How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - How To Date: Communication - dating dos and don’ts

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

The first date has gone well for Elizabeth and Mel (the chemistry was sizzling, quite frankly) so now we turn our attention to the murky waters of early-stage communication in dating.  Psychotherapist, author and podcaster Emma Reed-Turrell joins Elizabeth and Mel this week to break down how to communicate with clarity and kindness, without ever losing our power. We explore why self-esteem plays a crucial role in shaping the way we communicate, the pitfalls of people-pleasing and how blind spots in our own behaviour often spill into our connections with others. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk You can buy a copy of Emma’s book, What Am I Missing? here.  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Now Tara has a problem because there's no baby. And we all became investigators. From Sony Music Entertainment and Perfect Cadence, this is Baby Broker. Available now on The Binge. Search for Baby Broker wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. How To Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome back to How To Date, the podcast that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Mel, welcome back my darling. How are you? I'm so delighted to be back here with you. Me too. I love your heart earrings for listeners. You can't fully appreciate this, but she is wearing beautiful gold heart earrings. And that sets our intention for open-hearted communication

today. That's exactly why I wore them. And that is what we're talking about. We're talking about communication. So last episode, we spoke about the first date with the fabulous Ryan Langie. And now we're in a situation where hopefully you have had a successful first date. And now we're in a situation where hopefully you have had a successful first date and we want to translate that into the building blocks of communication. Sounds easy, but actually one of the hardest things to get right when so much of modern

dating seems to be all about playing games. So we're going to look at communication from three angles. Firstly, how communication styles get formed and how that might be affecting how you date. Secondly, common communication pitfalls. And finally, how these pitfalls can become games and how to stop playing them. We've got a really, really special guest joining us later to tackle all of that. But before we do, Mel, what do you think are some of the do's and don'ts of communicating after a first date? Well, the first thing I'm going to say is don't play the bloody games. Let's go back to what we're talking about, about the rules.

I'm going to say burn them. Let's forget about the rules, the games, you know. The number of times I hear people say after a first date, you must not text until three days later. And people really, really buy into this as though it is law. But what's it doing? Particularly if you're sitting at home thinking, I really like this person. I want to let them know. I want to lock in that next date, but something inside you is saying you must not do that. It's just ridiculous. Yeah. And also often with those rules, you only hear about them on the rare occasion

that they've been successful. So that's when someone will report back and say, well, listen, I did this and it worked for me. And then we extrapolate from that, but you don't hear all of the myriad unsuccessful stories. That's right. That way you've actually put someone off because they feel really rejected. And the missed opportunities. Yes. You know, if you've invested so much in, let's say it was an online connection, you've done all that screening online, you've got your deal breakers out there, up front, you've met them in person, perhaps there's a little chemistry there, you've assessed that some of your values are aligned, you've met them in person, perhaps there's a little chemistry there, you've assessed that some of your values are aligned, you're excited about getting to that next stage. Why would you

stop that? Yeah, I have to say, I mean, I feel obviously enlightened now because I've watched several series of maths and my best friend is a psychotherapist and I've been through the dating badlands and so I kind of understand it all a lot better. But at the time that I was single in my late thirties, I think I did have a list of unrealistic do's and don'ts. And one of the things that I was always hyper aware of is that I don't really like phone calls. I'd much prefer to put it in text. And I would get into that awful situation where I would text something that I wanted to be funny, but I probably made it slightly too long,

and it's probably slightly too over elaborated. And then the person I was texting with wouldn't text back. And then I would fall into that rules based mindset of, well, no, I shouldn't double text. I shouldn't be the next person to text. He's got to be the one who texts back first. Otherwise, and then I just get into this spiral of anxiety. And then I'd start saying to myself, no, because now you're playing games. So just send the text. And I would send the next text. I'm feeling anxious just listening to this. It's awful. And I wonder whether there is something in the area, not necessarily a do or a don't or a rule, but is there something where we need to reel ourselves back from just going

completely over the top? Well, there's going over the top and there's being authentic. So I think we've got to really draw that distinction because no one wants to be going over the top. We're not talking about extremes of communication here, but in terms of being comfortable enough to own your needs and to express your needs is something that is so empowering. It's really scary to do, particularly the first time and if that's an expansion of your comfort zone. But if you can get to that point where you've had that date and you really like this person to be able to sit in that, and it is

uncomfortable, so you're sitting in that discomfort of, I like this person, I'm going to communicate it. You put it out there. And if that person doesn't reply, what's that telling you? That I'm a terrible waste of space and they don't get it. No, it's not about you. Okay, they could be busy. Or? Or you could not be the right fit for them, but that doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. Right.

Even as I'm saying it, I don't believe it. No, I can hear that. But maybe it means that they're not as into you as you are into them. Yes. And that's a hard thing to hear. But wouldn't that be someone you'd want to rule out rather than rule in? I think that's such a good point. And actually, because of all the work I've done on failure since being a serial data, I now understand

that within every rejection there is a seed of protection, that actually you are being protected from the relationship that is not right for you and one that you can discount but acquire necessary data from in order to do something slightly differently next time. I love that. And think of every date as gathering data points or data, as you call it. Yes. Dating data. Exactly. Are there any taboo topics in those early days of communication, do you think?

I'm going to say no. Um, and I know that's a bit, that's a little controversial because some people would believe that they definitely are off, off limits topics. But if you want to talk about something that is actually really important to you and you want to see how that person responds to it, why not bring it up? Because their response is going to tell you so much about who they are and how they see something that is actually really important to you.

Let's say it's religion. You know, a lot of people say you don't talk about sex, politics, religion on dates, you know, the things that can be a little controversial. But why not? Why not see how that person responds? Yes. Okay, final question before we bring our fabulous guest on. Is there such a thing as healthy and unhealthy communication? CK Absolutely. A lot of that's about boundaries, you know, and this is something we really do need to delve into when we're talking about dating because boundaries are so incredibly important here, knowing how far you want to go with this person. And even, you know, if this is new to you, there's nothing wrong with sitting down at home and writing this down,

you know, getting really clear on, okay, I want to talk about this, but not this. I want to ask questions to ascertain this piece of information. Let's say it's a deal breaker, maybe it's around family or religion or schooling, but I don't want to reveal this about myself. So getting that stuff really clear and then those then become your, what will be healthy communication for you. That's really interesting because I think a lot of people might think that if they're not sharing everything, they're not being honest.

But actually there's a difference between privacy and safe and healthy boundaries and having to reveal everything, isn't there? There's a difference between privacy and secrecy, I suppose is what I'm getting at. Yes. And of course, on that first date, you don't wanna say things that are gonna put you in a really vulnerable position. You know, you don't know this person yet,

you haven't established trust. I would suggest it's not a good idea to come out and share a past trauma, for example, because instantly that puts you in a position of vulnerability. And you don't know yet whether that person is a safe space for that kind of conversation. So that might be something you hold back until you feel comfortable. Okay.

Thank you so much Mel. And to help us figure out some of these essential questions, we're joined by an incredibly special guest. I did mention my best friend earlier. That was deliberate. It's because she's in the studio with us. It's Emma Reid-Torrell who as well as having the major qualification of being my best friend earlier. That was deliberate. It's because she's in the studio with us. It's Emma Reid-Torrell, who as well as having the major qualification of being my best friend, is also a

psychotherapist, writer and podcaster. And many of you will already know and love her because she and I did a podcast together called Best Friend Therapy. She's been a former guest on How to Fail. And Emma's specialisms are in transactional psychology and they're perfectly placed for looking at this murky early stage communication phase of dating. She's written extensively on self-esteem, people pleasing, and how the blind spots in our own behavior can spill into our relationships with others. She knows me better than anyone else, so I'm putting myself in a vulnerable position right now, Mel. There might be some real moments of holding the mirror up to myself here, but I am so thrilled to welcome to How to Date

Emma. Oh, thank you so much for having me. As I mentioned at the outset of this episode, we're going to split it into three parts. And the first part is, where did we get that idea from? So the background to our communication styles. So as I was talking about the things that I used to not allow myself to do when I was dating, those days that you remember only too well. Oh yes. What were you thinking Emma?

I was loving that bit where you know that you have this conversation with yourself where you you ruminate over, is this too much? Is this not enough? Should I do this? Can I do that? What's going to happen if what if I don't? To that question of how can I eliminate the risk here? How can I manage the other person's response to me so that I can keep myself safe? Which you put as, should I send this text or not? But that's one of those questions, isn't it? It's like, so where did that come from? And I want to ask you, because I think for this conversation to make sense for listeners, it's really beginning with, we know what the rules are, because we live by them all day, every day. But we need to know where they came from. Because when we know where they come from, we realize that they're not set in stone, they're just learned. And if they can be learned,

they can be unlearned. And then imagine that kind of flexible conversation we could be having. Imagine that. Amazing point and an amazing question. And as you were asking it, I was reflecting on where that had come from. And I think for me, it came from feeling like I had to second guess people's responses in order to please them and mitigate the risk of them acting or reacting in a way that would scare or unbalance me. And that comes from a lot of past relationships in my life. So the way that I was most familiar with was someone replying to my texts and being very textual and having that banter and that consistency of check-in.

And actually when Justin and I met, I couldn't understand why he wasn't replying with immediacy to my texts. I had so many conversations with Emma where I had to check in with, I feared I was being ghosted again because that had happened to me so many times. And I thought, well, if I haven't heard from him, because that had happened to me so many times.

And I thought, well, if I haven't heard from him in 48 hours, it's because he wants out. And I really did lean on you at that point in time. It was a really important point, wasn't it? Because it was the bit where you were looking for it to go wrong. And I suppose, again, that idea of where has this come from? What are your expectations? And we so often create the worst case scenario that we've been dreading because of those assumptions that we've made. So if he doesn't communicate within 48 hours, he's not into me. Which is such an inhibitor on opening up, but that idea that you were ready to see the worst because that was safer than hoping for

the best. Yes. And actually they both require equal amounts of energy. Yeah, they do. Can we talk a little bit about attachment styles? Because whilst the idea of attachment styles is incredibly helpful and has helped me personally, it feels, Mel, like it's become a bit of a buzzword. How much do you think attachment styles play into the idea of communication? Are they helpful? Mel Cates Look, I think they play into communication a lot. And I think they're helpful

as a guide, as a starting point, a jumping off point, if you like, for communication and exploring what's going on in a relationship. I think it becomes problematic when people become too focused on it. You know, the love languages is another example where people are obsessed with love languages and to the point where they become really binary and black and white about it. And they say, for example, if my partner doesn't show me an act of service, I'm out, you know, and I see that with attachment styles as well. So I think it's really important that it's a very helpful piece of information, particularly

for self-reflection and for looking at your partner and understanding that relationship. But let's not get too bogged down in it would be my message. Emma, what do you think of attachment styles? I love attachment styles for one main reason and that is that they, they prove that my way is not the way. And I think it's that piece that when we're communicating, even if we're just recognizing there is more than one way of doing this, there is more than one way of interpreting 48 hours. There is more than one way of building a relationship for the long term. Yours was, you know, by chasing. Say what you mean.

In the nicest possible way. Elizabeth. Hold on, I was like devastatingly enigmatic. You were engaged in pursuing that relationship. You were. Do you think I was with Justin though? I think it changed with Justin. No, I still think the energy was active.

It was like, I will message, it will be a generous gift of communication, and I'm looking for that to come back to me. And when it didn't come back to you, that felt like it was not meeting you there at that point. And now what we're saying is, huh, he did not experience that 48 hours the same way that you did. He was experiencing them very differently as someone who sees the world differently because they have different relationship norms to you. So for me, attachment styles are great because they say, my way is not the way. And also I think because they give you a window into understanding, I don't have to take this personally. I can get

curious about this. But how do we know? So we've spoken there about kind of where did we get our ideas from? How much does it help us or not to try and understand the ideas that someone else might be coming with? So that 48 hours where your text isn't being replied to, what if they genuinely aren't that into you and they are in the process of ghosting you with our explanation? How much time do we waste trying to understand that Mel? It's really tricky to put a time limit on it for me, you know, because I'm so hesitant about being too prescriptive here. It's really tricky to put a time limit on it for me, you know, because I'm so hesitant about being too prescriptive here.

But I think you've got to use your judgment. And I think perhaps Emma, you might weigh in here as well, but I think the best way to maybe approach that judgment is to get, find a way to get that balance between the emotion of the situation, which is important, how you feel, what your instinct is telling you, but also some evidence, some of the logical side of your brain as well. And that's where perhaps talking to a friend or someone else who's going through this can help you make sure you're balancing both. Because it's very easy to get caught up in one or the other. People who just play the rules are all in head and no heart. And

people who are just caught up in the emotion and going with the absolute excitement of it all can just get very much caught up in heart and not have the head. Do you know when you were talking that I was thinking about dialectical behaviour therapy, so DBT. Me too. No. What a coincidence. That happens all the time. And about this idea of a wise mind and how we have an emotional mind that does all of

that heart piece that feels the fear. It's been 48 hours. What does this mean for me? Will this person contact me? Will I meet anyone? Will I be alone for the rest of my life? That kind of fear. And then we have this much more rational mind that understands that we're adults, we have full-time

jobs, we're busy, we have family, we have friends, we communicate in different ways, we don't know what we don't know. And sometimes we get caught on a kind of pendulum between those two and neither one can really satisfy us, neither one feels grounded. We have to take a piece from both and land somewhere in what we would call our wise mind. It's like, okay, what was my wise mind say at this point? It would say that right now it's appropriate to stay invested in this, to see what happens next and to be open to the possibility that this won't go as far as I'd like it to and

that I'll be okay. I love that, the wise mind. And I'm just, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking of a really practical way that people could apply this. Because everybody has a bit of a default position, don't we? You either tend to be a little bit more in the head or a little bit more in the heart,

a little bit more rational or emotional. And most adults, I find, if they do a little bit of self-reflection, can pinpoint which is their sort of go-to. So what can be really helpful is to quite literally draw a line in the middle of the page and do head and heart at the top of each column and write it down because it might not naturally occur to you to do both columns. So give that a try. Yeah, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. I could listen to you two talk all day. I'm enjoying it so much. Can we talk a little bit about how we

might have inherited or had our scripts shaped by the sort of upbringing we experienced and how this might influence our communication? Absolutely. And you've used the word scripts there, which is completely correct. It's almost like you're my best friend. I know. And you've heard me bang scripts there, which is completely correct. It's almost like you're my best friend. I know. And you've heard me bang on about transactional analysis enough times to know that a script essentially is a shorthand kind of package of thoughts, feelings, behaviors that says this is how to go through your life. And it's really important that we have it because humans are the only mammals that are born effectively 12 months prematurely. So we don't come out of the womb able to fend for ourselves, to walk, to talk.

We actually have to shape ourselves to fit, well, whether we're having this discussion in a podcast studio or we're on a Tibetan hillside, we need to become adaptations in order to fit in with our family systems. And that goes to the level of communication, that goes to the level of whether or not we are open with our feelings or whether we actually have a stiff upper lip, whether it's okay to show vulnerability or whether we need to take things at face value. All of those kind of communication shortcuts

get set up for us before the age of six. So we only need to look back at our parents and our parents' parents to understand where have we got some of these rules from. And I suppose at least when I think about my situation, I don't think that my parents' parents had the same dilemmas that I have today. So it's really important for me that I keep updating some of those core conditions that came down to me. Can you just tell quickly the story about the turkey? It's one of my favourite, favourite metaphors. Okay, so this was a client that I had and this client said she had an absolutely eye-opening Christmas one year. I love the January Sessions because clients come back in, things have

happened. She said, you know what, it got to Christmas Day. We put the turkey in the oven as we always do. We sliced off the lucky top of the turkey and we put it to one side. And she said, at that point, it occurred to me that for generations, my family had sliced off the lucky top of a turkey, put it to one side. And I said to my mother, why do we do this? And my mother said, I actually don't know. We've just always done it. So I said to my grandmother, why do we do this? And she said, I don't know, we've just always done it. And we looked to our great grandmother and she said, my oven was too small. And the only reason the top of this turkey had ever come off was for the reason of fitting in an oven. And yet if we put that across a communications and dating situation, we could all be metaphorically taking

the tops off our turkeys. And there's no need. I love that. And I think also family systems, they can be so influential in so many ways. And I'm very aware, as a Gen Xer slash elder millennial, clinging onto that elder millennial category, like it's going out of fashion. clinging onto that elder millennial category like it's going out of fashion. You can have it. Actually, X is so much cooler, you're right. Anyway, but I think there's been so much more open conversation about things like neurodiversity, which I think in a family system of tradition could potentially be quite difficult to grow up in, particularly as it pertains to communication styles. And we will talk about neurodiversity in more detail later in this episode.

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Available now on The Binge. Search for Baby Broker wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Let's move on to part two, which is the pitfalls for communication. Emma, you have written so much and so brilliantly about blind spots. What we don't know, we don't know. So how might that play into a dating scenario? Yes. So this has become a kind of passion project for me, this bit about in my clinical practice, clients coming to me who are very self-aware, very reflective, doing the work and still coming up against these same obstacles. So for me, there's something about asking yourself, not what's wrong with the world

or what's wrong with the people that I'm meeting, but I'm the common denominator here. What is it that might be not wrong with me, but that's coming in without me realising? Which brings me to that point earlier about, let's say you and phone calls, the fact that you don't like phone calls. I know you don't like phone calls because you don't know how to get off them. Yes. Because you don't know that you're allowed to say, and I need to wrap this up now. And until you knew that, you wouldn't have known why you didn't like phone calls. So if we can all start to understand not what we're doing, but why we're doing it, not what we're tripping over, but what's there that we haven't spotted yet,

then we can get so much further faster in terms of matching. And for me, I split into four profiles. I created a rock, a gladiator, a hustler, and a bridge. I love a profile because they give us a category to just hook some of our initial thinking on. Mel, do you think you had blind spots when it came to dating? We've spoken extensively, which made me laugh so much

about how Mel felt that she was showing up very smugly. I love that. So you should, I think. Quite frankly. To the point that I was so blocked. I think I kept dating the same man in different clothing and he was Mr. Unavailable. So I would sabotage the hell out of any relationship that came near me. But that's what I kept doing and I think that's where there was a blind spot for me.

Because I was constantly left wondering, why do I keep attracting these guys who, you know, some it was subtle, it was in terms of emotional unavailability, slippery, a little bit hard to put your finger on where they're at. Some were really obvious, they lived overseas. Or they were a gigging stand-up comic that had no fixed address. Literally unavailable people were the ones that I was bringing into my orbit. And I think I got into a bit of a, poor me. Why do I, what's wrong? What's going on here?

Why do I keep attracting these duds who can't give me what I need? It took a long time for me to be able to reflect and I guess start to unpick that blind spot a little bit and understand more about it. And I realised that, you know, that the energy that I was putting out there was very much, I'm unattainable, you can't actually get close to me, there will be no vulnerability here. So the only people who I was able to attract were people who were also unavailable. And how did that play out in your communication? Would you just not communicate that much? No, because obviously I'm an over communicator.

I would get combative and probably, if I'm honest, defensive. That's probably really what was going on there. And, you know, deep down, what was really going on was I was feeling really sad and hurt because these men weren't showing up as my knight in shining armor. You know, they weren't giving me anything that I really needed, but I wasn't able to see that that was because of the dynamic I was creating. Fascinating. And Emma, in terms of the blind spot profiles, how might each of them communicate? So those profiles, they've had a successful first date, and now they're trying to translate that into building blocks of communication that will become something healthy.

Well, let's start with Rok, because... That's you. And maybe if we're a little bit of me, a little bit of Mel. Yeah. Because that's the interesting thing about as soon as we know what we're not bringing is vulnerability, we know that we have a kind of duality of need, which I think is part of understanding this blind spot. I need you to stay at arm's length and I need you to come and find me. Oh dear. And how sexy. Sexually confusing.

It means having one of those like grabbers, you know. Yeah. Rubbish collective. Yeah, one of those. Just prod me from a distance. Because this is the nature of the blind spots that I desperately want something and I haven't grown up believing it's mine for the taking. So now I'm going to have to defend against the risk of not getting it

again. Even though actually what I really want is for that gigging stand up comic who lives abroad and you know, I really want him to come and for me to be so important that it's worth him doing the work. And so rocks often communicate with this kind of standoffishness. We're on the lookout for somebody who's gonna let us down or become someone that we have to look after. It takes a brave person to come into a rock's life and help them feel safe enough

that they can let their walls down and be vulnerable. That's my husband. He almost literally said that to me. Wow. In fact, when he proposed, part of his speech... Did he do it with a grabber? He can't be the whole distance. Rubbish grabber.

Had a little note and a ring. He was down on one knee, although... He was on the standup circuit at the time. Spoiler. Yeah, I didn't marry the comedian. Part of this speech when he proposed was that he saw my Samantha Jones tough exterior, saw right through it to the vulnerable little girl inside who wanted to be protected and that's who he fell in love with. Isn't that gorgeous? Is that what Anton did to you?

No. So Emma's husband's called Anton. No. What Anton did, because he talked about the rock kind of communication, Anton's more of a kind of hustler bridge. That's me by the way, everyone. Yes, I know, which is why I fall in love with both of them. But there is that energy where the bridge, for example, is a much more easygoing, gentle, flexible, this doesn't sound very sexy, harmless is what I was saying.

Yes, I'm more of a hustler. You're much more of a hustler. You're not harmless. He had an energy that said, listen, you can just like stumble and trip and fall and fail around me. I'm not going to judge you and something that let me be much less perfect, not that I ever was, but that felt like a safe goal and somebody who could ask for help and wouldn't be shamed for asking for help and wouldn't be rejected. So the bridge might communicate in a seemingly chilled, maybe slightly banterish way? I think what you find with a bridge is a very open-heartedness. Someone who wants to understand, who wants harmony in a relationship, who wants things to feel okay. What can also come is

some passivity and that's the risk when the bridge is communicating because we don't always hear what the bridge wants and needs. And if we don't hear it, then the issue comes when we hear it down the line. So it's really important for a bridge to be honest and to be a bit brave themselves about saying, and here's what I'm looking for. A hustler I'm imagining communicates perfectly and is absolutely amazing and devastatingly attractive. No notes for the hustler. Moving on. Tell us how a hustler might communicate. Hustlers are so great at being what the other person needs them to be. And that's the blessing and the curse. It's that they can be so agile. They can be so flexible in a way that means that they will

be funny when they need to be funny. They can be caring when they need to be caring. They can have intellect, wit, they can be razor sharp, they can be loving, they can be what you need them to be. An emotional chameleon. 100%. Shape-shifter. Yeah. And we get this situation then with the hustler where that feels good. It feels great to be around a hustler because they are going to make you feel like you are

a queen. It can also mean that, and this isn't shade on a hustler, I'm saying looking directly into the eyes of one. It can be manipulative and it's not conscious. They're not doing it because they want to screw someone over, but they might not always be as genuine as actually we would love them to be. We want to know that this doesn't work for them. We want to know that actually they have different expectations

because otherwise how can we ever really be in a full relationship with them? So I suppose advice to hustlers is know what you're doing for them and know what you're doing for you and just communicate that, show your workings out. Finally, the gladiator. Gladiators, okay. So gladiators are ambitious, single minded, focused, bullish

communicators at times. They can have little expectation of trust. They aren't necessarily bringing empathy to conversations. What they're looking for is clarity and to have their needs met, which makes it sound like they could be maybe too dominant in a conversation. Actually, there's a brilliance of clarity when you communicate with a gladiator. You know exactly what you're getting. But if you are a gladiator and you know that you can be a little full on, you can be a little too direct, it's worth recognizing actually that putting yourself in their shoes and bringing a bit of empathy to that communication as well can be really helpful. So I always talk to gladiators about saying when you're thinking

about what you need, we just need to be accounting for both of you. Thank you. I think that's such a helpful lens through which to view this topic of communication, because not only can you listen to that and think, oh, well, I think I'm probably a hustler, so I'll be aware of this, or I think I'm a blend of these three and maybe the partner that I'm currently in communication with as a gladiator, but we can also use it as a helpful tool to understand what might be going on for the other person. And once we have applied that level of understanding, then there can be greater clarity and honesty on both parts. When that doesn't go according to plan, we start playing games. So this brings us on

to the third part of this episode, which is the games that we play, sometimes with ourselves in our own heads. Mel, I know many listeners will want me to ask this question. Why do we catastrophize? Why do we think the worst possible thing? I think there's something in there about if I blow this up and push you away, then you can't hurt me. It's a form of self-sabotage. Right. And it's also a way of taking control of a situation, which sounds counterintuitive, doesn't it? Because you're undermining a relationship. But if we really simplify it, it's, I'm breaking up with you before you can break up with me. It's that kind of approach.

Yeah. And we touched on this in the last episode, the concept of limerence. Will you explain it to us, Emma, what limerence is? The idea of being in love with being in love. Yes. Yeah. Well, I think there's something again to your point Mel about control, but I can keep you perfect. And as long as I'm in love with the idea of you, you're delivering for me. You know, I can, I suppose, take this back full circle to the beginning of our conversation

about why do we do these things? Where does it come from? We know that when we're little, it's safer to find fault in ourselves than in our caregiver. We know that we'll do whatever it takes to close the gap between us and the people who are charged with not only our emotional okayness, but our survival. I think we can bring some of that through to our romantic relationships

and still look to keep other people okay. So we would rather have a version of a relationship that's not real than one that's got warts and all, spiky bits and problems and things that are going to let us down. Of course, we can never cash in on it. We have to just tiptoe around the edges, never feeling fully fed. And you can see how some people become almost addicted to that limerence phase where they'll go around and date for a short period of time. Whilst they've got that, you know, it's also known as the honeymoon period, all the excitement and all of the hormones rushing around and all the good stuff. And as it starts to get serious, they'll cut and run and go on to

the next one and get a hit, that like dopamine hit from different people. And I've certainly known people who do this and they're never going to be satisfied because they're not getting past that initial sort of almost fantasy phase into the real stuff. There's also that sense, isn't there, of bread crumbings, giving someone just enough to keep them interested enough that you can call on them when you might feel like it. And then there's orbiting, isn't there, which is a phrase I only heard quite recently, that idea that although you've cut off,

or it's been cut off for you, your main source of communication, you're still seeing that person popping up, viewing your Instagram stories, they're still seeing that person popping up viewing your Instagram stories, they're still somehow keeping tabs on you. Because we live in a society where there is an overwhelm of choice, I think that there is such a danger of constantly falling into the trap of believing that there is something better there for you. Even if you are in a really good, albeit not perfect situation, because nothing is perfect. There's an unwillingness

to do the work because there's this belief that there's something even more ideal just over there. It's so true. You know, I'm thinking about all of these, this language, you know, whether it's limerence and that idea that you were saying, Mel, about these dopamine hits, it's like having kind of sugar rushes, isn't it? And then we get the crash and we don't know how to regulate our body. And, but that isn't necessarily giving us that kind of instant hit. And I think as a society, so much has become instant, so much has become, it has to be kind of now and it has to deliver something that feels good. That we've lost touch with actually

the range of feelings that we can have. And I mean, how often do I hear you say on the couch, on maths, at this stage in the relationship, something has to be different. We go through an adjustment period and that's not bad. That's actually a gateway. Yeah, it's required. Yeah, it's an essential part, right, of relationship development. It's so interesting that you bring up maths at this point, because as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about a trend we've noticed over the last couple of years in both countries is that idea of disposable dating coming into the maths world.

Wow. And we're seeing it. We're seeing people want to cut and run really, really early in the piece, not actually wanting to bunker down and do the work together, but thinking, who's over your shoulder? Who could I see over there, whether that's looking at someone else's partner and trying to do a swap, or actually wanting to just cut and run and leave the experiment because it's all too hard. So this is something we've started, particularly in the latest Aussie series,

actually talking to our couples a lot about. So interesting. Can we talk about one of the hottest topics and one of the things that I get most messages about, which is ghosting? Now, I've been the subject of ghosting, but I also have ghosted, which I feel really bad about now. But it was, how old am I now? It was seven years ago. And I do think that we now happily have so many more conversations around this that I don't think I would do the same again. But there was one particular day I went on. I just had a massive panic attack because there was no chemistry. And he I think felt that there was and the next day WhatsApped me and said, I've written a song about you. I was like, I just can't, I can't. I just

then massively retreated and I was like a tortoise in my shell. I can't. And I never replied to him and I feel really, really bad about it, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. So I'm also someone who's been guilty of ghosting. Why do we do it and how should we handle it? You're going to hide now. I am literally, because I'm wearing a turtleneck. I'm literally just doing, you two take over. I'm just wondering if the guy you ghosted is actually listening right now. I love that. If there's anything you'd like to say to him, Miss Elizabeth.

I know. If you are listening, I'm so sorry. And I didn't know myself well enough. And I didn't feel ready enough or worthy enough. And I think you seem so lovely and I hope you found happiness. And I dealt with that situation badly. Oh, I want to know what you would actually have liked to have said to him at the time because you know, is it okay for someone we haven't mentioned this, have we? Love forming. That's another another word that we hear now. Is it okay? I remember for him to go from kind of zero to 100 to be I mean, he was literally like drawing your pictures.

Yeah, he was. That actually is a good point. Before we met, he was drawing me pictures. Maybe you ghosted because you didn't feel allowed to say, I'm not really feeling this. Nailed it. That's completely right. But we are allowed to say it, aren't we? And so I think we're responsible for saying it. Right. Yes. What phrases would we use? For me, it feels really okay to say, I'm not really feeling this.

I'm okay because their response is not my responsibility. I don't have to sugarcoat that. I wouldn't want that. And actually Mel, in the previous episode, you gave a brilliant example, which was, I'm sure we're both feeling there's not the chemistry we would have liked or something like that, where it makes it into a collective experience.

And there's a bit of face saving there for the other person. It gives them an out. If you are ghosted, how do you pick yourself back up after that, Mel? It is tough. Let's just call it for what it is. It's a really hard thing to take. And you know, I get really angry when people ghost. I think, apart from you, my darling, of course, you did it in such a lovely way. Back in your polo. I know. Back in the polo. It is dating cowardice. And I find it really unattractive and inexcusable

these days. You know, the fact that we have the term ghosting, I think is such a concern that it's become so popular that it's got its own name. And all we're talking about here is cowardly behavior. You know, it's avoiding finishing that interaction. All interactions, if they're not going to be the love of your life, have a start, a middle, and an end. And you're not giving this person the ending. And this is where I start thinking about dating karma and paying it forward. And wouldn't it be cool if everyone, when they wanted to break up with someone, gave that person honest feedback so that the next person they date can reap the benefits of that. I think that's so brilliantly put. Find ghosting unattractive and that is your release valve

in a way. That is a turn off. Yes, it's a turn off. Can we talk about neurodivergence in this particular space? Because communication styles will be different for everyone, but there is a specific challenge that might come up if you are neurodivergent in a world that is not particularly friendly towards your divergence. Emma, what would you say about that? I suppose this is the bit where it's really important that we recognise that all of these words we've used, you know, ghosting, bread crumbing, love bombing, that they don't really mean much, do they? They're just kind of labels that we've given to things. And I think it's really important

to recognize that somebody who's not neurotypical might not be ghosting you. And I say it as bluntly as that, that might not be ghosting. Somebody who is autistic might not be withholding. And that's something that's very close to my heart. And in my own relationships, I have had to learn that the hard way that actually my interpretation of someone, their interpretation of me is seen through a neurotypical lens that's not always appropriate. And above everything else, this for me is about being curious and open to what else is going on We find out if we want to Is that what's going on or is there something else here?

I'm not saying that's right for everyone But I just think it's something that we we owe it to ourselves as a society to be mindful of and when we're in this early phase of dating Do you think we should be open about our neurodivergence for instance? Absolutely, because it so actively colors our communication. So to be able to share with someone if I'm behaving in this way, this is why, so that they're not misinterpreting you. And I think there's something so beautiful and generous about that. It would make me feel closer to that person that they had felt able to trust me and feel safe enough to share

that. Before we draw this to a close, Emma, I want you to tell us about the whiff of the wonk, one of Emma Reid Terrell's trademark phrases. I need to understand this. Sometimes, and I suppose this is that point about intuition and wise mind. If I was going to put a more intellectual spin on it, it would be that. It's sometimes you just pick up something. There's something up here and I could gut feel like a gut feeling, like something that's just, you're saying this, it's not, it's not matching my internal experience. Or we are seemingly having a good conversation, but I can feel that there's something here. And you know,

we talk about in psychology, don't we, this idea of there is a social communication and then there is a psychological communication. And often they look very different, you know, would you like another drink? Might sound reasonable. But psychologically, we're picking up, I don't think they're actually asking me if I want to stay for another drink. I think they want to go. It's really important that we learn to tune into what doesn't feel like a match there. And it's not because I want people to prejudge, I don't, you know, it goes against all my work or blind spots. But I do want them to say, I can't help wondering if you mean something different here. So for me, when I get a whiff of the wonk, as in this doesn't add up, my next response

is always to show my workings out, share my fantasy. And I think we've been discouraged from doing that, particularly I'm going to say as Brits and I couldn't disagree more. Good. I make you an honorary Aussie. That's a lovely face to end on. But I think the thing that draws us all together is that idea of interrogating your own responses and then am I getting a whiff of the wonk? If so, let me show my workings out. And so it's that idea that we keep returning to on this pod class of getting curious and staying curious and asking the right questions.

Yeah. And remembering that there are two databases available. So don't run it all through yours. Ask some questions. That's a great note. And the whiff of the wonk leads us on so brilliantly to next week's episode, which is all about red and green flags. But before we go, Emma, we love a practical exercise here on How To Date. And I wonder if you have a practical exercise that our listeners could take away with them just in order to help them communicate better and to understand communication better. Okay, can it be one about blind spots? Because this is absolutely where I roll right

now. The thing about our blind spot profile is that typically we will match with someone who has a missing piece of the puzzle for us. So it doesn't mean that we're finding our match in a blind spot profile, we might be looking for something different. What I want listeners to do is actually to think back to a previous dating experience. And I want listeners to think about what were you looking for? What first attracted you to that person when you went on that date? What was it about them that you thought, this really attracts me? And then get curious about whether that's a missing piece of your puzzle that you needed. And were you able to receive the permission for that?

Or when you actually came up against that missing piece, did you have to reject it? Did you have to push them away and hunker down back in your original place? Because sometimes the thing that brings us together ends up being the thing that breaks us up. And it's when we haven't had the opportunity or the courage or the tools to integrate a missing piece of our puzzle. So get curious looking back, what was the missing piece of your puzzle? Did you allow yourself to integrate it or did you have to reject it when it got too

close? Thank you so much, Emma Reid-Torrell. Thank you so much, Elizabeth Day. You two are so cute. I mean I'm just relieved. I feel like I got away quite lightly in that episode because I really did think she was going to open the vaults. Yeah, no, she did. She did. We'll stay on. We'll stay on. After hours. Thank you so much for making the time and thank you, wonderful Mel. And thank you, lovely listeners for tuning in for another episode of How To Date. We are loving being here. And please join us next week for red and green flags. See you then. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. How To Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons.

Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionize dating. We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness, I will not ghost or breadcrumb, I will always ask consent and you can go and sign up just by putting your email in. That's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's the podclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S,.co.uk. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening.

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