How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Emily Atack - ‘I’ve forgiven people for unforgivable things’

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

*triggers: contains description of physical assault Emily Atack left school at 16, confident she wouldn’t need a GCSE for what she wanted to do: act. It turns out, she was correct. She starred as Charlotte Hinchcliffe in the smash-hit comedy The Inbetweeners when she was just 17 and is currently on our screens as Sarah Stratton in Disney+’s hit drama Rivals, as well as co-hosting a new ITV game show, Nobody’s Fool, with Danny Dyer. But it hasn’t always been easy: she faced sexual harassment and abuse from the age of 10. We talk about the impact this has had on how she now understands her own capabilities and about how her unbreakable bond with her sister, Martha, has helped her survive the toughest challenges. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction to Emily 03:19 Learning Boundaries 05:33 Class and Growing Up 07:39 Paul McCartney Connection 10:00 Failing to Believe In Herself 14:58 Leaving Home at Sixteen 25:10 Inbetweeners Fame Fallout 30:18 Praise for Rivals 31:23 Earning Creative Trust 32:51 Emotional Regulation Struggles 35:40 Forgiveness and Loneliness 37:20 Childhood Trauma and Sex 41:35 Alistair and Finding Home 46:52 Motherhood and Body Image 55:19 Keeping Nice Things and Goodbye 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: So many people don’t take responsibility for their failures…. Which is why this podcast is so great. Forgiveness is something you have to find in yourself I hate being called fat - it hurts my feelings. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Emily hosts ‘Nobody’s Fool’, a brand new strategic quiz show with Danny Dyer, available to stream on ITVX, with the final three episodes airing on 30th, 31st May and the final on 1st June at 9pm on ITV1 and ITVX Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Katherine Parkinson - Fresh from her latest BAFTA win, Katherine Parkinson joined Elizabeth to discuss the self-doubt, trauma, humour and resilience that shaped her journey from awkward outsider to one of Britain’s most beloved actors: swap.fm/l/CplscDFzT9oyNGV1Oan0 Danny Dyer – the actor and national treasure on identity, anger, vulnerability and learning to break the patterns you were born into: swap.fm/l/L192dU5DZHQnCUjFWuX8 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Emily answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] _________________________________________________________________________ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I just needed to pay the rent. So it was kind of like, I have to get this job. There's no, there's, you know, I can't fail at this. But Rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well. I remember somebody saying to me when I was younger, nobody's coming to save you. And I've never actually told anybody this. This episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that firmly believes failure is what makes us human.

Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. You're no longer young people. You're just people. And people are either productive or dead weight. It's my first day of work and I need to make a big impression. Were you just checking me out? No. It's too bad. I see at least 15 ladies I need to talk to you before my beta block and wears off. My coworkers don't take me seriously. It's not a human. It's just a piece of meat. Someone bring a gurney.

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Emily Aitak was raised in Bedfordshire, the daughter of an actress and a musician, and also, somewhat surprisingly, the first cousin twice removed of Sir Paul McCartney. She grew up surrounded by people who made their living in show business. So when she left school at 16, she was confident, she later said, that she wouldn't need a GCSE for what she wanted to do. This, it turned out, was acting. And she was proved right, landing her first audition. playing a footballer's girlfriend in the TV show Blue Murder. But it was as Charlotte Hinchcliffe in the smash-hit comedy The In Betweeners

that she became famous. ATAC was 17 when she got the part, which for many years would come to define her, for good and for bad. She found herself on the cover of magazines and ushered into the VIP areas of nightclubs, but also faced an overwhelming level of sexual harassment, experiences later accounted in her BBC.

documentary asking for it. In 2018, she was the runner-up in I'm a Celebrity and started focusing on comedy with an ITV sketch show and stand-up tall. It was a pivotal moment, both professionally and personally. In 2022, she started dating a childhood friend, the nuclear physicist Alist Alistairna. The couple are now engaged with a baby boy who is almost two. Motherhood, Aetak says, has made her feel, I'm now living for something other than myself. And ATAC is enjoying an on-screen resurgence too, back playing the fabulous Sarah Stratton on Disney Plus's hit drama, rivals, as well as co-hosting a new ITV game show, Nobody's Fool with Danny Dyer. Described as a strategic reality quiz, nobody's fool is designed to test the contestants' intelligence,

or rather who they think is the smartest out of all of them. Although she was meant to stay impartial, A-Tac says she found it hard not to root for the contestants. I got emotional at the very end, she said. I do find that hard. The boundaries. Emily Atta, welcome to how to fail. I'm not meant to be crying yet. Oh, God, wow. That's such a lovely introduction. Thank you.

It's a pleasure. Bang on every single detail. That's a real relief because I... That never happens. There's always something that people... People kind of, you know, get wrong. That's amazing. Thank you. No, thank you for being here.

And you've had such an extraordinary career and you're still so young because you started so young. And congratulations on everything that's been happening for you lately. I wanted to end on that quote about boundaries because it's something I struggle with too. Oh, God. Talk to me about boundaries, Emily. I mean, what a way to kick it off. Amazing. It's some boundaries as something that I've learned definitely later. in my 30, early 30s, I would say.

Boundaries are something that I didn't grow up with. And that was a kind of a beautiful thing and a terrible thing all at the same time. And I've learned maybe, I think maybe now that we are, that mental health is more of a discussion in life, you know, people are having therapy a lot more and being honest about that. And therapy for me has always been a massive thing. And boundaries is the first thing that I learned about in therapy. So part of who I am will always be that I forget the boundaries. But it's something I really, really, really try to every day practice having my own boundaries

and not worrying about upsetting people when you create those boundaries. I mean, I know we're going to unpack some of this more deeply in your failures. But I also think it's so interesting because your lack of boundaries is possibly what all also makes you so relatable and loved because you are phenomenally gorgeous, which can actually be quite intimidating and it can create this distance. But maybe it must be quite sort of difficult, it must have been difficult to travel that line. And especially when you're doing something like Nobody's Fool, which is such a brilliant premise. And where you have to maintain this sort of persona where you're not showing emotion. So how hard was that? They really did sort of

spot that early on that I didn't have favourites as such, but I was very, I was very bad at playing the host in that way of being completely kind of impartial. Being at the helm of a show like that with lovely Danny, part of the reason why they chose us is probably because we are personable and, you know, but yeah, I really did have to kind of learn that it's a game and there is lots of money involved and people take it very, very seriously. And it's fascinating because the first episode, although the premise is that they have to choose which one they think is the smartest, it struck me how much of it is also about class. Because the first episode, the first exercise, the sort of posh, white, older bloke who went to Eaton is automatically just assumed to be the

cleverest. And I'm interested in class and rivals is also all about class. Absolutely. So have you always been interested in class? Always. It fascinates me because I grew, I've always, I've always been in a very unusual position with class. A journalist wants to describe me as classless. And at first I sort of went, oh, what do you mean by that? But then what she meant was, what I mean by that is that you can't really kind of put you in any of them because you're relatable and personable to every kind of class. And I think I grew up in a very mixed way like that. Like I, even though my parents were who they were and we were privileged in a lot of ways and we had a big beautiful house and we went on nice holidays. But we didn't go to private school.

They were very much. My parents were very set on raising us as kind of normally as possible. I hung around with like lads in puffer jackets and that all smoked weed in their cars. You know, it was like, you know, like people just do nothing. The show, the amazing show. It was like that. Like I literally grew up. So I was kind of known to them, my friends like that, as the posh girl. So then as I kind of grew up and left school and started working, I actually realized I wasn't the posh girl at all. Having pals, no matter what background they came from, I just genuinely didn't care about what background they were from. So yeah, I grew up in a household where class didn't matter. Your background didn't matter. And I mentioned that your mother's an actress and your father's a musician. Now, just to give them their due, your mother is Kate Robbins who provided a lot of the voices for spitting image and wrote the song Surprise Surprise. She did. It's so amazing. And your dad was a guitarist for Bonnie Tyler. Yes, for 30 years. Incredible, Bonnie Tyler, formerly of this parish, she was formerly on How to Fail. Now, your parents are amazing. I want to hear about Paul McCartney.

Yeah, fair do's. Fair enough. Was he around for a Sunday barbecue? I'm sure he's the one that goes around bragging me. He's my cousin, I'm sure. But yeah, no, he was very much a part of my childhood. He's a lovely man and he's a family man. And he was, so the relation is he's first cousins with my grandma, Betty, who's not with us anymore. But he very much, and he writes about my grandma in all his books. And every opportunity he gets, he talks about my grandma because she was such, and my granddad,

because they were such key figures in his life when he lost his mum really young. So he was very, yeah, he was very much a part of my mum's childhood. on Mount Road, in that mad house. Oh my God, so many memories in that house. The door, back door was always open. You know, people would be coming and going all the time. And yes, my mum grew up in Beatles mania, and she said it was just the most insane thing.

She said one of her earliest memories was John Lennon was babysitting them. Paul and John would kind of come around and babysit them whilst my grandma and grad have worked in the pub. So, yeah, it was an interesting. childhood for my mum and really unusual and creative and insane. Were they good babysitters? Apparently so, yeah, yeah, they were. And Mom, Paul, he was like a sibling to them really. He was a bit older and I think because my grandma was quite a lot older than him.

He kind of really saw her as like an auntie figure really. Growing up for me, he was hugely apart of my childhood. I remember Linda really well. She used to take us out on her horses that they used to have beautiful. amazing acres of land that we'd all play on. And I remember once arriving at his house for Sunday lunch. And he said, oh, you've just missed Michael Jackson. And I was just like, I was kick it.

I was like, I was like, I was like, sorry, is it not enough that, you know, you relate to a beetle. I was like, no, I want to meet Michael Jackson. But yeah, so that was for, and then he had New Year's Eve parties all the time. And yeah, huge part of my childhood growing up. Incredible. Incredible. Let's get back to you. Yes. Because this is what this is about.

And your failures, there's so much in them that I want to get straight onto them. Thank you so much for the effort that you've clearly put into thinking about this. It means a lot to me. Your first failure, as you put it, I have failed to believe in my own capabilities. Yes. So I can't remember how this started really. But I just remember being very little and thinking that. I couldn't do things.

I don't know why. It was, I think, I think if I'm being really blunt and honest, so there was me, Martha and George, I was the pretty one. Martha was the clever one. George was the naughty one, right? Not completely, but if we're just in a nutshell, kind of seeing that,

I think that's, I think for young girls, particularly, this is where it starts, where if you are sort of, Martha was beautiful, don't get me wrong. Yes, these are the labels you were given. Yes, but it was like I couldn't have the brains because I was the tall, blonde one that grew boobs really young. And all the boys fancied me and I fancied the boys and I played kiss chase with all the boys when I was younger. And I was obsessed with boys.

I was boy mad. I feel like adults without meaning to in family members, they kind of, they create these roles for you. So they become comfortable to you. So I think I lent in to that. And I think that, okay, I knew I was the tall, pretty one that mom and dad were. proud to sort of physically show me off and whilst Martha was playing on her little, you know, she would be looking at bugs in the corner on her little, um, I say, I don't even know what they're called.

Microscope. Yeah, yeah, microscope. That'll do. I mean, that sounds, it sounds terrible. But I think for girls, that's, it's kind of where that begins a little bit. So, so I always kind of thought that that was all I was capable of, just standing there looking nice. and being charming and, you know, being flirtatious. And that was kind of my thing.

And so when I realized as I got older that I had so much more to offer, it took a long time for me to be brave enough to actually say I've got more to offer. But then at the same time, those things worked for me for a very long time. But over the years, I have found that when I have pushed myself and done things that people have really rolled their eyes out and gone, you won't be able to do that. I've always surprised people and I've always surprised myself

and gone, oh, actually I can do that. Even when it came to doing I'm a celebrity to get me out of it, you know, I was always sort of seen before that as the sort of pin up of the in-betweeners and the, you know, the schoolgirl, the girl next door posing in ladsmags and people didn't know who I was as a person.

So I really enjoyed taking off that mask on I'm a slob because you have to. There's nowhere to hide in there. And I think, yeah, people got to know me as a person and realized that I did have more interesting things to say. And I don't know what word to use without saying it, but I wasn't this tart that kind of had this, you know, this kind of optic that had been painted for me. I mean, I'm still a tart. I kind of love that word and I kind of want to own it. But like, I just had more to give as a person, I think, which is what surprised people.

It's terrible that it does surprise people. Your career trajectory is so interesting because it happened at a certain time, sort of pre-Me2. Yes. And during social media. Pre-social media and also during a time when we're kind of still there, but where we didn't allow women to be more than one thing. So that childhood label became crushing in its weight and you were very good at it. And I would love to go back to that moment when you were 16, when you left school and you moved to London, with Martha, your younger sister,

and decided you were going to make it as an actress. What was going on for you at that time? God, it's funny, my heart races when I think about being 16. I was a very troubled teenager. And I find that very difficult to talk about because I was such a loved child and we were encouraged to be creative and we were so privileged in so many ways.

But there were a lot of things that went on in my childhood that really scarred me and have traumatized me, really. I'm sorry. And people underestimate families splitting up as well. So when I was 16, my mum and dad split up. They're great friends now and it's all fine now. But at the time, it was really awful. And my brother was only 13 and Martha was 15. And my mum, God love her, she couldn't cope.

It was really, really difficult. And so my dad had moved out of the family home. And my mum decided she needed to get away for a while. And I, so yeah, Martha and I moved into a flat together. and my brother George went to live with my aunt and uncle. And it sounds so, it sounds awful. And I tread very carefully because my parents are amazing, beautiful, wonderful people who loved us so much. But this was a very difficult time.

And my mum, bless her, she just couldn't cope. And I, as a mother now and as an adult, I get it now. And I was very angry at the time. it was all very scary and very awful. Because I was such a troubled teen, my poor parents, they just didn't know what to do with me a lot of the time. And I was hanging around in the wrong crowds. I was sexually active with older boys and men.

And that was very difficult for my parents. And so I remember when my dad left, I remember at the time, And I've never actually told anybody this. But I was pregnant. And I was, I was very young. And I was in this awful, abusive, horrible relationship. And I fell pregnant.

And it was just in the middle of all this kind of stuff going on with my mum and dad. And I remember, I remember because all of that awful stuff was going on. And obviously, the pregnancy didn't, I've never spoken openly about how or what happened and I don't know if I'm ready to yet but obviously that pregnancy didn't continue I'm so sorry for everything you were going to and so you know my family was kind of falling apart and and that was happening and I just felt very determined so when we moved into this flat I remember little Martha looking at me I'm going, what are we going to do?

And I said, I'm going to become a famous actress. I just said it. I just made sure that I did. And as I say, my parents are amazing people and they, I don't, I don't berate them in any way for this. Everybody makes mistakes. And this was just a period of time where lots of mistakes were being made. and but now as a mother I understand and also those mistakes

I think actually they've led me to to be where I'm now because I think a lot of people think that I had it all handed to me on a plate because of who my parents were and because my mum was an actress but I did it by myself I really did

and in the middle of you know doing, of being in these abusive horrible relationships just trying to kind of I wanted to be with somebody, you know, I wanted to be looked after. And so I was going out with all these awful guys and doing all that. I was trying to make a life for me and Martha.

And yeah, and it sounds, as I'm saying it out loud, it does, I really don't want people to think my parents are terrible, terrible people. They really aren't. And I love them so much. We have the most amazing relationship. And I do think it made us all stronger as a family. And I do thank them for it because I, genuinely don't think that I would have had that strength and the fearlessness because I would I went into

my first ever audition like you said in the introduction which nobody really knows about this I went into my first ever audition just completely there was not a care in the world about what I looked like I didn't feel self-conscious I just needed to pay the rent so it was kind of like I have to get this job there's no there's no there's you know I can't fail at this and I got the part and I and it was from there I mean cocky as anything because from there the in-betweeners came very quickly

and I was earning money and I just started I started working and Martha passed my driving test a bit later on and started driving me to auditions and yeah so it was always me and me and Martha

against the world thank you so much for I mean what a strong strong person you are that is a phenomenal story I haven't told anybody those things well I feel honoured that you have told me that

Thank you. And I just want to reassure you it comes across loud and clear how much you love your parents. Yes, I do. You and Martha, it's one of the most special relationships I think I've ever had the privilege of researching on this podcast. That's nice. Your younger sister is now your manager. She's an extraordinary agent for other people, including me. She's head of unscripted TV at Curtis Brown, major agency.

She's made a phenomenal success of her life. I wonder, we very rarely get a chance on this pod to talk about sisters. Will you talk about how important your sister is? Oh, wow. I mean, it's an unbreakable bond between Martha and I. And it's something that I would not have survived without Martha at all. And she, I think when we were little and we were growing up, I did everything I could to protect her.

And again, just from the madness and the chaos of what was our lives. And bless Martha, she was the middle child. So she wanted organisation and structure and routine. I didn't give a shit about that. And nor did my naughty little brother. Like we like the fact that mum and dad would sometimes sleep in and we miss the alarm for school. That was great to us. But to Martha, it was that really, she hated all of that.

And so I really did my best to protect Martha from a lot of things. And I think now she's just, it's almost like she repays, she's repaying the favour, you know. And she now looks after me and my career and my life. And it's, it's just so funny looking at us from being children to then going into our teenagers, which is when she started to notice that I, I wasn't the most stable older sister in the world. I was very vulnerable. and I was very chaotic and I made some terrible decisions. Actually, you know, thankfully, she was able to watch, look at my behaviour and realise, God, I don't want to do that. When shit hits the fan, when bad things happen when we're grieving, when a family member passes away or something, that's when I switch back into older sister mode and I go, right, okay, I'm going to sort this out, it's going to be fine. But yes, day to day, I mean, she knows when my period is.

I have to ask her when I'm due on my period. I literally rung her the other day and I said, I was like, I'm going on my period. I'm like, she's like, no, you're not due on for another couple of days. I'm like, that's mental, insane. She does that for all her class. Yeah, Greg James. Yeah, exactly. He really needs to know when his period is.

I remember we, when we decided that it was time to separate and I had to go off and live. But she met a lovely person who she had a really long, wonderful relationship with. They were going to move in together and I was going to go off and, you know, go to the sunset and make the big time, you know, it was kind of that. And I remember the day I left the flat and it was, we, I find it so hard to talk about. We've never spoken about it because it was just too much. It was too, it was, I couldn't, we couldn't. couldn't say goodbye. And I just, I went right, see ya. And I just turned around and I kept walking

and I didn't look behind me. But it was a really important moment because it was, I knew she was safe and I knew I could leave her there. God, oh my gosh. I knew she'd be okay. And she knew I was okay. And it was just this unspoken thing. We didn't hug. We didn't say goodbye. I just got in a van with all my stuff and I just and I and I and I just left and we both knew it was going to be we were going to be okay so it was a big moment for us bless you there are tissues on the time thanks thank you we've been taught that love by our parents our wonderful mental creative insane parents who we just love so much I would I really wouldn't change any of that and it was also the time when you are on the in-betweeners. And do tell me if you're sick of talking about

this. No, no, it's fine. Because it was such a massive cultural shift for so many of us, that program. And for you, just in the context of what we're talking about here, about underestimating your capabilities, I wonder how ambivalent you ended up feeling about that role. Because on the one hand, it cataports you into this sort of stardom, and you are brilliant in it and funny and talented. And on the other, you also are treated by a misogynistic culture really horrendously, which probably feeds into all of that trauma that you had from an early age. So I wonder how do you feel now looking back at that period of your life and that role in particular? Well, I loved playing that role.

And I loved all the attention I was getting. And not the negative stuff, but I loved that it had catapulted me. And I was getting invited to all these cool parties and all these like really hot men wanted to go out with me. And I would get me and all my friends, we'd go to all these nightclubs. And, you know, we'd get, we'd get all the best tables. And they'd bring over the big massive bottles of vodka with fireworks in them, you know? Do you know what I mean? And yeah.

And they were really fun years. and I was able to kind of do that for my mates and that, you know, they sort of loved having a mate that was on the telly. I didn't really have any tele friends at that point. It was all very much people I went to school with who were still my best friends now. And there was the outer thing of being the pin-up and being on the front page of Loaded and FHM and doing all that stuff.

But that to me was just how I sold my work. And that was very normal. And I enjoyed those photoshoes. Fine. I didn't think anything of it. I'd stand there in my pants. I'd break for lunch. My mum always came with me on those shoots

and we'd sit around and I'd sit there in my knickers and have my lunch and then carry on. And then I'd go home back to my flat in Bedfordshire and have all my mates over and then we'd all watch it on the telly. But I was very safe in my real life. I've just managed to always keep that really separate. So it was always quite jarring

when I did see all these things out there when social media started to really become a thing and people were writing about me in all these kinds of ways and I started getting all these kind of crazy messages of old men and people saying things to me in the street. I really did well to cotton wool myself from that when I wasn't in it.

And I think that separation is kind of what saved me going mad really with it. So yeah, it was always, it was confusing because I just didn't see myself in that way. I remember like all the pictures of me in the Inbetweeners. It was just, it was me in a school uniform. But people go, oh yeah, the sexy schoolgirl uniform. I'm like, no, no, it's not, it's not fancy dress meant to be sexy. I'm just a school girl playing a school girl. I hadn't long left school when I started the Inbetweeners. So I was just wearing a school uniform. So I didn't, I genuinely, innocently didn't understand the

sexual crassness that was linked to it. I really didn't. It was about the four boys and to, you know, their teenagers trying to get off with girls. That was the premise of the show. And I know that, you know, it's peppered with the fit girl at school. It was kind of me and Emily Head was sort of, you know, the Emily Head who plays Carly. You know, we were kind of the, you know, the bit of totty poster girls for it, I guess.

But even that didn't, I didn't feel that there was any, anything sexually aggressive about that. just that was just a bit of fun it was a young cool sexy new show the new skins people were calling it you know so when it was when it became aggressive that's it was confusing i didn't and so and also when i was kind of blamed for that behavior that's what i didn't understand because i was kind of like hang a minute because people were saying well if you know if you don't want to be treated like that you shouldn't be wearing a really sexy school girl outfit on tv i'm like that what i'm playing a school I'm playing a role that means I have to wear a schoolgoal outfit.

If that's then plastered on websites and, you know, I remember there was like deep fake porn sites even then with like my head on, you know, naked bodies like being done up the ass. And it's like you go, no, no, but with like a school tie on. And I just, I genuinely, I didn't understand that. I found that very confusing because I was going, oh, is this my fault? then that I'm kind of getting all this negative attention. I just, it was really confusing. I bet.

Also, you were a teenager wearing a school uniform playing that role. So there's this whole other dark added element to it that must have taken years to unravel. In terms of your capabilities and how you're feeling about them now, I feel from an outside perspective that you are in an amazing, rich period of your professional and personal life. And you're just only going to keep going. And you're sort of on this really incredible trajectory to see you in rivals. Just brilliant acting. I mean, we were chatting before we started recording. You're so good on that show. Thank you so much. Really. Like so funny but also so moving. There's one particular scene that I'm going to talk about again in the second episode of the second

season of rivals. It's this phenomenal dinner party scene and you're pretending to cook it. Actually, it's tagging it here. And there's this moment where you move from laughter to tears to exasperation to then having to gather yourself and walk into the dining room with a pot of stew. And I really did just sit there and think that is amazing acting. Oh, thank you so much. I think it's because I'm not acting. I think it's because honestly, like my whole life has been building up to that moment. And I think the reason why Sarah Stratton means so much to me is because it's the first time in my life. Look, I've been given lovely opportunities and roles. And I'm so grateful to the in-betweeners and other jobs along the way that have really kind of put me up the ladder a little bit.

But I do feel with rivals there is a particular trust that they have with me that I've never had, that nobody has ever had with me before, which is they believe I can. do it. And they believe that I don't, I don't just have to be the girl that stands there in the corner not saying much. They've given me more to do. They've given me these beautiful scenes because they know I can do it. They believe in me. And that has taken me 20 years almost. I've jumped through so many hoops. I have to, and don't get me wrong, I know I'm talking from a white, middle, you know, white privilege position. But I have had snobbery. over the year. People have been very snooty towards me because of, you know, the fact I've got

blonde hair, boobs, posing, lads, mags, I wear fake tan, eyelashes. I've always got a dodgy fake tan situation going on. But Rivals is just allowing me to go in and do my job and do it well. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Fashion News and Features Director at Vogue and co-host of the Run Through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all-access pass, the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott, and Simone Bellati. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mell, head of editorial content at Vogue U.S., and Chomonati, British Vogue's head of editorial content, as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margo Robbie. Listen and watch the run-through with Vogue,

wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel. Fabio Semantilly. Big hearts, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche. He was like a wizard behind the chair. The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out.

There was rampant speculation about everything. But every wild theory was wrong. Because the truth was even more unbelievable. What? Is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing. is a form of agony.

From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, this is Cut, Color, Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, add-free. Let's move on to your second failure. I fail to emotionally regulate.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I've never had this failure before and it's so self-aware. It's something that people love about me and it's also something about me that gets, it's got me into trouble over the years. And I always sort of think back to childhood with things, and this is years of therapy, I think,

but I always sort of think, where's that come from? I've always, I've never had any problem with expressing how I feel. I make sure everybody knows how I'm feeling. And I think it's saved me over the years. I don't bottle anything up. I wear my heart here,

here, here, here, here, everywhere. And I hand my heart over on a little fluffy cushion and I go, just take it, take it. Like, if the bin man could say to me, oh, hello, M, you're right. I'll go, oh, I've got the worst period pains ever. I just, oh, maybe I've got endometriosis. Oh, God, I'm just, I'm really, I'm really, I've got all these pains and I just, honestly, I don't stop. I also am very reactive. And I think a lot of this comes, uh, from men.

as well, over the years I've really failed to emotionally regulate when it comes to my relationships, my sexual relationships, who I'm dating, what's going on in that situation. And it's the kind of men that I've dated. I've always dated very problematic, troubled men who I'm trying to fix. And it's like, oh, we're, let's be toxic together. Let's try and fix each other. And then if something goes wrong in that relationship, I've reacted really massively. Like I could literally be, and obviously not now, I'm in a different situation now, but back in my dating days, I could have been in a, I could be about to do like the biggest job of my life, signing a huge contract. And if I get a text saying, sorry, babe, got to cancel tonight, I would, I would drop everything. And I'd go, I've got to go home, I've got to go home. I just can't, I just can't. And I can't deal. I just cannot deal with that kind of rejection. I've, as I say, I've learned over the years to kind of

manage that. But you know, it really annoys me. It really annoys me that I feel like all I've ever done is work on myself. I am exhausted with how much I've had to work on myself. But people, not everybody does. And I think it's so important to work on yourself. Because I'm the first person to admit when I, and like you said, I'm self-aware, I'm so self-aware. And I'm the first to admit when I'm to this or to that. And I do everything I can to try and change it. But people don't, lots of people don't take responsibility for their face. Oh my God. I hear you so deeply. I mean, I guess that's why this podcast is so great, because it's sort of taking responsibility and going, this is what, you know, this is what I've

been bad at. This is what I failed at. Absolutely. I'm interested by something you said there about how you feel your ability to share emotionally has saved you at points. When's it saved you? I think people always know where they stand with me. So I never, I never hold a grudge ever. Wow. What's that like? Yeah, well, and people have wronged me over the years, trust me. And this is where, without sort of lowering the tone too much, but I have forgiven people for unforgivable things that they've done to me. And I believe that forgiveness is, it really, it's not just a cliche, it really is something you kind of have to find in yourself in order to, you know, move on from something that has maybe troubled you. And I do, I, I think, I feel like my ability to forgive has done that. It doesn't really matter about their reaction. I know that I've cleansed myself of that. Growing up, I felt so lonely.

I was lonely. And even though I was surrounded by people all the time and I was so loved, but I was so lonely. And I remember, and me and Martha and George, we bicker about this because their reality is very different. They don't remember feeling lonely. And they kind of go, why? and I'm like, I don't really know how to explain it.

I just felt, I felt lonely. And so over the years, to me, building those connections, getting deep with people. And like, even if I meet you in a toilet, you're my best friend, like, forever. And that, I think, even though that's got me to trouble with my love life, I think it's enabled me to keep friends and have good friendships. One of the reasons a child might feel lonely is if they're keeping a secret. or protecting someone from knowing the truth about something that has happened. Yeah.

Do you relate to that? Yes, completely. Because even, I think I was keeping so much from my parents when I was young. Again, it's going a little bit dark, but like I was, I was sexually assaulted first of all when I was 10. That was when I was first ever sexually assaulted. And that, I remember being 10 years old and from that moment I was treated. badly, appallingly by older men from that age, like throughout my life. And I think the loneliness came a lot from that.

And lots of things happen that my parents to this day still don't know the detail of, you know, of how men have treated me and touched me and said things, whispered things to me in my ear when, you know, people aren't in earshot. And I think a lot of the loneliness stemmed from that. And from that, I then developed a really unhealthy relationship with sex and with boys. because I kind of lent into that behaviour a little bit. And I also found that I felt I knew I was wanted and desired by men from a really young age, sexually desired. And that to me as a child, it's really confusing because I think I needed, I wanted to feel that.

I didn't want to do the sex stuff, but I liked that feeling of feeling wanted and validated and being called pretty. and, you know, I had crushes on older men who would then take advantage of that, but then made me feel that that was a good thing. Like, there were so many situations from sort of, like, I remember particularly 11, 12, 13, when I really started to kind of wear makeup and look a lot older. And I was hanging around with lots of older people. I was sneaking out all the time, you know, my parents, couldn't control me. I was just out the door. And I developed these sexual connections with

much older men. And that was, it was a space where, even though I hated the sexual part of it, it was a space that I felt quite powerful and not lonely. Yes. So even the irony was that I felt lonely because I because of the kind of the attention I was getting from like a really really young age that made me feel lonely and isolated because I didn't my parents whenever they did know about it

it was too difficult for them to kind of discuss so then I just kind of internalised that which made me quite lonely and then but then weirdly lent into that behaviour and found sexual connections with men to try and cancel out that loneliness which doesn't really

make sense it makes complete sense First of all, I'm so sorry and horrified that you went through that. And it's a testament to the woman that you are that you are sitting here today, successful, powerful, stable with a beautiful family of your own. I just want to pay tribute to that because that requires an astonishing amount of work and drive. And it makes sense to me because there's something around safety here, isn't there, or love. And if you are conditioned from such a young age to believe that the antidote to loneliness or a feeling of safety or a feeling of love

comes with this sexual element with Old Amendment, then it completely, it does make logical sense that you didn't stand a chance. You were being manipulated. And I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. It's unusual. It's very odd. And it has over the years kind of, I've had quite an unusual relationship with sex.

And it's kind of, yeah, it's been, it's been odd. But then to be a person who's highly kind of sexualized and all of that sort of simultaneously. Like it's really, it was really confusing, yeah. Can we talk about Alistair? Yes, please. I love Alistair. Did I get that right? He's a nuclear physicist.

Because some pieces describe him as a material scientist. And I did single science GCSE, so I've got no clue what either of those really means. Yeah, he's a nuclear physicist. He did his PhD on the corrosion performance of sikonium in nuclear reactors. Sorry, that was so cool. Yes, he's, yeah, I hope I said that right. He's so cool. And he is a very key kind of ingredient in all of this.

And he kind of ties my life up in a bow at the end. It's an interesting story with Alan and I, because we've known only. other for 30 years. I remember meeting him when I was very young, I think I was about five years old when I met him. That might sound strange to some people, but you know, we were just kids then and we would just play together and so we reconnected as adults, but kind of going, oh, we've got such a connection and it's like, it is a bit confusing and a bit odd, but we really fancy each other. And then, you know, and we were kind of going, yeah, but we're not allowed to fancy each other, because my auntie is married to your dad.

It's weird. And so there was obviously there was all that kind of back and forth, but we kind of couldn't help it in the end. Yeah. Also, it's not weird. We're not weird. No, it's like having a neighbour on the same street and they have a kid the same age and you play together.

And then that develops into something. Exactly. And we remember each other from our childhoods and all of that. And I remember his beautiful brother, Jim, who, yeah, who sadly passed away when he was 21. And so we are. And then Al lost his dad, Steve, just a couple of years ago. And I was there when Steve passed away.

And it was then in that moment when Steve passed that we decided that we were never going to leave each other's side. Because what are we doing wasting this time? We're going through all these relationships, all these boyfriends and girlfriends that we don't want to be with and we want to be together. And yeah, and we decided from literally from that moment. We call it the hug. There was a moment where just before Steve had passed away and I was sat with him and I walked out into the corridor of the house and Al just hugged me and we just didn't stop hugging for about 20 minutes.

We just held each other for 20 minutes, not saying anything. And it was first time I'd seen Al look so frightened and scared and alone. And I just, I hugged him. And then Steve died really shortly after. that. And so we're bonded by this kind of grief, but also this strength of kind of spirituality in a sense. I mean, he's a scientist, so he'd argue that slightly. But there's this really unusual and unbreakable bond, Alan I have. And people find it strange. And, you know, but I think when you know my stories is why I'm quite keen to sort of tell all those details of my upbringing

and all of that because I think it makes a bit more sense as to why I've decided that I need to be with Al and he needs to be with me and we need each other. And he helped me kind of, because I remember somebody saying to me when I was younger, nobody's coming to save you. So you need to get a grip

and you need to, you know, try and find out a way to save yourself. And I just remember thinking that was so crushing when I was younger. But then when Al and I got together, someone said, yeah, Al saved you. I said, no, he helped me save myself. But he's the best.

And he's really hot. He is. He's so hot. I can say that objectively. And now we've got Barney. Your baby. Yes. And he is just the most hilarious little thing.

And then it's funny, I look at him, look at Barney, and I'm just like, oh, he was always meant to be here. Barney was always meant to be here. Barney is like me. Barney's, it's almost like looking at me as a child and kind of just doing everything I can to correct the mistakes. Well, I'll make my own, I'm sure, as a mother.

But I just, I'm so lucky and that I've been blessed with Barney. Do you think that becoming a mother to Barney has helped you mother yourself? Yes, completely. And it's helped me understand self-care. It's helped me understand, yeah, how important it is to look after yourself. And because you have to be this pillar of strength and be this stoic rock to this tiny little person. And he just loves me unconditionally.

I've never seen anyone look at me the way Barney looks at me. And it's so special and magic. And the irony that I've had people objectifying me my whole life and looking at me in a certain way, whether it's, you know, the male gaze men looking at me in a certain way or it's people judging me or whatever. Barney just looks at me in this pure, non-egotistical, non-salacious, pure, beautiful way that I'll never see on anyone ever. and I never have seen on anyone ever and it's really amazing. Healing.

Yes, healing. This male gaze that is so accepting and loving without question. Yeah, exactly that. I know, and he points at my body and goes, what that, babies! And it's like, oh, I'll tell you when you're older.

Yeah. But yeah, he's just, oh, he's just a blessing. I just adore him and he just loves his milk and he loves baby bells. Straightforward. I wouldn't normally ask this, I don't think, but because of everything you've been through and because of how you've been portrayed

and how you've been seen, how do you feel about your body now? I love what it's been through and I love my caesarian scar. I wear it so proudly and I look at my body very differently in that sense. But if I'm honest, I still have a job to do

and I still feel I've got a million insecurities about my weight and I think that will always be there and I really wish I could say that having a baby has given me this whole new attitude towards my weight and you know having a baby has given me a different attitude in so many different ways with my body

but I still I still struggle with that And I think women, there's a certain love language we have as women that all we do is talk about weight. It's all we do. It's all we do. And no matter how intelligent you are, no matter how much you like to think you don't care, you do. Because we are conditioned to believe that it's such a huge part of our worth. And I have to admit, it's something that I will work on because I work on myself. But I find it really difficult. I hate being called fat and overweight. It hurts me. It hurts me. hurts my feelings. Being called fat, especially when you've been sexually objectified, it's sadly, I sort of go, well, I'm either one or the other. I'm either somebody that men say they want

to spunk on or it's, it's, no, I'm too, she's, she's too fat. Oh no, she's, she needs to lose weight. Look at her, who ate all the pies? And it's like, when I just had a baby, it was ruthless. It was awful. So, yes, I, I hate being called fat. I hate it and I wish I could say I don't care, but I hate it. It hurts my feelings. Do you know what, Emily, I'm so glad that you said that. Thanks. Because I think that people need to remember that when they are saying those things, without really thinking them through and believing that you can take it

because you're famous, gorgeous Emily Aitak, actually it's so important to have a reminder, this hurts me. It hurts. And I'm not making it into a feminist issue and I'm not, politicising it, it just hurts me, Emily, because of everything that you have been through. I think it's so important that you said that. Thank you. And I think we're so, we're now having to do the thing, aren't we, of being strong about weight and kind of going, you know, oh, fuck, fuck the Patriarch.

We should, you know, we should just own our curvy bodies and we should, you know, any, any body's a bikini body. And I love it. It's so incredible. And I feel so sorry for us as women actually. feeling like we're so traumatized by this subject that we feel that we have to get together on mass and we have to build this community of telling everyone to piss off when it's about weight and that I'm going to own my curves and I'm, I don't care, you know, I don't need to be skinny. But actually it's, I just really feel for us and I'm supportive of all that. Don't get

me wrong. But I am just being really honest and saying, yeah, that that's great. But I will still go on holiday next week and I will be packed in a bikini and I will be called fat. I will and I will hate it and I will put a picture up on Instagram in a bikini and go and I'll find the right angle where I look at how I want to look and I'll be happy with that and I'll watch the likes rolling and I'll watch the lovely comments coming going oh you look great but there will be a cesspit and a pool of awful comments when paparazzi pictures come out or you know, because they deliberately get the worst angles they can. And it will all be about how fat I am.

And that is really going to sting and it always has done. And I hate it. And it feels I get embarrassed. Being called fat makes me feel really unattractive. And it makes me feel unsexy and I feel, yeah, I feel embarrassed. And I don't want my body all over the internet. but with people saying, with people saying that. So maybe, maybe there's a world in which where I am on those covers of magazines,

where everything is photoshopped and everything is, everything is, you know, edited, and it's a version of yourself that you are happy with. Maybe that's just a more comfortable place for me to be. Yeah. I also want to make it clear because I don't want there to be any room for misunderstanding here. I know that what you're saying is not that you think fat in and of itself. is bad. You're saying as it pertains to you when people troll you by using that word, it has a particular cadence for you. Yes, completely. This is exactly it. I'm not speaking

on behalf of any other woman other than myself and my own body in this particular instance because there are complexities about being called fat for me that just really trigger me. Does it help? Because my husband has spoken about this on this podcast, actually, about his body dysmorphia. And he says it doesn't help him when I say, you look great. You look amazing. He's like, that doesn't help. It does help me. It's interesting. It's really interesting and I was really proud of him for opening up about it. Does it help when people say you look great? No. I mean, in a way, I think what that does it makes it a superficial issue and actually it's deeper. Yeah, I sometimes want to say when people are like, but you, but you're lovely way you're on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for me personally, I want to be smaller or I want to be. And even I could be doing the best work of my life, but I'm still looking at how many chins I've got on the, on the monitor, you know, it's like, but that's because I don't want people, I just don't want people to say it to me. It just hurts my feeling. You know, there are, there are certain insults that people just can't take and are just really awful. And that is just. just one of them for me. Yeah. And I want to be a good role model and a positive role model, but I'm just being honest. Yeah, you are such an amazing role model because of that honesty, because of the effort that it costs you. And do you know what, 99% of women listening to this will relate. And it's probably one of those things that comes with time and comes with age. Bring it on. Yeah, yeah. Like that piece with our physical selves. Yeah. Let's move on to your final failure, which is, I fail to have and keep nice things. Oh, yeah. Okay, so what kind of things?

So I feel like when we were growing up, Martha was, Martha, whenever we'd like go somewhere, like on a holiday, on a trip, Martha always had like a perfect little suitcase with her little toiletry compartments. She's got one of those really grown-up toiletry bags with compartments in it. And I remember looking at that, like, we're using all her stuff putting it all on and just like I'm that person like if I'm on holiday

I lose everything I lose everybody else's things I turn up hungover with a bag of just like all just the bits that I need and that's kind of it obviously I'll just shove a load of shit in the bag and then that's me done I believe that I

don't deserve nice fit I don't deserve expensive nice things. I don't know why. And Al says it's something he's really noticed about me. Like I I love buying things for other people. I love giving people presents. It sounds like I'm trying to be all like Mother Teresa. But like I love spoiling people. I don't feel like I deserve nice things. And I can't. And also don't, don't get me nice because I can't keep them nice. And I can't, I'll, I lose everything. It's the Bermuda triangle of my life. If you come, if I borrow something off you,

you're never seeing it again. And I can't. can't help it. You know, and people over the years, they've had a go at me and said it's, yeah, but it's disrespectful of other people's things. And I'm like, yeah, and I know that now and I should, I should be better. But I just, I think I'm just, I don't have a materialistic bone in my body. Yes. So I don't care.

I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. What's the nicest thing you've ever bought yourself? Well, probably my house. Yes. And my mom's house. I bought my mom's house for her, which is the most, the biggest privilege in the, world that I can do that. But again, it's all very much for other people. I still don't really know how to buy myself anything nice. I've got a few nice handbags now. Okay. But that's kind of it.

I don't, but also my handbag, I've got a nice handbag next to me down here, but wait till I show you what's inside it. I can't wait to see what's. It's got like an old baby bell in it weeks ago and like it's, I think it actually does have a pair of knickers in it. Oh, my God. Emily A's, I never want you to change. I only want you to change and I can make your life better in if you ever need it to. But I just, I never want you to lose this. It's so special and so unique and so authentic and so lovable. Thank you.

I mean, my mum drew the line at a bottle of, you know, those little mini bottles of wine. I was kind of saying, no, I'm off the booze at the minute. I'm off the ale. I'm doing a couple of weeks, you know, being good. And then I put my bag on the floor and she said, what the hell is it? And it was an empty one of those little bottles, little bot for the jern. And I, you know. A little bot for the jern.

That's one of Greg's favorite phrases that I came up with years ago, Greg James's. But yeah, yes. So I am that. I'm that person. I'm scatty and I'm very disorganized. But I like to treat people. I don't know how to treat myself. I'm that person that you go on holiday.

You go on holiday with me. And within minutes, the towels are covered in fake tan. There's stuff everywhere. It's like my aim just to see on how much I can shit up a hotel room really quickly. But I don't mean to. And everyone's like, Emily! Oh, you sound so fun to go on holiday with though. Listen, what an absolute delight and a privilege has been for me to talk to you.

Oh, no. Thank you. Me too. Thank you. And as I say, yeah, I am an open book and I do wear my out of my sleeve. And I hope nothing I've said gets me into trouble. but I think it's important to talk and it's important to share

and I'll always be an oversharer. That's just who I am. Never change. I appreciate you so much for it. Thank you so much, Emily, for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land

on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.