How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Denise Welch - I Got Sober For Love

Starting point is 00:00:00 If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb, and if you do, you will never have depression again. I would have offered both arms like that. And to be honest, I still would. I don't know the person that I was now that I'm 13 years sober. I'm 67 years old and I'm driving along thinking, my God, I'm driving. I've actually passed my desk. Hello and welcome to How to Fail. This is the podcast that believes that most failure can teach us something meaningful if we let it.

Starting point is 00:00:28 And before we get into this episode and this conversation, I would love it if you could follow and subscribe to the show because it really, really does help. So just tap that button now and I will be forever grateful. Is it the matcha or am I this energized from scoring three Sephora holiday gift sets? Definitely the sets. Full size and minis bundled together. What a steal. And that packaging is so cute. It practically wraps itself.

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Starting point is 00:01:13 That's annoying. What? You're a muffler. You don't hear it? Oh, I don't even notice it. I usually drown it out with the radio. How's this? Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:21 Way better. Save on insurance by switching to Bell Air Direct and use the money to fix your car. Bell Air Direct, Insurance, Simplified. Conditions apply. Nice Welsh grew up in Whitley Bay in a family of confectioners. As a child, her habit of turning up to birthday parties with large bags of mixed toffies made her a popular guest. The popularity has lasted and grown into her adulthood, even if the sweets haven't. After years as a successful and award-winning actor, appearing in long-running soap such as Coronation Street and Waterloo Road, as well as in acclaimed theatrical productions, well as in Welsh became a regular panellist on ITV's flagship panel chat show, Loose Women. She won Celebrity Big Brother in 2012, and after speaking openly about her own experiences with depression and addiction, is also a mental health ambassador. She's been married three times, has two sons, one of whom is Matty Healy, the frontman of the 1975, and is now with the contemporary artist Lincoln Townley, whom she credits with helping her get sober.

Starting point is 00:02:26 But this potter biography can only go so far because there's something else about Denise too, something more intangible. It's a warmth, an ability to voice what many of us are thinking combined with a sense of having seen it all before but never having lost her joy or sparkle. It's the knowledge that she's lived through hard times but kept her fabulousness intact.

Starting point is 00:02:52 It is, in short, that she's a total hun. As one interviewer put it, the Grand Dam of Hun Culture. Some people won't be outspoken about something because they're so terrified, Welsh says. If I think I'm right about something, I don't care what people think of me. Denise Welsh, welcome to how to fail. Thank you. You are so good at those introductions. You're the queen of the introduction. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I wanted to ask if you have always been like that. You've always been someone who, if you think what you're saying is right, you don't mind what other people think of you.

Starting point is 00:03:33 It's funny, Elizabeth, because I'm actually the world's worst people pleaser in my real everyday life. But on television with the forum like loose women, I am not scared of cancel culture. Yeah, if I am really committed to what I think, you know, on a panel of women who say, To throw an example in the air is my sort of Harry and Megan Ferva. You know, I've always flown the flag for them. Pretty much exclusively me on that panel. I don't care what Doris from Darlington on X thinks. They are my beliefs and how I feel.

Starting point is 00:04:12 And I'm not bothered about being in the minority. Talk to me about being a hun, because when I was trying to describe it in the introduction, it's hard, isn't it? It is very, very hard to do. It is this esoteric quality. Do you like being called a hun? I do. I embrace it. I have to because when you are on, when you are featured on the Instagram page, Love of Huns, and Katie Perry likes it, who doesn't even know you, you think, right, okay, this is quite cool to be a Hun.

Starting point is 00:04:42 Recently, I'm jumping ahead, but recently I was overjoyed to be at Charlie XX and George's wedding. And that elevates your Hun status through the absolute youth. Yes. She's the supreme leader of Hans in many ways. She is the supreme leader. And, of course, it was hilarious at the wedding because I was, you know, taking photos with lots of the guests and things. And then, you know, when we were allowed, I'd put them on Instagram. And people are going, oh, my God, have you seen who she's in the photo with? And I didn't have an absolute clue with these young people.

Starting point is 00:05:16 Was it an amazing wedding? It was one of the nicest weddings that I've ever been to. It was in Sicily. And considering that everywhere my husband, Lincoln and I have gone this year, We've taken the heat, left the heat wave here and taken the heatest weather abroad. It was a beautiful three-day event in a gorgeous place. And considering there was the cool of coolness of people there, it was the most unpretentious lovely wedding. But then that's kind of down to Charlie and George, you know.

Starting point is 00:05:45 I've known George since he was 12 because he's Matty's best friend. I read this thing that you said about the 1975 that they used to rehearse in your house and you couldn't wait to be rid of them. to be rid of that and now you you crave them coming back well that's it i mean they started matty started the band at high school he was at wilmslow high school which is in cheshire and um so we'd move down from the northeast i used to live in london we moved back to the northeast when i was pregnant and everything went tits up that which i'm sure we'll cover and um and then coronation street took me to cheshire and so when they were about 12 mattie started the

Starting point is 00:06:25 band and we had these kind of um garages and sort of outbuildings and they were just taken over so for years we had i'd wake up in the morning and i'd be stepping over bodies and matt would go oh mom this is um this is airship who were another band you know so i'd step over airship to go to work this is you and me at six or something and i'd step over you and me at six And they started there They would eat there What was lovely was that because that was the hub of their band rehearsals Even though it was years before anything happened

Starting point is 00:07:04 They would all the girlfriends came there Whereas often with boys The boys go to the girlfriend's house And without having a daughter it was quite nice And then of course Louis There's 12 years between my boys Same dad 12 years in between And then of course they've got this little toddler

Starting point is 00:07:22 who's trying to knock on and standing longingly outside the rehearsal room wanting to be in the band. And then when they were about 22, 23, chocolate, one of their signature songs, and one of the first songs Matty and George wrote, took off. And there was no, oh, you're going to university. You know, we know a year in advance what's going to happen. They were just gone. And they were gone internationally. and then that was that was tough obviously I had a I had a little one as well

Starting point is 00:07:56 so that kind of filled the gap but it was it was hard because I knew that life would never be the same they're not going to come back at weekends and have their washing done well it wouldn't have got done but in principle they wouldn't board it back is it emotional when you see him on stage yeah I can't even imagine as a mother no it is it's very emotional and obviously I'm hugely proud it comes Elizabeth with, if I'm perfectly honest, along with the emotion, it comes with a lot of GLS, I call it, which is guest list stress. So I always am the person responsible for the guest list, even though I try not to be.

Starting point is 00:08:36 And you go somewhere like the O2 and you're trying to just, you know, you're in the box or the area wherever you are and you're just looking forward to it. and then somebody several people call hello yeah hi we're at the o two where do we park i don't run am i allowed to swear on this yes you are um i don't own fucking oh two you know hi we're at door b but they're saying door a and sue's got the gold band but i've only got the i've only got the there is that but yes of course it's very emotional and sometimes when there's 20,000 people again at the O2, for example, I want to scream, you're all here because of me. Yes. 42 hours of labour pushing him out.

Starting point is 00:09:25 Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, the adulation you deserve. Absolutely. It's incredible. I mean, I used to scream at them to shut up with the songs. And now when they sing them, I'm thinking, that's my pension.

Starting point is 00:09:41 Yeah. See out, Louise. Your first failure, I've kind of switched around the order a bit. So, Denise, you did this incredibly generous thing. You gave me four, where you were only required to give me three. But they're all brilliant, so I'm going to do them all. Your first failure is that you failed to become a domestic goddess. Did you want to be a domestic goddess?

Starting point is 00:10:03 My probably level of what is a domestic goddess is probably just maybe cleaning the kitchen and wiping the benches down. But seriously, I look at some people who are the same age as me, younger than me, similar sort of lifestyle, and they'll show what they've done for a dinner party. And they've got the napkins and they've got the centre thing down the middle of the table and they've got the lighting and they've gone and got the plant and the flowers and the cutlery and everything. I just can't do it, Elizabeth. I just don't feel like I've grown up enough to have that kind of dinner party. Yeah. Like I still sometimes am driving along and I want to go, God, I've actually passed my driving test. I've never had anything so relatable.

Starting point is 00:10:50 When I have people in the car with me, I'm like, I can't believe that I'm the boss of this car. I'm the boss of this car. I know. I'm 67 years old and I'm driving along thinking, my God, I'm driving. I've actually passed my test. And I get that with the sort of domestic goddessness. I am busy in my work. but naturally I'm incredibly lazy

Starting point is 00:11:11 I'm what Lincoln calls a sloth so my blanket that I have on me on the sofa is my sloth blanket because he said I look like remember that Neil the sloth from those furniture advert I can sloth out for nine hours at a time and possibly not even go to the toilet and if I had a bedpan I probably wouldn't go for another nine hours never say never yeah never say never

Starting point is 00:11:36 But I just feel I've failed at the cooking dinners. I did cook for my children because they're alive. But how people do chicken wrapped in something stuffed with this? It's just, it might be ADHD. I don't know what it is. I find this so interesting, given your age, you're 67, is that one? You look fabulous. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:12:04 I want an entire breakdown of the skincare regime. But there's something very interesting about that age group and when you grew up the kind of socially conditioned role that women were allowed to have and maybe your mum had and the pressure of that and I think there's something quite radical about your refusal to do that. Well, my mum, she wasn't the best cook in the world

Starting point is 00:12:30 but she didn't really do guilt my mum if she felt she was right about something. Whereas I have been plagued with it all of my life. And in spite of her Irish Catholic background. No, she didn't. No, she didn't conform to any. She didn't conform to any of that. She was quite a rebel, my mum.

Starting point is 00:12:46 Yeah, so you had this sort of strong female role model. Yeah, absolutely. I'm interested in how much this domestic goddessry or lack of played into your relationships and your marriages. I read this beautiful thing that you said, and I could not agree more, that you and Tim, Matty and Louie's dad. Yeah, that I'm still friends with. You're still friends with. You don't regard your marriage as a failure because you had 20 plus years of a married life

Starting point is 00:13:14 and these two wonderful sons. So just because it ends doesn't make it a failure. Yeah, I kind of refuse to think of it as a failure because it would have been an obvious one too. I had a first marriage, which was it was a first marriage and it didn't work out. And thankfully there were no children around and, you know, my marriage to Tim, as you just said, was 24 years. Should we have possibly split up earlier? Maybe. But we did what we thought was best like people do. You stay for the kids. Da-da-da-da. And I refuse to think of it as a failure because we have two wonderful children that came out of that. He was a wonderful man in many ways,

Starting point is 00:13:53 especially with living with someone with mental illness like I've had for 36 years. I think that's another reason why people who are poorly stay, because you think maybe no one else will ever understand your illness. And we have maintained a friendship. Of course, there was a, when it ends, there was a lot of bumps in the road. We didn't go straight from ending a marriage to being really good friends. But we are now, you know, Tim and his wife Joe, myself and Lincoln, we all Christmas together, you know, even though the kids are grown. I remember once a few years ago, I think probably Lincoln had said to Louis, oh, make you, mum, something nice for her birthday and Louis had kind of done this this notepad and put some photos in and whatever and he'd

Starting point is 00:14:41 put a picture of me and dad his dad and he put um oh it catches me that he put um thank you for still loving this man and I just realized that the fact that I do still means such a lot to my children even though they're grown and asking them they probably think yeah we're glad that you are both happy now in marriages that suit you more now. Beautiful. I want to talk more about Lincoln later on. But before we move on to your second failure, because it's a big one,

Starting point is 00:15:15 and I want to give it the respect of enough time. Talk to us about your ADHD, because you mentioned it in passing there, but it's quite a recent diagnosis. It is. It's only about three and a half years, I would say, something like that. And the diagnosis came about because Nadia Sawala,

Starting point is 00:15:32 are one of my friends and colleagues on loose women, suspected that she was very ADHD and that her daughter's work. So she spoke to our producer, Sally, whose husband, Henry, Shelford, is very high up in the ADHD world. I'm thinking of being tested. Sally said, if we get you tested, would you be happy to be filmed and we'll use it as a piece?

Starting point is 00:15:53 Yes, absolutely, whatever the result. When they mentioned this to ADHD 360, this company, and said, you know, we have about 20 loose women all together. there's some work on the show more than others, but across the board, probably about 20. And one of our girls suspects that she has ADHD and they said, is it Denise Welsh? And I said, what does? And the other women went, oh, come on, dead. Oh, come on.

Starting point is 00:16:23 Like that. Is it Denise Welsh? So I thought, well, okay, you're offering me a test. I might as well have one. But to me, depression had always been my illness. I'd never considered that anything else was there. And I thought, well, if it's just that I interrupt a lot, sometimes girls, that's because you're boring me.

Starting point is 00:16:43 You know, I'm not going to have tablets because I interrupt a lot or maybe I sort of go off on a tangent, thinking that that's maybe what it was. So I did the whole thing. And needless to say, I was diagnosed ADHD. And it's only now on my second attempt at medication, which came after a breakdown last year, first in five years, that I've realized how I had completely underestimated the impact of ADHD on me, running parallel with my depression. And if maybe I had shown signs before I had Matthew, if maybe there was. more money spent on women's health, they would find a huge link between ADHD and postnatal

Starting point is 00:17:37 depression, severe postnatal depression. So I can't be resentful about it thinking, oh my God, do you think there is medication that I could have had? But all I know now is that, and again, I keep jumping the gun because it all sort of merges into one life. But my cocaine dependency was not till my late 30s. Now, I always think if I was going to be a person that was into dabbling in drugs, I would have done it in my 20s when everybody else was doing it.

Starting point is 00:18:10 I was vehemently against it. I had no desire to have anything more than have a drink on a Friday, Saturday night with my friends. That was me. But my desperation to lift this immovable depression led me to what will do it. That will?

Starting point is 00:18:27 Right. When I've been depressed subsequently in the last four years and I have taken my ADHD tablet, it has the same effect. But not the I'm going to drink and smoke effect. I so appreciate the way in which you speak about this with such honesty and openness and generosity because people listening to this will feel so seen and held in your words. It is incredibly powerful. And I don't for one minute underestimate how much that takes. And so I just want to thank you for that. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:19:01 I can't really honestly talk about my history of depression and trying to get well without mentioning that that was a part of, well, it was a part of me thinking it was going to help my recovery and then took me on a dark road. October really brings it all, doesn't it? Halloween parties, game day tailgates, those perfect crisp fall nights, and total wine and more is here for every single one. Whether you're inviting friends over for a spooky movie, marathon or just savoring the cool fall air on your patio. You'll find exactly what you need. Thousands of wines, spears and beers, all at the lowest prices. Mixing up something spooky? Total Wine and More is your cocktail central for all your Halloween

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Starting point is 00:21:01 because we were both in a very dark place for different reasons and also we were 15 years apart. I'm 15 years older than him, you know. So I was in my late 30s when I was doing Coronation Street and it was an incredible job. You've got to remember there was, the job that everybody wanted. And I was very lucky to be there in the iconic days, you know, when Vera and Jack were still there. I just bumped into Bill Roach the other day and Mike Baldwin

Starting point is 00:21:34 and Barbara Knox and Betty Driver and Phyllis, you know, it was the proper Corey era. But it was incredible, incredibly hard work. And I think coping with an intermittent illness, Coping with a job that you couldn't just ring up and say, I can't come in. I mean, I was used to that in theatre. But in Coronation Street, you're working seven in the morning to seven at night. And bearing in mind, in those days, there was 21 million people watching an episode. You couldn't go anywhere. You were more famous than anybody.

Starting point is 00:22:09 You could put any American movie star in the same supermarket as you, and you'd be the one that was mobbed. That's a third of the country watching you four times a week. And you're making the equivalent of two movies. movies, you know, in a week, because you know how long a movie takes. And it was very hard work. And now, having an actual, what we used to call a nervous breakdown, I would have been kinder to myself, but I didn't. And you think, well, if I'd had a horrendous kidney condition,

Starting point is 00:22:47 if I'd had a horrendous heart condition, I would have been removed and nobody would have died. But because then, and I hope that I've played a role in changing the landscape of how we talk about it, I was one of the few people talking about it. And remember, we only had four television channels. There was, you know, there was no, I think Sky was just starting. We had no social media in all of this type of way. And I would go on Lorraine.

Starting point is 00:23:15 And I remember doing Lorraine from down the line at Coronation Street on the Cobbles and Talks and talking about the horror of hospitalised postnatal depression. And I remember Lorraine, who I see on a weekly basis now, saying to me, we've never had as much response in any of the get up and give appeals that we've done over the years, which is always about a physical condition, than we have had with you talking about mental illness because it was still a stigma.

Starting point is 00:23:43 In some areas it still is, which is ridiculous. And I remember being sort of berating, because I'd said once, I wish that, well, they'd taken the nub of the quote and not continued it. I said, I wish that everybody in the world could experience clinical depression for 15 seconds. 15 seconds and then it would go and never darken their door again so that nobody would ever say, well, what have you got to be depressed about? You know, the difference between the illness and how we all, it's like we use OCD. Oh, I'm so OCD. No, you're not. People go, I know I had post-natal depression for a week after.

Starting point is 00:24:25 No, you didn't. You had the baby blues, and that's also horrible. I'm not taking that away. But with someone like me, it started after Matty and never, when people say, how long did your post-natal depression last? I say, well, 30, 36 years. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience of postpartum psychosis? I can. It sounds terrifying. I was on the verge of postnatal depression and postpartum psychosis. So I was in and out of lucidity. I had a wonderful pregnancy. I'll try and praise you this. So I had an incredible pregnancy. Those ones where people say, the blooming woman in pregnancy, my skin was fabulous, my hair was great. I loved being pregnant. I loved every day of being pregnant. I had a husband. We had some money in the bank. We had, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we.

Starting point is 00:25:18 worrying about the financial aspect of having a kid. My husband was a successful actor. I knew I was in a position that if I wanted to continue work as an actress I could, we were having a much wanted child. And skip-a-do. And even when I was overdue, I still was thinking, oh, I love being pregnant, love being pregnant. So I was, the little anybody ever mentioned about postnatal depression, didn't cross my mind. So I had my baby privately. Tim was a bit of a, I say this with love, a champagne socialist, so he was a bit begrudging, but the hospital I was allocated, National Health was just, it was a disaster. And I had him in what I didn't know at the time was a natural childbirth hospital. I'd just gone because someone said, it's a great private

Starting point is 00:26:08 hospital, so I went there. And in one of the classes, they were talking about this natural childbirth. And I remember saying, yeah, obviously, if it's agony, you will give us some pain relief, won't you? And they said, oh, Mrs. Healy, as I was then, Mrs. Healy, it's not the Victorian times. Of course we will. Fast forward to hit me over the head with a spiked fucking mallet, no pain relief. So, and Matthew, true to form, was, you know, in there, listening to radio having a fag thinking I'm not hurry and there's no rush on here 42 hours later natural childbirth not gas and air nothing out he came it was wonderful it was just wonderful he was the first boy my dad was so thrown because he thought he'd have a girl I'd have a girl and it was all

Starting point is 00:27:04 fantastic and they said I was the most unanxious mom in the hospital there's only probably about six other mum's in there. I didn't pull the anxiety cord, nothing. Feeding him, wanted to try breastfeeding, wasn't fixated on it. My mum was, my mum had been amazing. If it doesn't work, love, don't let them pressure you. You know, bottle fed babies, they'll be fine. So she was fantastic. And got him home. And this was on the Wednesday. So I had him on the Saturday, got him home on the Wednesdays day. And I opened all the cards that had arrived. And I dissolved into this emotional state of hormonal chaos. And I was aware that I had the baby blues. So it didn't frighten me. It was just I couldn't open a card without crying and looking at this child and feeling

Starting point is 00:27:55 this wave of huge responsibility. But I was all right. Two days later, my mom and dad arrived from the northeast and it was a moment that I had dreamt of for years I can remember feeling devoid of feeling something I'd never felt before not depression just a very void feeling that when my mom was saying oh my god you know I knew I'd love my grandchild but I was unprepared for this overwhelming love I feel for him I couldn't cry I couldn't feel anything and I went to bed that night and I had the first panic attack that I'd ever had. I wasn't thinking panic. I wasn't anxious. I just woke with the only thing I can the sort of analogy is that you're driving along in your car and a lorry cuts you up and you think

Starting point is 00:28:54 you're going to die and you pull over to the lay by and you stop and your heart is racing like it's going to come out your chest. But the danger passes and eventually you calm down. It was like that, but never the danger passing. And I'd gone to bed with huge breastfeeding bazookers. And after the panic attack, so I'm talking just hours, I had no milk. And I had Spaniel's ears, boobs to put no finer point on it. I'd lost all the milk. And this community midwife came around who I'd never had before and she was bloody awful Elizabeth if I'm honest with you and I'm a huge respect of the NHS and wonderful people in that organisation and I said and she went oh that is not normal she said that really I've only ever seen that happen if a spouse dies

Starting point is 00:29:53 or a parent dies or indeed if the child dies um you're going to have to go out and get some bottles that's really not. Now, now, the flag that would be waving in front of them would be hormonal. This is a hormonal disaster. Something has gone seriously wrong in this woman's hormones. Obviously, there is a chemical chaos, you know, when your hormones are writing themselves. But nobody knew anything. Tim went out and they got the bottles and they brought them back and there was the Milton with the bottles in at the top and we had this long kitchen. And to this day, if I saw, smell the perfume that my mom wore because she came down for three days and had to take leave of work as a psychiatric nurse. She had to take leave of work to look after me. And if I smell

Starting point is 00:30:40 the perfume that she was wearing, which was Ivo de Beaumont, it will, or if I smell Milton in someone's house. So that was maybe the Thursday, Friday. On the Saturday, Mom said, let's take him out for a walk. And I was, I wasn't depressed. I just was odd. And we went for a walk in Crouchend in London and I'd lived there for 10 years. So it was somewhere I knew very, very well. And on the way back from this coffee, we went into a corner shop to get some milk. And on the radio, it was announcing the horrible Hillsbury disaster, April of 15, 1989. And I came out the shop and I remember saying to mum, there's been this awful disaster, 96 people have been crushed and died. It's terrible. And we got half a mile home and mum asked me a question about it. And I remember

Starting point is 00:31:35 saying, that was a dream. And she said, no, no, sweetheart, you just told. And I said, oh my God, why are you trying to make me go mad? That was a dream. I dreamt it. And my mum thought, oh, okay, this is not good. We got in the house. And my mum said that she walked out of the bedroom. and I was on the window sill trying to open the window. Now the press picked that up as if I was trying to take my own life. I wasn't. I didn't know where I was or what I was doing. So there was no conscious decision to do that.

Starting point is 00:32:06 And I then just spent three months pretty much in the corner of a sofa wanting someone to give me an injection. And my mum was so brilliant. and she knew that keeping the contact with my child was really important. So every four hours, she would make me walk to the bottles, make the bottle, which was like she'd said, go and climb Everest. And I would make the bottle, and I would feed him. And I had no bad feelings towards this child.

Starting point is 00:32:39 I just had, why have I got this child? And then the blackness started. And it was like it started from my feet and rolled up like a blanket. And it meant that the depression was so thick. It was so thick that I couldn't move my hands on my mouth. And so when you then have an illness where people say, you've got to snap out of it, you know, you've got a beautiful baby who's healthy, you've got an amazing family. People have got no idea, you know, so all I've tried to do in my kind of. mental health advocacy role

Starting point is 00:33:22 unelected but you know that's what I felt I should do is just try and explain to people that this is an illness which is as serious as any other illness you just can't you just can't see it and there's not enough there's not enough help for women

Starting point is 00:33:41 who are going through that because not everybody is lucky enough to have the family that I had so when I read a headline about someone who has recently had children and they've taken their own life. I completely understand it. And these headlines are, how selfish, how utterly selfish. No, it's not fucking selfish.

Starting point is 00:34:00 It's desperate because you think that you are just a drain on everybody else's life, is how you feel. And that, of course, led to the rocky road of self-medication, which when you are so desperate, you would do anything. If someone said to me, and again, you'll get the flat going, that's so disrespectful to people who've had to have that done. If someone said to me, you need to lose a limb. And if you do, you will never have depression again. I would have offered both arms like that.

Starting point is 00:34:32 And to be honest, I still would. You would never say to a person. So say, for example, when my mum had cancer, she lived so brilliantly and courageously with cancer for 20 years. And most of that time, she didn't look poorly. You wouldn't say to my mum, Annie, we know you've got cancer, but you've been in bed for what, a month now? Get up, get some trainers on, show everybody that you've got a bit more about you and get on with, you wouldn't say that to somebody. But I would have that said to me every single week of life, you know. But I will add that living with a mental illness, the times in between and how I've managed it with help.

Starting point is 00:35:17 I still consider that I've had a wonderful life and I still do have huge lengths of time of great joy. Great joy for me is feeling normal. It's not being frightened of the mornings because with a depressive, you are frightened of the mornings a lot of the time because you have no idea what the morning is going to bring. So when I wake up and it's about 11 o'clock before I think, oh, I'm all right. that's a that's a really good day i'm so moved by how you've expressed all of that and i'm so in awe of your courage oh i really am thank you so much for sharing that and for being here this show to to to to do it i'm deeply honored thank you

Starting point is 00:36:07 tim's new craveable raps are made for the times your boss said the what now or your teacher mentions that thingamabob need to pick me up snack back to reality with tim's new craveable raps available in chipotle or ranch plus tax at participating restaurants in canada for a limited time i wonder if i could ask you about one of my favorite songs from the 1975 yeah called she lays down yes which matty wrote about this period of your life yeah and there are some lyrics in that song that take your breath away every time you hear them but i wonder what it's like for you listening to it so lyrics like she'd like to love her child lyrics like she's appalled by not loving me at all she wears a frown and dressing gown when she lays down and in the end she chose cocaine but

Starting point is 00:37:00 it couldn't fix her brain how does that feel listening to that song i he didn't tell me that he was writing it and because he probably knows that I would have said what you're going to say what you're going to say why did you say that you know because when you've got a child who's a musician as well I would be like this outside his door when he was playing guitar in his teens thinking oh my god is he going to sing about his scard childhood let me have and listen and it wasn't until it came out and in fact the first time I heard it I saw I rely on social media to know sometimes where my children are, you know, like where is he now when he's on tour or he's in Denver? And I remember my Twitter feed going wild at some point.

Starting point is 00:37:51 It said that Mattie had burst into tears on stage and found it hard to continue. So, of course, my heart goes like that. And he'd sang She Lays Down about my depression. So the She Lays Down is because when he was old enough, obviously when they were children, when he was a child, Mummy would just be in bed not well and daddy would protect them from that. They didn't need to, didn't want to understand mental illness as much as they did when they were older. But when both of them subsequently were at an age when they could understand, I would explain to Matthew that I would lie down next to him and pray to be able to love my child with the love that I had felt when I had him. because it wasn't that I wished any harm on him

Starting point is 00:38:34 or had any negative feelings towards him like some poor women do. I just couldn't feel anything and I think the thing with depression is that people don't understand it's always described so wrongly in everything I read about it as extreme sadness. It couldn't be further from the truth, Elizabeth.

Starting point is 00:38:54 Extreme sadness is what I felt when my mum and dad died. It's what you feel when something makes you extremely sad. Depression is the inability to feel extreme sadness. You can't feel happiness, sadness, nothing. It depresses everything about your life. So if someone knocked at the door and said, you've won 18 million on the lottery or whatever, or your whole family have been wiped out in an aircraft disaster,

Starting point is 00:39:21 nothing. And that's when you read the tragic headlines. And so I said, I used to lie down. And he said, and I told him, again, years later when he was a grown-up, when he was a tot like one year to 18 months his dad was doing a series in Australia called Boys from the Bush and I felt so awful so I flew to Australia and surprised Tim and I got so poorly the night before I went

Starting point is 00:39:48 and I remember thinking on the plane I just wish it would go down when these quotes are taken out of context you can see how I've been plagued with you know press that have taken stuff out of context it's because you will do anything to stop the pain and you think if it's taken out of my hands

Starting point is 00:40:09 because I won't be able to be you know all of this but you know Matty has had his own I don't really try not to talk too much about my kids because apart from that I love them and I'm so proud of them because it's not fair but I think I can say you know Matthew has had his own dealings

Starting point is 00:40:26 with the with a tendency to the dark side and if you listen to the lyrics of his songs you can you can hear that so that um that is his version of what i told him when he was when he was older i wanted to ask you because we started off talking about i was going to say about the failing to get sober quicker i think my drinking and using not so much with louis because louis was nine when lincoln and i got sober he's never ever seen lincoln have a drink he doesn't remember mum having a drink. And I'd also like to point out to the, to the viewers and listeners that I wasn't the kind of alcoholic that woke up in the morning and pretended to get the

Starting point is 00:41:09 fruit juice out and was doing this with a vodka bottle from under the sofa. If I drank in the morning, that was because I was still drinking from the night before. And I was still holding down a job. I don't believe there is such a thing as a functioning alcoholic because you are physically going to work, but you're functioning on about 10% of your capability. But was I staggering around the West End during the day living on the streets? No, I wasn't. I was also going home and bringing up, you know, two children. But I wish that I could have found the strength to not rely on those things earlier. But I couldn't. And it was like I was living two separate lives.

Starting point is 00:41:58 I was at home in the northeast at this point where the family home was. And then I would be in London. And I'd be away. And obviously I'd always made sure that everything was sorted and looked after. But then many years later, when Matty would tell me something that had impacted him from my drinking days, I would get incredibly defensive and it would be like oh, you know

Starting point is 00:42:34 oh yes, what a terrible childhood oh yes, we just let you all be in the garage we paid for everything we bought you the first van da da da defence because I couldn't bear it and then I had to have a reel in an irreligious come to Jesus talk with myself and to think my behaviours did impact on him

Starting point is 00:42:53 of course they fucking did So grow up and accept that you're not, you know, there's no way ever that either of my children have ever done the old, you know, we're scarred because of you or whatever. But obviously, if your mum is, and the household was crazy, what Matthews also said before is, but if you hadn't been a bit rock and roll, I wouldn't be the person that I was. So there is balance to that, to the, you know, what Louis might say considerably boring household, you know, with the most exciting thing was having, you know, two crumpets as opposed to one, which is how my night times are now. That is pretty exciting, yeah, especially with loads of butter. Oh, delicious, and thick slice of chender. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whenever I have shame, shame and guilt are very different.

Starting point is 00:43:44 I think guilt is something that we nearly all suffer. And as a mum, mum, guilt comes with the package. Shame is something that you really, really, that I really struggle with. I will get a wave of something, a memory of something, because it's like I don't know the person that I was now that I'm 13 years sober. The things that I would have done differently, the decisions I've made, but what people say and what my kids say is, but mum, you have given us the ability to fly because you are sober now

Starting point is 00:44:14 and we know that you are safe and we know that you and Lincoln are safe together. so I do have to stop beating myself up about it but I can't help but say I still wish that that I had but then again if I had it wouldn't have been because of Lincoln and I wouldn't have met the person that is

Starting point is 00:44:35 maybe the happiest I've ever been let's talk about Lincoln because it is extraordinary how the two of you met at a certain point in each other's lives and got sober for each other Yeah. What was the moment where you thought, oh, I have to do this now? Well, him first. I gave him an ultimatum first, so we got together at a nightclub.

Starting point is 00:44:58 We were both, we didn't go, hi, I'm Denise, I'm an alcoholic, didn't start like that. I was a party animal. He was a party animal. Lincoln is now an internationally successful contemporary artist, as you kindly said in the introduction. But when I met him, he was the PR marketing manager of Stringfellows. So he was living an incredible nocturnal life. And so my marriage was over. Tim and I had both decided that it was mutually, but the press didn't know that it was.

Starting point is 00:45:31 I was hacked for many, many, many years in quite a well-known hacking case where they put bugs in my hotel room as well as just hacking my phone. I was really, really targeted. And at the time when you don't know, you don't trust anybody because you had no idea that you were.

Starting point is 00:45:46 being hacked. And so it was a very, very hard time for me that every single thing I did was out there in the papers. So when the press discovered we'd broken up, I was kind of forced, not by loose women, but my hand was forced to announce publicly that we'd broken up when I wasn't ready to really. And of course, I was the flippity gibbet and I was the one having the affair and everything, because that's the narrative they wanted. And I just had to suck it up, I suppose. And then we realized that we were getting very, very fond of each other. And the one time that we argued that was ruining everything was when we drank. And I saw a side of him one night that I didn't like, not a physical side or anything, but a side that I didn't like. And I gave him an ultimatum.

Starting point is 00:46:35 And he gave up drinking the next day. He was so frightened of losing me. And I was doing a tour of Steele Magnolia's The Wonderful Play with Sherry Lungie and Ila Blair. And I didn't think, therefore, that I had as much of a problem because I could only have a couple of beers after the show and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, fast forward to this one night. And I woke up the next morning and I had no recollection of the night before. I was on the front of the evening standard, screaming and shouting in the street. And Lincoln said,

Starting point is 00:47:13 I'm going to come and pick you up from work tonight. And I don't want you to say anything. I just want to talk. I let me do the talking. And he picked me up at Richmond Theatre, drove me all the way back to his little, did he flat in Kensington he had at the time? And basically he said,

Starting point is 00:47:30 it's going to be so hard for me because I don't know who you're going to be when you walk in the door. And I just thought, I can't do that to him. I'm going to lose him. and that was April the 18th, 13 years ago. Not very good at maths. And I've never had a drink since.

Starting point is 00:47:53 Not a sherry trifle. You know, I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. Thank you. One of the extra failures you gave me was a failure to have any spirituality or belief in higher power. And my understanding of the AA 12-step programme is absolutely that you have to have that belief. That's why it wasn't for me, but it is for lots of people. And that's what's so interesting to me.

Starting point is 00:48:14 So you didn't, you just got yourselves through it. Yeah. And apparently, according to a therapist, and I've been in and out of therapy, it's not a great staple of mine. I'll pick it up when I need it. But if I've got my meds right, I'm okay. But apparently we are in about 3% of the world that as a couple have managed to do what we did.

Starting point is 00:48:37 because what you need is to maintain sobriety is an anchor and to a lot of people, AA is a wonderful, necessary, important anchor to us, each other is our anchor. And also, a higher power is very important to a lot of people and I'm very respectful of that. To me, no higher power stop me drinking, will power stop me drinking. Is there anything that you miss about it? About drinking, not one thing.

Starting point is 00:49:05 because I know where it takes me. Do I wish that I was the kind of person that could have two or three glasses of champagne and get a bit giddy with my girlfriends on a Friday night? Yes, but I couldn't. Not in a million years could I do that? And to be honest, there's a few people who say to me I've stepped off the wagon

Starting point is 00:49:25 and I can have, doesn't usually last very long. And that's not saying that some people can't. But to me, nothing is worth it. Nothing is worth it because what we have in our marriage is so incredible. My marriage is the bedrock of my life. If my marriage is good, everything else works for me. Giving up alcohol didn't cure my depression, but it stopped compounding it. So that's what I would do.

Starting point is 00:49:59 I would drink and use to momentarily for a few hours. was take the pain away, block out, behave immorally. You know, cocaine is the worst drug you can take. It lies to you. It's the most vile, disgusting thing that you can ever do. But it used to lift me out of a depression temporarily, you know, crazy. I would not be having what I like to call. I'm pinching what Pamela Anderson said on here

Starting point is 00:50:29 or what you said about her second act as an actress now. I'm having, I'm creating a second act for myself, and none of that would have happened, were it not for my sobriety. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Presale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply.

Starting point is 00:51:00 Learn more at amex.ca. this episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus powered by Peloton IQ built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move. Lift with confidence while Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-draining tread plus at one peloton.ca. I'm so glad that you found each other and that you found each other's sobriety. Yeah. And I'm so thrilled about your second act as an actor, which brings us on to your final failure, because you said to me that you failed to play a lead role in a bonnet drama.

Starting point is 00:51:49 But I want to get back to that, but we've just heard that you are returning to Waterloo Road, which is very exciting. Well, it's 15 years ago since I did Waterloo Road And create it, yes It's going to be the first time that you're doing it so Yes, that's amazing Yes, I mean, God, I have to say, you know, the young kids in it now Because Jason Merrill's is back as well

Starting point is 00:52:11 And the young kids in it now go, Tell us what it was like when you were in it And we say no, it was just very different It was very, very different, you know Even those who didn't have an alcohol problem We were a party crowd. Things have changed in this world, haven't they? We were a party crowd.

Starting point is 00:52:26 But I loved the character of Steph and I helped create her because I was there, you know, from the very beginning. And so when they did ask me to go back, and this was just last year, they asked me to go back initially to do one. And I will say to Cameron, the wonderful exec producer who's had, you know, brought the show back and it's amazing. Only if Steph can maintain the DNA of Steph because we now live in a world where Steph could not get away. on the BBC with doing some of the things she did 15 years ago but at the same time

Starting point is 00:53:02 I don't want to dilute her down and then people lose the memory of the iconic character that she was they pushed the boundaries a little bit because I wanted her to be a sexually active woman in her 60s not that you have to see that but I wanted it registered

Starting point is 00:53:19 that because she wasn't still married that don't worry about Steph everybody She might be in her mid-60s, but she's still cracking on and having a good time. And I've just done a fabulous episode of Russell T. Davis's new series, Tiptoe, with Alan Cumming and David Morrissey. I'm doing an episode of Death in Benadourne, this new sort of crime drama out in Benadourm. And I'm just loving a return to my acting world and what I do best. I love loose women. There will always be a place for me there. But I just now want to remind people that I'm a bloody good actress, Elizabeth. You are Denise.

Starting point is 00:54:04 It's the one thing I say that I'm good at. Yeah, and actually the bonnet drama of it all, do you think that you have been historically underestimated for various reasons? I think I do, and I think that I didn't help derailing in derailing it, but I had a very unfair disadvantage of the way that I was targeted, so it derailed my reputation in the public, I think, as well. I also had people who were meant to be looking after my career who were actually derailing it themselves

Starting point is 00:54:38 I thought that they were spotting the metaphorical car crash rescuing me from it in a crisis management way and making money from it only many years later did I discover that the people had been creating the car crash in a horrible management situation selling stories on it That's so awful how do you trust anyone Well that was a very difficult time

Starting point is 00:55:00 But this is why now I think, okay, I'm just going to, it's not like the script bus comes along and chucks the scripts under my door. You know, I'm going to decide that I'm doing this. But my agent and I worked on a strategy and it's proving, you know, that there are still people that want me to work as an actress. I'm glad that I'm having my turn again. We are too. You belong there. Thank you. question. It's a very, very, very serious one. We started off talking about the sweet factory. Yes, Welsh's toffies. Welsh's toffee. Okay. If you were a sweet, it can be any sweet in the world.

Starting point is 00:55:41 It doesn't have to be one made by Welshers. What sweet do you think you would be? Oh my God. So tough. Sorry. I think I would be an opal fruit, which is now to the young people called a starburst. because the old thing used to be made to make your mouth water and I think I can still make some mouth water even in my old dotage. Denise! What a fabulous note to end on. You make my mouth water.

Starting point is 00:56:11 I love that we get a shout at as opal fruits because I also think they tasted better. Why did they change? Made to make your mouth water. I so remember that. Fresh with the tang of citrus for refreshing fruit flavors. Do you remember?

Starting point is 00:56:25 Marathon before it became Snickers. Snickers, why? Why would you change it? You know, my dad, the Toffee manufacturer, of course, was also a drag act, was also Raquel. So, I mean, how that plays into your life as well. Your dad was a drag act. And because our surname is Welsh, my dad went out as Raquel. Again, I say that to young people now and they go, who?

Starting point is 00:56:45 And I go, Raquel Welsh, no idea, no conception, but obviously back in the day. So he was, so when I was at drama school in the late 70s and, um, you. The other kids were being taken to McDonald's, their parents would come down. We were all 18. Their parents would come down and take them to McDonald's, which had just come over from the States. I was taken to the black cap at Campton Town to watch the drag reviews.

Starting point is 00:57:07 He was a heterosexual drag artist. And he took Jane McDonald and I to a place in Phil Beach Gardens, and dad was wearing, because he'd been on loose women, a short, lycra green miniskirt and an off-the-shoulder blouse. And we walked in, and I swear, and you asked Jane, We walked in and we heard, look at those two who've come as Denise Welsh and Jane McDonnell, McDonald, they're shit. Oh my gosh, I don't want this conversation to end. Well, I'll have to come back.

Starting point is 00:57:39 How is that just like a tiny little anecdote that you slipped in the end there? That could be a whole episode in an honour of itself. There you go. Please come back, Denise. I will, absolutely. I'm obsessed with you. My obsession has reached ever newer heights during the course of this hour. Oh, my God, thank you.

Starting point is 00:57:52 I've loved it. I honestly feel like I've been in therapy. Thank you. It's a huge compliment. Thank you. I'm so grateful you came on How to Fail. Thank you. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends.

Starting point is 00:58:11 This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Denise Welch - I Got Sober For Love

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