How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Gugu Mbatha-Raw - ‘Have I ever worked with an awful co-star? Maybe one or two’

Episode Date: March 5, 2025

Friendship advice: ‘Are you a radiator or a drain?’ To hear more from Gugu tackling your failures join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Gugu Mbatha-Raw is an actor who firmly resists typecasting: her West End debut was as Ophelia in Hamlet; while on-screen she has tackled everything from Belle, to a victim of sexual assault in the hit drama The Morning Show. Her co-stars have included Jennifer Aniston, Matthew McConaughey, Kiefer Sutherland and Will Smith. Now, Mbatha-Raw returns to Apple TV+ with the second season of psychological thriller Surface. Although consistently a high-achiever, Gugu’s failures have shaped her in important ways - including one failure she shares in common with a former HTF guest, namely Mr Jamie Dornan… Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt

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modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that believes that most failures can teach us something

meaningful. Before we get onto the main episode today, I just wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast Failing With Friends, where my special guest and I answer listener questions and offer our advice on your failures. This week, I am joined by the one and only Gugu Mbata-Raw. Ultimately, do you still feel energized by it? Or is it actually, you know, consistently getting you down? Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes where you can send me an email or look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram for quickfire questions.

Gugu Umbata-Raw is an actress who firmly resists typecasting. Growing up in Oxford, the daughter of a South African doctor and an English nurse, she started ballet at the age of four. But it wasn't until starring as Dorothy in a local drama production of The Wizard of Oz that she decided she wanted to be a performer. After graduating from RADA in 2004, she has taken on a fascinating range of roles. Her West End debut was as Ophelia in Hamlet, while on screen she's tackled everything from Belle, the biracial daughter of an

admiral raised in 18th century England in Amma Asante's movie of the same name, to Hannah, a victim of sexual assault in the hit Apple TV Plus drama The Morning Show. Now Gugu returns to Apple TV Plus with the second season of psychological thriller Surface, in which she reprises her role as Sophie Ellis, a woman piecing together her life after losing her memory in a traumatic incident. She's also, for the first time, an executive producer on the project. Alongside acting, she's a global goodwill ambassador for the UN, influenced perhaps by her father's years as an ANC activist opposing apartheid in South Africa. Early on in her career, she came under pressure to change her name, but refused, as she puts it,

because you don't give away your identity that easily. I'm the first Gugu I know of in this industry, and it's a gift to be able to celebrate that originality. Gugu Mbatha-Raw, welcome to How to Fail. Gugu Mbatha-Raw Oh, thank you. It's so wonderful hearing all of that. Elina Miller Oh, and it's so wonderful to have you in the studio. I don't normally say this, but looking of vision in Crocus Yellow. Gugu Mbatha-Raw Come on, spring. Elina Miller Yes, you are willing it, you are manifesting it into existence.

I wanted to end on that quote because I wanted to ask you about the meaning of your name because I know it's got a very specific meaning. Yes, Gugu is short for Guguletu, which means our pride in Zulu. And what better reason than that for sticking to your name? Right. Exactly. Exactly. You got to be proud of it. And it's funny, just looking at this mug, which says fail better on the back that you have here, it just reminds me of my dad always said to me, great men try and fail, but they never fail to try. That was one of, and it just, when you were talking about my dad just then, it reminded me of that, that quote. So anyway, I- How beautiful. Yeah.

What else did he teach you? Well, that was when I failed my driver's test, a driver's license test. You just reminded me of him. I mean, he taught me so much, I think resilience and I guess in a global awareness, you know, growing up in Oxfordshire, I think him coming from South Africa and what

he went through just gave me an awareness of the world outside of my town and outside of my experience quite early. Did he talk much about his time in the ANC and as an activist against apartheid? Not really when I was a child. I didn't really understand it. I think he would talk about discrimination, but I think it wasn't really actually until I worked as a goodwill ambassador with UNHCR and refugees that he started to talk more about his experiences, I think, because UNHCR had helped him. And I didn't even know that that was something he held very, very close to him. So yeah, I think it was, as my cousins would say, a kind of ancestral

call bringing me into that world for refugees as he considered himself a political refugee himself. And how had they helped him? Well, it was to do with him getting a visa, I guess, or a sort of passport when he was finishing his medical training in Zambia, I think, long before I was born, but when he fled South Africa as a medical student. So he had to get all of his papers in order and to finish to become a doctor. Sorry, I got off track.

Because we are partly here to talk about surface, which I just told you my husband and I have binged. And it's very rare that our TV interests coalesce. So thank you for that gift. And you play this fascinating character of Sophie Ellis, who without giving too much away, if you haven't seen the first season, but you lose your long-term memory. What I find fascinating about the characters that you gravitate towards and that you choose, including Sophie, is that they are often women trapped in social constructs whose life is affected by unspoken power dynamics and often those power dynamics are to do with gender. And I wonder if you've intentionally thought about that or it's a coincidence or

whether that is something that really you gravitate towards. Yeah, I mean, that's a great analysis. I think it's chicken and egg really. Sometimes I think, you know, I look at some of the projects I've done and a lot of them do explore identity. And certainly Sophie is grappling with her identity, not least this other persona of Tess that she believes people know her by. But I think those are the really interesting areas to explore, I think, since I did Belle,

which was very much sort of the collision of identity, race, class, and gender, and we talked with Amara Sante about those themes, I think that they are really interesting subjects to explore in drama. And I think if you're a lead as a woman on screen, those themes can't help but intersect with the story somehow. So yeah, I don't know if it's conscious or not, but I seem to magnetise those kind of stories. And how do you feel playing those roles has impacted your own sense of self? And how do you think maybe that's also been helped

by getting older? I think you grow in confidence. And I think certainly on surface, I'm now an executive producer on the show, which has been an amazing thing that has come with experience and also getting the chance to work with Hello Sunshine, Reese Witherspoon's

production company and that that being the ethos of their company. I would say it's one of the most diverse crews that I've worked in. And so looking at that, you do feel a sense of getting older or just a sense of the industry changing beneath your feet, but also kind of a pride that you have also been part of that evolution. Yes. It feels like your choices are very intentional, not just in the roles that you take on, but the people that you work with. I'm very struck by how many female directors you've worked with, for instance. Are you always thinking about that?

I think initially it was female directors that just gave me the best roles. Without sounding like it. Ripple me that. I know. I know. When I think about Belle with Amor Asante, when I think about Beyond the Lights with Gina Prince-Bythewood, working on Fast Color with Julia Hart, working with Ava Duvenay, I feel like those stories, it was sort of a meeting of not just the story itself, but the point of view.

I think for me, you can have a great female role, but it can still be with the male gaze. What was really interesting with those directors that I was working with, certainly in my first Leeds in film, is that it very much felt like it was the female gaze, and the perspective of the story was coming through this woman's, the way this woman was seeing the world and how the world was seeing her. Let's get onto your failures.

Your first failure is your failure to be a ballet dancer. That's right. So when did you start learning how to dance? I mean, I was probably always leaping around the living room. There's pictures of me as a child in a tutu, but I feel like I probably first had ballet lessons when I was four. And I was an only child. My mom took me to ballet initially, I think, because she went to ballet as a little girl

and she was a nurse, and I think she probably would have loved to have done something more creative. But also, I just had so much energy. Being an only child, it was a way to burn off my energy after school, and then I wanted to go to tap, and then I wanted to go to jazz, and then I wanted to join the musical theater club. But I loved ballet so much, I think, because of the discipline.

I think that there was so much structure to it. You started with the bar work and your plies, and by the end of the class, you were leaping across the room in a sweat. And I took it really seriously. A certain stage around between 11, when I remember age 11, coming to London and being fitted for my first pair of point shoes in Covent Garden. You know, that was, it was so magical. But I took about five ballet classes a week, you know, between 11 and 15. You do all your grades, grades one to sort of seven or eight, then you do pre-elementary and then you do elementary and that elementary, even though it sounds like such a beginners, it's actually sort of the semi-professional. If you pass your

elementary, you can get into the Royal Ballet and you can go to ballet school and all the other grades you'd get sort of a whole pass merit distinction. But the elementary was just pass or fail. And I'd always got distinction from all my other ballet grades. And I did my elementary and I failed. And I was 15 and I was such a high achiever at school. I was a student just doing school in my spare time and dance and drama after school. It was the first time that I'd really failed at anything and I guess, aware that that's a real privileged position to be in. But for me, it was a huge moment of reassessing, oh right, it's not just going to be one smooth trajectory to the Royal Ballet, you know, actually that

was tough and oh wow, like I'm not going to be a ballet dancer. I have to actually think about what I love about dancing and can I do something else that's close to it? And then I was like, oh, well, I like being on stage still and I like musicals and there's dancing and musicals, you just have to sing and do a bit of acting as well. So well, you know, and it sort of opened me up to that and then I became a huge musical theatre nerd and thought I wanted to do that for another three years. And then, but then that brought me to acting. And I think at the time then I was doing my A levels and was doing art and English literature and just got introduced to Shakespeare.

And so it sort of led me to an awareness of plays and literature and acting and sort of finding my voice as opposed to just expressing myself physically. So in a way, I'm really thankful to that first failure because if I was a ballet dancer, I'd be retired by now. Long retired. Wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. So interesting for a number of reasons. I'm a big believer that any rejection is redirection. And I think you've expressed that so beautifully with that anecdote. That first experience that so beautifully with that anecdote, that first experience of something not going according to plan when you've put in so much work is heartbreaking. Yes. And do you still, can you still access that feeling that you had?

Oh, yeah. And I think stories that we're sort of told this sort of, you know, this narrative of beginning, middle, end, and it's all going to go in a certain trajectory. But yeah, I absolutely kind of think I'm still quite a physical performer. I think things have got more and more distilled, and I think, you know, from theater to being on screen, stillness is valued more in a way, but you can still have all of that stuff fizzling underneath.

But still now, I'll do things and I'll sit in a certain way, or I'll, you know, even doing a fight scene or something, and a stunt coordinator will be like, did you used to do dancing? Because, you know, you just pointed your toe and we really want you to actually kick some ass, not like point your toe. You know, the muscle memory is deep, you know, how you sit in a chair and move, how you carry yourself. I think it really is still within me somewhere. Days are new. When I was doing research for this interview, I watched a video of you being interviewed on Facebook and I don't always look at comments, particularly not on social media,

but for some reason I did on this one. And the first comment was from someone who went to school with you and said the loveliest things about you and said you were always so lovely and kind at school and it's so wonderful to see you succeed. How do you were so, you're always so lovely and kind at school and it's so wonderful to see you succeed. What were you like, how do you recall school? I mean, this is probably not popular, but I loved school. Did you? School loved you.

Nobody ever says that stuff, but I loved school. I think I was an only child, and I was sort of vivacious and enthusiastic. And at school, I got to be around my friends. And I got to be around people. And I think I just found it fascinating and fun. And I think I was quite a hard worker. And I wasn't popular at school. And I wasn't sort of nerdy or bullied or excluded. I was one of those really in between people. I wasn't, and I wasn't sort of nerdy or bullied or excluded. I was one of those really in between people. I ended up being head girl at my school and I went to my local comprehensive, you know, so that, that meant, you know, you were sort of voted for by your,

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Oh wow. Imagine how it looks. Is everyone? Yeah, big time. Nova Kane, formingres March 14th. We've spoken about your father and I'm just aware that I'd really like to speak about your mother just to give her equal billing. And I get a strong sense of her already from someone who took you to ballet classes and

that was important. What, what's she like? Oh, my mom. She is wonderful. She's one of the best friends in life that I have and she is hardworking. She was a nurse when I was growing up, working really hard and creative and artistic. I think she would have probably loved to have had more of a creative life than she did in some ways that wasn't really accessible to her. And she's always

supported me, but she's never pushed me. I think, you know, I've always, she would often worry that I was taking on too much. So she's always really given me confidence. And your parents split up when you were very, very young. So would it be fair to describe her as a single mother or was your father? Yes, no, 100%. I grew up pretty much with my mom and I saw my dad regularly, but I don't really remember them together. I think there is that quite intense only child, single mom, mother, daughter vibe, which is that you certainly, as you get a bit older, you sort of become a team.

And I realize now as I get older that it's quite intense. Like I think it's maybe more intense than some other dynamics that you might have if you've got siblings or if there's a dad in the house on a daily basis. What an amazing woman. And I just, I can't even imagine how proud your parents must be. I mean, to see you thrive in the way that you are. Oh, yeah, no, they are really still supportive. And I think they keep me grounded as well. You know, there's certain things you go home and, you know, certain things that don't change

and they treat me exactly the same. So before we get on to your second failure, you are redirected into acting and you end up at RADA. Yes, yes. What was RADA like? I was 17 when I auditioned and I got in when I was 18 and I'd never left home before. So a lot of people that were there were maybe 21 had been to university and I came straight from my A levels.

In fact, I came straight from Japan because I was doing National Youth Music Theatre in Japan. When I got the call from my mom on the landline from the hostel that we were staying at in Japan with the youth theatre company to say that I'd got in. And I only had sort of two weeks after I got back from this Japan tour to sort of move to London and I had nowhere to live. I ended up living in a hostel that was run by nuns in Marilabone. It was so sort of, I realize now probably I was young to

go there, but I was quite determined. And I just sort of figured it out. And I think so many people at RADA had much more life experience than I did. For RADA, it was like a 12-hour day, like nearly every day. I think for me, coming straight from school, that wasn't as hard to get into because I'd already been doing so many extracurricular things. So yeah, I loved RADA. It was very much a theater training. There wasn't certainly when I was there, there was a sort of TV term course in the second year,

but it was very much like you were just recording a scene with a friend. Considering how much film and television I've actually done in my career, the technique of all of that I learned on the job. I mean, I remember the first or third round audition. I remember the sort of deputy head of RADA at the time, he's not there anymore, said, don't smile so much. You shouldn't smile so much. And I remember that really was sort of,

and I hadn't even got in yet, but that was a really weird thing to say. And I thought, oh, I didn't know I was smiling. And is that wrong? And what does that mean? But I, and perhaps a rather blunt thing to say to an 18 year old, but I think I was just so enthusiastic. And I think perhaps what he was really trying to get at was that kind of put, keeping the

lid on the bubbling pot thing of, you know, and again, very English kind of restraint, withholding something or having that secret underneath is more mysterious, perhaps, and more interesting as a performer than just being so thrilled to be there and giving everything away. That's fascinating, but I'm still hung up on the hostel run by nuns. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. What do you want to know? How are we there for? What was it like? Well, you know, I got there, I got to RADA and as I said, I had two weeks before it started, term started, I had nowhere to live in London and they don't have, unlike university, there's no halls of residence. You're just in London figuring out.

And it's super expensive. Super expensive. And there was the bursar, Pat Myers, who is a legend. You know, she, I got a scholarship to go there as well. And, you know, so we were going through, okay, I've got a scholarship, but now I need somewhere to live. And she was going through the list of sort of dig, the digs list or whatever. And then she's like, well, wait a minute, I, you're Catholic, aren't you? And I was like, well, I, yes, I mean, kind of. I went to, you know, Catholic primary school and she's like, well, if you're Catholic, there is, there is a hostel in Marylebone and there is another girl in your year called

Amy, who also needs somewhere to live just for the first term or the first few weeks. You could be roommates there. called Amy, who also needs somewhere to live just for the first term or the first few weeks, you could be roommates there. And if you become friendly, you can then get a house together or whatever. So yeah, it was in Marillabone in quite a bougie area, I now realize, but it was run by nuns. I mean, the problem was there was a curfew and it was so early. It was something like you had to be back at like 11. And I was 18, just moved to London. I mean, every weekend I was kipping on somebody's sofa because I didn't get home in time. My friend Amy one time had to break me in to

the hostel. Getting back too late. I mean, it was kind of, kind of, it sounds so, I guess, naive and sort of idyllic now. We would walk along New Calvander Street from Marilabone to Rada every day. It was always a temporary measure. And I think it was just until I sort of found my feet in London as a teenager. And I mean, I'm still really good friends with Amy to this day. We shared a room and everything. And by Christmas, I'd figured it out. And I joined a flat share in North London with some third years. And by Christmas, I'd figured it out and I joined a flat share in North London with some third years and then I was away. I was living in a different apartment every six months, pretty much. But it was an amazing start,

I think, to being in central London because as I say, I could walk everywhere. And apart from not being able to come home like crazy late at night, it was sort of an enchanted time. Yeah. Failure to be a nun is not one of your failures. However, the next failure is your failure to be a painter. Yes. Yes.

Tell me why you picked this one. It's because alongside the love of acting and dancing, I really was obsessed with art growing up. I think I was at school and did my GCSEs along the time of the young British artists, Tracy Emin and Damien Hirst and Jenny Saville, who really caught my eye, who has just painted these figures that were so fleshy and like Lucy and Freud, kind of meaty human flesh and bodies. And I just found that such a compelling way

to express yourself through painting. I just thought it was real and it wasn't trying to be beautiful. And I, again, I tried to get into goldsmiths actually, to do drama because of them, because of the Young British Artists and because of that whole scene and I thought, and they rejected me. But I also just, I loved painting because it sort of, and I didn't really realize it at the time, but it gave me a headspace to go into where I would really lose track of time. I guess I now know that as the flow state or essentially a very focused,

but challenging, but flowy state of mind. But I knew I could be very solitary when I was But I knew I could be very solitary when I was painting and drawing, and I didn't need anybody. Somehow acting felt like it would bring me out of myself a bit more. Even though I knew I was talented at art, I let it go and I pursued acting. It wasn't really until the pandemic where I kind of, I couldn't act anymore. I was in the middle of filming Loki, first season of Loki in Atlanta. And we were on hiatus for five months in the end. And I was digging out an old cupboard and

I found a set of paints and a, you know, that had been neglected. And I, and I found a set of paints that had been neglected and I just started painting. And it felt like it was my creative expression in that time of having all of this creative energy that couldn't go anywhere with the acting. And so I sort of sprung a leak back into painting. And it had been years since I'd done it. And I really had this very focused several months of doing portraits of my friends and doing portraits of figures in culture and in the news and things that were really just inspiring me at that time. And it just reminded me of that focus that I had and just what a sort of therapeutic experience it was to paint. You mentioned there that you started off painting pictures from, I think it was your phone library, for family and friends. And then your attention was drawn to the news, and specifically Black

Lives Matter, and the horrendous and tragic murder of George Floyd and you painted a portrait of him and then of other people, Breonna Taylor. And what was it about them that made it important for you to paint their faces? Well, I was painting every day at that point, you know, and I was in the rhythm of sitting down and painting and as you said, you know, from my camera roll of friends that I wanted to see but couldn't see because we were, you know, also isolated at the time. And then I think in that time, it was such a crazy time, but such a focused time as well. And I felt like seeing that murder that happened and, you know, all the imagery around it,

the most natural way for me to process it was to paint it. It just felt like that was a way also of slowing down everything that was seemingly happening in the world and just this veil that had been pulled across or away from the idea of America and the idea of the world we're living in and actually just the cracks beneath all of that were being revealed. And so for me, it was sort of a way to process that and also just slow time down and sort of metabolize those ideas whilst we couldn't leave our homes. We couldn't really walk along the street and people would cross the street to avoid you if you were just taking your daily walk.

I mean, it was such a bizarre time. Um, but it was also an opportunity, I think, for me to sort of raise awareness for that, for that issue. You know, I auctioned some of the paintings for those charities and it just felt like a way to be active, creatively active in a time when we were so separate from each other. I think you put that so beautifully and I wonder if part of it also is when someone finds themselves at the centre of a news story and then a global movement, you can sometimes forget their individuality almost. They become a political moment rather than a human person. And I think that your

portraits, from what I've seen of them online, really did such a profound job of giving them back their individuality. Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think there is something about portraiture. It's kind of weird and unnatural, the intensity of which you will look at somebody when you're going to paint them. You would never look at somebody that intensely

or for that long in real life. Yes. Staring at an image, staring at somebody's face for sort of four hours. You would never do that. It's too weird. It's too weird. It's too intense. But to be able to do that, it's intimate.

It's like a connection with that person. You see the details, the grooves in their eyes and their forehead and how the light catches in their irises and all of those kinds of details. In a way, like acting, you are still kind of painting a portrait of somebody. You're not using a brush. It's not going onto paper or a canvas. You are using yourself. It's a portrait of a character that you're creating. So I sort of see the link of that, the psychology of somebody and what makes them tick and how their face can tell a story. I think they're sort of connected in a way.

Have you ever painted a self-portrait? Not for ages. I used to do that a lot when I was doing my art A-level. I had a massive self-portrait that I did of myself kind of in a box, like trying to push out of this box. I think, and it was such a big portrait and I was like naked in this or nude in this box. And yeah, it was so big I didn't even take it home because it wouldn't have fitted in our house. So I think it still belongs, it's still at the school or I don't know if they recycled it or I just left it in the art block in the end.

Isn't it interesting that I started your introduction saying that you defy categorization as an actor. And there's this clearly this recurring theme, this part of you which is like, don't box me in. Yes. Oh my God, I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't thought of that. And I was doing that when I was 17. Wow. Did you feel boxed in? I mean, I know I'm taking this super literally. It was like your A level. No, no, but I think it did come from some, you know, we were studying the expressionists at the time and I think, you know, it was coming from an expression of emotion and I think I probably felt like I was ready to leave my hometown. You know, I mean, I was ready to leave my hometown when I was 12. I did ask my mom if I could go

to drama school when I was 12. Have you ever felt boxed in in your professional life in this industry, which I imagine it takes quite a long time to change? I mean, we spoke at the beginning about how you feel the change is now coming and it's positive, but I imagine there must have been times along the way where you did feel you were being offered certain parts or did you feel boxed in in that way? I mean, never boxed in, but I think probably frustrated at the pace of change at times. I think that when I did Belle, I was sort of, it was such a life-changing role for me and

such a life-changing lead role moment. And I did Beyond the Lights after that, which actually didn't come out in the UK, but it was out in the US. And then I was sort of like, okay, where's my next lead role? And it didn't materialize just like that. You know, I think the next couple of things I did, I sort of played the wife of two big movie stars, you know, like Matthew McConaughey and Free State of Jones and Will Smith in Concussion. And as much as those were great jobs, and I learned a lot from working with actors and movie stars of their caliber, the roles themselves weren't as meaty as I had hoped.

After Belle and Beyond the Lights, I had hoped that, well, then they'll be more of the same. Similarly to passing that ballet exam, you just expect that that's the next step. That felt like not a sideways step because those were big movies in their own way, but I think certainly I made a promise after

those films that I wasn't going to play any more wife roles in that way. Both movies had interesting conversations around them, and reconstruction in the time of slavery, and basically brain damage in the NFL. And so there was stuff to talk around the projects, but I think I was very much looking for the next meaty role. Yeah. And that didn't come as easily.

No, and it's a brave decision to make in many ways because it opens you up to not getting those roles. You have to have a certain level of self-possession to be able to do that and to navigate the course of your career. And so that's very impressive. Oh, thanks. Well, I think I just also have this awareness that, you know, we don't have endless amounts of time. And

I think when you commit to a film or a TV project, sometimes you're getting up at 4.30 in the morning or earlier, you know, you're living away from home and you're committing hours and hours of your life to tell a story. And so I, you want that to be, to be worth it at the end of the day. You've worked, as you mentioned there, with some amazing co-stars, Will Smith, Matthew McConaughey, but also Jennifer Aniston, Kiefer Sutherland. You don't have to name names. Have you ever worked with a terrible co-star? Like who, who like, no, I just can't carry on doing this job.

Um, yeah, I can't, I can't name names. No, no, no. Yeah, I can't name names. I've worked with maybe one or two people who I've seen behavior, just behavior where, and you can see how it happens where people get surrounded by other people that nobody ever says no to them, that they are given a sense of sort of grandiosity and then they'll be tired or ready for lunch and suddenly somebody will snap and it'll be in front of a child actor or something. You're thinking, how can that level of awareness, how can you not realize that that child is absorbing everything you're doing and idolizes you and you have just had a tantrum in front of them. There's only been a few moments like that,

but I'm always very aware, certainly as an actor and as a leading actor, now that I am a leading actor on a TV show, everybody's looking to you to set the tone. And I think, and it's in a subconscious way, you know, you set the pace, you set the energy, you set what's acceptable on set, you know, you set all of that and if you allow, you know, a certain kind of energy or a certain kind of behavior, it sort of, it trickles down from the top in that way and I've seen it happen. Very interesting because as someone who's never been on a set, it's so interesting to understand that the magnitude of that, of that lack of self-awareness and I know exactly what you're describing because I've sort of been in that, not me personally obviously,

but I've been adjacent to that sort of bubble of entitlement and it's a very specific flavour. Yeah. And you seem to me to stand in total opposition to all of that and so I imagine it's a great set, Surface must be a great set to be on. I hope so, I hope so. I mean it was challenging because we had a five-month... Oliver Jackson-Kerwin, was he a nightmare? A nightmare. Absolute nightmare. Nightmare. But you know, it was tough, you know, because we had a five month... Oliver Jackson-Kirbyn was in a nightmare. A nightmare. Absolute nightmare. Nightmare. But you know, it was tough, you know, because we did have a long hiatus with the Actors Strike, the Sag Strike

and the Writers Strike right in the middle of filming for five months to be able to feel like team leader to kind of pick the momentum up again and say, OK, guys, we're going to finish this. You know, we're still here. And, you know, knowing at a time in the industry where after COVID and then the strikes, a lot of people were losing their jobs and just leaving the industry because they couldn't be without a job for a month, not able to

pay the rent, not able to exist when a lot of shows shut down, not knowing when they were coming back. So I do feel a sense of responsibility in that way, not just to the other actors, but also to the crew. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. With tons of free reality shows, you are totally free to watch what you love on Pluto TV. And for me, that's Dance Moms, Bar Rescue, The Challenge and Jersey Shore. All

totally free on Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. Your final failure. It's such a brilliant one. And I hate to name drop again, but I'm going to do Jamie Dornan had the same one. What? When he came on how to fail. Yes, he's the only other person. Okay. Don't worry, it's a good group to be in. It's your failure to stay still. But I wonder if you mean it in a different way. What do you mean when you say failure to stay still? I think that I am very busy and I think that I am very curious. And I think that sometimes I wish I could slow time down a little bit. And I

have meditated and I have done yoga and written in a journal. I have done all these things that help me kind of slow time down a bit. But I also realized that I am maybe just a little bit more sort of antsy and restless than a lot of people. Not a lot of people in our industry, but I feel like I sometimes think, how on earth did I get through school? Because I can't really even barely sit in a chair now without, you know, for a day or, you know, if I have to sit on Zoom or sit in front of a laptop, I don't know how to do it. I'm so, as I say, not restless in a sort of flippant, irritable way. But I mean, I guess I'm just curious about the world and I feel like I've still got so much to do.

Yes. I know exactly what you mean. And that's different from Jamie Dornan. So you're still unique. His was literally just I jiggle my leg load. And it drives my wife mad. The kind of nervous energy that's not going somewhere. Yes. Yes. I completely relate to what you're saying. And to me, it sounds like I mean, I don't know if this resonates. But this is, I think, where I come to with my own drive, I suppose it is, is a sort of relentless curiosity combined with an awareness that life is finite. Yes. And it can be great, but it can also be a problem. I think it can force you to

kind of overachieve and not appreciate the time. So I'm very aware of it, but I also feel like the work sometimes is a place to channel my rage as well. I put it all in there. I put all of the energy that I have goes into the work that I do because I feel there's certain things in the world that I can't control, but I feel like the stories that I tell and how I spend my energy

is down to me and the energy I bring into a space. So yeah, I don't know if it's a failure exactly, but it's one of those things that I'm curious about myself about, like why am I like that? But does it give you time to pursue relationships? Are the relationships and your friendships or... Yeah, and I work really hard at that. I think I'm very aware having lived in LA for nearly 10 years, between 2010 and 2020 pretty much, I became very aware and sort of going into these projects where sometimes you're in New Orleans for six months doing a TV show and

then you're in Albuquerque, then you're in Bristol, then you're in Jamaica or wherever you are that if you don't make the effort with your friendships, they will fall away. And so I have been very committed to making the time for my friends and my family when I'm around and trying to kind of stay in touch, not just stay in touch in terms of being together, but just be in each other's lives. And it's a challenge sometimes because I think the make-believe world can be intoxicating. And then the other side of the industry, when you've made the project, the publicity and the red carpet and the fashion and all of that side of things is almost like another job as well and sort of takes you away from reality sometimes. What I appreciate about your three failures is that they are so positive, ultimately.

The outcome is so positive. Your failure to be a ballet dancer has made you the actor you are, which we're all so grateful for. Your failure to be a painter isn't really a failure because you are a painter. I mean, you have been painting. Yes. And your failure to stay still is the thing that keeps you questing. So basically, in summary, you're a perfect human.

Not true. Not true. Well, again, I think it's all about how you look at these things, isn't it? It's all about how you frame them. And I think things that maybe felt like a failure in the moment, I love what you say about redirecting you because I think that is something I've really learned in life. Not to say that there isn't ever such a thing as a failure, but I think some things, I truly believe some things are meant for you and some things are not meant for you. And I think you have to kind of cultivate that as an actor because there's just so much rejection. You're like, all right, it wasn't meant for me, the stars weren't aligning. And, you know, so I don't know if it's just self-preservation to have

that relentless positivity, but I feel like, you know, and I've had some crushing disappointments and, you know, you don't get to this point in life without going through sad and challenging and weird things. But I choose to sort of try and learn from them and try and see what they were there to teach me. Beautiful. And you're dispensing more advice like that on Failing with Friends, because you're going to stick around and answer listener questions. But for now, I can't thank you enough for coming on How to Fail. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.