a very, in a very gentle way, it's liberating. Can we talk about step parenting?

Yes. Because I'm a stepparent. Yes, of three. Oh, wow. I need your notes on it. Oh, my gosh. And it's such, it's so complicated and it's so great simultaneously. And so many people don't feel equipped to have honest conversations about it because obviously it involves other people, other people, other.

relationships and other families. But I wonder if you could share with us what the experiences have been like of blending your families. You know, initially, that was my main priority when I was dating and I met men and I thought I would never, you know, want to or feel that I could introduce you as a step-parent. And that was a main priority for me, Andreas at the forefront, because You know, there's two of you. It's not just you anymore. You come as a duo. And I think when I met Ed, I did bring that up on maybe the first or second date. I threw it right in there. I did not mess about. And I said, obviously, you know, my son is, I'm not going to lie. My main priority, his happiness and, you know, making sure he is okay. And he then told us the story about his parents and how his eldest brother, has a different dad, but they were formed and, you know, Ed's dad came along, and that is his eldest brother's stepdad. And they are a beautifully blended family. And I think his mom, his mommy had a beautiful, beautiful relationship with her. And she was a child psychologist.

She was very kind. She was very gentle. I think he was introduced to that at an early age. and he wasn't scared by it. I think it can be quite intimidating for men specifically to maybe get involved with a woman who has a child and they're unaware of, you know, the ins and outs of it. That didn't scare him. So that gave me a lot of hope.

It was six months down the line of our relationship and we were at a point in time where we wanted to take it to the next step. And I thought, okay, how will I, number one, introduce him to Andreas and number two, you know, talk to his dad about it and have an open, frank conversation and make sure everybody's on the same page. And it was a very calm conversation and it went a lot better than I expected. Obviously, it's very difficult, obviously introducing somebody else into your child's life.

And he has a dad, he has a great dad, and I wanted to make sure that didn't get overshadowed or, you know, I was trying to fill that void or that space because, that was very much filled. So I wanted to make a point of that, but also he was a huge part of our life and we want to take it to the next step. I remember Ed's first experience of meeting Andreas and I think he was two and a half, three years old, which is actually really, it's a good age

because they kind of understand and they're open to the idea. But he turned up in these dinosaur dungarees head to toe with a dinosaur. This is Ed's, by the way, and not Andreas. Oh no, Andreas is very chic when he picks his outfits out. And I just thought, wow, and it made me love him even more. He wanted to make him feel seen, and he was very much into dinosaurs at the time.

And he was not afraid of getting stuck in there and, you know, having fun and not taking self too seriously. But you mentioned there, obviously, being a step mom yourself, it does come with difficulties and some beautiful moments, but difficulties at the same time. And I think that's what he is realizing now, because as you know, different stages of life for children and you come through different difficulties and different aspects of life for them. And obviously, Andres is six.

So six going on 16. Yes. And you've just had Oscar. And I imagine that's a whole different dynamic. A different dynamic. He is actually, I didn't know how that was going to go. And it was a big age gap there. You know, it was five and a half years.

It's actually served us well because he sees him as the baby. He sees him as the big brother. And he stepped into that role. And I think it's a really beautiful relationship that they've formed. I was very, I was very conscious. And you'll understand that with the blended family situation. obviously Andreas has to go and spend time at Dad's house, which he loves, but that means Oscar's at home with us. And I didn't want to ever make him feel that we're sending him off and Oscar stays there.

I don't know how to kind of articulate that, but I didn't want the jealousy to creep in. So I do tend to overcompensate when he is around, which is great because Ed is able to take care of Oscar, which is very demanding. He's a one-year-old and he's here there and everywhere. but we still very much have our mummy and dray-dray time. I've really made a conscious effort of that. And Ed is navigating fatherhood and being a stepdad. And it's difficult because obviously there are only certain ways you can navigate certain situations when you are the stepparent. And there are certain things you can and can't say.

Yes. So interesting. Yes. I'm like, you know, you. You can help me out. And he's like, I can't really help you out. This is a mom and dad thing. You know, you take control. I'm here and I will talk it through with him.

But, you know, it's you have the final say. I want to say how grateful I am and how grateful every single step-parent who's listening to this will be that you've just said that. And you've been honest about both the joy of it and the wonder of it and the complexity. Because I think the more we have these conversations, the less isolated people feel because it is one of those things that is so under explored and so under-talked about

and I completely understand what you're saying. So one of the things that Justin said to me on our second date because we talked about children and he said, well the thing is, is my kids don't need a parent

because they have two great parents and I found that very liberator and it's certainly the case that I can be there as this kind of friendly adult is more like an aunt or a godparent. But there were years when Justin and I were trying to have a baby. And had that happened, I was very aware of the complexity.

Because one of the things that step-parents struggle with is, am I allowed to tell my partner's child off? Am I allowed to set a boundary? And that's just a constant conversation. So I salute you both for being actively involved in that conversation and raising this wonderful family. We're trying. You are. You're succeeding. Okay, your final one, which I feel like we've touched on throughout, is not listening to yourself.

And then you put brackets, mind, body, soul, exclamation mark. I think that's three exclamation marks. I didn't realize they would send them over in that format. It was my brain dumped to you. But I love that. I can tell so much about someone. So not listening to myself sooner. Yes.

In so many different ways. And, you know, the more I learn about myself, and about my body. I just did not know much about my own body. I was never taught about it in school. I've only really just learned about my own menstrual cycle. And when those two days a month come, and I'm like, oh, I know what's happening.

I swear, only within the last couple of years, I'm like, ah, this happens every month. Okay, I know this now. Beforehand, I was ready to go away and lock away the key, you know? I was like, throw me in there. But I think learning about your body and about everything that impacts it, you know, the stress levels and the sleep and the skin and everything. And I did not know much about my own body until I was a grown woman. I didn't listen to myself that people pleasing crept on in.

And it really throws you off, that gut intuition, your gut instincts. I mean, as a woman, if we ignore that, you're completely off sync. The balance is just not there. And I've only just learned to home in on that. And if something doesn't feel right, it's usually not. Yes. There are so many things going on there because as women, just we've been culturally conditioned for centuries, just to not trust ourselves and also not know ourselves as a condition of oppression.

in many ways and exactly the same. Menopause was never spoken about when I was a child. Taboo subject. Thank goodness for our Queen Davina McCall and others like her who bring these conversations to the fore. Fertility, again, nothing that I was ever taught about at school, wish I'd known. And you're right that actually as we get older,

that's the time that we start doing our independent research and we start kind of listening to ourselves so much more. So if you could give a piece of advice to your young, younger self, Amy, to the self that found herself on that film set in India, celebrating her 17th birthday. And not even just to you, but to anyone who is listening to this and is feeling a bit trapped in people pleasing and doesn't really know what to do about it. What piece of advice would you give them? I think going back to what we just said, if it doesn't feel right, then it's not right. And then you can communicate that. But you've got to actually know how

you're feeling and not afraid to voice it. I was afraid for so many years to actually voice how I was feeling and that it did me so many disadvantages in life and I think if only I used my voice more when I felt something niggling inside me. I mean it you can go on and on and on and then eventually you blow up. It can be easily, easily saved and in the short term if we just listen to ourselves and we're able to speak out and voice it. What were you afraid of? Not being liked, truthfully. Not being liked and having a different opinion or I actually think this might be better.

And, you know, coming back to what you said, Elizabeth, you know, where are you going to go? Or I know you better than you know yourself. All of these things that you would listen to. And actually now, I'm like, that's not true. Yes. I know who I am. I know what I am. want but I think I was very impressionable as well as a young girl and I think ignoring those

gut instincts did not lead me in good stead and I just wish I had a voice did at an earlier age well do you know what I want to say to you Amy is that the Amy that I've been lucky enough to meet is so likable so lovable we adore you all the more for your honesty and your realness and what you perceive of as your imperfections. It's been such a joy talking to you and thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. That was wonderful. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.