How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jilly Cooper: On Failure, Love, and Literature

Episode Date: October 6, 2025

Today, we remember and celebrate the extraordinary life of Jilly Cooper, who has sadly passed away at the age of 88. A literary icon, Jilly captured hearts and imaginations with her wit, warmth, and unmistakable voice. Her novels, especially beloved titles like Riders and Rivals, sold over 11 million copies in the UK alone and most recently inspired the hit Disney+ adaptation that introduced her work to a whole new generation. I had the immense privilege of speaking with Jilly just last October. She was everything I’d hoped she would be - funny, sharp, generous and inspiring. Today, in tribute to her legacy and the joy she brought to so many, I’m honoured to share the conversation with you again. ___________________________________________________________________ Dame Jilly Cooper. What a legend. For the uninitiated (where have you been?) she’s a journalist and author most famous for her bestselling Rutshire Chronicle series which includes Riders, Polo and Rivals - the latter of which has now made into a hugely popular TV series starring David Tennant, Danny Dyer and Katherine Parkinson. In the past, Dame Jilly’s books have been unfairly dismissed as mere ‘bonkbusters’, charting the sex lives of the upper classes. But, as I discover, there’s much more to both her writing - and to her. We talk about her failures with technology, why she wishes she could throw more things away, as well as the terrifying time she lost an entire manuscript on the number 28 bus and had to rewrite it. Plus her experiences of interviewing Margaret Thatcher, her friendship with the Queen, her obsession with beautiful people and ‘macho men’ - and why she’d wholeheartedly recommend adoption to others. Thank you Dame Jilly. A total sport (but we knew that). ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Remembering Dame Gili Cooper 03:43 Personal Reflections and Literary Success 07:37 Exploring Themes of Masculinity and Beauty 10:15 Family, Loss, and Resilience 11:28 Failures and Fertility Challenges 21:18 Dieting and Body Image 25:12 Interviewing Margaret Thatcher 26:46 Technical Challenges and Writing Process 30:27 Friendship and Social Media 🔗 LINKS: Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I, like many of you, I'm sure, was so sad to hear of the death of Dame Jilly Cooper at the age of 88. I was so lucky to get to interview her for How to Fail in October 24. And I say I was lucky for myriad reasons. She was a hilarious guest. someone who had such a zest and twinkle for life. But she's also someone that I hugely admire as a writer, someone who is a shrewd observer of class in her books, someone who historically spoke openly about her inability to conceive biologically, and who really made women feel seen both on the page and in life.

I'm so, so glad that her work got the resurgence that it deserved with the TV adaptation of rivals. And we also delve into that in this conversation. I hope that you enjoy it and I hope that you listen to it and remember the remarkable woman and writer that was Dame Jiddy Cooper. I know from experience that starting your own business can be super intimidating and can feel really isolating. So I empathise with those of you who are currently feeling that way.

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to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace is here to support entrepreneurship and help turn your passion into a business. It does so with cutting-edge design, seamless check-out for customers with simple but powerful payment tools. It helps you turn leads into clients, allowing you to grow and communicate with your audience. Their customers include the dusty knuckle bakery and cafe in East London, and if you know, you know, their bread is amazing. They're a Squarespace customer and a brilliant example of how to do it right. Their training program provides young people who've been excluded by society with the basic skills for work and

life. Go check them out. Head to Squarespace.com slash fail 10 for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code fail 10, that's fail 10, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. My guest today was so naughty at school, teachers dubbed her the unholy terror. Over time, this naughtiness has served Dame Jilly Cooper rather well. When, as a newly married young woman, she found herself sitting next to the editor of the Sunday Times magazine at dinner, she regaled him with stories of her husband, and he promptly commissioned her to write for the paper. She became one of the Sunday Times' most popular journalists, writing a column for over 13 years and interviewing everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Best.

But it was as an author that she would become famous. She published her first book, How to Stay Married, in 1969, and since then has written or contributed to another 44 works of fiction and nonfiction. She is probably most well known for the Rutscher Chronicle series, which includes the bestsellers, riders, rivals, and polo. Her books were wrongly dismissed frequently as mere bonk-busters. In truth, they are full of memorable characterisation, taboo-busting action, and humorous insights into everything from the British class system to whether a woman should shave her legs. I gobbled up the whole lot as a teenager and have never forgotten how fearlessly thrilling Dame Jilly's writing felt. Her books have sold

over 11 million copies in Britain alone. Now, an eight-part Disney Plus adaptation of rivals starring David Tennant, Adrian Turner, Emily Aitak and Danny Dyer has just hit our screens. Despite her success, Dame Ginny has never been one to take herself too seriously. I'm sort of frivolous, she has said. I don't write literature, but I hope my books have given people joy. I hope they make people happy. Dame Ginny Cooper, welcome to How to Fail. I know what lovely. I want to cry. I know. I mean, it's been so nice about me. Well, you've made me very happy through your books, and I'm extremely happy that you're sitting here opposite me today. Thank you so much. That's lovely. Thank you for blazing a trail for the other female journalists starting out on newspapers who've then gone on to write books. You really were.

Catherine Whitehall, there were some great ones. I mean, there were great ones, but you did in a fantastic job, so thank you. And I wanted to end on that quote, because I think, I think. I think I'd like to take exception to the idea that you don't write literature, given that riders made the BBC list of 100 most important English language novels in love, sex and... Did it? I couldn't find it. You're sure it's there? Well, it comes up again and again in press cutting, so I think it must be. That's a cheer off. I'm very pleased. Do you actually think you don't write literature, or have you been made to feel that you don't? I don't know what literature is. I remember my best friend called Jana Trollope. He was always described as a literature. author, and I was described as a popular author, and I used to feel a bit sad. I don't know when

things become literature. Is it time? I mean, if something is read 100 years time, I don't know what the definition do you? No, I've never asked myself that question. Maybe, as you say, it becomes literature if it stands the test of time. Your books are famous for their sexual content. But I'm fascinated by your insights into class. When was the first time you can remember being interested in the British class system? We were so broke. They were going to have to sell our house in Fulham. And then I wrote this book class and went to Tritians of a cellist and was there for 20 weeks and saved our house. I think class is interesting because people do behave in a peculiar way. I mean, in my book I had Harry Stochrat, who was the aristocrat. And then there

was the Nouveau Richards, who the Nouveau Riech, people like that. And you have fun with glass, I think. And do you think it's still as prevalent as it was when you wrote that book? Probably not much, but I still think people sort of look up and down at people. I mean, in this rival's book, a lot of the couples sort of look down on each other. I think it just goes on, but more secretly, I don't think people talk about it quite soon. Are you excited about the TV adaptation of rights? Yes, very, I can say it's absolutely wonderful, gorgeous actors.

Aidan Turner from Poldog who's up to heaven And he's not even playing Rupert Campbell Black No no no no The lovely man called Alex Hassel He's under for Shakespeare

He's playing Rupert Camber Black And then David Tennant In it who's wonderful too He's playing with the Baddy Lord Baddingham So I mean there's a fantastic cast Rupert Campbell Black stalked the corridors

Of my teenage imagination I hope he did I hope he did He really did Julie The first one of your books that I read was Polo, and he just blew me away. And he is renowned in your books for being the most handsome man in England. Who was he based on? Three men, really. Andrew Parker Bowles is definitely

because he was a great friend for a long time, and Camilla, his darling wife. So he's very like Rupert because he was beautiful and blonde and stunning. And then there was a man called Mickey Suffolk. It was absolutely wonderful, very, very funny. And then there was one called Rupert Lysa Green, who was married to Karen to the Bechman. And there were all these gorgeous men I met. So there's amalgam of all of them, really. So Andrew Parker Bowles, you mention, is now the Queen's ex-husband. Yes, that's right. And you describe yourself as middle class. Isn't that interesting that you're now friends with the Queen? No, I don't think so. I mean, after all, the Queen's got lots

of friends, got lots of dogs. And Rishi Sunak, our former Prime Minister is a big fan of yours as well. I met him yesterday. I went to his house, Downing Street. And he's gone now, poor darling. But he was so nice. We had half an hour together. And he's very attractive. And we had a really, really nice chat. And he said, the sweetest thing at the end. Sorry, no, that was wrong, so I got a long story. That was Prince Charles when I got my damehood. It's an understandable mistake.

Okay. So you confuse the now king with our former Prime Minister. But what did then Prince Charles say to me? No, no, it was so sweet. I said, he's got to stay well because the country loves him so much. And he said, by the way, we've got two rather good horses running at ask. Did you put money on them? Yes, and he didn't win it.

But I think they did the next week. I wondered when I asked you the Rupert Campbell-Black question whether you were going to mention your father and your brother. Having recently been lucky enough to get a preview of the BBC documentary that's coming up about you, both your father and brother were incredibly handsome attractive men. I'm obsessed with beauty. Why?

I just love it. I love beautiful people. I'm unnaturally obsessed with beauty, I think. Tell me more about your father. So he was a brigadier. He was a brigadier. He was absolutely, it was wonderful, lovely, lovely man. and he got a first Cambridge

and he played rugby for the army he was very glam and were these early male figures did they embody that kind of masculine macho energy that comes across in your books like macho men I'm afraid Leo with my husband was macho

how would you describe macho my father went off to work and my mother looked at home after us and I don't think this is necessary at all because I think it's lovely women got to work but I do think men being strong and happy about their masculinity and women being happy about being feminine is lovely. So what do you think of the age that we're living through now

where some people might think that that view is outdated? I've long talked to my granddaughter, but she's at a boarding school at the moment and she says the boys are very bossy from that view. It seems boys still are very macho. Do you think you're a strong woman? No, weak. You don't strike me as a weak person. A weak person couldn't have written the books that you've written

or had the success that you've had or saved the house that you were living in. in twice. We moved to Gloucestershire, and we asked the bank manager for the weekend, and we introduced him to lots of sorority

and he sat on the terrace on Sunday night, oh, lovely old properties, lovely old properties, what a tragedy you're going to have to sell it? I said, what do you mean? What do you mean?

You wouldn't have a sudden. I don't think you're dirty little bit writers will get you out of it. And it did. So, and so and so and so and so. So V signed to bank managers. Exactly. And you moved bank afterwards, didn't you?

Yes. It sounds to me like you have withstood a lot of sexism over the years, not just from that bank manager, but also from people who have dismissed your books as bonk busters. Rivals is interesting because rivals actually, and there's a lot of screwing in it, obviously, because people are sort of carrying on as they do. There's an awful lot of other things. I mean, in the old days, there was 15 different television stations around the country. Every five years, somebody would try and take it away from the incumbent.

And that meant the regional television was really, really strong and powerful and built up the regions, which I think is very important. Now it's all London-based. So it's also, your books are about power? Power and laughter a bit. I like nature. I'd love to talk to you about your mother a little bit because I understand that it was her

who started reading to you at a very young age. You started reading at the age of four. Yeah, she's wonderful. Very, very beautiful. I read somewhere that she struggled with depression. She did. She hated moving hard. Every time she moved house, she had a little of a breakdown.

with Daddy in the Army, but that was a bit difficult. Very difficult. She was absolutely divine. How old were you when you became aware that things were difficult? We moved from south of the Oxford to London. I remember coming home and seeing Daddy looking very miserable. I said, darling, what's the matter? What's the matter?

He said, well, Mum, you know, she's had to go into her home. She tried to commit suicide. I'm so sorry. At the end, she suddenly got really strong. When he got vaguer at the end, she was really strong, but she died in 91. Do you think that's partly why you have this? desire to make people happy? Oh yeah, I like making people happy.

I mean, I'm a picture behind their backs, but I do like making love. And is that the secret to writing a great sex scene is to leave the humor in? I said that the good marriage was kept alive by creaking bedsprings, more from laughter than from sex. Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is your two. total failure to throw anything away.

Are you a hoarder? I always make about 15 drafts of everything I write. And I keep them in case there's absolutely brilliant paragraph of draft 13 that I might want to go back to. And so as a result, when we moved to the country, I filled up the gazebo on the garden with all my crud, my 15 drafts. Then I moved up to top of the house. Then Leo died.

I moved into his study. Leo's lovely office on the round floor is filled up with notebooks, files, grafts, the photographs of people. I'm just terribly untidy. Leo is your beloved late husband? Yep, yep, yep, yep. Yes. Do you miss Leo?

I do. The Parkinson's is so vile. You're horrified, but you actually say, please God, take him, because it's so cruel. Then you feel absolutely poor. I'm so sorry you went through that. How did he feel about being Mr. Jilly Cooper? Or how did he feel about your success?

Well, the thing, Elizabeth Jane Howard, you remember, was married to him. Kingsley Amist. That's right, and she came up to Leo at the Hatcharge, all the other party, and said, no, Leo, how are you enjoying me, Mr. Julie Cooper from now on? He wasn't pleased. I think it was difficult for him. I think it is difficult for anybody.

I think it's difficult if you go to any party and that people rush up to somebody you're with. And then, because I was with Stanley Tushit, Wimbledon the other day, and love with Stanley. And everybody said, get out of the way, get out of the way, I want to stuff with Stanley. So I think it is difficult. It must be difficult. Let's go back to why you don't throw things away.

So is there something about the past beyond the idea of the fact that you might have written the most exquisite sentence in draft 13? Is there also something about cherishing the past? Everybody's so kind that I'm always sitting in my presence. I'm not good at being tiredly. I like to be, but I never have been. Have you ever been sent pants? No. Have you?

No, I'm actually kind of offended now. And I got divorced in my mid-30s. and then I started dating again. Don't worry, I'm married to a lovely, lovely man now. And no one has ever sent me a dick pick. A dick pick? Yes. That's what they're cocks?

Literally a picture of their penis, which apparently is quite common currency. Is it current? Current, current now, isn't it? Yes. Extraordinates, extraordinary to do. Don't you think? Completely. Up or down?

I've never been someone so I don't know. I think maybe half-tumessent, but not fully. erect. Tumessin is a good word, too, isn't it? It is. It's one of those words that have a crossword, you know, when they say which of it is, it is, tumessent. Yes, it's also one of those words that would be terrible in a sex scene. Yes, it would. It would. Does anyone really know what hormones do? There is so much talk about women's hormonal health, but most women are left even more confused about what it means for them and what to do. And what to do about it. This confusion ends now. Hormone Harmony is a game changer for women struggling with

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on a bus. This is one of the most terrifying stories I've ever heard about any writer. Please tell it to us. It's halfway through writers. I've written about 400,000 words. And I took it out to lunch to sort of fiddle around with the full stops and put a photo addict and sort of tart it up. I went to lunch in Soho.

We obviously got a bit pissed. Then I went to self-fitting and walked some centres one dozen. And I got all the 28 bus to go home. And and when I got back to Parliament, it had gone. So I had this fantasy about some bus conductor writing the novel of decedure. So you had to wait then for a few years, didn't you, before you could... Oh, yes, this was the 79.

You rewrote the whole thing? I had to, yeah. I think it was better because it was a bit more developed, because it was finished into 84, something like that. So it was a long time to wait. It was awful. There's another story around public transport that comes. up when one research is Dame Jiddy Cooper. And it must have been a very shocking and scary one.

Well, Pallington train tracks. We went to Tundlingham, just getting into Pallington. The train just crashed and all around us with people who were dead, Romey. And I was pulled out. And I was all right, really. But I was going to a conference about the Holocaust. It was one of my books. Because I got to this conference to the Holocaust. But everybody happened to them. It was far, far, far worse than me in a little crash at Pallington. And then I, so I, so I, So I sort of cheered out, and they thought it was very nice to me. And I got back to my house and full at the time. And my children said, mum will miss her dogs.

So they'd thrown the dogs into a car and driven them up to London to meet me. Was that sweet? That's so sweet. So sweet. There they were. Yes. It strikes me talking to you that you have been through some difficult things, but you're not self-indulgent. You dust yourself off and carry on.

Would that be fair? I mean, for a journalist, as you know or a writing, you've got to meet a deadline. haven't you? So you've got to do something about it. Do you think of your life as meeting a deadline? Are you sort of ever aware that it's fine? No, but I always think I'm always think I might need some more money. I'm always worried about money.

Still? And how do you feel about death? There's two things. I love the thing that when you die, all your favourite dogs at your past come running towards you across the sun at dawn, your favourite dogs leading the pack. Isn't that lovely? And I'd love to see Leo again and I'd love to see my parents again. But I just think all them all up now.

I'm worried about the clouds holding on. mob. Oh, chilly. Do you what I mean? Yes. I should say, actually, before we move on to your second failure, that you are one of the very generous guests who have given me several failures, not just three, because you said that you failed so many times you can't just limit it to three.

No. Do you think, this is something that's a lot of female guests say to me, and I think it's possibly because women of a certain generation, myself included, are brought up not to believe in themselves fully. And so they often think that they fail, whereas someone more self-confident might think, well, you know, there's an obstacle that I can navigate, but eventually I'm guaranteed success.

Do you think you've always felt insecure? I wasn't very clever at school, but I failed Oxford because I went for an interview with some of Hillers, there were sort of all in tweed suits and sort of bossy boots running around and saying, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? I was there, and I suddenly thought, I don't want to go to Oxford.

I don't want to go to Tilders and build with these sort of bossy women in between suits. And so I lied. I said, I'm terribly sorry. I've just heard my mother's ill, and I've got to go back to Yorkshire. And I went back to Yorkshire, and of course, I didn't get in. Have you ever regretted that? I mean, it would have been lovely to get a degree. I mean, I would have been very proud.

I hate fact I didn't go to Oxford, but, but, I mean, wasn't that an awful thing to do? No, it sounds like... It just weren't my kind of people as women. Yes, and how interesting that you tell me that story. in response to that question because actually that shows to me that you really knew yourself. You sort of knew where you were happy.

Yeah. Okay, so your second failure, which we know isn't really a failure, but it's such a moving thing to talk about. It's about not being able to give birth to your children, but it had this miraculous outcome because you adopted your children. Would you mind telling us, Jilly,

how you discovered that you wouldn't be able biologically to conceive? I was married and we sort of, I suppose, made love a lot. Great deal. I was 24, then I was 27 and he already had a daughter. And we wanted to have children. And nothing happened, of course, nothing happened and nothing happened. Went from gynecologist to gynaecologist. And I had an endopic pregnancy.

And the doctor just said afterwards, I'm sorry, I want to come out. And he said, I think you should think about adopting, because I don't think you're likely to conceive. I mean, I wasn't that maternal. I'm not berserk about babies, so it was a real terrible senior heartbreak for me, but I desperately wanted children.

And, of course, that we first adopted Felix, and it was difficult because Leo was divorced. And so they were a bit sort of, you know, iffy about it's a bit on then. And then, of course, when it's a lovely adoption society, first they find us Felix,

then they find assembly, and they were miraculous. I could never love any much than I love them. So I was incredibly lucky. I wonder if I could wind back a little bit and ask you whether you felt like a failure. You said that you weren't particularly maternal, but as someone I've also been through fertility challenges. And even though I know on a logical level, I'm not a failure, it was very difficult not to internalize the sense that my body was letting me down. And you were letting your husband down too.

Yes. Yes, exactly. There is that because he was first wife, very, very beautiful, and had sick. children by five different fathers and all beautiful. I was like I was jealous the fact that she was being so wonderfully successful. I wanted children, I belonged for children. I loved Leo and I just wanted some children. So it's horrid, isn't it?

It is horrid. How old were you when Felix came into your life? I was 31. Okay. And Emily was about 33 years. If anyone is listening to this and they are going through a fertility struggle and they are considering adoption but maybe they're scared of it for various reasons or they're intimidated by the length of the process.

What would you say? I'd say go absolutely for it. It's been wonderful. It made me so happy. It feels literally within the house for five minutes. Totally, totally love. The same with Emily. It's absolutely miraculous.

You've had this amazing present. I'd recommend anybody to do it. It was wonderful for us. You're fine. failure is your failure to keep to a diet. Tell us about this, Julie. I probably have a very good diet in the middle day. I would have a tangerine for breakfast. Then I have something like sort of broccoli or something for lunch. Then I have dinner, but not very much in the evening. And suddenly, I think, smug, I'm really thin now. So I'll trot off to the larder and get, you know,

chocolate biscuit or a bit of a clambosol or something and then the three glassy of mints or something. My laps and sorts have to start darting again the next day. As soon as I get a little bit, then I get smug. Why do you feel you have to diet? I've got whaling skills. If I'm nearly 90 and I get worried. If I'm nearly eight and a half, I'm happy. But why?

Because, look, lots here. You look amazing. No, no big thighs, too. No, you don't. Fat thighs. This really upsets me because you do look amazing and you always have, and you've always been a very thin. I've always had to watch my weight like mad.

What's your fear about not watching it? What's the ultimate fear? If you didn't die at what would happen that would be awful. I'm in fat. Why is that awful? Particularly what other people. I just don't want to have fat myself. I know.

Why? What's the root? Well, it's ridiculous. And also, I'm not trying to pull in a world age of seven either. Just don't want to be. Also, because now I have to, I mean, now with rivals, I've got to go on sort of programs and do television and things like that and look not too bad.

I'm trying to, a bit, bit thin. How much of this do you think is wrapped up in the era you came of age? You know, I came of age in the 90s, and that was still pretty toxic for women in many respects. And I still have that kind of internal narrative, which is like, should you be eating that? Which I reject, I strive to reject every single day, because as women, we are so much more than what we weigh. How much of how you feel do you think is wrapped up in the culture rather than in the jilly? I've always thought about I was 11 and a half stone when I left school And was someone critical of you?

No, not particularly, but I just felt very fat And I remember going to France I was in love with the host's son It was absolutely gorgeous He said, that she's Julie over there And she said, she said, El A Traylaid And I said, oh no, no, no, no part of her laid Traylead, that's been very ugly

They're laid egross Egross, and fat No, no, this was the daughter of the heavenly man because you just said I was ugly and fat and that's clearly

stuck with you it did it did so I don't want that back I don't mind anybody else being any size I just don't want

to be that myself I can't get to my clothes anyway things like that is there any age

that you've been where you have been fully happy with your physical self no I think pretty smug

if one was I suppose there's this desire well I have one anyway that the The older I get, the more I'll feel accepting of myself.

You must be accepted. Why are you not accepting yourself? Oh, all the normal, boring insecurities about it. I mean, lots of things. Am I lovable? All of that sort of stuff. But in your, now that you're in your 80s, what do you think of yourself? Do you think you accept yourself, love yourself? I'm not very happy. But I miss me over. It's fine. I live in a lovely house. And I live in a beautiful part of the country. and I have my children and my grandchildren I'm very lucky You should eat what you want

And drink what you want No I don't think I should drink But much better than I used to be But we used to drink Everybody used to do much more, do you think Yes Well when I first started out in journalism That was sort of early 2000s

And we still went for incredibly long Tuesday lunches With loads of booze That we had long lunches didn't you Yes And that was lovely And then you came back at the office And you couldn't remember anything about what you've done. It was awful.

Tell me what Margaret Thatcher was like to interview. Oh, sweet. Amazingly. Amazingly. I was caught from Laleigh, and I collapsed into her office and flooded as usual. And say, God, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. Sit down. Don't worry. Don't worry. I want Julia cup of tea. And she said, no, my dear, I gather like a longer interview. Why don't you come and see me for two hours in Chelsea next week?

So how can I not love for that? And did you go and see her in Chelsea? Lovely. We had a lovely time. Chatted. And then I interviewed her again later. But I thought she was lovely. I mean, a hell of a job being the first woman to be Prime Minister. Yes. I mean, she's bossy boots.

But I think the men put her through it, don't you? Yes. She had a lovely husband who adored her. Well, and he rather like Leo, was used to being the husband of the more successful high-profile? Yes, but Leo was much. Dennis wasn't like that. But Dennis was absolutely gentle and lovely. I thought he was charming.

Have you met our current Prime Minister, Kirstama? No, have you? I have actually, yes. It's nice. Very nice. Really? Yes. Maybe you should send him some of your books.

Get invited back to 10 Downing Street. I don't know. It's like animals. I actually didn't ask him if you liked animals, which is now a real failing of mine. I feel like that should be a question in every single interview that I do. What? Do you like animals? Animals.

Yes. No, I know you do. I'm saying it should be a question. I should have asked Kirstama that and I failed. Yes, you should. I mentioned that you had given me many more failures so I'd love to touch on some of those

your inability to understand anything technical Oh God, awful Monica, my typewriter I've typed a manual typewriter He's got a pair of scissors attached to one side of her, the pen to the other and I used to just sort of cut her

and all the books and it's riders are Monica and now I don't use a laptop I don't use a, I can't very good with my telephone's cocked up now and I can't use all those lovely

oblongitis things that people use and tell them facts you press a button and they'll tell you who Shakespeare married and things like that in five seconds

so wonderful I must learn those things I can't do any of that I mean as I said in that piece I mean Shakespeare I couldn't do any of those aids

he's all right didn't he without these things but I can't will he be able to watch rivals will someone come and set up the television for you

oh no we've got a television here I can press a television button I can do that Okay. And Pistler and on Wilde. It's awful. Monica's typing comes out so rare than my hair now, so I can't really read her.

Okay. Are you writing something at the moment? I wanted to write a book about Sparta. Because Sparta, you know, ancient Greece and all the members, that's matrimen in Sparta. Can I ask you a bit about your writing process? When it comes to writing a new book, where do you start? Do you start with planning or with writing? Planning at the moment, I'm sort of thinking about Sparta.

I've got a hair and messy. Well, no, I just thought myself making characters, notes of characters, and then notes of chapters, and then notes of, and then funny remarks, and I might fit in that character. I just sort of mess around for about six months, and then I get started. Right. How do you do it? I am not very good at planning. So I need to start writing to understand the character, and then I'll sort of retrofit the plan around that. And then I do do a bit of planning.

But I have things very clearly delineated in my head, and I can sort of drop myself into the world and remember the characters. Do you have that? you have this cast of recurring characters now over 11 novels of the Rucho Chronicles. I think Rupert's 60 now. Right. But do you remember them very easily? No. I had to reval together the other day.

I couldn't remember. I was slightly shocked by some of the language. Who's your favourite fictional creation of your own? If you were stranded on Desert Island and you have to choose one of your characters. Probably Rupert. Yeah. I mean.

Lot of tiring. My age. No, but I love Taggy. I love lots of lots of the characters. And I love the animals too. I love Gertrude and Riles. Yes. And your final failure of the five that you sent me is driving.

So when did you learn to drive? I mean, in a 60, I think I started. And it was a lovely driving stretch called Peter Clarkson. It took a year and a half driving around the country together. And then I passed my test on the second time. What happened the first time that you failed? Oh, I just brought around into a car. someone else else.

Ran into someone else? No, no, I didn't pass the second time. Everybody fainted at home. I think the whole family completely horrified. My children were so mean. They literally used to cross themselves every time they got into a car with my car with me.

Why do you think? Because I was a terrible driver. What was it? Were you scared? Age of 50-something and not even taking a test. It's ridiculous, isn't it? I don't think it is, but I suppose it feeds into your inability

to understand technical things as well. You're just a creative. You're an artist. I hope. But then I gave up a lovely white polo, which I loved. I feel hearing you talk, you're very mean about yourself, but very lovely about other people. I'm quite nasty about other people sometimes, too. Are you? It's funny or not, not when you're recording a podcast. No, I don't mean to be mean. It's just that people are funny on this. You have to laugh at them.

How important is friendship to you? Very. How many friends do you think you have? I don't know. But though I have got a lot. they will write to me and say, Julie, we must get together. I do mean to, but I'm always, you must find this. You know, I hate drop us in, because if you're a writer, you hate drops in, didn't you? Yes.

You just get to the good, best bit in the paragraph or book. And then suddenly some idiot comes, wants to drink and everything. And you've lost the plot. But friendship, what do you think it's given to you over the years? Because I had to write a friendship piece for the Sunday Times, that big double-page spread. They were really kind. They liked the piece.

And so they said, I could. have a party and gave me lots of champagne. I could invite my friends to it. And there's a lovely picture of the law on the lawn in Parliament, having a nice time. I wonder how you feel being a sort of institution now, because it must be difficult for you to go out on the street in London. Not anymore. Is it not?

No, the old day, everybody recognised it anymore. And what was it like when everyone came up to you and recognised you? I didn't mind, really. It was just something that happened. Not everybody recognised it. they did. And I felt, I would sort of put on a bit of makeup before I went out and things like like that before. Went out the first thing in the morning with great black rings under your eyes and sort of red veins and your cheeks. That wasn't very attractive. I actually don't look

very nice. And how do you feel when people pay you compliments when they say, gosh, your books meant so much to me? Oh, it's lovely. I used to get, in the Sunday times, you'd get sort of a hundred fan lists a week and things like that. Did you keep them? Somewhere. That's probably why the place is a mess. And are they, and they were important to you? Well, they were nice. They were lovely to have it. I mean, it was important. I don't mind not getting them now. But I mean, I think the internet's different, don't you. Yes, it is different. And I think the social, whatever's called it, when everyone's beast, it's horrid there. Yes, horrible. Don't bother with social media. It's awful. Why? I mean, it's cheating because they don't say who they are, do they? Exactly. They can do it anonymously. Whereas in our day, when we were on newspapers, people had to make the effort of putting pen to paper and finding a poster stamp and walking to the post box. And so there was a barrier.

Absolutely. I think that's me, no. So my final question is, if you look back to 14-year-old Julie, what would she have thought? I would have been very proud of myself. I would, wouldn't I? Yes, I think so. I mean, I'm terrible. I love it. I love the back.

I mean, I sound so ungrateful. I'm so grateful. I mean, when I got the letter about being a dame, I mean, it arrived at home, and I opened it, and I thought, oh, somebody's fooling around. So I put it up, I said, what, what? And Felix Kim, and he said, what's the matter, what's the matter? I said, I've got a letter. God, who's died? Who's died?

I said, no, no, look. He was thrilled to, but I mean, what I mean? You don't expect it. You know what I mean? And you don't think it's really you, but it's very nice. We started off talking about literary acclaim versus sales. Do you ever feel that you've been overlooked by a literary establishment and does it matter? As long as people read them and enjoy them.

I said, I want to cheer people up. That's what I like to do. Or just sort of make them feel, minute they've been crawled around. animals or crawled children. I'd like to make people stop doing cruel themes. Animals in War was one of the most important books I wrote in the Imperial Museum. And that was a lovely book. And it was the saddest book I've ever read.

God, it was awful. What happened to all these animals? I'm glad I wrote it because it made people aware of how wonderful animals were, I hope. I was proud of that. Dame Jody Cooper, thank you for cheering people up over all of these wonderful books that you've written. I am loving watching rivals and even better for our listeners, you're going to stay on and you're going to cheer them all up because they've been writing in with their problems and failures in failing with friends and they are desperate to get your advice. But thank you so, so much for coming

on how to fail. Thank you. Thank you. It's lovely. Lovely time. We would love you to follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends and share a link with everyone you know. This is an Elizabeth Dayne Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.