How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - BONUS EPISODE! Mel Schilling: the MAFS dating expert on confidence, relationships and the secret to finding true love

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

TW: fertilityRegular listeners will know I'm a devoted watcher of Married At First Sight, so I squealed with joy when the brilliant Mel Schilling agreed to come on the pod. Not only is she one of Australia's foremost dating experts, but as a former psychologist and a specialist in human behaviour and performance, she's the perfect person to ask about how to find true love in the dating wilderness, how to feel more confident and what it's really like filming MAFS behind the scenes. And rest assured, I asked ALL OF THIS AND MORE.We also discuss how she only found the courage to pursue her passion later in life, why she dated 'all the emotionally unavailable men' in her 20s and 30s and her fertilty journey - please be aware, if you're currently going through a fertilty struggle yourself that you might find this part triggering (but you might also find it helpful - I know I did).I love Mel so much and she's even better in person. I hope you enjoy the episode, and then enjoy catching up with all the latest MAFS episodes, of course...--Mel's book, The C Word (Confidence): Make friends with fear and build confidence from the ground up, is available to buy here.--My new book, FRIENDAHOLIC: Confessions of a Friendship Addict, is out now and available to purchase here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodMel Schilling @mel_schilling1 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. My guest today has taught me so much despite the fact that until now I've never actually met her. Melanie Schilling is known to many of us as one of the therapists on Married at First Sight, the television program where experts match compatible strangers who then meet on their wedding day with fascinating and sometimes explosive results. Schilling has always been a comforting yet rigorously insightful expert on the couch. My favourite bits are generally when she calls out a man for his raging misogyny with calm yet lethal precision. She's been in the role since 2016 when maths launched in Australia. There's now an equally compelling UK version which regularly attracts a massive audience on Twitter as much as on TV. Schilling, a specialist in human behavior and performance,

has built a 20-year career as a therapist, business consultant, and leadership coach for high-performing people. Her book, the C-word, Confidence, Make Friends With Fear and Build Confidence From The Ground Up, was published last year. In it, she writes that confidence, courage, and competence have the capacity to shift us from I wish to I did. Mel Schilling, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much. I wished to have you on How to Fail, and I did, and now you're here sitting in front of me. You manifested this.

I did. I'm such a fangirl. I really, really am. I really am. And I was already from maths, but your book is brilliant and so full of practical compassion. And it's one of the few books that I have read for this podcast that it has exclusively garnered five-star reviews from readers. It's actually really impressive. And I wonder if I could start with that before peppering you with all the fangirl maths questions. That idea of moving from I wish to I did. If someone is listening right now and they're yearning for something, but they feel trapped in a place because of their own insecurity or self-doubt.

Difficult question. What one piece of advice would you give them? Start with the story you're telling yourself for me it all comes back to self-talk so if someone is sitting there immobilized with fear and feeling like they can't move forward taking a moment to just pause reflect and do a little bit of thinking about what am i saying to myself? What am I telling myself about what I can or can't do in this situation? What am I telling myself about what I deserve in this situation? What barriers am I putting there in front of myself? And more

often than not, it'll come back to a fear of one type or another. Maybe it's fear of rejection, fear of humiliation, fear of success even, which sounds strange, but it's often there in the mix as well. And if you can do some of that, and sometimes journaling is a really good way to tease this out and really get that self-awareness happening. Self-awareness has to happen first. really get that self-awareness happening. Self-awareness has to happen first. So if you can start to unravel the self-talk that's going on, then it really just becomes, well, not just, because it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy. It becomes a process of recognizing when that unhelpful voice is coming up, challenging it and changing it. You also write in the book about the power of that small word yet. And you recount

this story about how your daughter came back one day and she was two years old, I think at the time. And what did she say? She will love that you brought this up. Good. She sounds an incredibly wise guru. I do learn stuff from this kid. I really do. She had been at school, prep, what you guys call reception here. So she must've been four. She would have been four. And she said, mum, I learned all about the power of yet today. And I said, well, what's that? Tell me about that. I had no idea what she was talking about. I thought it was something else imaginary, you know, something she'd been playing. And she said, I don't say I can't climb the monkey bars. I say I can't climb

the monkey bars yet. And then she talked to me all about this, what I would call a frame or a perspective shift around I'm in the process of learning as opposed to I can't do it. Yeah. It's been an absolute game changer for me. So good. So good. I started doing that when I read it. And the other thing that I find helps is something I learned from a fitness instructor,

which is instead of saying, I have to do this, you can say, I get to do it. Yes. It's a privilege. I'm excited to do it. I love that. I use that too. Yeah. I do. I definitely use that one on myself to reframe things. It helps. So I want to talk a bit about your career

because you really implemented the things that you write about in the book in terms of your career, because you knew that you wanted this TV career potentially, and you were told a lot, no, weren't you? Absolutely. What kind of no's did you hear? Oh, not just no's. Of course, in the TV industry, a no is never a no because in the normal world, as I like to call it, the non-TV world, there's rules and regulations about the way you can recruit someone. You can't say we're looking for someone who is this tall or this colour or this orientation. You know, there's rules around that. But in telly, it is personal. Yes, that's so true. Yeah. Well,

the performing arts in general, you know, it's the same with stage, of course. So we're looking for someone who, you know, I guess is a character and therefore have these characteristics. So when you get a knockback from an audition or a screen test or a pitch, it's really hard to rationalize it out like you can in corporate or normal professional jobs where you can say, oh, it wasn't a good fit or the organization wasn't right for me because it necessarily is personal. So a lot of the knockbacks were personal. And, you know, it's an industry that doesn't pull any punches. No one's there to

wrap you up in cotton wool and look after you. It's just not built that way. It's really tough. And often there's an underlying subtext of who do you think you are? Well, that's how it feels anyway. You know, what right do you think you have yes to be standing here a little bit taller than everyone else yes it's so interesting to hear that that's a factor in australia as well oh yes very much so speak to anyone in who's been in the media industry in australia and probably other industries too. But tall poppy syndrome is something that I've absolutely experienced and continue to this day. And let's just say it's no accident that I now live in London. Okay. Good to know. You were also told that

you were quote unquote too much, which I think is a really interesting thing for us to speak about, because I feel that it's leveled at a lot of women, not just professionally, but also romantically. My experience of dating, and we're going to move on to that, don't you worry, in my late 30s was very much that I felt I was too much for some people. And I remember once there was a double-decker bus that drove past me and it was an advert for a makeup brand called Il Makiage. and it said maybe you're not too much maybe they're not enough and i thought that was so good i then literally went onto their website and bought their foundation concealer and fyi it's really good not an ad but it is really good love it and that reframing was very helpful for me but that must have been horrible to hear that you were quote

unquote too much and that goes right back to childhood. You know, I mean, I'm from a really supportive family. This is not, you know, anything negative about my family, but I think they certainly looked at me as if to say, just come back to earth. You're a dreamer. I would often get, you're a dreamer. You know, I had these big dreams and FYI, fast forward, I'm now living them day to day. Like I really am in all seriousness

living the exact life that I wanted to live when I was a kid. I took a very roundabout way to get here. But as that kid, I was the kid full of dreams and ideas. And I had this experience that I've now taken and I use with my clients and I call it a recognition fantasy. I'm not sure if I talk, I think I did talk about it in my book, but I love this idea and I often use it with people who are experiencing imposter syndrome. One of the common characteristics of imposter syndrome is the idea of having an exposure fantasy. So it's that fearful, idea of having an exposure fantasy. So it's that fearful, catastrophizing thinking, but in a daydream form where you imagine yourself walking into that meeting, opening your mouth to start speaking and nothing comes out. You go bright red, you start sweating, everyone laughs at you,

someone speaks over you, someone mansplains and you walk out. Yes. And so the idea that we can flip that and create recognition fantasies, because this is what I organically did as a kid. I would be as a kid walking along the street and would fantasize, would imagine that a Hollywood producer would step out in front of me and discover me and put me in the next movie. Or I'd be in my dance class at the back and they'd say, Mel, come to the front. Everybody follow Mel. Or I'd be in a meeting once I got into corporate and everyone would say, watch Mel, do what Mel does. This was the recognition fantasy. And I felt quite embarrassed about that. Particularly, I guess, being within the Aussie culture where you don't brag. I know, I guess that's similar here. Yeah.

We don't brag, do we? I think Aussies and Brits are probably quite similar. I think our American friends are much more comfortable with it. Yes. That's also fascinating. I always remember growing up and taking in the message that to be spoiled was almost the worst thing that you could be. So not to be humble, to have too much

attention, to let it go to your head, all of those phrases. And I love what you're saying about the reclamation of that, that actually you can imagine yourself being recognized for skills that you might well already possess. And it's not wild fantasy and it doesn't make you arrogant. It's actually a necessary course correction. Absolutely. I love that as a course correction, because when you're having these exposure fantasies, they're incredibly negative and self-destructive. And this is not woo-woo stuff. This is based on science. So all of my training, so what we didn't have in the introduction was that I was a psychologist also for 20 years. I don't talk a lot about that in public because I've left that part of my career behind

for reasons we might talk about in another podcast. Okay. Or maybe this one. No, I'm very interested in that. I mean, suddenly my ears are pricked up. I think we will get there. Okay. Just because you're you. You don't look old enough to have had a 20-year career in your past.

But tell us about that experience and why you did leave it behind. past. But tell us about that experience and why you did leave it behind. Fast forward to 2016. So around the time I'm starting on maths and, you know, we are all of a sudden in the public eye. And at that time in Australia, there were really no other psychologists on TV. So John and I were the only ones. There was one or two others that would occasionally pop up on a morning show, but they'd be very clinical in the advice that they'd offer. And so here we had, for the first time ever, someone who had a professional career putting themselves into this crazy, unpredictable, quite frightening world of reality TV, where you cannot control the environment, you cannot control the reaction of not just the people

you're working with, but with the audience, you know, the outside, the social media and so on. And we came under fire year after year. And so the governing body received complaints about us. It was so tough having to go for a couple of years in a row before a board and sit there with, you know, five suits in front of me with very stern faces where I had to quite literally defend my integrity and my professional ethics because I was on that show. Did John have the same thing? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, we've both endured that. And so for me, stepping away from my registration as a psychologist was a personal choice. I didn't have to do that. So all of the complaints were disproven for John as well.

Like there was no merit to them, I think. And a lot of the complaints were from other professionals where people were saying, we're bringing the reputation of all psychologists into disrepute. So yeah. Yeah. I'm speechless. That must have been a very confronting time for you. And I think that you've proven beyond doubt that those complaints were entirely in the wrong because what you have done for the profession of psychology and psychotherapy is I think totally magnificent in that you and John have made it

mainstream. A lot of the therapeutic principles that I am lucky enough to know a little bit about, partly because I'm in therapy and think it's amazing. And partly because as you know, my best friend is a therapist. I see them being put into action in relationships. And yes, it's a splashy premise. people meet on their wedding day, but actually the experiment that they then go through has taught me so much about effective communication within a couple, about passive aggressive behavior, about accountability, about owning your own part in arguments. It's been amazing. so i just want to salute you for that thank you maths chat okay so we are lucky enough to be talking as married at first sight australia

the latest season is airing in the uk season 10 so the first week has just aired so i have very strong negative opinions about a man called harrison slightly less negative but still equally strong opinions about a man called Shannon. And I'm already invested. This is the thing that happens every single year. I look forward to it. I watch it with my best friend, Emma, aforementioned therapist. I love reality TV. She's not as obsessive as I am, but she loves therapy. So it's where we meet. It's like, it's the perfect central point of our Venn diagram. And we often watch it together if we happen to be in each other's company. But this last week, we've just been texting about it all the time.

And it's such a conversation generator. I absolutely love it. A few questions. Okay. The dinner parties. Yes. You, the experts, do you actually sit through the entire dinner party? You don't just get edited highlights reel?

Yes, we do. And what you're witnessing, you're witnessing without any preparation whatsoever. So they're your genuine reactions? They're genuine reactions. Wow. Yeah. That must take ages. And sometimes it can be eight to ten hours.

You know, some of those dinner parties go till late in the night. The commitment ceremonies can finish last season. The latest one I think was about 5 a.m. 5 a.m.? Yeah. The sun was coming up. Birds were singing. Yes.

Okay. No wonder people get heightened and emotional because they're tired as well. As are we. Yeah. You do a phenomenal job of not showing that. Surprisingly because our filters can't really stay there for that long. We get some of those more candid responses. Do you have any memorable couples from your time on maths,

UK and Australia, that really stick in the mind? For what reason? Any, any reason. And do you have any contestants that you still stay in touch with? I do. Yeah. So Jules and Cam, who you'll know of oh beautiful yes so beautiful from season six which of course was the breakthrough season here in the uk and really was in in australia as well i watched it before but fine i knew you were ahead of your time thank you they've of course gone on to get married and

they've got little Ollie, their little guy, and I do see them socially, which is beautiful because I almost forget that they were on the show because they've both created, you know, their own life post the show, which is unusual. There aren't too many people who move from being in that reality TV contributor mode to sort of having their own career, you know, in the media.

That's a really difficult transition to make. But Jules, I mean, she isn't just in the media. She has her own businesses as well. So we have a lot in common from the entrepreneurial side of things. Do you keep in touch with Domenica? I call her Dom, I'm sorry. Gorgeous Dom. Yes, we do.

We have some chats occasionally on social media. I mean, that's where everyone lives, isn't it? Former Hightail gas, so big fan of hers. Yes, we do. We have some chats occasionally on social media. I mean, that's where everyone lives, isn't it? Former How to Fail guest, so big fan of hers. Yes, of course. What about the villains whose names I can't remember? Who was the first cheating scandal? Yes. Was so scandalous.

Yes, it was. Are those cheating scandals, are they genuinely organic or do you think they're slightly egged on by the producers? Look, I mean, I'm pleased to say that I'm not privy to all of the behind the scenes stuff and I don't want to be because I see that as a very separate process from what we're there to do so happy to say that but I actually don't know but it's not scripted I mean that's probably one of the strongest messages that I can say and one of the questions I'm more often than not is, is it scripted? Is this just a scripted show? And it's genuinely not.

Why do you think it's so popular? In Australia, it's massive, isn't it? Isn't it like the most popular TV show? Yeah, it is. What do you think it is that people love about it? I think people have a very deep emotional connection with the show. And I think that's because they, well, it's a number of reasons. I think they often can see themselves or their relationships playing out on the screen. And that can lead to their own sort of aha moments and insight and sort of seeing someone's behavior. And then particularly if they can see us labeling the behavior and helping them kind of process it and unpack it can be really helpful. I think like you were saying before, it's a

conversation starter around some of these psychological concepts that aren't necessarily in the mainstream. I think that happens and I think there's a really positive conversation starter out there about mental health and about safety in relationships and equity and power and all of those things that play out in relationships. People can see it, then they can hear it being deconstructed and they can think about how that relates to their own life. Yes. I think that's one of the really powerful reasons. I think also, for me, it shows that relationships can go through the toughest times. And actually, it's extraordinary the amount of times if both parties are willing to do

the work that you can bounce back from that and become stronger than ever. I love that too. Yeah. And that's something I've learned absolutely throughout this journey. Because in the early days, if we had a couple get to the point where one says stay and the other one says leave, I would feel devastated for them because I think, oh no, someone's got one foot out the door and they have to stay. But so often they would say, okay, if we're going to take this seriously, we'll be here for another week and we'll actually

give it a red hot go, as we say down under. And if they put the effort in, it can turn around. And so I've seen that so many times now that I really do believe that, you know, in my own relationship, for example, if I got into a pickle like that, I wouldn't think this is the end of it. I'd think, okay, we need to do some work. Have you as experts ever, just for shits and giggles, matched two people who you know aren't really going to get on, but it's going to make entertaining television? Us experts have not. We definitely don't see that as our job. Well phrased. Because in both continents where I have the pleasure of doing this show,

we're all suckers for love. I know. You know, we're little cheerleaders there really wanting this to work, wanting these relationships to work. We're not there for the drama. That's the producer's job and that's the audience's job. But from our perspective, we want love. Final question before I move on to your failures. Have you noticed a difference in the UK and Australian attitudes to love? Yeah, it's a really tricky question and I'm

constantly trying to understand that. You know, I think when I came to the UK first, so this is my third season that I'm now filming in the UK, I think I had a lot of preconceived ideas and they were just stereotypes. The idea that the Brits have the stiff upper lip and you're going to be more conservative and reserved. I don't find that true really. I think perhaps in the UK version, maybe it takes a little bit longer to warm up and to drop the walls, but once they're there, once the ice is broken, there's very little difference I think between the, I was going to say love language, that means something different, but, you know, the way that people express their relationships in the UK and in Australia.

I think the key difference probably in terms of feedback I get from audience is a lot of people will say the Aussie one is a lot looser. So, you know, the Aussies let it all hang out and tend to be a lot of people will say the Aussie one is a lot looser. So, you know, the Aussies let it all hang out and tend to be a lot less filtered. Yes, totally. I find that so refreshing that so many of the Australian contestants can actually just instantly name their emotions. They say what they feel and what they're thinking

in a way that might take us a little bit longer. Okay, that's a good observation, the labelling feelings. That's probably just because they've had more seasons of maths to watch. Yes, probably. You're just doing a public service in your own country. I said it was my last question about maths, I lied. Have any of the contestants ever got really angry at you? Oh, yes.

Really? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Particularly, and I'll? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Particularly, and I'll say it again, in the early days. I think our contributors have become a lot more sophisticated over the years and they understand the process a little bit more. But, oh, absolutely, in some of the earlier seasons before they were really kind of, before they really understood

what the process was about and what our roles were, they would get very angry. So if we'd give them feedback, for example, they'd get angry and defensive and, you know, be sitting there giving us daggers throughout the commitment ceremony and that sort of thing. But these days I find in both countries they're a lot more open and actually really willing to participate in the discussion

with us now. So it's become really enjoyable. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. across the world. I'm Matt Lewis.

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It'd be your failure to act on your passion until later in life so tell us what prompted you to choose this as a failure yes going back to what we're talking about before with that decision point that I had in my life and it really was a crossroads moment where I decided to step away from being a registered psychologist. So I essentially had two careers here that I was engrossed in, one of being a psychologist and one of being a television personality. And really they're not just careers, they're both identities. And for me I got to the point where I had to separate them out and it was really, really difficult because, of course, not only had I spent 20 years as a psychologist,

I spent seven years at university learning how to become one. There was a huge investment on my part. And so a big chunk of my identity was tied up in calling myself psychologist. It was on my business card. There it is, my name, my title. And I was really perplexed about it because I knew that if I spent another year continuing to be registered as a psychologist and therefore needing to comply with all the rules and regulations whilst being in this unpredictable reality TV world, that it would take its toll personally. The stress was incredible. So those two years of having to have lawyers and all that legal support and writing reports, pages and pages of reports defending my ethics and so on.

You know, it was very, very stressful. It really took its toll. And so I did, I got to that moment of crossroads and a beautiful mentor of mine, Sandy Ray is her name, and she's an incredible senior psychologist in Australia who also does some TV. And she said to me, five or 10 years down the track, looking back, if you walk away from one or the other, which would you be most pissed off about? And that made it so clear for me. If I gave up my TV career to just do my psychology work full time, I would have the worst FOMO you could imagine. And that was really, really telling. And so that's what, this is only four years ago. So it's really recent. And so it took me to that point of having

absolute clarity of this is actually my purpose. Yes, I needed to be a psychologist in order to get here, in order to have the platform and to have the voice and have the expertise to share. But this is my purpose, reaching as many people, millions of people, as opposed to just one-on-one. Yes. Was there parts of you, because I feel like we're quite similar in many ways, was there parts of you that had that internalized narrative of you need to have a serious profession? I put that in quotation marks. Oh, yeah. Particularly given your childhood and, you know,

where you came from and daughter of a policeman and all that. Yes. Yeah, did you have, was that difficult as well? Like, will I no longer be taken seriously if I'm just doing this trivial TV stuff? And I'm saying that's what other people would think maybe. Absolutely. And it even came from my parents.

Right. Yeah. I can imagine that. Yeah. For many years, it was, you're never going to make it. It's a lovely hobby to have. You're doing a lovely job with your hobby. They'd never be that condescending, but that was kind of the message. But I left corporate employment in 2001. So had a good decade of running my own business in a few different forms. And still every time I'd see my mum and dad, they'd say, oh, I've got enough work on Mel's. You know, have you got enough to do? Are you okay? Are you actually putting food on the table? And for them, the idea, because they've had, you know, very traditional career paths, the idea of me being in a job that is so, what's the word, unreliable,

completely unreliable, could be taken out from under you at any moment, was very frightening for them. For me, that's very exciting. But yes, a lot of that did creep in, a bit of that, do I have credibility? Will I be taken seriously if I don't have that title psychologist? And is psychology a very male-dominated profession? I wouldn't say so. There are a lot of women, a lot of women in psychology. What is a psychologist and how is it different

from being a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist? I can't speak for the UK. It may be different there, but in Australia, a psychologist is the person who has the certain qualifications. And in my day, so I did my training obviously a long time ago. And so I had to do my undergraduate, my postgraduate, and then two years, a bit like an apprenticeship, two years under supervision. These days you have to have the masters in the mix as well as all of that. And so you have to meet very specific criteria. You have to have regular supervision, regular professional development and keep it up. So it's very closely monitored and the code of ethics is very, very tight. Of course, to protect our clients, you know, it's so important that we have that. Psychotherapists, counselors, coaches

are not monitored in the same way. Okay. But in terms of the practice of it, you're still sitting opposite someone and it's a session where you're asking them pertinent questions and getting to the root of why they might be acting the way that they are. Okay, got it. Nailed it. Yeah. So that idea of categorizing it as a failure, which I know is what this podcast is all about, so you had to come up with three failures. Yes. But did it actually feel like a failure that you didn't do it earlier that's the reason i listed it for this chat i mean i i think have a

very similar philosophy as you and i talk to my clients about failure is feedback yes the way we talk about it it's just a piece of data that you can add to the mix and make a new decision go off in a different path but yes once I had made this very difficult decision, I had such a, oh, now I can exhale. There was a real sense of relief and a real sense of, oh, finally I can just be me. Finally I can sit on that couch and I can say what I want to say to the people on our show from my perspective.

Because prior to that, I was constantly having to filter everything I said through what would the board say about this? What would other psychologists say about this? Constantly having to check myself. Am I going to be seen as conforming to other people's ethics? Where I landed was I actually really believe in my own ethics. I don't need a board to tell me whether I'm acting in integrity or not because I know I am.

So that was very empowering and at that moment I did sort of look back and go, why didn't I do this 10 years ago? What age were you then? I must have been about 47. I love hearing that because I do think that we live in a culture that celebrates the idea of youth and of doing something before a certain time. So the 30 under 30 lists, the idea that if you succeed at a younger age, it's somehow better. And I think that what that leads to is this ingrained

insecurity that you're not doing as well as you should be by certain metrics. And what I love hearing people say is that they found their passion later in life, or they signed their first book deal in their 50s, or they didn't learn until they were 70 something how they wanted to live because I think that really makes the point that you can flourish with age that actually age is an enormous benefit because it brings us wisdom and experience and self-knowledge so I really like hearing that and I wonder what you think about that about that idea that life shouldn't be a race? Oh, absolutely. I turned 50 last year and I love it. Yeah, I mean. Thank you. I love it. I love the calm wisdom that it's brought for me. You know, I don't feel

panicked about proving myself or getting to the front of the race because I'm really content with where I'm at. Don't get me wrong. I'm not giving up. I've got so many exciting projects ahead of me and I'm so clear about what I want to achieve with them, but it's a calmness. That's sort of the way I would describe it. I have this calmness about me now that is not dampening my ambition. It's just sitting next to my ambition and whispering in her ear, it's okay. You're going to get there. Yes. Do you know what I would describe it as? Because I've been feeling this lately, being aligned with your purpose. And when you're finally aligned with

your purpose, it does feel a lot clearer. Like decisions become a lot clearer. Not only that, but when you're really busy and stressed it's a different kind of stress I feel I'm not internalizing it and questioning myself I'm stressed and I'm busy and that's fine that's appropriate because I'm doing something I really believe in and it just so happens to garner attention right now because I got a book that's about to come out yeah but it's the first time I felt that like no I know why I'm doing this and I'm really glad I'm doing it. Yeah. Have you heard the term eustress?

No. As in E-U-S-T-R-E-S-S. Okay, no. It's good stress, positive stress. So there's distress and there's eustress. Huh. That's eustress. E-U.

Okay, that means something different in British, as you probably know. Oh, E-U. Like we'd be very stressed over the E-U. Yeah. Eustress. I've never heard that before. Yeah, eust huh propels you forward that's great yeah my husband says sometimes that anxiety is the price you pay for responsibility yeah actually it's a privilege sometimes to feel stress and to feel anxious because it means you're doing something good

yes okay let's go on to your second, which I know will resonate with so many listeners. This is the fact that you dated, according to you, all the emotionally unavailable men in your twenties and thirties. I did. The Peter Pans, the commitment phobes. Oh my God. All of them. Anyone who, I would prefer it even if they lived interstate. Overseas, even better. Right. I was captain self-sabotage. Okay.

That was my job. So were you single throughout your 20s and 30s? Throughout my 30s, I was. Throughout your 30s. My entire 30s. Give us a little potted relationship history that led you to that point. Okay, so my first boyfriend was divine, just gorgeous, absolute sweetheart, lifted me up, made me feel amazing and that lasted for four years. So my first grown-up boyfriend, I mean.

So that was amazing. But then I grew and he didn't. Okay. I felt like I left him behind in many ways and so I grew in one direction and he kind of didn't. And so I guess you could say I grew out of him. And instead of breaking up with him in a really positive, smart, mature way, I kissed his cousin, which was great.

Okay, how old are you now at this point? 21. Okay. Not a child. Should have known better. Yeah, that was the beginning of quite destructive behaviour, I think, on my part. I was rebelling because it was such a lovely, grown-up, nurturing, positive relationship.

It was a really good one as far as first relationships go. And I needed to rebel, and I did. I spent quite a few years rebelling, actually. And you probably felt, if I don't rebel rebel and if there isn't a catalyst to our breaking up, this is just going to be me now for the rest of my life because there's no other reason for us to end. Okay. There was no reason. Yeah. He didn't have any break upable offenses. You know, he was actually a real good one. You had to create one. I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so I then went on to a series of less functional relationships, you might say, and even one quite toxic one, which I think we were probably codependent looking back on it

and it was, you know, very, he was a performing artist as well and so the two of us were both quite explosive together. Looking back, I think it should have just been a really hot affair. Yeah. Should have just stayed there and ended and it would be a great memory, but we turned it into a relationship and lived together and I don't think we should have really. Okay.

So what do you now, looking back as a psychologist for 20 plus years, as an expert on one of the world's most popular relationship shows, what do you think your pattern was and why were you living it out? Oh, Elizabeth. Treat yourself as a client. This is a big one. This is a big one. I was hurt when I was around 17.

I'm so sorry. Thank you. Hurt by men. And I didn't deal with that terribly well. in queue hurt by men. And I didn't deal with that terribly well. And so I think what I did was got angry and punished all the men. And I've had years of experience and therapy for myself, and I understand all of that now. Although you can still see me get a bit angry with the men. I mean, never, ever lose that. Because you're doing it for so many of us. I won't. Yes, I know. And I love that part of my world. But I think that, well, I believe that's what led to me making really unhealthy choices. And I got to the point where I was saying to my

friends and to the world, I want a relationship. I love dating. I love men. But so much of me was pushing men away. My girlfriends used to say, if any guy would come near me in a bar or something, it was like I had F off written across my forehead in neon lights. I can remember a guy saying to me, can I buy you a drink? And I exploded at him. Why would I want you to buy me a drink? Don't you think I'm independent enough? I earn my own money. Went off on one. I mean, not very sexy. So the emotional unavailability, that's interesting because when I read this as a failure, I thought that would be what I did, which is yearn for emotional availability and yet exclusively date emotionally unavailable men. Whereas for you, it sounds like you didn't want the emotional availability.

Yes, I wasn't aware of it. I think at an unconscious level I was pushing away anyone who was quote-unquote a good guy. Yes. I think they did cross my path but I wouldn't have even noticed them because I believed I needed to be with the bad boy. I needed to be in that state of drama, that state of flux with a guy. And is this at the stage now that we're talking about?

Had you given up your life on the stage and were you now training to be a psychologist? Oh, no, I was still very much on the stage at that point. On the stage professionally and personally, it sounds like. Yeah, that's right. I mean, my life was a drama. I was drawn to drama and it wasn't good. It wasn't fun. Yeah. Were you unhappy? I would say yes, particularly in my thirties. And, you know, I lived alone and traveled to Dubai, lived in Dubai for a couple of years.

Not a great place to be single. Trying to date there was really tricky. I was lonely. You know, Trying to date there was really tricky. I was lonely. You know, many a Saturday night spent on that couch by myself, wishing that there was someone fabulous sitting next to me, but not really understanding why I couldn't attract the right people and probably having a little bit too much pride to let a good person in. What advice would you give to that Mel now? I'd say let your walls down, honey. Just be real. You know, I think I spent so much time playing the role of the accomplished,

independent, successful woman, which I was, but that's not all I was. You know, there was such a big part of me that only, you know, one or two people in the world knew about that was very lonely and very sad and desperately wanted to have a partner by my side who could be my person and have my back. Yes. If someone's listening to this and they're struggling to let their walls down because perhaps like you they have been badly hurt and they're scared of making themselves vulnerable. And anytime

they venture towards taking that step, they're let down by someone who ghosts them, by someone who's disappointing or just not consistent. What would you say is the first step to allowing those walls to come down? Because sometimes it's such a hard thing to do. Yeah. And I meet a lot of women in that boat. The first thing I would say is stop trying to do both simultaneously. Stop dating for a while. Step out and just focus on yourself.

I didn't do that. And I was trying to kind of do both at once, but both are really big life projects, you know, and I think you really can't do justice to both at the same time. And so I often say this to my clients, take all the apps off your phone. Anyone who, you know, jumps into your DMs at 3 a.m. with a you up emoji, block, delete, cut it off so you don't have that distraction. You don't get that little dopamine hit, stop it and set a time for it. You know, you might say, okay, for the next three months, I'm just focusing on me, whether that's journaling or seeing a therapist or talking to

your best friend or a family member, just be with yourself and let that stuff percolate and process it because you can't process it, particularly if there's trauma. You can't process it while you're dating. You're just going to self-sabotage. And what if you have the opposite problem, which is that you're in love with the idea of being in love and you make yourself too open and too readily available for people who then don't treat you the way that you need to be treated? I'd say same thing.

Step out for a while. There is nothing wrong with stepping out for a short time. I don't mean give up at all, but I'm talking about taking a little break. You don't break up with dating. You just take a holiday from it and just invest in yourself and do some thinking about what is it that I want from this relationship? What is my dating goal? That's a really, really big decision to make because I find a lot of people in the dating world telling themselves my goal is to be in a committed long-term serious relationship, but the tactics that they're using are taking them towards casual hookups. To me, it's a bit like saying I want to run a marathon,

but in order to get there, I'm going to jump hurdles. Yes. Doesn't make sense. Also, the other thing that I would say is if what you've been doing up till now hasn't worked for you, don't keep doing it. And I needed that advice. So my situation was I got divorced when I was 35, and then I was pitched into the dating app world for the first time, because I've been in a series of long-term monogamous relationships since the age of 19. So it's my first experience of that world. And it was unbelievably tough and it taught me a lot. And one of the things that it taught me was the people that I have an instinct automatically to dismiss when I see their dating profile come up on Bumble or Hinge,

actually I need to give those people another chance because the ones that I've been instinctively drawn to in the past, that hasn't worked for me, spoiler alert. So I sort of need to, I needed to be more open-minded whilst also protecting my heart, which is sometimes a difficult balance to strike. It's very difficult and that's why I don't think you should do dating alone.

You know, to have a dating buddy or a little dating crew is so important that you can have those debriefs. I'm running a group at the moment for women around confidence and it just happens that almost all the women in the group are dating at the moment. So it's kind of almost turned into a dating confidence group, which I love. And what I love about it is they'll go on a date and then they'll straight away jump into the WhatsApp group or they'll meet up for a drink together afterwards and debrief it. Have a laugh. You know, to be able to laugh at the maybe

embarrassing thing that you said or, you know, the hope that you might have for this person, to show that vulnerability and unpack that stuff with someone you trust is so important. There'll be people listening to this who are perfectly happy on their own and that's wonderful and aren't in the market to meet anyone. But for those people who really crave a relationship and are currently single, would you say you will meet someone? Like it will happen. Yeah, I do say that. Okay. And I do have hope because I lived it myself. Yes. And I didn't believe that I was going to meet someone. I genuinely didn't. I genuinely got to the point in my life where you laughing because you felt

the same. Yeah. And I was starting to map out my solo life and what that was going to look like for me. And that was okay. So I want to know all about how you met your now husband. And just to give you a little brief warm up, I'll talk about how I met mine, which was I had gone through that phase of like, this isn't working. I need time for myself. And I went on a yoga retreat and it was really helpful and all of that and then one morning I remember it was March and it was snowing outside

I love snow I know but not in March anyway and I downloaded this app that someone in LA had told me about it was relatively new and it was called Hinge and obviously everyone knows about it now and the first person I matched with was a man called Justin whose profile did him no favours um the photos weren't particularly flattering he had three kids which was not something I thought I wanted and he was persistent and a consistent communicator so from that moment of matching he messaged me basically every day for two weeks which I at that stage was like what a weirdo why is he doing this what an emotional stalker because I was so used to the emotional fuckwits and unavailability and

all of that and eventually I agreed to meet him for a date and I went into that date with absolutely zero expectation to the extent that I had just booked tickets to move to LA full time that morning. Wow. I was like, I'll just get this date out of the way. And then I'm going to start my new solo life in LA. And I walked in and I met Justin and he was so much more handsome than his photos. The chemistry was immediate. After that, it took us a while to like build up our love because we'd both been married and divorced and bruised but it taught me so much about not always trusting my first impression my first assumption my first judgment and also that I find it so romantic now that it took us a while to build up to saying I love you because there's such safety and security in that and I'm so grateful for all of those stages that

I went through along the way. Sorry, go ahead. I need to know, what did you do with your ticket to LA? Oh, great question. One that no one's ever asked me. I basically changed it into a shorter trip. So I changed it into a month long trip in, I think it was September, 2019. And I finished writing my book, How to Fail in that time. And Justin came out for four days, just four days, like be with me. And we went for dinner at the Chateau Marmont. And that is the first time that we said that we loved each other. Six months into dating, that's when we told each other that we loved each other. And so that's how I used my LA ticket.

So it all came good. I love that now you met your husband on eHarmony okay so where were you at in your life in your dating life when that happened and how old were you so I was 49 49 when you're 39 I was like that doesn't work Mel doesn't work didn't I mention I was 60 no I was 39 numbers are not my strong point I was 39 when I met Justin oh another similarity yes carry on I was 39 and I had retrained as a dating coach so this was something that so I'd been doing the psychology and found that so often the conversations that I was having with people, particularly in the corporate world where I was doing a lot of my work, just naturally turned into conversations about dating.

You know, I remember I was doing a lot of training of people in one of the big professional services firms and talking to people who were essentially accountants about how to have the more interpersonal skills like sales and negotiations and that sort of thing. And so often we do these role plays and, you know, I try to get them comfortable with that sort of thing. And so often we do these role plays and, you know, I try to get them comfortable with having sort of difficult conversations and they'd say, oh, this came up on a date or how would I apply this on my next date? And I realised there was a real hunger for this kind of skill set. I mean, to me, fundamentally, it's exactly the same skill set. I just needed to frame it differently. I looked into it and there were at that stage no Australians

who were accredited as dating coaches. So I became the first one. So that was fun going down that road and started to actually work in the space. And I actually had one of those aha light bulb moments myself where I was working with a client and giving her this advice. And I actually had this, I would have loved to have seen the look on my face when I actually realized I need to take my own bloody advice. I can't believe I'm not doing this myself. It makes so much sense. And what we're essentially talking about was strategic dating.

Yes. I love this. Right. So this is what my next book is on, P.S. Genius idea. This is where I think all the goods come together. All of my training in psychology, all of my experiences of really crap data, my experience as a dating coach, all comes together because essentially it's about how to use the skills, the smart skills that we use in our careers in our dating life. I mean, think of it this way. You would not turn up to a job interview with no information about the organisation without thinking about what you have

to offer the job. You wouldn't go without a resume, would you? No. And you wouldn't go all dishevelled. You know, if it was a job in the corporate setting, you wouldn't arrive in your bikini, now would you? But these are examples that I hear all the time about people in their dating lives, complete self-sabotage by not being prepared, not having thought through what they want. So therefore being dragged in one direction or the

other based on what someone else needs. Yes. That's so good, particularly for women, I think. Absolutely. So you took your own advice? I did. I did. I mean, I essentially have a four-step process to become date ready. And the first step is to date yourself. And I thought, okay, I'm going to go back to basics.

I'm going to start with me. And I started putting myself through all of the little activities and so on that I was doing with my clients. Started with values. What are my highest values? And, you know, I realised things for me at the time, and it's pretty consistent even to this day as values tend to be pretty consistent, were things like freedom, for example,

and independence. Well, those are really high values for me. So for me, trying to hook up with a potential partner who wants to envelop me and dominate me and control me is never going to work because it's a clash with my values. You know, health and adventure are really important to me. So when I hooked up with that guy, and I'm thinking of one in particular at the moment, all he wanted to do was sit on the couch and eat junk food and watch football. Well, that's just not only unadventurous, it's unhealthy, and it just feels totally incongruent to me. So I started getting really clear about who I am and what I want, and therefore allowing

that to dictate the kind of person I wanted to be with. And that's where true deal breakers come from. They're not just about someone's height or the football club they belong to. It is that values-based stuff. So I started to actually think from my own perspective, what is going to serve me in a relationship? What's going to bring out my best, but also what is going to serve me in a relationship? What's going to bring out my best, but also what's going to make me the happiest? How will I play to my strengths? You know, I'm a big fan of positive psychology and a strength-based approach. And so I really believe in, you know, all the, Martin Seligman is one of my favorite writers in this area. And so his model of, you know, the science of wellbeing, you know, I don't know if you've

heard of it, the PERMA model. Oh, I love this. Let me just share it with your listeners. It's P-E-R-M-A. These are the things that you need in order to have wellbeing. P is positive emotion. So having more positive emotions in your day. E is engagement. So doing the things that where you're in flow. So things that are aligned with your values every day. R is relationships, but essentially positive relationships, not the toxic ones. M meaning having a higher meaning in your life. And A is accomplishment. So getting that sense of accomplishment. And the R, so the positive relationship piece, I realized that that was the big bit that was missing for me, had all the other things in spades. So I started to get really strategic at that point,

getting really clear on what my personal dating brand was, got clear about my dating mindset and getting rid of all those old stories that I would tell myself about, you know, all men cheat, men will hurt you, people will let you down, all that sort of stuff. It was rubbish. You know, it was based on historical stuff that was no longer relevant to me. So I did a big clean out and this is the kind of stuff I do with my clients now. And then, you know, got to the point where I had clarity and I knew what I wanted. And that's when I stepped onto eHarmony. Okay. So I feel like I had the advantage of having done loads of pre-work before I stepped in there. You said that there was a four-stage model.

Yes. Are you allowed to just – I know that everyone will be rushing out to pre-order the book as soon as they can, but what are the other three stages? Yes, so it starts with date yourself, then have a positive dating mindset, then set up your personal dating brand. So it's a bit like personal branding in your work life, but in your dating life. And then your authentic dating strategy, which is online and offline. Okay.

Yeah. Very interesting. So you sign up to eHarmony and you meet Gareth. Yes. How quickly do you meet him? He was the fourth person I dated on eHarmony and you meet Gareth. Yes. How quickly do you meet him? He was the fourth person I dated on eHarmony. And a little bit like your situation, he was living in a different state. So I was in Melbourne and he was in Adelaide. It was a flight away. We couldn't just pop over and see each other.

So for the first six weeks, we only texted and emailed each other. And I think that was the making of us. Because for me, one of the big things that was missing with a lot of guys I was dating was the intellectual banter. I got very bored of people very, very quickly. And all of a sudden, this guy was meeting me, not only meeting me at my level, but he was way, I mean, full disclosure, he's a member of Mensa. Okay. Sure, he won't member of Mensa. Okay.

Sure, he won't mind me telling you that. So he's a big nerd and has a very big brain and he's very funny and witty. Did I mention he's Northern Irish? You didn't, but I did know that. So the banter was incredible and funny and witty and I found that all of a sudden I was really funny. I've never been so good at texting in my life as when I started talking to him and it was funny and it was just going on and on. And I thought, okay, I'm going to have a conversation with this guy. I'm going to call him. I'm going

to have voice to voice action with this guy. Do you think I could understand a word he said? I remember I was driving and I had to pull over to concentrate and just listen. I could not. His accent was so strong. I guess it still is but I don't notice it anymore. She must be like, I found this amazing man but I can't understand a word he says. No, couldn't understand a word.

So it was until we met in person so then I could lip read, of course. First date I could lip read, of course. First date, I was lip reading, but oh my gosh, the first date I was a mess because by that point, despite all the best advice from my girlfriends, don't put all your eggs in one basket. I was, I stopped dating everyone else. I was only focused on this guy because I just knew. It's weird. I just knew it was an intuition, I guess. And I met him and he says, I just did everything I would tell my clients not to do. I just unloaded and just told him my entire life story in the space of an hour in a really high pitch voice. It's like really, really, really fast. Oh, it's so embarrassing. Think back now. But we had this moment where he just

leant across the table put his hand on mine and he just said it's okay you don't have to prove anything here oh and i just went exhale wow yeah i feel calm just hearing that yeah and now you're married we are and your parents which we're coming on to because it pertains to your third failure yeah but I want to ask what it is like for Gareth being married to someone with 20 years psychological experience who is a dating expert on the foremost relationship program in the world. What's that like? I'll answer that by sharing the two most common phrases in our relationship. One from both of us is don't tell me what to do because we are both alphas. We are both very driven, very focused individuals,

type A personalities you might say. So don't tell me what to do. And number two, which only comes from him is I'm not your client. So look, it's not a low key relationship. You might say we are both a hundred percent goers. So it's interesting at the moment because the way our world is constructed is I'm the primary breadwinner and he's the primary parent at the moment. And there's been times in our relationships where that was reversed. So it's tricky to navigate, you know, from a sort of power balance perspective in our relationship. And he's, you know, a very proud guy and he spends a lot of time, he plays in the share market and that's

sort of his, and because he's a massive nerd with a massive brain it's really successful he's really good at it but it has an impact you know on this relationship so we're constantly navigating where we're at and making sure that our communication is working and you know there's been times where I'm away from the family for you know last year for three months at a time which is really hard. And so we're starting, I say starting, 12 years down the track, starting to get good at navigating, for example, our communication when I'm returning to the family. So that re-entry point, which is tricky. Yes, very much so. Thank you for speaking so candidly about that, because I think lots of people would

look at you and assume that you have a perfect relationship where nothing ever needs to be said because you've already worked it all out in your brilliant clinical mind and what's it like for him that you have a public profile he loves it that's so nice yeah so you feel totally supported and finally like you're not too much, you're just enough. Exactly, yes. More than supported, actually, he propels me forward. He uses this revolting expression. You know, men like to talk about balls when it comes to courage,

so he says things like, oh, that was great, you were balls out, or you were balls to the wall there, babe, more of that. That's his way of complimenting me i love the sound of gareth he's a good one okay your third failure i am so glad you're going to talk about this and i also long before we met i saw an instagram post that you'd put out there which referred to this and, as someone who has gone through her own fertility journey, I felt so seen and understood in your words. And I want to thank you about being a public figure in this space, because your third failure is your failure to pay attention to your biological clock until it was nearly too late. Yeah. So you've met Gareth. And then what happens

in terms of, do you have the conversation quite early on about wanting to have a family? So he has a child. Well, I shouldn't say child. She's 27. He has a young woman. So knowing that he already had a child, I felt like the pressure was off because in my mind I didn't believe that I was going to become a parent. I didn't believe that I had a yearning to become a parent. Ever? I believed that I didn't believe that I was going to become a parent. I didn't believe that I had a yearning to become a parent. I believed that I didn't ever.

Interesting. I now know that that's not true. Yes. You know, you're probably noticing quite a lot of self-denial and avoidance in my history, which is why I'm so good at spotting it now, I guess. Yeah. But I did.

I had one girlfriend who would always say to me when I'd say, oh, no, I'm not going to be a parent. I'm just going to be single and fabulous. She'd say, I don't believe you, but okay. She would always say that and it annoyed me no end. And when she had a baby and saw how gorgeous I was with her baby and how connected I was and how maternal I seemed to be, she kind of just looked knowingly at me like, your turn will come. Don't be ridiculous. It's not for me. She's your baby, that's all.

You know, shut it down. I wouldn't say I was one of those women whose clock was ticking. I wouldn't. And this is me getting to 38, 39, nothing's happening. And then I get into this relationship with this person who is my forever. Look, it's very clear to me, you know, that's not being warm and fuzzy. That was just, that's how it was. I realized that I'd found my soft place to land. This is my person I'm going to be with forever. And it shifted. I can't explain it.

I guess looking back, it was always there, but I was so self-protective and resistant to, I didn't want to be the single girl who wanted a baby because that's just too painful. Yes, I totally hear you. And I also think for me in this area, there are ways, we're lucky enough to live in a scientific age where there are ways if we are single women that we could have children on our own. And I never wanted that. I wanted to have a child within a relationship. So it sounds like you met the right person for you. And that's when you felt safe enough to allow that yearning in. Yeah. Yeah. I remember we went to a day at the races, Yeah, yeah.

I remember we went to a day at the races, a big boozy, you know, corporate day and introducing this new boyfriend to everybody and having this wonderful time with him and then we, on the way home, thought it would be a good idea to go bar hopping after a full day of drinking. Oh, my God. He's definitely a low-risk. Yes, yes, he is. And I thought it would be a good idea to have a cry in every bar

along Chapel Street in Melbourne. So that was good. That would be a good idea to have a cry. And one of the cries was, what if I can't have a baby? What if I'm not enough for you? This came out. We'd probably been together three months at this point. Classy.

What if I'm not enough? You know, really classy. And I went home that night and went off the pill, which was a ridiculous thing to do with a boyfriend I'd had for three months. I did. I went off the pill. I'm going off the pill tonight. And he said, yeah, okay, right, whatever.

Fast forward probably six months and I moved to Adelaide to be with him, which was massive, literally put some tenants in my apartment, jumped in my car and drove. And we were together and we were doing this dance for a couple of months of him feeling ready around, you know, having babies and not me and then me feeling ready and not him. And we finally got to this point where we were both saying at the same time, I think we're ready.

Feeling very scared, very surprised that we'd arrived there. But at that point, we're both 39. And I said, OK, let's just do it. I'll go off the pill. I'd been on the pill for 20 years. So I thought this is going to take a while. We need to get into it because there's a long road ahead of us. Within about 10 minutes, I was pregnant.

It just happened, the strangest thing. And I went into full denial. It's not happening. Pretended it wasn't happening. I could not process it. I just couldn't. Kept working as hard, putting myself in stressful situations, ignoring, ignoring, ignoring until I started to get a little bit of a bump.

And I was getting to about 11 and a half weeks. And I remember I finally said to him, okay, I'm ready to accept that this is happening a little bit. How about we go shopping and buy a baby thing, just one thing to represent what's going on. And I remember mum and dad were over and staying with us at the time. And I went shopping with mum and bought a little pink thing and a little blue thing. And that's when the miscarriage started was when I was out shopping and it all started to fall apart. And it was so confusing because I'd finally arrived at that point where

I thought, yeah, this is something that's going to happen in my life. This is something I deserve. I actually can do this. It's going to happen. I'm scared shitless, but I can do this. I've got the right team around me. And then it was gone. So very, very confusing time. And for me it's almost like the grief became really complicated because part of me was sort of saying, well, I didn't really want it anyway. I wasn't really ready. But then it was taken away from me without my say.

Yeah. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I feel you so deeply i know you do yeah i think also coping mechanisms can be so extraordinary and dysfunctional but i'm so grateful to them for protecting me and i had had a similar coping mechanism, I think, when I had my first miscarriage, a very similar time. It was just before our 12-week scan. And because my then marriage wasn't as it should have been, and because it had come at the end of a very long and difficult year where I'd started fertility treatment,

I remember thinking, well, you're probably a bit relieved, aren't you? That was like an internal moment, which was so unkind to myself. But it was that thing I think of, I can't name this grief or give it much shape because I'm grieving an absence that's quite complicated. So I can only accept so much. And that's what I'm going to tell myself until I can accept the rest of it yeah do you think you said to yourself you didn't really deserve this you yes you did this a hundred percent I think I did too yeah because you might notice just before I said when I was pregnant I kept working I kept putting myself in stressful situations that's what I was saying to myself you did this because you kept working at the same pace and I blamed myself yes which is so ridiculous it's awful And I'm sure, again, so many women listening will relate to it because we do tend to internalize it and pour the shame of that self-perceived failure into that hole, that space.

It's a horrible, horrible thing. And even now, Mel, even after doing, what is it, like five years of work on failure specifically on the language of failure on how we shouldn't apply it to fertility even now when i recently had another fertility treatment cycle that wasn't successful even now i still turn it into myself and at least i get better at realizing that's what i'm doing. And then I'm able to sort of question it, but it's that default automatic reaction that is very hard to uncondition yourself from. Oh, it's the language we use. It's a failed marriage. It's a failed IVF attempt. Yeah. Oh, and it's so hard to separate yourself from it. Yeah. I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm so honored that you feel you can talk about it in this space.

And I now want to get on to happier times because I want to know about your daughter. Yes. So then what happens after you have this realisation, both of you, I imagine, that this is really meaningful and it is definitely something you want. Yes. So it was very powerful in terms of our joint decision-making and our mindset

at that point, because we did become absolutely crystal clear that this is what we want. So we started having conception sex, which is not very sexy, is it? It shouldn't even be called sex. It should be called work. Conception strategy. That's what we should call it. Yes. Started calling the bed the work bench we got on the work bench we did it put my legs up the wall did all the things so i don't know if you have them here but there's it's it's like a stage before ivf where you can have assisted iui is it that one where they basically they measure your cycle and then they put the sperm in at the appropriate juncture no this is prior to that to that. Okay, okay. So it was a drug.

It was a drug that I took that basically supersized the ovulation process. Okay. And meant that I produced more eggs. Okay. That's all it was. It's like a precursor to IVF, I guess. And so we did that for a couple of months in a row and it didn't work. And anyone who has been through fertility treatment knows that just saying,

we did that drug and it didn't work, sounds like a very simple thing. But isn't it incredible what your body and your whole mental life and emotional life goes through taking a fertility drug? It's insane. And also my experience of fertility hormones was I was never quite aware when I was in it. I mean, they had a massive impact on me, but there was a sort of numbing quality to it where I was like, well, this is just me now. This is just me. And it's only afterwards looking back that you realize the extent, the toll that it took on you. Yeah.

Incredible. And that was before I even started IVF, but we then got to the point, the toll that it took on you. Yeah. Incredible. And that was before I even started IVF, but we then got to the point, it was a year down the track. So we were both 40 and thought, okay, let's do it now. Let's do IVF. So did the first cycle and got a healthy number of eggs. And that was great. And they said, because of your age, we'd like to put two in, put two fertilized eggs inside you. And so we had to go home and have a big talk about it because this could mean twins and my sisters had twins, so there's twins in the family.

Are we prepared to do this? And we said, yeah, absolutely we are, so let's do that. So we put the two in and neither of them took. So that, I mean, in itself, as you know, is the most incredible emotional journey that you go through. The hope, the belief, you start the planning. Our life is about to completely change and be transformed. And then bang, it's over.

It's not going to happen. I remember exactly where I was when I got the phone call. I was with my mum and my sister and my nieces at the time shopping. It's always the shopping malls. Stop going shopping gosh I know what you mean though because also at that stage especially with your first round of IVF you're like well technically I'm pregnant and there's nothing all right like it's the best it could possibly be because it's gone through all of these processes and so the chances are going to be much higher so I'm good and then it's so shocking if they don't stick as they call it which is a horrible phrase didn't stick but the next day

the doctor called and said look there's this one little egg that didn't make it to maturity in time but it's made it now would you like to put this one on ice? And I was still just in shock and not really processing what was going on. I said, yeah, whatever. Okay, put it on ice, whatever that means. And I didn't really think much more about it. So this little egg went onto ice for six weeks whilst they waited for my next natural cycle to happen. And then they said, would you like to put this egg in now

in your natural cycle? So I didn't have to have the drugs again because we were planning to take probably three or four months off because, as you know, the toll that it takes on your body and relationship. And I thought, well, I don't have to go through the drugs again. They just want to put it in a natural cycle. Okay, nothing to lose really here. And that was Maddie.

Wow. So she spent the first six weeks of her life frozen, which is why I think she loves the movie Frozen so much. She really resonates with that, Elsa. The complex bit is that I feel guilt about having that successful process, particularly with someone like you, a sister, in this process. It's almost like survivor guilt. I think it's probably a similar kind of process in that I know so many women and one of my closest friends has been through, I think,

nine cycles. And she now has a little girl who's very good friends with my little girl. But I almost feel guilt. Well, not almost. I do feel guilty that I did one cycle and I got the prize. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your saying that. And as much as possible, I want to absolve you of that guilt because I feel nothing but uncomplicated happiness for you uncomplicated happiness for you because you know the pain and you have shown so many of us the way you've shown me that there is hope on the other side of it and also there's that interesting thing about empathy in that I don't think it has to be grounded in having experienced exactly the same things as anyone else it's simply an active attempt to think of other people and to try and understand and to ask a question about what they might be going through.

And I would apply that to any area of life, not just fertility. But I think I talk about it a lot because I feel that women who have been through fertility struggles and who don't have children are underserved in the public discourse. And even you talking about this is such an amazing service to the rest of us. And so never feel guilt. It's not that, I mean, I can only speak for myself. I don't want to take away anyone's joy in having their children. I celebrate their children. I celebrate their motherhood. I think it's's wonderful it's simply that there is as you know any too well this silent number of women and men who i think a lot of time feel unseen and so what i'm passionate about is like making them feel seen and giving words to what they're going through but it's not mutually exclusive to someone having joy in their

parenthood. So I don't want you to feel guilt. Don't. Like I know guilt is such a difficult emotion because, but guilt for a reason is there to show that you've done something wrong and you haven't done anything wrong. So it's just a sort of default conditioning again it is conditioning yeah you know i appreciate you so much and i see you very much as like on our side definitely definitely i'm in there i'm in the trenches i know oh mel we have gone over oh by so much time i'm really sorry but i couldn't stop talking to you i could talk to you for days on end. I think what you have to say is so powerful and so helpful to so many people. We are blessed to see you on our TV screens

but I'm particularly honoured and touched that you came on How To Fail. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much. This has been therapy for me. Oh, the highest compliments. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.