How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - How To Date: Taking it to the next level

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Things are going well… So Elizabeth and Mel are taking it to the next level where they are getting just that little bit more serious. In this episode, Mel and Elizabeth look at exclusivity and commitment and what it takes to build a strong foundation for a lasting relationship. Plus: how a partner’s past plays into your future together. After you’ve listened, you can get all the resources and worksheets discussed at www.thepodclass.co.uk Mel and Elizabeth are on a mission to revolutionise the world of dating! We want to make it a safe, fun and rewarding experience for everyone. If you’d like to join us, we’ve put together our very own How To Date Good Dating Pledge, consisting of 10 simple ‘Dating Commandments’. Have a look and sign up for free now at www.thepodclass.co.uk  If you don’t want to wait each week for new episodes join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now, ad free, all at once. Follow the link to sign up: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/ A Daylight and Sony Music Entertainment Production. _______________________________________________________________________ Morrisons terms & conditions More Card T&C’s: https://www.morrisons.com/more/terms-and-conditions/ General T&C’s https://groceries.morrisons.com/content/terms-and-conditions?srsltid=AfmBOor2xSfFNVtu22I9z5plcQkO6kId8jZ3NSdAF4X4Mt8JQkhO_ylQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, how do you cope? We explore the moments that shape them and the ways they've learned to move forward. Whether it's mental health, grief or overcoming fear, we talk about it all honestly and openly. So if you're looking for real conversations about resilience and finding light in the dark, follow How Do You Cope? Brought to you by Audible, wherever you get your podcasts. How To Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day.

And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. And every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. And I just wanted to let you know that if you don't want to wait each week for new episodes, please join our wonderful community of subscribers where you can binge all episodes now ad free all at once. Just follow the link in the show notes. Hello, my darling Mel. Hello, gorgeous. So we are six episodes in. Wow.

Are we ready to take it to the next level, is the question. I'm certainly ready to take it to the next level with you. Well thank you. What a relief. It has been such a journey of discovery so far. I've really loved it. I've loved talking to you. I've loved talking to our guests.

Last week we had the amazing La La La Let Me Explain talking about red and green flags. And boy, we've had a few of those, haven't we? Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. But now we're at the stage where it's green flags all the way. And we have decided that we are ready to take it to the next level in what we hope to become a serious relationship. So Mel, do you think there is ever a hard and fast rule when it comes to timeframes as to discerning when it's appropriate to take it to the next level? I would say definitely not a hard and fast rule, but I think you need to be very, very clear yourself about

what that transition looks like between the situationship or we're just casually dating through to we're in a serious relationship. I think so many couples muddle their way through this transition in a really clunky way and end up in this place where they're starting out a relationship and they're not on an even kill and I think it's so important to give yourself the gift of a really smart, clear conversation about the next stage of the relationship if you want to have a positive relationship. Yeah, I relate to so much of that and I think what was happening is that I would kiss someone or go on a date with someone and then think, well, they seem nice enough. So obviously,

this is going to end up being a relationship. And actually, it doesn't need to be. And I think that if I look back at myself in my 20s, potentially there was part of me that was still conditioned to people please, where I thought, well, if this person wants to date me long term, then I should say yes. And then another part of me probably was comparing myself to my peers and feeling like, well, I want to have this because my friends have it, or I'm of an age now where I really should have it because TikTok time is running out and if I want to have children in my 30s, I've got to get the relationship in place in my 20s. And so all of that was going on in my head. What wasn't going on

was the question, what do I want? And also, who am I? I don't think I took the time to understand who I was. And I think absolutely who am I is very important. But I think when we're talking about this topic, this taking it to the next stage, what do I want, I think is an even more important question. Because so often, like you've described there, we just respond to other people's needs and all the shoulds that rain down on us from our families, from the media, from Hollywood, from rom-coms, you know, the shoulds. Therefore, if the music stops and there's someone standing in front of me, then that's the person I'm going to enter into a

relationship with. But I'd love for our listeners to start thinking of that early phase of the, the relationship where you're, you know, I like to think of it like dogs. You know how dogs sniff each other's bums? I mean, that's what we do. I love where this is going. Okay. So you're advising our listeners just to sniff each other's bums. Absolutely.

When they're doing it, okay, fine. Yes. Metaphorically speaking, bombs. Absolutely. Okay, fine. Yes. Metaphorically speaking or physically speaking. No judgment here. Absolutely no kink shaming whatsoever. I love the way dogs do that. And I think that's what new couples do as well, is they're sussing each other out. And I think it's really important that as an individual in a new relationship, you keep

coming back to, does it fit me? I'm assessing this potential partner to see if they are going to work for me in my life. Not so much whether I measure up for them, that's their business. Because we can get so caught up on that. That's so true. And actually, again, I really relate to that in a negative sense in that I would never have thought of it that way around. I would always have thought of it as if I am not right for them there's some failing in me that I need to address so let me attempt to shape shift. I should say to our lovely listeners that there's no guest on this episode because Mel and I were too greedy and wanted to look at this topic all on our own because it is such an important one. And I think it's

particularly interesting because of our joint experiences in dating because when we met on our husbands, we were both 39. Yeah, that's right. And at that stage for a cis hetero woman, the idea of timeframe comes with this added edge, which is if you do want to have a family, then you have to factor that in as well. So for any listeners who are in that position, what advice would you give them that they don't rush things that aren't right for them? It's a really complex area and I find it hard to give hard and fast advice about this. When I started my dating coaching practice, almost exclusively, this was the pool of clientele that I was working with.

It was women in their mid to late 30s who were starting to feel that urgency. But I think if that woman can keep coming back to what do I need and try not to be swayed by other people's expectations, whether that's this prospective partner or previous partners or family or society at large, you know, to come back to what is it that I need and is this the right partner? If it is that, you know, you're knocking on the door of parenthood, is this the right partner? Is this the person I want to co-parent children with?

And you know, it may not be that that's the person that you're in a relationship at the moment with. And you know, it may not be that that's the person that you're in a relationship at the moment with. And that could be a really hard question to ask yourself. You know, maybe I've invested six months in this new relationship with this person. There's something niggling away deep inside me. There's a little fear in there. And if I listen to it, I realise that I probably couldn't see myself parenting with this person. And being a parent is one of the most important things to me right now. Then I've got to make a really hard decision. And that's hard, of course, because we have the whole sunk costs fallacy, you know, and it's such an investment of your time. Your time's so precious, particularly in your late 30s. It's

a hard decision, but it's an important decision to make. It is. And I would like to add to that, that there are so many things that you can do to mitigate risk. We are so fortunate that we live in a world where scientific advances have meant that the biological age for parenting, it can be advanced. You do have longer than you used to have. There are many different ways to parent. I went through a round of egg freezing in my late thirties because I wanted to have that assurance. I would say though that sometimes that assurance can be a mythical one in that I didn't get that many eggs. On one level, it's great to have these

things at our disposal. On another, it shouldn't detract from your ultimate focus, which as you say, in this particular example that we're talking about, is about finding someone that you feel comfortable building a family unit with. Absolutely. And of course, on the same topic, but from a different perspective, I had a different experience. And of course, we were the same age, you and I going into these relationships. And I didn't have the burning desire to be a mother like you did. It came later, and it wasn't until I was 42 that I ended up going down that path and going through IVF and ultimately having Maddie when I was 42. So I guess just as a message to our listeners there that there

are so many different paths that we can take to motherhood through fertility. I guess what this brings up is that it is so deeply important to people, men, women and everyone in between, you know, to actually take a moment to reflect on if I'm in my mid to late 30s, is parenthood something that I want to be a part of my next decade? And if it is, what do I do about that? And it might feel a little like we're getting off topic, but I don't think we are because this is one of those incredibly critical decision points that enter into the discussion. Definitely, definitely. When you're deciding, is this the right relationship? And it's one of the things I get asked about the most.

So I'm glad that we've had this discussion in our introductory chat. And now we're going to move on because as you know, we love a three part structure here. We're moving on to three aspects of taking it to the next level. The first one is getting serious. The second one is compatibility. And the third is their past and your future. So let's start on part one, which is getting serious. We've already talked a little bit about timeframe when you decide to take it to the next step. But I'm also interested in when you decide to quit. Yes. And that sort of sunken cost fallacy that we touched on. What are some of the things that you think listeners should be looking for in terms of

making the decision either way? Okay. A couple of things to acknowledge here. One is that it's very common for partners to move at a different pace, particularly in that early phase. And this is a really good thing to be aware of because it can lead to so much awkwardness if you're not self-aware and socially aware.

So what you need to be doing in that first period, you know, it might be three months, it might be six months, might be a week, depending on how you move. But if we call it that phase one of the relationship where things are still ill-defined, maybe you're not exclusive, maybe you haven't even talked about whether you're exclusive or not,

things are still unsaid, you're just sniffing each other's bums. During this time, one partner may be moving toward that goal post of the chat much more quickly than the other. So you might be in a position where you're the one pacing really fast, or you might be the one lagging behind. I think it's really helpful to call that out. And you know, you can use humor in these kinds of conversations. I'm a huge one for bringing

humor into awkward conversations and actually calling it out for what it is. You know, something I used to do when I was internet dating was one of the first things I'd do when I'd sit down with my date was say, isn't this hilarious? We've just met online and now we're meeting for the first time. I'm nervous. Are you nervous? And it would just break the ice and we'd both laugh at the thing, you know, the

situation that we're both in, that we've put ourselves in and isn't it awkward. Haha. Ice is broken. Let's have a drink. You can bring that into this as well, as you're leading up to the chat. And I put that in capital letters. and I put that in capital letters, FYI, is calling out the awkwardness or the lack of, what would you call it? Ease, synchronicity.

Synchronicity, perfect. That's the perfect word. Because if one person arrives there before the other and they don't realize that the other person isn't there yet and they try to have the chat, it can be overwhelming for the other person. You really need to read the room here. And a good way to do that is by dropping out little hints or little pebbles to see how the person responds. So let's say you are the person who's moving a little bit more quickly than your partner. person responds. So let's say you are the person who's moving a little bit more quickly than your partner. I feel like you're directly staring into my soul. I feel personally attacked and you're completely bang on. We'll get onto that in a second. So yes, let's say hypothetically

that you are the one. Hypothetically, let's say your name's, I don't know, Liz. Yes. And you're really wanting to have the chat. What could you do? What little questions could you ask or what pebbles could you throw? So this is where I think it's good to go back to something we talked about in relation to the first date, which was those open-ended questions. So this is not putting your partner on the spot or, you know, trying to tie them down to something really, really confronting, but exploring things together.

This is tapping into your curiosity again. So you might ask a question like, you know, when you, when you think about us in a couple of years, what does it look like? Love that. Is there even an us? Do they cringe when you say the word us? I mean, that would be very telling in itself. Be a bit awkward, but very telling. So I guess this is about dipping your toe in the water. And you know, I sort of, when it comes to building confidence in different

areas of life, I often talk about expanding the comfort zone rather than jumping out of it. You know, I don't really believe about jumping out of your comfort zone into that anxiety zone. I don't think it achieves much. So what if you were to just expand the comfort zone by asking some of those open questions to just start gently gathering information about their perspective? And this is all about mitigating risk really, ensuring that when you do initiate having the chat, that they're going to be receptive and it's going to be a soft place to land. So many things that I absolutely adore about everything you've just said there, expanding your comfort zone rather than leaping out of it into restless anxiety is so key. And

the open-endedness of those questions, I mean, at worst what you end up with is an interesting conversation and that's actually a wonderful place to be, to get into the practice of having conversations with someone who hopefully, if they are worthy of you, will end up as your long-term partner. That in and of itself is a great exercise. The other thing that I like about it is that we are so often sold this contradictory myth. On the one hand, we need to know who we are and what we want and what we're worth and we need to stake our claim to it and say, listen, if you're not with the program, then you're out of my life and

be this kind of badass Samantha Jones-esque figure. And this goes for someone of any gender. And then on the flip side of that, if you've had any experience of dating emotionally unavailable individuals, you will be only too aware of the danger of putting them off by being quote unquote too much or coming on too strong. And so then you get into this situation of game playing where you avoid saying, where do you see us in two years? You avoid saying, do you see us going on holiday even? You avoid putting any pressure or any demands on this other person because they have made it so clear that commitment freaks them out. And yes, I do have experience of this. And it's emotional fuckwitage of the highest order. Yes. So the chat, what is the chat?

Is the chat, well, this is something our listeners need to ask themselves, isn't it? What is it that you want to achieve from the chat? Is it exclusivity? Is it having a very conventional notion of boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend? Or is it something else like an exploration of polyamory? How would you suggest we determine which of those parameters is important for us? Right. And that is the starting point, isn't it? Deciding what we want, because this is all about us as an individual, because you're not really a couple yet. This is about

as this individual with a sense of self, what does this self need in this relationship? So doing a bit of self exploration is really important here, whether that's journaling or talking to a trusted friend or, you know, just meditating on it, getting clear about what do I want out of this relationship, this phase in my life. Maybe it is about exploring something new. Maybe it's about expanding your beliefs about what relationships are. Maybe you get a sense that this partner is someone you could explore that with.

So even if you spend a bit of time writing a letter to yourself about this next relationship you go into, self, is going to involve this, these opportunities for exploration. You know, maybe it's not the traditional format of a relationship, but what is important is that you're clear on what you want. Yes. Yeah. And actually that's something I'd love to talk to you about is that idea of dating safety and consent and how aware we should be of these topics at this time. Oh, it's such an important topic and I'm so glad that you've introduced it here. It needs to be completely top of mind. You know, these days we're talking about enthusiastic, continuous consent.

You know, it's so much more than just saying yes. And I think it's so much more than just in the sexual realm as well. You know, I think consent to move to the next stage of the relationship is also really important to have some agency over. But when it comes to the sexual side of consent, I think this is a really important one for listeners to be talking to each other about, not just with your partner, but with friends and having this conversation, getting comfortable with the language around consent. Because we haven't grown up having language around consent,

have we? Certainly people of sort of Gen Y and Gen X, yeah. God help the boomers. I mean, there was certainly none of it there. So I think starting to get comfortable with language around, I'm comfortable with this, I'm not comfortable with this. And for people who are initiating, are you comfortable with this? Are you still comfortable with this? Let's make that language really normal because it can be so sexy.

Definitely. And that's something new that we need to introduce. Starting here, investing with RBC. When it comes to reaching your goals, personalized advice and performance matter. And now you can get $300 when you invest with RBC. Offer ends March 3rd, 2025. Terms and conditions apply. Invest with RBC today. Exclusivity. That idea of asking someone to be your partner and let's talk about sort of conventional relationship where we've decided that actually we're going to be faithful to each other. I think there's something that feels a bit immature about it. Yes. Like I can remember being in primary school and boys saying to me, will you go with me,

Mel? You know? And that was a definitive question with a definitive answer. And there you go. There's a line in the sand. We weren't girlfriend and boyfriend and now we are. Right. So having that conversation as an adult now, for me, feels a little bit like an

immature school child thing to kind of say. So there's a re-education around that as well. I have learned a lot from, I'm going to mention a rival reality TV program here, Mel, I hope you don't mind, which is Love Island. Yes. I've learned a lot about how younger generations conceive of exclusivity and being boyfriend, girlfriend, and how, or girlfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend, or however you identify, and how many stages there are to it. Which I'm not used to as a 46-year-old woman. That notion that you can be seeing multiple people, then you decide that you go exclusive, so you're not seeing other people. Then after that, you might decide

to be in a relationship. Wow. Did you know that? I've not heard that extra phase in the middle. Yes. Okay. So there's exclusivity that might come before we're in a relationship. Exactly. Exactly. Interesting. It's just interesting that I think different age groups will potentially have different approaches. And so if you are in an age gap relationship, for instance, again, that might have an impact on how it's perceived. And again, that's when you bring in your Mel Schilling

open-ended questions. Absolutely. Or you do what my Gareth did. Can I share how he signposted that we were moving to the next phase? He demonstrated it for me, behaviourally. And as a behavioural scientist, I really respected this. So we were at lunch. What he did was he got up from the table, pulled out his phone, made a phone call. And I thought, what's going on with this guy?

How weird. We're midway through this lovely lunch, not into this at all. Anyway, he came back and he sat down and I said, what was that about? And he said, Oh, I'm, I'm just ending it with all the girls that I've been sleeping with. And he, he, he, I don't know if there really were six or seven, but that's amazing. That's the impression that that's what he was doing. He had gotten to the point where in his mind, he didn't communicate it with me, but in his mind, he got to the point at

that lunch where he realized that he only wanted to be in a relationship with me. That's such a baller move. Yeah. I guess it was. Yeah. Were there any other behavioral changes or that was the main one? That was the main one. And it was pretty direct and strong and decisive.

Yes. Yeah. Did you then have to break off with all of the men you were sleeping with? No, I wasn't sleeping with anyone. I'd like to say that I was, but I really wasn't. No, because that would be game playing, Mel. So we don't have to do that. That's it.

That's amazing. What a story. Okay. We've spoken about getting serious in the timeframe and what commitment means. Now let's move on to the second part, which is compatibility. Yes. Let's discuss compatibility in all of is compatibility. Let's discuss compatibility in all of its facets. Let's start with a big one. Let's start with sexual compatibility. I'm very interested in sexual compatibility because I sometimes think that it can obscure the emotional truth in that I have been sexually compatible with many, many, many partners. Not that many,

with some partners. And that has made me think that there's more there than there actually is. And it's one of those things that in those instances, although we never got far along enough the line to know, I imagine probably would have fizzled out, but the emotional compatibility wasn't there. But sometimes I think it can be really confusing. And sometimes like chemistry, as we discussed in a previous episode, sexual compatibility can build, can't it? Jess It absolutely can. And I think you make a really good point in that sexual compatibility can mask deficits in other areas. Have you heard the expression drowning in dick sand?

I think that's what you're talking about. That? Now it needs to be an expression that I use every single day. You must take it and adopt it. Drowning in dick sand, I love upon as well. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's what it is. Yes. That's what it is. And I've definitely seen this with friends and I'm sure I've

been drowning in it myself because it can become all-encompassing and particularly for women because we have oxytocin, don't we? It's a lovely hormone, it helps us bond with friends and it's the love hormone that makes us feel good. But I'm going to say, unfortunately, every time we have an orgasm, we release oxytocin and it confuses us because we think that the person who was the object of the orgasm, therefore, needs to be our mate for life. LESLEY And is that a female specific thing? KATE It is. LESLEY God, that's annoying. KATE It's so annoying.

LESLEY I mean, great, but sometimes. Great if you're in a committed long-term relationship, but if you're just having sex with someone, that's why it can be so confusing, I think, for many women having casual sex. Because every time we do it, part of our old lizard brain says, this is your partner for life. Even when it's wildly inappropriate. Even when you're just drowning in dick sand. Exactly. So you put yourself out of that dick sand. And of course what we know about quicksand is it's impossible to get out of. I'm trying to think, I'm wasting a lot of time trying to think about it. Visualizing it. Visualizing it, but

also trying to think of an equivalent for a vagina, like a vagabond. I just think clit sand. Clit sand! Yes. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we pay her the big bucks. This is Mel Schilling. Clit sand. Okay. So sexual compatibility, again, how much should it factor into this stage, into whether we decide to take this forward?

Jess Well, it is part of this discussion. If we were to think about all of the data points that we're gathering, so during the bum-sniffing stage you are gathering data points about compatibility, one of them will be your sexual compatibility because let's be honest, it is one of the long-term ingredients in a relationship, isn't it? It varies so much from couple to couple. And again, that issue of pace comes into it as well. You know, depending on each partner's sexual experience and maybe trauma, they're going to have different paces. So I think, you know, it's really important to be very open-minded at this phase in terms of how that compatibility is going because it's still early days. You know,

you may not have established your rhythm yet as a couple, pun intended. You are still figuring it out. But what I would say at this phase is if there is very little sexual compatibility or if you're finding you're not attracted to your partner sexually, if you're not desiring them on a sexual level, then it's got to start throwing up some pretty big questions for you about the longevity of this relationship. I mean, it's not black and white. I'm not saying that there has to be sexual chemistry in order for the relationship to go the distance because as we know, some relationships have very minimal sexual elements to them or none at all. So

again, it's going to come back to that personal preference. What do I need? What do I need in this relationship in order for it to be satisfying for me? And some people also might not feel amazingly sexually compatible with their partner, but want a partnership and look for sexual compatibility outside of that partnership with the full consent of both individuals. And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about conversation. Do you think at these relatively early stages, sexual compatibility should be part of our conversation?

Yes. Okay. Cause as a repressed British person, that sounds really awkward to me. Let me be the Aussie and take over here because yes, yes, yes, we do need to talk about sex because one of the sexiest organs we have is our? Brain. Absolutely. And this is where you can start establishing a greater depth of sexual compatibility and just sexual enjoyment is through talking about it. You know, whether that's talking about the things you'd like to do together,

whether it's talking about your sexual history, your ideas about, you know, where you could potentially take things. These are the building blocks of a really good, sustainable sexual relationship. If it's just physical and it's just what physically happens in the bedroom and then you never talk about it outside of that, then there's really nowhere for it to go. How's it going to grow? I think you've got to add fuel to that fire and the way to do that is through conversation.

And I think if you start it earlier, it becomes easier than for that just to be integrated into your relationship longer term. So again, is there an open-ended conversational question that we could use in this scenario? Absolutely. And this is a great place to use those open questions. You know, I mean, let's say you're starting to get comfortable with this person and you're thinking, you know, I'd like to do more. What if you ask them something like, tell me about your most exciting sexual fantasy. Great. Okay. Now we spoke a little bit about exclusivity and because we're talking about sexual compatibility now, I wonder if we can bring in micro cheating because we're all

aware if we've had a clear conversation with someone who we want to be our romantic partner about what our boundaries are and one of those boundaries is I don't want you to have sex with other people. That's a clear one. What is micro cheating? So micro cheating are those small, seemingly insignificant behaviours that are based on deception. So deception is the key here. The behaviour itself, not necessarily, but it's when you're doing things in secret that you wouldn't want your partner to know about.

So some examples that I've seen are saving somebody else's name in your phone under a pseudonym because the idea of your partner seeing that person's text pop up on your phone would be uncomfortable. That's a sign. Or not telling your partner who you're following on social media, not showing them, for example, because you maybe want to have some private chats with someone. You need to ask yourself the question, why don't you want your partner to see this? So it's not the act of who you're following, that's fine. But the fact that you're wanting to conceal that from your partner. So this is really about a little bit of emotional cheating, you could say, but really what it

comes back to at its essence is the deception. By the way, before we start recording, Mel casually said that she is credited with inventing the term micro cheating. Yes. So we're extremely thrilled to have the originator of that term in the studio with us. I think that's so interesting because there could be two things going on. One is that you are concealing things from your partner because you want to pursue some sort of illicit flirtation.

The other is that your partner has unrealistic or jealous or borderline dangerous tendencies to want to monitor everything that you're doing. So either way, the concealment is a red flag. Right. And that's a really good point. Why are you concealing it? Is it about you or is it about them? Let's talk about the more emotional sense of compatibility, shared life goals and values, and also a bit of the practicality here. You know, where do you want to live? How do you want to live? Again, these are crucial, I would imagine at this stage. Oh yeah. I think of compatibility with three prongs and I know you love a three point discussion. Values, lifestyle preferences and deal breakers.

Great. So if we start with values, and I know we've talked about values a lot in this pod class because it's so critical. In fact, all of the research says that one of the highest predictors of compatibility is shared values. Your values are really what gets you out of bed in the morning, and they're the things that define what a good life means to you. So let's say for you, a good life is all about health and fitness. And let's say for me, it's about being active and being adventurous,

then those are gonna go really well together. But let's say your highest value is family. And let's say mine is freedom. They may or may not go too well together depending on how they're going to be enacted. So that's why this next layer becomes really important, which is lifestyle preferences, which are really values in action, how you actually behave on a day-to-day basis to move toward the living of those values. And really that's what, you know, a good life is all about, you know, being aligned with your values, being able to get up in the morning and say to yourself, the things

that are really, really important to me today are going to drive how I behave, what I say and do and the decisions I make. So when you can find a partner who has similar things that drive them to get out of bed in the morning and that drive them to want to actually take decisions and action in their life, then you're going to be moving towards similar things. And you're going to have that synergy. And then the deal breakers, that's just something for you to work out. Deal breakers, I think, need to come back to values. A genuine deal breaker is really something that would be against your values.

Yes. So not whether someone's a petite brunette. Exactly. Note to every single male maths contestant. Exactly. Right. Exactly. It would be more like someone who disrespects others. There's your deal breaker. Values, lifestyle.

Love that idea of lifestyle preferences being values in action and deal breakers. So good, Mel. From one tripartite structure to the next, the third part of this episode is dealing with their past and your future. And what we mean by that is the emotional character that has been shaped by your partner's past and what they bring into the relationship. A less kind way of saying it is emotional baggage. And particularly if you are a slightly older data, and I would put myself in that category, there are varying degrees of emotional consideration to bring into play here. I, for instance, am a stepmother of three, and that was something that I really, really had to

consider carefully, because it is such a complicated and, yes, unbelievably rewarding and fulfilling relationship, but I think that's something that one has to consider. And then there's also their past relationships. I historically have been a jealous person and I know that that came from my own insecurity, but how do we deal with any kind of jealousy that might surround our partner's past? You know what, when things rear their ugly head, like jealousy, you can either take action that will push your partner away from you or bring them closer. So, you know, I think we've all done those behaviors that push our partner away when we feel jealous. You know,

a very natural way to respond is to become clingy or to get defensive or to get narky about, you know, previous partners. But there are things that you can do that will bring them closer. And that is opening up, exploring what your fear is with your partner and being vulnerable. And that's the harder road to take because it really takes some guts to open up like that. But being able to say to your partner, I'm actually feeling a little bit fragile at the moment. I know this is irrational, but I feel some fear with you relating to that person. It makes me feel jealous and I don't like that that's coming up for me.

That is so good, Mel. I've never done it. Don't praise me. That is such a good phrase to you. Yes. Have you ever felt jealous then? I'm not a jealous person. Oh, you're just the perfect woman. Genuinely. Sorry, Justin. I don't. And I've got to say that my Gareth doesn't experience jealousy either.

Generally speaking, we are both, I guess we're both quite securely attached to talk about attachment theory again. But I think early in our relationship, it did show its head. But as the relationship has progressed, it's taken a while to get there, but that's where we are now. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing to make clear is that hopefully this relationship that you find yourself in is going to grow and you are going to spend time together. And actually, the more that you know each other, the more secure you will feel because you are asking these lovely open-ended questions that Mel has given you the vocabulary for and you are having these intimate conversations

and that develops security and safety and all of the good stuff. And I also want to say that sometimes jealousy can be so toxic that you just don't even want to go there. But it's important to understand how the person you're with has been shaped and what their hopes and fears were and what their values are because of what they've learned from past relationships. So I also wanted to say that to any listener who's struggling with it right now, it won't always be this way. Yes. And it is important to be able to sit together and examine those past lives. You know, it is really important, but it doesn't have to happen at this point. And I think buying a bit of time, that's really wise and shows real self-awareness. And I think for our listeners to take that on board is really important.

You know, there's no rule that says you have to open up your baggage and show what's inside straight away. But a bit of meta communication, so that is communicating about your communication can be really helpful here. So maybe saying to your partner, there's lots that I'd love to talk to you about when I'm ready at the moment, but I look forward to a time when we can do that together. Oh, okay. And also just on that note, because I know we touched on co-parenting, a similar sort of thing. If you're in a situation right now where you're deciding whether to take it to the next level

with someone who has children, or maybe you have children in this scenario, I actually think the wisest course of action is to work out what your relationship is, just the two of you first. And for me and Justin, that was six months before I met his kids, and that was appropriate for us. They're the most important people in my partner's life, so we need to know where we stand before we bring them in. And so I think that's another thing just to bear in mind that you don't have to have all of the answers at once. You just need to be willing to try and to be open to what might come at this particular stage.

Yes. And I think there can be a bit of a chicken and egg situation here. Do I introduce my partner to my kids in order to ascertain whether I want the long-term relationship with him or her? Or do I have the chat with my partner to establish that it's a long-term relationship before I introduce them to my kids? And that's a very personal decision. Yes. Okay. Well, goodness, we didn't need a guest today, did we? We've only just got started. We're not at the end already, are we? We are at the end already, Mal. Oh my gosh. But not of the pod class. No. And not of the relationship.

Good. Because next episode, well, actually next episode, we're dealing with rejection and heartbreak. So we are dealing with endings next episode, but in a really healthy way. And I know that it's something that a lot of people will be turning to this pod class for because it's one of the hardest, hardest things, but we're going to help you through it. So rejection and heartbreak is next week. And Mel, let's leave our listeners with one of your wonderful exercises. What would you like them to do this week? Well, this little activity is going to walk you through your values, your lifestyle preferences and your deal breakers. And by going through this activity, it'll help you get real clarity

about whether this is a relationship that you're wanting to take to the next level. Use it as a bit like a checklist. What you're going to do is identify your own values and your partner's values and the degree to which you think they are aligned. So for example, if your highest value is honesty and your partner's highest value is integrity, then those are probably quite nicely aligned. And what does it mean if you have very different high values?

What if one person's is family and the other's is freedom? What does that mean? So this will just help get real clarity as a starting point for this discussion. Because remember, the aim here is to have shared values or compatible values. Then the next piece is the lifestyle preferences. So this is the way you like to live your values, if you like, really looking at the alignment between the way your partner lives their life and the way you live yours.

Where are the similarities? Where are the differences? Where are the gaps? And also where are the opportunities for growth are the differences? Where are the gaps? And also where are the opportunities for growth for both of you in there? And then finally, the deal breakers. I mean, obviously, where there are real clashes of values,

this is where you need to have a serious conversation with yourself, firstly, about is this something you can tolerate or even want in your relationship? And if so, how are you gonna make that work? Fantastic. This week has been an absolute joy. I've loved learning from you yet again, Mel. I wish I'd had you in the early days

of every single relationship I've ever been in. You could have been a really functional throuple. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. No point in having regrets. We can still do it now. You heard it here first, listeners. How to Date is proudly sponsored by Morrisons. Mel and I are on a mission to revolutionize dating.

We want to make it better for everyone. And what better way to do that than to get you lovely listeners to sign up to a good dating pledge. Mel and I have designed 10 dating commandments, things like I will communicate clearly and with kindness, I will not ghost or breadcrumb, I will always ask consent and you can go and sign up just by putting your email in, that's all we ask. You can go and sign up at thepodclass.co.uk. That's the podclass, P-O-D-C-L-A-S-S dot co dot UK. Let's make dating better for everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Please do like, follow and share with everyone you know who might also want to listen.

And who knows, one of them might even turn out to be your future romantic partner. This is a Daylight Productions and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.