How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Dame Arlene Phillips - ‘I know the power of love’

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

Oh my. I can’t tell you how moving I found this interview. That doesn’t mean it’s a weepy one - sometimes, the most powerful exchanges are the ones where you witness the sheer strength it takes someone *no*t to cry. Dame Arlene Phillips is defined by her strength: strength of mind and of body (at 80, she’s still hard at work as a hit choreographer). You’ll know her as an internationally celebrated jazz and musical theatre legend, who has worked on some of the biggest-selling musicals in West End and Broadway theatre, as well as a number of blockbuster movies. But you might not know she lost her mum to leukaemia when she was just 15, had a challenging upbringing and had her second baby when she was 47 years old (she thought the pregnancy symptoms were signs of perimenopause).  Then in 2008, Dame Arlene was unceremoniously dropped as a judge from Strictly Come Dancing amid accusations of ageism. She only found out when it was reported on the next day’s radio news. We talk frankly about how this affected her - and how she’s never had an apology from the BBC. We also discuss Dame Arlene’s failure to become a ballerina and how this made her feel about her body, her fear of flying and her past inability to stand up for herself. WHAT. A. WOMAN. As always, I’d LOVE to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more.  Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. On my podcast, I discuss my guests' failures each week, seeking to understand what obstacles people have overcome and what, if anything, they've learned along the way. Because ultimately, our failures are lessons that help us understand success better. Before we begin, I just wanted to remind you about my subscriber series, Failing With Friends.

Today, Dame Arlene and I look at your questions and give our advice. We covered workplace bullying, how to progress your dancing career. To be fair, she had more to say on that than I did. How to juggle work, life and friendships and so much more. We would love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions. Dame Arlene Phillips is an internationally celebrated jazz and musical theatre choreographer.

She's worked on some of the biggest selling musicals in the West End and Broadway theatre, as well as a number of hit movies. She was the choreographer on the 1982 film Annie, and has created routines for music videos for luminaries such as Whitney Houston, Freddie Mercury and Elton John. In the 70s and 80s, her dance troupe Hot Gossip made headlines and TV appearances in equal measure and she became a household name. From 2004 she was an inaugural judge for Strictly Come Dancing for four years. Her illustrious career has lasted for over six decades and is still going. We're meeting on a Monday morning and last night Dame Arlene scooped an Olivier Award for her work on the choreography of a new

hit production of Guys and Dolls. Saw it, loved it by the way. She's currently touring the country with a revival of Grease. Having turned 80 last year she shows absolutely no signs of slowing down. It's a work ethic that has its roots in her early life. Born in Prestwich, Lancashire, the middle child of three, her family had little money and she took part-time jobs in order to fund her dance classes. At her first dance lesson, she recalls wearing green ballet shoes because the pink ones were too expensive. were too expensive. Despite now being a dame, she says she never felt posh at all. About to turn 81, she's still hard at it. I'm looking to make sure that everything I do will be as inventive, unusual or as different as can be, so I never have to repeat myself. Dame Arlene Phillips, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. I'm excited to learn how to fail. Well, you don't need any lessons from me in how to succeed. What an extraordinary

career. How are you feeling after the Olivier Awards last night? Absolutely incredible. On Cloud9, it really was unexpected. They were fantastic choreographers in the choreography awards list. And with James Cousins, who we worked together on Guys and Dolls, we were both absolutely bowled over. As a little girl in Presswich, Lancashire, did you ever imagine that you would be hard at work still at the age of 80? Not only did I ever imagine I would be working at my age of 80, but actually doing what is my passion, that that passion has developed into a lifetime of everything that I've loved because it's in dance. Tell us about how important work is to you and about some of those part-time jobs that you took along the way to becoming the dame that you are today.

What were the worst jobs you did? The worst of the worst was when I first came from Manchester to London and wanted to live in London. And that was difficult. You know, I couldn't imagine how I was going to survive because I had studied dance in Manchester. American teachers coming over with American jazz, which we didn't really know over here. And I studied with a teacher called Molly Malloy, who gave me a scholarship, but it didn't provide where I lived. Eventually, I found a place to live. And that was by working for the film director, Ridley Scott, who at that time was just starting his commercials company. And I helped take care of looking after his child and I helped clean the kitchen, whatever there was to do. And then I was offered a job in Dagenham, which was folding old army greatcoats. And all the greatcoats that had bullet holes were thrown into one big basket and all the

decent ones we had to shake out the mothballs dust them down and hang them on to a rail where they went to kensington market which had just opened and they were a fashion item and I smelt of mothballs like you can't believe so not only was the travel at the time I was living in East Sheen not only was the travel to Dagenham absolutely awful I had to be there at 7am but also that I would rush off at the end of the day to do a class with Molly Malloy and stink of mothballs. And I was so embarrassed and ashamed that, you know, that everybody was sort of moving away. But I stuck it out, you know, because I had to earn money. We'll come on to one of your terrible jobs as part of your failures. But I wonder if I could ask you about your damehood, because not only was it

awarded for services to dance, it was also charity work. And I know that you do a lot of charity work for Alzheimer's. Can you tell us why? When I was very young, and living in, you know, a two up, two down, mum, dad, three children in a not very nice street, which has now been erased, that entire area erased from where I was brought up in Manchester. You know, there were hard times. My dad wasn't a well man, so he was kind of in and out of work, a barber. And my mum was looking after us. She went to get a job in a school, selling the ice bundles in a school. It was really difficult. And I never thought that I would get anywhere or do anything that would lead to success in my life as a child.

So the last thing I ever, ever imagined, A, that I would be made a dame. But also, we had a little tin box, a charity box. And anything that we got, you know, whether it was a birthday present or any money that we got, we would always have to put something in the charity box. And I thought, you know, my parents were struggling, but they impressed on us, there are others far worse off. So I've grown up with a charitable instinct, but now my father had Alzheimer's. So the one thing about when you suddenly become, if you like, you can call it a celebrity.

So I thought, how can I actually use that for good? So I have been committed to charity work, children with cancer, Alzheimer's. People come to me for all sorts of things. And I think if I can make a step to help fundraise, why not? Wonderful. We're going to get onto your failures in a minute, but I wonder how much you have passed on that ethos to your two daughters one of my favorite things about you Dame Arlene is that you became a mother for the second time at 47 I love hearing that because you sit here as an embodiment of the power of wisdom let's not call it age of. And to become a mother at 47 is quite something.

Yes. My second child was completely unexpected. I was with, my partner had been for seven years or more, never, ever expected to get pregnant. I mean, it didn't even occur to me. I would have loved a second child, but just didn't get pregnant. And so when I found out that I was pregnant, I thought it was the menopause. So for four months, I did nothing about it, assuming that was it. And then I kept wondering why I was putting on weight and why I had morning sickness. They did not seem to resonate with symptoms of menopause. And I found out I was pregnant. And I was actually thinking, this is a gift. This is an absolute gift, unexpected. And why not? Absolute gift. Unexpected. And why not? When I found out I was pregnant, I went for my first checkup at a hospital nearby and they were just like, couldn't believe it. They said, oh, would

you mind? We've got a team of doctors. Can we follow your pregnancy? I thought, no, I need to be on my own for this. I need to adjust myself to it, this thought. They really thought I was a geriatric mother. They had no expectations that a woman of my age could actually be pregnant, naturally. And so I was a little uncomfortable throughout that pregnancy, actually, because it felt like I was some freak of nature. But now I think, yeah, you are. And you always have been because look at you getting up every morning to go to work at almost coming up to 81. You must be crazy.

So my daughters are the joys in my life. So my daughters are the joys in my life. And I do feel like my second daughter was a gift that came as a surprise. How beautiful. What was it like having a toddler when you were in your 50s? I actually grew to be the older mother and have confidence in it. I was shy of taking her to nursery. I was thinking everyone's going to think I'm her grandmother.

I was uncomfortable sort of joining in with the school mums. They all seemed so much younger. But actually, then I realised there were a couple of mums who also were not very, very young either. So I felt much better. I just felt I was the lucky one. I mean, we were talking before we started recording, I said how incredible your skin is. And you really do look remarkably young now. So I imagine you've always had that. And you very sweetly said that you as a teenager had oily skin and you think that's what it is. I do believe that, but I also had fat cheeks, which I hated.

And my second daughter, who looks just like me, has the same and disliked them intensely. I said, I promise you, you'll be so grateful. So grateful. Let's get on to your first failure. So your first failure is that in your mind heart and body these are your words you grew up wanting to be a ballerina tell us why you chose this as a failure I dreamed of being a ballerina I'd seen Charlie Chaplin's Limelight and been taken to the ballet, to see Russian ballet

at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester. And for me, it was where I wanted to escape to. I wanted to have beautiful arms. I wanted to dance to music. I wanted to go on point. It felt to me a life where you could take away hardship and live in a dream world. So that was all I ever wanted to do. Every book I got from the library, everything was to do with ballet. What I didn't realize at the time is classical ballet physique in itself is, yes, you have a choice to dance. Of course you do, whatever shape or size you are. But it's much harder in classical ballet because there are certain things where your body has to have a free flexibility, a simple, beautifully balanced body, you know, shoulders to waist, waist to hips, legs. That was not me. And certainly in the ballet school that I eventually got to, it favoured the ballerinas in a way today would be so shocking. Then it was just accepted. You accepted it.

Why would it be shocking today? What kind of things would they say? Well, there was a front row. And on that front row were all the beautifully, classically shaped dancers who had exquisite limbs that could do moves that, you know, having their leg up by their ear, not short, stocky, strong, absolutely dancers like me working so hard. But I had a best friend called Olga and we were both the same, both solid, really solid, and not given, however hard we worked, the beautiful classical body. We were separated. All the girls at the front, or the front two rows, wore pink leotards. All seemed to be so perfect in my eyes, the way they looked.

And we, who were not perfect, were put on the back row in our black leotards. So the difference between being liked or even loved for what you can do didn't reach the back row. And to this day, Olga is still one of my best friends and we still talk about it wow what does Olga do now um she probably doesn't work no no I'm just thinking everyone's day Molly okay Olga doesn't work what did she do did she become a dancer she became a teacher as I did at first we both became teachers you know they say if you're not going to be a dancer, then teach. Well, it really does happen in the ballet world because you can express everything you want. You can teach everything you want

because you know how to achieve everything so you can work with the beautiful dancers, which I did. But I remember all of the front row eventually went off to the Royal Ballet School or Elmhurst Ballet School, whereas we didn't have a hope. I didn't realise it at the time. I just kept thinking the harder I worked, the easier it was going to be, but it was never going to be easy. What knock-on effect did that have in terms of how you saw your own body,

how you felt in your own body my own body wasn't good enough my own body would not do the things I kept telling it to do my own body would never look the way having your leg let's say in an arabesque at the back where the beauty of the line is absolutely stunning. When you've got a big bum, it doesn't look quite so beautiful. You can be brilliant. I mean, I could jump like no one else in the room. I could spin, turn, pirouette like no one else. But in the end, overall, it doesn't happen. You know, when you discover contemporary dance or other forms of dance, the body doesn't be a necessity. It's an accessory.

Yes. And is that when you made peace with your body, when you discovered modern jazz? Or maybe you're not at peace with your body, when you discovered modern jazz? Or maybe you're not at peace with it still. I don't know how you feel. I've always dreamed. And when I say I've always dreamed, I mean literally dreamed that I was at the bar and it was me, except I was with a different body. Wow. That dream sometimes still comes back. Of course, I eventually accepted my body. I tried to build on its limitations and use the power that I had. And I became, when I kind of went over to modern jazz,

became an incredibly powerful dancer. When I kind of went over to modern jazz, became an incredibly powerful dancer. I got claps and cheers in class just because of things I could do, which were unique to me. But it wasn't at that time the freedom of the way we use dancers now. It didn't really quite happen then. Everything on television, which is one of the reasons I actually started a dance group, Hot Gossip, everything on TV was about perfection, beauty,

all of the things which I guess, you know, in the end with Hot Gossip, I built it on stunningly beautiful male-female dancers. But I was never really, truly happy with my own body. It was never as perfect as I would have loved it to be. Are you happy with it now? You know, I look back at photographs of myself, not so much as a teenager, but probably in my late 20s, 30s, where I still did not love either who I was or what I was physically. And I think, what was I thinking? I see those photographs in such a different light. You know, sometimes I'll post something on Instagram and everybody goes, like, like, like, like, like, like, like. And I thought, why did I waste my life actually disliking everything about my face,

my body? Why did I waste my time? What was I seeing? Whereas now I'll proudly post those photographs. The mindset in many ways is a terrible thing. Take me back to your childhood. You touched on it earlier. You're the middle of three. It was a difficult upbringing in terms of not being that much disposable cash. And your mother got very ill when you were a teenager. Do you mind telling us about that? that? I usually can talk about it kind of in the past, you know, steadily, but I think it affects me kind of more now as I get older and, you know, and I've got grandchildren and the kind of realization. We didn't tell my mum that she was dying. We all decided to keep it a secret. My sister was only 12 and we didn't want her to know, which now she feels she should have been allowed to know, but we thought we were protecting her. It was hard. My mum got leukaemia. I was 15. I do remember that there was very little known about the disease.

She was in Manchester Royal Infirmary, in and out, having blood transfusion. Now I think about it, there was always chaos because no one quite knew what leukaemia was and why this ward was gradually filling up with more patients with this same disease. My older brother, who was 17, went out to work because my dad, who was a barber, was getting blood clots, so he wasn't well. My life, actually, at that time, with no help, no one to talk to,

it was hard. It was really hard. with no help, no one to talk to. It was hard. It was really hard. My mum was one of those people. My dad was strict and got cross and, you know, there were hard times. My mum was the gentlest, sweetest soul. And I remember the first thing that went into my head when I knew my mum was dying is I had very painful periods. Who would put their arms around me and make me feel better? And that was my first thought. And I thought often now that my god that was the most selfish of things to think about but she was someone that could put her arms around you and make everything in the world feel

better which I do and did with my daughters and my granddaughters. I know the power of love, real love. And so I just, I use it. But you can't have something like that happen in your life without feeling a tremendous guilt. I wanted, you know, to go to school. I wanted to go to dance school. Didn't want to miss lessons. Somebody had to stay at home with my mom.

And I wanted, you know, it not always to be my turn. And I know my mom wanted me to be with her. And I didn't always stay. I didn't always give her everything that I could have because I guess being 15 at that time is very different to being 15 today where we expect everybody and we see kids growing up so fast. We certainly were not growing up so fast, we certainly were not growing up so fast. So it was really hard.

I'm so sorry you went through that. And I'm so sorry for your loss. And I think you're very hard on yourself. I don't think that thought about your periods and who was going to comfort you is at all selfish. I think actually, it demonstrates what a kind, loving mother you had. And although I can understand the guilt because so many of us are riven by it, it was entirely misplaced. And I'm sure your mother absolutely knew that and was so grateful for the time that she did have with you. And you clearly did so much for her and you're a living testament to her love. And thank you for the time that she did have with you. And you clearly did so much for her. And you're a living testament to her love. And thank you for talking about that so beautifully.

Was dance an escape from all of this? Dance was the place I wanted to live my life. I had to dance. I had to be in a studio. This was a world that I treasured. And luckily, I felt I could capture all the magic. So yes, it was the home that I loved rather than the home that was difficult. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit.

Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct.

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many follow let me say this on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts watch new episodes on youtube or listen to let me say this ad free by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So you do eventually get to London through sheer force of will and this incredible work ethic that you have. And this brings us to your second failure, which is that in 1966, you saw an ad in the stage newspaper for an audition for Fiddler in the Roof. What happened next?

Okay, so I wanted to go on audition for a musical. I'd seen West Side Story. It was life-changing. It was jazz in the very, very, very best way. And there was an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. And I wanted to do this audition. I thought, right, singing lessons, took singing lessons and started to develop my mind to being in a musical theatre show. And what better way to begin that career by auditioning. So my audition song was I'm Just a Girl, You Can't Say No.

I didn't think I could really sing, but I did the first dance audition, which was huge, a lot of people there, and I felt at one with Fiddler on the Roof. It felt the movement was something that I could think, I could feel. And I got through that first audition and then we were asked to sing. And to my surprise, my absolute surprise, got through the singing audition. So the morning was spent dancing and singing, lunch break, and I was asked to come back at two o'clock. The most unfortunate thing in the world was my shift in this miserable cafe where I worked started at two o'clock. So I took a deep breath.

The auditions were in Covent Garden. The cafe was in Floral Street, Covent Garden. I'm going to run to the cafe and beg them to put someone else in for my shift. No, was the answer. Absolutely no. If you walk out of that door, this will not be a job you could come back to. And I was too afraid. I thought, my gosh, if I don't get the show, what am I going to do? I'm going to have nothing to live off.

I'm going to have to find another job. How am I going to do that? I'm dependent on my salary. It's Wednesday and I have to pay my rent on Friday because I'd moved out of Mindy Scott's. I was sharing a flat and I did not have the courage. I just, as I was being screamed at, just went into my shell and went, it's okay, there'll be something else.

You don't need Fiddler on the Roof. But I did need Fiddler on the Roof but I did need Fiddler on the Roof it should have been my show and I could have smashed that choreography the second time around I knew it was my style my everything so I think of it as a failure in myself to not have the courage to believe enough in myself to say thank you very much and walk out of that door. Do you think you got that courage later in life? Do you think you have it now? I think I have actually a lot of courage

and a lot of courage to stand up to people. But sometimes, even now, I don't. I give in because I just want, if somebody is really angry and demanding and shouting, I just want the world to be peace and calm and try to think that everything I'm asking for isn't a matter of life and death. I excuse myself because I didn't stand up for myself. And actually, not standing up for myself is actually not the right thing. I need to, even now sometimes, just stand firm.

I think a lot of women will relate to this. And I wonder, going back to that horrible cafe boss, the man, how much of it was to do with men being angry at you and whether that reminded you of something in your upbringing? The hardest thing for me in life is men shouting or demanding or pushing because my growing up with a very strict, angry dad, and believe me, I know why, because his mum died when he was very young. His father married again. And honestly, archetypal wicked stepmother who did not want him in the house. She had a son of her own.

And my goodness, if my father was strict, she was ten times stricter. And just having to go and visit her. And I know this sounds surreal, but it's absolutely true. She had a little white poodle and that white poodle, we would go to the house. And I remember it was when, you know, tinned peaches, it was rations. You couldn't get tinned peaches. She would feed the dog the tinned peaches and the chicken. And when we got bread and butter at the dining table, the three kids. So at the age of 14, she threw him out of the house.

He got articled to a barber, which is why he became a barber. He had a really, really, really tough life. And I don't think when you have a tough life, anything in future life, even, you know, marrying my, you know, loving, gentle mum, nothing works. Nothing works for you. When he was a kid, there used to be the thing called the pitch and toss when he was working at the barbers where they would go out and it was a gambling game. He became addicted to gambling and in it's really harsh. And so I do now, and particularly as I got Alzheimer's,

as he got older and became the sweet, sweet, sweet man he'd never been, I find that breaks my heart. But if you don't have a happy childhood, it's hard to turn your life around, I think. So that fear of men shouting at you, and I totally get it, but how prevalent was that kind of dynamic then? When you enter this world of dance and choreography and this show business universe,

which is still very dominated by men in those times, I imagine. What was that like for you? Did you encounter it there? It was interesting because when I first started to choreograph, I was usually the only female member of a creative team. It was all men. And I definitely have worked with, wow, some different producers or directors who are so brutal. Brutal sort of to everyone, but particularly to women. everyone, but particularly to women. Oh my gosh, I've had all kinds of men just like blow up like a firework has gone off in front of your eyes, just like that. It is shocking and it does ignite fear in me. But then I think that when I was first a choreographer and certainly with Hot Gossip, I was really strict and I guess really

harsh. I have so many people who have thanked me for everything I've taught them. And usually they were the ones that I was the hardest with because I would see this amazing potential. And I wanted to change their mindset for them to realize what talent they have, how brilliant they could be, and to work hard for it because that's the only way you can often become who you want to be. I now have a very different approach to the way I work, but I suppose it was also a time

where people felt that they could shout at people with no reason, even. Just because you were in a bad mood, you could suddenly go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Do you think you were, in a way, teaching your younger self? When you were hard on these people, when you could see the talent and you wanted them to have the courage to do it, was there part of you that was trying to teach yourself that? with the excitement of seeing someone that I believed in blossoming and flourishing. Because I know with words, you can change people's lives. You can change people's way of thinking about themselves and seeing a future that they dreamed of, but never imagined they the ones to have it. So maybe it was a repeat of

myself, but it certainly felt like the most satisfying thing to people that I have seen and I know from what I have said and the work that I've done with them have made an impact on them. With words, you can change someone's life that is such a great saying it also brings us on inevitably to strictly because I imagine you can never do a single interview without being asked about it so I'm sorry but we're going there because it encapsulates so much of what you've been talking about what you loved about teaching and maximising other people's potential. Did you feel that you could bring that to the judging role on Strictly? I really felt that with some, and I'm not saying all of the celebrities, that I hope my words

inspired them. I've had kind of amazing successes because I know that my words have changed the way they think, the way they come back, the advice I've given them about what they need to change to be successful in the show. I know with Strictly, I was both a loving judge and a harsh judge. They were both there. And again, I know with my words and advice, I could bring the best out of people. But sometimes I also was particularly harsh on people, both good and those who were not so good. I think there's a very different way,

a very different concept of how we encourage people and we encourage everybody. And certainly when Strictly began, I was kind of positioned in this role of being the harsh, only allowed to wear black jackets kind of judge. Was that a thing? You were only allowed to wear black? I pretty much only was allowed to wear black? I pretty much only was allowed to wear black jackets. Yes. I had two posh ones, designer ones, and the rest came from Next or M&S or wherever. Yes. And you're sort of positioned in this role. And believe me, judging on Strictly is role-playing. It's role-playing for everyone.

It was and it always has been. But I do think sometimes I was harsh and critical and in some ways I wish I hadn't used that word or hadn't used a particular phrase or saying just to be smart. As I look back, you know, I wanted to be honest and fair all the time. But I think you probably also wanted to do your job because you always have. You've always been a very hard worker who has always wanted to please your employer. Gosh, I think I've never thought of it that way. But yes, yeah, I have always wanted to be good at what I do. And therefore, for those layers

above, I've always listened to. Is there one contestant that sticks in your mind as someone who you thought was a beautiful dancer? I think, I just, I mean, I think of two people. Rachel Stevens really could have been a beautiful dancer. She was and has had some training, so therefore she had the skills. But I have never worked with anyone who so undermines herself. No realisation of how stunning she really was and how good she could be. She really lacked confidence. And not only

when I was judging, but I actually knew her husband because he was at the same school as my oldest daughter. And they knew each other. And I felt like I could give her advice because she needed it. I think the other one was Mark Ramprakash, who I just thought was an absolute delight. And for sure, I thought, you could win. You just need to change your mindset. You left Strictly after four years. There was a huge row about it at the time.

The BBC denied it was ageism, although Harriet Harman certainly thought it might have been and brought it up in Parliament. And it was handled quite badly. You found out when a radio station called you up to ask how you felt about it. And it does seem to me to be a real loss to the show. But I wonder how you feel about it now, looking back on that time. It's interesting you use the word left the show. I didn't leave the show. I was uninvited to return. And I think there's a big difference. If I had left the show, it would have been my choice. I actually feel, even to this day, I wish it had been discussed. I wish that they had come to me and said, we're not going to keep you on and what the reasons were. And then I could adjust myself to it. There was no chance to do that. So that's my biggest sort of look back. And

I don't know, I probably would have felt the same way to be let go and known about it rather than find out from an early morning radio show that I was being replaced and who was replacing me. It was such a shock. I woke up. It was very early in the morning, opened the blinds. The street was full of reporters, cars, cameras. And I thought, what is this? I mean, surely, you know, no one's told me about this. They're not here because I'm not going to be on the show. I've just been given the news. So it really shook me to the roots. I was disappointed.

I was upset. I felt I had no way of balancing this. My manager of many, many years, Michael Somerton, had passed away the previous day from cancer. So I don't feel that I handled it in the right way because suddenly this kind of well of emotion and fighting to make sure that the real loss of somebody who had taken care of my career for years and years and years and who I loved had passed away, mixed with losing the job. So there's that sense of guilt immediately. What are you crying about? Adjusting to it was hard. Why? I don't really know. But the truth is, I just don't think they thought I was good

enough. That's the truth about it. That's what really hurts. Because I felt like I was a good judge. And had I been disillusioned of that, maybe that would have helped. But there was no real strong answer. The strongest answer that came, we are refreshing the brand. And I didn't have a contract, so therefore it was their right to do so. But it still hurt. Well, for what it's worth, I thought you were a brilliant judge and more than good enough. And it sounds like that's something that you struggle with, that feeling of internally really believing that you're good enough. It's interesting that you talk about Rachel Stevens and that being an issue potentially for her. Has anyone from the BBC or from the show ever explained, apologised, reached out?

Certainly no one's apologised, reached out? Certainly no-one's apologised. We did go for meetings two, three weeks after, but it was just, what can we offer you instead? Nothing at all about any reason. Brutal. Nothing. Your daughters must have wanted to protect you. Everyone wanted to protect me, my family, my friends,

but no one can actually lift your spirits but yourself. You know, I always tell performers who want to go into theatre, you know, because they dance, because they sing, or whatever career they want. They want to go to study full time. And I tell them the one thing you need is courage enough to face rejection almost every day. You audition and sometimes your auditions can be nine auditions and you're down to the last two people standing in a room and you're not the one that gets it and you have been going to audition after audition.

So allow yourself, go home, cry, eat whatever you like that day and then go, I'm going to do this again. And if you can't do that and you can't face rejection, don't do it. Don't do it because that's what you're going to get. And what you need to do is know whether you can stand up to that. Amazing advice. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest. This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened I'm Lee Alec Murray, and I'm also that person. I'm Nick Friedman.

And I'm Leah President, and we invite you to take your sonic knowledge to the next level by listening to our show, Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. Learn about how Yeji's latest album was actually born from her own manga. I started off with not even the music. I started off by writing a fantastical story. Or how 24K Golden gets inspired by his favorite opening themes. There are certain songs that I'm like, whoa, the melodies in this are really amazing.

No idea what bro's saying at all, but I'm jacking these melodies. And you know, I hear Megan Thee Stallion is also a big anime fan. So Megan, do you want to trade AOT hot takes? We're here. Listen every Friday, wherever you get your podcast, and watch full episodes on Crunchyroll

or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Your final failure is your fear of flying. Have you always had this fear of flying? Because I'm someone, I didn't used to have it, but the older I get, the more fearful I am of turbulence specifically. I didn't fly, I think, until I was, gosh, 26 years old. And my first flight was a bumpy little plane to Spain with a friend. And I was so sick.

I mean, so sick. I had to lie down on the floor of the flight. And it was bumpy and I didn't feel safe. I thought, I'm going to die. Well, that continued and I tried not to fly as much as I could. But once I had my first daughter, Alana, from that moment, all I thought about is I don't want to do anything that could take my life and not be with her, watching her grow. And that was it. And even flying with her, I would be hysterical. The fear just grew and grew and grew. I never felt safe. I panicked. I actually destroyed myself with angst and worry and fear that

occasionally there were times when I said no to amazing jobs because I knew I couldn't get on a flight. And I behaved so badly, putting my fear into not just daughter one, but then into daughter two. I actually had hypnosis with Paul McKenna and managed to get onto two flights where something spectacular had happened, but it didn't last. And I think of the hours of life I have wasted getting in an aeroplane and suffering to such a degree. If I could take all those hours back, I think I would be a better woman. So do you not fly anymore? I do. And I think I'm calmer as I get older.

I think I'm calmer as I get older. I think I have got my, I don't know, lucky symbols that I carry everywhere with me, stupid things that I feel like will keep me safe. I kind of get on with it in a much calmer way. I don't enjoy it, but I feel much calmer and my children aren't children anymore. My children are grown-ups. My granddaughters are the children and I would never want to do to them what I did to my daughters, ever. I wonder as well, this is going to be such an inelegant and maybe rude question, but that fear of flying being so associated with the fear of dying. And now that you are in your 80s, do you have to think about the reality of dying more? And does that help you feel calmer? I think about the reality of dying all the time. I think of a father with Alzheimer's, a mother with blood cancer. Those things are living within me. I think I have bounded along all the way up to the age of 80, inside never feeling 80. Being 80 has made me stop and question, how long do I have? I don't want to dwell on it. I want to live life to the full. I want to absolutely set myself up for whatever may happen, organize my life,

take time off, say no to things so I can organize life, organize everything and set it up and lay it out. I suppose that's me trying to stay in control to the last second. But I do think more about it. And I do think, how long will I have with my grandchildren? Which is why, when I'm with them, I will play any game. I will crawl on the floor. I will hide under tables. I will draw.

I will read. I will whatever they want, because I want to be the grandma they remember. Dame Arlene, I can't imagine you ever not being around. I really can't. And there's that fabulous strong body of yours, helping you do all of those things. We're so grateful to it and to you for bringing joy to us all, to the nation and i wanted to end actually on a on another quote that i found of yours which i loved when the roller coaster goes down find the up and i think that really embodies so much of what we've been talking about today i can't thank you enough for your openness and your emotion and your courage. Thank you so much, Dame Arlene Phillips, for coming on How To Fail.

Thank you. It means a lot actually sitting here with you. It really does. Don't forget, we've got more with Dame Arlene over on my subscriber series, Failing With Friends. To everyone out there, here's a taster. A great exercise is put your pods in your ears and actually walk. And within that walk, challenge yourself to stand up straight, to feel bold, to feel courage rising inside you as you walk to the music.

And it can be music that you love from classical music, a march. It can be a pop song. But actually sort of feel yourself being bold. Walk past people, head held high, and then make that impact live with you. high and then make that impact live with you and remember to follow us to get new episodes as they land on spotify amazon music apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and please share a link with everyone you know this is an elizabeth day and sony music entertainment original podcast thank you so much for listening.