How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jennette McCurdy on Reclaiming Her Voice

Episode Date: February 18, 2026

This episode includes discussion of eating disorders, including anorexia and bulimia. Listener discretion advised. This might be one of the most powerful conversations I’ve ever had on How To Fail. I don’t say that lightly - I’ve had some amazing guests - but there’s something about how Jennette puts the female experience into words that I find truly electrifying. Raised Mormon in Orange County, Jennette was just six when her mother decided she would become an actor. What followed was a difficult, abusive childhood, which she chronicled with unflinching honesty in her 2022 memoir, I’m Glad My Mom Died - a book that spent more than 90 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Her new novel, Half His Age, follows 17-year-old Waldo as she embarks on an affair with her 40-year-old creative writing teacher. It’s a startling, powerful story about discomfort, agency and self-determination and it became a Sunday Times Number One bestseller in its first week! In this episode, we talk about her upbringing, her experience of disordered eating, the writing process and the grounding partner she’s been with for nine years (who I was lucky enough to meet). Plus: setting boundaries, finding your voice, rage, recovery and autonomy. Recorded in our London studio. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 03:27 Speaking Up and Setting Boundaries 04:15 Reception of 'Half His Age' 07:22 Exploring Mormonism and Guilt 14:36 Failures and Creative Process 30:09 Calorie Restriction Lessons from My Mother 30:58 First Encounter with Anorexia 32:45 The Turning Point: Mother's Death and Recovery 32:58 Struggles with Bulimia 35:41 Therapy and the Road to Recovery 36:47 Understanding the Value of Eating Disorders 38:59 Healing Through Relationships 42:58 Finding My Voice and Inner Peace 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: I think oftentimes a woman is perceived as difficult if the person around her can't meet her standards. It’s time that women start speaking up in any capacity - and not worrying about being 'too much'. There is nothing more powerful than a woman's intuition. I believe our bodies have inherent knowledge... denying our bodies is nothing but a disservice to a better life path for ourselves. If you feel resentment, it's time to set a boundary. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Jennette’s new book Half His Age is available to buy now Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Dolly Alderton – writing personal truth and navigating public scrutiny swap.fm/l/XM98joc3GFEMTsLfkEfR Matt Haig – mental health and transforming suffering into storytelling swap.fm/l/amHeyBr7x2jg3Isw3JxG Jameela Jamil – body image, disordered eating and unlearning harmful conditioning swap.fm/l/D0j8oJQ52OwiJu6W3T4o 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Jennette (who is a naturally brilliant agony aunt) answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think oftentimes a woman is perceived as difficult if the person around her can't meet her standards. Growing up in that religion, there's a lot of inherent guilt to the culture, sexual guilt, and just kind of almost a guilt for existing. Challenges build character. I could afford less character. Like, I don't need to be resilient. I can afford less character. Let's go, baby. I feel this interview is just, it's so serendipitous. Like, everything that you are saying is feeding directly into my soul. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes all failure is a portal to self-discovery. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode.

Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass delivers a world-class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing. So there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and The Tipping Point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas. And it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or work out into a classroom with audio mode.

so you can listen to a Masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. I want to be love by you. What is love? It supports us, challenges us and connects us. I'm Gina Davis, host of The Science of Love, a special by The Science of Happiness podcast and PRX. We'll look at romantic love, family bonds, friendship, and even the love we feel for the natural world.

Join me for the Science of Love. Jeanette McCurdy's novel, Half His Age, tells the story of a 17-year-old girl called Waldo, embarking on an affair with Mr. Corgi, her 40-year-old, creative writing teacher. It is an astonishing book, partly because of its empathetic refusal to judge its protagonists, but also because in her observation of adolescent female anger and insecurity, McCurdy takes Waldo on a journey through her discomfort to a place of powerful agency and self-determination. In McCurdy's hands, rage transmutes into power. It's an impressive. It's an impressive. Fet for a debut novelist and unsurprising that the book has been a hit on both sides of the Atlantic,

becoming a Sunday Times number one bestseller in its first week of publication. But McCurdy did not start out as a writer. Growing up Mormon in Orange County, California, McCurdy was six when her mother decided her only daughter would become an actor. Soon she was supporting her mother and three brothers full time through work. It was a difficult and abusive upbringing, a story told with unflinching honesty in her 2022 memoir, I'm glad my mom died, which spent more than 90 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list. Writing, she says, has been such a profound source of identity for me. It's been the place where I have found myself. Jeanette McCurdy, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. What a beautiful intro.

I'm so honored to have you and thank you so much for the gift of your words, you have this rare ability to be courageous enough to tell the truth and to help readers see themselves and their experience on the page. So I want to start with that. Well, it's so many say that the sort of courage to tell the truth because I feel that it is honestly something that people say a lot about my writing. And I've kind of been thinking about that recently where like 90% of my thoughts are things that you really shouldn't say out loud in any sort of social setting or capacity. And yet writing them down, they're then sort of hailed as like so brave, where if I just were to say the same things at a dinner, the forks would, you know, stop.

Everyone would look at me and be like, okay, no, that's not what we say here. Yet, you know, in writing, it's sort of not only allowed, but really, really rewarded. And it's just, it's interesting to think about. It's so interesting. And I wonder if that truthfulness has, has felt like such a liberation for you. Because, I mean, as many women do, we've sort of been raised so many of us to please others and to be nice. Yes, 100%. Be accommodating at the expense of your own feelings.

Make everybody else in the room feel okay. Who cares how you're feeling? Just all you have to do is be there for everybody else. Show up for everybody else. Get them to feel the way that they need to feel. I'm really sick of that. I think it's time that women start speaking up for ourselves in any capacity. not worrying about, you know, we're told, oh, don't be difficult, don't be, don't be too much. And, you know, you want to get ahead. So, so, but it's really actually counterproductive. And I think this messaging keeps us down. I think oftentimes a woman is perceived as difficult if the person around her can't meet her standards.

What has been the most surprising thing for you about the reception to half his age? to be totally honest, the amazing critical response. I really, really, I don't want to jinx it, but I thought there would be a lot of pushback, I guess just because of the success of the memoir, I thought there would be kind of a real, you know, kind of arms cross skepticism and kind of a, like, okay, little girl, let's see what you got, kind of snarky attitude. And that hasn't been the case at all. And it's, I stay away from reviews, but people send me nice stuff. So that's, that's been, you. you know, seeing reviews in the New York Times and the Atlantic and, you know, Sunday times and all these places where it's really, my work as being respected and appreciated has been,

like, beyond meaningful to me. I want to sit here and go, oh, reviews don't matter and, you know, and I definitely don't write from that. I'm never writing going, what are the reviews going to say? That would be disastrous. But just to feel that the work is understood is ultimately meaningful. It does mean something to me. I am getting those articles. framed. Like, that's the, that's the reality. You really deserve it. There's no seamless link to this next question, but you grew up Mormon. Go for it. I want to talk about Mormonism because the Brits have a longstanding fascination with Mormonism. Really? Well, we don't really get it. Okay. I saw, I saw that the play is going here. The play is going, yeah, Book of Mormon has been a huge hit because

we want to understand more. And yes, I feel like Mormonism is having such a cultural moment in the most unexpected way. Like the real secret lives of Mormon wives. Yes, I've heard about this. I haven't seen it. But is this, so this is something, it's here as well. Okay. That's here as well. It started on TikTok or something or exactly. It started as mom talk because there was a swingers scandal involving these Mormon women who were all in their early 20s, but like married with kids. Mormons have really changed. If there's like swingers happening, that is like quite the opposite of what the premise is. But can I ask you about Mormonism and whether you, think that has shaped in any way your creative output? Wow. What a what a deep question. I think it is

shaped certainly it is it is really kind of shaped who I am or the way that I think about things and by that I mean guilt. You know there's a lot of sort of growing up in that religion there's a lot of inherent guilt to the culture, sexual guilt and just kind of almost a guilt for existing. I think a lot of those people pleasing tendencies specifically as a woman really can be traced back to that, though I think we've all kind of been told that in one way or another, Mormon or not, or wherever we've grown up, it's just we're told to be accommodating to others. In that culture growing up, it was really, you know, these are the expectations of a woman. And it's that you stay home, you have kids, you do the dishes, you make your husband dinner,

and you have it on the table at six. And you smile while you're doing it and you're grateful that that's what you are able to do, what you are allowed to do. And if that's what somebody wants to do, amazing. That's beautiful. But if it's not what you want to do and you're just being constantly told that that's what you've got to do, it's really, really frustrating. But you're not allowed to be frustrated. You know, you've got to be, as a Mormon, you've really got to be happy and grateful and just show up sort of with a smile on your face and find the positive and everything. And there's not always a positive in everything. You know, and I think finding reality is far more important and far more beneficial. And you can find the positive from there. But just kind of living in a world where you're pretending everything's fine when some things really are not, I think it's a way to just kind of keep a person down. And I say this actually with a certain tenderness for the religion

because it did feel like a safe environment for me. Now I see it is completely not that, but growing up, you know, in a household with so much chaos, there was something quite peaceful about just being in a pleasant, clean space. And I really appreciated that. And I did appreciate the sense of community. I did appreciate the morals, though, of course, now I see there's such a kind of complexity there, because how can you have certain morals while you're doing things that are so kind of harmful to certain groups, and that makes zero sense. But it certainly shaped who I am and how I think. And, but I don't think it has shaped my sort of creative output other than just, I mean, there's a character in half his age who's Mormon. Yes. That's really,

yeah. I couldn't help but do a little nod. Do you still carry the guilt? Let me think. Let me check in with my body. I think in some instances, I'm like, I don't really have an example off the top of my mind, but certainly not, you know, there's not sexual guilt. And, you know, sex is really a theme that comes up in this in this book a lot in writing sex in an honest way was so important to me. Maybe I'm, you know, maybe there's some element of that that, that early sexual guilt that sort of led to this path. But there's no kind of direct line that I can see.

And then generally I would say I don't have a lot of guilt. I think I live in a way that I have values that I try to make my choices off of. I try to let those values guide my life. But beyond that, if I'm doing that, then I don't think there's really much room for guilt. Yes. My best friend is a therapist and she always says that guilt is a signal that you've done something wrong. So if you haven't done something wrong, there's no need to feel guilty. Yes.

Yeah. I'm curious if there's something I heard from a therapist, which is if you feel resentment, it's time to set a boundary. Oh, that's so good. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that so good? That's so good. And can I just say how much I love hearing you answer questions? Oh, thank you. We were talking. I was like, I was so long-witted with a Mormon thing. I'm already judging it. No, there is guilt. Yes. Let me relieve you from the need to judge. That was an incredible answer and so nuanced. And we were talking before we started recording about how as writers, we feel that it's better to or easier to express ourselves on the page because we can redraft. But when we're in the moment and talking, there's that inner critic constantly saying you could have said that better. I hate 90% of what I say. Literally, after I leave here, I will go, why did I say?

That was too long. I could have said that differently. I wish I would have done that. And it's exhausting. And I find writing so freeing in a way because you can just get it right. You can say it the way that you want to say it. You can revise it until it's exactly how you want it to be said. And that's not the case with anything else.

I also just want to acknowledge that in talking about your work, you are often asked by interviews like me to trawl over really difficult trauma. And I just wanted to sort of say that because I know that it doesn't come without a cost. Wow. And I don't want you to feel that any of your experiences are being cheapened here. I want you to feel held. I'm quite moved by you saying that. Oh, Jeanette. Well, I'm moved by your response

and I just want you to know that I see you and it's important. No, please. Take your time. Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. You look so pretty when you cry. Is that an inappropriate thing to say?

You really do. That is so kind and it is so felt, it is so felt from you, the generosity and the, depth and insightfulness that you ask with is it's not always the case and I understand that this is a part of the job and you know I really want my my I care about my work I put my heart and soul into you know into half his age for years and and and this is a part of the job and I want and I'm grateful to have a platform where I'm able to do this you know these various press interviews

and things to be able to have a platform for the book I want people to read it I care about people reading and I think it's really you know it's it's worth their time and I don't think I think I think people really ought to value their time most of all. And I do think this is a book worth their time. But it can be challenging when, you know, when things are, things can get personal or when, you know, people will ask questions about the memoir, which I wrote years ago and it's something I'm so proud of. But ultimately it's like to sometimes be kind of touted out and just be like, so that abusive mom of your, it's like, can we just not for a second? And so I really appreciate you saying that. Of course. Let's get onto your failures because your first one is about the novel. Yes. Because you were writing a different novel. And this is your first failure is that you didn't finish it. So tell us about that novel that you didn't finish it. I was and I think this is such a key kind of element of the creative process and I hope it's useful for somebody, for any creative out there. But I was working on another novel that I really, really liked. I was about six months in, pretty deep in. I had had multiple drafts at this point and was really in the thick of it. And I think this thing happens with creative ideas where initially, you tell me if you feel this way, if you agree, right? Initially, they're so attractive. They're so sexy. Such a good way of expressing it. It's the honeymoon phase.

You're dating. You're having sex a lot. Like, it's great. And then it becomes work. Inevitably becomes work. And the honeymoon phase kind of fades. And it's like, okay, now we're really in the thick. We got our, you know, pants pulled up and we're in there.

And then every other idea you have ever had starts to look real hot. And you think, if I could just not be in this. If I could just date that other one for a little bit, it'd be so nice. Or they're so beautiful. If I could just. And so that's what happened here where I was six months into this other process. And I was so deep in the way. project and half his age was just really pushing itself up on me. And it was so intense that it got

to the point where it was undeniable. And I said, okay, I will give half his age a week. I will, because I can't stop thinking about it, I will put the breaks on this other idea for a week. I'll work on half his age. I figured I would get it out of my system and then return to the other one sort of going, oh, I'm so grateful to be in this long-term relationship and we are meant to be together. and that is not what happened at all. And 30 days later, I had a first draft of half his age. I just physically could not return to the other one. I'm very much a bodily writer.

And so, I mean, clearly I'm emotional. And so I kind of have to just work with it. I can't work against it. It doesn't work for my life I've learned. So I had to go, okay, the excitement's in half his age. Let me get this out. I got the first draft out. And then I went back into the second and third, you know, every subsequent draft from there.

And now, you know, nearly whatever, 20 drafts and two years later, this is clearly the one that was meant to be because it's the one that is. So fascinating, so much I want to ask you about that. That idea of feeling it in your body and having learnt that you have to pay attention to that instinct is so powerful. Do you think that part of the reason you couldn't ignore this is because you'd spent so many years in a kind of control dynamic where you weren't able to follow your instincts? Oh, my God. the only person who's put that that is so brilliantly said, such a, wow, insightful connection.

Yes, I think that's exactly it. I, you know, I had eating disorders from age 11 through my early kind of 20s. And there was so much body denial. And I really, you know, it's what I had to do for the time. It's an important part of recovery is really accepting, like, you know, you did what you had to do. And that's what it was for me. But it is so sad to me looking back on it, the amount of, it was a real betrayal to my own body and a real denial because of feeling things so intensely and knowing if I would have literally come into contact with any of my emotions, all they would have been telling me would be to get out of all the situations I was in. And you can't do that when you're 14.

So, you know, thank God I had some sort of defense mechanism, some sort of coping mechanism. It might sound strange to say, given that it was such an unhealthy one. but it really was important to getting me through kind of that phase. It was all that I had. But there was so much body betrayal. And now, you know, as a 33-year-old woman who is in touch with her emotions, painfully, like, so in touch with her emotions. It is so clear to me that there is nothing more powerful than a woman's intuition. I believe that about all of us. I believe our bodies have inherent knowledge that if we try to kind of analyze our way, oh, and we can, maybe if we can, no, our bodies know.

And denying our bodies is nothing but a disservice to a better life path for ourselves. If we could just accept our emotions, allow our emotions, let them inform our decisions. I think 100% of the time puts our lives on a better path. And that's definitely something that I continue to kind of relearn over and over through the years. Wow. That is exactly what I believe. Thank you so much for putting it into words. When this idea kept pushing itself against you, does that work? That phrase? Yes, I think it does.

Yeah. It's like it has to be, it had to be birthed. Like it was so in my body, you know, it was just its time. You had an age gap relationship when you were 18. Yes. When you first had the idea, did you think, is this another memoir? Was there ever a point where you thought, am I writing myself here? No, there was never a point or a question in my mind about that because so much of kind of this, the book, the novel is told entirely through the point of view of the protagonist Waldo. And really her voice was feeling very clear to me and who she is and, and what she wants and how she operates. And it is, you know, she's entirely her own character and the novel is entirely its own sort of story. And I'm aware people will project me onto it because I just know that's going to happen. And I do think it would be a misread if people do that. But I get that that's kind of part of it, although I will say to your point of being in an early, you know, an age gap relationship when I was 18, I do find it really important that there's some sort of significant personal connection to whatever it is that I write, especially fiction, I would say.

I think it's so important there's something deep in my bones that I really, really understand about kind of the core of the subject. matter, I trust myself to tell that story. I trust myself to carry that kind of story. And then also, it's just so much more fun to be able to build out and expand and get into various characters' points of view. And it's quite liberating to not be limited by life experience. And I read somewhere that you in a later draft had included more from Mr. Corgi's perspective, not in his words, but you were kinder to him in later draft, even though he comes across brilliantly, but ultimately is this kind of pathetic figure. It's Waldo has the power by the end of it.

There's this one scene, it's just so telling, where he's left his marriage and he's able to blue tack up his poster of a clockwork orange. And there's one corner of it that just keeps flapping down. And Waldo sees it, and it's such a metaphor for just how his life is just sort of a flapping down. But what was that like for you?

you sort of setting yourself that challenge of seeing, of not demonizing him. I'm glad you mentioned this because I think it does go back to kind of the not being finger wagging or moralistic. In earlier drafts he was a bit more mustache twirley villain, a bit more on the nose, right? And I would read those drafts back and feel, I could feel myself kind of writing defensive, both wanting to defend Waldo, protect Waldo rather, protect Waldo and then also, I think, wanting to defend myself. This is how I feel about this. This is a bad situation.

This is how I, the writer, feel about this, right? And I could feel myself kind of intervening. And it did not read well. You know, it didn't read well. He wasn't believable. He wasn't grounded. Ultimately, I do believe that people are trying their best and failing miserably. Everybody, I think that is just a part of life.

It's who we are. It's who I am. It's who everybody, I believe, is. And I also think nobody ever thinks they're the bad guy. So I know we're going to be reading this and we're going to be, most of us, if not all, if not 100% of us, we'll be viewing Corgi a certain way and putting, placing that judgment on him. But he doesn't feel that about himself. He believes he is, um, making the best decision that he can at any moment and that he has the best of intentions. And so I wanted that to kind

of come through. And so I really had to sit with the point of view of what is it like to be a 40 year old man who has really not fulfilled any of the things that he thought hoped or expected that he would. And I did feel for him as uncomfortable as that is to say. I do think it was important to writing him believably and ultimately to believing Waldo because she has to be a reliable narrator. The moment we discredit her as a narrator is the moment we're off, knowing that we're all older than her. We're reading this thing from somebody 10, 20 years younger than us. You know, how do we make sure that we don't discredit her? And if she's painting him a certain way, we're going, well, then why did you fall for him in the first place?

And it was so important to really make sure that Waldo was reliable. That's such a great point. How much, if at all, did that process help you recategorize or reanalyze your own age gap relationship? Oh, I'm thinking now, I'm like, I don't even know if I was, I think I was so kind of in the thick of it that I wasn't really processing my own. I think ultimately some processing did wind up happening. Some closure was kind of found through the writing of it. But I wasn't really putting my own experience on it or kind of reflecting back. To me, it might have been distracting or limiting, you know, in a way.

Maybe I would have put more judgment on it or something. I don't know. I'm working this out in real time here, but it really did feel like I was operating from, you know, I believe Mr. Corgi is a per. He really feels real to me. Waldo feels so, so real to me. And so I was kind of just working out. the dynamics through who these people are.

The other relationship that I found so compelling in this novel is the relationship between Waldo and her mother. I think you paint that really beautifully. Why was that important for you to explore? I think family dysfunction or complicated family dynamics are something that I will always explore. I just wouldn't know how to write, you know, clean kind of healthy family dynamics. because I would have not the first idea. Yeah, I'm literally like trying to think of what a line would be with the healthy idea.

Here's your dinner, sweetheart. Have a great night. How is school? I'm bored. Yeah. I'm bored. Yeah, I think there's something sort of so much more juicy and interesting. And it's also just it's what I know.

And I think it is writing is oftentimes a way for me to kind of find closure and work through things that I do. don't have the answers to myself, sit with those uncomfortable aspects of families. And so I think that's just something I'll always write. Yeah. I'm so, if I can ask, why are you so interested in failure? I'm really curious. Oh, what a lovely question. I think the short answer is that I think failure has stripped me of my old certainties about how I thought life was going to be. and introduce me to the truth of who I really am. Wow. And what I mean by that is like so much of life is driven by ego

and also by social conditioning. What we've inherited from our parents, what we've inherited from society or culture or the amount of rom-coms we've watched. And so I grew up with this very sort of conventional notion of what my life might be like. And it did not go according to that plan by some metric. And so I found myself feeling like such a failure

at the age of 39. I'd gone through a divorce. I tried and failed to have children. And online, at that stage, it felt like everyone had perfect lives on Instagram. And so I was interested in the disconnect because it also made me feel alienated. Wow. Wow. And since then, I've kind of become obsessed with it. I've learned so much through it. They're talking to people like you who are so brilliant and wise and smart. I learn every time I have a conversation like this. Wow. So it's sort of a switch at about 39 and just kind of life events. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think you're so ahead of your time. Like, you're 33. You are way ahead of where I was. I mean, thank goodness. Oh, I don't know about that. That's why. It makes so much sense. And I really, I completely agree. I love sort of the premise of the podcast. I do think that, you know, the universe,

whatever you want to identify it as does know more than we do. And I think there are so many things. And I'm so sort of this. I, I'll set my eyes on one thing and I'll just go, that's what it has to be and it needs to be this. And I think I know best. And I never do. Literally, I can treat anything in my life where I have thought, this is what's going to be best for me. Life goes, actually no. And it shows me what is going to be best for me. Absolutely. So moved by that. You've totally nailed it. And my not having the baby that I thought I always wanted has actually been, I think, the unconsored. of my life purpose. Wow. Wow.

I now strongly feel that part of my purpose is to speak for those people who don't and can't. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So things like that are just so meaningful and profound. Yes.

You never really know why things are happening until after they've happened. So true. The thing that you do know is that you can have more faith that you're going to survive it because of how much you've survived already. Yes.

Yes. Oh, I can navigate this. Oh, you know what? I'm more adaptable. I'm more, this word can be kind of cringy or I find it kind of cringy, but resilient. Yes. Because I was thinking like, well, I'd rather not have to be fucking,

can I say, fuck. A please swear enough so. Okay. I'd rather not have to be resilient. Wouldn't it be great or like, oh, you know, challenges build character. I could afford less character. Like, I don't need to be resilient.

I can afford less character. Let's go, baby. But, you know, I guess these are, these just happen, you know. Jeanette McCurdy could afford less character. It's the best. It's just the best. Carvana's so easy, just a click, and we've got ourselves a car. See?

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Let's get on to your second failure. And I want to preface this by saying how grateful I am that you are going to talk about it. I know it will speak to so many people. And it's that early on in your eating disorder recovery, you had lots of, as you put it in quotation marks, slips or failures. Can we go back to the genesis of your disordered eating? Yes. And the first memory you have of it. I woke up when I was, I think I was 11 years old and I'd had a lump in my breast. And I thought, oh, no, my mother had cancer when I was two years old.

She, you know, eventually recurred and she passed away when I was 21. But she had breast cancer when I was two. And so I was always kind of hyper, hyper, hyper aware of breast cancer is a scary looming thing. You know, it's hereditary. I could get it at some point. So I'm 11. I feel a lump in my breast. I think I've got breast cancer. I'm dying. Of course, it was just breast tissue. It was just a little bit of breast tissue developing. And my mom kind of told me that I was, oh, you're getting boobs. And it was a very hysterical, intense reaction. She really, you know, had a lot of fear around me growing up. She didn't want that to happen, I think, for a number of reasons. That's its own podcast. But so she taught me calorie restriction. And she was really, she really struggled herself. didn't know this at the time. Of course, I just thought my mom had very specific eating habits, which included not eating most of the time. She'd just have a tea with nothing in it for breakfast

every day. Yeah, she had these sort of corks around her eating that she then really taught to me. And it was as gross as it is to say it was a bonding opportunity for us. I perceived it as a bonding opportunity. For me, it was like a fun sequence in the parent shop where they're like doing hand dives, but we're like counting calories together. And it just seemed like this little secret that we have that nobody else knows about and we do it in private and how great because that makes us even closer and we're best friends. And we're so enmeshed and codependent. And so I learned, you know, how to calorie restrict and was really, really intensely restricting my calories and very quickly developed anorexia and was hyper, hyper monitoring everything that went into my body until eventually I was at, you know, a doctor. And, you know, the doctor pulled my mother out of the room and said that she was, you know, concerned that I may have anorexia.

It's the first time I've heard this word. And I thought, literally my first thought was like, oh, that sounds like a dinosaur, like anorexia. But I could tell by the tone of her voice and how she was speaking with my mom that something was wrong. Because I think, you know, as kids were so perceptive and we pick up on these emotional cues better than many adults. Because by adulthood, we've stifled and suppressed and we're blocking, we're just avoiding at all costs so much of the time. but as kids were just hyper in tune with these cues. So I knew something's wrong, but I also couldn't go near the reality of what that wrong thing was because my mom would never do that. And I needed my mom on that pedestal to survive.

So it took a long, long time before I was able to kind of recognize that. This is something that I recognized, you know, after my mother passed at 21, 22. This is not something at 11. I'm like, well, got anorexia. You know, I didn't, I wasn't piecing it together. I'm so sorry that you went through that. And this is not a podcast about your excellent memoir, which, by the way, I listened to on audio. Oh.

That was a whole experience. And you did an incredible job of narrating it. But that memoir opens with you at your mother's bedside as she's dying, saying, I've reached my goal weight because you felt like that was the thing that would most excite her and keep her alive. Believe that with all my heart. Yeah. And it's also funny. It's also darkly comic. And it's hilarious.

I'm like, mommy, I'm almost 86, whatever it was, pounds. Yeah. So your mother died and then you felt able to explore recovery. How did that happen? I think because it had to. You know, it got to the point where I had kind of hit a rock bottom. It lost a tooth from at this point, the anorexia had morphed into bulimia. So, yeah, from 11 until 23.

And it was really, really, that was incredibly intense. intense and complicated because people don't really talk about this, but sort of bulimia to any person with an eating disorder feels like a failure off the back. Like you're you've failed, you're never aiming for bulimia. You're aiming for anorexia. You failed anorexia. You landed at bulimia. So you're constantly kind of just sitting in this cycle of shame. And there can be, you know, I say this with caution. This is, there's truly nothing worse than an eating disorder. and I believe it is such a colossal waste of time and often happens to really smart people

who have so many better things they could be doing with their time. So I say it with this caveat, but there could be a power to anorexia. There could be a real sense of, you know, accomplishment to it that is, of course, grotesque and deeply disturbed, but bulimia, there is none of that. It is just you are mired and shame. You are walking around feeling like everything you do

is just you are a loser of failure. It is, it feels awful. And I think I couldn't tolerate that anymore. I lost a tooth from bulimia. This was on a, you know, a flight to do a really intense press trip. And I, you know, a number of things had kind of collided at once. And I think it was just like, okay, I have to deal. I can't avoid this anymore. I have to deal with it. It's time. My body finally, finally was just saying, I can't have you betray me anymore. Hey, you're going to have to listen. I mean, thank God for my body. It finally said, we're done. We're done. Can I ask you what I hope doesn't sound like an ignorant question. Sure. When you were in the grip of your eating disorders, did you feel physically weak? Yeah, exhausted. I'd also be sort of, you know, during the bulimia phase, it was, you know, I'd run 13 miles multiple days a week. And so it was constantly kind of in this state of exhaustion, which I think was helpful in avoiding emotion. because there was no time, there was no space to kind of face anything. I'd feel the anxiety build up and then a purge and then I'd feel kind of a relief and I'd

feel so tired that I'd fall asleep, you know, and this would be, I mean, throughout, I would purge many times a day. This is, you know, but there was just, I was operating from such a place of phenomenal exhaustion that there was no time to go, oh, wow, I really don't like much of my life and how do I put it on a path that I do like. and, you know, there was no space to consider anything else because it was just perpetuating the cycle, the addiction. Wow. Thank you for explaining it like that. Yeah. So what was the first step in your recovery? Was it therapy? Or was it a decision that you made internally? It was, it was a therapist that did not kind of work out with that therapist, which I also think is key. You've got to find the right person. But then I did find the right person in, I was on a shoot in Toronto and I found an amazing therapist who did a,

a blend of dialectical behavioral therapy and schema therapy or schema-based therapy. I don't know the exact name. And that worked really effectively for me. It's very pen and paper. You're very much, you know, a scientist experimenting with your life and just getting it all out on the page in terms of like there's a lot of different methods and homework every day that you're doing. And that was transformative for me. I don't know if I would have recovered if I hadn't had those forms of therapy. and I also unfortunately don't think they would work for everyone,

but I think if you have a personality type similar to mine, that's the way to go. I think that therapist and those forms of therapy were transformative. Was this the therapist who asked you to consider what good your eating disorder was doing for you? Yes, that's exactly it. I found that fascinating. Isn't it so intriguing? Very early on in recovery, because I'm sitting there assuming, okay,

or I've hated sort of my body for so long and I've hated it just there's so much, there's so much complexity there. How do I then turn this eating disorder into the villain so I can get over it? That's what I thought would be the case. And instead he's saying maybe the first session, you know, what value does your eating disorder bring you? And I'm sitting there going, I'm paying you good money to get over this. I don't want to know what value it brings me. Like, help me get over it.

And he's saying, well, it's actually very, very important that you find the value because we need to find something of equal or greater value to bring in because there will be a voice. There's going to be a void in your life when this goes away. And it is going to be, you're going to need something to fill it. And it was fascinating to sit there and go, okay, what value has it offered me and to piece that together and to really, I mentioned earlier, sort of appreciating it. And it was a key part of recovery? Is it appropriate to ask you what that was? Let's see if I can remember. Well, you know, I sort of touched on this, but I didn't have space for my emotional experience, which I think was too much for me to carry at that time.

I don't think I was at a place where, you know, certainly at 11, 12, 13, if I'm going, if I accept the reality, okay, my mom taught me an eating disorder. My mom's teaching me that is like, honey, you've got to leave. Where to? Where do you go at 11? So it was kind of a, it was a protection. Yes. I think it was protection from the weight of fame, from the confusion of having an identity that was not my own, that was so public. facing and feeling like my own identity was faced by no one. I mean, no parent, no adult figure,

no, there was no one. I think that's, while anecdotal, I think it's very common for people who grow up in the spotlight where it's just you are a product, you are a good and you're viewed as that, you know, even if people are well-intentioned, it's just really, really, it's tricky for people to separate fame from a person. Like, it's tough. I'm very moved by that. This failure, quote unquote, specifically addresses your slip-ups in recovery. And I think that it's very important for people to know this, that it's not linear. Authentic recovery can never be linear.

So tell us a little bit about those slip-ups and what they taught you. So this is another kind of aspect early on in recovery therapist had said, he'd give me a pamphlet and told me the importance of not letting slips become slides. He said, this is not going to be, you know, one-stop shop. You say you're ready to recover and then that's all that it takes is just conviction and determination and strong. You're good. Discipline.

Discipline. Yeah. Yeah. Especially, you know, to a person with an eating disorder. Like there is that discipline is so much a part of kind of the dysfunction of it that to assume that discipline is all you need and then to have a slip up. It's so common. Also, black and white thinking is really common for people who experience disordered eating.

It's so common for that person to go, oh, I've had a slip. I'm a failure. It's all gone to waste. Okay, I'm off the wagon. So I might as well just have another slip and another and another because now I'm a failure. So this is how I identify. So I'm a failure. And you're just, again, perpetuating that cycle and you're stuck in it and just kind of mired in it.

And he emphasized the importance of not letting slips become slides. So when you have a slip, you sit with yourself and you go, what can I learn from this? If you have a slip of failure, you go, what is this telling me so that I can prevent it from happening again? What is all the information that I can glean from this? This is actually useful for me. That truly, yeah, changed my life. There were slips. There were many slips.

But being able to go, I don't have to let this become a slide every single time. what can I glean from this? I will take my slip. I would literally sit and I'd say, okay, I had four slips this week. Let's get to the bottom of them. And we would explore all of those slips in depth. And, you know,

what were the vulnerability factors surrounding those slips? And why did this happen when? And it was such a useful part of the process. All failure is data acquisition, I often say. Brilliant. The perfect example of it. Brilliant.

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Checking in with my body. It's sort of buzzing right now. It feels pleasant. It feels safe. That's great. It feels really safe. I notice if I feel constricted or if I feel my body feels a no. And so much of my life, going back to kind of the accommodating and the people pleasing and all of that, was about suppressing my no.

and how can I, oh, I feel it. I feel the rage. Wow. I feel it in my face. This is how I'm in touch with my body. I started listening to it and then it's like, it's tricky. When you start telling your body, when you start really listening to it, it goes, okay, here you go. And it like throws you so much and you go, oh, can I handle this?

Yes. And we can, you know, we can, but it's, but it doesn't mean it's not intense. And so, you know, thinking back to those times when it would be so much about, you know, how can I turn my know into somebody else. It was more important to make my know into any. Anybody else is yes. It didn't even matter if I respect that person, liked that person. It was just about accommodating them and being more convenient for them. And now I listen to my nose. That is so fucking incredible. I feel this interview is just, it's so serendipitous. Like everything that you are saying is feeding directly into my soul. Oh my God. I'm so glad to hear it. Oh, my God. Thank you. I feel like.

like, not only do we speak the same language, you elevate the language that I try to speak. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Thank you. Is there a no coming to mind, whether or not you want to share, but is there something coming to my? Okay, okay. So for years, I didn't have a voice. I thought I did, but it wasn't my voice. And I was in a very dysfunctional, emotionally abusive, romantic relationship. And I used to get tonsilitis a lot. And it was only afterwards that I made the connection that I was like, oh, that's because I literally kept losing my voice. And recently, I was lucky enough to go, bear with me, to this Swiss wellness clinic. Okay, I'm in.

And this woman, she was a bio-energetic medical expert. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but she was amazing. And I walked into her room and she said, oh, you're very tight here. And she, like, clutched her own neck. She was like, you're so tight here. You're breathing from your chat. You're not breathing properly.

and she basically identified something that I'd live with all of my life without knowing, which is that I wasn't sufficiently in my body. I wasn't fueling my body with enough air in order to be able to speak. She said, you actually have a very deep voice. And she got me to do these rounds of breathing. And my voice, literally, I became like Old Man River. I was like, but it felt so rooted. Embodied.

Embodied is the word. Yes. And I was like, this is my voice. And I feel so at one. the earth. Wow. It was an extraordinary revelation. Wow. So was your voice quite different before? Was it sort of? Yeah. Well, I feel like it's got deeper. Maybe Hannah the producer can tell me what it has. But it was, it just felt in my, trapped in my chest. It was like I was scared, literally scared of going deeper. It's like coming from a sturdier kind of place. Yes. Wow. Wow. And like you,

although we have different life paths, I was just an extreme people pleaser. And it meant that I lost all connection with my own desires. And I ended up saying yes to really unhealthy things. And spoiler alert, that ended in divorce and all of that sort of stuff. And now I'm remarried to someone who I really feel able to communicate with. And I haven't had tonsillitis touchwood since. Wow. Wow. It's incredible what our bodies tell us. Yes. Wow. And that piece around rage. Yes. Again, I thought I was sad for so long. And then my best friend, the therapist, was like, do you think you're sad or do you think it's an acceptable mask for what you're actually feeling? Yes.

Which was anger. Yes. Certain things are allowed, but heaven forbid a woman feel rage. There's all these quote, hell has not, what is it? Have no fury like a woman scorned? Yeah, it's like, yeah, damn fucking straight. I know. Yes. Watch out.

Watch us. Exactly. Instead it's just this thing that's like, oh, we can't be a scorned woman. No, we are scorned. Yes. We're angry. Yes. Fucking right.

Yeah. Oh, Jeanette, this is the most amazing conversation of all time. Thank you. Thank you. Your final failure is relationships. Yes. I can't wait to get into this because it's got such a happy ending. Spoiler alert.

But failed relationships, what did they teach you? Oh, my God. Well, at the time, you know, there's so much, I would have this kind of this feeling when I would be at the, on the cusp of a new relationship, or it would be this instant attraction. And it was this all-consuming, I have to be with that person now. Now, now, now, now, more, more, more. Please, please, please. And the relationships would really start out with a deep, deep intensity.

There's also a real kind of certain kind of person I would tend to fall for. But there was just so much dysfunction, so much dysfunction, like an amount that's embarrassing to admit that I think, I actually think a lot of us experience this level of dysfunction. But I think, again, we're kind of just tiptoeing around it and not really talking about it. But it was real chaos and real kind of shameful behavior, I think, on both of our parts, certainly on mine. I'll own mine. But I just had this feeling like something's not right, ultimate. Like underneath, I was just like, this is not how I want a relationship to look. This is too reminiscent, not, you know, not where my parents' relationship. It didn't go that far, but it went too far. And it didn't feel like what I wanted from a relationship,

even remotely. I wanted something healthy. I wanted something sturdy. I wanted something that felt really like we were both growing separately as individuals and together. And that was not the experience. I finally just started getting like honestly self-help books. And I would just kind of see myself in all these relational patterns and, you know, taming your, I think there's one called like, taming your outer child and books on whatever, codependency, all these different kind of potential issues in relationships. And I took that really seriously. And as I remember the relationship that I was in when I kind of started getting all these books and I could really feel the fear in him as I was getting these books because it was like, oh, you could sense kind of a threat. Oh, what does this mean?

And I completely understand that. I empathize with that. It can be, oh, this person's changing. will I be safe, you know? But ultimately I remember taking kind of a, I love a list. And I had taken a list to him of like, here's the things that I wish were different. I wish it was this, this, this, I wish I were more this way. I wish we were more this way. And then he said, well, I kind of see a path too for the relationship. And he just like drew me a little figure. And it was like, it sounds really, I was going to say it sounds worse than it was, but maybe it's not the case. It was literally like a doodle of just like a rainbow. And it's like, and then, you know, we're there at the end with kind of a pot of gold. He's sounding worse than he was. He was a really, really, really, he was a deeply

kind person. But right then it was just like that sinking feeling in my gut. And I know, okay, this is got it. This is not going to, this is not somebody who wants to do the work who's willing to work with me. I'm not saying that a relationship has to be from the game. get-go perfect roses and daisies. But I'm saying it has to be somebody who's willing to find a common language and a common engine that will get us through conflict. You have to be able to resolve conflict effectively as a couple or it's just not going to work because there is going to be conflict.

And there's people say, there's people who I know who say like, oh, we never have conflict. You're hiding shit. You're suppressing. You are. You are in denial. You are lying. And also there's this element of, have you heard of walkaway wife syndrome? No, tell me more.

Okay. It's sort of this idea. that you have cried so many tears throughout the course of the relationship that by the time you are ready to leave, you're wiped out. You're almost stone cold. Oh my God. Right? I was a walk away. Right. I feel like it's so common for for us women because we've tried we've tried everything. We can. We've said what we need as many ways as we know how, as many times as we know how we have said it and said it and said it and said it. Then we feel needy and we feel like we're too much for saying, uh, can you, can you, can, what if you just please or how about, and then you're

trying to change yourself to be more accommodating for him. Meanwhile, no changes are happening. I mean, not always the case, but a lot of the times. And then it gets to a point where it's, okay, you know what, I, I am so emotionally exhausted and depleted that I have literally nothing left to give. So I guess now I have to leave because I feel nothing for you anymore. I feel nothing. And that was the case for me, every relationship that I left. It got to a point where there were, there were no tears left. There was no pain left. It was just a very kind of almost stoic breakup that was confusing to them because then they're going, wait, what? What's happened? And it's what's happened? The past year and a half has happened. Have you not been here? You were here too. It's been so painful. It's been so painful. And of course, there are great moments as well. You wouldn't be in it. But there's there's so much pain that's just brutal. And so I think those realities, the walkaway wife syndrome and then I need somebody who can kind of resolve conflict with me and be willing to be in the trenches with me was transformative. And also, somebody who's compatible. Like, it's so basic. And yet I think we overlook it and think that we can wedge

ourselves in or maybe potentially get them to wedge into what we need. And it just doesn't, it's just, you've got to be similar in some key ways or it's not going to work. I really, I believe that. The walkaway wife syndrome has explained something to me that I really struggled with in myself because I have felt shame around the fact that I was, able to leave. And you're so right to identify that numbness. It wasn't a lack of feeling it was having felt too much. For too long. Yes. You're wiped out. Yes. You're exhausted. Let me ask you something else about a therapy adjacent, which I think part of my journey has been parenting my inner child. I think part of the reason I'm not a parent in the conventional biological sense

is potentially because I needed to do that work before I was ready for the romantic relationship that I'm now in, which is one of equals. Do you feel you went on that journey too? A hundred percent. Yeah. Inner child work was key for me. Have you ever done the artist's way? I haven't. And I've got an inner resistance to it and I'm not sure why. Really? Yes. I know you've done it several times. Yeah. Wait. Yes. I've done it three times. I'm like, I'm embarrassed. The third time I did it with a friend and she like stopped, you know, six weeks in or something. She's like, oh, I stopped and And I was like, me too, because I was too embarrassed to say that I was doing it for a third time. I think it's just that do you have to get up and write three pages?

Yes, yeah. The thing is that my life already, I have so much writing and so much work in it. Not that it's work. It's so interesting. The resistance I have is interesting. Fascinate. But that's another podcast episode. I'm really curious.

I hope to offline with you about that. But yeah, the morning pages are very much just like stream of consciousness. You can't, the idea is if you can't even, just don't even pause your pen. Just kind of keep it flying. It can even be, it can be complete, you know, I took a sip of tea. Why am I writing this? I hate that I'm writing this. This is so boring.

I have to write so much for work already. This is, you know, whatever. And you're just kind of getting, the idea being you're getting out of your system, the things that are rattled, we'll be rattling around all day anyway. So might as well get them out on the page. Ultimately, the way I view it is really a course in inner child healing. What can you tell us about your partner who you've been with for nine years? He's my best friend. I'll check in with my body. He's my best friend. I mentioned earlier sort of this instinct of that I'd had with previous partners. It doesn't even feel like the appropriate term, to be honest. But with people that I'd been with where there was that instinct of like, I have to be with them now. It was this urgency. I met him through a mutual friend. And I was instantly, extremely attracted to him, but had a sense of.

in my body. There was zero urgency. Is this from somebody who had to hijack nervous system their whole life? Like, further to not be urgency is odd. That's why I noticed it. No urgency. And this sense of, this person is very significant to my life. I don't know how. I don't have to know how. I don't have to know when. That's fine. This person is significant. And then, you know, we were friends and we'd kind of hang out in group settings and then we'd actually lost touch for over a year. And then he'd called me out of the blue. I thought it was a butthile because I hadn't heard from him

and so long. I thought that's so random. And then he called me a second time. And I honestly can't remember whether I picked up when we spoke then or whether we reconnected later, but then we got coffee and we talked for like four hours

and we've been together for nine years. Nine years, that's crazy. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. It makes me feel calm when you talk about him. I'm lucky enough to have met him because he's actually here. He does have a very calm aura.

Doesn't he? Yes. Yes, really, he's a really sturdy person. He's that person for all of his, he's the person that every one of his friends goes to for like, I need advice. I need advice. Like he's, he's, everyone's sort of rock. Jeanette, I've adored every second of this conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. For trusting me and for opening up in your beautiful, eloquent, compassionate, heart-led way. I don't for a second take it for granted. And I am so great. grateful for the existence of you. Thank you. You too. You too. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Original Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.