How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Jilly Cooper - ‘What’s a dick pic?’

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

Dame Jilly Cooper. What a legend. For the uninitiated (where have you been?) she’s a journalist and author most famous for her bestselling Rutshire Chronicle series which includes Riders, Polo and Rivals - the latter of which has now made into a hugely popular TV series starring David Tennant, Danny Dyer and Katherine Parkinson. In the past, Dame Jilly’s books have been unfairly dismissed as mere ‘bonkbusters’, charting the sex lives of the upper classes. But, as I discover, there’s much more to both her writing - and to her. We talk about her failures with technology, why she wishes she could throw more things away, as well as the terrifying time she lost an entire manuscript on the number 28 bus and had to rewrite it. Plus her experiences of interviewing Margaret Thatcher, her friendship with the Queen, her obsession with beautiful people and ‘macho men’ - and why she’d wholeheartedly recommend adoption to others. Thank you Dame Jilly. A total sport (but we knew that). You can watch Rivals on Disney+ now. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole and John Scott Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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to give you the most up-to-date data, enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Right now, you can try LinkedIn Sales Navigator and get a 60-day free trial at LinkedIn.com forward slash advanced. That's LinkedIn.com forward slash advanced for a 60-day free trial. Let LinkedIn Sales Navigator help you sell like a superstar today. Just go to linkedin.com forward slash advanced and get started. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that believes that almost every failure can, in the fullness of time, teach us something meaningful. Before we get to today's guest, I just wanted to

mention our special subscriber bonus podcast, Failing with Friends. This is where my guest stays in the studio after our chat and answers your questions, offering advice on your failures too. Here's a bit of Gilly Cooper to give you an idea. If you overcome failure and are very brave and you've been horrible or bullied, I mustn't bully that person or I must do something to help that person to improve your character and his success and you'll feel much happier in yourself and everything too. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look

out for my Instagram call-outs once a month to ask your quickfire questions. Thank you so much. Also, if you subscribe, you get to listen to How to Fail completely ad-free. My guest today was so naughty at school, teachers dubbed her the Unholy Terror. Over time, this naughtiness has served Dame Jilly Cooper rather well. When as a newly married young woman she found herself sitting next to the editor of the Sunday Times magazine at dinner, she regaled him with stories of her husband and he promptly commissioned her to write for the paper. She became one of the Sunday Times' most popular journalists, writing a column for

over thirteen years and interviewing everyone from Margaret Thatcher to George Best. But it was as an author that she would become famous. She published her first book, How to Stay Married, in 1969, and since then has written or contributed to another 44 works of fiction and non-fiction. She is probably most well known for the Rutscher Chronicle series, which includes the bestsellers Riders, Rivals and Polo. Her books were wrongly dismissed frequently as mere bonkbusters. In truth, they are full of memorable characterisation, taboo-busting action, and humorous insights into everything from the British class system to whether a woman should shave her legs.

I gobbled up the whole lot as a teenager and have never forgotten how fearlessly thrilling Dame Ginny's writing felt. Her books have sold over 11 million copies in Britain alone. Now an eight-part Disney Plus adaptation of Rivals starring David Tennant, Adrian Turner, Emily Atak and Danny Dyer has just hit our screens. Despite her success, Dame Ginny has never been one to take herself too seriously. I'm sort of frivolous, she has said. I don't write literature, but I hope my books have given people joy. I hope they make people happy. Dame Ginny Cooper, welcome to How to Fail. What lovely, I want to cry now.

Nobody's ever been so nice about me. Well, you've made me very happy through your books, and I'm extremely happy that you're sitting here opposite me today. Thank you so much. That's lovely. Thank you for blazing a trail for the other female journalists, starting out on newspapers who've then gone on to write books. You really were.

Catherine Whitehorn, there were some great ones. I mean there were great ones, but you did a fantastic job, so thank you. And I wanted to end on that quote because I think I'd like to take exception to the idea that you don't write literature given that Riders made the BBC list of 100 most important English language novels in Love, Sex and... Did it? I couldn't find it. Are you sure it's there? Well it comes up again and again in press cuttings. I think it must be. That's a cheer up. I'm very pleased.

Do you actually think you don't write literature or have you been made to feel that you don't? I don't know what literature is. I remember my best friend called John O'Trullar, he was always described as a literary author and I was described as a popular author. And I used to feel a bit sad. I don't know when things become literature. Is it time? I mean, if something is read a hundred years time is then, I don't know what the definition do. No, I've never asked myself that question. Maybe as you say, it becomes literature if it stands the test of time. Your books are famous for their sexual content, but I'm fascinated by your insights into class. When was the first

time you can remember being interested in the British class system? We were so broke, we were going to have to sell our house in Fulham and then I wrote this book, Class, and went to Triton's was glass, I think. And do you think it's still as prevalent as it was when you wrote that book? Probably not much, but I still think people look up and down at people. I mean, it's Rivals book. There's lots of the couples who look down on each other. I think it just still goes on, but more secretly. I don't think people talk about it quite so much. Are you excited about the TV adaptation of Rivals? Yes, very. I can say it's absolutely wonderful. Gorgeous actors. Aiden Turner, from Poldark,

who's absolutely heaven. And he's not even playing Rupert Campbell Black. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cast. Rupert Campbell Black stalked the corridors of my teenage imagination. I hope he did. I hope he did. He really did, Julie. The first one of your books that I read was Polo and he just blew me away. And he is renowned in your books for being the most handsome man in England. Who was he based on? Three men really. Andrew Parker Bowles definitely because he's been a great friend for a long time. And Ann Camilla, his darling wife. So he's very like Rupert. He was beautiful and blonde and stunning. And then there was a man called Mickey Suffolk, who was absolutely wonderful. Very, very funny. And then there was one called

Rupert Lysak Green, who was married to Karen Lepetman. And they were all these gorgeous men I met. So there's an amalgam of all of them really. So Andrew Parker-Bowles, who you mentioned, is now the Queen's ex-husband. Yes, that's right. And you describe yourself as middle class. Isn't that interesting that you're now friends with the Queen? No, I don't think so. I mean, that's for sure. The Queen's got lots of friends, lots of dogs. And Rishi Sunak, our former Prime Minister, is a big fan of yours as well.

Met him there. I went to his house down Newing street and he's gone now, poor darling, but he was so nice, we had half an hour together. And he's very attractive, we had a really, really nice chat. And he said the sweetest thing again, sorry, that was wrong, so I got all the wrong stories. No, that was Prince Charles and I got my Dame Hood. It's an understandable mistake. Okay, so you confuse the now King with our former Prime Minister. But what did then Prince Charles say to you? No, no, he was so sweet. I said, he's got to stay well because the country loves him so much. And he said, by the way, we've got two rather good horses running a task at the

week. Did you put money on them? Yes, and they didn't win it. But I think they did the next week. I wondered when I asked you the Rupert Campbell Black question whether you were going to mention your father and your brother. Having recently been lucky enough to get a preview of the BBC documentary that's coming up about you, both your father and brother were incredibly handsome. Very good. I'm obsessed with beauty.

Why? I just love it. I love beautiful people. I'm unnaturally obsessed with beauty, I think. Tell me more about your father. So he was a brigadier. He was a brigadier. He was absolutely wonderful. Lovely, lovely man. He got first Cambridge. He played rugby for the army. He was very glam. And were these early male figures, did they embody that kind of masculine macho energy that comes across in your books? Like macho men, I'm afraid. Leo was my husband, was macho.

How would you describe macho? My father went off to work and my mother looked at home after us. I don't think this is necessary at all because I think it's lovely women go off to work. But I do think men being strong and happy about their masculinity and women being happy about being feminine is lovely. So what do you think of the age that we're living through now where some people might think that that view is outdated? I've had long talks with my granddaughter, but she's at a boarding school at the moment. And she says the boys are very bossy from that view. It seems boys still are very mature.

Do you think you're a strong woman? No. Weak. You don't strike me as a weak person. A weak person couldn't have written the books that you've written or had the success that you've had or saved the house that you were living in twice. We've saved part of his class. We moved to Gloucestershire. We asked the bank manager to save the weekend. We took him and introduced him to lots of royalty. He sat on the terrace on Sunday night. Oh, lovely old properties. Lovely old properties. What a tragedy you're

going to have to sell it. I said, what do you mean? What do you mean? You're going to have to sell it. I don't think your dirty little book riders will get you out of it. And it did. Sold and sold and sold and sold. So V signed to bank managers. Exactly. And you moved bank afterwards, didn't you? Yes. It sounds to me like you have withstood a lot of sexism over the years, not just from that bank manager, but also from people who have dismissed your books as bonk busters? Rivals is interesting because rivals actually, there's a lot of screwing in it obviously

because people are carrying on as they do. There's an awful lot of other things. In the old days, there was 15 different television stations around the country. Every five years, somebody would try and take it away from the incumbents. And that meant that the regional division was really, really strong and powerful and built up the regions, which I think is very important. Now it's all London based. So it's also, your books are about power. Power and laughter a bit. And nature, I like nature. I'd love to talk to you about your mother a little bit, because I understand that it was her who started reading to you at a very young age. You started reading at the age

of four. Yeah, she's wonderful. Very, very beautiful. I read somewhere that she struggled with depression. She did. She hated moving home. Every time she moved house, she had a nervous breakdown. With daddy in the army, that was a bit difficult. Very difficult. She was absolutely divine. How old were you when you became aware that things were difficult? We moved from South Yorkshire to London.

I remember coming home and seeing daddy looking very miserable. I said, darling, what's the matter? What's the matter? He said, mommy, you know, she's had to go into a home. She tried to commit suicide. I'm so sorry. At the end, she suddenly got really strong. When he got very good at the end, she was really strong, but she died at 91. Do you think that's partly why you have this desire to make people happy? Oh yeah, I like making people happy. I'm a picture behind their backs, but I do like making them laugh. And is that the secret to writing a great sex scene, is to leave the humor in?

It was after about, I said that the good marriage was kept alive by creaking bed springs, more from laughter than from sex. Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is your total failure to throw anything away. Are you a hoarder? I always make about 15 drafts of everything I write. And I keep them in case there's an absolutely brilliant paragraph and draft 13 that I might want to go back to. And so as a result, when we moved to the country, I filled up the gazebo

in the garden with all my crud, my 15 drafts. Then I moved up to the top of the house. Then Leo died. I moved into his study. Leo's lovely office on the round floor is filled up with notebooks, files, graphs, photographs of people. I'm just terribly untidy. Leo is your beloved late husband. Yes. Do you miss Leo? I do. But Parkinson's is so vile. You're horrified when you actually meet Leo and say, please God take him because he's so cruel. Then you feel absolutely bored. I'm so sorry you went through that. How did he feel about being Mr. Jilly Cooper? Or how did he feel about your success? Well, Elizabeth Jane Hart, I remember, was married to him. Kingsley Amis.

That's right. And she came up to Leo at the Hatchard or Theopatra and said, no, Leo, how do you enjoy being Mr. Jilly Cooper from now on? He wasn't pleased. I think it was difficult for him. I think it is difficult't pleased. I think it was difficult for him. I think it is difficult for anybody. I think it's difficult if you go to any party and people rush up to somebody you're with. And then, because I was with Stanley Tush, Wilburton the other day, and everybody was saying, get out of the way, get out of the way, I want to sell through Stanley. So I think it is difficult. It must be difficult. Let's go back to why you don't throw things away. So is there something about the past

beyond the idea of the fact that you might have written the most exquisite sentence in draft 13? Is there also something about cherishing the past? Also, everybody's so kind. They're always saying my presence, I'm not good at being tidy. I like to be able, I never have been. Have you ever been sent pants? No, no, have you? No, I'm actually kind of offended now. And I got divorced in my mid-30s and then I started dating again, don't worry, I'm married to a lovely, lovely man now. And no one has ever sent me a

dick pic. A dick pic? Yes. Is that so they're cocks? And no one has ever sent me a dick pic. A dick pic? Yes. Is that so they're cocks? Literally a picture of their penis, which apparently is quite common currently. Is it current now, isn't it? Yes.

Extraordinary, extraordinary thing to do. Don't you think? Up or down? I've never been someone so I don't know. I think maybe half tumescent, but not fully erect. Tumescent is a good word, isn't it? It is. It's one of those words that's having a crossword, you know, when they say witch, tumescent. Yes. It's also one of those words that would be terrible in a sex scene. Yes, it would. It would.

Hi, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast, Dinners on Me. I take some of my favorite people out to dinner, including, yes, my Modern Family co-stars, like Ed O'Neill. I had friends in Organized Cry. Sofia Vergara. What made you want to be comfortable? Julie Bowen. I used to be the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons.

I was so down bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight. You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. So you can't throw anything away. No. And has it ever happened that you have gone back to draft 13? No, can you imagine? I lost rivals on a bus. This is one of the most terrifying stories I've ever heard about any writer. Please tell

it to us. I was halfway through writing it, I had written about 400,000 words. I took it out to lunch to sort of fiddle around with the full stops and put food and additives in and sort of tart it up. I went to lunch in Soho. Obviously I got a bit pissed. Then I went to Selfridges and bought some centres, one does all the way. I got on a 28 bus to go home and I was chastised for it. When I got back to Parnett it had gone. I had this fantasy about some bus conductor writing a new novel of the century. So you had to wait then for a few years, didn't you, before you could...

Yes, this was in 79. You rewrote the whole thing? I had to, yeah. I think it was better because it was a bit more developed because it was finished in 84, something like that. So it was a long time to wait. It was awful. There's another story around public transport that comes up when one researches Dame Judy Cooper, and it must have been a very shocking and scary one. The Pallington train crash. Yes. We went to Pallington along with us, getting into Pallington.

The train just crashed and all around us were people who were dead, Romi. And I was pulled out and I was all right really. But I was going to a conference about the Holocaust. It was one of my books. Of course, I got to this conference about the Holocaust. But it really happened, but it was far, far, far, far worse than me in a little crash at Pallington. And then I, so I than me in a little crash at Paddington. And then I, so I cheered up and everybody was very nice to me.

And I got back to my house and full up with them. And my children said mum will miss her dogs. So they thrown the dogs into a car and driven them up to London to meet me. Was that sweet? That's so sweet. So sweet, there they were. Yes. It strikes me talking to you that you have been through some difficult things, but

you're not self-indulgent. You dust yourself off and carry on. Would that be fair? I mean, for a journalist, as you know, or a writer, you've got to meet a deadline, haven't you? So you've got to do something about it. Do you think of your life as meeting a deadline? Are you sort of ever aware that it's fine or not? No, but I always think I might need some more money. I'm always worried about money. Still. And how do you feel about death? There's two things. I love the thing that when you die, all your favourite dogs in your past

come running towards you across the sun at dawn, your favourite dogs leading the pack. Isn't that lovely? And I'd love to see Leo again. I'd love to see my parents again. But I just think all them all up now. I'm worried about the clouds holding them up. Do you know what I mean? Yes. I should say actually, before we move on to your second failure, that you are one of the very generous guests who've given me several failures, not just three, because you said that you failed so many times you can't just limit it to three. Do you think, this is something that a lot of female guests say to me, and I think it's possibly because women of a certain generation, myself included, are brought up not to believe in themselves fully, and so they often think that they fail.

Whereas someone more self-confident might think, well, there's an obstacle that I can navigate, but eventually I'm guaranteed success. Do you think you've always felt insecure? I wasn't very clever at school, but I failed Oxford because I went for an interview at St Hildes with all those tweed suits and bossy boots running around saying, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? I was there and I suddenly thought, I don't want to go to Oxford, I don't want to go to Tildes with these sort of bossy women in tweed suits. And so I lied, I said, I'm terribly sorry, I've just hurt my mother's ill and I've got to go back to Yorkshire. And I went back to Yorkshire and of course I didn't get in.

MS. Have you ever regretted that? MS. I mean, it would have been lovely to get a degree. I mean, I would have been very proud and I hate the fact that I didn't go to Oxford, to Oxford, but wasn't that an awful thing to do? No, it sounds like... They just weren't my kind of people as women. Yes. And how interesting that you tell me that story in response to that question, because actually that shows to me that you really knew yourself. You sort of knew where you were happy.

Yeah. Okay, so your second failure, which we know isn't really a failure, but it's such a moving thing to talk about. It's about not being able to give birth to your children, but it had this miraculous outcome because you adopted your children. Would you mind telling us, Jilly, how you discovered that you wouldn't be able biologically to conceive? I was married and we sort of made love a lot. Great deal. I was 24, then Leo was 27, and he already had a daughter and we wanted to have children. And nothing happened, of course. Nothing happened and nothing happened and nothing happened.

Went from gynaecologist to gynaecologist and I had an ectopic pregnancy. And the doctor just said afterwards, I'm sorry, I just want to come out and he said, I think you should think about adopting because I don't think you're likely to conceive. I mean, I wasn't that maternal, I'm not berserk about babies, so it was a real terrible senior heartbreak for me because I desperately wanted children. And of course, then we first adopted Felix and it was difficult because Leo was divorced. They were a bit iffy about it. Then of course, it's a lovely adoption society. First they found us Felix, then they found us Emily.

Miraculous. I could never love any much, and I love them. I was incredibly lucky. I wonder if I could wind back a little bit and ask you whether you felt like a failure. You said that you weren't particularly maternal, but as someone I've also been through fertility challenges and even though I know on a logical level I'm not a failure, it was very difficult not to internalize the sense that my body was letting me down. And you were letting your husband down too. Yes. Yes, exactly. There is that because Leo's first wife is very, very beautiful and had

six children by five different fathers and all beautiful. And I think I was jealous of the fact that she was being so wonderfully successful. Also, I wanted children, I long for children, I love Leo and I just wanted some children. So it's horrid, isn't it? It is horrid. How old were you when Felix came into your life? I was 31. Okay. And Emily was about 33 years.

If anyone is listening to this and they are going through a fertility struggle and they are considering adoption but maybe they're scared of it for various reasons or they're intimidated by the length of the process. What would you say? I'd say go absolutely for it. It's been wonderful. It made me so happy. I feel literally within the house for five minutes. Totally, totally in love.

The same with Emily. It's absolutely miraculous. You've had this amazing present. I don't recommend anybody to do it. It was wonderful for us. Your final failure is your failure to keep to a diet. Tell us about this, Julie. I probably have a very good diet. I would have tangerine for breakfast, then I have something like some broccoli or something for lunch, then I have dinner.

But not very much in the evening and suddenly I think smug. I'm really thin now, so I'll trot off to the larder and get chocolate biscuit or a bit of cambersola or something and then three glass of mints or something. My laps and so I have to start dieting again the next day. As soon as I get a little bit thinner I get smug. Why do you feel you have to diet? I've got weighing scales. If I'm nearly nine still I get worried. If I'm nearly eight and a half I'm happy.

But why? Because look, lots here. You look amazing. No, no, no. But it's- No, you don't. Fat thighs. This really upsets me because you do look amazing and you always have and you've always

been a very thin person. No, but I've always had to watch my weight like mad. What's your fear about not watching it? What's the ultimate fear? If you didn't diet, what would happen that would be awful? I've been fat. Why is that awful? Particularly with other people.

I just don't want to have fat myself. I know. Why? What's the root cause? Well, there's the root cause? Well, there's the rickety. I'm not trying to pull anybody into 87 either. I just don't want to be. Also, because now I have to, I mean now with rivals, I've got to go on sort of programmes and do television and things like that and look not too bad. I'm trying

to be a bit thin. How much of this do you think is wrapped up in the era you came of age? I came of age in the 90s and that was still pretty toxic for women in many respects. I still have that kind of internal narrative which is like, should you be eating that? Which I reject, I strive to reject every single day because as women we are so much more than what we weigh. How much of how you feel do you think is wrapped up in the culture rather than in the Gilly? I've always sort of thought that I was 11 and a half stone when I left school. And was someone critical of you?

No, not particularly, but I just felt very fat. And I remember going to France, I was in love with the host son, he was absolutely gorgeous. He said, this is G over there, and she said, L.A. Tray-laid. And I said, no, no, no part of Tray-laid. That's been very ugly. Laid a gross. A gross and fat. No, no, this was the daughter of the heavenly man. She just said I was ugly and fat. And that's clearly stuck with you. It did. I don't want that back. I don't want anybody else being any size. I just don't want to be that myself. I can't get into my clothes and things like that.

Is there any age that you've been where you have been fully happy with your physical self? No, I think it's pretty smug if one was. I suppose there's this desire, well, I have one anyway, that the older I get the more I'll feel accepting of myself. You must be accepting, why aren't you not accepting yourself? Oh all the normal boring insecurities about, I mean lots of things, am I lovable, all of that sort of stuff. But now that you're in your 80s, what do you think of yourself? Do you think you accept yourself, love yourself? I'm very happy. I miss the old, but it's fine. I live in a lovely house and I live in a beautiful part of the country. I have my children with me, so my grandchildren, I'm very

lucky. You should eat what you want, Julie. Okay. And drink what you want. No, I don't think I should drink much better than I used to. Everybody hundred, but much better than I used to be. But we used to drink much, everybody used to drink much more don't you think? Yes. Well when I first started out in journalism, that was sort of early 2000s and we still went for incredibly long Tuesday lunches with loads of booze. We had long lunches didn't you?

Yes. And that was lovely. And then you came back to the office and you couldn't remember anything about what you'd done. It was awful. Tell me what Margaret Thatcher was like to interview. Oh sweet. Amazingly, amazingly. I was caught in a late night collapse in her office and flood as usual and say, God, I'm

sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm late. Sit down, Julie. Sit down. Don't worry.

Don't worry. I want Julie a cup of tea. And she said, my dear, I gather you want like a longer interview. Why don't you come and see me for two hours in Chelsea next week? So how can I not love her for that? And did you go and see her in Chelsea? Lovely, we had a lovely time. Chastised. And then I interviewed her again later. But I thought she was lovely. I mean, a hell of a job being first woman to be prime minister. Yes. I mean, she's bossy boots, but I think the men put her through it, don't you?

Yes. She had a lovely husband who adored her. Well and he rather like Leo was used to being the husband of the more successful high profile. Yes but Leo's match, Dennis wasn't like that. But Dennis was absolutely gentle and lovely. I thought he was charming. Have you met our current Prime Minister Keir Starmer? No, have you? I have actually, yes. Nice. Very nice. Really? Yes.

Maybe you should send him some of your books. Get him back to 10 Downing Street. I don't know. Do you like animals? I actually didn't ask him if he liked animals, which is now a real failing of mine. I feel like that should be a question in every single interview that I do. What? Do you like animals? Animals? Yes. No, I know you do. I'm saying it should be a question in every single interview that I do. Do you like animals? Animals? Yes. I know you do. I'm saying it should be a question. I should have asked Keir Starmer that and I failed. Yes, you should. I mentioned that you had given me many more failures. So I'd love to touch on some of those. Your inability to understand anything technical. Monica, my typewriter, I've typed out a manual typewriter, she's got a pair of scissors attached

to one side of her, the pen to the other. I used to just sort of cut her. All the books since writers are Monica. And now I don't use a laptop, I don't use, I can't, I'm not very good, my telephone's cocked up now and I can't use all those lovely oblong-lightest things that people use. You tell them facts, you know, press a button and they'll tell you who Shakespeare married and things like that in five seconds. So wonderful. I must learn those things.

I can't do any of that. I mean, as I said in that piece, Shakespeare couldn't have any of those aids. He did all right, didn't he, without these things? But I can't. Will you be able to watch Rivals? Will someone come and set up the television for you? Oh no, we've got a television here. I can press the television button, I can do that. And press it on the wireless. It's awful. Monica's typing comes out so rarer than my hair now so I can't really read her anymore.

Are you writing something at the moment? I want to write a book about Sparta. Because Sparta, ancient Greece and all the memory of that, that's match your men in Sparta. Because Sparta, ancient Greece and all the memory, that's match your men in Sparta. Can I ask you a bit about your writing process? When it comes to writing a new book, where do you start? Do you start with planning or with writing? Planning, I'm thinking about Sparta. I've got a hair and messy, well no, I just start making character notes, characters, and then notes of chapters, and notes of And then funny remarks and I might fit in that character I just sort of mess around for about six months and then I get started.

Right. How do you do it? I am not very good at planning So I need to start writing to understand the character and then I'll sort of retrofit the plan around that And then I do do a bit of planning. But I have things very clearly delineated in my head and I can sort of drop myself into the world and remember the characters. Do you have that? Because you have this cast of recurring characters now over 11 novels of the Rutsch Chronicles.

I think Rupert's 60 now. Right. But do you remember them very easily? No. I had to read Rival together the other day. I couldn't remember. I was slightly shocked by some of the language. Who's your favourite fictional creation of your own? If you were stranded on a desert island and you have to choose one of your characters. Boyer Rupert. Yeah. I mean.

Rather tarry. No, but I love Taggy, I love lots and lots of the characters. And I love the animals too. I love Gert lots of the characters and I love the animals too. I love Gertrude and Riles. Yes. Dog. And your final failure of the five that you sent me is driving. So when did you learn to drive? I mean, in the 60s I think I started.

And it was a lovely driving instructor called Peter Clarkson. It took a year and a half driving around the country together. And then I went to pass my test for the second time. What happened the first time that you failed? Oh, I guess I ran into someone else. Ran into someone else? No, no, I didn't. I did pass the second time. Everybody fainted at home. The whole family

was completely horrified. My children were so mean. I mean, they literally used to cross themselves every time they got into a car with me. Why do you think? Because I was a terrible driver. What was it? Were you scared? At the age of 50 something and not even taking a test is ridiculous, isn't it? I don't think it is, but I suppose it feeds into your inability to understand technical things as well. You're just a creative, you're an artist. No, I hope just, but then I gave up a lovely white polo, which I loved. I feel hearing you talk you're very mean about yourself but very lovely about other people. I'm quite nasty about other people sometimes too.

Are you? Not when you're recording a podcast. No, I don't mean to be mean. It's just that people are funny, aren't they? So you have to laugh at them. How important is friendship to you? Very. How many friends do you think you have? I don't know. But I have got lots. They all write to me and say, Julie, we must get together.

I do mean to, but you must find this. I hate drop us in, because if you're a writer, you hate drop us in, don't you? Yes. You just get to the best bit in the paragraph or book, and suddenly some idiot comes, wants to drink and everything and you've lost the plot. But friendship, what do you think it's given to you over the years? I had a friendship piece for the Sunday Times, big double page spread. They were really kind,

they liked the piece and so they said I could have a party and give me lots of champagne and I could invite my friends to it. It was a lovely picture of us all on the lawn in Pugley, having a nice time. I wonder how you feel being a sort of institution now, because it must be difficult for you to go out on the street in London. Is it not? No, the older days everybody recognized it, the other days no more. And what was it like when everyone came up to you and recognized you? I didn't mind really, it was just something that happened. Not everybody recognized me,

they did. And I would put on a bit of makeup before I went out and things like that. I went out first thing in the morning with black rings under your eyes and red veins in your cheeks, that wasn't very attractive. I obviously don't look very nice. And how do you feel when people pay you compliments, when they say, gosh, your book's meant so much to me? Oh, it's lovely. I used to get, in the summertime, I used to get 100 fan lists a week and things like that. Did you keep them? Somewhere. That's probably where the place got a bit of a mess too. And they were important to you? Well, they were nice. They were lovely to have. I mean, it was important. I don't mind not getting them

now, but I mean, I think the internet's different, don't you? Yes, it is different. And I think the social whatever, whatever, is horrid though. Yes, horrible. Don't bother with social media either. Awful. Why? I mean, it's cheating because they don't say who they are, do they? Exactly. They can do it anonymously. Whereas in our day, when we were on newspapers, people had to make the effort of putting pen to paper and finding a poster stamp and walking to the post box. So there was absolutely a barrier. I think that's me now.

So my final question is, if you look back to 14 year old Julie, what would she have thought? I would have been very proud of myself. I would, wouldn't I? Yes, I think so. I mean, I'm so I love it. I love the backslide. I'm so ungrateful, I'm so grateful. I mean, when I got the letter about being a dame, it arrived at home and I opened it and I thought, oh, somebody's fooling around. So I put it up there and I went, what? Felix came in and he said, what's the matter, Mummy? What's the matter? I said, I've got a letter. I said, God, who's died? Who's died? I said, no, no, look. he was thrilled too. But I mean, but I mean, don't expect it. I mean, I don't think it's really you, but it's very nice.

We started off talking about literary acclaim versus sales. Do you ever feel that you've been overlooked by a literary establishment and does it matter? As long as people read them and enjoy them. I said, I want to cheer people up. That's what I like to do. Or just sort of make them feel, I mean, cruelty to animals or cruelty to children. I'd like to make people stop doing cruel things. And Animals and War was one of the most important books I wrote. The Imperial War Museum, and that was a lovely book and it was the saddest book I've ever read. God, it was awful what happened to all these animals. I'm glad I wrote it because it made people aware of how wonderful animals were and I hope. I was proud of that.

Dame Jilly Cooper, thank you for cheering people up over all of these wonderful books that you've written. I am loving watching Rivals and even better for our listeners, you're going to stay on and you're going to cheer them all up because they've been writing in with their problems and failures in Failing with Friends and they are desperate to get your advice. But thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you. It was lovely. Lovely time.

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