How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Ella Purnell - ‘Therapy changed my life’

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

TW: self-harm You might know Ella from her leading roles in the hit TV show ‘Yellowjackets’ or Amazon Prime’s ‘Fallout’. She’s been acting since she was a child (and is still absurdly young tbf) and bears the notable distinction of having played the younger versions of Keira Knightly, Margot Robbie and Angeline Jolie on-screen. What a thruple! At 28, she is wise beyond her years and on her way to stellar success. We talk about being realistic about perfectionism, how to stop caring about negative voices and how she overcame her own mental health struggles. ‘Sweatpea’ is out now on Sky Atlantic and Now TV. If you’ve been affected by any of the issues raised by our discussion on Trichotillomania (hair pulling disorder) or self-harm, you can find more resources here. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com NEW HOW TO FAIL WITH ELIZABETH DAY PRESENTED BY HAYU LIVE TOUR DATE Friday 28th March 2025 – The London Barbican Pre-sale: Thursday 14 November   On Sale: Friday 15 November Go to: www.fane.co.uk/how-to-fail Production & Post Production Manager: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt

totally supported as an entrepreneur, and it made it even easier for me to help nurture my community too. Other amazing features include SEO tools so your site can be found easily, help with payments, and an AI-enhanced website builder. It helps you do you without any hassle. Head to squarespace.com forward slash fail10 for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website and domain. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the

condiment that gives success its flavour. Before we get to our guest today, I wanted to mention our subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's a bit of Ella Purnell. I think that it's painful when you see a friendship end. And if there's any way you can hold on bit of Ella Purnell. those things. Instead of focusing on the end, that would be helpful and also give it time. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look out for my call-outs once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions. And I've got some very, very exciting news because my How to Fail Tour in spring next year has added a

whole new London date on March the 28th 2025, in London's Barbican Centre. Pre-sale for Friends of Fane starts this Thursday, November 14, and the tickets go on general sale on Friday, November 15. If you want to book, head to www.fane.co.uk. I hope to see you there. And now, here's Ella. At 28, the actor Ella Parnell has already amassed a CV that would look impressive belonging to a person double her age. Her TV roles include the ill-fated Jackie in Yellow Jackets, and the plucky but naive Lucy McLean in Fallout, Amazon Prime's second most watched series of all time. On the big screen, she's worked with director Tim Burton in Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children and played the younger Keira Knightley

in Never Let Me Go. Her American accent is so convincing that you might not know she was born and raised in East London, the daughter of a yoga teacher mother and a businessman father. She started modelling at two, booked her first commercial at eight, and took weekly acting classes at the Sylvia Young Theatre School. At twelve, she spent a year in the cast of Oliver in the West End. Her latest project, which Purnell also executive produced, sees her starring in Sky Atlantic's Sweet Pea, a dark comedy drama which tells the story of Rhiannon, a receptionist who, fed up of being ignored, bullied and underestimated, finally snaps. The loss of control leads to Rhiannon discovering

her own sense of self, but not before she's killed someone. It's a fascinating role, and one which demonstrates Purnell's conscious choice to take on parts which surprise and challenge. This refusal to be typecast has won her much acclaim. She was recently given the Madame Figaro Rising Star Award at the 2024 Cannes Series Festival. I really have worked very hard in the last 10 years to create the life that I want rather than living the life that was set out for me, Purnell says. And they're two very different things. Ella Purnell, welcome to How to Fail. Hi, thanks for having me.

Thank you for being here. That was such a lovely little intro. Thank you. Well, I didn't have enough time to put in all of your numerous credits. You have been working so hard, all of your life, really. Oh, yeah. Well, thanks. Not hard work if you're having fun. True, true. That's what we all have to say. That's what we all have to say sometimes at five in the morning on a rainy Tuesday, don't we?

What was the life that you think was set out for you rather than the life that you worked on to live? You know, I don't know how different they would have looked, aside from the fact that I just didn't, I wouldn't have had any autonomy. I think that it's very difficult to be happy when you're passive in your own life. I think happiness comes from being empowered and emboldened to make your own choices. It comes from making mistakes and learning from those mistakes, even though those mistakes might not make you happy in the moment. Looking back, they made you happy because it shows

freedom and choice, which is so important for the human experience, I think. I don't want to embarrass you by stating boldly that you're phenomenally beautiful, but I am going to do that. You're very sweet. Back at you. Thank you. Stop. Thanks. But you are. And I wonder how difficult it was for you to stop being typecast. Were you constantly being given roles as like the hot girlfriend? There was a lot of the hot girlfriend, a lot of the sort of like damsel in distress type thing, you know.

I mean, but I do think that's just like all young women go through a phase where that is sort of the only part that's available to you. And it was always just more interesting to me to be like the funny one or the kind of gross one or to put on like a bad wig and, you know, just do something different and interesting. And I think that's kind of how I am in my real life is like really quite silly. Let's talk about Sweet Pea, which I was riveted by. I don't know if you ever watched a movie called Falling Down, which was Michael Douglas in the main part, and it's about a man who snaps and gives into his rage, but it's an examination of specific

male rage, I would say. And for me, I thought Sweet Pea was so interesting because it was about female rage that is often masked by sadness. Can you tell us what drew you to that theme? It's an almost all-female creative team behind it. It's not something that we ever really talked about or considered because it seems so universally understood behind the scenes. We all obviously knew what it was. We didn't really need to do it, it seemed so obvious. And it's funny because we just called it rage, because we're all women and we didn't feel the need to specify the difference between our rage and regular male rage. But there is obviously inherently huge differences. Something I really related to Rhiannon about is the fact that

as women we have to be so careful about how we express our anger so as not to appear hysterical or emotional. We have to be so careful about the way that we ask for what we want and what we need so that we're not shrill or demanding or bossy. All of these gender specific ones that we don't use for men obviously. And with Rihanna and it manifests in this sort of simmering rage that is under the surface and the whole way through the first episode of the show, it should feel like this pressure is building. It's a tight wire that it's just going to snap at any given moment. And she can't stand up for herself. She doesn't have the confidence, you know, really the self-esteem to say what she wants

and how she feels and to say, excuse me, man's bread on the bus, would you please close your legs? Anything like that. She can't say, she just smiles through it. And that smiling through the pain is I think such a relatable thing for, I mean, a lot of people, especially women. Definitely. And I think you do a great job of telling that story so that by the time she stabs a man, I'm like, I'm totally with her. That makes complete logical sense to me. I know. It's so funny. Some of the comments have been like, I support women's wrongs as well as women's rights.

And that is good. That's kind of what we wanted to do is another thing I was excited about was the challenge of doing female Dexter feel empathy for her, relate to her emotions and her experiences without obviously relating to her actions and what she does. That's just harder with a woman than it is a man. It is because we all subconsciously judge women more harshly than we do men. Even the women, even the allies, even the feminists,

it's put into us by society from birth. It's what we're all trained in addition to do subconsciously. So it was important to us to have that first episode where you see her really, really going through it. You see how invisible she is. People don't notice her, they don't see her. So that when we get to that snap moment at the end, her first kill, we almost are kind of, you know, yes, we don't support murder. However, there is a part of us really is glad she's at

least doing something. She's taking agency in her life for better or for worse, obviously for worse. When do you think you have felt underestimated? What experiences did you draw from as the actress? I think they just happened to women all the time. It's as simple as like, I've been working down at my house at the moment and my male friend was over at the house hanging out. And the electrician came in and just spoke to him the whole time about the work.

I'm the one that paid for it, I'm the one that made the calls, sent the emails. This guy doesn't know anything about the house, it's not his house. It's just tiny things like that when you just get so frustrated. And of course I can't go, hello, talk to me, because that would be rude. And I would probably get labeled something that if it was a guy who said that it'd probably be a funny joke. So you have to very politely just kind of smile. And there's no, you know, we're not given the tools and the vocabulary to say, hi, it's my house actually. He doesn't live here. It happens so frequently that you just get, you just smile through

it and it's sort of just, you don't even think about it. It's just become normalized that that is just something that's going to happen because you're a woman. Well, talking of women, you bear the notable distinction of having played younger versions on screen of Keira Knightley, Margot Robbie and Angelina Jolie. I know, I don't know how that's happened. Which is amazing because they look very different and yet when I look at your face I can totally see elements of all of them. And I know that Keira Knightley is still something of a mentor to you, isn't she?

Keira and I worked together very closely and that was my first film I did, Never Let Me Go and I was 12 maybe, 12 years old. And she's just the most gracious, kind, sweet, considerate human. She started acting very young, really looked out for us. And we worked together quite closely. It was really interesting. So it was three youngers and it was Keira Knightley, Kerry Mulligan, Andrew Garfield. It was an amazing cast.

Come on, crazy. And we worked together a lot to try to be the same character, be the same person, you know, talking about little mannerisms we would have in common. We read each other's scenes sometimes, mix and match the cast. So getting to watch her and learn from her up close as an actor as well as like a young person just really who loved parts of the Caribbean. It was incredible and she always gave me the time of day. Really, really nice person. So nice. I interviewed her once in my previous incarnation as a print journalist and she

was so great, exactly as you described, turned up on her own, wolfed down a croissant, wore an amazing denim jumpsuit. Final question before we get onto your failures is about exec producing, which you did on Sweet Pea. Given what we've just discussed about the electrician ignoring you in your own house, how empowering was that role? I wouldn't have done it unless it felt really right. I wanted to be on the other side of camera for ages. I directed a couple, or I directed a short, produced a couple of shorts and wanted to do it in a way that I felt that I could contribute fully either with a project I care deeply, deeply about or a character I really understood.

And it just felt like one of those wonderful kismet things. And they completely, I didn't want like a vanity credit. I didn't want to be like an actor producer who doesn't really do it. I really wanted to get stuck in. I wanted to be in the writers room. I wanted to be on the recce's. I wanted to get involved. Not all of us are always the best behaved, so I do get it, but we get treated like children a lot of the time. People kind of coddle us and calm us down and say what they think we want to hear and I hate that. It really bothers me. I get it. There's this insane hierarchy on set where we're treated ridiculously well for absolutely no reason at all when the crew are the ones who are

working a million hours and they're underpaid. Nobody's stupid. I think it's so stupid. But they always, always just treated me like a creative, collaborative person. And they didn't sort of, I don't know, condescend me in any way or make me feel like I didn't earn my place in that room. It's a slightly, it's dying out now, it's slightly older, but there is a little bit of a connotation

that actors are stupid. Sometimes we get treated like we're stupid, and we're really not. And they never made me feel like that. They always embraced me and included me. You know, we all just want what's best for the character. We all want what's best for the show and for the story. And Rhiannon was always our North Star,

making this character as authentically truthful as possible. And I think that's what kind of encouraged me and gave me the tools and the vocabulary to actually stand up for myself when I felt like I needed to and advocate for the character, advocate for myself and pitch my own ideas in an environment that otherwise could be quite scary. Yeah. Do you think you learnt that you loved working in teams or you learnt how to stand up for yourself in a kind of collaborative group effort from Yellow Jackets? Because I know that that was a very special experience in terms of the friendships you formed.

Definitely. I mean, I think it's a little bit on every job actually. It's like kind of 10%. You grow like 10% as a person on every experience. I remember Sweet Bitter was a really formative one for me because I was 20, moved to New York on my own and didn't know anyone and it was my first time doing TV, it was my first time working in the States. It was my first time doing a lot of things. It was my first time doing any sex scenes or really any grown-up role and not just playing a teenager or a child. I was terrified. It was also my first time being the lead in a show, being number one on the call sheet,

which is a massive responsibility. I'd obviously been lucky enough to learn from so many people. I really wanted to be a good leader who advocated for others. That was something that was really ingrained in me. So that was a time that I really learned how to say, no, guys, we can't break the turnaround. The crew have worked insanely long. They've been up since four in the morning. I've got to protect this crew, my friends, my family.

It's hard. It's really hard and you're scared. There's also this thing that child actors are taught is like, you'll do anything it takes to be employed. Jeanette McCurdy wrote this incredible book I'm obsessed with. Loved it. I'm glad my mum died. Incredible. Oh my God. I love that book. And there's so much stuff she said about being a child actor that even me on a much, much smaller scale, obviously I did not have nowhere near the experiences she had, but I could still relate to a lot of the things she said. And she said something about being a child actor and just molding yourself any which way to be the most employable version of yourself and not be difficult.

Being a young girl who is a child actor, not being difficult is the biggest thing. You have to unlearn that, that people-pleasing aspect of the industry and be like, actually, I'm really sorry, I know you guys need the shot, but nothing is more important than everyone hears health and safety. And sometimes it's easier to stand up for other people than yourself. So that was definitely the first building block for me saying. Wow, that's so interesting. And actually, it leads us onto one of your failures. So I'm going to reverse the order slightly because when you wrote it to me, it was number two. But it is that you failed yourself for a number of

years by consistently prioritizing other people's needs and happiness above your own. So clearly that relates to being a child actor and wanting to please. Did it relate to other areas of your life, personally speaking? Yeah, it stayed with me a really long time. It's something I'm still unlearning. It's an interesting relationship I have with my work where, obviously, I started writing when I was eight and going into auditions, it's so competitive. It's such an unusual, uncomfortable, unhealthy environment, auditioning as a child. I mean, God, we need to help these kids. Like it's awful. They get all of these young teenage girls in a

room. Everyone's competitive. The mums are all competitive. Everyone's nervous. We're all eyeing each other up. And by the way, it's like that scene out of La La Land where everyone looks exactly the same. You know, when Emma, Emma Stone comes out of the room and all the girls look like her. And there's this, this thing of like, God, no wonder women are just constantly pitted against each other. It's ingrained in us from being really young in our industry. And, and then when you get employed, you know, you'd never say, actually, I don't want to do that. Cause then you're labeled, it's difficult to work with, you will never be employed. And you hear these stories, I'm sure not true, but it's just told to you as myths,

the deep lore about young actresses that said they weren't going to eat that, weren't going to do that, and they never worked again. You're terrified you're going to be that person. So you just do whatever, you say yes all the time. You get to 18, 19, 20, and the stakes are different. Suddenly, you're getting offered nudity scenes or raunchy scenes or scenes where you have to kiss someone or act out a violent scene or maybe use language that you're not comfortable with, wear something that you're not comfortable with.

I went to photo shoots at 15, 16 and they'd pull out a bra and knickers. I cannot say no and thank God I have an incredible team around me and an amazing mum who are there to advocate for me. But not everyone has that. Not everyone has good people on their side. And it really makes my heart hurt for all the people that don't feel like they can say no. It's a scary thing the first time you say no to something that makes you uncomfortable. And I really did genuinely think I'm never going to work again. Do you remember when that was the first time you said that no? It was a bit of nudity in the script and it was my first time ever being asked. And I

was just so young and I just didn't want to do it. And I was not comfortable with my body and I was not comfortable with, you know, that I would have been acting the scene with multiple people, by the way, not just one person. Luckily, my fear in that moment and my insecurity outweighed my need to ever work again. I genuinely was like, all right, this is it, my career is over, but I just can't be naked on screen. I just can't, I will die of embarrassment. I've done nudity since then and it was empowering,

and it was amazing, and I I felt confident and I'm proud of myself for doing what I did. And I don't know if I would have had a good relationship with my body today if I had done it then. I would have just been too insecure. I'm really glad that I said no, I'm really glad that my fear won that time. Yeah, that's so powerful. Sometimes fear and anger, they're your internal protection mechanisms. Well done for saying that. I'm proud of you, Ella. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. We're at a time where B2B selling, that's businesses

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to keep Congo free of communists. Follow the spy who now wherever you listen to podcasts. You say that you're still a work in progress. You're still unlearning this people pleasing tick, by the way, so am I. I don't know if it ever does it ever go away. I think potentially when you're in your 80s, if you're lucky enough to get that, maybe then. I can't wait. It definitely gets better. Definitely. Because well, my experience is that I know myself

better. And you've taken more risks and you've said more no's and you've survived them. And actually you realize that they're really empowering. And so all of that is like learned experience that you can put in the bank. But I wonder how difficult it is when you are as recognized as you are, when you do have this massive Instagram following, when you are on this hugely popular series on Amazon, is it difficult to separate that from your need to be liked? Because trying to be liked by all that many, those many millions must be impossible.

I talk about it all the time, I think about it all the time. It's something I've had to reckon with a lot. And number one, there is this need that still exists in me all the time to justify myself. When you say no to something or you get misunderstood or rumors circulate, I still want to go on the internet and write actually and I want to defend myself because it's frustrating being misunderstood and more than that, I don't want to be disliked. Nobody wants to be disliked. Nobody wants to be disliked. And anybody who, you know, is in the public eye is going to be disliked. This is my word of the year is surrender.

I can't control anything. You do at a certain point when you're in the public eye become public property. And there is the version of me that exists out there, the version of me that is perceived by other people, that is not the version of me that I am. And nobody knows me except for my friends and my family. And so therefore it can't get to me. It can get to that person, but she doesn't have any feelings because she's not real. It's a figment of everybody's imagination. It's their protected image.

It doesn't exist. It looks different for all of those people. And as long as my inner life is rich and I have incredible friends, incredible family, I have great experiences, I eat good food, I know what I like, and I love my little life, then that's all that matters. It's a very long-winded way of saying don't listen to the haters. But it's hard. Of course you read the comments. Of course you see the things. Of course you hear all people shout you on the street. It's horrible. It does affect you. But you just have to think that's not me. Whoever they're talking about is a different person. You're so wise. I think sometimes when you hear this advice, you feel like you have to be entirely impervious and just let it all bounce off you otherwise you're failing. But I love that idea that the projected image, she can deal with that

because it's not you. I find that very helpful. Yeah, I don't have to defend myself. Like, it's so much energy. And I'd rather put that energy into people that really deserve it and the things that I really love. People shout at you in the street. Oh yeah, it's happened. Like mean stuff. All the time. Sometimes they're just shouting words or names or lines from shows. I get a lot of people saying mean things about my eyes. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't bother me. Wow.

Sometimes in some lights, my eyes look really creepy and sometimes in some lights, my eyes look really good and gorge. It's all perspective. Everyone contains multitudes. Everyone looks good and bad. It depends on the perspective, on the day, how much sleep you've had. And it just doesn't, like, why does any of it matter? I guess that's where I'm at now. Right now I'm hypnotized by your eyes, which are like two of the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen. Thank you very much. So just put that on the record. That brings us back to the character

of Rhiannon because I do think you do a great job of portraying that duality on screen. She does visibly seem to inhabit herself and her looks the more powerful she becomes. And she also does something which I wonder if you can relate to because you have been so courageous and generous in the past and spoken about your own mental health journey. And Rhiannon pulls her hair, she's got this obsessive compulsion to pull her hair because she's bullied at school. I know that you've spoken about your years of self harm. Did you see a correlation between those two things? I did in the sense that they're both compulsive behaviors. So I did a lot of research into

the hair pulling, which is called trichotillomania. And it affects so many people, way more people than you'd think. And a lot of people describe it as almost a form of OCD. It's a compulsive thing that you don't even necessarily realize that you're doing. And I had that with self-harm. It wasn't always as sort of graphic or violent as you'd imagine. Sometimes it's as simple as digging your nails into yourself or pinching your own skin or just doing small tiny acts of violence, small tiny acts of pain. Subconscious, I suppose, is the right word for it. So sometimes when we were mapping out when Rhiannon's hands would go to her hair,

something that Ella did, our director, which I thought was really cool, was sometimes you'd cut to her and her hands would already be in her hair. You wouldn't see her hands go up there. You're not making a big plot point about it every time. It's just something that she lives with, it's something that she does. That's something that we talked about a lot was like, I didn't want it to be this big dramatic thing that was overplayed. It is something that there is a thought or a feeling that

every time Rhiannon has or feels, she impulsively pulls. Whether that's being maybe feeling worthless or feeling overlooked, you know, invisible or anything like that. Because a lot of parents listen to this podcast, and some teenagers, and I know parents who have struggled to understand when their teen is self-harming in some way. And I wonder if you could give one piece of advice or one piece of explanation to the parents listening, what would it be? The first thing I would say is that the biggest misconception with self harm is that people do it for attention.

And that is very rarely, if ever the case, a compulsive urge to hurt yourself or harm yourself very rarely comes from what other people see. It's more about how you feel about yourself. And it can be really, really damaging. It's so painful for a kid to go through, speaking from experience. And when you do look for support or open up about your experiences, to be told that you're doing it for attention because you're seeking something from other people, validation from other people, all that's going to do is push that person further and deeper inside themselves and make them

never want to ask for help ever again. There's so many fantastic resources out there. Young Minds is an amazing charity that I work with that offers so many different resources for parents and for young people, everyone really. There's tons of other ones, mine is another good one. I would say probably try to learn as much as you can before you talk to your kids so that you can come in maybe with the right language and a gentle technique. And we'll link to those in the show notes. Thank you, Ella. Final question on this. How do you feel about yourself now? I feel really good and I'm so glad I'm finally here. I never ever thought I'd be this okay,

ever. I had so many issues growing up. I really struggled with a lot of panic attacks, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. And that lasted a really long time. I was really in and out of it for years, up until 23, 24, and therapy changed my life. It wasn't easy and it didn't come for nothing, but I'm really happy. And I think the key thing is, this might be what self-confidence and self-esteem is built off.

I like myself, I'm proud of the way I behave. And so therefore it's like, I'm okay. I can sleep well at night. What you think or say about me doesn't bother me. Saying no to things I'm not comfortable with. I know I'm a good person and I know I'm doing my best. And so I feel all right. I'm happy. Beautiful. Your second failure is that you failed your friends and family on countless occasions. What do you mean by this? I prioritized work over everything else in my life for such a long time. I missed birthdays, I missed weddings, I missed engagement parties, graduation ceremonies, so much stuff.

And I'll never be able to get those back. I'll never be able to fix those things. And it was a mistake. And I really did feel like the worst friend in the world. And my friends have always been so, I do not deserve them. Like they have been so unconditionally loving and supportive. Not all of them. A few of them told me where to go. And have been so unconditionally loving and supportive. Not all of them, a few of them told me where to go. And rightfully so, because I was badly behaved and I did not value them or appreciate them as I should have. And that's a failure on my part because I just had this workaholicism that I think I

developed from being a child actor probably and from maybe not understanding that my worth is linked to not what I do, but who I am. I developed from being a child actor probably and from maybe not understanding that my worth is linked to not what I do but who I am. So for a long time I were like I had something to prove, probably because I did have something to prove. And it wasn't making me happy. It really wasn't. It got to a point where I was like, great, I'm doing really well in work, but like, have I got to share it with? And know, and now my friendships are the most important thing to me. My family, it's the pillar of who I am. And I actually don't want it with it if I can't have them. I don't want any of it. But I'd rather not have the career

that I have right now and still have my friends and my family. I'll do anything else to have them because it's the most important thing. When did you start wanting to act? Because you were acting from a very young age, but how conscious were you that it's what you wanted to do? I never thought about doing this at 28 years old. And it wasn't really until I was about 15, 16, and all my friends talking about what uni they were going to go to and what they wanted to be when they grew up. I was like, oh gosh, what am I going to do? And I really was racking my brains about what I was going to do. And my mom was like, oh gosh, what am I going to do? Then I really was racking my brains about what I was going to do.

My mom was like, well, you're going to be an actor. There was always this sort of voice in the back of my head that was like, do I want to be an actor or is this just something that I'm going to do because I'm already doing it? I'd like to make that choice on my own. I'd like to be an actor because I want to be an actor. So I had to think about it for a couple of years. I fell in and out of love with acting a million times.

I changed my mind a million times. I wanted to be a writer and then I wanted to be a teacher. I did do all of those other jobs. I was, as I was acting and I was at school, I was also, I was a drama teacher, I was a piano teacher, I was a math tutor. I don't know how because I'm terrible at maths. I tried all of these different things.

I got a place at uni to do creative writing and then I did a Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children with Tim Burton. Tim Burton has always been one of my heroes. I didn't know I could get jobs like that. I didn't know I could do it. I was like, wow, I actually had a goal and I achieved it. I thought about what kind of actor I'd be and what kind of actors I liked. Helen of Bonn Carter, number one favorite.

I thought about what directors I liked and what movies I liked. Edward Scissorhands and Tim Burton were like number one on top of the list. And then I actually got to work with him and it blew my mind. And I thought, well, hang on, if I can do that, maybe I will be an actor. And I kind of fell back in love with it on my own terms, which was necessary. Otherwise, I don't think I would still be doing it. How do you manage, for instance, friendship when your schedule is probably out of sync with a lot of other people's? It's probably very intense.

It's color coordinated, is what it is. Is it color coordinated? Okay. So yeah, tell me how you manage it and how you've managed it with your friends, how you've communicated this to them. I think it's about saying no and prioritizing and restructuring your life in a way that makes you happy. Figure out what makes you happy and then build your life around that. I realized that way too late. There's this analogy I read that are like, if you keep

sawing with a blunt blade, you're just putting in a lot of effort, but you're not really cutting the thing. You need to pull the saw out and sharpen the blade. I think about that a lot. You need to take a break. You need to say no to things, rest, refill the cup. And the way that I personally refill my cup is with friends and family. I wonder how much of it, and maybe none of it is, related to the fact that your parents got divorced when you were quite young. And I know that a lot of children of divorced parents shuttle from house to house and feel that they have to be perfect to be lovable. Does that relate in any way? Not so much because they divorced when I was one, so I sort of didn't know anything else.

And I think it's more about being a child actor. I think it's more about even when I was going between parents' houses, my life really kind of revolved around going to auditions and going to acting class and doing all of that stuff. It was more about wanting to make everyone else around me really proud of me for, in my though, recessions, I never really talk about the divorce. I talk a lot about being a child actor. Yeah, I guess because you didn't know any different because it did have more than one. It might be different if I was older and I had experienced my parents being together.

And also both my parents remarried when I was between the ages of five and 11. So I, for the most part, grew up with four parents. God, I had too much support. Too many parents. Everyone was really supportive. I guess I just, for whatever reason, really wanted to be a good job. And I could tell that they were all proud of me when I got jobs. And I suppose for a child that doesn't have

the emotional maturity or even the vocabulary to really understand what's going on fully, that was like, oh, I'm doing a good job, I must continue. Yes. I always really felt very good being able to tell people, calling my nan and being like, I got a movie. It made me feel proud to make other people proud.

I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery+.

You've always wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself. You live for experience and lead by example. You want the most out of life and realize what you're looking for is already in you. This is for you, the Canadian Armed Forces, a message from the Government of Canada. Let's get on to your final failure, which is failure to be perfect. And we were chatting before we started recording about the fact, you said, I bet that comes up a lot. And I said, well, less often than you think. And no man has ever stated it's one

of his failures. Which is not shocking, but not surprising. Exactly. Tell me why you feel this as a failure. I don't know. Why do we feel that? Why do we feel like anything less than perfection is a failure? Because perfection by definition, it should be impossible. It should be something that happens so rarely that when it does, it's magic. And we shouldn't expect to be able to achieve it. I have like a group of girlfriends in our 20 somethings and we call ourselves the 20

somethings. And this comes up all the time is the guilt that we feel for not being perfect. And I think for me personally, it's like, I just feel guilt. I feel so much guilt. I feel guilty all the time. I feel like I'm constantly falling behind, like I'm drowning or something. It's like I can never really catch up. I have this image of my life where like my inbox is on zero and I, you know, I've got all my Christmas presents bought and wrapped by November. That's being generous because in really I'd like it done by like August, but November's fine.

I never miss a birthday. I never miss a deadline. I'm on it all the time. I know what my top four favorite films are and I'm never going to be that person. And I just feel guilty every day. Do you know anyone who is that person? No. Do they exist? They don't exist. They don't, do they?

So I'm wondering what standards you're holding yourself to because those other women in that group, 20-somethings, I'm presuming you love them and think they're great and they must not be perfect either because that's impossible. So is there some sort of internal comparison mechanisms that is happening for you? My perfectionism, I think it's a form of OCD. It kind of revolves around my mind constantly. I'm constantly ruminating on my flaws and that comes from a place of lack. It comes from what's wrong with me. What can I fix next? And I think even therapy and, and like, you know, working on yourself can even that can be used as a tool of like self-lagelation if you don't

like yourself enough. Do you know what I mean? Because you're constantly focusing on what you don't have and what's wrong with you. I think it can be very difficult, especially I love wellness. I'm really into, as we know, therapy, mental health, working on yourself, but I also think it can be quite toxic. And if there's an, you know, it's a very, very delicate line focusing on what's wrong with me and how can I fix it? And how can I optimize my life and treat myself with the love, the respect and the compassion that I deserve. Preach so well expressed, so well expressed, because your uniqueness and your talent comes partly from your flaws. That is what makes you you. Love that.

And it's so beautiful. And it's what this podcast is all about. Because when we have the courage to be open about our vulnerabilities, that's the access point for other people to connect. And that's what you do in your work. It is the ultimate act of connection with others and it helps us make sense of our lives. And so I never want you to eradicate those imperfections because they're actually the things that make you perfect for so many other people. You are perfectly imperfect.

Yeah. Reframing trauma as the gift of human connection. It's a bonding thing. And you become best friends. Yes. That's lovely. What you think of as the most personal, the most shameful thing often turns out to have more universal resonance than you could ever have imagined. I think that's such a powerful place to end on. I've got a tattoo that says Only Connect. I know you've got loads of amazing tattoos. I want to ask you about them on Failing with Friends because you're staying to answer

listener questions and failures. But I have really adored chatting to you. I think you've got such a wise head on young shoulders. Thanks, it's the trauma. The trauma is your gift. Thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. And before we go, I must remember to say Sweet Pea, which I found completely riveting. I can't wait to watch the rest of it. I've only been given a select few episodes. Sweet Pea is available on Sky and the streaming service now. Ella Purnell, thank you so much for coming on How to Feel. Thank you for having me. We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land. On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Please tell all your friends and your enemies too. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.