How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - 🎤 How To Fail LIVE: Craig David on racism, bullying and having the courage to open his heart again

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

All this week, I'll be dropping the recordings of our How To Fail live shows, held at Shoredtich Town Hall earlier this year.On our final night, we welcomed Craig David to the stage and we were treated to a beautiful, vulnerable conversation (with added singing!) Craig brought such generosity and open-heartedness to this event, both with me and with the audience. Listen to be uplifted, inspired and also to hear Craig's note-perfect rendition of Fill Me In during the Q&A.--This episode was recorded live at Shoreditch Town Hall on 8th October 2022 and sponsored by Stripe & Stare https://stripeandstare.com/--What's Your Vibe? by Craig David is out now https://www.waterstones.com/book/whats-your-vibe/craig-david/9781529109726--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Craig David @craigdavid Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. This very special live episode of How to Fail is sponsored by Stripe and Stare, the most comfortable, sustainable knickers in the world. I can talk to this personally as they are my favourite knickers because they genuinely are. The only reason I'm not wearing them tonight is the dress because they don't ride up and they're so comfortable you forget you're wearing them. That leaves you to worry about more important things throughout the day because, as we all know, nothing great was ever achieved in uncomfortable underwear. Even better, stripe and stair knickers are sustainably sourced from beechwood trees, which are softer than cotton,

use 95% less water in their production, and give no VPL as they lie perfectly flat against the skin. Yes, whoop away! Whoop away for stripe and stair, because only 3% of the underwear market is sustainably sourced, which is pretty terrible for a product that hopefully we most of us wear every day stripe and stare is also b core accredited they've been described as the most comfortable knickers around by magazines such as forbes and harper's bazaar and by 98 of the women who wear them and i know there are some men in the audience, and if you want to wear them too, no judgment. Shop online at stripeandstare.com and with a 20% discount for the next month using the code F20. That's F20. Also available at Selfridges, Shopbop, and Revolve. Thank you very much to Stripe and Stare. Thank you. Shoreditch Town Hall, it is so lovely to be in your company. Hello and welcome to the

last night of our How to Fail live recordings. It might be the last, but it's by no means the least, because I am so excited by my guest this evening, I'm barely holding it together. My first year at university will forever be soundtrack to his monster hit, Seven Days, which he wrote when he was just 16, living in a Southampton council flat with his mum. His first album, Born to Do It, was the fastest-setting debut ever by a British male solo artist. Since then, Craig David has gone on to have 20 UK top 40 singles, 14 Brit Award nominations, one Grammy Award and over 15 million record sales worldwide. Last month he dropped his eighth studio album, 22, a celebration of the 22 years it's been since Born to Do It changed his and our lives forever.

This week he also published his first book, What's Your Vibe, which details the challenges of fame and his journey through depression to learn to trust his intuition. It's been quite the career for the 41-year-old David, and almost uniquely for someone with his level of celebrity, he has an untarnished reputation as a genuinely nice man, which I can now personally attest to. as a genuinely nice man, which I can now personally attest to. I used to think recognition came from winning awards, David says, but now I realise the actual winning part is all smoke and mirrors. I feel like I'm winning every day when someone comments and says,

this song changed my life. There is no award that's ever going to give you that feeling. Shoreditch Town Hall, please give it up for the incredible talent, the lovely man, the iconic recording artist that is Craig David. Thank you. Take a seat. how are you craig i'm so good i'm much better now that i'm in your presence we're saying like off the mic just how amazing you are like no in general let's let it be known right off the bat you're you're holding space for people to come in and speak their truth and and to talk not only

just about their books like or they talk about their life and i think that because of people really believe in what you you say in the way in which you you hold that space people are like okay i'll lean into that other person you've done so So kudos to you. Can you give a round of applause to Elizabeth? Stop, you're so lovely. Early doors. Thank you. Okay. You see, he genuinely is the nicest man. You're so lovely, and I really appreciate that coming from you.

And I deliberately chose that quote to end on because it's so much of what I believe about what true success actually is, which isn't about the awards. it's not about the private jets, although I'm sure they're nice, wouldn't know. It's actually about... Trust me, I'm going on just a nice little British Airways or Easy Care, if we need to get to it, it's not as hyper as you think. Smoking mirrors again, see?

But what does success mean to you now? Craig David, in your 40s, just published your first book. What does success mean? Yeah, it definitely has changed. I mean, now it would be able to sit here with you today and for me to be in front of an audience and to not be performing a song, but yet being able to talk about being an author

and having a book out there, but also to actually be able to take some of those life experiences and hopefully help people I think that's real success is when you you get the memo you're like okay I was the the role was musician to get me to this place but then the real work starts yeah now and I think that's real success when you recognize that and you're like okay I can still do the music and I can speak my truth, but if I can help people, then we've really come a long way. And do you think that's about authenticity as well,

that it takes a while to get the courage to be yourself in public? Yeah, I feel like it's... Initially, when I first started off, it was very much like you want to achieve these goals. You're watching on TV, you're like, oh, I'd love to know what it'd be like to be on the other side of the tv set on top of the pops and you're like wow like and or to travel to a different country but then over the years i've realized that actually there was a

lot of unpacking and unraveling of stuff that once i got to this point you get a real authentic version of me which is still i'm a journeyman I'm still in the mix in 10 years time I'll look back and say wow there was a few things that you missed on some blind spots but I feel like that's the most important if I can do that it just sort of demystifies the kind of this everything's great if you're a musician or everything's great if you're an entertainer or everything's great just in life I think like we're all going through our own things right yeah I want to take you back to writing Seven Days when you were 16 years old in your council flat in Southampton

in your tiny room which was stacked floor to ceiling with 12-inch vinyls. No, you know. Because what I love about that is that I understand because you were living with your mum, you made the lyrics tamer than they might have been. Yes, yes. tell us about that yeah I mean so I was in like a two-bedroom flat on the holy root estate in the block called queen's house and to have been in my bedroom starting the early

lyrics to seven days by the time I'd hit Wednesday and I was thinking about what could we be saying here I was thinking you know what I think making love would be a better way for this to land because my mum was actually the one I played all the music to and my grandma also pretty much raised me with my mum so early doors I was already around a lot of feminine energy, a lot of respect, a lot of like, okay, so I can play this. But the great thing with Seven Days is I kind of feel it's so much cooler that I was saying making love than any vulgar term that I could

have used as a 16-year-old kid. And also it just wouldn't have flown. Like, say that to my grandma, and you'll say that to my mum. She'll go, really? Really? And then let me play it to your dad, see how he feels about that. Let's not play it to dad just yet. Let's play it dad just yet because you're a pretty fast mover in the song you took her for a drink on tuesday and you were making love by wednesday i mean how did your mom feel about that i mean well listen you gotta remember let's reverse back we're back in the council flat

with my mom my mom's like sort of bedroom is like like a stone's throw away over the corridor where I am she knows there's no Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday she knows there's some chilling business going on but she knows that the rest of the week I don't know where you're thinking you're doing all this so it was definitely a young kid who was looking out his bedroom window being very aspirational like you know 16 17 at the time so I guess there's a lot of testosterone kind of like flowing through me I was thinking wow how amazing would this week be but that is so sweet let's keep it real like I was with Chris Martin not recently and he gave like a version that he did at Wembley Stadium and it was much more to

the point I mean it's like he was watching Netflix on a Sunday and his date had gone wrong and he couldn't and she never called him back that's more like it. Because fame came to you after that quite suddenly didn't it more or less overnight when you were 19 and I wonder what that is like one minute you are in your Southampton bedroom and the next minute you are recognized when you walk down the street yeah it was I think that was the kind of the one point at which I kind of recognized something to change when I was going from walking down Southampton High Street which was home to me I'd been working at McDonald's not that long before making a little money and and we'd always kind of meet up around

there's always like a McDonald's was the hot spot to meet up back as a teenager because that's all you could afford to get is a little food and if you took someone out for it for a little meal it's like do you want a happy meal or do you want the um so it was just walking up the high street and then realizing I couldn't walk up the high street again because what was happening it was I don't usually say pandemonium but it was there was more people than I could imagine that were coming up to show love really and but even weirdly enough friends people had gone to school with who were seeing me very differently they were sort of I've seen you on tv now I've seen you on on top of the pops and it

was almost like the conversation wasn't like as if we were here grounded in this moment it was like I see you as the guy on the TV now. And so I couldn't go out, and I found like I was sort of starting to go back into my own little world. And it was kind of a shame on one hand because Slamton was like, I wanted to walk the high street. I did it one time.

I went back like a year, a couple years back after it all gone off with Rewind to fill me in. And I thought, I'm going to go to the HMV. I'm just going to walk into the top man and see what goes on. I learned very quickly about walking into the top man and HMV of how that didn't last for that long too much love and I see it as love not something to look at and say oh that was a it was just like everyone wants to show love and I was like I haven't got enough to give back um and I also want to like that jacket they had in Top Man and I can't get that one. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy.

So because of the suddenness of that fame, did you feel like an imposter in it sometimes? I think the zero to 100 thing that happened so quickly was quite difficult to process at the time because it had gone from working in McDonald's, which by the way, it had its perks in McDonald's. You know when they had those little tokens where you'd go and get like a free big mac or yes so they never gave me like a badge with any stars they were like you're not going to be on the front you're going to be in the back like cleaning

out the mustard and the tomato sauce and stuff but i could see a huge mountain of those little tokens oh robin hood and me is the one redistributing them back out into, oh, I was the guy back in the day. So it was a great time at McDonald's. But I would say that going so fast from that to being in the clubs DJing, to the next thing being on a show like Top of the Pops, next thing performing at three nights at Wembley Arena, and I'm standing on stage with my band,

and I'm seeing people going crazy, and I'm just thinking, this must be for someone else. So early doors were starting to take on this imposter syndrome of thinking that I don't know, is the bubble going to burst at some point? Is someone going to be like yeah, we found out you're not really, all the success

is just not really the thing. It took a long time for that. I'm talking years for me to process that and start to realise that actually that wasn really the thing. It took a long time for that. I'm talking years for me to process that and start to realize that actually that wasn't the case. But yeah, early doors, it was definitely imposter syndrome. So we're going to talk a bit more about that because your failures are so profound

and I'm so grateful at the time you clearly took to go there. I mean, these are not humble bragging failures. They are genuine things that you have grappled with. But I would love to ask you what the first thing you bought was when you made a load of money. See, when I say it, and I really want to say this,

because it's with heart, and I don't want it to sound like, oh, he's doing the, he got the mum the thing. But the first thing on my agenda was, if I make any money, was to get get my mama home that was that she could call home that she could have a garden um like my grandma who had a garden and we didn't have that in our in our little flat we just had like a little balcony and I wanted her to be able to have her own kitchen a little bit of space and and I think that moment of actually

picking up my mom and like taking her over to this house that she didn't know what she was going to this house for and saying what do you think of it she goes great but why are we here I said mum this is your home and the tears start flooding down the tears flooding from me and I'm just like that for me was the

biggest thing that I could possibly have done at that time because I didn't realise the sacrifices that my mum was making for me growing up always having an extra 20 pound to go and buy a record that I wanted or picking me up from the record store sorry picking up from a club sorry at two o'clock in the morning and she had to go to work at six you only sort of realize those sort of things later on like wow you had that little sleep but yet you still would do that for your son and I thought wow if I could just make you feel happy and feel like this is just a little something for all the things you've sacrificed for me then I'm happy so that was the first big thing she raised an amazing man

I appreciate you tell me about the title of your album 22 and why that number I mean we've talked about it being 22 years since born to do it but it's got another meaning hasn't it yeah it has like a if you're into numerology or angel numbers the symbolism of 22 is a master builder number and it's very much about foundation and being of service and for me very much like as i was saying before recognizing that yes you may be maybe portrayed as being a musician but actually that was just a platform to get you to where you really start to do the work and to be of service. And that doesn't change anything. It just is realizing that actually there's a lot more that I can do

with this voice that I have, as opposed to just making music that heals. And I feel it is very much about healing people. But being here today, I mean, this is a weird juxtaposition for me to like it's not be going into a melody right now but although feel free I knew you'd be like don't worry there's a little sunk in there just I feel like but it's really different and I think that's really important now to and I use the expression of or example of a lotus petal and it's got it's multifaceted there's lots of different petals and if you could express those you you're all still the same flower.

And I think that's kind of where I'm at now, let's express a bit more. And with What's Your Vibe, your book, you open it asking the reader how they're feeling. Do you think it's more important to pay attention to our feelings than our thoughts? 100%. Because it's the subtle, small things that you get in when you say i've

got a gut feeling you feel it right it's like it's here or you walk into a room and you're like something's off here and i don't know why i'm getting that kind of feeling and you can then the mind kicks in i've no but the pie is great stick around man you just come through the door but something in here is saying you know and then you've got to make a choice because the the mind will try and not really trip you up it doesn't doesn't have the intelligence of what your gut or more importantly that your heart has your heart is an intelligent life form moving in of itself we think it's the brain that's in control but it's actually more the heart so you then leave and find out like five minutes later the hugest fight kicks off and you were

like whoa you would have been brawled in the mix of it you had a feeling so i always want to always revert back to how do you feel not how do you think and what's your vibe was about what's the vibe what's the vibration you're feeling here because i think if we can tap into that a bit more it actually is a lot more intelligent, like I said, than the thoughts we have. Because this will be like, it leaves you in limbo land. This is like, if you can honour this, you make a move or you stay, you know.

Final question before we get on to your failures. Does vulnerability come easily to you? Because I believe that it's the source of all great human connection. And it's actually a very courageous act, particularly if you are a man in today's society. And I know you said earlier you were raised by women. So has vulnerability always come naturally

or is it something that you think you've stepped more into the older you've got? I've got to say that I'm so grateful that I grew up around my mum and my grandma predominantly. My dad was always around. My mum and dad split up when I was around eight. But he definitely let me know I had a father there. He picked me up on a Sunday, took me to Poulton's Park. If anyone has been to Poulton's Park, it's fun.

They've got go-karts. It may mean nothing to anyone who's here, but it was a fun, like a Chessington World of Adventures sort of vibe. Keep telling yourself that, Greg. No one's heard of it. Let's leave the horse park, and we'll park that one for a moment. To have been around my mum and grandma, like I said,

it definitely, early doors instilled that. Conversations were a lot more easier. They were empathic. They were able to see how I was feeling again. Like, grandma would know if I was down, and that love and sprinkle she'd put into the food would just instantly make you feel better mum would be able to read me

and be able to like okay he needs a hug here and so that love that's a very feminine energy in being intuitive and being empathic but to be vulnerable was something only years down the line I kind of recognized was really real power and Brene Brown talks so beautifully about that in

the power of vulnerability because your society as far as I could see had told me that no no we're not vulnerable here and especially for men as you said it's like man up and come on just just dig deep and just get through it it's all very alpha very kind of like physical whereas the energy i was getting from my mom and my grandma was very much let's go inside let's actually let's talk about this you need a hug you need some good food you need a smile um and now i've been able to embrace the energies and understand them that now my goods actually speak quite honestly and openly about things because i know that by me being vulnerable we have these kind of conversations which is beautiful oh i love anyone who quotes brunet brown thank you for that your first failure

is your failure to speak up but now being able to so take us on that journey where did that failure to speak up start okay so my first experience of that would have been school is a funny time I think for most kids growing up I mean but middle school was I've got amazing stories from middle school and that was a great time but secondary school I was like an all-boy school and I had a lot of wonderful years there but there was definitely times where I was like there was moments of bullying that I saw that other people were experiencing and then moments which I experienced which would be the getting roughed up in the in the corridor and give me some money and you're just like from an older boy in the in the in the school and you're just like what do I do here

one I didn't speak up for myself but also when I saw other people being bullied that I didn't speak up for them either and it was one of those things that really pains me at that period of time because I didn't really know what to do and I felt like that had sort of exponentially kind of like mirrored back to me later on in my life but But it's definitely started in middle school, sorry, in secondary school, where I was like, yeah, this is not sitting with me, but I don't know what to do about this. And that then unfolds in the way it does.

Years later, you wrote about that time at secondary school in your song Johnny. What were some of the lyrics? I have them written down if you can't remember the key telling me that johnny's hitting me that's why i'm late for school but you never listen um the next lyric on the okay um uh instead you always seem to end up blaming me for things i didn't didn. Things I didn't do for what it's worth. I didn't even want to tell you anything in case it made things worse. Just so you know. Every day I learn a Johnny's hitting me. Hey, Mom and Dad, it hurts.

It's along those kind of... Come on. Come on. Thank you. It was there. I feel like that was beautiful. It's so sad like how i think a lot of people who end up as communicators later in life have some sort of salutary experience of not fitting in at school

or being bullied but at the time it's an incredibly difficult thing to live through so what was that like for you what were you feeling at the time I mean it's it's funny because when I wrote Johnny which was on my Story Goes album I also wanted it to be it was two stories in one so it's my experience of like I said being roughed up or and that bullying continues as being saying you're overweight or being told that you're fat at school because I was I was carrying weight but I don't believe in that terminology it's just I was just a normal kid it was that was what it was but in someone else's eyes they didn't see it as conforming to how they thought being a normal kid was but then there was also the part when I say about telling my mum and

dad and they're not listening and I just want to go on record because I know when I played it to my mum I was like mum this isn't you this isn't my dad this isn't like grandma I know you'd always listen to me but when I talked to other kids who were going through bullying at the time they would say I can't talk to my parents they're not listening to me anyway even if I did tell them so I kind of had two stories in one because I felt for my mum I was like mum I don't want you to feel like all these years later that I'm saying that you didn't listen to me because if anyone could would have listened to it would have been you but I'd say that that moment of trying to process what do you do here do you become the the one who laughs it off and I think for anyone who's experienced bullying

one of the mechanisms or defense mechanisms is just laugh it off and it's like, oh, yeah, it didn't really happen. And, you know, we just keep it moving. The other one is you become super introverted where you don't want to go to school or you just shy away from everything and no one quite understands why you're feeling that way. And the third option,

which kind of always seemed like you can never really do, was like tell the teacher. It was never that easy because to tell the teacher it was never that easy because to tell the teacher felt like it was going to exacerbate the whole thing because they go straight in there like all guns blazing to go and tell the person that's bullying you and then they just double down on the bullying and it wasn't necessarily the physical thing all the time it could be the mental one it could be things they say and I'd seen people who had brothers who had sisters and it'd be like oh yeah I want to do to your sister if you talk to anyone so it's just like

you've got this crazy things you're thinking wow and it may not even stop necessarily at the school gates that's why I talk about Johnny it's like what happens outside when you get on the bus to go home teachers aren't there to help you so that was like wow that third option should be the one but I have to say though now I look at it from this vantage point it actually really was the one in the fact that you have to tell someone and that may not be necessarily a teacher but you have to talk to someone talk to your parents hopefully they are open enough to listen to you or talk to someone that you feel can take what you're saying and deal with it with sensitivity but the talking part is the important part and I think that's where I'm at now when I talk about that instance of bullying and of bullying you do need to call it out because

it's the underneath thing that's where it all goes wrong yeah as hard as that may be did you feel like an outsider I felt like I don't question like why me but then at the same time when you're seeing it happen to other people you're like why me why them why us but then that kind of like I said you quickly kind of start to make stories up and start to become the the joker in the class who's always like you're trying to be overly bubbly and got all the fun antics or you overly sing

and perform that was another thing that I noticed that even though I had I love to sing Boyz II Men, End of the Road that was my tune everyone was skipping the ad-libs I was like no no no we're going to sing them sing it again Craig, sing it again. But it'd also be something that...

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as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. I would lean into if I felt something was going to get funky, I'd become the entertainer because that was one way of just holding it out. And it's interesting because school is usually or just in our early childhood is where things start to get blocked and lodged energetically and traumas start,

that then as an adult, we're here trying to unravel and unpack those things. And unfortunately, the only way to do that, I've experienced, is you have to lean back into that same pain. You've actually got to almost, maybe not physically confront the person who bullied you in this instance,

but you actually have to go there and feel that again and almost be these years later giving yourself a hug and saying I'll listen to you I've got you don't you worry and go there and it actually then dislodges that energy that gets locked in to the body I'm sure there's many many more things I'm still trying to remove. Well, something that you wrote in your email to me was then that sense of bullying never leaving you until you call it out. It played itself out in your adult life when it came to Beau Selector. And for anyone who doesn't know that, I feel dreadful TV programme, it was Lee Francis, the quote-unquote comedian,

routinely making a mockery of certain public figures. And you were the one that bore the brunt of it week after week after week and I think it's phenomenally brave of you to choose to talk about it so first of all thank you for that my pleasure why did you put it into this failure because it felt like it was the way in which universe god whatever you you want to call it higher power saying okay what we're going to do we're going to mirror the same thing that happened at school for you but now in a way that being someone who's in the public eye we're going to just exponentially emphasize that to the whole world of how are you going to handle it this time around and that was the feeling kind of that

I couldn't quite understand why am I feeling the same bullying thing happening all over again I thought that was a period of time in school this is where I say about things getting lodged in the body because it doesn't go anywhere it's just been put under the carpet and it's just that it then gets someone like Lee Francis to pull the wall out from the carpet, and all of a sudden it's back up in the air again. You're like, whoa, okay. I think the most frustrating thing with that series is that it wouldn't be acceptable now.

No. And for me, to have gone through ten years of being ridiculed, it wasn't just the show, was what the aftermath of that show and especially with rewind the song rewind and that line both selected coming from that song it was so steeped in heritage and culture and going out and performing that song and it changing the the landscape of music in this country when the garage scene was so big. And then for that song to then became ridiculed. At first it was like,

how is this happening? How is this song that meant so much? That changed my life, that changed thousands of people's lives who listened to that. But then more importantly, I couldn't understand where the point of bullying was so focused in on me in particular.

And I knew this because the title was one thing, but it was just cheap shots all the time. And there were many people who were being ridiculed. I mean, I talk about... And I had a moment when I was on BBC Breakfast where I broke it down. I felt actually a healing as I was actually saying it publicly to bring it back up again. And I was speaking about Tricia, I was speaking BBC Breakfast, where I broke it down. I felt actually a healing, as I was actually saying it publicly, to bring it back up again.

And I was speaking about Trisha, I was speaking about Mel C. And I wanted to kind of give the full scope of it, that it wasn't just the fact that there was three black people on that show and they were being ridiculed. It was racism, however you look at that. If you're a black face and you rub a mask on and you run it like that, you're being racist.

And I didn't want to make up stories because that's the same victim feeling that I had when I was being bullied at school. So you make excuses like, oh, no, maybe he, you know, maybe he needed that pound that he took from me. Maybe, and furthermore, you know i don't know maybe he needed that that pound that he took for me maybe and furthermore maybe i don't know he he just this is it's a comedian it's just a comedy thing but i was like there's three people that you've done that to so there's clearly it's racism

you've also then continued that and bullied every single one on the show from david beckham when he was trying to find his voice let's not remember let's not forget there was a time when he's been ridiculed about the sound of his voice and he was trying to find his voice and talk all my man did was to literally just like I'm going to trigger you I'm going to go to the point that I know will get you and we're going to go there there's nothing kind of these one sort of hypothetical characters that were kind of these are real people with lives and feelings and it was cheap shot okay so it is that was the premise of the show and I felt like for me I needed to just make him accountable for those things because I think the difference where I

sit today is I don't have the emotional attachment because I've been able to go through the trauma of that bullying and like I said 10 years is a long time to unpack it moving to Miami was I never people said you went to Miami it was the Ferrari and the cars I was like I'm telling myself this story but actually I left because I needed to go and work out why the place that I call home is now feeling like somewhere that I can't walk down the street without someone bullying me. And I kind of felt that it wasn't so personal from the person saying something to me. It was because Lee had normalized it.

He'd made it okay. It's a funny thing. It was banter. It was banter. Yeah. So it was a hard process to go away from a place that was home go to miami go through everything that went on there but to sit here today wow and seeing this audience here today and knowing that i can speak my truth it's a healing

to do this and i hope no one has to go through that in their life like I'm glad that that is time that is could not be accepted now and but at the same time we will talk on it about accountability without emotion I'm not here to be the oppressor now I'm not here to be on the stage and let me no no because that's just the flip of being the bully I'm just saying factually what went down and just to finalise the part with Lee, is that when they talked about the apology it just felt that

this is more than us having tears here. That moment is enough for me to buy as a proper apology. Real apology would be to take accountability is are you actively going into the community and talking to people and learning about black history? Are actively going to the community and talking to people and learning about black history are you going to the bullying

alliance and speaking with people who've been bullied and speaking with them actively because we can all do oh let's get the tears out it just felt a little bit hollow hollow and I hate to say it the timing was just

too in a line with everything that was going on in the world with George Floyd the Black Lives Matters movement the protests around the world and then it was a reaction to that as opposed and furthermore I didn't actually say anything at the time if that was the time to double down on it it would have been like do it now like yeah that's the time to go and I was like I'm not here to do that and this is like a couple of years later now that I've got this I've got the book I'm just talking factually about what went down and I really hope that he does take accountability I have no grudge against him I'm not going to be that guy but it is what it is. I respect you so much for how you have put every element of that and also for the fact that you went away

and rebuilt yourself in so many ways and it actually leads us onto your second failure because you went to Miami and you did rebuild yourself your career your sense of identity I imagine and also your body Craig because we've all seen the Instagram pictures. We've all seen them, but I'm very interested in why you chose this as your second failure, which is your failure to listen to your body, but now you don't need validation, which is a beautiful thing. So tell us about your relationship with your body. Okay, so it's funny how all the same themes are happening if you look back when I said when I was at school it was it was the bullying element but then also at school when when people were

saying I was overweight it very quickly early doors I recognized that I would be the shoulder to cry on for a girl that I might have found quite attractive and I was like we had this beautiful rapport and she she poured her heart out to me and she'd be like, oh, Craig, you know, I don't know why he doesn't like me. And like, he's, I mean, he's like, I don't know, he just became the captain of the school football team. And I'm just thinking, oh, here we go. We're going to go through this whole thing.

He's got the six pack and he's got the full captain of the school football team. And yet you have such an emotional connection with me. You're pouring your heart out to me we're having real relation here but you're not physically attracted and I think early doors I took on this thing of okay then I need to lose weight I need to conform to this notion of what society was portraying to me and that was in school then going into being an artist doing crazy yo-yo diets and crazy things to try and lose weight.

So by the time I'd come out with Fill Me In, then people were just like, we would never have really known what this whole story of you being supposedly overweight. So then that then, years later, well not even years later, it continued to be the thing that I was training training and working out but it's funny though because I had this fascination of if I get the six pack maybe then I'll be seen and man did we get the six pack I think I had a 10 pack the way I was going on in

Miami but on one hand I can look back and say wow like I could definitely get there I got the thing but even when I got the the crazy pack that wasn't what I wanted to be seen. I got the thing. But even when I got the crazy pack, that wasn't what I wanted to be seen for. I just wanted to be seen for the young kid that was at school who was the shoulder to cry on and wanted to have a real relationship. It was never the physical. But Miami made me go 10 times over

trying to conform again to the Miami South Beach and everyone's got their topless and they're doing things. That definitely drew me in. But funny enough, when we talk about the start of the book, which I opened with, it actually was something that coincided with the time when Bo Selector came out. So that's interesting that even the body,

the physical part of the body that happened years later on, where I don't want to jump in because I know you might want to go there with the actual question actually happened at the same time so yeah physically I felt like I've been through a bit of a the hamster wheel of like wow yes we can drop our body fat down to 3.5 if I take it any further than this we're gonna maybe find ourself in calling 999 and this guy yeah it sounds like you both wanted to be seen and disguise yourself which is a difficult contradiction to live with in your physical form i wonder i asked this question of a lot of female identifying pop stars and public figures as to whether they felt under pressure from the industry to look a certain way

but i wonder if you ever felt that or if a record label ever from the industry to look a certain way. But I wonder if you ever felt that or if a record label ever said you have to look this way. Do you know what? It's funny that they, I never was, early doors I've had an amazing manager called Colin Lester who's been with me for like 22 years now. And I've got so much love for him.

He's always held space for me. And I remember when he told my grandma when God rest her soul he was like no I can't promise your your your grandson success but I will definitely do everything I possibly can to protect him and make sure he's got the best chance to do what he's going to do and that saying that's my grandma early doors really made her calm and she was like I can breathe now I feel okay but I'd say that when I got into the music industry I was already under the illusion that I had to keep this

pretense up just because of what I'd experienced outside of this I remember vividly walking past the just after I kind of finished at McDonald's and it wasn't really because of McDonald's the the eating a lot of food I was I was quite cautious about my eating there, even though I would say if you want to take the spatula of the fries with the tray over for your, just like your normal sort of meal, spray it across the tray, it's definitely an up if anyone's working for McDonald's and you want to get the in.

Definitely, yeah, because then they give you a regular meal. But if you want extra fries, you can, you know what I mean? Yum. Sorry, we digress but the it it definitely was more me than it was the the industry enforcing that on me but i've have seen how society does still adopt that and running up to more real time it's great because we did the who you are video more recently and I've had two amazing editors one a structural editor called Julia Kelleway and a lovely editor called Julian Stern and both of them two amazing women who made me look and look at myself when I was sending manuscripts in and they'd be like you is that really how you're feeling and just just mirroring

me enough to go deeper. But when it came to the Who You Are video, it's funny because Jillian said, so what, are you going to go for a six foot tall blonde model for the video? What's the move here? And I could see it was a bit of a trick question. And I was like, Jillian, you know me now, right?

You know me. That actually, where I'm at, I'm wearing my heart on my sleeve. And this whole portrayal that I have to check myself and not double down with this is the look that only can work for I was like no no we've got to get this real I got I've got to look back and change the way that I've seen music videos and I've seen the way I talk about women because you can't I now see that there was moments where I was objectifying and I've seen the way I talk about women because you can't I now see that there was moments where I was objectifying and I needed to kind of like really is that how it is or I was going for a certain look for the video is that really how it is and now I feel like I'm

I'm much more aware of of society do you feel secure in your body now I do because when my body, when you get certain pains in your body, certain, you have to have a different relationship with your body. I had experience where it kind of led into incredible depression for me with my body. With your back? With my back, which is, like I said, it kind of touched at a point where early doors were niggles I'd have when around the ghost at the time I was training, but there was something when they say that you're carrying the weight on your shoulders or especially even the kind of the throwaway lines, have you got a bit of a dodgy back? Those kinds of things. Yeah. I have a totally, you know what I'm saying? Bless you.

Bless you. No, cause it's like, do you know what I mean? You knew I could feel it, but genuinely like that kind of sneeze when you've got back pain. Agony, yeah. Oh, my. So my experience was that I walked out at Good Morning America in America, and I could feel pain prior to going on stage. I was about to sing I Know You, the song I had with Bastille. It was at Times Square, big, big TV.

And I remember walking out on stage, I stepped up onto the stage, and I felt a pain that I cannot quite describe. Like, I know my body well, and I think we all know our bodies well, right? We're very much encased in it, we know an ache, we know, oh, that was painful, that was acute. bodies were all right we're very much encased in it we know an ache we know oh that was a painful that was acute this however was something that I had never felt in my whole 35 years of being on this planet I was like whoa and I still had to be able to perform so through gritted teeth I'm singing this song and I'm like I feel like I put my imagine having toothache but in your back but it's not it's not

giving up so it's like it's just it was like having nerve pain and nerve pain for anyone who's going it's gone through sciatica or has any sort of nerve oh my gosh it's literally like give me something to take right now or I have to dip out of this and I use the word dip out in the book because I had some very dark thoughts after that performance where it just wouldn't let up I'd had all these different MRIs I'd seen all these doctors had injections had facet injections had it just wasn't easing up and I was like if this continues yeah I may have to dip out and those words dip out I never wanted to but people would say that,

what you were thinking about committing suicide, you were thinking about, if that pain had continued, I don't know where I would be. And it was the first time I had to have a real relationship with my body where I had to start to really recognize that we're not two separate entities here. And that my body's been trying to tell me this for a long time and I need to slow down

and I need to actually really come into communion with my body and understand what this is and i'm so grateful to sit here today that's why you see like the cushions behind me yeah i'm not playing with this like like it's no games like i do you know i mean oh yeah you're good no no no no we're not i still have problems in that lower back but thankfully the nerve part of it is kind of subsided which is i'm grateful for and you said to me that you now no longer need validation tell me guru craig tell me how to get to that point because i think especially in this age of social media everyone here will relate to that need for outside approval and that sense and i know you're you're a recovering people pleaser as well that sense of outsourcing your sense of self to other people's opinions of you

how have you got to the stage now where you don't need that exterior validation do you know what i'd say that i'm work in progress i think if anyone that actually and even if i've said it in the book and haven't landed it properly saying that I don't need validation from anyone I think everyone would be like you're BSing there it's work in progress it's something that you want to be celebrated

for whatever you're doing forget musician you just want to be celebrated as being a human being who's amazing, who's a mother, who's a father who's just done something great at work you want to be seen, you want to be celebrated as being a human being who's amazing, who's a mother, who's a father, who's just done something great at work. You want to be seen. You want to be heard. So there is a little bit of you want to feel something back.

But I feel like I've definitely recognized over the short years I've been on this planet now that the authority figures I was looking for in the world or in my intimate circles of thinking, well, if I get that, then I'm okay. Now I'm okay. That's nonsense. And you know what, if I was going to say, if there's a movie you should watch, if you want to watch it in a slightly different way, is The Wizard of Oz. Watch that movie with the sense that

Dorothy is you. You're there on the yellow brick road and all of the scarecrow, the tin man, the lion are all parts of your parts of you that have been fragmented and you're trying to bring back in and Toto is your intuition

and the wizard at the end is the authority figure, he's a bit of a charlatan, he's just trying to tell you a story watch that movie in that sense and you'll see that actually even though there's a part where the curtain's drawn back and it's like okay there he is we've seen the charlatan now the authority figure's been outed but somehow still can tell you a story still can kind of tell you no no no no you let me give you

academia let me give you the paper to tell you you've got the heart now and you've got the intelligence and you're courageous and it's only when you see and sorry i'm just like i love children's movies because i think they there's so much metaphysics behind them and you love willie wonka don't you love willie wonka yes but a willie wonka don't give me a willie wonkaka. We will be here all night. There'll be a four-hour break it down, right? But to end on Wizard Oz, when notice that there's a part of which Dorothy's about to go off in this balloon back to Kansas. Again, the authority figure telling a bit of a story.

We're going to take you back. I'm the one to save you. I've got you. She wants to go home, right? But if you look at Toto as being her intuition, Toto all the way through, has been that inner voice that's been speaking to her. When Toto jumps out of the balloon

and she has to go and run over to go and get Toto, and then the balloon goes flying off with the wizard, again, her intuition was the thing that was leading her all the way. Craig, this is wild. This is amazing, and I never expected tonight to take this turn. But like, Toto is our intuition.

We need that on a t-shirt right now. Listen, we can go into partnership. We can do the whole thing. David and Day. David and Day merch. Sounds so good. You know what I mean? Just click our little shoes, yeah? Yes.

And notice, don't get it twisted, she could have done that from the start, yeah? She had to go through that whole journey to go and see, do all this, when she could have done that from the beginning. And isn't that a beautiful metaphor of life? That you have to go through the journey and the experience to actually speak on it. That's the thing I'm noticing even here tonight.

How can I speak about bullying if I didn't experience it? How can I speak about bullying if I didn't experience it how can I how can I speak about anything like depression if you don't experience it otherwise it's just very passive and you're sort of giving oh yeah just say the affirmations and you're going to be cool no does not work in affirmations not getting this pain down right now or for me to kind of tell someone that actually to dismiss someone's pain um by the virtue of just being able to watch as an observer it's just not the one and don't you notice as you said earlier and this is why you hold space so beautifully and i will come back to you genuinely now because you know what it's not just i don't want to be like i'll just hyping up genuinely like you're you're giving me the

opportunity to speak my truth in front of this wonderful audience tonight but at the same time it's being able to recognize that that teachers mentors people who actively make a difference in society are people who've actually felt the pain like my manager unfortunately went through cancer not not long ago and he got through it he's he's doing amazing and I said to him I said Colin you can actually speak on cancer now like you can speak with with heart you you know how you can know how it feels when you go back to feeling so you have a different kind of now position to stand from you can actually have different conversations with people and yes maybe we signed up for that right you know to be in this position and you've

signed up for a right to be in this position to do what you're doing that's why you bring the crowds in if I wasn't here there'd be someone else sitting here they're still because of you Elizabeth because they love what you're doing they're like let's not get twisted so give a round of applause for Elizabeth

thank you let it be known you are so lovely Elizabeth would be. So lovely. Thank you. Let it be known. You are so lovely. You're top. Can you just be my guest like every episode from now on? So that I'll be your hype man. I totally agree.

It's like every failure is an opportunity for growth. That's exactly how I feel. We're so on the same wavelength on that. Your final failure, I'm so glad you've chosen it. It's your failure to open your heart. Yeah.

I know. And it's the one thing craig that comes up in every interview i've ever read of yours people are intrigued by your romantic life and you don't speak about it so i'm so i'm grateful to you tell us about your failure to open your heart and your and your journey with that I mean again it goes back to early early times like childhood stuff I remember putting on an under 18s gig with a friend of mine Clinton in Southampton and I went all out it was the same night as a big venue was putting on the same under-18s. I was like 15, I think it was 15, 16 at the time. And I printed out the tickets

and I got them laminated. I did it all proper. You had a laminating machine, didn't you? A laminating machine, had the CD printer. A few years later when I was at college, they were like, why are you always in the library, Craig? You must be really studying. I was like, studying studying I'm just rinsing out all these printer

cartridges and the paper they've got in there I don't know about anything like some mixtapes I need to sell um but it goes back to I'm putting on the show and there was one girl in particular I really wanted to impress and I wasn't sure she was going to come to my my little show that I was putting on and by the way the entertainment for the night happened to be me because it was much cheaper to just pay for yourself, yeah? So I was the DJ and the performer. And the big icon, I think it was called, was the venue in Slampton that was like, I was thinking she's going to go there.

But then she ended up, I hear that she's coming to the show. So she comes to my show. I'm there all dressed up in all white like I'm back in the day Usher, nice and slow. I've got the beanie cap on, the goggles. I'm like the whole thing. I pulled out a rose, a real rose. And at them times,

I wasn't looking to be spending £2.50 on a rose. This has meant something to me. She's there. She comes through. I'm singing my heart. When you take it to a place nice and quiet, there ain't no one here to interrupt, ain't got a rush, I just want to take it nice and slow.

And I'm giving her the rose, and she's smiling, her eyes are like, wow, it's happening. I'm like, I've been so, I've fancied you for so long. Next thing you know, after the show, she's like, oh, like, here's my number remember those times the number is your landline yeah right so you still got to go through like calling up and is it dad's gonna pick up or his mom so now I'm I'm now calling her up and we're speaking for an hour on the phone and it's like wow it's like and she and she was like you know what because can I

go out with you now them can i go out with you now them times again go out with you is like you've literally got married right you're establishing this is legit now she's like yeah so it's a thing now so we had this one week two week kind of like whirlwind seven days almost like you elizabeth Seven days. Almost. Like you, Elizabeth. That was an open goal. So good. We got the happy meal. I showed her about the tray and the whole fries.

She was so happy, yeah? It's like, this guy's so romantic, yeah? Little did I know that it was going to be like two weeks later on, she was going to be a bit weird on the phone and she didn't want to pick up and I didn't really understand what was going on here and I end up going over to her house with a friend of mine who could drive at the time um and I knock on the door and I could hear my mixtape playing in the background I was making mixtapes here so I could hear that play in the back I think oh she's listening to my tune, she's in her feelings.

Little do I know when I knock on the door, I see this figure coming down the stairs in his boxer shorts. I'm like, who's this guy? To your music? To my music. And I put love into that mixtape. The blend was so nice. And he came down the stairs, no fault his own and you know he's being like super hard behind the door alpha like hey what are you here for and i'm like i just want to speak to

and he's doing his thing and we're doing this little dance but between the double glazed windows yeah it's not like everyone's super like like puffing their chest and we've got this massive glass between us i'm just thinking it all went a bit south ultimately nikki had gone back and i said her name but i say in the in the in the book so i don't want to feel like i've out in anyone but i didn't say her surname so because i didn't want it to be something it was we were young yeah it was like one of those situations and we broke up that night there's a song from lsg um laverte sweating and Gill called My Body, it's an instrumental, but the song was, and I wrote over it, I couldn't sleep last night, it didn't feel right, what you done to me baby, oh no, no, no, I couldn't sleep last night, no, it didn't feel right right what you done to me babe I'm in my bedroom right now I can

hear it it's like it's happening again wow that night I think clue in the title I couldn't sleep but I woke up like I had a dream thinking that didn't happen that I didn't break up with her I mean this was my first like real sort of and my heart just closed down I was I was I couldn't understand what I'd done wrong I'd done everything it seemed right and once again all of the compounding issues that I had of oh am I overweight um I'm not the school captain of the football team. I'm not, all these things start to trigger up again. I was like, I've sang my heart out to her and even that didn't even work. So I had to process that

and I think my heart closed down at that point. It was the first time I'd ever cried like over someone. The first time I didn't have the answers to something and it was happening over months. I was like, well well we've only been together about two weeks this is crazy but it's funny when you're a child or when you're a teenager because that then kind of set the tone for the rest of maybe 20 years or so yeah because I think that the relationships that I were having was I could get this protective mechanism kicked in of

never be that vulnerable. And we talked about the power of vulnerability. So I was, and I say this in the book as well, that it pains me to feel that there were some women in my life who really were trying to break down those barriers and really wanted to get to my heart and to know that actually it was okay to let down my guard. But because I had, I i mean the steel gates the whole thing was barricaded that i could never give them that the thing and it pains me and i have a lot of

empathy and i feel sincerely in my heart like i to anyone who tried to get through i just appreciate that you were trying to just really unravel something that had nothing to do with them that you were trying to just really unravel something that had nothing to do with them. But when I sit here today, I sit here with the arms down, the heart is there. I know that I have to lean in to the vulnerability because that's where it all really is.

But also I feel like I've done a lot of the relationship work with myself to know that if I can really understand self-love not from the way in which sometimes it's portrayed but the love to actually do the work and go and do the shadow work and go in and feel that pain again and heal that part go back to that time when you heard the mixtape feel it again to release that opens me up for a relationship opens me back up for love and that really that makes me smile because I feel like it's been a long time coming to have that beautiful I've got so many questions about it so it sounds to me like you when you took the risk to show up as yourself again and again in

different forms with that girl with your singing with your body at school with the bullies with lee francis like that you were slapped down metaphorically so many times for being yourself that you then went through this period of trying to disguise that and now here today you have the courage to show up as yourself and be greeted with love because you're so amazing thank you wow it's such a beautiful thing thank you and we're so grateful that we share like and so really my question is are you single i am and the heart is wide open excellent i've got that the the heart is now inside the tin man yeah the courage of the lion is here the scarecrow i don't know about necessarily

of having a brain but like we're working on that part but yeah i just feel like i'm i'm in a much better place now that i'm not using the same old played out excuse of oh i am a bit busy and music and that was all stories you know they're not big what's your star sign taurus okay taurus taurus i think there's a lady there that's single i mean when you say your ex I'm not sure how this sets up the whole thing but it's funny because the tourist star sign in itself I mean I'm very grounded and very like well I had to get in tune with being grounded but into all of the senses love to kind of like yeah you know I'm saying and I don't want and I want I'm a feel person I'm a very tangible I want to give you the hug.

And, you know, it's like, so I've got so much romance inside of me. Oh my God, you're like, you're extremely eligible, Craig. I want to set you up with several friends. I'm setting myself up nicely here. You've got to do it, do it in front of an audience. Like, do it on such an amazing podcast at the same time. Just put it out there to the ether. Yes, you've got to put it in the universe. Do ether yes you want to put it in the universe you really do have to put in the universe

okay what's your name alex is that good numerology um aries okay alex aries is a great sign we'll come back to you in the q a okay it's's interesting, though, because you do start to see the certain traits and characteristics in certain star signs, if you're into it, that you start to be like... But also, at the same time, the universe is always at play. That's the beautiful thing. It's almost like when you least expect it. That's what I've noticed as well.

When you're looking over there for the thing that you think you want, it's actually a lot closer. It could be literally that moment of serendipity. And I really do believe in that. It happens. And with someone that's been close to you for a long time. Or when you're right, it will reflect back and mirror you in the same way as the failures that have become successes

in a lot of respects. The universe keeps mirroring it in a multiple faceted way of until you get the memo on this. You came here to experience this. You're not doing that well at kind of getting through this. So what I'll do is I'll double down on it for you and I'll give it to you in this way for bullying. Or I'll double down on it and give you pain publicly on a TV that you should be smiling in Times Square having a great time.

We're going to make you sing I Know You, yeah? And then furthermore, you're going to do another song called Magic while you're feeling that pain. It was like the universe was like, I've got to do this. I'll try to tell you 10 years back, little niggle here, niggle there.

You don't want to listen. So, but I get it now. I'm in tune now. And is there a sense that because you've been through this journey and you are now in your 40s which i think is the best decade yet it's a good time it is isn't it but the benjamin button thing going on like like i have oh you i mean you are totally benjamin buttoning this up like i need

to ask you about your skincare regime but off stage um but do you feel fearless or maybe not entirely fearless but do you feel you have less fear because of everything you've been through and everything you've experienced and where you are now? Yeah, very much so. I feel like, as you said, when you hit 40, or whatever age, I mean, age is nothing but a number, but it's that thing of, I didn't sweat the small stuff. I recognised that the things that I made to be the Wizard of Oz,

the authority, the validation, it was all in my head. And once you remove that, you start to just wear your heart on your sleeve and you become empowered in that respect. And I think the more conscious I've become and the more aware of how the way I am showing up affects people around me, that for me has really highlighted

that if I come authentically, people meet me at the same place. If I show up and I speak on it we meet in the same and I think that is the key for all of us here because it's not it's nothing to do with the role to roll I talk about in the book my accountant came over and he's about to tell me probably some bad news about something I pull out one massive chocolate bar can't reach big dairy milk the crazy one right laid it down on the table and there was some lint chocolates as well and all of a sudden he snapped out of being Mr. Accountant I've got to tell you something about your finances to the kid in the candy shop he was back in Woolworths pick and mix I could see him he was like with his mum like can

I have the fudge can I have the for a moment and then as soon as he caught himself he flipped back into oh serious we're back in the god to tell you about your taxes i've got to tell you about your thing and it's interesting that we have this role to role thing that we do like i can be the musician one minute or we can be the author one moment or we can be working here or we can play football here whatever it may be but when you get underneath all of that story we're just all connected we're just all human beings going through the same thing and I think getting more of that out of us yeah makes us feel more connected and I think that's really important oh I love that you're the kind of host who provides Cadbury and Lindint. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got all sides of the spectrum of chocolate there. Across the board.

If you want to feel homely, you need Cadbury's. You want to feel a little bit spicy and saucy. Sophisticated. Yeah, I'll give you the lint. You know what I mean? Probably still out of date like the ones that I had when I was selling them at school from the market store. But let's keep that between us. Take a bite.

No one else will tell. What's so hard? This lint. Great. Craig, David, we are so grateful for you. I am so grateful for you for showing up here in all of your beautiful vulnerability, your courage, your openness, your honesty, your talent.

It has been such a pleasure to share this evening with you. Thank you so, so much for being part of How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. for being part of how to fail thank you thank you thank you thank you wow elizabeth i love you you're amazing thank you so much Oh no, I don't want to steal the line.

Can we take a bow for this? You ready? One, two, three. Three for luck. What's one over there? Just one last one for the people then. What's one for you? Do you know how good it is to be able to do that kind of bow there?

With your back. Oh, yeah, yeah. With your lower back. It's a good feat. Trust me. We hope we haven't put it out. Will you say for some questions? Of course I can. Amazing.

You can't just ask him for his phone number, okay? But if anyone has any questions, there are some roving microphones. I think there's one. If you just put your hands up and I'll try and get to as many of you as possible. I'm coming to you first in the jacket that row Oz is coming with a microphone thank you for being patient and I saw you over there there was yes okay okay oh my gosh two of you over there okay okay so you've had an amazing career and you're now an author congratulations thank you what would you like your next 10 years

to be what do you see for yourself I love that it's funny because I can't really see like further than than this room right now genuinely it just I and I've always kind of said to myself to stay present and stay in this and swim in this this moment because then we get really beautiful moments all the time, every day. If I can say as an overall arcing thing that in 10 years' time, I could make an even more profound difference in people's lives,

not only through the music but also through the way that we connect and we speak and trying to highlight staying conscious because I noticed that when I do zoom calls sometimes where I'm like are we just firing off information at each other or can we actually have a moment where we can actually speak and I say what's in the background you got over there and they're like oh yeah that's the gave it to me it's like a little thing someone gave it to me like back in

the day they tell you a story then you get an anecdote then you're like oh wow we're connecting I want to connect because if I can do that then i think that we can have like just a much more connected society that's like doesn't feel fragmented and we're all much we're a lot more like each other than we'd like to think you know i mean that's music to alex the aries's yeah yeah yeah she's all about connecting with you of course thank you i'm also someone who doesn't have five-year plans anymore i much prefer to be guided by toto my intuition yes when things arise totally yeah totally intuition is going to be the new one you're going to watch that movie differently promise you okay i'm going to come over here there's a yes there are two there that

i can see there's a woman in an apoochie inspired top who we're going to come to first and then we'll come to you afterwards yes thank you okay i should just say while we're waiting for the microphone to get there that there are people in this audience who have been brought together by the power of your music rachel carter i hope it's not embarrassing to call you out but you dm'd me on instagram and you met your partner because you bonded over a Craig David song in Shepherd's Bush. Yes. That is everything.

Isn't that beautiful, talking about connection? I just can't, I never can take that for granted. I still feel like the kid who wrote the song and wanted to share something i was feeling little did i know that it would be something that connects two people that there's no number one there's no accolade that someone can give you than that that's that's the whole point so i hope everything's like continues to just grow together and you get to hear some new music together and just vibing thank you craig okay coming to you hi craig hey how are you hi I'm a lecturer so I sort of picked up on a few of your

themes thinking as an educator picking up on themes of sort of young people and these you know ways we think you need to increase your resilience and I'm just thinking obviously we've got obviously schools and universities and institutions thinking you know you need to learn to cope with this better how are you going to increase your resilience I just wondered what are your thoughts on that and whether you know you agree with that onus being put on the young person to you know increase their ways of coping with with this or how much you think it's society and they need to change I mean I feel like with society it's funny because

if you don't bring it down to the minutia to a smaller kind of micro part it feels like it's society and it kind of becomes very wafty and it never really kind of changes I have to say that it's always going to be through communication and through relationship

and being able to speak our truth. I think that's where the social media and the way in which the internet came around has given people a voice to be able to just speak outwardly and not really worry about what's coming back. I do feel like the resilience thing feels to me very much similar to like the man up and kind of work through it and no I'm not doing that anymore that's some old school patriarchal system that we

need to flip it into a matriarchal place which is being more empathic more sensitive listening that's the key I think actually of all this for all this. For me, it's to listen. Because I haven't really got the answers. I'm just like someone who's on the journey as much as everyone else. But it's to listen to what you're saying and recognize that there is something that needs to be done.

And what can I do to show up? And I think, as a man, that's something that I find is really important to me. I need to listen. In particular, to empower women, especially in particular because this empathy and intuition is a feminine energy.

And that's something that men have not nailed. That's why we are where we are right now. And I'm not bashing men. I'm one myself. I am one. But to listen. Yeah. That's why I feel like I have a really good group of women around me

who, when they talk, I listen to what they're saying. I was with Davina McCall recently. And we were on Radio 2. And she was talking about menopause. And something that I was like, this is not not fascinating but more of this is something that needs to be normalized yeah it's what's fascinating is that we don't know about it in the way that we should it should just be a an everyday thing that we've talked about for millennia absolutely and i can only speak on it from a point of now wanting to know okay where can I show up in

this because I was and I spoke to my mum about this and she'll be okay I was like I said mum like I could see a change in a period of time with you that was different sorry we digress from the question but I just it's love genuinely because I feel it's still we're still it's love, genuinely, because I feel it's still, we're still, it's still this, that I was like, wow, I saw the change in temperament, in the hot flushes, and the way in which she would, one minute be happy, one minute be sad, one minute be very conscious about putting on weight, and everything that Davina was talking about, and then when I went and did some of my own research, and I know that obviously Davina has the book, so you can, for everyone to kind of look at them menopausing is a new book by the way which I I am now engrossed in to understand do you know why because as a as a man if if I don't wise up and understand what's

going on how can I be in a relationship with someone and then those moments happen and I'm not quite sure is it me is it what happened what happened to you is it no no this is actually something that we need to normalize and I think especially men need to wise up to that women know it intrinsically you know and you're just wanting to say can we just make this normal can we actually have the options to do what we're doing so it's just interesting that it's the listening part doubling back to what you're saying i'm i want to listen and learn because if i can help from my side of it i can't actually feel it for for a woman and that's the thing but i can i can hold space and at that point yeah hopefully i can be a voice to other men say let be vulnerable speak up your truth on this speak on these things because other people need it

i think that's a really interesting point, that idea that sometimes individual resilience is used as a sticking plaster for when the culture has to change. And it's sort of about identifying which one is which, like whose responsibility is whose. So thank you for Craig and thank you for that brilliant question. And yes, I'm coming to you. Is it a green top? I was wondering in terms of identity, what is your experience of being mixed race? From someone myself, I'm mixed race. I've got to say that it's one of the most beautiful things to grow up with. My father, being black from Grenada,

having come over at a period of time with the Windrush generation, and now knowing even more of the things he was going through as a black man in the UK at the time that he came over, which pains me when he tells me some of the stories which I didn't really know about till more recently. I knew he's a bass guitarist in a band called Ebony Rockers. And I used to flick through the records as a child and i was like i love these love the songs but i didn't know what he was that he was so stooped in

trying to change the way in which society had been marginalizing ethnic groups the way in which the times were and him trying to make a difference at the time and then my mom being white and the time and then my mum being white and having Jewish heritage and there being the Holocaust that went on with my grandmother and her being a reformed Jew and her stories that she'd tell me about that side of life and also this is kind of I need to give context to this because I'm sort of going in between sort of like race and religion but her going over the Itchen Bridge in Southampton and bombs dropping down in World War II and thinking, wow, this is like unbelievable. These stories of resilience that we talked about then

was different generation like at that time. And I felt like I've kind of been able to pull all of this in to be able to almost like, sort of coin a phrase, but to walk the line, yeah, like down between and represent all of it in a way that's not black and white. It's not any faith, backs and forwards. It's like, I'm going to find the middle ground

for all of this and bring it together because I feel like there's a third part that gets missed and I see this in politics so much where it's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth but should we actually be addressing the thing that we actually really need to deal with which is people's lives and livelihoods are we actually addressing something

so I never felt torn between that's why I feel like I've kind of been given this opportunity to speak my truth that will hopefully make the difference in some way. Because it brings people together rather than... We have to have that. Otherwise, we're just playing out the same game

that we've played out for years on end. It's me against you. That's the old patriarchal system. It's conquer and divide. It's like there's a middle part of this which is the third part which i really feel is where we're entering into where people are starting to open up and talk but also for me someone who is mixed-raced i feel that's a real privilege to be in that situation to talk on these things so let me ask you this would you

ever go into politics you know it's funny because i was asked this the other day yeah because oh i hate it when other people know but they didn't ask you like you asked it and there's it they it was like more in sort of jest but i know you sort of there's the underlining tone of see the thing with politics that i've seen is that the actual the foundation that the premise of it that seems slightly flawed to me that it's parties against parties like it doesn't matter if you're conservative liberal, Labour there's all ideologies as to what you're fighting for but what is the

change that's going to make the change in people's lives and I actually feel that it's more than actually and most of the stuff happens behind the doors of Parliament anyway like we watch those debates going out but most of the things are being done like behind closed doors anyway um but it's more about us speaking our truth because i think as people we kind of forget that we're the ones in power we're the

ones that we go out there and make the vote and do the thing but we just have to be conscious enough to not be swayed by things that the propaganda that you can have out there and the false promises and all the things and i think i feel there's a change in the world that people are shifting up and becoming and realizing that actually this is all starting to become nonsense right now we were promised this but didn't get the thing but then that side said they were going to do the thing but we went there and then they didn't do it either and then we start to say okay let's become more empowered as as human beings ourself and speak our truth and actually then make a difference and i think that's okay yeah to say to go into politics i think my songs transcend the politics part where everyone's getting heady i'm giving you a feeling

when you speak your truth i feel you elizabeth. Like, genuinely, when you speak, I feel it. It's not a heady thing of, let me work it out. It's like, I can tell when you mean something, or if someone's gone into autopilot and they're just talking from their head. And I think we're all starting to level up now, and the more we do that, the more we'll instill change ourselves,

as opposed to looking for the Wizard of oz in politics or in anyone else to kind of work it all out for us we know what we need and we need to just come together and do i'm never going to watch the wizard of oz in the same way again okay who else would like to ask a question oh my gosh there are so many questions okay i'm going to come to you in the cap yes yo what's going on craig david i'm good, my man. How are you? Yes, I love that intro. You inspire me a lot. You inspire me a lot. Thank you, man. I am a mental health survivor, and my name

is AJ Cerny. I'm a spoke word artist, I'm a poet, I'm a rapper. And my question is to you, can I perform my spoke word piece to you and to your audience about mental health awareness? Yes, you can. You come up on the stage, my man. Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Firstly, I give you respect the fact that you spoke your heart. You were courageous to do it. And we're not going to press you, my man. Like, you've got the minute, yeah? Don't feel you're under pressure now. Take your time. Do your minute, Tink. I'm going to step to, my man. You've got the minute, yeah? Don't feel you're under pressure now. Take your time. Do your minuting.

I'm going to step to the side. Yo, yo. Depression, anxiety, loneliness, intimidation, intimidation, direction, location, location, unity, community, disability, ability, pain to the purpose, pallet to my brain, to my heart, to my soul, social media, addiction, I had to go through depression, attacks, I had to go through loneliness, times, I had to go through the panics and the rubbies and darkness around me these are some words describing anxiety purpose of a painting painting naming gaming abusing left and right center i've

been through my depression sensor i've been from my anxiety center i've been through my corridor doors hospital ships are sinking just how my titanic was sinking i got diagnosed with autumn in 2015 i got sectioned in 2017. Purpose, help the poor, help the needy. Birth, death, old age, disease, nature, hope, praying. The gods and angels are blessing me through together. We're going to walk it, talk it, heal it through together. If you've got a disability, purpose.

God has believed me so much in my life and Craig David has inspired me so much in my life because of mental health awareness. Remember, you're not alone too. Woo! helpful awareness you remember you're not alone too make some make some noise up inside of you what's your name again my stage name is aj sony aj sony yeah a-j- s-o-n-i and where can people find they can find you on Instagram real AJ Sony says re 8l AJ s-o-n-i and I'm on tik tok as well yes love appreciate you. Thank you so much. That's real courage right there,

for you to come up on stage, to say what you just said. Well done, that was amazing. It's those moments that I live for, because you came up, you did what you needed to do. You can literally say you performed with Craig David. Yeah. That's so cool.

But the fact is, I heard you saying that you do a section in 2015, you said, right? 2017. Bro, and to see you here, 2022, like performing to the crowd, getting that much love.

Come on. Yeah. Amazing. That's the power of Craig David. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm so proud of you. What an amazing thing to share with us. Thank you. I'm going to come over here and then I'm going to come back to you in the front row. So, yes, there is someone whose hand is being held up by her two friends.

So, yeah. Hi, Craig. Hi, how are you? Your first album was the first album I ever bought on tape and I used to listen to it every morning before school. What's your favourite song from that album and please could you sing a little bit? I feel like I should sing next, I'm kidding.

No one wants that. No one wants that. Wow, Want To Do It was the one. Okay, so I think it would be Fill Me In. Yes. Which is because... Okay, so you want a little piece of the Fill Me In? Yes!

I was checking this girl next door When her parents went out She phoned, said, Hey, boy, come on right around so when i got the door you were standing with a bottle of red wine ready to pour just in long black satin laced to the floor so i went in then we sat down started saying told me about jacuzzi sounded interesting so we jumped right in all calls diverted to answer phone Please leave a message after the tone I mean, me and her parents were kind of cool

But they were the fine line between me and you We were just doing things young people in love do Parents trying to find out what we were up to Saying, why were you creeping around late last night? Why could I see two shadows moving in your bedroom? Like now you're dressed in black when I left you were dressed in a way. Can you fill me in? Oh, yeah Cause diverted to answer phone red wine bottle half the contents gone

Midnight return jacuzzi turned on Can you fill me in, baby? That was amazing! Thank you, thank you, thank you. My pleasure. It was like a dream I never knew I had just came true. Thank you so much for asking that question. Oh, heaven.

Okay, I'm going to you in the front row. And then if there's anyone on the sides, I'm just aware I haven't asked you. So yes, this gentleman in the front row. First of all, I just want to say thank you so much, Craig, for being such a huge inspiration to my life. Like throughout my whole journey of like mum being a single parent i was literally raised by your music my mum never used to let me buy like um parents would anything with a parent's advisory

sticker so yours was the only one on that chart yo so appreciate that thank you brother um also you don't know this but a couple of years ago you signed a shirt for a friend of mine and on there it said to lawrence law keep following your intuition and keep the vibes positive kind regards craig david and my wife got it framed it's like in my office it's like the shrine right so i'm a massive fan but so you really are inspiration and i want to thank you for that i really do appreciate you thank you how do you find genuine friends that care in the mess of fame? And also, who is going to be inspiring you moving forward on this next part of your journey now that you seem to have got a lot more conviction in yourself?

And we're all proud of you for that because it must have been a very challenging journey. How do you find friends and where do you seek inspiration from this point? Wow, do you want to have your own podcast? Because was amazing I wish I'd asked that question what's your name Thor Thor firstly love the vibe love the energy so eloquent the way that you asked the question nah like we're mirroring each other see how we're meeting each other at the same, do you know what I mean? In terms of friendships, I feel like, again,

my intuition is really guiding me. My inner voice is always kind of leaning me into, especially in this last year or so. I mean, not even last year, not even last year, last few months, I feel new relationships opening up. And I feel like my friendships,

the ones that needed to be nurtured, and I touch on this in the book about gardening, I use it as a metaphor of like you can overwater a plant or you can underwater a plant, and either way you can kill the plant without knowing the actual plant really well and actually having a relationship. And that metaphor really did something for me of like,

okay, there's certain relationships and friendships that I need to show up more and nurture it because I want these people in my life and then there's others where I was like you know what maybe it's time to let these these times go you know and I think I've become much more intuitive about the close circle of people and I think we always tend to go back to it's you can count your friends on on one hand you know the real friends but I also going forward as you said about inspiration I'm inspired by this my man I'm inspired by you being able to take the microphone be able to make such a beautiful compliment about something that I did which reflects back to me like you know what when I wrote that it it touched you in

a way that you made you put it on a frame and put it on the wall. I mean, I'm honored that you would do that. But then to be here today and ask that question, genuinely from my heart, I'm inspired by you. I'm inspired by this. I'm inspired by the questions you asked earlier. I'm inspired when you say sing one of the songs because it was an album that touched you how can you not be inspired I mean I'm like I'm really grateful I'm grateful because I'm seeing that actually for any of this to land it lands with the connection

with yourself and with the people that actually hear this music you know I was doing album signings and book signings and I was like I'd rather not rush I'd rather not do the album signing if I'm not going to actually hear your story tell me the thing give me a big hug and make you feel seen because this is where it lands otherwise what the hell is this whole thing about

what are we doing this for what to sell some copies to sell some like that's the old nonsense that gets pumped into a lot of people like it's a product no no there's human beings here and i just appreciate you man like it's love like genuinely it's great what a beautiful question an exceptionally beautiful answer and what an amazing wife props to you thank you so much for making that happen i think we've got time for maybe two more quick questions because I know Craig has to go. Yes, can we come to this? Are you wearing green?

I think you are and it's very lovely. Hi, hi everyone. I'm Victoria. Hey Victoria, how are you? I'm good. I'm a Virgo, just in case that means anything. Virgo's great. Another earth sign.

You're very grounded. You know that, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I just want to say really quickly that I'm here with my mum and the reason that i listened to your podcast elizabeth is because she said vick i've started listening to this new podcast that you'd be a really great guest on it's called how to fail so yeah we're here together this is a slightly tongue-in-cheek question because this has all been very like highbrow and really really nice but you're obviously very enlightened now and you've been on like this nice spiritual journey is there anything that you look back on over the last

20 years when maybe you're a bit less enlightened where you're like oh man that's a bit embarrassing I wish I didn't do that lovely question or just where you like you cringe a little bit because you're like oh you know I'm so enlightened now I're like, oh, you know, I'm so enlightened now, I wouldn't do that. Do you know what? I mean, it's funny, because when I wrote Rise and Fall, that song was written in the third person when I first did it, and it was very easy to kind of be like, okay, he or she was in a compromising situation, they should have learned.

And my manager said to me, no, you need to put that in the first person. That was the hardest move to say, I've been caught in a comprom situations i should have learned brown my bridges and i've run out of places it gave it a whole nother flip of that song and to lead that into it to keep it tongue-in-cheek as you want back in the day remember when new kids on the block came out and they had the dungarees with the T-shirt and the whole thing and you had to let the button come down with the Timberland boots on, yeah?

Hanging tough, yeah. Hanging tough, yeah. You know when you thought that was a good look to go out and walk up the high street with for a moment? That's when you learn you go up, you turn, you come back and you say, Mum, how did you let me? She said, I don't know. You say you want to wear your heart on't know you you say you want to wear

your heart on your sleeve yeah you want to wear the wow that wasn't the one that was never the one for me like i literally it was the dungaree was one was down walking confidently up the high street like this is a good look well i bare chested not a t-shirt underneath there was a t-shirt underneath okay fine that one would have been a different one and that's why I'm glad that I didn't grow up in a time of snapchat and social media yeah because I've got to say that that generation that period of time to be a kid you you could learn like okay I'm trial and error whereas now I do really feel for kids in particular because everything is instant you haven't got a chance to actually have the failure it's like it's not oh i've made a

mistake i i'm gonna rectify that well the failure is out then everyone knows about it and i think that's interesting with the beauty of your podcast as well is that the how to fail part is actually happening real time and exponentially happening for people like that. And that's hard to deal with in and of itself. So, yeah, sorry. We took it there. We went to New Kids on the Block. We did a little dungaree thing.

We went on a journey. We went on a journey. We went on a beautiful journey. Thank you both of you so much. Appreciate you. Last question. Okay. Thank you. Hi. Hello hello how are you um michelle it's a pleasure to meet you nice to meet michelle um star sign michelle leo oh great leo taurus

buttheads yeah thank you um i obviously bought your book on my way in with the signature so thank you for that thank you i know you have to run out but um I guess a question for you is you mentioned and not to like make the mood a bit more a bit more down but um working with your shadow and like bringing those things to light what was the darkest shadow that you had to really bring to light to come to who you are now thank you thank you I mean because I'd always used to reframe anything that was negative to make it positive I was like we do the affirmations and we the law of attraction we've got to change the energy and we've got to keep it positive and I have to say that really as we touched on earlier on the the period of time through both selector and that bullying

the back going for me spiraled me into a place where things just became really dark and i'd say very dimly lit where i couldn't see the good in anything that was going on i couldn't understand that on one hand the career seemed to be showing up really well and we're ticking lots of boxes. You've got the car, it seems like, and you're living in Miami and you've just come back from Times Square, right? But I was going, heading crash course into the ground

and it's a strange place because when you hit there, you're trying to find an out, but you're not really recognizing that you actually need to surrender to that and I think it was that reframing I use the the metaphor analogy of having a magnet and you can keep shaving off a part of the magnet thinking that like I can reframe it but actually the magnet's a magnet like you can keep saying it's negative negative you can keep shaving shaving shaving it's always going to be positive and negative in life. That's how this human experience is.

And I've just realised that to come through the other side of it, and I genuinely hope that I've got enough practices and tools that I talk about in the book, that I never go there again. But it is a constant thing with mental health of servicing it and keeping it on top of it, because little things can trigger you that you didn't know, like a little sly one that you just didn't,

you thought, I thought I dealt with that one and it rears its ugly head up again. But I think the difference this time around, rather than kind of shying away from it, I'll lean into it a bit more when we talked about shadow work. It's hard. Like the hardest thing is to lean into the thing

that you most fear. but as Brene Brown says so beautifully is that's the power of of courage is in that moment because when you do it's like the David and Goliath moment you conquer it and it has doesn't have that power over you you take it out from being here and you put it I can see you for what what it is now you're just uh eckhart tolle would do it more eloquently or thought form you're just there yeah i'd say it's just like we just need to name it claim it yes then you know it's not it's not real and then it just diminishes into into something that you can then kind of get through fear can so often be another word for an opportunity for growth, can't it?

Craig David, I had sky-high expectations before coming here tonight, and you have exceeded every single one with your grace, your eloquence, your kindness. You're an inspiration to all of us here, and I cannot thank you enough for coming on How to Fail. Craig David, everyone. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you

could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.