How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Ellie Simmonds - Being different is a superpower.

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

Paralympic swimmer Ellie Simmonds OBE has won five - count ‘em - Gold Medals. Amazingly, her first two were at the age of 13 and she’s set two world records. But she happily admits she learned more ‘from the races that didn’t go well’. Ellie talks to me about putting an intense amount of pressure on herself, never being able to switch off and how she still struggles with that now - especially when it comes to getting enough sleep. She also opens up very movingly about being adopted as a baby and growing up in a family that celebrated difference. We also chat about why there’s still so much more education needed around disability and why travel has taught her to counter her fear of being out of control. An amazing woman. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com  Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream  Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Justin Richmond, host of the Broken Record podcast. Join me along with co-host Leah Rose as we sit down with the artists you love to get unparalleled creative insight. You'll hear revealing interviews with some of the most legendary figures in music like Paul Simon, Usher, Pete Townsend, Damon Albarn of the Gorillaz, and Missy Elliott. And you'll hear from up and comers like jazz artist, Leve, who told me about her fast rise to fame during the pandemic. Listen to Broken Record on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, it's Elizabeth Dayeux, and as you can hear, I have a croaky throat. I'm really sorry. I can reassure you it's not painful. I just appear to be speaking like Kermit the Frog today. So you'll hear that throughout the interview, but it's worth persevering because Ellie Simmons is the most fantastic and generous guest. And I really hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that treats every failure as a lesson wrapped up in a mistake. Did you know that each week I ask my esteemed guests to give advice on your failures and answer your questions? In Failing With Friends, we open the floor to you, my dear listeners. This week, you'll hear more from Ellie.

Our performance director always used to say, join Atkinson, control the controllables. That is so powerful. There's a lot of pressure on things that are outside of our control. So much of what we're going through is universal, even though it feels specifically personal. So do join in by following the link in the podcast notes.

Given that Ellie Simmons won two Paralympic gold medals at the age of 13, you might ask yourself what she could possibly know about failure, but stay tuned. Born in Derbyshire, Simmons was adopted when she was three months old and grew up in Walsall, the youngest of five children. Her family had a swimming pool and she had an early interest in the sport, eventually moving part-time with her mother to Swansea to take advantage of the city's world-class facilities. Simmons' sporting success has been astonishing. She went on to win five gold medals and set two world records in doing so. One for the 400m freestyle, one for the 200m medley. She has won 10 gold world championship titles as well as the 2008 BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year award and is still just age 29, an OBE for services to Paralympic sport.

After retiring from competitive swimming in 2021, Simmons has gone on to present for BBC Sport as well as becoming a familiar presence on our screens through shows such as Strictly Come Dancing and my favourite, Goggle Box. Simmons who has achondroplasia is a person of short stature and has experienced her fair share of discrimination and ignorance. So her decision to embrace a public profile post-retirement has an important underlying motivation. If kids see different types of people growing up, she says, there won't be that staring, there won't be that stigma. Ellie Simmons, welcome to

How to Fail. Oh, thank you so much. I love how you said, a chondroplasia right as well. Did I? Good. Yeah, I know that was amazing. I know that was really, really good. No, but that was wonderful. Thank you very much for the introduction. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you today. I'm so honoured that you're here. And whilst you are a multiple gold medallist and we don't have that in common, what we do have in common is that we're both Scorpios.

Oh yeah. And your birthday is the day after mine. Oh wow. Different years, vastly different years. And you know who else shares your 11th November birthday? Leonardo DiCaprio. Does he? Yeah, yeah.

Adam Stanley Tucci. Oh wow, oh he's lovely isn't he? Yeah. Just charisma central over here. Anyway, I digress. Tell me a little bit about that quote that I chose to end on, which is your underlying motivation for having a public profile and you're so brilliant and natural on our screens. But where does that need come from? I think the need comes from, I just don't want any children to feel

uncomfortable or to feel upset with who they are and especially when they have a disability. So I feel like for me I've got this incredible opportunity enrolled now to help show that we can do anything no matter what. So and you you know TV, media is so powerful and if you see yourself on TV or similarities on TV and see people just doing everyday things I think it can help change society and educate in a natural way. In a way it's like now it's that responsibility because I know what it's like even sometimes now you get a few looks, you get a few name calls, and even though people have seen me in the media and seen me on TV, it still happens,

and you still hear stories as well about children or even teenagers, adults, getting like shouted at, getting name called, getting a bit of abuse, and you just, we hope now that in 2024, that that has changed, but there's still definitely a lot of encounters. So I feel like if I could just try and do my little bit, so children and people with different disabilities just feel a bit more comfortable in society and feel like there's

no nerves to go out and about, then hopefully that I can help play a part. You say that you occasionally still experience that name-calling? I think it was like three years ago actually, yeah, where I remember we were walking and shopping and this individual was like on his phone to his friend and he said, look what's in front of us, look what's in front of us, I'm going to change my camera so you can see. Just things like that, which if I'm having that just a little bit, but what's everyone else having as well? I've definitely heard stories from other people with different disabilities that, yeah, definitely get a bit of name calling. Again, social media, you always have it, I think, don't you? That's a small percentage, you know? And there's

still some amazing people out there who reach out and say thank you and congratulate me still. My performance is from London 2012. And I'm like, guys, that's 12 years ago now. But still, I think the power of London 2012 and what it did for Paralympic sport and for disabled sport as well, it was life changing. And now again, we've got the Olympics and Paralympics this year.

I know it's every four years, but that power of change and for people, seeing people with different disabilities doing sport to the elite level that hopefully again it can inspire children that they can do absolutely anything. What's it like winning a gold medal at 13? I don't really remember much from Beijing. I wish I could go back and do it all again. I was so young that actually that had a bit of a helping hand in a way, because I think for me if I was a lot older, I would have taken the pressure more on my shoulders,

because I think when you're young, you just think it's like an everyday competition really. You just go out and you just compete and do the sport that you love, never thinking actually how big of a competition it actually is. Going into those games, there was no pressure, no expectations. It was a shock for me to even qualify. My focus was London 2012. We knew, I think, back in 2005, you know, when Seb Coe and David Beckham and Dame Kelly Holmes announced that the games were happening in London 2012. That's when the excitement for me was that, oh yeah, I'd love to go to London, never think in Beijing. So in a way, as a 13 year old, I just remember thinking, oh wow, this is amazing getting a gold medal.

I wasn't fully aware until probably London 2012 when the gold medals were happening in front of a home crowd. Where do you keep your gold medals? Normally at my parents' house. But sometimes I take my London gold, my Beijing gold, and my Rio gold. I just put them in my wardrobe. They're in socks in a bag,

and I take them to schools and stuff with me. So when people would like to see the medals. I want to talk to you a bit about your family because they sound really special and you described it as a family that celebrated differences. Oh yeah. You were the youngest of five. Yeah.

So tell me a bit about that celebration of differences and what it's like being the youngest of five. Yeah, I think me and my mom moved to Swansea when I was 12 years old to train at the High Performance Centre and I think if I didn't do that move, I probably wouldn't have made Beijing and the success that I had in London. So I think for me, it was perfect time and being the youngest, my next sister older to me

was going to her university, so was moving away from home. My other siblings had moved out of home. Yeah, we all have different disabilities and also all of us are adopted as well and we've seen my parents used to foster as well. So we've seen so many different walks of life coming through the house and coming through the door and I think for me that's definitely helped me accept who I am and also being open to talking about adoption and knowing I've been adopted from such a young age. I can't even remember when they told me but it's just something we've just been brought up

knowing. I think for me that's helped with being who I am and celebrating who I am and I think in a way my personality is I'm very very competitive, very very driven, like my mom is competitive. So I think having a bit of that in me has helped me with this success in the pool and swimming. But we're very much aware of being who we are and that you could do anything no matter what. And you might have to adapt, like do it in different ways to everyone else, but you can still get that. And that's definitely been ingrained into me by my parents, Val and Steve.

Your parents sound amazing, amazing people. That competitive nature and your openness about adoption, I know, is so valued by so many people. Thank you. You made such an extraordinarily moving documentary about searching, finding your birth mother and you have reconnected with her. Would you mind telling us what you discovered about why she put you up for adoption? Because there was a fact sheet, I put that in quotes, that she was given that I found so unbelievably moving in all the most terrible ways. And I can't imagine what it was like for

you to find that out. Could you tell us that? Yeah, yeah. So I went through my journey of finding my birth mother. I'd waited in a way since I retired because I knew when I was an athlete that it couldn't be very emotional in a way and I didn't want any distractions as well. Throughout this journey that I was going to find my birth mother, I found out that the information that my birth mother got given when I was a baby, so nearly 30 years now because I'm 30 in November, November 11th, the day before you. And I found out that the fact sheet that she got given was that having a dwarfism meant that job-wise we're likely to go into the

circus, we were not intelligent, we were going to be stupid, we were going to be laughed at a lot. And I think when you're vulnerable, and again I've never had children so I don't know, but from my friends and people who I know who have had children, you're in a vulnerable situation, you're exhausted, you're tired, all that type of stuff. For her to, again she hasn't known anyone with a disability, and then to give this information that your child's different, but this is maybe the way that it's going to be for her. And I know there was lots of other factors for her as well too, so it wasn't just my disability being one of the factors, there was also other

things as well going on. It's scary that even 30 years ago, people with a disability and dwarfism were seen like that in society and that's why I hope that now it changes and it is change, it has changed so, so much but I think there's still a lot more education that the medical professions and the support system around could do to help people who have found out their child has a different disability. We'll get onto your failures now, but before we do, I wanted to ask you about language. Because I've noticed that you say disability and dwarfism. And I wondered how you felt

about those terms. Because I know some people would find them unnecessarily negative. Yeah, it doesn't label who I am. I'm Ellie, at the end of the day, but I do have dwarfism. I am a dwarf and I do have a disability. And I think those words are educational, you know, and there's nothing against them at all. And I think again, it's who I am. It doesn't define me, but it's still words that I'm going to get used and that I'll use and I think, yeah, there's nothing to hide behind them. I love that and thank you because I wanted to be respectful. Let's get on to your failures because you did a very generous thing. I mean, you can hear listeners that Ellie is incredibly compassionate and generous to her call. You gave me four failures instead of the requisite

three. So we're going to rattle through them. There's so much to talk about. And I've switched around the order a little bit. But your first failure is your failure to stop putting pressure on yourself, both as an athlete and in work now. I always want to be better and better all the time. I'm always looking for that next thing. And I do put a lot of pressure on myself and especially when I was an athlete. But even more now I think into this next chapter of life. I knew I was good at swimming, and I knew in a way that was where my talent was, and having medals, I think, helped you realise

that actually you're good at it, because when you've got a gold medal around your neck, you know you're the best in the world, so that gives you naturally a confidence. Whereas now it's like, actually, what actually am I good at? Like, I'm loving all these TV opportunities and things like, you say, Google box and documentaries and the documentary getting a BAFTA. But actually, I don't know if I'm good at it

and I'm, yeah, my worst enemy in a way that I do put pressure on thinking, I'm actually good. I need to work harder, I need to be better, I need to, like, I'm evaluating all the time. But I think a lot of people do that, don't they, out there when, you know, you're lying down in bed and you're like, why did I say this? I could have done this better. I could have done that better.

Like I'm definitely like one of my personality traits and it's a bad thing, but also a good thing. I'm a worrier. I worry about everything and the pressure that I put on myself to be the best that I can be now into this work life is tough. And it is, I wish in a way that I wasn't as pressurized on myself, that I wasn't thinking about being better all the time, that I could just, I do enjoy it, like not saying that, I'm very thankful for everything I get to do. But just, yeah, not have to think that worry

in the back of my mind to be better and better and to improve all the time. I feel exactly the same. And I think sometimes the danger is the comparison with other people. Do you compare yourself with others or is it a pressure that you put on yourself to exceed your own expectations?

Both. Yeah. very much so. I even did it on Strictly. I compared myself all the time to like, so Molly and Fleur, who are incredible humans, beautiful both on the inside and out, but they're average height, they're non-disabled, they can dance perfectly, but I wanted to dance like them. And I knew I couldn't, but I still wanted to dance like them.

And then, yeah, now with this thing, I'm always like, I said this wrong, or I said that. They sound amazing, but I'm not sounding good. But I think we all probably do it, don't we, in different aspects, but I know I do. I do it most days, and I try not to. But in a way, I used to do it a lot when I was a swimmer. I had to be always analysing what my competitors were doing so I could have my race tactics in place so I

knew that what they were doing in the water, I could use my strengths against them. So maybe it's just a natural progression of when I was a swimmer into this next chapter of life. Do you think you were competitive by nature before you were a swimmer? Oh yeah, very, very much so. Always have been. You know when you play board games with your siblings or you race at the school sports day, I've always, always been very, very competitive. Even without swimming or without this thing in life. It's just ingrained into me.

And would it upset you if you didn't do well at school sports day or you lost a board game? Irrationally at the start, yes, it would. But then I'm like, oh, it's only a competition. It's only like a board game. It's something like that. And the next day I would be fine about it. But at the time I'd be like, yeah, very like, oh, you know how, oh. I wouldn't be angry. I wouldn't be like a sore loser. I'm definitely not one of them,

but I would be like upset from the inside. Definitely. You didn't analyze it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wonder how much of that comes from this need to be as perfect as you can be, given that you were adopted. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does actually. Like you're trying to prove someone wrong. Yeah, and actually since when going through the whole journey of adoption, I've met with so many charities that actually we've spoke about it, rejection from the word go,

having that rejection as soon as you're born and getting put into the care system and then put into fostering and then into families. Apparently it does leave a scar on you, which you never really think about, you never really evaluate, but in the back of the mind that that rejection is there inside you. So I think, yeah, it must be. It must be trying to prove something to someone else inside that actually I'm okay, that I can do it,

that I'm always proving myself to someone because of the start. Definitely, that's definitely a factor. Has that had a knock-on impact with romantic relationships? The reason I'm asking you this is because I see so much of myself in you. Yeah, I'm very much a big... But again, one of my personalities is that I'm always looking for something else. I'm always looking... The grass is greener on the other side. I'm always looking for that next thrill, that next opportunity, that next high. Even when I sit down and chat to my dad a lot,

I can never settle in one place. If you think about it, I've moved so many houses, so many different, I've moved houses like no other's business, even when I think I've got a nice house and I love it there. I'm always looking for another house or to move to another place. I'm always looking for something. And

definitely that's been a factor in relationships for sure. I'm always just, yeah, again, I think, again, it's that confidence though as well, isn't it? I'm always thinking, am I good enough for someone else? Definitely. I think, I mean, I know we've only just met, but I think you're amazing. Oh, thank you very much I think you're amazing. Thank you very much. You're so lovable and perfect. Oh thank you. Exactly as you are and you're such a natural on TV. Oh thank you. So please don't stop doing it because we love watching you. Oh thank you very much. So you've got to take who you are and just nourish it and look after it and I give myself like at the

moment I'm chocka but I'm looking forward to having a few days off in the future and just being with friends, being with family and doing things there that just puts that energy and battery back in. I think you are clearly so self-aware and you understand the negatives, but you're right that this sort of motivation comes with a real positive, which is it gives

you drive. Yeah. Like you're constantly questing and that's kind of amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing with personalities and who we are. I wouldn't have got what I did in my swim in with the achievements of Beijing, London, especially Rio, and then onwards after that. And now in this life life I'm very much very driven. I love being busy even though sometimes I love a day off but it's funny I love a day off but then I'm like wanting to work again. So but it's yeah I love being

busy and just being doing stuff all the time and yeah being working hard. Given that we've talked about winning I wonder what it's like when you lose a competitive race as a swimmer. How did you cope with that and what did you learn from it on the rare occasions that it did happen? Do you know what? Actually losing, I remember my first race I lost at a world championships was 2015 Glasgow and I was actually absolutely mortified. I beat myself up so so much I was so upset with myself but I remember at the time that's how I was very rational very to show the emotions very very angry took it out on myself because it was me that did the race

and did it wrong. But then the next day, I remember being so motivated and getting my whole team around me, my coach, my biomechanist, all the other team members, and just we sat down and we looked at every bit of my race and every bit of the preparation and we thought, this is what went wrong, all this type of stuff. And then the next day, when the race had finished and the competition had finished and I had a bit of a time out from the water, had a break and then got back in, I was so motivated to get back in because I didn't want to feel like that again. And I think actually sometimes when races don't go well, or things don't go well, we learn a lot more about ourselves.

Because for me, like say like London 2012, when I had great successful games, I was on a high all the time and I never evaluated my races because I was just so high. I was so happy with how I was racing. I didn't sit down in any of my races and look evaluate with my coach or anything because we were just on a highway where we'd gone from drugs

testing to all the media to the medal ceremony to the media afterwards to all the highs and then it just flew by and I was just so happy. Whereas the races that didn't go well, I just remember evaluating everything, watching them all the time, looking about how I could improve, all that type of stuff. And yeah, those were the races, actually. I learned more about my swimming abilities than when races went well. [♪ music playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes playing, chimes Hey moms, looking for some lighthearted guidance on this crazy journey we call parenting? Join me, Sabrina Kohlberg. And me, Andi Mitchell, for Pop Culture Moms.

Where each week we talk about what we're watching. And examine our favorite pop culture moms up close to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn, and grow with us, as we look for the best tips. And maybe a few what not to do's from our favorite fictional moms. From Good Morning America and ABC Audio, pop culture moms, find it wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Candice Lim and I'm the host of Icy YMI, Slate's podcast about internet culture.

My guests and I are like your internet historians of the past, present, and future. Fyre Festival as one of these monocultural internet events. Of the good, the bad, and the truly unhinged. I would rather work at Wal-Mart on Black Friday. From nuanced takes to trending stories to ones you wish you heard about. In case you missed it, that's Icymi, the podcast that's extremely online so you don't have to be. Follow now wherever you're listening. Do you miss competitive swimming?

No, I don't. Don't you? No, I don't. I miss the high that you get. I miss when a training session, when you push yourself through that red zone and your body is an engine and you just give it everything you've got and you're physically, emotionally exhausted, but you're just, the high that you get afterwards when it's gone really, really well and you've just pushed yourself to its limits.

I miss that. I miss that high. And especially in racing when you get that high afterwards. It's like a drug. like it's an addiction. Like you just wanna be feel on top of the world all the time. You have to sacrifice a lot of stuff. You have to live and breathe your sport.

Everything that you do revolves around swimming because say if you walk to the shops, you've got to think about your legs. Are they gonna tie your legs out? You've got to think about, can I go out for drinks? Because, like, again, I didn't drink when I was a swimmer, but what time I'm going to go to bed, am I going to get a good night's sleep? If I don't get a good night's sleep, I might be tired for training sessions. All this type of stuff, like, it's going through your head all the time.

I don't miss that, because there's a lot of pressure and a lot of sacrifice and now I can just, I can have a drink whenever I want. If I don't sleep that well, yes, it does affect me, but it's not the be all and end all. I can still cope off it with a lot of caffeine, a lot of expressos, but I'm still okay. I don't miss that, but I miss the team. I miss being with my best friends every single day

and the motivation that they bring, being able to travel the world all the time, competing all the time. That whole team thing is definitely, it's like family because you're with each other all the time. You're going through your highs and lows together. You're just like my teammates who I was when I was a swimmer are my best friends now. We've all retired now but it's not the same as being with each other every day. Everyone's gone on their different paths of life but that's what I miss and represented my country at Paralympics or in a world championships, the honor that that gives. Do you think that swimming helped you take failure less personally? Swimming is a single sport. Yes,

you've got the team around you, but it's still you at the end of the day. It's still your body getting pushed to its limits. So I think for me, failure, I've definitely, I blame it a lot myself. I'll always try everything. And if I fail, I fail. So I'm not scared of failing. We don't like to fail. But no, you don't want to actively pursue it. You can deal with it if it comes along. Yeah. Well, let's go back to those early days when you were training as a swimmer in Swansea, because it leads us on to your second failure, which is your failure in your GCSE Welsh. So I moved to Swansea when I was 12 years old.

And when you say you moved to Swansea, it was you and your mum moved to Swansea during the week and then you would go back home at the weekends. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, no, that's right. So your dad Steve was at home with older children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he couldn't move as well because of work. But yeah, a huge sacrifice that they made as a couple, but then also as a family as well. So you started learning Welsh at school in Swansea then? Yeah I did in year seven and then yeah had to do it for GCSE as well so I got a U in GCSE because I love my time in Wales. For me Wales has got a big place in my heart and if I hear a Welsh accent it just takes me back to those times in Swansea, in my favourite school, Alcfair.

I love my school time. I love my friends there. I loved, we went to the beach all the time, went to Mumbles, Joe's Ice Cream, all that type of stuff. And we had a great training as well. For me, if I could learn Welsh, like I know a few words, but have a proper Welsh conversation, it would just mean that I could just, yeah, take me back to Wales and anytime and just speak the language. I remember a lot of my times I was away from school, training, camps, competing, World Series,

all that type of stuff. Like I remember doing my GCSEs in a Spanish school because we were training abroad. If I gave more time to my Welsh studies then I hopefully could have maybe passed and be fluent in Welsh now. But I think what's so beautiful about this failure is that you wanted to do it to show your love for a particular place because it gave so much to you. And I'm very intrigued to hear you say that your school days were so good because so many people come on this podcast and have had really tough times at school, but it sounds like it was a very positive experience for

you. What was the worst thing about training during those years? What was the thing that would always make your heart sink if you're like, oh, I've got to do this bit? Diving in to the cold when it was especially wintertime. But then also what I really found hard was because I trained from like six till eight, I had to go from straight from training to school and my hair was always so wet and smelt of chlorine. And you know when you're when you're older in school, you can do your hair and the makeup really nicely. I was never able to do that because I was going from training to school. So in one thing growing up I wish that I had more time to look nicer, but school was definitely,

I just used to put my hair up in a bun because I was just like, I've got wet hair. Like I'm about to swim in the afternoon as well. I didn't put my makeup on or anything. And I wish, yeah, I could give myself a bit more time to look a bit nicer. And to spend in the chlorine and the wet hair is definitely the thing I don't miss.

Will you tell me a bit about your older siblings and what you feel you learned from being the youngest of that group? Yeah, so we've very much got a big age gap to my next sister Katie being 34, 35. And then my brother is turning 40, then my next sister is 50, and then my sister Georgina who sadly passed away in 2013, she was like 45. But we very much- I'm so sorry. Oh no, it's all right.

We've all very much got a big like age gap. What I learnt from them really is just, again, I missed a lot of childhood growing up because I was away all the time with being an athlete. I think that's one of the biggest regrets. It's definitely, we're not as close as probably siblings should be. Do you mind my asking what happened with Georgina? She died in 2013 due to a heart problem. So again, we're all adopted and one of her genetics things was heart problem.

And sadly, yeah, it got to her in 2013. When people ask you how many siblings you have, is that a difficult question? No, not really, because I still have five siblings and she'll always be someone to remember. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, I don't know, it's alright.

We've got two failures now to choose from because of your generosity. Which shall we go for? Let's go for your failure to sleep. Oh yeah. Are you a terrible sleeper? I'm very much a terrible sleeper so if anybody has any help with sleeping. But I've always been, even when I was younger, apparently my parents said I just never slept. Even when I was an athlete, especially in Tokyo, when there was races that were really, really tough, I probably only slept like two hours a night. I'm just, I think again, with one of my other failures,

I think a lot, I'm always worrying. So sleep time is very much that time when my brain is just alive and I just think about absolutely everything. And especially when work's heightened and I've got a lot of work going on, I have to think about absolutely everything and I worry about like, yeah, what do I have to wear for this? Saying the wrong thing, trying to fit everything in. Now I've realised that I'm trying to make sure that gym is a priority, or going and doing exercise, because again, that helps me mentally.

So trying to make sure I can fit gym in. There's so much going on that that's when it comes alive at night, I know, in a way, I shouldn't be, but I'm jealous to those people that when they've got so much going on, they just shut off and can sleep, because that's just not me. So sleep time is definitely limited very much. So it also must have been incredibly stressful when you had a big

competition and you couldn't sleep the night before. Yeah. Because then you're worried about not sleeping. I think in a way it helped that I've always known I wasn't a good sleeper and I never used to sleep much when I race. So it wasn't a Rory because it was just norm. And I knew that adrenaline could get me going. So throughout those 11 days at a Paralympics,

I'll be all right, that afterwards it would kill me. I would be exhausted. But during the whole moment, I knew that it was just a thing that I used to do and it was just a norm. And do lots of well-meaning people give you advice all the time? They're like, oh, switch off your phone, have a bath and read a book. All that type of stuff.

Is that annoying? It's nice because they're looking out for me. Being okay with it and being aware that that's actually how I am, then I feel okay the next day and I know that I can do it. Normally four or five o'clock, that's the time where I'm just like, I need to stop, but I think everyone feels that, don't they? I think the recurring theme throughout this conversation is self-acceptance. And I think that's a very beautiful way of putting it. You sort of know yourself and therefore you're not going to put unnecessary pressure on yourself

to be different. Yeah, yeah. As an acceptance there. Yeah, no, very much so. Like, again, having a disability and being different, I know what it's like to accept who I am. And hopefully maybe when I'm older, I can sleep for England. Exactly.

You can be a competitive sleeper. Yeah, literally I'd love that. Your final failure actually kind of wraps up a lot of what we've been talking about, which is your failure to live in the moment. Yeah, for me, very much when I was an athlete, I was always like, say a championship had just finished, done really, really well. We're always looking at the next thing, we know we're two weeks off, then we're back in training, ready to train for the next championship. So in the next competition, we've got that four-year plan, we've got that year plan,

we've got that week plan, we've got that day plan. Being in that moment, just soaking it all in, is just one of the things that I would love to do more and more. And I'm getting better as I'm getting older. Every moment of London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics just flew, and I wish that I could just stop for a sec in every single day in every moment and just take it all in. I've got photos and they're great memories but sometimes just like looking at the sky what's the colour of the sky or what's someone wearing or just those

little memories that sometimes you remember when you stop. I just wish I could do that and it's like I said I'm getting better and better but still I'm always looking at that next goal and next task even now in this work mode life What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend to powers your scale with no preset spending limit more cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days. And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca business platinum.

Terms and conditions apply. Visit animex.ca slash business platinum. Xtree Xtree, your favorite anime is getting a new season. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Lee-Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. Every week, you can listen in while we break down the latest pop culture news and dish

on what new releases we can't get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on The Anime Effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. How are you feeling about turning 30? It's only a number and I'm trying to think that but I'm always like I don't really want to be 30 because I remember Like when I was younger I looked at 30 year olds and they look like they had a job

They had everything and they looked they looked old and I don't feel But you know what me like 30 year olds when you're young you always think 30 year olds are very much like, they've got everything together and they've got, their life is planned out and everything. Where, yeah, my life is definitely a rollercoaster and it's got some great opportunities, but it's definitely not planned out. I think I'm going to go to Australia to celebrate it because I'm working over there so I'm going to extend the trip and stay over

there because I love travelling, it's one of my hobbies. I can remember when I was turning 30 and my fear was no one would ever think I was young to be doing what I was doing again because I wasn't at your level in any way shape or form in life but I was like a young journalist and people were kind of like, oh my gosh, can't believe you were born in 1978. That sounds so ancient now. And I thought, oh, I'll never get that again. And actually, that wasn't true, number one. Yeah. Number two, there is such a sense of agency and relief that comes from actually turning 30. That it ends up being really empowering.

Yeah, that's what a lot of people have said to me. You know who you are, but you can still do what you stuff that you did in your 20s, but you've definitely got that air of confidence and knowing that you're okay. Yes, exactly. And you were talking there about how when you were competing, there was always a plan. And I wonder how much you have a you were competing, there was always a plan. And I wonder how much you have a long-term plan now. Like where do you see yourself in 10 years time? You know, I am the total opposite to me

what I was as an athlete. Every day is totally different and I love that. You've spoken a bit about your love of travel. And I know that after Rio, you took a year out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had a gap year basically. Yeah, yeah, no I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And went traveling. And I really would love to know more about that. Where was the most

amazing place you visited? Where did you feel most at home? I love Vietnam. Again, I love the coffee and the food there and the travels that we had. And then I loved my favourite ever country is Madagascar. I've been to Madagascar. Isn't it amazing? Yes, the lemurs. Literally beautiful, like both the beaches and just the beauty and like the whole experience. I went with my friend Hanley and she did a trip with ocean conservation and stuff and I just had the best two weeks and I thought it was just wonderful.

Again, I know probably a lot of people think, say it, but Australia as well, I love Australia. I know it's quite similar to the UK. I just feel, I love the vibe, I love the outdoorsy feel, but again, it feels a bit like you're at home as well. What do you think travel has taught you about yourself? Being okay on my own, definitely. Knowing, being very independent, very, like I know that getting flights all the time

where I'm gonna stay booking hotels, the spontaneity and just yeah the confidence of being all like sitting at a coffee shop on my own. I love doing that abroad. I was about to ask you if you went for dinner on your own when you travel. Yeah yeah I do sometimes yeah definitely. Is there an element of uncertainty because different cultures have different attitudes to disability? Yeah, exactly. Like some of the countries actually, like say Vietnam, Thailand, I went with my friends,

so I wasn't, but like Madagascar the first week I was on my own. There's very much you see the difference, but a lot of countries I found have been just lovely. Like I went to the Caribbean islands and so friendly, so welcoming, so supportive. In Beijing I was travelling on my own and I found that a bit uncomfortable being out there on my own. Maybe being a woman, maybe being British, having a disability, all those factors. But yeah, that was probably the most time I felt uncomfortable. As you're talking, I just feel that you sound like someone who is fearless. That you're really like courageous. I do get nervous a lot though.

Do you? But do you feel fear much? Do you know, my fear is being out of control. Like even planes now, I get nervous for going on planes, which I never ever used to. And even sometimes at the end of my career going into Tokyo, I used to fear stuff in the water, like the depth of the water being three metres. I used to hate that. I used to be able to get scared that it was too deep in the water, but I've never felt like that before. Even like Tokyo, the training blocks were red, where we used to always train in blue.

And the different colour, it just got to me mentally. So I think as I've got older, there's definitely a lot more things that have definitely got to me and I'm scared of and I'm more nervous of than when I was when I was younger. Yeah, I'm more scared of flying as well. I completely relate. I had hypnotherapy for it, particularly turbulence. Oh, did you? I can't. Is turbulence what get you?

Yes. Oh, wow. Is it like just the motion or? Yes. It's what you said about being out of control and suspended mid-air. Yeah. And also I think there's something about the altitude that makes me feel really emotional anyway so I'm always crying at like mediocre films. They say that though don't they?

That like being in the air where you're more emotional, alcohol gets to you more as well. Yes. I know. What are we going to do? Yeah, no, actually. I know, and that's one of the things. I love travelling, but I always get so nervous before a flight. I always ask people to voice message me so I can listen to voice messages to try and distract me or just try and talk to people. I'm like the most chattiest on flying because I try and pick some,, well I hope that my people next to me want to talk and not want to settle down so that I could try and distract my mind.

I promise to talk to you anytime I find myself next to you on a long flight. I want to thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. You know what I wish for you? Just a big long rest. I just want you to have like a proper holiday because you deserve that. Maybe that's what you should do for your 30th. I know you're going to be in Australia. Yeah.

You are such an inspiration. I don't use that word lightly. Oh, thank you. And you are such a pure bolt of good energy. Oh, thank you. And it's been a real pleasure talking to you today. And our lucky listeners get even more of you if they subscribe to Failing with Friends

because you're about to answer their questions, their problems and their failures. So you're staying for that bit, aren't you? Thank you so much for coming on Hire to Fail. Thank you. Do follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Share a link and spread the love. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.