How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - BETWEEN SEASON BONUS! How To Fail: Colin Hehir

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

TW: This is an episode in which we talk about violence, loss and grief.This bonus episode is one of the most special, moving encounters I've ever had while doing this podcast. It was prompted by an incredible book I read while I was away over Christmas - a book unlike any other. But to explain how it came about, I need to take you back a few years.On 31st October 2015, 20-year-old Morgan Hehir was walking home after a night out with friends when he was viciously attacked by a group of strangers and stabbed in a random act of violence. He died later in hospital. In the aftermath of this tragedy, his father, Colin, started keeping a diary both of his grief and of his long fight to bring his son's killer to justice.That diary has now been turned into an extraordinary book, About A Son, written by the acclaimed novelist David Whitehouse. It’s a book that moved me to tears with its empathy and precision. And it’s a book that has brought me to Colin Hehir, who is today's guest on this very special episode of How To Fail.---About a Son is published tomorrow. You can order it here: shorturl.at/behiI---MAGPIE, my latest novel, is out now in the UK in paperback. You can order it here: shorturl.at/iuDEN---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Colin Hehir @Hairy007 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. On the 31st of October 2015, Morgan Hare was walking home after a night out with friends when he was viciously attacked by a group of strangers. He was stabbed in the heart and lungs and died later in hospital. Morgan was 20. He was a graffiti artist and a keen musician and he worked at the local hospital where people remembered him as someone whose smile seemed to enter the room before he did. For Morgan's father Colin, his mother Sue and his two brothers Connor and Eamon, it was the end of their family life as they knew it. The grief was all-encompassing. In the midst of this personal horror Colin started keeping a diary. It became a record of events, a testament to loss and a witness to his

attempts to find answers to his son's brutal and senseless death. It was a fight that took Colin all the way to the highest echelons of the police force and through the maze-like corridors of the British justice system. As Morgan's attackers stood trial, Colin wanted answers about why and how a violent repeat offender had been released from jail to kill his son. That diary has now been turned into an extraordinary book written by the acclaimed novelist David Whitehouse. About a Son tells the story of Morgan's life, of Colin's survival, and of what grief does to a person, written with both heartache and hope. It's a book that moved me to tears with its empathy and precision. It's a book that will leave you changed when you read it. And it's a

book that has brought me to Colin Hare, who sits opposite me now in my house, ready to tell us all about his beloved son. Colin, I'm so grateful you're here. Thank you for coming on How to Fail. Thank you for letting me tell my story. Thank you. Thank you for sharing this story with us. I cannot imagine how difficult it was to go through and then how difficult it was to relive in the retelling. And so I suppose I just wanted to start by asking you how you are today. Yeah, I'm fine. It seems like an age ago in many respects and 10 minutes in other respects to what's gone on. My life and our life as a family have been totally transformed with all the events. The main part is the loss and anything that I could do after that has always been about

that. I get no satisfaction from the quest that we went on but it was a necessary quest for me to follow. And the nature of grief I imagine is that it's incredibly unwieldy, that you never really know how you're going to feel on any given morning. Is that accurate? And of course, four years later, I feel different to what I did then. But I still feel that pain, but in a different way. And I've got the full story now where things went wrong or where they weren't right. But my quest or my search, I got the answers for me, not through a solicitor, not through external agencies. It was my quest to find out the answers. not through external agencies. It was my quest to find out the answers. And by me beating down the doors,

I got the answers that I needed to, I suppose, bring it to a close and where I am today. I'm not any better off for it, but I am. Yes. I sort of know what you mean, that sometimes there's a burning within you that you need to pay attention to. Yes.

You need to do something about it it's not going to change anything but it will quench the burning in a way it will put the fire out that is causing yeah and do you still keep your diary no but I'm starting to write again because there's so many of it like today for example that I'm doing more stuff again now because I've had 18 months since writing my diaries to the point of working with David. I now feel the need to start writing again because there are more things that are happening.

I only recently found out more details of where things went wrong in the system, which are not in the book. And I think it's really useful for other people to maybe listen. We are going to come on to everything that you went through in this quest, as you so brilliantly describe it. It was a quest. It was like a hero's quest. I know you won't like me describing you as a hero, but we'll get into that in more detail because I know it relates to one of your failures. know it relates to one of your failures but I wanted to ask you about the process of working with David Whitehouse to write this book how did it work on a practical level I mean initially I asked Claire Harrison who's a reporter from Nuneaton News I've basically said I've written a diary

I'd like to turn it into a book there's's a story here, but I know it's very one-sided. And I need somebody to write from outside of my bubble. And also I needed it editing because I can't edit my own life. It'd be impossible for me to say that's not important. I needed somebody else to take and sort that out for me. So I said, you know when your children come home from school with a drawing and you've got to put it on the fridge and you've got to pretend it's really nice even though it's crap I said will you read it and tell me if it's crap don't tell me you're going to stick it on

your fridge and pretend it's nice so she took it away and she read it and she said it's really good you need to do something with this but I can't it. I really can't give it the justice it needs. But I've got a friend called David, who I've known since I was a child. Can I send it off to David? So that's the link of where I came in contact with David. And I think David was a bit slow to react at first but then he did come back to me and basically said yeah I think I can do something with this. So did David then go away and write it and then present you with the book or were you very involved at every stage? I think to be honest what David said was he thought he could maybe adjust it slightly though it'd be a bit more readable because I wrote in a diary it was very linear it started there with the worst day of your life and it's I suppose evolving is a good word but we were on a path and as the path went along it became a bit clearer and he said I think I can work with that to mix it up to make it more readable

for the reader I mean in my head I still can't relate to the book I was going to ask you yes because because I think linear about it I've gone from there point a to point b I'm still at b and to read the book I could read it and yeah that those are my words that's everything about our life but to have it mixed up I understand it just makes it a bit lighter right I think that's such about our life. But to have it mixed up, I understand it just makes it a bit lighter. Right. I think that's such a profound point because it's very hard to write grief in a way that people can take it. And I think this book is the closest I've ever got to reading that. But I know that you wrote me a letter ahead of doing this recording and Colin it was such a beautiful letter no one's ever done that for me before and you wrote what your failures

were that we were going to talk about you also gave me a playlist of music to listen to which I adored and found really helpful and we'll talk a bit about that. But you wrote at the beginning of that letter, if I've talked, it seems to make other people uncomfortable and us as a family not understood. So is there an element that it's so difficult to convey what Morgan's loss is to you? I think everybody wants to be kind and by moving us along maybe it will make it better in a way or they don't know how to quite react and the best thing to do is obviously bring you to the pub and buy you a drink yeah and you'll get over it it's an old Irish way it's you'll be fine But for you to talk about it, it makes people uncomfortable.

And you realize there's never an opportunity for you to say, yeah, let's talk about it. There never is. You're at the weekend. Everybody wants to be happy. Or you're at a social event. People want to be happy. When do you talk to somebody about what you're feeling? And I think that's where you feel a bit alienated because you go along with it.

You're there smiling with them. You're there enjoying in with them. But deep down, you can't tell anybody. Their kindness is boxing you in, in a way. Very, very isolating. In a crowd of happy people. I know it's been said before, but that's sort of how it felt.

You also wrote in my letter that there was a stage where people said to you when you were writing your diary and when the book was being done, oh, it must be so cathartic. And you wanted to punch them on the nose. Yep. How do you feel about that now? It's just certain words. I think it's just like the off-the-shelf word to use, cathartic. I've heard so many little pop stars or actors on TV talking about, I had a cocaine addiction for 12 months and I came off it

and I've written a book and it feels so cathartic. And you think, am I joining that kind of catharsis that that's what we're going through I think it's such a cliche I hate cliches but the reality is it was cathartic you know it's just one of those things in life where you just kind of take a check on yourself and go okay but I think what you're getting at is like when someone says it's cathartic without really thinking about the meaning of the word because cathartic in some respects implies that it's done you've got it out of your system and now you feel okay but actually i think what you make so profoundly and painfully clear is that your grief is never going to be done

no it's your life it's part of us yes yeah part of us as a family we got our new family Yes. Yeah, part of us as a family. We've got our new family. It's really weird. I remember talking to Connor and Eamon not long after Morgan died, and I said, we've got every excuse now to have a shit life. You can blame everything from here on,

what's gone wrong with your life in the future on this, or we have a good life. And that's our battle. And touch wood, my boys are doing good. We're doing good, but I want my boys to have a good life. We were a happy family. Again, it's one of those sayings, did you come from a happy family? Yes, my children came from a happy family.

We haven't got the full mix of our happy family anymore. So does that mean that Connor and Eamon cannot come from a happy family because they still do yes I want them to be successful they're still from me and Sue they've still got everything they did have except we're missing one piece which is Morgan do you appreciate it when someone says I'm so sorry they'll mean that because they do feel sorry but then I have to reply to that saying that's okay and I feel almost I'll make an excuse for it so in a way it's really hard to take a compliment or somebody being nice to you because you have to answer it it's a bit like the Irish way of thanking you for the thank you card it's something Colin said just before we started recording actually I'm just I'm worried you're

going to be too nice to me yeah I'm not used to it okay yeah tell us about Morgan because I've had the joy of reading this book and the joy of meeting Morgan through the page it feels like he comes across so vibrantly and as such an amazing young man but I would just love you to tell us about him he was a fun guy as a child he was fun he was always the funny one he was never successful he was never as in top of the class the person everybody elevated to to be a role model he was always fun he knew how to make people like him I know you talk a lot about people pleasing but Morgan was that person he knew how to get people around him and if things went a bit I don't know I suppose when people come and go as

young people he'd always move on to the next crowd he always knew how to move socially he got into football he basically got dropped from the football team because he wouldn't practice because he couldn't be asked to. He went on to rugby and had a great time there. And then he found music. But he was always meeting people and he always loved everything he did. It was almost like the new best thing, a little bit like Toad of Toad Hall. It was always the new greatest thing.

He made people laugh. He had a girlfriend at one stage for a long time, Ellie, and that came to a natural end when she was going to go to uni and Morgan decided he wanted to go to music college. So he had a long-term love affair, I suppose, as a young man. And I'm really glad that he had that part of his life. And then, of course, he went on to his mates at the weekend drinking beer football nightclubs girls legendary nights out he was just living life and it was actually one of claire's articles in the paper and he said the tragic case of morgan hair and again words i thought morgan's not tragic

nothing about his life was tragic he was having a great time until an event happened that stopped everything. So up until that time, there was no tragedy. Everything was good in his life. He was doing everything right to have a good life, and it was taken from him. So I don't consider him tragic. I just consider him a man, as he was then, having a great life. That gives me something. Yes, of course, the consequences can be tragic

for the people left behind, and he wasn't. Exactly, yeah. I don't know about your belief system, but I wonder if you ever think, I wonder if there was something in Morgan where he felt he needed to live life to the fullest that's another cliche I'm sorry but he needed to soak up the enjoyment and the joy and the love while he was here somebody else said that to me do you think that his time was done

and no no I really don't I just think nuts and bolts of it is there was one person with a knife who made a choice that night that you know impacted on Morgan's life I don't see a line of pointers or signs I mean I can look back at a time we went to Warwick Castle there was an ice skating rink at Christmas. We were all in as a family. I mean, Eamon was skating with the penguin to help me stand up. So I suppose Morgan would have been about 11 and Connor would have been about 13. And for some reason, there was a man, a very big man, who was out of control on his skates. And in slow motion, as I looked across, he was out of control, but also really going fast.

And he couldn't stop. And out of all the people in that ice skating rink he hit Morgan and it spoilt our night but that fucking idiot it was a man with all those little children on the ice game had an accident he was being zany I thought why Morgan I think Sue said it on that night why was it Morgan that got picked out so he ended up in the St John's ambulance having to sort him out. So what was a good night out became a real downer. But it wasn't his fault. And I could draw similarities to that. But I don't think so.

I just think that it is clearly just a decision of somebody. Yeah. But it has gone through my mind yes yes and i can also understand that actually if you did go down that route it would drive you mad in a way you sort of need to accept that it is what it is yeah and nothing beyond that which is so horrendous in its own way yeah i was raised a catholic my children were all raised Catholics. A lot of people bestowed platitudes on you that he's in a better place now, or God's looking after him, or doesn't it give you comfort to know that he's... No, no. And it really made me question everything. And I've gone down a route of almost being scientific about things, that just saying, no, this is the reasons why. And it's just somebody was violent with a knife. It wasn't just the knife, it was violence. I mean, the one thing I do really hate watching the news

is just Morgan was a victim of knife crime. Now he was a victim of somebody violent. I mean, I personally, I've got a banger drum about this culture of categorizing violence into different sections. Also saying knife crime, there's no subject to that sentence. There's no individual. No. And actually your point is it was a violent individual repeat offender who, by the way, I'm deliberately choosing not to give that person a name okay he has one and you're welcome to use it yeah i just feel that i want to use all the names in this episode for you and your family yeah yeah i'll get that yeah yeah he was a nobody but he was a disturbed person i did a like a video diary

thing which i'll put out into the community where we live and I'll describe him as a caged animal like a lion or a tiger in a zoo my reaction to him was do we blame the zookeeper for letting him out or do we blame the zookeepers for allowing the zookeeper to let the dangerous animal out because that's what he was and unfortunately a lion or a tiger even if you're a vegan they will eat you yeah they don't need any empathy they will eat you and that's where I felt that I'll say Noam Declan he was a human being but he was violent he was vile and he had problems but he was possibly let down by the system because he wasn't controlled that's an extraordinarily impressive leap of empathy that you make. And you have given me permission to read a passage from this book about a son.

And it comes on page 32, and it is where you see Morgan for the first time after he's died. Morgan is lying down. He has a type of shroud around him and only his face is visible. It is very swollen and bloated and badly bruised on one side. He looks almost distorted. You wish it wasn't him, but it is. you wish it wasn't him, but it is. You both stand staring at him, unable to console him or yourselves. It's hard to know how long you're there, and when you walk out, it's at the angle of people battling through a storm. Reaching the reception room, you're proud of yourself because you're a

man of your word, and you promised you wouldn't cry in front of him that you'd be strong for him and you were you walk 10 paces along the corridor and then you break down you cry so hard it moves the air around no knot, no glue. The rip in you is unmendable. Colin, I'm so sorry. And that rip, it just struck me as such a powerful metaphor. Does it resonate with you? Is that how it feels, an unbendable tear? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you hear that passage, does it feel like you?

Yeah. In my head space now, I'm back there. Mm-hmm. yeah in my head space now it's i'm back there hi i'm matt lewis historian and host of a new chapter of echoes of history a ubisoft podcast brought to you by history hit join me me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History,

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or on Apple Podcasts. Your letter to me included these three points that we're going to talk about that aren't quite failures because that's not really an appropriate construct for this kind of conversation. that's not really an appropriate construct for this kind of conversation. And the first point that you made to me was that your role was to keep your family on track and be a good dad. And you asked me to listen to this song that I'd never heard before, Exodus by Jay-Z and Son Kill Moon, which is this beautiful elegy that explores the specific grief experience by bereaved parents. And it has this chorus that goes, for all bereaved parents, I send you my love. Parents survive their children. It's a pain very few know of. I'm so glad you gave me that song because sometimes things can't be conveyed in words, but they can be conveyed in music.

Yes, very much so. So tell me why you wanted to talk about that role of attempting to keep your family on track and be a good dad connor asked me if i wanted to go to a gig which was the band's son kill moon well the lead singer is a chap called mark koslek and he was doing his own gig at the comedy club in birmingham the glee club said do you fancy coming, Dad? I went, yeah, okay, then we'll have a night out. I hadn't been talking to Connor. Connor was a bit distant and I could look after Eamon because he was 14 and I could converse with him really well

and help him. Where Connor was, as I say, distant, didn't want my help or didn't need my help, but he wouldn't talk really to me. he was gigging he'd done some gigs he'd gone on a European tour he'd come back I was really proud of what he was doing but he still wasn't talking other than just basics of the day so when he asked me to do a fancy night out I thought yeah great we'll go out this was probably about eight or nine months after well would have been three months after the trial or two months after the trial so we went into the gig and he said oh be a load of middle-aged men in here i was a slag off and i'm like okay and he was right but connor really liked his work his words and i'm like okay and this song came on and the glee club is a really small intimate venue so

like the stage is a very low rise stage probably about two or three foot tall and we're three foot away from the stage and he starts singing this song and i've never heard this song and i don't think connor had either and like it doesn't give up it keeps going and he's talking about nick caveson who died and he's talking about Daniel Steele's son who died and it's not his grief he's talking about other people's and it's very empathetic to those people and I started crying but not crying in a you know whole body crying just tears were flowing and I looked and Connor was the same and then I realized that Connor was feeling what I felt, so therefore maybe we don't need to talk, maybe we just are. And it was a moment that in that context just made sense to me that maybe I'm trying too hard.

He's OK. He knows we're there for him and he's fine with that. God knows what Mark Osleck thought. I mean, that's all you want, isn't it? When you're an artist, you want your art to connect with someone well maybe thought it was that bad you're a bit off key mate yeah I just couldn't believe the subject matter you're just like I didn't expect this and again it's that somebody pressing the buttons and you don't expect it

yeah but it was a moment it was a a genuine moment where me and Connor connected through music. Is there a sense when you meet someone or you read a story about someone who has lost their child that there's a deep connection there that no one would ask for, but it's there? Yes. I mean, I've been helped by other parents who've lost children. I mean, one lady that really helped me was a lady called lynette whose daughter was killed she sent me a copy of the mapper reports so i could compare understand what these reports were the mapper is a police agency isn't it we go down a route it gets very complicated all these acronyms i wrote it down yeah it's multi-agency public protection

arrangements which basically is prisons probation and police so they're all supposed to connect of all these acronyms. I wrote it down somewhere. Yeah, it's multi-agency public protection arrangements, which basically is prisons, probation and police. So they're all supposed to connect so they are all aware of the overall picture. That's their job. But in fact, in their case, that didn't happen. And she sent me a copy of her report about her daughter's killer.

And for me to just give me a little bit of understanding, which was a practical, massive help. But I also knew she was on my side there's the other lady from the Moira fund a lady called Bea who lost a daughter and she helps other bereaved parents with practical help these people all want to help each other it's like a little network that you don't know is there and suddenly I don't know it happens, but you just seem to make contact with these people. It's like a sixth sense that you come in contact. How do you resurrect yourself as a father after the worst thing that has happened to you,

where your child has been killed and you couldn't have done anything, but is there part of you that's like, I should have been there to protect him? Yeah, naturally there's going to be that, but he was man at 20 he was a man he was out with his mates going to football I couldn't have been there if he was a young a child yes now I can't do that and I can't beat myself up for it either I mean the hardest thing was saying to my two children go and live maybe we should hang on to you are you going out tonight where are you going who are you going to be with what time do you want me to pick

you up what no we had to say you've got to live I mean when Connor was doing his gigs we didn't know where he was he would go on the train came to london when we had that one incident there me sue and amy were at home and there was a man in the london tubes with a knife and we were straight away sue was straight away connor and i remember thinking no no no it can't happen twice but we did text him and he didn't reply classic kid yes yeah but then he was like what you mean he was just like totally dismissive of it and i thought you were right connor you were right you've got to live we can't restrict your life in case it happens again and it's not but conversely when you get another parent who all good intentions he's talking crap in a pub or wherever you are socially.

And they go, I was really worried about my daughter or myself. I'm not happy until the home. And you're thinking to yourself, are you talking to me? It won't happen to you. You can't think like that. You can't live your life thinking. I mean, you don't, when you leave the house, think, is this going to be the last time?

You just can't live like that. And life is for living. And that's my my i don't know i'm not a big person but i want my family to have a life somebody did actually say this to me about us moving home you can't move home because your son's buried in none and it was like it's morgan's grave and anchor that we can't leave the anchor or pull away from the anchor i thought that's not fair he's gone he's dead but we've got to live and how is amon doing how old is he now he's 20 oh my goodness yes that must have been very difficult because he was a teenager yeah when it happened so

you've spoken about connor and that sense of silent connection that you had at that concert what was it like as a father with Eamon in the aftermath of I felt the need to look after his interests and with all good intentions schools are not very good and I don't mean this in a terrible way, but it's a class thing, not an individual thing. And Eamon needed real care and they got things wrong. And I knew I had to be there to help. We muddled our way through, but it wasn't, there was no perfect system to help a child who'd gone through what he'd gone through. I don't think there's a box to tick for a school.

And that's where they probably struggled. saying they were terrible but some things were bad when he left school went on to sixth form college a different college I think that liberated him into freedom from the past so he went from sort of like being an average pupil to his grades really went up when he went to sixth form which we were really pleased about we were really shocked that he's actually performed better at sixth form and now he's at uni he's shocked himself how well he's done so far in his second year so he said he's sort of on for a 2-1 so he's gone from average to up so he is pushing himself and he's determined to succeed. Do you think that's partly because when he changed schools,

he was no longer immediately identified as the person whose brother was killed? Yeah, exactly. Because Connor went to the school, Morgan went to school, and he's the third. So it wasn't his identity, possibly. What advice would you give to any parent listening to this who is either going through something similar or really struggling with a teenage child? That's a good question. Colin's like, I wouldn't give any advice.

That's probably going to be my answer. You've got to treat them as an individual and everything you know no longer applies. I think you've literally got to go back to ground zero and say, how do I approach this? Because we changed. Our whole outlook on life has changed. So our children must feel the same. It makes perfect sense. Do you at home talk about Morgan, have pictures of Morgan? Is he still very present in that respect?

Yeah. There's loads of pictures around the house that were there anyhow because I've always had a really keen interest in photography used to take a lot of polaroids so i've got loads of pictures of the children and polaroid in frames which were there before morgan died bizarrely enough i re-bought a polaroid camera for amon after morgan died i thought maybe it might help him to express himself just taking taking pictures and whatnot. I don't know why I thought it. I've got no reason for doing it. But Eamon did.

He used to take lots of polaroids. So there's always lots of pictures in the house. And then, of course, we did an exhibition of Morgan's graffiti, which was my proudest moment as a father. Probably to the world, it was nondescript. But to me, it was the best thing ever. So we put all his art all his friends were there and it was really a graffiti scene not there to please the general public but it was wonderful

but we got quite a few of the canvases and they're up in the house he's our which I really slagged off by the way did you yeah like what are you doing spending all your money on paint and like what you won't even paint your bedroom he was so talented though i've seen his he was good i mean he loved what he was doing again he was never the best people were better than him but he just wanted to be part and have a good time i mean there's so many photographs that he used to take of his artwork but when you look at them you realize he was documenting his day he was with his friends there might be a few dogs involved, as in pets, beers, spray painting, and just a day of fun. So all the pictures weren't over-the-top

arty. They're just, that was my day. That was a fun day. And this is at a time, which was only a few years ago, but mobile phones weren't so good then with the pictures. So he had a DSLR camera. So he'd go out and bring a camera with him for his day. So that's why it's all documented as well as it is. It's so interesting that you have that in common as well, the documentation. Yeah. It's clearly important for you. Yes.

I don't know why, but I've always done it. I've always taken photographs from 15, 14 years old. And kept a diary. Yes. You're an HGV driver, aren't you? Yes. What's that like? Because you have so much time, I imagine, just in your own thoughts.

Yes. Now, that could be a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah. I'll be honest, it's perfect for me. Basically, I've got an access to music because I can bring my music on my phone, so I've got good stereo systems in the truck. There's a lot of waiting around sometimes when you go to places, so I'd bring my laptop with me so I could type up my diaries.

So I did a lot of my work in work time. It gives you time to think, and you can think out loud without distraction. Because I think I had so much going through my head away from the family for me to try and get my head straight and where where is this going how do I get from A to B kind of thinking all the time and actually time on my own was really crucial for me and listening to music I don't know I don't know it soothes the soul it does something I mean Morgan was a player. I've started playing Morgan's bass now because, after all, I sort of feel like I've wound down my brain.

But now the only thoughts can be bad thoughts of things to do. So I feel the need to learn something new, have new thoughts. I mean, again, I'm not telling anybody what to do. But for me, I was so possibly I've got PTSD, which if that means reoccurring I was so possibly I've got PTSD which if that means reoccurring thoughts yes I've got that intrusive thoughts yes I'll get those but also I think well if I learn new things and genuinely learn new things well then I'm reprogramming my brain and I'm not trying to be an oracle of wisdom or advice but I've started playing Morgan's bass

and to learn to play again has been quite hard, something new. I've teamed up with one of my best friends, Tam, and Morgan's best friend, Craig. So Craig drums, Tam's on guitar, I'm playing bass. We play once a week at the recording studios. So it's something new to learn, and it's given me freedom, headspace. I'm very struck there by that phrase you used

about winding down your thoughts was that a response to the grief that you just you had to empty your head yes because there's too much yeah you got your head's going to explode I mean I found getting Jimmy my dog springing spaniel absolutely true hero of this book to be honest, he's an absolute idiot believe me but getting out every morning for an hour's walk it clears my head just gets things in gear for me and again just try and empty out all those thoughts because there's only so much you can take in and I was advised to write things down maybe it might help you from olivium one of my first counsellors i encountered from victim support and i thought yeah okay i'll do that so writing it down was a way of offloading it and just trying to keep busy but also mentally busy your second fail not fail that's

how you put it in the letter which i think is is so brilliant, is that these are your words. At no stage did I ever think I was right. I was prepared to fail at every meeting. So you mean like every meeting with the authorities. What if everything had gone right? I would have accepted that. That was my quest to understand what happened. Yes.

So take us back and tell us what you actually did, because this is a process of years and years. As you mentioned earlier, you had no legal aid, you had no solicitor, you did this on your own with Sue, your amazing wife by your side. Oh, yes. And we'll get on to Sue, don't you worry. Sue sounds like a living legend. And there was this fire within you that was like, no, there has to be some kind of, not even answer here, but some sort of explanation. What was the driving force behind what you did? Declan, who killed my son when he was 15 years old, killed a man. I think he was in his late 30s, early 40s. He basically jumped on his head and attacked him very violently.

So he had been sent to prison as a youth and had only been let out three or four months before he killed my son. Well, that just begs questions. This is why? I can't get my head around why he's done it for the second time. So it was straightforward. And what I learned very early on is ask a general question, you'll get a general answer. So you have to ask a very specific question to get a specific answer. And some of the questions we asked or I asked were really crap, really awful, so off the key.

But some of them were really good. But the problem was before the trial, the police wouldn't answer any of the questions because you're in a process where they can't right so in fairness my diary when i was writing it i actually in my head was thinking you know the haynes car manuals no you're not you don't do car repairs elizabeth i'm sorry yeah they just dissect a car so the different little bits of the vehicle you can find out how to repair it. And that's what, in my head, what I was doing with the diary,

saying how do you go through the legal system? How do you go through this system? Step by step, this is what it's like. So we had to wait, which ended up being three months after the trial. And when was the trial, sorry? It was in the May into June. Of 2016. 16.

So you've already had to wait several months for that to happen? Yeah so six seven months so those questions we asked a month after Morgan's death we had to wait till after the trial which we didn't get the answers till the September so we had a meeting and we went to the meeting and there was a chief superintendent was there and gave us the answers to the questions we'd asked nine months previous one of the questions was about had he offended after being released because we heard that he was offending and the answer was yeah he'd offended three times but not charged what were they and that's when we were told that he'd attacked somebody with some snooker balls in a sock

the first day of being released from prison and put the man in hospital. He'd threatened somebody with a knife a week before Morgan's death and still no action taken. But because these victims were unwilling to press charges, there was nothing the police could do. Now, I wasn't happy with that. I wasn't happy with that answer.

And that's where I got the media through Claire and then ended up being on the BBC saying, I'm not happy with this answer. Can we push it forward? And that's where I went on to meet the police and crime commissioner, Warwickshire. I voiced my concerns to him on camera and he said, yeah, I'll look into it. So that started the ball rolling of finding out these three events. I voiced my concerns to him on camera and he said, yeah, I'll look into it. So that started the ball rolling of finding out these three events. This is a very long story.

Well, it's fascinating. And I think what kind of struck me clear and hard reading the book and then reading around all of this is the endless energetic resources that are required of someone to take on the forces of the British quote-unquote justice system. The bureaucracy, the logistics, the admin, the way that it felt like you were stonewalled again and again and again by all these different layers of management and authority and the way that most people I think 98% of people would have been put off and just thought I don't have the strength for this I'm reeling from grief like that's where I need to put my strength and they didn't know what they were up against they didn't know that Colin Hare wasn't one of those people that you had this dogged determination and you just kept on you just kept on kept on kept on what was fueling you because you don't strike me as an angry person but i imagine there were

moments that i would have felt pure rage at what someone was not telling me i was angry at various stages but i didn't feel the person you were talking to was their fault. It's really hard to be angry with somebody who's been nice to you. Yes. It is a really good barrier. And then what you find with the authorities is because they move around so much, they weren't in the position of that job at the time when what you're talking about happened. So it's a really tricky thing to negotiate. I mean, my journey journey i've got facts and

figures i could speak all day about them but it's really hard thing to sort of in a nutshell work out where things go wrong but actually everything is so simple they did mess up in doing their job but the people we're talking about no longer work there and the people who you're talking to are covering over for the people who no longer work there so you're not important until you can get through that barrier and I'm too bloody stubborn not to get through that barrier did you ever worry that you were taking it too far that you were becoming too obsessed or did Sue ever worry about that I did it in secret did you yeah because Sue was working she'd be in the office at work i start work at one o'clock

in the afternoon so i take the dog out i'd come back and i'll be on the computer working out stuff or emailing or doing all those things in my own time that didn't involve the family because i felt the guilt of doing it because i knew what i was saying was we've got to have a good life. But secretly, I'm digging here. I'm really going back. I've got to do this. But I don't want to drag the family back to the grief. Because I want them not to do what I'm doing.

But I need to do this. I think Sue understood when I'd say what I've come up with. And she'd be like,, oh no, what now? But that's essentially how I did it. Have you always been that person who needs an answer if something seems unfair or unexplained? Yes. It's got to be right. It's got to be fair. You can't be unjust. No, it should be right. be right so where are we now with it because i know you had a letter that was very important to you which you quoted when you wrote to me yes tell us about that i mean after umpteen meetings which is too long to go into now but the end result is warwickshire police with mapper the

multi-agency public protection are using mor Morgan's case as part of their training and I really like the terminology that they put that Morgan's case will become part of the professional memory of the force that is a good phrase what I liked about that is as I said before when everybody moves on jobs in a year's time that Morgan's name will be in writing in their training. That gives me some hope that maybe things can get better. Therefore, have I succeeded? I think I have. And that gives me joy.

Say joy, it gives me, I don't need to do any more. Yes. It gives you peace. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what it gives. But it's not earth shattering. I mean, I said to David, it's not like you can run up those steps like Rocky did in the film and put your arms up in the air and scream that you've won.

You got it right. I haven't got that. But it's content. I'm just content. I don't have to do anymore. Is part of the reason you wanted your diary to be a book. Does that share something with the fact that Morgan's death is now part of the police's professional memory, that it's important to have him in writing? Yes. I mean, I did write it down, if I can quickly.

Please do. It was my Italian friend, Vincenzo, and he quoted some Latin to me. Now, with my Brummie accent, I'm not going to repeat the Latin. But he said, spoken words fly away and the written words remain oh that is so beautiful colin that's everything i believe i don't have children and yearn for that and part of the reason i write books is that so I have a legacy. A legacy. I knew that was coming. Yes, yes.

And that's exactly how I feel. That's so beautiful. Spoken words fly away. The written words remain. Thank you to your Italian friend, Vincenzo. We all need a Vincenzo in our lives. We do. He's a great cook as well.

Is he? Oh my gosh the perfect person is he single no kidding there's no pat would be on your heels colin let's talk about your third conversation point and this just really really hit me somewhere very deep it's about a question that so many people get asked how many children do you have and you wrote in this letter to me that you're often asked that by someone who doesn't know you and when you were once asked that you said two and you write I felt shit if I gave the detail they feel shit Sue told me she uses three children but two living do you use that phrase now I'll be honest that only

happened to me for that example about two weeks ago when I wrote it for you I'd gone to the bank and I was transferring some money and the assistant there was just doing her job trying to probably direct some marketing or some business towards them about maybe children my age group have I got university funds or whatever and she asked me how many children have you got and I was like oh shit she was a nice lady it wasn't nasty it was just a question and so I didn't want to make her feel bad but I didn't want to have to explain but i didn't want to lie but i also denied that morgan's ever lived yes saying oh crap yeah so i spoke to sue about it when i got back and she explained to me what she uses three children two living and she said she'd

even been to the hospital and the doctor had asked her how how many children have you got? And she used that example. And the doctor actually said, sorry, what, what, what? So she told him that Morgan had died. And then he felt bad. But if you can't take a hint, you probably deserve. Yes. You shouldn't feel bad then that they feel bad because you've tried your best. Yes.

You've tried to, if they've got any intelligence to work it out. But if they can't, you shouldn't feel bad because you've tried your best yes you've tried to if they've got any intelligence to work it out but if they can't you shouldn't feel bad for telling them i think it works on two levels and i think it's not your responsibility to process someone else's emotion yes but you do feel that yeah i don't want to go around telling it a lot woe is me kind of thing because i don't want to live my life like that but when somebody asks you a question you can really throw you out and so i think that's the perfect answer and again it's whose idea not mine and if you do now say that and the if the person you're talking to hears it and says oh i'm so sorry and then wants to know what happened? Or do you want to get into that? I suppose it depends on the context.

It does, yeah, on the day. But I've got no problem talking about Morgan. But do I really want to talk to a stranger about who's never met me, doesn't know any about the story? I don't need to do this. And you don't really need to know. But if you want to know, I'll tell you. But is it necessary?

It's part and parcel of life, life i suppose that we have to deal with dealing with people yes you are the father of three and you always will be yeah i want to talk about sue because she i mean she comes across as such a like vibrant strong force in About a Son. And I just love Tutterbits from the page. But it must be one of the hardest things to keep a marriage together after this happens. How difficult was it? Difficult. I remember at the time Googling it and it just said a huge percentage of couples split up

after these kind of tragic events so i thought right okay we're against it then so i need to do my best maybe but the truth was sometimes there were different phases where certainly the very early days sue was broken beyond broken because sue's always been a strong character i've always everything we've ever done I'm the dreamer and she's the practical one and suddenly she wasn't practical she was just broken and I was looking after her in a way and it wasn't my Sue anymore and I was I was worried not only had lost my son maybe I've lost my wife and I didn't know how to do it I could sort of deal with Eamon could sort of deal with Connor in a way but Sue I couldn't wife and I didn't know how to do it. I could sort of deal with Eamon, could sort of deal with Connor in a way,

but Sue, I couldn't fix her and I couldn't help her and she didn't want to be fixed and she didn't want to be helped. That was really dark times, but at that same time, it was really weird that Morgan's friends, there was a collective of friends that just wouldn't leave us alone. They'd taken us out. We went to the football match.

There's footage of us at the football match at the Nuneaton Borough and the chanting songs for Morgan. And we're there only probably a week after Morgan's died. And we're clapping and we're laughing with them. That's not what we really felt. But actually, while you were there, while you were with them, that's exactly what you felt. You were feeling some form of joy and help and love and it was a you know surreal moment or

whatever it was we were in the moment but Sue was laughing and they just would not back off they just kept us going in a way and I suppose it took months and months where it had to end we couldn't keep that going but we still had a core element of Morgan's friends Joe, Craig, Dave, Cooper there was loads of them I'm gonna miss somebody out there but there were loads of them who just were looking after our interests and they were missing Morgan and it lifted Sue but I couldn't lift Sue right that's so hard but I think you said something so important there which is that emotions aren't linear or chronological and you can be feeling one huge all-encompassing emotion and within that there can be pockets of a different kind

of emotion yes and it doesn't deny the existence of the bigger one. No, that's exactly right, yeah. I mean, I remember that we went to the Mount St Bernard's, which was like a Catholic monastery, bit of peace and quite beautiful countryside. And I remember there was a Stations of the Cross sculptures, it was a monument. And there was one part where I'd taken Eamon off to take,

he was taking photographs and I was with him. And I walked back and Sue was there. And it was like a grotto of where Christ is taken off the cross and Mary's holding her son, her dead son and Sue was sat there and it still gets me now. I thought Sue hasn't got that, she can't hold her son because the authorities have taken that away from us. She can't hold her son because the authorities have taken that away from us. She was the mother. I was the father. I was the other one. But Sue could not do what was there in front of her.

And she sat there in silence. She didn't say anything. I think that was worse for me. That was a hard one. How are you both now? We're good. We still got that part of us, Morgan, but we've got the good, we've got Eamon, we've got Connor,

we've got the dog, we've got a house, we've got food. I mean, in some respects, you look at the news, which I try not to because it can get you down again if you're not feeling the best, but you look at what's going on in Ukraine and you feel like, are we just whinging about us because there are bigger events out there we are at the center of our own universe but there are bigger events there and we're doing good can you talk to each other honestly yes okay we can we do yeah she's always right listen I want to disagree with you but I can't because the impression I get

is that she is actually always right Sue if you're listening I'm totally on your side but what I will say though is the only time we ever agreed on a business proposition where Sue thought it was a good idea and it was my idea that was the worst business discussion because it didn't work so I've always used Sue as a springboard if she says it's not good I'll go by and come back to her and think no no I think this is good and she'll get okay then okay but the time we both agreed was the worst thing that's so interesting oh my goodness Colin I don't know how to bring this interview to a close because I don't think it's ever going to end for me

in the sense that everything you say will stay with me forever. Because you have such a beautiful stripped-back way of explaining huge things and huge feelings, and I can't thank you enough for that. How do you feel now after our conversation? It's nice to finally talk to people and for people to hear really what's gone on a little bit it's only a part of i do actually think the story is probably bigger than what it sort of could sound to people it touches so many different elements but it's so nice for morgan not to be forgotten I mean the biggest driver for me

as I spoke to David Whitehouse about it was at the end of the trial when we left the courthouse we were not happy with the sentences but they didn't really matter that much what they got because I'd never felt joy about it's great that they've been convicted it was we'd lost Morgan it wasn't our trial it was the Crown Prosecution's trial and we were part of it we never felt really that included because that question of what is justice that justice is for the Crown not for you the individual but as we left court in my head I got suppose an image but there were no press there there were no tv cameras there were no journalists asking for what we thought Morgan didn't matter because he was just another knife crime victim just another one another male and it felt like it didn't matter and I thought that was

my driver that his story needs to be told and that's probably where I got my energy from to go forward he does matter what do you think he'd be saying to you right now I could give you a really good example of that I remember back in the day we're going to put a shed in the back garden put a pool table put a little bar make like a garden bar yes don't bother dad just go to the pub and on that note Colin I'm going to not bother with any more of this and let just go to the pub and on that note colin i'm going to not bother with any more of this and let you go to the pub i can't thank you enough and i would also just like to say that this episode is for morgan hair ahizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist