How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Chris Appleton - ‘I Felt Shame Before I Felt Love’

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Celebrity hair stylist Chris Appleton has a slew of devoted clients including Kim Kardashian, Kris Jenner and Martha Stewart, as well as millions of Instagram followers and a regular slot offering advice on The Drew Barrymore Show. His memoir, Your Roots Don’t Define You, is a New York Times bestseller. But growing up was hard on Appleton: he was the middle of five children and struggled with undiagnosed dyslexia at school. He was bullied by his classmates for being gay - something he didn’t yet understand about himself. At 16, he left school to work full-time and began a serious relationship with his colleague, Kate. By 19, he was a father. In this episode we discuss imposter syndrome, the darkest moments of his life, shame and the work he’s done to overcome the hurdles he’s faced. And, of course, we talk about the Kardashians. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 02:33 Imposter Syndrome as Fuel 04:24 Red Carpets and Online Pressure 05:27 Hair as Celebrity Identity 07:15 Memoir and Health Wake Up 08:48 Dash the Dog and Comfort 11:02 Shame Coming Out and Healing 22:26 Kids First After Divorce 23:05 Holiday Triggers and Boundaries 24:31 Success Doesn't Heal 25:18 Inner Child Healing Work 27:22 Envy Into Mentorship 30:08 Kardashians on Failure 31:25 Hair Identity and Change 35:18 Comparison and Social Media 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: It’s okay to make mistakes, but I love learning from them and understanding why we make those decisions. Hair is such a big part of people's identity. It tells who you are. You can externally excite yourself... But if you're not aligned internally, you still have that sad and lonely feeling. I think imposter syndrome to an extent is healthy... It keeps me turning up to jobs prepared. I treat every job like it's the first time I've done it. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Chris Appleton’s book Your Roots Don’t Define You, is out now Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Rylan Clark - on public breakdowns, surviving divorce and rebuilding his sense of self. Dawn French - on comedy, adoption and finding confidence later in life. 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Chris answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I did hair so people automatically assumed I was gay. I was only 12 or 13 when I got a job in the hair salon. The ultimate shame which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time in my life and how shame really helped me back was when I came out and I came out of the age of 26. Failure happens to everyone. But I think you have a choice and what you do with failure and I think you can just be beating down and give up or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that focuses on failure rather than success, because we believe that's where you find your true self.

Now, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode with Chris Appleton includes discussion of suicide. So please do take care while listening. Don't forget to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode of How to Fail. I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy.

And now I'm talking about. There's some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges. Their stories are funny and quite candid. So I hope you'll join me each week. And who knows, you might just come away with your own glass at full. Search Glass Half Full with Craig Nelson from today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast. Sabrina.

Karen. I have been listening to a new show from The Binge called Fatal. fantasy. I am obsessed. Wait, wait, I need to know more. Tell me. Tell me everything. I will. It's a very shocking. It's this like ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that, yeah, wait for it. Yeah, wait for it. Leverage the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game. Wait, so it's live action role playing gone wrong. Horribly wrong. And you can binge all episodes now. Oh my God. That sounds so good. I know what I'm doing on my drive home today. Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the binge podcast channel on Apple Podcasts or at getthebinge.com.

And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens. Selfishly, you do so that we can talk about it. So whenever you listen, search for fatal fantasy and hit subscribe to the binge to get all episodes all at once, ad free. My guest today is a man Kim Kardashian credits with changing her life. He is Chris Appleton, one of the most sought-after hairstylists in the world, and responsible for iconic style statements such as Kardashian's wet look at the Met Gala in 2019 and J-Lo's Super Bowl blow dry that miraculously stayed bouncy throughout her performance.

But for anyone assuming that Appleton's work is one of superficial frippery, His life tells a different story. He grew up the middle of five children in Leicester and struggled with undiagnosed dyslexia at school. Hair became a refuge and the place where he could explore his creativity. By 13, he was working in a local salon and being badly bullied by his classmates for being gay, something Appleton didn't yet understand about himself.

At 16, he left school to work full time, and began a serious relationship with his colleague Kate. By 19, he was a father. In 2016, prompted by an email from Jennifer Lopez's team, he initially thought was a scam, he moved to Los Angeles. It was a move that would usher in a new age of success and self-acceptance. Now Appleton has a slew of devoted clients,

including Chris Jenner and Martha Stewart, as well as millions of Instagram followers, and a regular slot offering advice on the Drew Barrymore show. His memoir, Your Roots Don't Define You, is a New York Times bestseller. And yet, for all his achievements, the kid inside has never left him. I think imposter syndrome to an extent is healthy, Appleton says. I now have techniques to turn down that hater voice in my head from a 10 to a 2, but it does keep me turning up to jobs prepared.

I treat every job like it's the first time I've done it. Chris Appleton, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, thank you for having me. What an introduction. Can you come everywhere? I can 100% come with you and be your hype girl. Yeah, I was like, oh, this guy sounds cool. It's me.

It is you. And I really appreciate what you say about imposter syndrome there. I hugely relate to it. And I think imposter syndrome gets a bad reputation. Yeah, it does. But sometimes you're right that it keeps you driven. Yeah, it does for me anyway. Yeah.

I mean, I think it has to be a healthy balance, which I think I've learned over time. You know, because I think sometimes imposter syndrome, when it gets to the point where it paralyzes you, you know, it's unhealthy. But I think, you know, every job I do, I still have it. And I think it just motivates me to turn up being my best, want to do my best. I hope I never get to the point where I'm like, whatever. I don't know what I'm doing, you know. I was with my trainer the other day. And it was the Golden Globes.

And I had Jennifer Lopez to do when I said, I'm not nervous. I was like, apprehensive. And he's like, why are you nervous? Chris Appleton? It's not your first rodeo. And I was like, no, I guess I just, you're only as good as your last job sometimes. You know, I feel like the pressure to make sure that, you know, everyone always looks and feels their best. So, yeah, for me, it's motivation.

I think it just, I've learned techniques to be able to make it healthy. Yes, and I think sometimes having done the work and done the 10,000 hours, even if you're nervous, you can fall back on knowing you have expertise. Yeah, absolutely. So were you happy with J-Lo's Golden Globes? Yeah, she was great. It was so nice to see her again. It'd been a minute since we've got up, so it was nice. But, yeah, especially red carpet, there's somewhat pressure.

You know, we live in a world now where, you know, the internet is an interesting place. And for me, it changed my life in a great way. And it helped me be visible. But, you know, that visibility is also open to conversation. And, you know, sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. But I think, you know, you know what you're signing yourself for. I guess I definitely do.

So I think I have a healthy relationship with, you know, social media. But, you know, when a celebrity goes out there, you are aware that everyone's going to have an opinion on it. You know. Yes. There's only so much control you have on a red carpet with the lighting. or, you know, the weather conditions or whatever's going on. We're going to get more into the function of hair and what it tells you and how it projects who you want to be and a sense of confidence.

But I wonder if I could ask you a question, which is, if hair could talk, what would it tell us about a celebrity culture? I think probably that, you know, as much as anything, hair is just a huge part of your identity. It tells who you are. if I say to you Marilyn Monroe, you know, you think of the platinum blonde bombshell hair, you know, people still reference it now. And if you think of, I don't know, chapel with her redhead, you know, curly hair again, it's kind of signature or Lady Gargaar with

her, you know, she's always doing something different with her in its extreme. But if you think at Taylor Swift, you think of that, you know, she's got the bangs and the beechy wave or, you know, the Kardashians with their rich brunette. I think hair is just such a big part of people's identity. and in celebrity culture, obviously, that identity changes a lot. And we're used to sort of seeing people, you know, looking different. And we're like, wow, you know, I didn't know, bang's could look so good. And then the next day they're gone. So I think maybe just the power of reinvention.

And celebrities are maybe, you know, aware of that image and how it can change things up and create a different look. You know, if I'm working with J-Lo, it's like, okay, who are you going to be today? It's like, is it like actress J-Lo? Is she in a movie that she's sort of promoting or as musician Jalo, which is very different or red carpet, which again is very different. They're all kind of very different kind of vibes and identities,

but you're storytelling. You know, these looks you do usually trickle down into, you know, everyday looks that people want to create themselves, which I love. I love people being able to come out there, comfort zone and try new things. And, you know, a great haircut can change everything. I've never wanted to go blonde so much as when you did Kim Kardashian.

Really? I know everyone did that, yeah. It was incredible. Talking of storytelling, your book, your roots don't define you. First of all, what an exceptional title. Oh, yeah, I'm very proud of it. When did you come up with the title? Well, it changed. We had a book previously that was, I guess, a bit more like my own social media.

It was a little more surface level, maybe what people knew about me. It was a little bit more, I guess, you know, glamour. and Hollywood and polished. But I really just felt like it wasn't a true reflection of who I am on where I'm out in my life. I actually had a cancer scare. My mum had esophagus cancer, which was really scary during COVID, and she survived it.

And I had a lot of problems with my esophagus. And basically, after multiple tests and not being told by the doctor that it was okay, you know, I was waiting for them to say, oh, you're fine, it's just acid. And I never got that reassurance. So eventually I had to have like an operation where I had to be put to sleep. And I sort of laid there and I just thought to myself, if I kind of said what I needed to say,

or have I, you know, created an edited version of myself, which is probably something I've done my whole life. And I guess I wasn't prepared to lose my voice before I'd really owned it. So that's when the book changed and I scrapped the original idea. And your roots don't define you came to life because obviously, you know,

the initial stepping stone for me was hair. But the bigger story really was the roots really, really usually do define people, you know, where you come from, how you were brought up, and people carry this throughout their whole lives. And I first recognized that in hair and in hairstyling and changing people's image, but really it goes so much deeper. It's also a book that contains some fabulous acknowledgements. Yeah. So you acknowledge Chris Jenner, Kim Kardashian, Drew Barrymore, J-Lo, but you also acknowledge Dash. Oh, my dog. And it's really beautiful. I don't think I've ever read an acknowledgement of a

I think I want to get a tattoo of Dash. I just thought about it right now. I've got a tattoo of my kids on my... I'm not a tattoo kind of person, but I have my kids on my wrist and their date of birth just because it's kind of like your lifeline. Yeah.

I kind of had that when I was 30. But Dash is just such a part of the family. I never grew up with dogs. We didn't have that. I'm one of five kids. So there was too many kids going on. And we were very poor as kids. So it was kind of like survival.

You know, the last thing we needed was a dog. But having a dog as an adult, he's just become like the family stone. I don't know, like he's just, he's always there. He's such a happy little boy. And some of my favorite times to be sort of, I guess, relaxing times or times to switch off. It's just taking him to the park and watching him, you know, play.

And yeah, Dash is, he's a husky. He's such a good boy. He's very well trained. We actually brought him over at Christmas. He came on the flight with me. And like I say, he's part of the family. I never knew a dog could become such a, I was like, if I just become very LA, because in LA, everyone has a dog.

So I said thank you to Dash just because he's actually been with me through my loneliest times in life and some of my most broken times. Let's get onto your failures. And I want to preface this by saying, I really appreciate you opening up about times in your life that I'm sure are challenging to speak about still because they were traumatic and difficult. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that before we ventures that. Of course, thank you.

You're welcome, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think, I guess I've got to a point in my career where it's very kind for people to say, oh, you're successful now, or you've done this, or you've done that. And, you know, I guess if I think about it, I have done some great things, but there's been more of my life that I've been, you know, unsuccessful. And I've had more knows than I've had yeses. I've had more fails than I've had wins. But I guess once you get some momentum and you do have some wins, people all of a sudden, you have it all together and life's great. And you just kind of walked into America and you just became no and everyone, you know, it's really not like that.

Your first failure is letting shame make decisions. Yeah. Can you take us back to the first time you remember feeling shame or you were made to feel shame? Probably when I was bullied at school for doing hair. I did hair so people automatically assumed I was gay. I was only 12 or 13 when I got a job in the hair salon. But it was before I really considered what gay was or what my sexuality was. I was just had a good time at school and I was kind of a happy kid.

but being bullied it was very relentless you know I was beaten up and it wasn't just like a bit of name calling it was pretty intense more than my kids should go through so I think probably I felt ashamed of like should I be doing hair? It's not a guy's thing to do like and they say I'm gay and that seems bad and I don't want to be that so I think shame

was shown to me quite young unfortunately and I think I've probably experienced and felt shame before I felt love in a way. I don't know. I don't know. It's such a sensitive age where you're developing from a kid into an adult and then that just didn't really feel safe, you know, that time didn't feel safe. The ultimate shame which kind of led me to maybe my darkest time in my life and how

shame really helped me back was when I came out and I came out at the age of 26 and turning 27 and when I did come out, everyone just assumed that I always knew, you know, like you always knew you kept it a secret and I really didn't. I from a very young age I kind of was told I was stupid because it's dyslexic and I was told I was gay because I did hair and there were both things I didn't want to be. It seemed really bad and very negative and not a positive thing and I was like, want to be that. I don't want to be, you know, either of those things. And I just got really headstrong on proving everyone wrong. I really thought, I'm going to show everyone I'm not either of these things. And so I didn't look left or right. And your brain is very powerful when you set your mind to things.

You know, you can really, it was in a conscious decision. The only conscious decision I made was to prove people wrong, you know, and it was before I'd even sort of explored what that meant. And the sad part is I really abandoned myself, I think, at that age and became a version of myself, which I thought society wanted me to be or what was normal. But eventually that caught up with me and when I came out, I think the sense of loss I felt about I didn't know what the hell was happening.

I just couldn't seem to control it. I thought, how have I been for my whole life being straight and having it together and thinking this was my life? To all of a sudden now, it felt like it was a disease. I felt like I caught something and I couldn't get rid of it. It was just like it felt so consuming like cancer.

And also had a lot of people asking me questions, which I didn't know the answers to. So fast forward to the night I told my kids that I was gay, which was just because we had to, me and Kate, the mother of my kids, you know, had sort of tried to do the best to protect them, but people love to talk when there's a secret people want to know about it. And then that night telling them that was just the worst night of my life because I felt like everything I'd experienced as a kid really was then just passed on to them. And yeah, that's the night I tried to kill myself. And I think I didn't necessarily want to die

I just wanted to kill a version I just wanted to kill whatever it was in me that I couldn't control it anymore and it felt so much shame that I wanted to kill it and you know that meant I guess taking my life and it felt like it would be better for them to have a dad that was dead than gay

because there was so much shame around it there was so much shame and fear it was too much for me to understand The night that I tried to do that, I drove for miles and miles, and I drove for an hour or a bit away. I just was trying to get away. I felt like a disease, and I needed to get away from my family, get away from the people I loved because I was, like, infectious.

That's how it felt. Yeah, I felt just complete shame. That was me coming home to myself, and I guess I realized then I'd made a career out of people looking in the mirror, making people see themselves, become a better version of themselves. I just never really allowed myself to look in the mirror. I think I was just too afraid when I did look, because mine and Kate's relationship sort of ended around the age of 26, 27 at the same time.

I kind of thought, well, maybe I'm just experimenting. Maybe I'm going through this breakup and I'm just trying, you know, sometimes when you go for a breakup, you go through, you know, we have the, you know, the breakup haircut where everyone cuts the hair off. I thought, I'm just being a bit crazy, a bit wild. But once I'd opened the door of, you know, being gay and like sexuality, I couldn't close it. And I just, it just felt out of control.

My life felt out of control. I'm so sorry you went through that and how to carry so much pain. And thank you for sharing it. I'm sure I've took years off my life from what I did and how I treated myself and how poorly I felt about myself my whole life. I'm sure, you know, I do think that carrying shame and fear and anxiety, I do think it wears so heavy on your body. You know, the worry and the, you know, I think it's not good for you. They're not my proudest moments, but I think where I'm at in my life now is I've done so much work on myself,

it may seem like I'm speaking about these things quite lightly. I just know they're part of my story and I'm not ashamed of them anymore. I don't feel ashamed of my life. And I think for a long time I tried to delete my past. You know, I even move into America. I said it was for my career. I think part of it was just running away. I was wanting to get away from, you know, this person myself.

And I think one day when I realized that, you know, I had abandoned myself. And the real healing was coming back to myself and kind of showing myself the love that I showed others or got into relationships with because I was hoping they would heal it. and they would give me the love that I felt like I needed or that I did need and crave. But I think realizing that I can get that love to myself, you know, self-love is very peaceful. And it just means that you don't get into relationships. You shouldn't. It just means you don't get yourself in situations that are not healthy. You have boundaries, you know, and I think for a long time I didn't realize I could do that.

It's interesting trying to go into a relationship now. I think I know too much sometimes. I've done so much work on myself. and I've had so many different, I've had a big life of highs and lows. So I think it's made me very self-aware. So I've been single for the last two and a half years because once you know yourself

and once you've done the work, it takes someone very special to come into your life because I really guard it now and really protect it and protect myself and value myself. Like I would my kids. You know, like my kids, I would never let them just be with anyone or, you know, as a dad, you know, someone does something to your kid in the playground.

You want to go in there and find that little kid and tell them. You know, you're so protective. We're not always like that about ourselves. We kind of like people walk over us or, you know, let family members treat us pulling. It's just the way they are. You know, we kind of accept these things that we shouldn't. And I think in doing the work and knowing my value, sometimes it makes your world a smaller place, but it makes it a more peaceful place.

although I don't want to go back to those times they made me who I am today and I'm finding a place in my life where I'm proud of who I am regardless of all the noise and the different elements of my life that people feel like they have access to from being a public figure

although I just do hair I mean just keep it real it's not as though I'm saving lives but you know you're associated with the people that people know some of the most famous woman of the world and people you know associate with them with you and for the first time in my life some of the darkest secrets that I thought no one would ever know about,

I'm okay to talk about because hopefully that will help someone else. Exactly. And I love that for you. And I love how you've expressed it. And as Brne Brown says, the antidote to shame is sharing and forging that connection. Because the thing that shame thrives on is feeling like you're uniquely the only one going through something because it's so alienating, carrying that burden. Totally. And I also really appreciate what you say there about love because the idea that, that love is not a failure simply because it ends or evolves.

I think that you and Kate seem to be such good examples of that. Yeah. So Kate is your former long-term partner, mother of your children, and she's also the person who saved your life that night, isn't she? Yeah. She saved my life many times. Not, I mean, that's the only time I've ever tried to end it like that. But, you know, I think she's got me out of many situations where I just didn't see myself. and for many years, Kate saw me when I didn't see myself.

And during that time, which was incredibly painful for her and she was going for her own pain, for someone to be able to see you even though they're in pain and help lift you out of that was just incredibly selfless. And I think, you know, it's an unconditional love I have for Kate. And, you know, the bond of having the kids together and being parents to them and trying to give them their best life experience, even though it wasn't necessarily normal.

I think we have a great, you know, foundation and we have two beautiful kids I'm very proud of. And, you know, at Christmas, we spent Christmas together. I came back to the UK and it was New Year's Eve and fireworks were going off. And I put my arm around and I said, you know, I did it. You know, because I actually brought a house in the UK, which was a big thing and everyone was very surprised

when I said I wanted to buy a house in the UK. Because for such a long time, I couldn't even come back to England. I think once I left and found myself in the US, I wasn't Chris that was gay. I wasn't Chris that had kids. I wasn't Chris that had kids. I was gay, but he used to be with Kate and he always, none of that noise was there. I was just Chris. You know, I was a little older, so it's not as though people would judge you for being gay.

It was like, kind of like, oh, okay, you know, is who you are. I was accepted. So to come back to a place where I didn't feel accepted, felt paralyzing. And I would have panic attacks in the car when I had to come back for jobs in the UK. And I remember leaving Heathrow Airport and I would have panic attacks. I felt like I couldn't be that. But literally it was like post-traumatic stress. That's how I didn't know what was happening at the time.

I didn't quite understand what the hell was happening to me. But I just felt like I needed to get the hell out of there. So to actually come back to the UK and buy a house. You know, that's me not letting my roots define me and me retelling the story. and starting my life here because, you know, I do have my roots here and I want my kids to be able to have her roots here. And, you know, that's why I said, I said, oh, you know, I did it. And she said, I always knew you would.

And I said, I know, but I always knew. And she always just saw something in me that I didn't. And your kids now, Kissy Blue and Billy, how old are they? 21 and 23. They're not kids anymore. That is wild. Looking at you. You look 21.

Oh, thank you. It looks like you have such a beautiful relationship, and I just want to pay tribute to that. Because for anyone listening or watching this, who's going through a divorce or going through some crisis of identity, I think you, Kate, Kitty Blue and Billy, really show the way forward. Oh, well, thank you.

I mean, we just, mine and Kate's priority above what was going on with us was always just them and making sure they were okay and they were, you know, a focus of just having two great kids. And I think, you know, even at Christmas when I did come back, so although I had that nice moment with Kate, there was something that happened with my family where someone said something, a family member. And I was just taking back to being 12 years old again. It was just, I was really triggered. And I think a lot of people can relate to going home at Christmas.

And, you know, a lot of people have moved on or evolved. Some people don't. And it's fine. But it's just like, I felt very triggered. I need to get out of here. Like, he's just, I don't belong here. But my daughter, Kitty, actually had it. interaction with the same person and she said to me when we got back she's like dad you know i love you

and you know i just want you to respect this boundary i've got where i've never had the best relationship with this person and for me i just want to draw the line there and like respect that i just don't you know i will be polite but i don't want a relationship with them that's just my boundary and it's not as though it was a rash decision it's been a making in the years but for someone at 21 to feel like they can say like you know i can love someone from afar but if something isn't healthy for me, I can put a boundary in place that I don't want to be around it. I was so inspired. And I was like, wow, I think we did a good job. Yeah. You know, and I, because I wanted to go on a plane and go home and I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to do what she does. That's right. Yeah, she's

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Yeah, it just doesn't. Yeah, so how do you live with that? I don't know. I thought when I have enough money or when I have enough success, when I make it in America, when I work with this celebrity, when I have this much money, when I can buy this car, when I can buy this house. And then I got it and then I thought, oh, I still feel the same. you can externally like excite yourself and you know feel like you've had a win but if you're not

aligned internally you still have that sad feeling and you still have that lonely feeling and we still don't want to be on your own or you still get yourself into relationships because it's better than being alone you really just have to do the work and I think that was for me something I really wanted to consciously change I have a great therapist called John he's an amazing guy And I remember one day saying to him, I keep getting myself into the situation. And I really got to change it. I've got to stop what I'm doing, being attracted to things I'm attracted to. And he took me back as it was like the inner child work.

I don't know anyone listening. The inner child work is basically where you go back to a younger version of yourself. And it's just about connecting, really. That's what I took from it. I mean, I'm sure there's more of a technical way of framing it. But it's about connecting to you. who you are. And if you think about how you would talk to a little child, if they were going for a hard time or they felt alone or sad, you know, you'd hardly call them stupid or ignore them. You would comfort them and I would.

I would comfort them. Say, hey, you know, great. Don't worry about what the kids are saying to you at school. And you're going to be great, you know, and you get that kid a lift. But coming back to myself, you know, there's the technique where you basically see yourself as a kid and you talk to yourself. And I kind of realized, my therapist said, well, how does that little kid feel in this memory? And I thought, he just kind of feels sad and alone and not seeing. And he's like, well, what would you say to him? And it's like, oh, my God, I would tell him that one day, like, how he feels different now will be his superpower and, like, you're an amazing and, like, you're going to be okay.

And it's really weird. It kind of just, I just couldn't stop crying. And I just realized how mean I'd been to myself my whole life and also how I'd abandoned myself. I just left that little kid that felt alone and a bit different and not quite sure. And I just never let him explore. I never let him grow up.

I just became a version of myself that society told me to be or what I thought was the correct thing to do. And a lot of people do that about realizing it. I didn't realize I'd done it. That's why I felt so confused when I came out and stuff. I didn't realize I'd abandoned myself. I didn't realize that I'd left myself. And it wasn't until I connected back to that little kid.

that was just the beginning though that was the beginning of doing the work and healing and I wonder as well at the time that you were becoming ever more successful and known for your talent part of the reason was because you were surrounded by incredibly successful people was that hard

in a way that you're comparing yourself to this extraordinary metric of your client base not really I've always been like a sponge I'm just like, call me SpongeBob Squarepants. I've always just watched in awe and absorb, like, what makes them, what makes them successful? How do they take their losses?

How do they come back? How do they bounce back? Because life happens to all of us. It doesn't matter who you are, if you're famous or not. Envy can be a really dark-rooted thing and cause people to become very sad versions of themselves. You know, I see comments sometimes on social media, like, I spoke about this with a few I saw someone write a comment on, it wasn't even my page. It was the words page, they said, I hope you get cancer.

And I was like, oh my God, this is a really sad person, a really sad individual. But I think there's obviously some sort of jealousy or envy or something this person feels. And I talk about in the book trying to change, you know, jealousy with whether it be on, you know, social media. And you think, well, why is this person always got a great relationship? But why has this person got beautiful skin or this person seems to have it all? know instead of kind of going to a negative place more trying what i've always tried to do is use them as like a mentor of like well okay there's obviously something i like about what they've got or what they have or what they're doing and try and say well how did they do it and kind of research into what

their wins were what their failures were and when you look at that stop you really realize it's not an easy journey so i think it normalizes it makes it humanizes it and i think it also makes it a healthier place to be, to be able to sort of like look at all what they've got and how they got it and work towards something rather than just sit there on your sofa and be like, I could never, because you can, you know, I mean, I come from a small town, well, you know, it's medium-sized town in Leicester in England and I became, you know, known in Hollywood, you know, against the odds, you know, and if you work long enough and hard enough and you're focused enough, then it, change is possible, you know, and it's not overnight.

And none of my success was overnight. It's all been just little moments of leaprogging to the next thing. And then one day you get to a place where you're like, oh, I guess I did good. I guess I did the things I, you know, wanted to do. You're so right. And this podcast is all about sort of navigating those setbacks in order eventually to know yourself, which for me is the truest version of success. I wonder if I could ask you this because I'm a huge Kardashians fan.

And I think in so many ways Kim Kardashian and Chris Jenner have shaped modern culture and the history of America in the last 50 years. And I'm sure you're often asked about them and about their successes. But I would love to know what they have taught you about failure. Just that failure happens to everyone. But I think you have a choice and what you do with failure. And I think you can just be being down and give up or you can pick yourself up and dust yourself off and try again. You might have to try in a different way. I think it's just about failing isn't, you know, the end.

It can be the beginning of something new and something exciting. And it's about not giving up, which is giving up sometimes is the easy thing to do. I don't know. I think probably just that. You know, they're very inspirational to see what they've created and the empires that they've given. But everyone goes through life. No one gets, you know,

they get out of jail, card free, and, you know, just cruises and life's great. It's always, but sometimes the bigger your life is, the bigger the problems, you know. Have you ever drunk a Chris, Jenna Martini? No, I haven't. I've never had a drink with Chris.

I've had a shot with Kim. I've had several shots with Kim, but never Chris. Chris is an early glam guy. And I've only recently started doing Chris. It was only like when Kim went to do her robbery trial in Paris that I did Chris. And I know him for 10 years. I've known Chris.

She was around. It's never did her. And Kim said, okay, you do my mom. I'm in Paris. I said, yep. And everyone said to me, oh, she's, you know, she likes early glam. And I thought, oh, God. So then the call time was like five.

And they were like, she'll be on time, don't be late. So I got there at 4.45. I thought, oh, I'm so early. This is great. And I walked in the room. You're sitting in the chair already. She's like, oh, I'm late. And I'm okay, so good air.

She's like, just blow it out. And I'm like, blow it out. Like, I think wait 10 years. Yeah, just blow it out. And she just had that new face and the facelift. And she looked fantastic. And I thought, we got this new face. We can change her hair and do something different with hair.

She always had the same hair. You know, the short hair is great. And it's iconic. But why don't we do some different. And we did like just a bit longer in like a bob and like it was kind of slicked down and she did like a wet look. And she was like, wow, you know, and she really enjoyed something different. And it had such a response as well because people seem to say, Chris Jenner looks. You know, the internet kind of went crazy about how good Chris Jenner looked.

She actually got emotional. We did an event together and she said, you know, it's funny because I've just had this short hair my whole life. And Chris saw me and did something different and saw me different. And that was just so refreshing for someone to see you, you know. do something different. You know, we all, we all are not seen sometimes. And I think that's the power of the hairstylist. And they say, like, you know, the hairstylist is like a therapist when you sit in a chair. I think, you know, the power of change is, you know, even when you're Christiana, it's powerful. It touches you. And I think that's the beauty of my job and what I get to do. It's not just hair.

It's part of people's identity and how they carry themselves throughout the world. And, you know, I knew that when I did cancer patients and women lost their hair and I used to do these wigs and, try and make them look more natural. And these women would say to me, they'd rob lose their breasts and their hair and did these wigs. And, you know, they felt like they could fight cancer and go through their day and, you know, not look ill and, you know, take on the world. Because when they lost their hair, they lost their identity and they just couldn't see what was, you know, that was the most extreme version. But, you know, identity is very powerful. Definitely.

And I have a friend going through precisely that at the moment. And you're so right, as Fleabag says, hair is everything. Fleabag is this show written by Phoebe Waller Bridge it's a comedy show and there's a scene in it where her sister goes for a haircut

and she's convinced into an asymmetric bob and she emerges not the asymmetrical bob yes it was she looks like a pencil and there's this whole scene tissue I think it's a hairdress

let's do something artsy sometimes people got an asymmetrical bob not intentionally that's the worst when you get an unintentional And then you go in and they're like, a hairdresser were like, well, what it is, your head is wonky.

It's not the hair. You know, hairdresser's love to shit. Savage. Yeah, like you get the perfect colour. I love my colour. Same as last time. And then you go in the back and you realise you didn't write it down. So you guess the colour.

And then it comes out differently. Is it different? It's a colour looks different this time. They've changed the formula. It's changed the colour formula. I've definitely had that said to me. Yeah, bullshit. They just didn't write.

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The ultimate soldier. Chicago, all right? The best of the best stories now with even more from Hulu. Amazing. Have it all with D.U. your final failure is comparison which you've touched on yeah and again these are so highly relatable so that idea of measuring yourself by other people's timelines and as you put it to me comparing your chapter two to someone else's chapter 12 yeah i what do you think any of that

stemmed from being one of five children and right in the middle i think it's just natural to be to feel less than and to see people other people look like they have more. And social media made it just so much worse for people. I think social media is, for the power of full side of it, which has been very beneficial to my life. There is the element where you're flicking and constantly being, you know, subjected to information.

We're consuming so much. It's so easy to go envious and feel smaller because there's so much noise now. You know, but imagine taking your phone away. No one having phones and having the internet and having TikTok and having Instagram, probably would be a quieter life and probably wouldn't have as much anxiety because you're not as sort of stimulated by all this information

that's going on all the time. So when seeing images of perfect bodies or perfect hairstyles or perfect faces and how you can look better if you just have this procedure or if you take this medication or, you know, I always still get triggered by things. I'll still see things that I'm triggered by

or feel smaller than or less or whether it's a body type or whether it's a, you know, someone that seems like the perfect partner. But then I can kind of come back to myself and just, I know who I am and I know the work I've done on myself. And I'm all right with that. I'm comfortable to be looking at the mirror. I feel proud of who I am.

Like an ex-alcoholic, you know, they may, they've done the 12-step program. They may see a drink and think, oh, that looks pretty good. That wine looks nice. But once you've done the work, you're also then very much like, I know what that leads to.

That one is going to turn to two and then to turn on I'm just not going to go there. It's just not for me. So it doesn't mean you're not triggered and you're fixed, but you just learn that you're doing that thing you do where you compare on yourself

and it's a rabbit hole and you can come back to yourself, you know. And I have to say that as you say, there's so much noise and there's also some amazing stuff on social media and your hair video. for Color Wow. Changed my life.

They're so good and they're so effective because I went and bought those products. So you do a great job. I think there's something about the way that you share your knowledge. I think for me it's just really important when you do work with celebrities

and people are inspired by the looks, they want to know how to get them. So just breaking it down really and keeping it real. I'm like, all right, well, you don't look like Jolo, but this is how. Well, you don't look like Kim, but this is how.

And I think people are, oh, actually it's quite simple. Whereas, you know, I think the old idea of celebrity was so smoking mirrors and no one knew Hollywood secrets, whereas now social media shows you it. You want to look like Kim, this is how. You want to go blonde, this is how we did it.

Whereas before it was like, that was just for the rich and fameless. I also love that you're doing Martha Stewart now. Yeah, she's so funny. I didn't realize Martha was in her 80s. I thought she was like 60-something. And everyone kept saying to me, I did her hair, and I'm like, oh my God, she's so amazing.

I want to be like that when I'm her age. And I thought, how old is she? I went to my time. I was so shocked. She looks great. She looks amazing. Yeah, and she's so fun. She's really supportive.

And thankfully, my book became a New York Times bestseller. And, you know, she helped me with that. She did a podcast and we did fun little TikToks and stuff. She's just really fun person to work with. So Chris Appleton, this has been so great. Thank you so much for coming on her to fail. Final question. Yeah.

If you had to define yourself as a hairstyle, what would it be? Oh, I think it would be like a bombshell blowout Jello Super Bowl. It's like bouncy, fun, like sexy, you want to flip it and toss it and like, I don't know, has life and ambition. And, you know, my motto is to die with memories, not dreams. You know, I think something I have always just felt passionate that we're very lucky to be here and life is really short. and just try and live my best life, learn from my mistakes and my failures, and I've had many of them,

some very public, never make the same mistake twice. I think I try and learn. It's okay to make mistakes, but I think I love learning from them and understanding why we make those decisions and why we headed in that direction in the first place and how we can renavigate.

I like this roadmap idea. This is going somewhere. It's your next book. Yeah. I don't know if I'd do another book. Oh, go on. It's so much work. I know. I've loved it. I've really, really, really enjoyed it. And I've really loved connecting

with people about it. It's, to bring it to life, you really, really have to, I mean, I think I probably don't, I can't tell you how many podcasts I've done, how much sort of talking about it is. And I've, I've loved the experience. But it's, it's, it's part of you. You really put out there, you know, it really is something you give over to the world. Because it's not just like a glossy book. It's really real. And I think it's something I'm really proud of, things that I thought that I'd dealt with, when you're talking about them back to back and back to back over and over again, you wear it, you know, you carry it. It's like Adele when she says, you know, she sings these sad songs, you know, they came from a time in her life,

although she's healed and moved on and you got over it, singing it and those words and those feelings, you know, just, and I hope I never lose that because it shows, you know, your connection to those emotions. That's good, you know, because I don't ever want to become numb to any of it. I'm so grateful to you for coming on this podcast and speaking in such a beautiful and profound way. In the book, you talk about how hairstyles can be divided into three categories, the muse, the trendsetter, the icon. Chris Appleton, I think you're all three. Muse trendsetter icon, thank you so much for coming on hairs and fail. Thank you for having me.

Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything. Like packing a spare stick. I like to be prepared. That's why I remember 988. Canada's suicide crisis hubline. It's good to know just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder anytime. 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded by the government in Canada. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an

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