How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Andy Cohen - ‘Madonna says I’m a trouble-making queen’

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Andy Cohen doesn’t just shape the culture. He is the culture. And if you think I was excited-slash-terrified to interview a man who means so much to me (despite us never having met until this moment) then you would be entirely correct. In many ways, Andy is the godfather of reality TV. He’s responsible for the birth of The Real Housewives franchise, without which we would never have had some of the most iconic small-screen moments of the last 20 years or spin-off shows such as Vanderpump Rules and Below Deck. He’s also the host of the phenomenally successful late-night talk show Watch What Happens Live, the author of five New York Times bestselling books and has even appeared as Zeus in a Lady Gaga music video. We talk about…everything. I get all the tea on The Real Housewives - its inception, its stars and which housewife gives him the best gifts. We chat about that baby shower. We talk about why John Mayer would be Andy’s ideal husband. We talk about gay parenting, surrogacy and why an incident in a playground with his son left him feeling like a failure. We talk about knowing your audience, how difficult it is to deal with online trolling, why he’s never had any plastic surgery and whether he’d ever share a bath with Meredith Marks. One of my favourite ever interviews. Thank you so much, Andy! NEW HOW TO FAIL WITH ELIZABETH DAY PRESENTED BY HAYU LIVE TOUR DATE Friday 28th March 2025 – The London Barbican Go to: www.fane.co.uk/how-to-fail Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole and John Scott Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt

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of you that I absolutely love HeyU. For the price of your morning latte, you can get access to all the freshest and most iconic reality TV on the same day as new episodes air in the USA. I'm obsessed with it and you should be too. And what's more, The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is launching exclusively on Hey You from today, the 20th of November. Strap in for a new season of drama where Kyle and Dorit not only find themselves navigating their fractured friendship, but also deal with the fallout from their respective marriages. A new housewife joins the cast, Bozoma St. John, Oscar-nominated actress and Sutton's BFF Jennifer Tilly, and Kathy Hilton officially join the group as well. Watch new episodes of The Real Housewives from Beverly Hills to Salt Lake City the same day they air new episodes in the USA, without ads and on any device, only on HeyU. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that believes all failure can be an opportunity to grow.

I have an extremely exciting announcement for you, which is there is a whole new range of how to fail merch designed by me with a little help, sustainable and a whole range. We have quarter zips, we have socks, we have hoodies, we have caps. It's all designed to help you wear your failures with pride. Just go to elizabethdaymerch.com, that's elizabethdaymerch or one word, dot com, and place your orders there. Thank you so, so much. When my guest today was inducted into the Hollywood Walk of Fame, he was described as America's gay best friend. It's true that Andy Cohen

has befriended many millions of people around the globe, even if they've never actually met him. Whether it's as the unflappable, hilarious host of the Real Housewives reunions, or fronting the high-low pop-cultural behemoth Watch What Happens Live, or whether it's as the author of five deliciously gossipy New York Times bestselling books, many of us feel not only that we know him, but that we love him and have much to thank him for. Cohen was born in St. Louis, studied broadcast journalism at Boston University, and started out as an intern at CBS News. He became vice president of original

programming at Bravo in 2004. Two years later, he was exec producing the first ever Real Housewives series. In the 20 years since, The Real Housewives has become one of the most culture shaping franchises on television, and Cohen a superstar. He once appeared as Zeus in a Lady Gaga music video. New York Magazine recently said Cohen was known for his willingness to go there, an assessment more than borne out by the fact he once got Meryl Streep to play Shagmary Kill, and Rafe Fiennes to record a dramatic monologue as Real Housewife Lisa Barlow. monologue as real housewife Lisa Barlow. I like being provocative, Cohen says. It makes me feel alive in a weird way. It's dangerous. It's spontaneous. I think it sometimes gets to the heart of who a person is. Andy Cohen, welcome to How to

Fail. Thanks for having me, Elizabeth. I'm so excited. What a nice intro. Well, I have so much to thank you for personally. Oh. You honestly, I don't know what I would have done without the television that you have created and the presence that you are on screen over the last decade. That makes me very happy to hear, especially all the way across the pond. Yes. Well, we're delighted to have you in the UK.

Yes. And you're here because you're attending Hey You Fan Fest. Yes. to have you in the UK. And you're here because you're attending Hey You Fan Fest. And I am a huge Hey You fan. And I'm looking forward to the festivities. Where does your love of provocation come from, do you think? I don't know, but it's funny.

I think my son has it too. This summer, he did something horribly provocative and then said, I just did it to get you riled up. And I was like, oh my God, this is exactly what I used to do with your grandma. I think the idea of speaking about the thing that is meant to be the thing that you don't speak about or the thing that everybody is thinking,

but maybe is less than polite to discuss is exactly the thing I want to discuss. And it's almost like I have some weird instinct. I'm like, oh my God, how am I gonna bring this up? Like it works well on television, I have to say. Do you ever get nervous before bringing the thing up? Usually I've figured out in my head how I'm gonna bring it up and then I just go for it.

I think it just feels exhilarating. Do you remember loving TV when you were young? Oh yes, I was, you know, and anytime I beat myself up thinking, oh, I let Ben watch TV a little too long today, I think, dude, you were just parked in front of the television for most of my childhood, I loved it so much. And I think I wanted to be on it, And I know I wanted to work in it. It was just the thing I was most interested in. Who was the person that you were most interested with?

Everything. Charlie's Angels, Dynasty, The Brady Bunch, big award shows, Battle of the Network Stars. Everything felt like a big deal when I was growing up because there were only three channels and everything that was, it was the age where Americans all gathered around their television and they all watched the same shows. So there was a community around television that's much, I mean, obviously there's a community around Housewives.

There are so many subgroups now of communities, but there it was truly the era of mass entertainment. You mentioned Housewives there and the sense of community that has grown up around it. And I'm a proud member of that proud and vociferous member of that community. Thank you. No, thank you. It's a great community.

It really is. It's tolerant. It's fabulous. I listen to all of the podcasts that dissect. What's your favorite Housewives podcast? Bitch Sesh. They're so good. They're great. Well, I've heard you on Bitch Sesh. Big fans of theirs. Yes. They are great.

And I do love Watch What Crapens. I don't know how you feel about the name. They're funny. Yeah, they're great. They're so great. They do a very funny impersonation of me. It goes to show how long the Housewives has been going. I remember when these Housewives podcasts started and I remember hearing about a few of them at the very beginning and I was territorial. I was like, well, wait, you can't be doing this. And then I was like, dude, they're doing a podcast all about your shows. This is good. And I think one of the things that people often get wrong if they haven't watched Housewives is that they dismiss it as superficial and trivial.

They get everything wrong because they just say it's toxic and they throw wine and it's only about confrontation and of course it's about so much more. If it was only about that, it would not still be on the air because that would be cartoonish and black and white and it just that that's not sustainable. So what does the term housewife mean to you? Well, it was always meant as a wink. You know, we the show was a wink to the show Desperate Housewives, which was a big hit on ABC scripted show. We were like, okay, well, this is the real housewives. And of course, there was not that much real about them because they were early adopters of Botox, breast implants, pieces in the hair.

They were augmenting themselves in a quest of youth and beauty. Some of the forerunners of that quest on television, you know, at the time that we started Botox was not a mass thing and the Housewives were doing it. So I think that the real term was a wink. Listen, to be a housewife in 2024 is just to be a modern woman. So I think it's turning that up inside itself. I always feel that Housewives is the first place that I see certain things that you, that it takes much longer to see on scripted TV.

So for instance, dating as a widow, for instance, the reality of IVF, the first place I saw that was Housewives when I was going through it. And so actually I find it a revolutionary form of television. I do too. I've, by the way, I mean, look, I'm a gay man. I've learned so much about women from watching the show. I know more about fibroids because of Cynthia Bailey. But it really, but so many of the housewives have had fibroids. Yeah, I'm all ears.

Have you had plastic surgery? Because you often ask how I suppose it is. Look at my face. Your face is beautiful. Well, thank you. I've not touched it. I've never even had Botox. Joan Rivers before she died used to beg me to get Botox. And every guy that I know who's hosting a TV show, mainly all of them are younger than

me or about my age. They all have had Botox. I look at their foreheads. I'm like, your forehead does not move, but I haven't done it yet. Why? It's not something that I think I need to do. I don't know who I would be doing it for.

I will probably do it soon, maybe. I don't know. Okay, I don't think you need to, but I was just interested. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you need to, but I was just interested. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Because so many of the housewives I think feel under pressure to look a certain way. They all do. Yeah. So many women today and men. I mean, I know so many gay guys, the group of gay guys came over to my house this summer and I was like, I said to my friend

who brought them, I said, this is like botched. I said, this has to stop. I said, you, your generation, what are you doing to yourselves? Like you're handsome young men. Stop this. Yeah. So I think people need to get a hold of themselves. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's get onto your failures. So your first failure is the first show you ever made for Bravo. The first show that ever made for Bravo. The first show that I produced for Bravo. Okay. My first time I became in charge of programming. And the idea was there was a show that I mentioned earlier called Battle of the Network Stars

that was on in the United States in the 70s and early 80s. And it was once a year, and they would take the biggest stars from each network and that would have them compete in kind of very stupid, you know, a relay race or swimming or tug of war. This was before entertainment tonight. This is before entertainment media. So you never would see Farrah Fawcett

or any of these big stars outside of the shows that they were on, unless Barbara Walters was interviewing them. So it was really cool for me who loved stars and celebrity and all this. So the idea was Battle of the Network reality stars and this was now 30 years later. We did it as kind of a kitschy wink to the 70s and they were wearing similar clothes that they wore. And the idea was that the big stars on TV that in those days were reality stars. We took big stars from all the networks,

from Survivor, American Idol, Amazing Race, Project Runway on Bravo, all these shows. We had them compete against each other. Bravo spent a ton of money on marketing. And it was really a bomb. This show really bombed. And I kept saying to my boss, Frances Barak, who is still my boss at Bravo,

she didn't get it. I was like, trust me, this is gonna be a huge hit. Now it was a big bomb. We do a lot of research at Bravo and we studied why it was a bomb. And what we found out is it was just really off brand for Bravo. And had it aired on VH1 or E at the time,

it would have been a big hit. Was just wrong for Bravo. So that was a really big lesson in programming for your audience and figuring out where your brand is. And we then drilled down for the next few years and figured out exactly what our brand was and how we were programming into our brand. We did it very successfully and without that drill, I'm not sure any of the rest of this

would have come, but first of all, no failure is a failure because you learn from your failures. That was, I think, the first time I really ever thought to study a failure. I was so interested because I had been so sure of it. And I've had more television failures and it's always usually as a producer, you know what's wrong with the show. It feels good a lot of times to have the research tell you exactly what you already knew. And you're like, okay, well, my brain is correct. And so I'm good. How were they competing, these stars from district to district? They were competing in stupid challenges, like tug of war and, you know, like if you would have a field day and you would go do sports on the field day. Yeah.

And so what did the research show about what the Bravo audience specifically wanted? How would you describe the Bravo audience? Well, it said this was not on brand. This seemed like an E show or a VH1 show. It didn't feel like a Bravo show. Bravo at that time had Project Runway, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. So it didn't feel like a Bravo show.

They were right. And this is before the Real High-Size of OC. Okay, so will you tell us the origin story of the Real Housewives of OC? So in my past life as a print journalist, I interviewed Scott Dunlop who filmed this documentary as he thought it was, this fly on the wall series about a set of housewives. It was kind of a mockumentary the way that he shot it. There was narration, was a little funny. Scott Dunlop was an ad exec in Orange County. He lived in Cotto da Casa,

down the street from Vicki Gunvalson, Gina Keough, and he knew Slade Smiley, and he put them all on tape. It was a weird tape, but we were really interested. Vicki was an insurance agent who had a grotto in her backyard. And, you know, this woman, Lori, who worked for her,

they would get in their bikinis at lunchtime. They were very endowed in the chest and very blonde. They were moms. It was just a different kind of mom we had ever seen. It was a different kind of insurance agent. It was a different way of life. It was sexy and it was shocking and it was aspirational. So I thought, well, if this is,

if we're gonna produce this show about these women, this should be like a soap opera because we would touch down on their personal lives and see them at home being moms and wives and whatever. And then we would see them together. And it was very much at the beginning a fly on the wall. We didn't have that much the first season. We thought about killing the show, but you know, there were, there were little pieces

of intrigue. Kimberly had a little cancer scare. Vicky was an overbearing mom. Laurie was dealing with the son with addiction issues. So they all beneath the surface, they all had some things happening in their lives that were dramatic and interesting and relatable. Yeah, and it was all we've set up these confessionals. So it was interesting. That was an avenue where we could hear them, what they thought of each other. And that was new. So that was how it started.

It's so interesting, the confessional, I've always wondered how long after the actual event that they're talking about are those confessional films? Somewhere right after. We start shooting confessional while they're in production. And I have to get the exact number, but I think on average the women sit for maybe six sessions of confessional. Sometimes they match their clothes and hair, so you don't know that it's a later date that they're being interviewed. We try to shoot them as close as possible to the time

because they remember more from what they were feeling and thinking. A lot of times six months later, they have no recollection. I mean, a lot of times it's a meal where they had two martinis and they're like, I don't remember. I mean, we're still shooting confessionals for Salt Lake City and the season's airing right now.

What qualities do you think make for an iconic reality TV star? I can only speak to the stars on Bravo and they are outspoken slash opinionated, aspirational and funny. Yeah. You couldn't have a conflict avoidant reality. No. No, that wouldn't work. No, I mean, there are some people who are conflict avoidant,

and that's interesting too, because eventually they're going to have to deal with it. You know? Yeah. It's taught me a lot, Housewives, about being able to trust that a friend that is worth having will be able to withstand you saying how you feel to them? I agree. I'm really not scared of confrontation anymore. I mean, I don't love it, but one of my mentors at Bravo was very direct,

almost painfully direct. But it really taught me to buck up and get it together and understand the metric for success. Even though I sometimes was emotional about what was being said to me privately, there's a generation of people that don't care for it, but I think it's really the qualities of a great leader. Decisiveness, directness, and clarity.

my mind say, listen, they did just apologize to you in that huge word salad. They did say X, Y, or Z. I think listening is the most important skill a broadcaster can have or an interviewer. And so I try to see things that can move the conversation forward based on what's being said. And then also I really do know now when to cut and run. Like sometimes I'm like, I'm not even trying.

How's managing reality TV stars in this way helps you parent more effectively? I think so. I think that the kids have made me more patient with the women and the women have made me more patient with the kids. I think both. Yeah. Before we move on from this failure, I want to talk about Watch What Happens Live.

It's just celebrated 15 years. You are the only gay late night TV host. Yes. How about that the gay guy is the one that doesn't have the Botox? I mean, wait a minute. There's something awry here. Right. But I wonder if I could ask you about how you think your sexuality has played

into what you do, like what superpower does it give you in this format? If I was straight and I was asking a lot of the women, some of the conversations that we're having about body parts and things like that. I think that I'm able to be a little more anatomical about it because I've not slept with a woman. I don't plan on sleeping with a woman. I think we have a safe space where we can kind of come together and have honest conversations.

And so I think that's one thing. And I think the women have felt it with me. I think that there's something safe about me. I mean, look, I love camp, I love fun, I love dark humor, I love pushing the envelope. You know, I think I get away with talking about certain topics because I am gay that Jimmy Fallon wouldn't ever.

And also, he's the host of The Tonight Show. He's the host of a mass. Show this is supposed to be a fun find. Watch What Happens Live and the club of people watching it. It's like, oh, wow. Oh, you watch that show, too. That's kind of what it's supposed to be or that's kind of what it is. And so I think there's, I have an ability to ask Reba McIntyre if she's, she's ever tried poppers and she was like what she was on with Troye Sivan and she's like, what are poppers?

Troy's like, I'll explain it to you later. It's just funny. It's just a dialogue that wouldn't happen on another show. Yeah. Yeah. You have had some extraordinary guests on What's What Happens Live. You've had some of your heroes. You've had Cher. You've had Mariah Carey. You've had Oprah. Yeah. You haven't yet had Madonna. No. Hopefully, at some point before we wrap it up, she will do it.

She called me a trouble-making queen. The problem is that a lot of people have slagged Madonna off on my show. And because of that, it gets picked up. Patti LuPone said something bad about her, and it was picked up worldwide. And so I think she sees me sitting there with the guest, and I'm guilty by association. So I wound up after she called me a troublemaking queen, So I wound up after she called me a troublemaking queen, we do have each other's numbers. And I texted her and I said, I love you so much. And she said, you have a funny way of showing it.

I called my booker. And I basically had, overnight, I had my team put together a comp reel of like five minutes of me kissing Madonna's ass on my show just saying positive things. And I sent it to her and I said, this is the stuff that doesn't get reported on. And I think it landed very positive. She was like, oh my God, that's so nice. Let's keep the positivity going, whatever. So who knows? Maybe she'll do it. If she doesn't, it's fine because she's Madonna. So she can do whatever she wants.

But she's been to a party in your apartment. She has. Listen, I'll take what I can get. I don't care. I think there's something very beautiful about that, about her showing her vulnerability that she does actually care. What we all say about her. You wouldn't expect Madonna. Now, the other thing that I know from reading your books and that concerns me is that you don't get enough sleep. I know. Yes, I don't. I got eight hours last night though in London. Oh great. Maybe the key is jet lag.

And not having my children here. I mean, when my kids aren't around, my son wakes me up at ungodly hours still. He's five and a half. And so it will happen. It will happen. But even before you had children. Oh, well, I mean, I got no sleep for a different reason.

Yeah. Yeah, I was just burning the candle at both ends, like a psycho. Do you find it difficult to calm down after live TV? No. I now, as a dad, I don't drink that much when we're live anymore. So my studio is so close.

We're often live at 10 o'clock, do the show from 10 to 10.30, do an after show for six minutes. I am in the car, I am in bed, makeup off by 10.48. Lights off at 11 to bed. Okay. You used to love having a two hour massage after. I know.

I did get a massage the night before I left for London. I love that it's two hours, it's so chic. My guy really goes deep and he's amazing. Final thing that I want to ask you on this failure is again about being gay, that you have had people come up to you saying, Yes. I watch you with my son and it led to us having a conversation

about his sexual identity that we would never have had before. How much does that mean to you? Huge. Everything. It means absolutely everything to me. I mean, at this point, it also, someone came up to me yesterday in Marlborough and said- Thank you. Correctly done. Oh, good. Okay. I was waiting after I said it. How do you say the Scottish capital? Glasgow? No, a different one.

The other one. Oh, Edinburgh. No, Edinburgh. Edinburgh. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. Okay. I was close.

But someone came up to me and she was like, I've grown up on the housewives. And I was like, how old are you? And she said, I think she was 28. So then I did the math and I was like, oh, okay. She really has. So it makes me feel a little old, but it makes me feel very good. And it was John Mayer who said that,

that I'm gay best friend to a lot of people. And when he said that, I almost started crying. It meant so much to me. It was very impactful. And especially since when I was growing up, there were just not a lot of gay people on TV. It was just not, it was nothing to aspire to, trust me. You mentioned John Mayer.

He is a very good friend of yours. As is Anderson Cooper, as is Sarah Jessica Parker. You are renowned for being a friend, not only on screen to so many of us who haven't met you, but in real life. And in one of your books, I think it was the Andy Cohen Diaries, you wrote, I use my friends and job to replace a relationship. Wow, you're on it. Well, I think the thing about it is that the people that I have met and fallen in love with,

and I've been in love two and a half times, I'm gonna say, they were people who I very quickly into meeting them was like, ooh, this person is a special person. I want to talk to this person more. I also was physically attracted to that. It was like, you know, so I've known when I've met people, perfect storm, you know?

And so I do, I kind of am waiting for that person now to drop on my lap or into my view and I know that I'm open enough to it. But I think the standard by which I judge people, because I do, I go on dates and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, I'd rather be at dinner with my friend Jackie, who I've known, who I just spoke to, who is my son's godmother, who I grew up with,

who I'm still very close with. I just had tea with a friend that I grew up with in St. Louis from, we were born three days apart from each other who happens to be here in town. So my friends are all really old friends and even the group of famous people you mentioned, I've known Anderson 30 years, I've known Sarah Jessica 25 years, I've known Mayer 15 years. So these are people that have really been in my life for a long time. And I think that when I say that I'm replacing my relationships with them, I think also then I may have been replacing like a family with that. I mean, you know, your friends or your family, whatever. But now that I have kids, I feel so much more grounded in my life and my future.

I used to wake up in the middle of the night kind of paranoid about where things were heading, because I thought being a talk show host and fame and whatever it is, I just, I was cognizant enough to know that this wasn't enough to go all in on, because that's going to go away and then what? Today's episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Masterclass. This season, we're all looking for gifts for people who seem to have everything and that's where Masterclass comes in. Your loved ones can learn from the best to become

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good. An electric nose, ear and hair trimmer reduced now to £35. So, the perfect stocking filler. So what are you waiting for? Visit your nearest boot store and spread some holiday cheer with Manscaped and be sure to look out for fantastic savings on their products. Join the over 11 million men worldwide who trust Manscaped and give the gift of grooming this season. Your dog Waka, did he prepare you for parenthood? He did actually. I think he really did. He caused me in a very big way to really take myself out of myself. I mean, it made, you know, I was, Waka was the first, I was taking care of him and what, you know, I mean, there's

a million ways you have to take care of a dog and, you know, you have to get your ass out of bed when you don't want to. And you have to figure out caretaking and daycare when you leave town and this and that. So yeah, for sure he did. Your, your second failure pertains to parenting. Yes. And it's failure to be prepared with one of your children in the playground. This was just a specific instance where I was at a playground over the weekend, over a weekend with Ben. I think he was probably like three and it was

unseasonably warm that day. It was like an Indian summer and it was aseasonably warm that day. It was like an Indian summer and it was a birthday party at a playground. All of a sudden, they turned the water feature on at this playground. All the moms had changes of clothes for their kids. The kids were then suddenly in like swimsuits and running

around the water and Ben didn't have that. And I felt now this was also, I went through a real serious moment, uh, early in Ben's life where I was going to these events where with, with him, with his friends, where I didn't know anybody and I was the only single parent, I was the only gay parent,

I was famous, I felt, and I never, I do not carry around insecurity, I don't, I felt in those situations very vulnerable, insecure, unprepared, on display, judged. And it was all in my head, by the way. I've gotten over it, thank God.

And it was really, and by the way, every parent group that I've been around has all been lovely and whatever. It was really in my head. It was my own insecurities. But at that moment, and I looked at him and I was just like, Oh my God, I've my kid isn't able to be in the water and this was on me and whatever. And I just, I think I, I, I cried that day. I cried a couple of times that day.

I just felt lower than low. I felt so alone. I just felt like, and I felt very over my head and I felt like a failure. And what have I done to remedy that? Well, I think I've gotten my head together and I think I've just been in the game longer. And so I just have a confidence about it. And by the way, if I took Lucy to a thing

and she didn't have a thing, I'd say, oh, I forgot it. All right. So, but it was a, it was a, it was a really, it was a, it was a really vulnerable moment for me. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. How much of that do you think was internalized social conditioning? Oh, all of it. All of it. Yeah. No one else noticed. It wasn't like anyone was like, oh, wow, Andy, he really, you know, Ben was in the corner crying because he couldn't go in the water. He wasn't, by the way.

Oh, he didn't. Ben didn't notice. Okay. He did not notice. So I did. Do you think I tried and failed to have my own children? And I would love to talk to you about surrogacy in a moment. Yes. I tried and failed to have my own children and I would love to talk to you about surrogacy in a moment. But do you feel that being a parent,

so much of it is feeling incompetent and doing it anyway still? I think so. Were you able to be successful? Did you have one through surrogacy? I didn't. So my husband has three children already. And so it wasn't a step that as a couple,

we felt we wanted to do. We did egg donation and it wasn't a step that as a couple, we felt we wanted to do. Like we did egg donation and it didn't work. And then it was just so attritional. I've been at it for 12 years. I'm like, it's just too much. Well, I'm sure your children love you very much. My stepchildren, they're great. And I know that I have a function in their life, but it's a different relationship.

Well, I think as the years go on, that relationship will be beneficial and hopefully you'll be an island to them in a way that their parents can't. Thank you for saying that. It's true. So lovely of you. It's true. Yeah.

I bet you anything. You're going to wind up becoming like Princess Margaret and they're going to be like, ah, can I speak to you? Yes. Sorry, that is the best role model to aspire to. She's the chicest member of the royal family. I'm trying to speak to you. Souragasee.

Yes. Will you just talk to us about how that process was for you? My best friend, Bruce, who you've read about in my universe 15, 18 years ago, who had kids using surrogates. So that was how I became familiar with the process in a very intimate way. And it made it, it de-stigmatized it. And I understood it way more than going in cold.

And it's incredible to me how many people don't understand this. There are so many people who still say to me, well, does the mom whatever the surrogate is not the mom. What I did to explain it to people is there is an egg donor. I did not know the egg donor. Did you see a picture? Yes, I saw many. It's such a weird system, isn't it? It's like online dating almost.

It is. And it's the hardest decision I've ever made in my life and the most important decision I've ever made in my life. And so I chose the egg donor we did not meet from that egg and my sperm became an embryo, which then was placed inside the surrogate who acts as kind of an oven, an incubator, a carrier of the child surrogates. And I've met many, a carrier of the child. Surrogates, and I've met many, I helped make surrogacy legal in the state of New York over a period of two years.

I went to Albany and petitioned, and they have the best surrogacy bill in New York state with a surrogate's bill of rights that has unbelievable protections for surrogates. And there are a lot of very militant feminists who think surrogacy is akin to women selling their body or slavery or something. It's obviously very optional, but it also for all of the surrogates that I've spoken to is incredibly

rewarding for them. And I had two different surrogates, um, with Ben and with Lucy, they both shared the exact same philosophy. I said to both of them in our first meeting, I want to know from you what the moment is going to be like when you hand me the baby that you have just delivered. How is that going to feel for you? Because again, we talk about,

let's get to the heart of the matter. Let's talk about the thing that no one wants to talk about. To me, that's the elephant in the room. They both said the same thing and they said, that's why I'm doing it so that I can see you hold your child. I was like, wow. I cried in both instances. It's like, this is who these people are. I mean, they're children of God who are giving the birth, the ultimate gift that can be given. So both were amazing experiences and yeah, I can't say enough. I mean, I'll talk about it for hours.

Beautiful. Thank you. What presents have you got from Housewives? Oh my God, for the kids? Yeah. Unbelievable. Well, Lisa Barlow is such a loon. I saw her this morning in London. She was like, I just bought Ben the most amazing backpack. I'm like, Lisa, stop buying him. She bought Lucy these Gucci sandals, which by the way, really cut up her feet, which

I didn't tell Lisa this summer, but she's wearing them now with socks and it's perfect. The Housewives threw a very legendary baby shower for me. Oh, don't worry. I know. It kind of broke the internet and it was the first time ever, it was before BravoCon, it was the first time all the Housewives had been in one place together. It was like the five families in the Godfather movies. It was. And it was unsupervised. There weren't cameras there. There weren't any producers.

It was like my thing. I loved it. It was so exciting. And it was thrown by five OGs, Nini, Ramona, Kyle, Teresa, and Vicky. It was just incredible. And then the day before John Mayer says, I wanna come to your housewives baby shower. I go, John, you're not gonna know anybody. I go, this is kind of a work thing for me. He goes, I wanna see it. I wanna see it.

How cool. The coolest. That John came too. And the women loved it. It was like a little party gift for the women that he was there, but it was really fun. Anyway, there is a list in a, um, booklet of everything they all gave me the gifts that I got the baby gifts.

Uh, when Ben was born, Naomi Campbell, Kelly Ripa, uh, Elton and David, who I barely know. I mean, just incredible. I couldn't believe it. It was very exciting. Did Madonna send anything? No. Just checking. I remember we had sweet texts. She was really sweet with me about it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. We're at a time where B2B selling, that's businesses selling to other businesses, is tougher than ever. Which is why I want to tell you about LinkedIn Sales Navigator. This is a sales intelligence platform that helps

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forward slash advanced. That's LinkedIn.com forward slash advanced for a 60 day free trial. Let LinkedIn sales navigator help you sell like a superstar today. Just go to linkedin.com forward slash advanced and get started. Stringing December 3rd only on Disney Plus. From the directors of Spider-Man No Way Home and The Mandalorian comes a brand new series. It's dangerous out in the area of space. Join the crew. We have to move fast. As they explore the galaxy. We're not alone down here.

Don't miss the new Star Wars adventure. Do you want to join me? Skeleton Crew, two episode premiere, December 3rd, only on Disney Plus. Your final failure is your failure to remain immune to online trolls. Yes. I mean, the first piece of advice I give to all Housewives is don't read what people are saying on Twitter. It's so mean. And one day they will say, she's an icon.

She's a queen. She's a diva. And the next day, they're really just slagging you in a terrible way. So I'm pretty good. I have a wandering eye. It's a little crossed. That was the first time people online were like, look at him, he's so funny looking, whatever. So I've gone through levels of dealing with people saying terrible things about me and rumors and whatever. And I'm pretty good. I have to say,

I can open Twitter and search my name before bed and scroll through it and see a bunch of horrible things and turn off the light and go to bed. I mean. And you still do that. You will search your name. I do it occasionally, yeah. I also kind of like to know. Yeah. Also, a lot of times you can find out what other people are saying about you by doing that.

It's an interesting search mechanism. Usually it's just only me. My apartment is for sale right now. And there was a big article in the New York Times about it with a lot of photos. The pictures got picked up all over Instagram and this and that. It's like see inside Andy's apartment.

And the comments, and specifically the comments mainly from gay men were absolutely just so mean. And I love my apartment. I spent so much time. I had an incredible decorator, we collaborated beautifully. I love it. It's breaking my heart to sell it.

So- Was it mean about the decor? Yes. Oh, terrible. And mean about me and the decor. And that was a time that's surprising. I was like, whoa, this is hitting me. I thought I was immune, but I'm not. Well, I think that speaks quite highly of you,

that you're not immune because to do what you do, you need to connect and empathize. And in order to be empathetic, you need to have a skin that lets some stuff in. If you're not vulnerable, you can't connect. Yes. And the other thing is, is that what you do is such a bellwether for popular culture. Okay. And such a combination of high, low, and it's so brilliant at shaping how we see the world, that in a way you need to be in the mix to keep abreast of it.

Right. Yes, very true. So basically no notes. Yes, thank you. But it is a horrible feeling. No, it's a bad feeling, but I think it's also good to be reminded. You know, I mean, everybody, it's interesting always sociologically to me

to see what penetrates and what doesn't. Yes, what do you think does penetrate? What's the- Well, that was just very personal because it was my apartment and it's something that meant a lot to me. I've been posting about politics lately and people kind of mega people have been coming at me and saying terrible things about the way that I had my children and

just horrible things that are to me unthinkable to put in print. That's something that makes me recoil. You said earlier that you don't carry insecurity. So I'm interested in these two elements. Well, I mean, you know, that's when it comes out. It's not something that I, it's not gonna sink me for the day, but it's a moment where I feel insecure.

If someone said, you know, sometimes I'll respond to one person. I usually just move on. I mean, you know, with the thing about the apartment, I was like, dude, you're selling your dream apartment to move into your dream apartment. You're selling it for a ridiculous amount of money. Like go cry your tears, you know.

I mean, this is what you're upset about. So I usually give myself a reality check. Yeah. Also as an inveterate consumer of all things, Andy Cohen and all things, Bravo and Hey You and all things housewives. I did not see that. Well, whatever. I mean, now I need to know, but now I need to go online and look at your apartment because I've read a lot. I mean, you know, whatever. Yeah, it's fine.

Is this the one that you knocked through because you bought the one I said? Yes, exactly. It's four apartments combined and it's great. Yeah. If you're looking in the city that you knocked through because you bought the one? Yes, exactly. Okay. Okay. It's four apartments combined and it's great. Yeah. If you're looking in the city, all those step kids need a place to stay. Yes. ABC, always be closing. Yes, I do.

Okay. Yes, exactly. How do you feel more generally about fame? Because the books that you wrote, many of them are consciously modeled on the Andy Warhol diaries. Yeah. Yes. And he obviously famously said, 50 minutes of fame.

Right, right. How do you feel about it as a concept? Is it an interesting thing? I think it's fascinating. I've always been fascinated by fame. And I think if Warhol were alive, he would have painted some housewives at this point because his whole thing was making normal people famous. I remember in the very early days of the housewives,

I remember taking Vicky and Tamara and their then husbands to a restaurant in New York City called Florent, which is long closed, but was a real, it was in the meat packing district, which in that, in the day was a real meat packing district. And it was a very downtown edgy hip diner that I'm sure Warhol had been to, and Roy Lichtenstein and artists and drag queens.

And it was very edgy. And I thought there was something so camp about bringing Vicky and Tamara there because I was like, this is so camp. They're famous for being real, but they're outsized the way they look and everything. And the whole Warholian thing tracked from an early time of Housewives for me. And the Warhol Diaries to me was a pop culture time capsule from its era that he kept the diaries. He never meant for it to be published. It's very gossipy, but I thought, well, I could do this. You know, I'm going to the equivalent of whatever the parties were that Warhol was going to at that

time. And I'm seeing all these people and it's high and low and whatever. So those diaries for me are also meant to be a sociological look at fame in a certain moment in time. How would you like to be remembered? Happily, that people liked me, that they liked the shows, that I made them smile or something. Okay, you told me I could ask you anything. Yeah. So I'm taking you literally. Great.

And I'm going to put you through your watch what happens live paces. Oh, okay, fine. Yeah, you can through your watch what happens live. Okay. Fine. Yeah. You can feed the fifth if you want. Okay. Shag, marry, kill. Okay.

I know you can't do housewives because you have to be really, so don't worry. It's not them. Okay. John Mayer, Anderson Cooper, Madonna. Oh wow. I would marry John, shag Madonna and kill Anderson. Oh my God. Well, whenever Anderson is given in that shag, marry, killag Madonna and kill Anderson. Oh my God, that's so hard. Whenever Anderson is given in the shag, marry, kill,

I always kill him. Oh, have you had that before? That's annoying. Well, no, just with him, not that three combo. Okay, okay, okay. All right. Yeah, I would shag Madonna to see what all the fuss was about.

Yeah, and also you need to keep in her good books. Yes, and John and I, we could be, I mean, I feel like we would flourish as a married couple. Why? Well, I think we understand each other. We like each other. We love talking. I mean, if I could meet a gay guy that I connect with, like John, like I do with John, that would be incredible. Okay. Yeah. Do you, what do you think a good friend is? How would you describe what kind of friend you are? Attentive, loyal, communicative, caring, fun. Would you rather have Don't Be Tardy for the Party or Chic Selavi played at your funeral?

Don't Be Tardy. Okay. Would you rather live full time in summer house or winter house? Summer house. Okay. Yeah. Would you rather take a bath with Meredith Marx or share a bottle of Vita tequila with Lisa Barlow? I think the bath could be an HR issue, so I would do the tequila. Okay. Well done. And this is just for the delectation of real Housewives fans who I know will be listening. I want to see if you can complete this iconic line. It's a tricky one because there's a lot of it. Tom's house was broken into.

Oh my god. I can't do this. Tom's house was broken into. Snowstorm, Pasadena, the car flipped over. Yes. Police were called. Okay. Fragments are coming. You've done it brilliantly. Okay. It's, and he confronted the burglar and then he had to go have eye surgery. Oh, right. Oh God. And then my son had to go over and help. And then my son, he rolled his car five times on the way home. So yeah, I'm under a lot of stress. Yes. Yes. Wow. Andy Cohen, I love you so much. I know that everyone says that to you all of the time. I think I've fallen a bit in love with you today too.

Stop it. That's my dream. You're beguiling. Oh my God, Andy. Yes, you are. You took me in on your journey. I'm so pleased. Thank you.

You did. Thank you for being on How to Fail. My pleasure. Before we wrap up, don't forget the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is back exclusively on HeyYou from today. Behind closed doors, everything might seem hunky-dory, but perfection is just an illusion. Watch brand new episodes in every single season of The Real Housewives from Beverly Hills to Salt Lake City the same day they air in the USA, without ads and on any device, only on HeyU.

We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends, your family, even your enemies, I'm not fussy. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.