How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - 🎤 How To Fail LIVE: Sophie Ellis-Bextor on surviving ladette culture, toxic relationships and finding a room of her own

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

All this week, I'll be dropping the recordings of our How To Fail live shows, held at Shoredtich Town Hall earlier this year.Today it's the turn of the very lovely Sophie Ellis-Bextor. The kitchen disco queen joins us to talk about being dropped by her record label, being rubbish at drawing and the challenges of juggling all the different aspects of her life (tbf she does have five children). Along the way, we discover she used to have a thriving black market enterprise selling Blue Peter badges in the playground - the SHOCK!--This episode was recorded live at Shoreditch Town Hall on 7th October 2022 and sponsored by Beija London https://beija.london/--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Sophie Ellis-Bextor @sophieEB Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger, because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better.

I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. This extra special live episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Beja London. Women know that a great bra you love has the power to positively impact the way you feel. Beja London's number one goal is to make women feel amazing in their underwear, as they are, because you alone are enough. I'm the proud owner of several Beja London bras, and whenever I wear one, they make me feel held and empowered, and they look great too. Beja makes perfectly simple and elegant, supportive bras with considered design

for the needs of the cup size from AA to H. Beja is also women-owned, consisting of a team of six females who thrive off making other women smile when they look in the mirror, and we're very glad they do. Beja are generously gifting you, the live How to Fail audience,

an exclusive discount on their amazing bra collection. For this month only, How to Fail live guests will receive 50% off. Yes, 5-0. You should have received a card from the founders as you came in this evening with a QR code leading you directly to the website. Enjoy, and thank you so much to Beja London. website. Enjoy, and thank you so much to Beja London. My guest tonight is a double platinum selling singing queen who kept us dancing through the pandemic lockdowns with weekly discos streamed live from her kitchen. She started out as the lead singer of indie band The Audience at the age of 17. After they split, she was catapulted into the mainstream with the joyous summer hit If This Ain't Love with Groove Jet. It was to be her first number one and famously kept Victoria

Beckham off the top spot in the year 2000. 22 years on and Sophie Ellis Baxter has released six studio and two compilation albums, written a memoir and launched her own podcast where she interviews working mothers called, aptly enough, Spinning Plates. Given that she herself is the mother of five boys ranging in age from 18 to three, it's safe to say she knows what she's talking about. Oh, and in 2021,

she found the time to do a 24-hour kitchen disco dance-a-thon which raised over a million pounds for children in need. Of success, Ellis Baxter says, I tasted huge success with my first album, and when it's happening, it feels like a rollercoaster you can't get off. You should be very careful about wishing for success on that scale. But of course, as we all know, she's here tonight to talk about failure, and we can't wait to hear what she has to say about it.

Shoreditch Town Hall, please give the biggest round of applause for our very own Dancing Queen, the brilliant Sophie Ellis-Bexter. Hello. Welcome. Thank you. My sartorial twin. Hello. Is this the meeting for women wearing silver boots and black... You've come to the right place.

Just wanted to check. I have to say, we didn't plan this. It's quite extraordinary, though, isn't it? I know. If you're listening to the podcast at home, we are both wearing silver boots and black velvet dresses. I've gone for a tartier interpretation. And I love it.

And I'm turned on by it. I've gone for like the Jane Eyre version. You look gorgeous. What's quite funny as well is I'm not really like a silver boot kind of gal. Me neither. My first pair. Really? Me too.

And I was like, I have to wear them and tonight is the night yes we thought the same thing it's meant to be well we're very glad that those boots have walked you here they have and I am very intrigued by that quote I ended on I don't know if you heard it backstage why should you be careful about wishing for success do you think I think well because if I ever meet anybody that's like someone young who's looking to get into the music industry I always say that bit before you get signed is the really precious bit actually because that's when you've got complete autonomy and you can make mistakes and try things out and as soon as you sign that record deal there's a whole bevy of people who suddenly get very involved and they've all got

opinions so that first bit is really really precious and I kind of had a mixture of both a public thing because I signed a deal but also a private thing because the way my band ended like most people didn't really know about that by the time I did Groovejet it kind of happened very quietly to the public eye because I hadn't realized when it came to researching you how long you've been in this game it doesn't feel like that at all and you don't look like that at all but then to suddenly say why 22 years you've been at this and I think that that's very very impressive because from my perspective you've always stayed true to yourself and yet you've always somehow remained relevant where do you think that comes from do you think that's actually

to do with authenticity that that's the connecting force well firstly I don't know if I 100% agree with that really um yeah suddenly turned news night I love it I know and I'm sitting I put it to you I know um I think actually trying to say relevant is probably one of the worst things you can do if you're trying to be creative because once you start trying to think objectively about what you're doing it's just not going to work very well and certainly if you do the things that make you your heart happy you're likely to more likely to have a happier outcome I think but I think it's actually been even longer I started when I was 16 I started singing and I'm 43 now so it has been a really long time and lots of twists and turns along the way and I remember when I was making my first solo album,

I met with Alex James from Blur to song write with him. And he said this thing that really stuck with me. So this was like in 2001. And he said, nobody's career is a straight trajectory upwards. There's always all these peaks and troughs. And actually it's completely true. And if you remember that,

it does make the troughs that little bit easier to bear because you're not thinking, oh my God, I'm defined by this. Yeah. And you know it will pass. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you're the same age as I am. Another thing we have in common, black velvet, silver boots and 43. There you go. I love my 40s. How are you finding yours? Yeah, I really like it as well, actually. I wasn't really sure what to expect because I really loved my 30s so much. And I always had a clear idea of what 30s would be like and that sounds odd but I always thought I'd enjoy them 40s was a bit of a question mark but actually I think 40s is great and I'm really trying to embrace being even more unapologetic about the things that I want to do and how I want

to spend my time and all that sort of stuff I think I've been a people pleaser for far too long so 40s should be let's put an end to that shall we yes and with that I'm off that's so interesting though because I think we've been on a similar journey I really yes so for me when I realized my people pleasing had to stop was when I got divorced from my ex-husband and at that stage you realize that there are going to be people who will never understand why you made that decision or what happened and you have to be totally content holding your own truth and understanding that the people who matter are the ones who will get it that sounds very wise but it's a great baptism

for someone who always outsourced her sense of self to other people's opinions, I had to get comfortable very quickly with the fact that some people had very negative opinions of me, including my ex. But did you have a moment where you suddenly thought, actually, this people-pleasing can't continue? Well, actually, in some ways, I was thinking that what you did is quite, you almost had this big baptism of it. You just pulled completely the rug out from under you and had to announce like everybody had to know that that was happening I don't think I've had quite the same sort of dramatic moment I think it's more a series of little things really and just trying to recognize in myself the things I've been doing to make other people happy which to be honest as well there's a bit of narcissism in that sometimes isn't there because actually

you don't know if they are that bothered about whether you shut that thing or you go that extra mile that you know you might be giving yourself a much bigger role in their life than you really play so I think it's just experimenting with well what happens if I actually do what I feel like I want to do and then seeing that actually it's fine there's no big ripples it just it's okay but you just feel that bit better very interesting what you say there because I think you're right that there is an element of seeking to control or manage other people's emotions about you which obviously you can't do no and you don't really know what people are thinking about all that anyway you know it's like they're probably not thinking too much at all really I'm guessing you're not a control freak though with five sons correct me if I'm wrong

am I a control freak I can be a little bit actually I think I'm quite a control freak when it comes to being a parent and that there's lots of things that I lots of areas that I would probably say I like having more control of than Richard does so I'll do all the if I'm not working I'll do like all the mornings and all the bedtimes and sometimes I'll think oh you know he's not taking as big a role with that but then I realize that's actually come from me because I really like doing all that stuff and I like being the first person they see in the morning and kind of knowing what's going on in their life in that way I'm not saying he doesn't but just in my head that's how it how it goes about so

so I think I can be a bit of a control freak actually okay well that's interesting that all tracks yeah there were a couple of quotes I wanted to read out do that embarrassing thing that interviews sometimes do of trawling through past interviews. Oh, golly. But these are really good quotes. I've come out with a lot of rubbish, though. No, these are really good and they really spoke to me

and I know that they'll speak to people here. One was about boundaries. It's been my goal to be unapologetic, kind, considerate, but clear with my boundaries. That's one thing I want to ask you about. The other one, I'm too frightened of confrontation, so I will will always tip even if the service has been really shoddy I don't think I've ever felt so seen how as a people pleaser do you navigate boundaries oh well I guess there's two forms of that there's probably a professional side where I actually still kind of get on with

things and I really like coming away from work things feeling like I've been professional and everybody's found it seamless to work with me like that matters to me very much but I think when it comes to more personal things I think that's probably where that's taken hold more and I guess the most significant thing of that was probably when I split up with my ex who wasn't a very nice man and I think that was a very important thing that I did and at the time this is a long time ago now like 20 years ago but it took a lot of strength at the time to make sure that I walked away from that and also never let that happen to me again yeah but yeah the the thing with the waiters and like tipping and stuff that's actually funny you bring that up because I am still like that and if someone's really grumpy

with in service I'll do my best to try and win them over. Like, that becomes a total challenge. However, I've also started to feel like proper middle-aged me. And if something's not been great, I'm now that person who'll say, actually, I think you should know. Like, my mum and I the other day had a Sunday roast, and the Yorkshire puddings, they simply weren't that good. So I made sure they knew.

I just thought, you know, I said, I'm sure, you know, it's important that you know that the Yorkshire puddings just weren't up to scratch. They really weren't. They were rubbish. We all left them. The thing is, they will end up liking you more because there's a respect to that as well. They can see the honesty to it.

They can see you're being true to your Yorkshire pudding self. I hope that's true because the other half of me thinks they're going to spit in it next time, aren't they? I know, it's just a risk you have to take, just in life as in restaurants. You know what, if they're fluffy, so long as they're good Yorkshire Puds, I'll take it. I think it's actually very rare to get a good Yorkshire pudding.

I don't know if I've ever had a really good Yorkshire pudding. I can cook you a good Yorkshire pudding. Can you? Yeah, I really can. Okay, great. I'll definitely sort you out. I don't want to skip over what you just said there about your ex. You wrote about that beautifully in your book.

Because it was a coercively controlling relationship. And I have also been in one of those. And I wonder if it was around the same time where that relationship existed before the language around coercive control did. 100%, yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know what it was. And it's only looking back that I can see it as that. Yeah, I'm very much in agreement with that. Yeah. So how has it been for you processing what you went through in retrospect with the

available language? I think it's actually been really very empowering. And I think that's why when I wrote about it in the book I found it really liberating and it was almost quite a literal scene in my head of seeing sort of 17 18 year old me and kind of going back into the scene and being like it's okay I've got this now because it really it felt brilliant to take something that had been painful on such a private scale but then say how much better I was feeling about everything now on a public one and talk through it, I'm just not scared of that anymore.

It felt really nice. And it did feel a little bit brave, but more so it felt right. How long did it take you after that relationship ended not to feel scared? Well, probably a few years, actually. Yeah. Yeah.

Ditto. The reason I ask you that is because I feel that there will probably be people here who are going through that or have split up with someone and are in that stage of feeling fearful and panicked and confused as to whether they've done the right thing yeah and I always want to say to those people that confusion passes it really does and it's a sort of default narrative that is not good for you that someone has made you feel absolutely you've been diminished you know you've been made to feel that your opinions and your feelings haven't got as much validity and so you have to

build that back up actually and learn to trust people who are just being kind and not wait for the bit where they snap that doesn't always happen has that. Yeah. I've grown to realize that true love is about feeling safe. Yeah, I think that's very true, actually. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. And it sounds so obvious and so simple, but it took me a really long time to learn. Absolutely. I thought for a long time that being in love was all fiery and tempestuous and that passion meant you had these horrible, ugly moments. And the drama was all part of it. And I think actually, probably when I started dating Richard,

I was initially a little bit suspicious of the fact that he didn't go into that gear. I was a bit confused by that because I was so familiar with that happening and being called an idiot and whatever else would happen. But once I learned to trust the newness of what was really happening, I realized, oh my gosh, that person, they never loved me at me at all they can't have done that's not what love looks like thank

you so much talking about that I want to talk about Richard but perhaps I can share something first which is I had exactly the same experience when I met my now husband and he was saying these things to me that I found incredibly unromantic and pedestrian and then I would quote them to my friends and they'd be like oh my gosh what an incredible thing to say what an emotionally evolved man you have and one of those things was he said to me it was on our third date poor poor thing just literally our third date and I was like well where's this going then and he was because I what I was used to was someone shouted like love bombing me saying let's run away to Rio and then letting me down in a very dramatic way and similarly that for me was kind of passion and love yeah and he said well I

don't know but if we walk parallel paths together for a week a month or a lifetime I'll have enjoyed that experience and I was like oh that is lovely how unromantic and now... Oh, wow. Now I look back and I'm like, that's the best thing he could have said. Because it gives you your agency. Like, I had agency there. I could decide. I had an equal role in that relationship and I hadn't had that for so long.

The love bombing you're talking about. Richard didn't even tell me he loved me until we were going out for months, actually. Ditto. Six months. And so when he said it, it was really like, wow. And I could tell that those feelings were there, but it it was like really like wow and I could tell that you know those feelings were there but it just was really powerful to wait yeah well I'm sure when he said it he said

it as a commitment so that's why it took that long tell us a little bit about Richard because I know you got pregnant really quickly so that's so like intimate but it's such a great story yes we'd been going out a whole six weeks when I realised I was pregnant. Wow. I did so many pregnancy tests because I was just incredulous. And then we were together and I said,

I'm going to do another test and I'm just going to see if it is definitely positive. And we started making... That's right, then it's Dan from The Feeling called because he had a technical problem with the computer when they were recording some demos, which actually is exactly the same dynamic of their relationship now like 20 years on and as Richard was on the phone I held up this test and Richard just looked and it went

like this to me like yes and I can finish this phone call and then we just made ourselves like it's like fish and chips or something like fish fingers and chips like oven chips but like completely in a day it's like total zombie sort of doing all the things and then occasionally just laughing. Like this is ridiculous. But yeah, it was quite an intense time. And Richard didn't actually move in until two weeks before Sonny was born.

And then Sonny ended up being born two months early. So we'd only been dating for eight months when we had a baby. So it was all, yeah, it was all quite quick. Yeah. Well, as you you know this podcast is all about how things not going according to plan can somehow turn out better than you ever expected sure has that been your experience it'd be awkward if you said no now it really would

it would be terrible yeah you know this is a place for honesty yeah um oh no it's it's so hard to imagine that that hadn't happened now and I always feel like with Sonny, who's now 18, he's like this sort of embodiment of our early romance. And he was just there. We were like a little family from the get-go. And I really can't imagine it going any other way now. And actually, to his credit, even though we were 24 and Richard never even held a baby at that point,

he really took it in his stride. It was quite impressive. And actually, my mum, who's here tonight, she gave me and him a brilliant bit of advice which was um it might not be the right time it might not be the right man but it's the right baby and that gave us permission to look forward to welcoming our our baby but also still date and still get to know one another which sounds a bit it was a bit green card at times you know that film where they sort of race through their early like romance like so it's a bit like that it times. You know that film where they sort of race through their early romance? So it was a bit like that.

It was like we went on holiday somewhere hot, then we went somewhere cold. It was like, we've done loads. It was a bit stupid. But yeah, when Sonny was there, it was like, oh yeah, there he is. What a beautiful piece of advice from your mother. And seeing as you bring her up... She's good at advice. You know that I'm obsessed with your mother.

And I think, terrifyingly, Janet Ellis also knows that I'm obsessed with her. I can hear her laughing, actually. Where is she? Oh, yeah. Hello. My favourite ever Blue Peter presenter. I am the proud owner of a Blue Peter badge from the Janet Ellis vintage. But Sophie, I discovered something incredibly shocking about you.

Oh. Which is that you used to sell Blue Peter badges in the playground. So I'd like to call you to account on that. Yeah, it's pretty bad. Well, actually, it's an opportunity. Yeah, this was when I was at primary school. So my mum was presenting Blue Peter from when I was four to when I was eight. And so every day on the programme, she had to wear a fresh badge.

So they would be coming home and there was a few accumulating. Sorry, every she had to wear a fresh batch so they would be coming home and there was a few accumulating sorry every day you would wear a fresh repeat every every time you would film the show oh she was supposed to give them back there's two criminals in the room there was a whole market going the apple doesn't fall far from uh yeah my mom was supposed to give them back, but instead she came home, gave them to me, 50p in the playground, a pound if it was with an autograph.

So I'd come up to my mum with those little tiny cards with a picture of her and the little emblem. I'd say, Mum, can you sign some of these? And she'd be like, what are these for? And I'd say, oh, maybe you can sell them back to people. But the worst thing is I never really collected the money because no kid at six has any change on them. So it was a really flawed plan. Yeah. But that's actually a very good deal because with my Blue Peter badge, I got in for free

to Madame Tussauds. Exactly. Which is actually really expensive to get into anyway. I know. I had my eighth birthday there. Yeah. Yeah, we had my birthday party. I swear to God, this like sowed a devilish seed in me because for my eighth birthday, we went to Madden Two Swords and we walked straight in past the queue it was like a very sexy moment for an eight-year-old

before we get onto your failures it would be so remiss of me not to ask you about the kitchen disco which thank you because you got so many of us through really dark times oh and I know you thank me it was fun well you went through your own dark times in lockdown did it help you immeasurably yes absolutely yeah so I mean you know our lockdown was much the same as a lot of other people's lockdown you know it was tense and shouty and sometimes strangely quite nice like a bank holiday and then it'd go back into tension and watching the news and the heaviness and all the numbers going up. So the discos, which we did from the first Friday

of the first lockdown all the way through, they just gave us a really welcome distraction and an amazing community of people who would come round. And I felt such affection for everybody that came over. I can't really describe it. Even now I sort of struggle to put the words in because it was actually very emotional. I cried a lot during those discos. And I just felt this real purity of connection. And also, it was nice to be silly and do something

a bit fun. Yeah, they were kind of magical in amongst all this other stuff that really wasn't. And yeah, we had lots going on. I mean, my lovely stepdad John died in July of 2020. So it was, you know, extraordinary time to be living through, really. I'm so sorry for your loss, and I'm so sorry to Janet. And I'm glad we get to mention his name. Me too, me too. Have you done Desert Island Discs?

No, I haven't. If you could just have one piece of music on your Desert Island, have you thought about what it would be? Just one? I mean, oh yeah, you get seven on Desert Island. You get loads, don't you? Okay desert okay wow you're really mean one of that sorry one piece of music go what you mean just one song oh my one disco a disco a quintessential the one that will get

you dancing every single time if it comes on in a club because let's face it if i was on my own and there's an island with a bit of disco I probably would dance as much. I'd go for Don't Leave Me This Way, the Thelma Houston version. I just adore it. For me, the mark of a good song is if it works the same magic on you every time you hear it. And that one always gets me dancing. Excellent. Have that, please.

Mine would be How Does the Pain Jump Around. That's a fun one. Which also literally gets you jumping. Yeah, I would dance to that. It's also because I can't sing. So when I do karaoke, I do karaoke rap. Do you know all the rap of that? No. Pack it up, pack it in, let me begin.

I do know it, but I don't want you to ask me to do it. If you did that, I would do Let's Get Ready to Rumble by PJ and Duncan. Stop. Because I know the rap of that one, yeah. That's amazing. We so are the same generation. Maybe at the end, we'll do that. Once I've had that.

When everybody's gone. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Let's get onto your failures because your first one touches on something that I mentioned in the introduction and that you brought up, which is that you were dropped by your label with your first band, The Audience. So tell us what happened there. Yeah, that was pretty seismic really. So when I was 16, me and my girlfriends used to go clubbing every Friday night to this place called Pop Scene. It was an indie club. And through that, I met a guy that said, I've got a friend looking for a singer in a band. And I thought, oh, I should probably do that because it'll be a fun thing. At that time, I wasn't looking to be a singer. I just

thought, oh, that'd be a good story to tell my grandkids that I used to be in a band once. And lo and behold, this guy, Billy, that was forming the band, he had really big plans for it, and it was called The Audience. And so between 16 and 18, we did gigs around and started to get record deal offers. So in the same year, I set my A-levels. I turned 18

in April. I signed the record deal in May, set my last A-level in June. And then July just went off on tour. So all my girlfriends were going off to university, and I was having this A-level in June, and then July just went off on tour. So all my girlfriends were going off to university, and I was having this adventure with this indie band, and it just kind of lifted me up and just showed me another way. And it definitely made me realize, oh my gosh, singing is it for me. I found my thing. But at that time, I hadn't really had to question too much what road I was going to go on. It just sort of took me along with it. But then after we did our first album, which didn't chart as highly as the label, it was Mercury,

we're hoping, we got dropped when I was 19. And I just felt completely high and dry. All my girlfriends were still at university. And I just thought, I have really mucked this up. I haven't got the option now of going to uni because in my mind mind I was going to be like the Fonz, like this old, old student if I then went along after that. I didn't have any employable qualifications. All I wanted to do was sing and I thought I've just had the highlight of my career and it's all over and I'm not even 20. So I just felt really like I just screwed everything up, like hugely. I genuinely didn't know which way to turn next so how did you get through that how long did that phase last in reality the whole thing probably only lasted about 18 months including the bit where we were still with the label but it was clear it wasn't really working and all the ideas were drying up and no one knew what to do with

the band but it felt like an eternity because I didn't know what would be at the end of that. And I just felt really, I think, kind of humiliated, but also really blue. And so I'm the sort of person that just needs something, some little project, something going on, just a reason to get out of bed. So I did a few bits and bobs. I started writing a really terrible book, which I tried to find actually when I was writing my autobiography, and quite luckily I couldn't find it because I know it's terrible. And it was a sort of fiction loosely based on a girl who was wanting to sign, you know, sign a record deal as a teenager. I mean,

it was like, and I remember it was very, very middle class. The girl was called Bella. And in the first paragraph, it said something like, Bella was in her bedroom with the designers guild fabric. I was like, I mean, that shows you the quality of the writing. So that started and I couldn't really get anywhere with that. And I also started making, weirdly, these little cloth bags, which is a very strange phase I went through. But I think I just like to be crafting. So I got this amazing thread from the haberdashers near my flat and was making things all the time. But the reality was the money was sort of running out and I didn't really have much of a path.

And then I got a phone call from, oh, oh that's right I got scouted at Topshop and so I signed up with a modeling agent Models One so I'd gone castings but I wasn't successful at that either. I mean that sounds like a horrible thing to sign up to when you're grieving something that's gone wrong because now you're being rejected and okay and getting jobs I imagine because you're so beautiful but that's fine but no I was that must be that must be awful being rejected ceaselessly by people who are just judging you on how you look also I felt quite old to be doing that as well to be honest because by that time I think I was 20 and a lot of the models were much younger they were 16 17 18 and I remember at the front of my book,

I had the pictures that were forming my portfolio of modelling. And at the back would be some press articles from my band. So sometimes if they saw it, they'd flick through to the back and go, what's this? And I'd go, oh, yeah, I used to be in a band. And it just felt all a bit sad and a bit like a time gone by, and no one was very interested in that. And I didn't really know how to kickstart that as well I wasn't expecting the band to implode and even when we got dropped I thought

the band itself would stay together the other musicians I didn't really understand that that was the end of that as well so it took me a little while for that penny to drop I think who did you blame if anyone well actually that's interesting you asked that question because I think I blamed lots of people and it was a real pivotal moment in me of deciding to never actually put the blame of something not working on anyone else again actually just to take responsibility there's loads of reasons why things don't work and actually it's kind of amazing and beautiful when things do work out and blaming things is just a fruitless enterprise it just leads to resentment and bitterness and lord knows there are enough bitter musicians out there.

I do not ever want to be one of those. So do you think you made the conscious decision then not to be bitter? Absolutely, I did, yeah. I thought, okay, this has got to be your growing up moment. That had been handed to you on a plate. And if you really want to sing, you'll sing whether it's good times or bad. And you won't blame other people if it doesn't work out. You'll just be responsible for your own thing.

And it was really significant that I made that decision, I think. And we're talking about a very specific time in our culture because we're talking about the 1990s, if I've done my maths correctly. Yeah, yeah. So this is very late 90s, yeah. So what was that experience like? First of all, being a female frontwoman of an indie band in the ladette 90s, and then being a female front woman of an indie band in the ladette 90s and then being a model in the 90s which had a singular kind of body type what was that like

well definitely the bit of being in the band was I look back and I'm actually quite shocked at what the culture was like and the questions I was asked and I think it was a really tough time to be a young woman and I felt like it was sink or swim so the culture at that time was very much it was what they called ladette culture so women trying to be saying they can be like like lads but it wasn't like they just wanted equality you know of options with men it was like they wanted to be able to act like the kind of men I wouldn't want to spend time with either thanks so it was I mean I suppose in it I can see that there was a kernel in it that was significant but how it was

presented was always a bit gross really so it was all about like drinking loads and one night stands but it was almost at the sacrifice of even if that wasn't what you want if you didn't want to do that you were still supposed to do that anyway um so it's quite yeah it did feel quite sink or swim in that regard and i looked back actually at some articles um and some of the questions i was asked you know it's like an 18 19 year old girl about i don't know sexual fantasies or like what would you do if you came home and found your boyfriend in bed with another man or this kind of thing and i just felt a rabbit in headlights for a lot of it but you had to fake that you felt completely cool with

all this and i did never mind thecocks, and it was just horrible, just really like being goaded. But you had to stick it out, because otherwise they'd won. So you had to just be like, yeah, I'll just brave this out until it's over. Otherwise, you didn't get the banter. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd taken yourself too seriously, and you were supposed to be able to hack it and be really cool with all that. And I just felt like I was always faking that, and that all these other amazing women out there were doing brilliantly at it but just i was the fraud will no one rid me of this troublesome priest. This is a time of great foreboding.

These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. medieval from History Hit. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as

we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. what about modeling at a time when the body ideal was this very svelte grungy type of model what was that like for you well to be honest I think I felt more of that judgment more from my singing days really because every time I do photo shoots I felt like people that's the bit I probably underestimated about being in the band, was that as soon as I started singing, it wasn't just about the band or the songs, it was about how I looked, and I just wasn't quite ready for that.

And in fact, the very first article that was written about the band started with this paragraph about me walking into a cafe, and the journalist saying, is she old, is she young, is she ugly, is she beautiful? And it just really rocked me to my core because I thought, I didn't even know they were trying to weigh me up like that. I had no idea. Whereas by the time I got to modelling, which really was only a few months, I think I did it for about four or five months, I was actually in quite a different place than anywhere

because I'd got very controlling because I think I was really a little bit depressed. So I was not really eating that well. And I actually kind of was very, like for me, very unusually thin at that time, actually, because I was, I got really fixated on it because probably because everything else had gone pear-shaped and I didn't really know what else I could do.

And did those experiences teach you, did they teach you then about who you really were? Was there, when you got through it a sense of oh no I had all these people saying these things about me but I know who I am or did it take you much longer to get there it took me bloody ages and I didn't go through half of what you went through I don't know that's hard to answer because I'm not quite I don't know if I really had that much self-awareness like that I do know that that when I got the opportunity to do a Groovejet single with Spiller, I seized that with both hands and I was like,

I'm just going to really appreciate the fact that I've got this song. And it was of huge significance that the song was a house dance track because it just gave me a massive path out away from all the judgment of the indie press, which I felt was very harsh and I'd been so sort of burned by that I just wanted I thought this is great they'll never even know it came out they'll they weren't even right about this they won't be judging it because it's just not even in their remit so that was a big part of what made me want to do that song was like oh this is another island I haven't visited there before and I liked the feel of the song and it was like

let's just see where this takes me it was quite exciting and then when that feel of the song, and it was like, let's just see where this takes me. It was quite exciting. And then when that gave me the opportunity to go solo, I think by then I was like, right, I'm just going to really go for this, and I'm going to do things that work for me, and I'm going to just drink it all in, because this is golden. The fact I have another opportunity is golden. You have a very specific style on stage and in person.

I mean, obviously, you've dressed fantastically tonight. I never see anyone dressed like me like ever I know it's so unique did that did that come naturally or was that a sort of Beyonce moment where she assumes the stage persona of Sasha Fierce were you kind of curating a stage persona that you could step into well in another surprising twist and the differences between me and Beyonce I would say no it was it was all the things I really loved and I think I was very fortunate I fell on my feet with a lot of things all the people I ended up working with for my first ever single literally the makeup artist the woman who did my hair the video director I all I still work with all those women now and they were brilliant at just saying but

what do you want to do? And really listening. And that was just, I just loved it. I mean, I don't understand musicians who don't like making music videos and all that. It's glorious. Like you spend a whole day living out a dream. It's incredible.

These people are working really hard to make it happen. I absolutely love it. Are you grateful for that failure now? Of being dropped by? Definitely. It's been a hugely defining thing that happened to me and yeah it was massive I just felt completely like everything had completely gone pear-shaped and there was no nothing I could think of so everything since then is it also just it gives

you that teflon of you're not afraid of what happens if it all goes away I've I've had that feeling it's awful but you do get the other side of it and obviously I've been lucky I'm only talking about in a professional sense, you know. That's a significant thing too. Are you still in touch with any of the audience? Actually, yeah, I've seen most of them since then. And there's zero hard feelings and they're all nice people. But I think looking back, I can see I was a little bit naive

about the structure of the band. And I sort of believed in it as a real thing at the time. Whereas really, I think Billy, who'd written the songs he'd he called in people musicians to who were like session musicians to form what the band was but there wasn't really a massive foundation there for us to stay together so I understand now why that happened I think it's only at the time I felt a bit wounded by that what were your A-levels in I'm just asking you because no one ever asks no they really don't English history and history of art what about, they really don't. English history and history of art. What about you? Oh my God, stop. No. English history, French and AS history

of art. Okie dokie. That's so funny. That is really funny. But actually, that's a seamless link into your second failure, which is being crap at drawing. Yeah. It's quite left field, this one. Why did you choose it? Well, firstly, I am properly crap at drawing. it's quite left field this one why did you choose it well firstly I am properly crap at drawing it's really annoying I think I plateaued in my started drawing at about I'm going to go 12 13 so if I draw a person they will be front on their hands will be like that their feet will be like out that way I can't really draw and the reason I chose it this I think your podcast is so clever with this because failure is such a defining thing anyway but also this one failure made me realise

that everything I think I've ever done is because the road there has been boxed by all the things I can't do. So if I'd been really good at literally anything else, I'd probably be doing that. So when I pulled the thread of not being able to draw, it was like a jumper, my whole life kind of went to the thread on the floor because I think I'm one of these people where if something doesn't come naturally to me

I'm very unlikely to pursue it yeah and I used to think everybody felt like that but then I realized no people work really hard and they do things like practicing their instruments or whatever else it might be it's just me when I was a kid I always thought there was an instrument that I could pick it up and I was just going to be able to play it like virtuoso yeah I really believed it like one day I will find that instrument and I wrote no that's not literally not how it works yeah but I think that shows you why I never that's how I draw so and so it stayed it plateaued that's like me in sport team sports just be like no I can't do this it's humiliating so I'm going to stop immediately that's very yeah that's very interesting psychology so

did singing come naturally to you from the off yeah I didn't do music at school or anything like that I used to like singing but I didn't I've never studied it I didn't do music GCSE or A-level or anything like that it was just a thing I felt like, oh yeah, this is comfy. And obviously over the time you practice and hone, it does come. But I think if it had taken significant effort, I probably would have got a bit bored and done something else. What do you like with your own children? Do you encourage them to put effort into... The hot topic in our house.

So I treat them the way that I want to be treated. And I think pretty much the way I was brought up actually which is that if they're not that interested or bothered I'll say okay let's leave that and I pursue the things they are naturally curious about which sounds like really wholesome on the surface but really what that means is like for example I've got two of them that do instruments but they don't practice and I'm like well they just don't practice whereas Rich is like no no we're supposed to put that into the structure of their day.

But I think, well, if they were going to do it, they'll just do it, won't they? And that's why it's a hot topic in your house. It is. It's probably like one of the biggest things that we feel differently about. Because actually most of the stuff we feel quite similarly, but that's one that prompts the most sort of conversation, I think yeah I'm aware that your mum is in the audience so it's maybe it's odd for me to be asking you this when I could be asking her but I want to know what you

were like as a child when you were four or five how would you describe yourself oh my goodness does anyone know how to describe himself at four or five well I think I know but I think maybe that's because they were words that were given to me about who I was rather than how I felt myself I mean stubborn was the one that was often used about me liked to read um I mean definitely always creative and I think I was quite social but I was also I know I know only childhood I was eight and I think that does play a part, because it means you spend a lot of time in adult company, sometimes being bored, but other times having to sort of find a way to make conversation or slip in with what's going on.

But I think the specific ages you picked as well, that's literally when my mum and dad were separating and divorcing, so that probably would have made an impact on what kind of four- or five-year-old I was, I don't know. I feel like I do need to ask my mum, was I like absolutely lovely says Janet Ellis black marketeer of blue Peter badges don't give an R to her it's going to be handcuffed and marched off sure we were we were partnered in crime by that stage so oh I do remember reading something that your mum said about you it was in the Sunday Times relative values feature and it was really beautiful and Janet said I would never describe

myself as Sophie's best friend but I think we are kindred spirits and I can catch her eye across the crowded room and know what's going on in her head and I think she does that for me yeah I think that's true yeah and I think it's I really love the fact that my mum always said that she's not my best friend because we definitely have a mother-daughter relationship and I really like that I only it's the only person I have that with that's great yeah I've got friends but I've only got one mum will you explain to us a bit about your family structure because you said you're an only child until the age of eight and then you became part of this magnificent sounding blended family yeah and I wonder what that was like because they're very hard things to create and make smooth um well I guess I don't think you do create and make smooth the things that I think a lot of it

relies on just the chemistry of it working actually I think I think my mum chose with my stepdad an amazing man so that made the process a lot easier because neither of us we weren't really kind of trying to figure it out we just it just unfolded you know what I mean it wasn't like a big moment of like sitting down and you know okay so now you're this role and I'm that I mean at the beginning it was definitely a little bit clunky because John had never really spent any time with children. And so we met when I was seven and he had this very sort of dry northern wit and the first Christmas we spent together,

his Christmas present to me was a packet of balloons that said, happy birthday, Jane, which he thought was really funny. That is hilarious. Yeah, but I was so so confused I just didn't understand what was going on with that um but we found our way completely and I think all the best relationships they don't really ever need explaining or working out do they but I do yeah so my mum and John married and then actually a little bit similar to me they found out they're

having my brother Jack when they'd been together for three months. So, you know, it took their time. And then I was absolutely obsessed with Jack, my little brother, just obsessed with him. And then my dad married my stepmum, Polly, I think maybe like the year after mum and John got married, so she's been there since I was little as well.

And I have a brother and two sisters on that side and another sister on my mum and John's side now. So there's lots of us now. Yeah. So I'm a stepmother. In fact, I've been a stepmother twice. If you could give any advice from the perspective of the child to a step parent or someone whose partner has a child, what would that advice be? There's loads of good stuff. But I think the most important one, actually, is never slag off the other parent. Just don't get involved in the drama between the mum and the dad. Just don't get involved.

Don't make a comment about it. Obviously, you can be supportive to your partner behind closed doors, but as a child, you don't want to hear anybody trying to reason why your dad needs to see you more whatever and you know I hope my stepmom wouldn't mind saying that she that's what she did when I was little and I just really struggled with that I think that's actually probably the main thing right and just take your time I mean it's quite a big deal if you're in single digits and find that there's a new significant other and the thing my parents both did that was brilliant is they didn't introduce

their other halves until they knew it was a serious thing so it wasn't like I was a there was a bit when my mum was dating like loads of people I didn't meet hardly any of them we're really discovering an awful lot about Janet Ellis yeah it was wild yeah who are you seeing tonight she's like oh I'm off to see so and so I only met I think two boyfriends before my stepdad one of them was really cool because he actually kept monkeys. Oh, that is cool. Yeah, two monkeys. Yeah.

I know. In the house? Yeah, in the house. So we'd go around there and I'd be left with the monkeys for a bit. Great. Yeah. I mean, that's the best piece of advice. If you're a step-parent.

Yeah, get some monkeys. Just get the monkeys in. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think if you're a step-mum, you're kind of trying to be like a slightly fun, you're not trying to be a parent person. 100%. I think it's something other, but that other can be really significant.

Yeah. And I do, I can see the trace of all my parents in me. I can see, you know, all of them. I know I've got, I've been raised by my stepparents too. I can feel that. I know it's there. That's a beautiful thing to say very generous thing to say and I think that's great advice I really enjoy the role of actively not being a parent in that scenario because I do

think that there is a function that you can serve that is not about disciplining or saying no eat your broccoli or it's it's actually someone who is hopefully relaxing to be around yes and allows you to be yourself and I think you're also right that it takes time yeah and that people if anyone is relating to this in the audience you shouldn't beat yourself up if it if it doesn't happen immediately because I think and I think a lot of films are really unhelpful in that regard because they make it seem... Yeah. No, no, and it's a big deal.

And once the foundation's there, it just flows. You don't have to worry about it anymore. And, like, you know, that was one thing about when John died that was actually incredible, was that I knew there was nothing we needed to say to each other. And that's huge. If you're losing someone, it's huge. If you're just very at peace with your relationship with that person, that meant so much to me. And I was really aware of that. That was lovely. Yeah.

How would you describe yourself as a parent, other than someone who doesn't make them practice musical instruments? What do you think are your greatest strengths as a parent and your greatest weaknesses? I do know that I talk about things a lot, and I hope that's good. I'm trying to raise people that aren't afraid to communicate anything or have those conversations. There's probably a lot of energy with my parenting sometimes,

but I think my kids have learned to chill out with me a little bit. I hope it's a lot of fun. I do try and have a lot of fun. I think childhood's so precious and it just doesn't last that long. And there's lots of ways that, you know, they see the window into what happens next. And we just try and walk in step with them, really, and see the world through their eyes as much as possible, really. I've got five very different kids. And so it matters to me that they feel really seen for who they are I never try and clump them together they're all definitely five individuals and they all want different things and go about things

different ways so I think that's probably my best thing is probably the communication thing I think the worst thing is probably just spreading myself a bit thin with things really be it with them or with work that's always tough but then I think that's probably why I started my podcast because I got a bit obsessed with this thing of how you calibrate being a working woman who's also raising a family. I think that's probably been something that bothers working women for time eternal, really. Are there specific challenges to raising five boys in this particular environment? The reason I ask that is because I have friends who have both boys and girls and my best friend was telling me the story about how her son went to the playground

one day and there were girls in his class walking around with t-shirts that said girls rule the world and girls are the best and basically saying to each other boys are rubbish and he felt he's a very sensitive child and he felt really sad by that he was like why am I no good and I wondered like sometimes that's the flip side that you don't often hear and I wondered if you've had any experience of that and if there are a particular set of challenges well I completely understand where your friend's coming from with that but actually I still think on the whole just the way that everything is so gendered is is really exhausting and I think the moment I had my first baby and he happened to be a boy I was so disappointed and surprised by how much expectation there was about who he was going to be just because he happened to be male like I was really

like how how can anything be that binary like obviously whenever anything's being recalibrated things can go a little bit too far the other way so you know you shouldn't have any t-shirt that said either gender is better than the other but I do think on the whole like the other day I went into a shop and it had two walls of clothing and there was definitely the boys side and the girls side the girls like why did they decide like girls get horses we get that we get puppies get butterflies rainbows boys they get construction things cars lions dinosaurs I'm just like I don't get it like why is it why is it so gendered and then I think one of the boy things says something like you're a champ or here comes trouble or something and I just think all of that is so naff it looks really archaic to me so I think for me

when the moment I had my first baby I just wanted them to feel like they had choice and options. And then they can really listen and support everybody. Like my sons have friends from all different backgrounds, all different genders. Like that's exactly how it should be. They should be looking at people. That's what I'm raising. I'm raising people. Oh, I love that so much.

It's such a welcoming ethos that is also reflected in your music. I feel that everyone is welcome in what you put out into the world yeah your third and final failure which is such an interesting one is your failure to give yourself a room of your own yes tell us what you mean by that well I suppose it's literal and metaphorical but I think initially it was very literal and I realised it a lot during lockdown, where I realised the whole house, there was nowhere in the house that was just mine. Every room was someone else's or a communal space. My husband's got a studio he could go into, but I didn't have anywhere that was just for me to go to. And obviously that's

quite decadent anyway, like I can't expect that that but it would be really lovely to have a space just to go to where it's just my things and my thoughts but actually I think it was also metaphorical because I realized and actually this has been maybe quite late you know I've been quite late to realize this but I've never I haven't really given enough space enough room to actually my work I think in the home I'd always talked it down and put it to one side. And if I was going out for the day, I'd be like, oh, I'm just doing this little thing and I'll be back later. But it's nothing or I don't really want to be doing it. I want to be here with you to the kids or whatever. And then I thought, actually, hell no. I really love what

I do. And I've worked really hard to get some of the opportunities I have. I've just given it more space, more room. And that's been really good for me I really needed to do that especially in your 40s have you watched um the JLo half-time thing on yes I have oh my god I love it now there's someone who built herself a bloody room that's a mansion but she's like she's so empowering yeah she is she's like I can do this I'm I can be bigger like that like I loved it yeah I got a bit obsessed I love it too no I'm totally obsessed with JLo as well and I love all music documentaries on Netflix yeah Taylor Swift one is also excellent I haven't watched that yet oh and the Billie Eilish one on Apple is also anyway that's a tangent um why do

you think that for so long you haven't given yourself that do you think it was that sort of apologetic well fit my work around all this stuff yeah I think lots of things are a bit of a choice or a gear you can slip into. And there are lots of ways that all of us do that all the time. And just some of them I just started, I think actually, weirdly, it's probably through doing the podcast

and having lots of conversations with people. And you start to slightly, you know, tap on things, don't you? And like open lids to boxes that you hadn't really done for a while. And they're like, I realized I kept saying in interviews with people, yes, I really would love a room of my own and I was like I don't what am I really talking about there and I realized it was actually just giving it space and a bit of

gravitas and significance and I think I don't know maybe because sometimes my work is a bit of a I'm not uncomfortable that's too strong a word but it does take me away from the kids and it does demand a lot of me sometimes and maybe I was just always trying to play it down a little bit yeah you should be unafraid of taking yourself seriously yeah exactly that's another thing actually I realized I used to say like oh I'm stupid or I'm an idiot or things like this just in conversation about myself all the time I still do it a bit but I've tried to be a bit better about that actually it's not a great way to talk about yourself is it it isn't and you would never talk to your best friend like that no so you shouldn't be talking to yourself

like that I had this a sort of similar conversation with Katlin Moran last night about the power of a compliment and how as women and people of any gender who struggle with self-worth if someone says oh you look great you should say thank you and that's it and if someone says oh I like your boots you shouldn't be like oh god these are just from And if someone says, oh, I like your boots, you shouldn't be like, oh, God, these are just from Zara. They're like, oh, no, don't even look at them. Don't look at me, I'm terrible. I know.

And I had a period in my life where I realised, I wrote a novel called Paradise City, and one of the characters was this bombastic billionaire called Howard Pink, who walked around the world as if he owned it. And I realised that I had it within me to write that character. And not only that, but it was really fun. Like he was super rich and super entitled. I was like, so I have that. I managed to do that, to inhabit that. So

I must have that skill somewhere within me. And I looked at the emails I was sending at work at the time I was a feature writer on The Observer. And the emails I would send to my editor were like, this is probably a rubbish idea. Don't you listen to me. I'm so sorry. Might you have a moment? Might you just consider this thing? It's just a thing that I just, you know, don't even worry.

Actually, forget I said anything. I mean, I'm the same. Yeah. And no one's going to say, yes, that sounds like a great idea. Let's put it in the paper. Yeah. Because you have made yourself sound like you don't believe in it. it absolutely and it's really easy to dismiss something if someone set it up like that yes you go okay well uh yeah we don't really need it thanks and I realized if I could

be a bit more like that bombastic billionaire yeah if I could just take five percent of his arrogant entitlement and write my emails as if I were five percent him yeah and so that's what I started doing I just stripped out all the mitigating words and it really worked. I was going to say, I bet people didn't think anything more than just, there was just more clarity in what you said. A hundred percent.

More confidence, that's good. Okay, I'm going to take some of that as well. Yeah, my life advice is to be 5% of an arrogant, entitled billionaire. Done. That's my mantra for life. I like it. So how is your room of your own now? Well, I don't literally have a room of my own, that's fine mantra for life I like it um so how is your room of your own now well I don't literally

have a room and that's fine why not why not where would I put it I haven't got a space for a room you're Sophie Ellis Baxter could you build it could you not build one of those sort of garden shed things that's half office I thought about that actually and funnily enough Catlin Moran has one of those it's my dream yeah that's actually my life they're really beautiful yeah maybe one day. There's not room for it right now. But I think the metaphorical room has been built now. I'm much, much better.

Like with this summer, I did a ridiculous amount of gigs, which was amazing. No complaint. It was incredible. But it meant that the summer was really busy. And I said to the kids, do you understand that every time I get booked for a show, there's so many people they could book,

but they decided to book me. And I've been doing what I do for a really long time, so it would be fine if they don't book me, but they did. So I'm going to really go for it. And I think it actually made them more appreciative and they just kind of understood a bit more about why I was going out and doing what I do.

It might matter to me. And everybody's better for that, aren't they? Nobody's walking away worse off. You did tell me before we came on stage that I could ask you anything. You can. Okay. okay this is a really big question but I'm intrigued to hear what you'll say do you have self-worth oh I hope so yeah I think so yeah but I guess you get your self-worth by surrounding partly by making sure that you surround yourself with nice people and then you feel good good to be around them and if I ever feel any wobbliness, I just look at the people that are my friends

and I think, well, I can't be all bad if that's who's around me. Oh, that is so lovely. It's true, though. I think probably most people feel like that, don't they? You know who you are when you have your friends reflect you back at yourself, don't you? Yes, especially if you're being fully yourself with them. Yeah, absolutely.

And they still like you. Yeah. Lores and all. Absolutely. It's the best friendships what do you think your failures have taught you well the biggest one is probably just about not fearing things going wrong actually I think that that's particularly for anyone creative because you're kind of permanently you have to be your own cheerleader like if I stopped what I do tomorrow no one's going to come banging on my door saying no you must do I have to I have to be the one to put

myself out there again and again so I think that thing of just thinking if the rug gets pulled under me in fact actually I think I run towards it a little bit now do you yeah I've definitely done things and taken on challenges that purely because I think I'm getting a bit too comfortable here let's let's push I like that feeling I like being a little bit pushed out of comfort zone. This has taught me I'm lazy. My failures have taught me I'm brave. No, I think failures teach you that you can take a risk, and actually the greatest failure is maybe not taking the risk in the first place,

because you deny yourself adventures. I also think you can choose a lot about your perspective on things, can't you? And I think maybe through my mum's eyes actually I've inherited and we have a tendency to be quite pragmatic I'm not someone for regret so however cards fall I'll try and find the best outcome from that really there's always there's always something a little silver lining in there isn't there now before we go to the audience for a Q&A so do be thinking of any questions you'd like to ask a new season of strictly come dancing has just started yes you are a former contestant

what advice would you have for the contestants this season after your experience oh just i mean i think actually well there's there's the sort of light thing of just like just really have fun because it's it's so fle. You don't do it for very long, and a lot of it's really magical. But actually, on a more practical note, I would say, incorporate dancer face when you're rehearsing. And what I mean by that

is, when I was first, I remember I was in the car on my way to my first ever rehearsal with Brendan Cole, who I was paired with, and I thought, oh, I've just suddenly remembered, I don't really like dancing when you like touch the other person. Awkward. Really awkward. Especially when she was doing like a waltz. So for about the first three dances, I couldn't really look him in the eye. I found it really intimidating. And I would be learning it in

a kind of very practical way. Like, okay, my feet are doing this, my hands are doing that, that's my body. And then I, the face would be like the last thing I'd think of so on the night when you've been quite tense basically your muscle memory learns everything so if you haven't done the face before it's quite hard to suddenly like pop that little dancer head on top so I'd say do dance a face from day one like bring it I couldn't do it but now I'd be like yeah whatever doesn't matter I think I was a bit self-conscious about looking like I was trying too hard yeah you were saying earlier I was trying really hard it taught you about performance oh definitely what did it teach

you I think it just took away a few layers of inhibition because it was so extreme I've never done any choreography before so it was so far away from anything I'd done before I mean I love dancing on a dance floor like that's really fun but this was you know you're actually trying to do something proper and I think that seeing the dancers they take everything to the extreme everything is huge and I thought oh you know what on stage what feels like you're going a bit too big you're never going too big so I think now I use my whole body a lot more on stage I dance a lot more on stage I don't think you'd recognize it as like proper strictly come dancing dancing but I'm having a lovely time

I I love that as a note to end on that you can never go too big no you can't also dancing just feels amazing doesn't it it's such a tonic it's like the best feeling ever you can never go too big and your failures end up leading you here. Yes. How has this been for you, by the way? Gorgeous. You're so lovely to talk to. It's been really nice. Thank you. I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but thanks very much. And if there are any more compliments anyone would like to give me, I'm very needy. So it's been a total delight for me. Thank you for being such a wonderful interviewee and such an inspiring guest please give it up for Sophie Ellis-Bexter

thank you cheers so now we're coming to you lovely people the house lights are going to go on and if anyone would like to ask a question, just put your hand up. And then if you could wait for a microphone to come to you, that would be really wonderful. Yes, we're going to come to you on the side. Yes, you're waving your arms. Thank you. The microphone is coming to you.

Such an amazing talk. Thank you, Sophie. I've just got to ask the question. Where did the inspiration for Murder on the Dance Floor come from? You haven't sung a rendition yet I'll leave that there Great question So Murder on the Dance Floor

was mostly written by a guy called Greg Alexander who's a very talented singer-songwriter and he had written it when he wanted to go clubbing and his car wouldn't start and he was just in his car with his guitar, writing this kind of cross song about wanting to go clubbing. So it was about murder on the earth floor.

And then I heard it when it was just on a little cassette, and it just had the chorus, and then he'd kind of just thrown in some random lyrics for the other bits. So I kind of finished it off. So some of the lyrics I put in was this bit where it said, you better not steal the moves. And then Greg phoned me.

We'd never met, and he phoned me, and he went, Sophie, you better not steal the moves. And then Greg phoned me. We'd never met, and he phoned me, and he went, Sophie, you better not steal the moves, Sophie. And I couldn't work out if he was, like, really cross with me or he liked it. Did he say hello first, or he went straight? No, literally said hello. Oh, wow, he just went straight in. He's quite an enigmatic kind of guy. But yeah, we ended up working together and everything,

so it was all good in the end. But yeah, the nice thing is I'm still on really good terms with songs like that. I'm still really happy to sing them them which I think is such a nice thing because I know a lot of singers don't feel like that about their songs that people are known for but I'm always happy to sing it I recently interviewed Mel C of the Spice Girls and she said that she sometimes does karaoke with Baby Spice Emma Bunton and they will surprise other karaoke goers who are doing Spice Girls songs by just walking in and be like hi have you ever done that and will you ever do that I would I don't think

anyone ever chooses my songs for karaoke they're quite hard to be fair they're actually not but I just think like Spice Girls yes this is a good choice but um I totally would so yeah if any of you guys go karaoke later let me know and I'll come and join. I love karaoke so much. It is really good fun, although I think they should sometimes do edit. Some of the songs are really long, aren't they? Yeah. I like the little videos they do while the lyrics are playing as well. Yes, the little partying karaoke.

Anyone else? Yes, we're right down here at the front again. Hello. I'm here with my sister and one of my best friends um and my sister coincidentally works she's a designer at designers guild so what is her name lovely fabric yeah it's daisy but earlier we were having drinks we were just talking about um like rejection we're all in our 20s and obviously you've been talking about sort of rejection and failure from sort of a bit further down the line and how you've

learned from that because you know that that led to something better or there was a reason why that happened but I was just wondering if you have any advice for when you're in that moment of rejection or failure or whatever you think it is of how you deal with that sort of in the moment rather than being like 10 20 years down the line and going, oh, well, it was for this reason, because you don't have that reason at that time, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I suppose it depends a little bit on the circumstance,

but I think actually it probably goes a little bit back to the self-worth thing. And so long as you're being spoken to properly and being respected, even if people are telling you that now's not the right time for you to do such and such, I think it's quite good just to try and keep the dialogue open about how you can learn from it.

I know it's like a really vague thing to say, but I just, I think that that's not being too off that, you know, flying off the handle too much. Because it does hurt anyway when you're having that, but just in the moment, just sort of walking away and then you can come back later and talk things through a bit more maybe. I mean, it's hard to sort of know when we're not talking about something specific but I think

the first thing to say is that if you're hurt that's completely fine and that's part of your process and actually all that shows you is that you're a feeling individual with healthy emotions so that's number one and then the thing that I find really helps is to say rejection is protection. If you're rejected by a person, by an employer, by a situation, my belief is that that person, that employer, that situation was not for you and was not serving you in the way that you deserve to be served. So for instance, if you're rejected by a romantic partner, for me, character is action. If they've acted in that way, they are not for you.

That's very true. And that's a helpful way, I feel, of taking this thing out of it. The final thing that I would say is, generally, when you're being rejected, on a personal level, that's almost everything to do with their stuff and what you trigger in them, rather than anything to do with you. I mean, unless you're like an awful, toxic, narcissist, serial murderer,

that extreme accepted. People are projecting their own emotions and their own emotional baggage and their own damaged personal history. And so that's a good way of understanding that actually, ultimately, it's not your responsibility to try and change that for them. It's their responsibility to do the work. Your responsibility is to do the work that you want to do on yourself. And so actually, every single time I've been rejected, I've ended up being so grateful for it for that reason yeah and I think as you said when you're hurt just be kind to yourself sometimes you need time

where you're just gentle with yourself and just go away and just you know heal your wounds a little bit actually cheese yeah actually that's the other thing that I say is that when it comes to sort of being rejected by someone's personal opinion of you, it can be very hurtful, especially if you're a people pleaser. But there are some people in this world who don't like cheese. Now, I find that baffling as someone who just completely loves cheese. I know one of these people. Yeah. You're trying to get them to eat cheese.

And I just can't understand that. But I respect it. But it's like it's not the cheese's fault that you don't like cheese. So that's another way. Just think of yourself as Cathedral City. Okay's true you're right it is always it always says more about the other person yes i said i said it to my kids as well oh yeah definitely okay anyone else you would like yes your microphone is just coming thank you for being patient there we go there we go thank you hi i'm so sorry that this is quite

basic but we'd love to know where all the boots are from great question that's not basic and what's really tragic is that i'm actually thinking i might i'm not gonna get some of them as well i'm thinking that these are fabs these are terry de haverland oh i love and what's good about them is i came all the way here like like, walking, tube, walking. Fine. These are pretty foxy, though, aren't they? Okay, so these are Zara. They're fine.

And not only... I love that gasp, like... I know. Well done, Zara. And they also come in electric green, which I was tempted by. You know what's really tragic? Elizabeth told me that before we came out

and I was like, oh wow, I knew that because I've got the app and I look at it all the time so I already know everything that's in Zara. You knew it. I did. Because I love Zara and I was like, those are nice boots. And I was looking at them with my friend the other day.

It's a hard website to navigate though. You need to know where you're going. It's because they do the thing of swiping the different way you expect. It's very complicated. I was tempted by the electric green but I felt silver would go with more things so that's where the boots are really fun they're great we should go go go dancing yes we're going to go to fire in voxel yeah till the morning thank you so much not basic at all okay yes yeah. Yes. Yeah. Hi, Sophie. Thank you, Elizabeth and Sophie.

My question is just, how do you deal with criticism now, especially from people that don't really know you? So I'm thinking like negative reviews and things like that. That's a great question. It is a good question. I mean, I think broadly speaking, when I first started, I used to get some really nasty stuff said about me online. It is a good question. I mean, I think broadly speaking, when I first started, I used to get some really nasty stuff said about me online. It could be in a review or it could just be like a comment in something.

And it used to really hurt. And then there's the bit where my career kind of goes in the bits where it goes a bit quieter and then no one talks to you. And it's a bit like that Oscar Wilde thing, isn't it? Like the only thing worse than being spoken about is not being spoken about.

And actually, I've come to this sort of nice feeling now where if someone's so bothered about me that they feel they have to put out into the world that they really find me annoying, I find it kind of satisfying. I've annoyed them that much just by existing. That's quite a power they've given me, right? Yeah.

But when it comes to criticising criticizing my work I'm not going to lie that definitely hurts because I put a lot of myself into it and it's not just me I work with people I think are brilliant and everybody really pulls their weight and I think you know there's some so many I mean I'm supported in every direction so that can be quite tricky but but generally it's just one opinion And I think you know in yourself if you've done something that's good or not. And sometimes as well, it takes a little while for... I always think the good will out.

It takes a little while for things to find their spot in life, actually. It's not always the first opinion that matters. It can be when things have had a little chance to percolate. And that's the great thing about music, actually. It can sometimes have a moment a little bit later and you go, oh, that's nice. That really makes sense now. that's the great thing about music actually it can sometimes have a moment a little bit later and you go oh that's nice that really makes sense now that's a great point and actually again i think it's really important to hear that it's oh that it hurts because it means

that you care it means you care about what you've created i saw this great thing on tiktok because i'm really down with the kids and um i think the key to dealing with criticism is really knowing yourself, which is ultimately a very hard thing to do. But there was this guy on TikTok who said, if someone pointed at you and said, I hate your blue hair, it's awful, it looks terrible, it doesn't suit you at all, I don't know why you've dyed it blue, you would go, unless you do have blue hair you would go well what I don't have blue hair so that doesn't affect me and his point was that people's criticisms of you when they don't know you are equivalent to that they don't know anything about you so they're just projecting they're just they've got a glimmer of something and they think that they're speaking to that but

they don't actually know that you don't have blue hair but you need to be the one that knows that about yourself yeah and I find that like it's a very hard thing to do but even just knowing that is the thing to do but the hard thing about it is you haven't got a right to reply and that can be really tricky if you get a criticism and you think oh but you've got that a bit wrong actually yes you can't reply to them I know unless you do and then that looks terrible it's always better not to explain um and also the thing about you know social media is that everybody's got your ear for that tiny minute so if you look on twitter and you get something nasty for that moment whoever that person is they've got you yes they've been able to speak to you you know we never used to have that sort of exchange

with people with so many voices and something that's like maybe i don't know three or four people can feel like a room full of people when you're looking on something like that but you have to kind of keep it perspective really i think that's slightly down to personality type a little bit as well i'm able to walk away from it a bit whereas richard can sometimes really spiral with something and then i've got to kind of talk it through with him yeah if he was here he'd be like no i don't you'd be like yes no, I don't. He'd be like, yes, you do, and then he'd take that to heart. He'd go into a spiral. Poor Richard. Yes, back row over there.

And then we are doing a book signing. Sophie is very kindly staying to do one as well. Yeah, definitely. So we can't wait to speak to more of you then. Yes. Hi, Sophie, and hi, Elizabeth. Hello. Thank you.

It's been a great evening and really great conversation. I am actually one of five daughters and I very rarely meet any mothers who have five children. So ultimately, I guess I just want to know if the middle child is your favourite. I was just going to ask you where you are in the lineup but no I don't need to I love that question I describe my my middle child as the heart of the family I think it's quite a tricky position but I always say you're right in the middle you're the heart of the family which hopefully will so yes basically preserve yeah I know yeah little Ray Ray five daughters that's

like Jane Austen you don't have oh yeah can we give her the mic what are your memories of childhood was it fun or was it crazy absolute chaos is this q a on the uh will it be i can cut you a bit out i mean the q a was going to be but we can cut it out no i'd actually like to give a shout out to my sister, Debbie Stevens, because she listens to your podcast all the time. But she was getting her hair done months ago and you were sat behind her and she was... Me or Sophie? It must be you. You, Elizabeth.

Oh, okay. I haven't been to a hairdresser in months. Oh, gosh. I was sat behind her in the hairdresser. Yeah. Was I okay? What was her experience of me that day no she uh yeah she was just very excited she actually ended up the guy who was cutting her hair fancied another guy that walked past okay and she kind of like set them up oh i think she

like ran out and got the guy i I don't know. I remember her. I remember her. Yes, that was quite recently. She's so cool. I love that she did that. There was a whole psychodrome and I love that hairdresser, the Lion and the Fox in Chancery Lane. Shout out. Shout out to Debbie Stephen. She's my favourite of the five.

Thank you so much. What an amazing note to end on. Thank you so much. What an amazing note to end on. Thank you for being such a lovely, warm, engaged, fabulous audience. But the biggest thank you

of the night, of course, is to the effervescently brilliant Sophie Ellis-Bexter. Thank you. Thank you. if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist