How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jesse Tyler Ferguson - ‘I was caught stealing gay porn'

Episode Date: July 3, 2024

This week: it’s Mitch from Modern Family! On screen, Jesse Tyler Ferguson brought to life one of the most beloved comic roles in recent years but he’s also a Tony-award winning theatre actor, not to mention host of the wonderful Dinner’s On Me podcast. Jesse was so easy to talk to - I felt I could ask him anything, and frequently did. We chat about his adolescent failures at sport when it seemed to be all his dad wanted from him, and this leads us into a deeply moving discussion about his own sexuality. The story of how his parents became aware that their son was gay is one that will stay with you for a long time - and although it contains its fair share of trauma, it is delivered, as ever, with Jesse’s trademark black humour. We also speak about his inability not to read reviews and his abject failure to meditate (one I can relate to). Plus: fascinating chats about surrogacy, social anxiety and whether straight actors should ‘play gay’. As always, I’m desperate to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more.  Listen to ‘Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson’ here: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/dinners-on-me-with-jesse-tyler-ferguson/id1683905652 Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com  Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly   Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production.   Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance. Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash ymx. Hello and welcome to How To Fail with me, author and broadcaster Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we flip the traditional interview format on its head, celebrating

failure rather than success. Every episode, I ask a very special guest to discuss three failures and how they emerged on the other side to be the person we see today. Before we begin, I just wanted to remind you about my subscriber series where Jesse and I look at your questions and give our advice. I always kind of dread going to Hollywood events where specifically there's other people who I really admire. I always feel like I'm saying the wrong thing. But the thing is, and I find such comfort in this, almost every single person who's also at that event has the same anxiety. Today we'll be covering how one listener picked himself up after a self-professed business

failure and reached for the stars with amazing results. How another listener discovered she was gay at the age of 33 and should or can anxiety be overcome? And we'd love to hear from you. Follow the link in the podcast notes to share your failures or questions. Jesse Tyler Ferguson's family had no connection with the performing arts. His dad was a microbiologist for the military, his mother an OB-GYN nurse. But as a child growing up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, he was taken to see a production of Alice in Wonderland. And that was that. He joined the Children's Theatre at the age of eight, and after high school, attended the American Musical and Dramatic Academy in New York.

He became an acclaimed Broadway actor, appearing in a variety of plays including On the Town, A Winter's Tale and Spamalot. Recently, he won a Tony Award for his starring role in the 2022 Broadway revival of Richard Greenberg's Take Me Out. But the part for which Ferguson arguably remains most famous is that of Mitchell Pritchett, the highly-strung lawyer in a long-term gay relationship on the hugely popular TV sitcom Modern Family. It was a role that earned him five consecutive Emmy nominations, a legion of fans, and much critical acclaim. During its first season, Time magazine declared Modern Family to be the second-best American television series of all time, just behind Mad Men and ahead of Breaking Bad. His other roles include

the movie Cocaine Bear, an appearance in the Taylor Swift music video for You Need to Calm Down, and most importantly, being a father to two young boys with his husband, the lawyer Justin Makita. He also has a successful podcast, Dinners on Me. Despite appearing to be exceptionally gifted at almost everything he turns his hand to, Ferguson insists he doesn't feel that's the case. It's okay to excel at certain things and not others, he says. That's when I started booking work because I was being truthful to the talents I had. Jesse Tyler Ferguson, welcome to How to Fail.

Thank you. My husband, I think, is an even bigger modern family fan than I am and is extremely excited that this is happening. But I really liked that quote that you said about being truthful to the talents you actually have rather than trying to be brilliant at everything. How long did it take you to be at peace with that? Because as a musical theatre kid, you're kind of encouraged to be good in all areas, aren't you? I gave it my best effort to be really good at everything. I tried to be a triple threat. But I found as I was actually in the marketplace and I was auditioning for things and I was

doing lots of things really poorly, I realised if I could just focus on the things that I do really well, put my energy into that, I imagine I'll get better response. And that was exactly what happened. And so I realised I was enough with myself. I'd rather do one thing really, really well than a lot of things sort of mediocre. I mentioned that production of Alice in Wonderland that you went to as a child. What was it about that production that made you fall in love, do you think? I was a very shy kid growing up and I was bullied a lot as a child. There was something about being on stage that felt like a safe space that you could be weird and be quirky and yet you weren't singled out for that in a bad way. It was like you're singled out

in a celebratory way. We're going to come on to your childhood in more detail because it forms part of one of your failures, but I want to spool forwards now and talk about your first experiences as a professional actor. And specifically one occasion where you turned a part down and people thought you were unhinged for doing it at the time.

And it was spam a lot. Can you tell us that story? Because it taught you something very instructive about gut instinct, didn't it? Yes, it was the original Broadway production that was almost 20 years ago. I had at the same time been workshopping another Broadway musical called

the 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. This musical had very scrappy beginnings. We started workshopping the show in the Berkshires at a cafeteria. We used to, our stage was a cafeteria of a school. We got paid, I think, maybe $100 a week during the workshops. Like we really, I went into debt putting the show together, but it happened to be with one of the composers that I have always wanted to work with, William Finn. The very first Broadway show I saw was Falsettos by William Finn. I remember leaving that theater thinking, if I ever get to work with this man, then

I will have made it. So here I am working on a new show with one of my idols, and yet I was being paid nothing to do it. And I was doing it because I believed in it so much and I knew that it had a bigger life. And sure enough, it ended up coming into New York City and going to an off Broadway theater second stage. At the same time, they were casting Spamalot, which was going to be directed by Mike Nichols.

And it was going to star David Hyde Pierce in Hank Azaria and Tim Curry. Obviously this was going to be a huge hit. Obviously it was going to go to Broadway and they were creating this ensemble of characters. And so I threw my name into the ring and I, well, my agents threw my name into the ring and I auditioned for the show.

And you know, at the time I didn't, Spelling Bee was not a surefire thing that it was coming into New York. And so I was keeping my options open and I just kept getting farther and farther in the process. And I ended up getting farther and farther in the process and I ended up getting a An offer to do the show from Mike Nichols, you know The Mike Nichols and who was making his return to theater after like 30 years of not directing a show on on Broadway

it was all very exciting and Around the same time it was looking like spelling bee was actually going to come into New York. And so I had to make a decision on which show I was going to stick with. And I could not imagine stepping aside and letting another actor take over all of the hard work I had put into creating this character from scratch. And, you know, now I had the opportunity to do it in New York and show New York audiences what I'd been working so hard on or do spam a lot. And I chose to do Spelling Bee

and everyone thought I was insane. I'm now 40, almost 48 years old. I am 48 years old. I don't think I would have done the same thing now. I think I would have not been nearly as brave. But at the time I was in my early twenties and I was like, I know what I'm doing. I really feel like this is the right thing to do.

And Mike Nichols actually called me on my cell phone to ask me why I was turning down Spamlot because, you know, it took them a very long time to put this cast together and they were excited by me, which was very flattering. And I explained to him sort of what I just explained to you, that this was a show. I was going to work on a show that I had been putting my blood, sweat, and tears into and had gone into debt doing, and I needed to see it through. I think artist to artist, you can't really argue with that. And so he said, okay, we wish you well.

And the casting director of Spam Law was like, this was, I think you probably burned a bridge with the Spam, I don't know if this was a great idea. My agents and managers are all very nervous. But Spelling Bee ended up getting great reviews, transferring to Broadway. And we ended up being nominated for Tony Awards against Spamalot.

And we were both, you know, both shows were up for best musical that year. I remember after the nominations came out, you know, a lot of people were curious to see what the competition was. And I was doing my performance of Spelling Bee and I looked down in the audience and Mike Nichols was sitting there

watching me do Spelling Bee. And of course I had just an immediate rock in my stomach. I was just petrified. I went back to my dressing room after the show and a few moments later there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and Mark Nichols was standing there with his arms outstretched to me and he gave me the biggest hug and he said, always trust your instincts.

It was so gratifying because this is the man who they told me would, you know, blacklist me basically. A little bit after that, they were doing a production of Spam Lot at the Hollywood Bowl and they asked me to play the part that David Hyde Pierce had played on Broadway. And I ended up doing it. And Eric Idle was part of that production.

And a lot of the original cast members were part of that production. And so I got to end up doing it and becoming friends with Eric Idle, who I ran into last night and he was so lovely with me. But it was a sign that like these things do come around when they're supposed to. And I ended up playing a role at Spam Law, just not in the way that I thought I was going to.

What a story. But it felt like it was the universe telling me that that was the right thing to do. A hundred percent. And I, and I understand also that your role in Spelling Bee was the thing that brought you your first TV role, which also ended up with you as Mitchell in Modern Family. And if you'll allow me a couple of questions about Modern Family, even though I know your career is so much bigger than that, but it was such an important show. And as well as being important, obviously it was vastly entertaining and it was funny and it

was moving and it was just all of the things that you want. I wanted to ask you how important it was for you personally portraying, I think it was one of the first times, if not the first time, that a network had put a long-term committed gay couple with a kid like on prime time TV. How important was that for you? I think you're right, at least in the sense of a comedy. committed gay couple with a kid, like on prime time TV. How important was that for you? I think you're right. At least in the sense of a comedy. Yeah, when you meet Cam and Mitch in the very first episode of Modern Family, we're coming

back from adopting our child. So you're like, you're being dropped right into the deep end of this relationship. I mean, they're not only a long time committed couple, but they are now first time parents. And that's where we're starting with them. So there was so much comedy, not just around who they were as people, but also something that was incredibly relatable. It's like who they were as first time parents.

And I love that that's kind of where we led. The comedy was really about them trying to figure out how to be parents. And then of course the hysterics and the comedy behind that and just them being who they are. When I read the script of Modern Family, I knew immediately that this would be an opportunity for visibility for the gay community.

At that time in the States, we were, I think there was maybe six States where you could be married as a same-sex couple. And we were also in the States, we were, I think there was maybe six States where you could be married as a same sex couple. And we were also in the throes of Proposition 8 had just happened in California, which took rights away from same sex couples. So rights have been revoked in my own home state that I was living in at that time.

And so it was a very hot button topic. And the most surefire way to reach people is through pop culture and through their TVs right now. Like we will be in so many people's living rooms across America. And it's such a great opportunity to let people get to know a gay couple and fall in love with them. And sure enough, that is what happened. And I do know that because I ended up going with my husband to talk with with congressmen and senators and DC and we know we talked to many people about trying to

obtain marriage equality and we were you know Barack Obama who was the president of the time we actually got to talk to him about it and like you know things were happening things were moving but almost all of them referenced modern family as being a really important part of that movement. So again, my instincts were correct that this was gonna be something that was a pop culture touchstone for many people. And for me, the challenging thing was how to do the job

and not buckle under that pressure. Eric and I both felt extreme pressure at different times and we had to relieve ourselves of that and remind ourselves, you know, first and foremost, we're here to make people laugh. And that's our objective. And if they take something else away with that, then that's great.

I had a little bit of an extra pressure on me just because not only was I part of this gay couple on television, but in real life, I was the one who was living as a gay man. So I felt like there was a lot of expectations from the community put on my shoulders and I had to relieve myself of that and say, you know, my job is to make this one person really relatable and really truthful. I can't be in charge of the entire community. Once I sort of took that pressure off of myself to be the voice for an entire community, I think I was able to sort of breathe

into that character in a different way. Erica, you mentioned there who played Cam is straight. And I wonder what you think now because times really have shifted and evolved about straight actors playing gay. I mean, Eric's not the only one, there's your Matt Damon, there's your Jake Gyllenhaals. What do you think about that now? Jason Vale I think that's always been a conversation that has been had. I think the social media, it's more amplified now and that it catches a little more quickly. People who are upset with that casting have a bit more of a voice

and that's heard a little bit more widely. You know, I've talked with Eric about this. If Modern Family was being cast today, he probably wouldn't be as heavily considered as he was almost 15 years ago when they were first casting the show. I was cast before Eric was. I read with several different actors to play Cam, and many of them were gay, some of them were straight,

people of different colors and different ethnicities, and there was no denying that Eric and I had chemistry, and there was already an undercurrent of love there. And when I think about the way the universe rewards you and tells you you're doing the right thing, I think back to my first meeting with Eric outside of our audition, when he got the role, we decided to meet and get to know one another

because we're gonna be playing spouses. We met for coffee at a coffee shop near me in Silver Lake and there was all these people around us with boxes of chocolates and roses and we realized it was Valentine's Day. We were both single and neither one of us had any reason to celebrate Valentine's Day. And yet here we were meeting for the first time

on Valentine's Day. And I felt like that was the universe really saying, yes, yes, you two are meant to be together. It's meant to be you. So, when people are asking me now, like what do you think about straight actors playing gay? I think, you know, there needs to be a better job of looking for places for that opportunity to be given.

I think people need to be able to, they need to be able to get into the door in an easier way. I don't think, I think there's still struggle for, for gay and trans actors to get inside the room, to even show what they can do. I think sometimes these decisions are made hastily and I think roles are being given to straight actors who they think are better for the box office

and they're gonna be a more surefire thing. I think that the roles are handed out a little bit more casually and I think the opportunity's not always there. And I do feel for me saying, I only want gay actors playing gay roles, it's a complete contradiction to what I want in my life. I don't want to just be seen as gay characters.

I would love to play straight roles. And I can't say only straight actors should play straight roles and the gay actors play gay roles, because that's not what I believe. I'm an actor, I can play different parts. And I still truly believe that. But I do think that the industry could do a better job of finding opportunity for these people to be considered.

LARISA Final question before we get onto your failures. Modern Family, the clue is in the title. You did become a family of sorts. And I really love your podcast and as on me, and I particularly love it when you interview your former co-stars from Modern Family because there is such a special dynamic. And Modern Family came to an end just before the pandemic hit. And I just wonder what that experience of isolation was like, having spent so much time with these beloved people every single day. And whether you're still in touch with them now, do you have a family WhatsApp group? We do. Do group? We do. Do you?

We do, yeah. What's it called? Well, not WhatsApp, but it's, I think it's just called, well, we have modern family adults, like we have just the six adults, and then there's a whole group one as well. And sometimes Sarah Hyland, she like, she's, you know, she is an adult,

but she's technically one of the kids on the show. She's sneaked her way into some of the adult conversations. Um, but that last season of Modern Family, season 11 was sort of a bonus season for us. We were prepared to finish at season 10 and then the opportunity was given to us to continue. So we all wanted to do one more season and really truly make it our last,

but then enjoy that last season knowing that it was going to be our last. Now our change honors L.M. Montgomery along with Anne of Green Gables, the ambitious and inquisitive orphan every generation has embraced as its own. These special edition $1 circulation coins celebrate a timeless storyteller and story. The power of imagination and the place that Montgomery's PEI holds in our hearts. Find the L.M. Montgomery $1 coin today. It's Kathy Burke here.

Can I ask you something? How do you wanna die? Is that a bit forward? Well you clearly haven't been listening to our podcast Where There's a Will There's a Wake. Every week I have an add to some of our favorite people about their fantasy funeral and my god we've had some fabulous guests through my deathly doors including Danny Dyer, Dawn French and Sir Steve McQueen from Sony Music Entertainment. Where there's a will, there's a way. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's get on to your first failure, which is that as a kid, you had a failure, conspicuous failure to learn how to play soccer. And you say, and really any sport, when it seemed to be all my dad wanted from me. Yeah. So you tried, did you? You tried to be sporty. I did. I did. I think, you know, for my parents, as they were,

in hindsight, I know that they knew that they had a gay kid on their hands. And they were trying to figure out how to navigate that. I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. At that time, it was a very red state. Sports was everything. There was not really a great art scene there beyond whatever community theater that I ended up joining.

And for my dad, I was a first born of three kids. And for my dad, I think I was the son he was excited to have, and he wanted him to play sports and do the things that he did as a kid. And I just did not have any desire, my heart was not in it. And I remember specifically with soccer, there might have been a point when someone tried to explain the rules to me, but I was not absorbing anything. And I just remember being so confused by what we were doing. And I would go to these... I almost called them rehearsals.

These practices. I mean, that's the first thing. They were probably flagged that it wasn't for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, not for me. But I would go to these practices in the park, they put out the cones and we would do games. And I remember my dad yelling from the sidelines and I was always running the wrong way. And there probably was like disappointment from him to like,

oh gosh, he's not doing what I thought he was gonna be able to do. But it all came to a head with my first official game. I was running out to the field with my, I was gonna say cast, team. And- In your costume. Yeah, in my costume.

And I tripped over a sprinkler and the entire team ran over me. And I remember just being embarrassed and devastated. And I talk about the universe a lot, but I feel like it was the universe saying, I gotcha, let's get you out of the situation. And I didn't have to play the game that day. I remember I sat on the sidelines with my dad

and just watched the game. And now as a father myself, you know, my son, I take him to soccer practice and I sit on the sidelines and I watch him try and figure out this game. And he's in this place where he's like, he's actually way more into it than I ever was. But he's in this place where he's disappointed that people aren't sharing the ball. And I have to explain to him, well, that's part of the game is for people to get the ball away from you. And you have to try and get it back.

And, you know, we're also the place where it's like we're talking about sharing and, you know, and it's confusing for him. Like, well, you told me to share and now you're telling me that it's okay to take this up all the way. So we're in this like really confusing place with it. And I'm, I have my own set of frustrations watching him trying to figure out the game. So I have a bit of compassion for my dad in hindsight watching my son try and figure out this game. But I think ultimately he's going to either respond to it and I'm, he's going to be great

at it or he's not. And I'm going to find something else for him to do. Like I recognize myself and my son, but I also see him already like being better at this thing than I was. How old are your sons? Almost four and two. Okay. So when you trip over the sprinkler and your entire team runs over you to get to the pitch, how

aware are you at that stage that this is disappointing your father in some way? How much do you internalize that? I mean, it's always the way you remember it is probably not as accurate as the way it actually happened. I mean, I was so young. The way I remember it is that, you know, I was sort of picked up and I remember being, I remember I was crying and I feel like maybe I even had a bit of a bloody lip. And I remember my dad taking care of me

and saying, you know, you can sit this one out. We'll just watch the game. But I feel like I remember sitting with him knowing like, oh, this is not how he envisioned this day going at all. And like just being disappointed in myself and also maybe taking on a bit of his disappointment as we were watching these other kids do this thing

that I think he was hoping I'd be able to do. I heard you tell the story of how your sexual identity manifested itself with your parents on another podcast. In fact, it was Judy Bowen's podcast, Quitters, which is such a great theme for a podcast. I was like, damn it, someone else took that idea. You told this story in a way that was very compassionate and funny in parts, but also very painful. And I'm also aware, talking about this as a straight woman myself, there's a whole language around quote unquote coming out

that is not applied to straight people. A straight person never is expected to come out as straight. And so I want to preface this discussion by saying the language is inelegant. But would you mind exploring that with me? And what happened with you telling your parents or rather them being told on your behalf that you were gay? Yeah. The reality of the situation was I was caught stealing gay porn when I was very young. And I had been, I had stole it, you know, a few magazines before in the past.

And so I had a stash of, you know, this material at home. And, um, and I finally got caught stealing it. And I was brought into the back room of the store and they called the cops and they called my parents and they showed them my parents, the nature of the material. I remember, I remember that so specifically that that phrase, the nature of the material I was stealing. From there, there was a lot of just like awkward silence. Like we didn't talk about it, even though it was like this thing that was just lying out there that we, you know, was front and center, it was in the open and yet like no one knew how to talk about it.

I certainly didn't have the tools to talk about it. I was just, you know, a kid. My parents really didn't have the tools to talk about it. I remember going to a therapist and I think my parents were like, well, we'll have a therapist deal with this. And I just remember it sort of being a bit futile. Like it's sort of like, I think they were looking for someone to sort of give them some answers on how to deal with this or say, okay, we fixed it. You know, there wasn't like, I don't think there was ever, I don't think there was an open heart for them to like at that moment, say, okay, we'll just learn how to love this new version of our son that I think was always a suspicion of theirs, but never confirmed. So that was a kind of the first coming out for me, I feel. And how old were you then?

14, 15. You know, young. I was very young. And you ended up in front of a judge for stealing those magazines. Yes, yes. I had to go to court. I remember my mom with me at the courthouse and the crime was committed on like, you know, months before. And then like later they had to, you know, I was put in the system and I had to like wait

for my hearing date. And so I think in that time, there was a bit of healing that happened. My mom sort of just forgot about it or was less angry about it, you know, probably came to grips with it a bit and just, you know, obviously meditated on it herself. And she was easier on me.

I felt like there was a little bit of understanding and passion that she was giving to me. And then when we were at the courthouse that day, months later, she ran into one of her patients at the courthouse and it was like all that day one trauma was right back on the surface. And she was just really upset again and how embarrassing it was for the family and how embarrassed that she was

that she had to see something that she knew with her son at the courthouse. I was given community service for probably like three to six months or something. I chose to be a teacher's aide at a preschool, which was so much fun. I love kids and I ended up being a nanny later in my life. So I think it was the first time I sort of realized that I was actually really great with kids. And it was actually a really wonderful time, but it was community service.

I wasn't getting paid anything. And there was a piece of me that sort of feels like an example was made of me in a way. And I think if that happened now, I think it would have been handled differently. At least I hope it would have been. Yeah, I mean, I just feel so sad for you, even though you ended up discovering

that you were so great with kids, which I can completely imagine, but the amount of misplaced shame that must have been heaped upon you, that was not yours to own, must have been so difficult for you to unpack at 14. It was a really painful time for me. I felt very alone. I was never suicidal or anything, but I was definitely depressed. It also reconfirmed my desire to get out of Albuquerque. I was like, this place is not for me. They do not understand me in this part of the United States.

I need to get out. I need to go to New York. I need to take this passion that I know I have and go to the place where that passion's created, and that's New York City. I want to be on stage. I want to have life in theater. And so it did confirm that for me, which I'm really happy about. And it also motivated me to make that happen. It did confirm that for me, which I'm really happy about.

And it also motivated me to make that happen. Like I was, there was nothing that was gonna keep me from making a life for myself in New York City. And when I left home to go to school in New York, my parents and I hadn't ever had a conversation about my sexuality. And it was when there was space between us that those conversations started happening through letters and in safer ways, ways that felt safer for me at least. It was slow, but I think we got to a point where it was out there on the table.

And even though I felt like my dad had to be reminded a few times, he would ask me about girlfriends and I was like, dad had to be reminded a few times, I had to sort of, he would ask me about girlfriends and I was like, dad, we've done this before. And he'd be like, oh yeah, no, I remember, I remember. Which is just the way my dad is. But you know, I mean, fast forward two years later, they're both dancing at my wedding to Justin. So I, they have come a long way

and I'm really proud of them. And I feel like the process has to be part of it. You can't expect people to change overnight, but you also can't always accept that people are set in their ways. The excuse that, oh, I was raised a different way, I just don't think it's acceptable. I think that we all have the ability to change,

even if you're over 50 or over 60 or over 70, you can always become a better version of yourself. And I challenged my parents to do that, and they did. become a better version of yourself. And I challenged my parents to do that and they did. They became better versions of themselves and I'm really, really proud of both of them. Now you and I have something in common, which is that we're both married to men called Justin. And I have a theory that there are no bad Justins. I think it's a great name and it generally belongs to great people. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. And I wonder if I could ask you about your journey to parenthood.

Again, I am someone who has gone through ultimately unsuccessful fertility treatment, but we looked into egg donation, all of that, and the next step was surrogacy. And it is one of those things that the way it's talked about often in our media, it seems totally straightforward. But actually, there is so much emotion and pain that goes into that process. And I'm passionate about having these conversations and making them more mainstream. And so I would love to talk to you a bit about your journey to fatherhood through surrogacy and how it went. Yeah, it's one of that's obviously something that's going to be different for everyone.

I have gay couple friends who've gone through, who have gone through that process. I have straight friends who've gone through that process of surrogacy. It is the ultimate act of selflessness to be able to help another family have a child when they, when they want one so badly and can't have it on their own. We were open to adoption. We were open to other means. But for us, surrogacy really seemed like the first choice. My husband Justin was diagnosed with cancer.

He had non-Hodgkin's lymphoma when he was 13, 14 years old and his parents took him to a sperm bank before going through chemotherapy. So they had had the foresight to preserve his genetics and if he ever wanted to have kids in the future. And so we really felt like we wanted to honor that decision that they made. So surrogacy was for us obviously gonna be the first route.

And we were successful. And I am so grateful for our surrogate obviously going to be the first route. And we were successful. And I am so grateful for our surrogate who helped us through this process. I'm grateful to the egg donor who we've never met. I look at these kids, one of them looks so much like Justin and one of them looks so much like me. You know, it's something that can never be repaid.

It's quite remarkable. Our surrogate shared a story with us about having a pretty bad car accident when she was younger and surviving that and making a promise to herself that she wanted to help bring life to other people who wanted to have a family because she felt like her life was saved in that car accident.

And so for her, it was also a healing process. I'm so grateful and I hate that there's a stigma around it, specifically for women. I have a very, very, very close friend, Lizbeth Banks, who talks very openly about her surrogacy process. She told her kids, my mommy's tummy was broken, so we found another person who was able to bring you into this world.

I don't know. I just think it's such a beautiful, wonderful thing that there are people out there who are willing to do that for us. So beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And just to bring this failure to a close, although you might never have found your sporting prowess as a child, you are very into exercise though, aren't you? I've gotten more so as I've gotten older just because I want to try and stay in shape.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't you used to get up at 4am and do a Barry's before you went on set? Oh yes. When I was, yeah, modern family hours are very, very early and sometimes I would have to be in the makeup chair around 6.30 in the morning. And I lived about a 30 minute drive from the set. So I would occasionally wake up at like four in the morning, drive to a Barry's bootcamp that started at five,

close to the set, finish at six, get to my trailer by six, 10, shower, and then be in the makeup chair by 6.30. But then I was done working out for the day. And it was just a very, very, very early morning. Then by 3 p.m., I was exhausted and wanted to go to bed. It's bad. It's bad.

It's bad. Xtree Xtree, your favorite anime is getting a new season. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Lee-Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. Every week, you can listen in while we break down the latest pop culture news and dish on what new releases we can't get enough of.

We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on the anime effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Hi, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast, Dinner's On Me. I take some of my favorite people out to dinner,

including, yes, my modern family co-stars, like Ed O'Neill. I had friends in Organized Cry. Sofia Vergara. Why do you want to be corruptible? Julie Bowen. I used to be the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons. I was so damn bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight.

You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. Your second failure, which I'm not an actor, but I can entirely relate to this because I do write books. Okay. So your second failure is that even though for the longest time you try to be an actor who truly doesn't read their reviews, that you failed and you absolutely read all your reviews. Okay. So tell us why you tried not to. Like, did you have some stinking reviews that really upset you? Oh, I think we all have. I mean, if you're an actor, you've definitely read reviews that are not kind. And the thing about not kind reviews is you could have so many great ones and you're going to focus on the ones that critique to you. And that's kind of why I didn't want to read them,

because if you take the bad, you also have to take the good and you have to be critical about that. And I also found that even good reviews, specifically for a play, that you're actively doing, that's the tricky thing about being a theater actor is you do this thing, people come and critique it, they publish reviews, they're out there for the public consumption,

but then you still have to go on stage every night doing the thing that you've been critiqued about. And I found that even good reviews tended to fuck with me. Like I would think about all the things that people said that were great about me and like, oh, here I'm doing that thing that so-and-so loved and I wouldn't be present and I would be constantly taken out of my body.

So I thought the only thing I can do is not read reviews at all. I eventually read them. I think I read them close to the closing of the play, but I didn't read them when they were published. And then of course, then I wanted to read them, but I chose not to and it was really hard. And then it was torture for me as well

because I was just so curious. I wanted to know what was being said. This is and I wanted to read them, but I chose not to. And it was really hard. And then it was torture for me as well, because I was so curious. I wanted to know what was being said. This is why I decided to start reading reviews like I just need to hear it from the horse's mouth. Like I need to hear it as it was said. I don't want to hear it from someone who maybe is misquoting it. I just that's even more dangerous for me. So I started to read them as a protection to like protect myself

from people who are going to tell me anyways. But it's been hard. Yeah. Do you have a strategy now for reading any negativity and how you metabolize that? Have you come up with a coping mechanism? Because if you have, please can you tell me what to do? It is one of the things I remind myself of. It's like, look, if you're going to take stock in the good reviews and if they're gonna make you feel good, then if people are gonna say bad things about you,

are you gonna allow these to make you feel bad? I try and take the good reviews with a grain of salt as well as I would take the bad reviews. And that's been my strategy to try and not give too much attention to the good or the bad. I just feel like there's so many actors who say, oh, I don't read reviews. Those are the actors I always felt were so cool

and I just wanted to be like them. And I wanted to not have that outside influence. I feel like I'm always doing things the uncool way, like all the actors I really respect don't read reviews, don't watch themselves in their films. And I just can't do it. And so I feel like I wish I could, but I can't. And I feel like that's been a failure of mine.

Maybe I'll get better with it, with age, because I do think that there's something about protecting yourself from any feedback while you're working, especially if you're doing something that you're still working on, like a play. Like if you're still having to go out there and present this thing, it's best to trust yourself and not have that noise of an outside person. But I haven't gotten

there yet. I think it must be incredibly difficult because also the art in acting is understanding human nature. And in order to understand human nature, you have to be empathetic and you have to let things in. And so to insulate yourself from that completely and not to read any reviews seems counterintuitive. Right. So there's no question there. I just think it's an impossible conundrum and you're

navigating your way through it. Well, and usually, I mean, what happens is, I mean, everyone has insecurities. I have so many insecurities when I'm working specifically in live theater because you're doing it in front of a group of people and there are so many times you're like, oh, I wish I could do that better. And there are so many insecurities that I carry out with myself.

And it's one of the reasons I have stage fright, but I always feel like I didn't have that stage fright. Then there's no reason to do it. I feel like from that fear usually springs a very good performance. But usually the bad reviews are always pointing out the things that I was already nervous about with myself. So I feel like they always just confirm

what I was already kind of thinking anyway. So I don't know. It's like, sometimes I'm like, well, I already knew that. Do you genuinely get stage fright every single time? Every time before I step on stage, I get that anxiety of like, oh my God, can I really do this? And I feel like that fear is my friend though. I do think that that motivates me to be better.

I actually really find that adrenaline rush and that sense of, is this even possible to be really helpful in the long run? Well, you absolutely can do it because you've just won a Tony for it. Yeah. I wonder how that feels because you had, as I mentioned in the introduction, you had the succession of Emmy nominations, but sorry to rub it in. You didn't win one.

No, no. I mean, yeah, but it was, that was another thing. I never dreamed of being nominated for an Emmy. So that fact that it happened five times, I mean, there was a point by like the fifth one that I was like, okay, I think this one actually should go to me. Like every other year I was like, I'm not gonna get,

I'm not even in the running. But then there was like the last year, I was like, I actually kind of might deserve it this year. And then I didn't get it. For endurance, if nothing else, like an Emmy for endurance. For endurance, if nothing else. I remember Amy Poehler was constantly nominated for Parks and Recreation. And she, it was like her fifth or sixth time being nominated.

And she, you know, you have to go into these press tours after your nomination. And I read something she said to the reporters as she was like, oh, OK, I get it. Jokes on me. Ha ha ha. Nominated for another Emmy award. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. Like, I know I'm not going to win reporters, and she was like, oh, okay, I get it. Jokes on me, ha ha ha, nominated for another Emmy Award. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I know I'm not gonna win it, but okay, we're doing this again. But the Tony Award I did, I did win. But this is a perfect example of me being hard on myself.

The show I did, Take Me Out, was revival. It had been done almost 20 years earlier, and the person who played my role, Dennis O'Hare, won a Tony award for his performance. And so I went in and I saw it many times. I saw it three times and his performance lived vividly in my head. So one of my demons with doing that show was to, you know, create my own version of this character that I thought had already been done perfectly. And, you know, I did read in some of the reviews, like, oh, he wasn't as good as Dennis

O'Hare. And that was like my biggest fear going into it, that people were going to compare me to this genius who originated the role. So winning that Tony was very meaningful to me, because my biggest challenge was to make people see validity in my version of it, and they did. And I have since talked to Dennis O'Hara about it and have told him I can't believe that I got to play this role and also follow your footsteps and win a Tony for it. And we both agree that we both feel really bad for whoever's gonna do the next revival in the next 20 years

because the pressure's on. Where have you put the award, Jesse? It's over, it's just over here. My husband has ironically two Tony Awards himself for producing and one was nominated and won a Tony Award before I was even nominated. And I would joke with him, I was like, I've been in this business for 20 years

and have never even been nominated for a Tony Award. And then you just dip your toe in and your first thing that you produce, you get nominated for a Tony Award. And then you just dip your toe in and your first thing you produce, you get nominated for a Tony Award for producing and winning it. So. Irritating. How dare you.

It's really irritating, yeah. But we put them together, yes. Your final failure is meditation. Yes, I feel like this must be a common one. Do you get this one a lot? I've had it a couple of times before, but also it's funny because I fail at meditation as well. And you've spoken a lot about the universe and ditto,

I again, I also believe in the universe and things unfolding exactly as they should. And yet meditation, I just, is it just a waste of time, Jessie? Is it just a waste of time? I? Is it just a waste of time? I don't think it is because when I was really doing a good job with it, I did feel much more centered. Justin and I started to study Transcendental Meditation

because we had some friends who really enjoyed it. But it was hard because it required you to find three consecutive evenings where you could go to these classes. And it was when I was doing Modern Family and I had a hard time finding three days where I knew that I was gonna be available at like 4 p.m. till 6 p.m. was nearly impossible.

Somehow I found three days and I did it and I was so happy to have it behind me. I was like more relieved that I just had gotten, I found time to do the class. And then so then I was like, well now I got to actually do it. And I was really good about it for a while. And it was just one of those things, you know, with Translational Meditation, specifically, you're meant to meditate for 20 minutes in the morning and then 20 minutes in the evening. So that's 40 minutes of your day that you are meant to just sit there with your eyes closed, letting your mind turn off. And I was just finding that really, really hard.

And it got to the point where like, then I would only be doing one one of the 20 minute sessions a day. And then it was like, well, I did that every other day. And now it's been months since I've done it. And it's something I really want to get back to because I do feel like it was a grounding thing and it was something I actually did look forward to doing. But this was also, I was doing this before I had children and it's really hard.

And I have people who have kids who are really diligent about it and they find time to do it. And I'm trying to follow their footsteps and do a better job, but I just have not been good about it. Is it finding the time that you find harder or is it being able to switch your mind off?

It's both. I mean, with the morning meditation, it's like, well, I just woke up. I've just opened my eyes. Like you want me to close my eyes again for 20 minutes. Like I'm already thinking about all the things that I need to be doing as I've just opened my eyes. Like you want me to close my eyes again for 20 minutes. Like I'm already thinking about all the things that I need to be doing as I'm getting out of bed. And especially now with kids,

it's like they're gonna be waking up and we have an alarm clock in my son's room. It's a stop light. And so it's when it goes from red to green, that means it's time for him to wake up. And every morning we hear, it's green, it's green, it's green and like we have to go and get him out of bed. My morning, I need to sleep in as long as possible. And I don't have the

time before the it's green, it's green, it's green to fit in 20 minutes of meditation. Once I'm with my kid, my there's like a rocket, I'm on a rocket through the day. It's like, there's no stopping. It's a fast moving train. So I got to figure out a way to have a better relationship with me with with meditation. and I just have to prioritize it because I do think it was really good for me when it was working. Does Justin do it? No, no, he's also been really bad at it too.

He has done other things. He went to the Hoffman Institute, which he swears by and really loves and that has been really good for him and he's been very diligent about his practices with that. So he sort of moved away from the Transcendental Meditation. It was easier to do it when we decided to do it together, like, okay, let's meditate. And like we both took the time. And now, you know, we have to sort of divide and conquer.

So I don't have him holding me accountable either. Well, I don't know if this helps or not, but one of my earliest guests on this podcast was a Buddhist super monk called Hanim Sunim. Okay. He was a super monk because he had over a million followers on what was then Twitter, which I found hilarious because it seems counterintuitive for a monk. But I spoke to him about my failure to meditate and I asked him for advice and he said, the very fact that you are observing that you think you're failing at meditation is in and of itself part of the meditation.

Interesting. Isn't that beautiful? So this is the first step of your awareness, Jesse. I've got hope for you. I love that. That isn't aligned with what I learned from my training because there's like no bad way of doing it. And if your mind starts to wander, that's okay.

That's where your mind's at. It's like, I do, it is in line with, you know, what I should be doing. Like if you're even thinking about it as a form of meditation itself, I think that's very helpful. But I also think like I need to now maybe take it up the next step. But thank you for sharing that. You also think it's bullshit, that's fine.

No, I think it's very helpful. In a way, we've both meditated today on this podcast. Yes, exactly. You are such a joy to interview. We love you, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. But also don't go anywhere because you've got to answer listener questions and listener failures on Fading with Friends.

But thank you so, so much. Remember to follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. And please do share a link with anyone who you think would enjoy How to Fail. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.