How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Joe Locke - ‘At 20, I Felt Like I Was Already 35’

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Joe Locke shot to global fame as Charlie Spring in Netflix’s Heartstopper, a role that catapulted him overnight from a schoolboy on the Isle of Man to an Emmy-nominated actor with millions of followers. In this candid conversation, the Heartstopper star reflects on the whirlwind of early success, the pressure of being seen as a role model and why he once felt like he was ‘already 35’ at just 20 years old. Joe opens up about the challenges of guarding his privacy while navigating fame, learning to embrace his youth and discovering the value of failure in both life and career. From Broadway and Marvel to his West End debut in Clarkston, the Netflix actor shares what it means to grow up in the spotlight, how being raised by strong women shaped him - and why believing in yourself can be the hardest lesson of all. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 01:43 Guarding Privacy in the Spotlight 04:21 Theater and Personal Passions 10:08 Heartstopper and Cast Dynamics 14:38 Navigating Fame and Personal Growth 16:04 Balancing Youth and Career 24:31 Reverse Misogyny and Comfort in Female Spaces 26:37 Future Aspirations 27:48 Imposter Syndrome in Acting 28:52 Heartstopper Casting Call Experience 32:00 The Struggle with Self-Belief 34:55 Embracing Failure and Personal Growth 40:59 Eyebrows and Acting 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: ‘The only way I can be a role model is by being the true version of myself. I'm not aspiring to be a role model, and if that is something that people attribute to me, that's not my fault or my thing to worry about.’ ‘I have a lot of growing to do still. And that's okay. I think because of my life, I felt like I've had to be perfect and done and fully ready as an adult, and I'm not there yet. And that's fine.’ ‘I think the film industry [has] got a very strong relationship with the class system... And I think that open casting is a great way of making the industry more accessible.’ ‘I’ve got reverse misogyny because of my upbringing… if I was choosing a team of people for work, I would never choose a man over a woman. I feel far more comfortable being in spaces with women than I do men.’ 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Joe is starring in Clarkston at the Trafalgar Theatre from 17th September - 22nd November clarkstonplay.co.uk Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 📚 WANT MORE? Erin Doherty - the Adolescence star on acting rejections, social anxiety and figuring out who she is: https://link.chtbl.com/gRxoOXyH Andrew Scott - on ‘failing’ to live a heteronormative life and the audition he’ll never forget: https://link.chtbl.com/18dVhMb_ Gugu Mbatha-Raw - on resisting type‑casting and handling tricky co‑stars. If you like honest reflections from actors, this is solid: https://link.chtbl.com/wDCLLc94 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Elizabeth and Joe Locke answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: howtofailpod.com Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Sound Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Like, my worst nightmare would have been, like, me going to a club and kissing someone and it being all over Twitter. Yes. Like, like, no thanks. But I also realized no one actually gives a fuck. I think I realized, like, last year that I was living the life of someone in their mid-30s and I was 20. I feel far more comfortable being in spaces with women than I do met. Hello and welcome to How to Fail. I'm Elizabeth Day.

And if you're new around here, this is the podcast that believe all failure is growth. So don't worry. You're very welcome. And remember, your mistakes are what make you. Okay, a breaking news, because I absolutely have to tell you about my new TV obsession, the Real Housewives of London, streaming from the 18th of August only on Hey You. It's going to be the talk of the summer. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss it.

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Sign up for HAYU now to start watching the Real Hsu. Housewives of London and see the drama unfold. A subscription is required and you'll need to be 18 plus. When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at mx.ca slash yMex. My guest today is still only 21, but has already racked up the professional credits of a seasoned actor and a following that most could only dream of. Joe Locke is best known for his lead role as high school pupil Charlie Spring in the hit Netflix teen drama, Heartstopper, for which he received an Emmy nomination.

It was his television debut and since then he's gone on to star in the Marvel miniseries Agatha all along to perform in a Broadway revival of Sweeney Todd and now he's making his first West End appearance in Samuel D. Hunter's play, Clarkston. He was born and grew up on the tiny windswept Isle of Man raised primarily by women, his single mother and her three sisters. Locke describes his mum as an amazing woman who always served. supported his ambition to act.

He started out with school plays and local productions before being accepted into the National Youth Theatre at the age of 15. Two years later, Locke was chosen out of 10,000 other potential actors at an open casting call for Heart Stopper. It was a role that would dramatically change his life, but not his privacy, which Locke still guards closely despite his 4 million Instagram followers and legion of Gen Z fans.

I think my privacy is like a power and the idea of losing that is like the loss of that power, Locke says. I guess that's the thing I hold on to the most dearest because that's the bit of me that is still unaffected by anything else. Joe Locke, welcome to How to Fail. Thanks, having me. That was such a lovely rundown.

My mum's going to love that. Is she? Good. I always want to give a show. shout out to the mums. Yeah, my mum deserves a big one. It's a delight and a challenge to have you here as someone who guards his privacy so closely. Let's see how we get on.

It's really interesting. Whereas I would still say I do hold my privacy very close, but I'm much more like comfortable in like what that is. But now I'm, I don't know, feel more, I still have a very private person, but I'm more open. I love hearing that. And actually, I think it's so important to make the distinction between privacy and secrecy.

Yeah. And I can understand why you were scared and a bit jittery because that was an interview that you gave around the time of the heart stopper hype. Yeah. And for someone who, as I said, grew up on the Isle of Man and then your first big job was this immense hit. It must have been incredibly surreal.

It was. You know, like overnight, I always said to say that like overnight, from like having like 10,000 Instagram followers to 3 million, literally within the space of two days because Hustlba came out and it just was this like overnight success in a way that we weren't prepared for. I don't think Netflix were prepared for and it was a very like weird adjustment. Yes. So then you've got three million people following you. Then do you feel like, well, I've got to be really careful what I do post now? Yeah. There's like the pressure of like if I actually

personally personally personally. I'm sorry. Like, at the time you can take it down, there's sort of been seen by 10,000 people, like, in seconds. Do you feel the pressure of being a role model? No, I don't. I used to, but I have realized that's not my job. The only I can be a role model is by being the true version of myself. Like, I'm not aspiring to be a role model. And if that is something that people attribute to me, that's not my fault or my, like, thing to worry about. I used to worry about it a lot, but not so much. Let's talk about the play, because I know almost nothing about it. Tell me a bit about what the themes are, the character, Jake, that you're playing.

So the plays by Sam Hunter, who wrote The Whale, which was with Brendan Fasier and a few Oscars a few years ago. And his plays are often more about the characters and where they are in the world compared to like a really like intense actiony plot. And so our play follows my character, Jake, who moves, who travels to Washington, in rural Washington to a town called Clarkston and starts working in a Costco. So most of the play is set inside this Costco and meets this other boy, Chris, and they have a friendship and then Chris's mum is battling with addiction. And the play is about the connections between that and them. And it's a really, really beautiful play, I think.

And what do you love about theatre? Because I do think it was such a brave decision for you to go off the back of this. this heart stop attention and go and do Sweeney Todd in Broadway. Yeah, I mean, I grew up doing loads of amateur theatre in the Isle of Man and that was like my passion and still is my passion. And so, I know, theatre's always been like, like film and TV is great. And it's really fun to get to do that and I love doing that. But theatre is, you know, it feels like it's real acting.

You get to act a whole story the whole way through. And then doing musicals, I just love musicals. And I got the opportunity to do that. And so I was like, yeah, fuck it. If you do karaoke, do you choose? I hate karaoke. Do you? Hate it.

You know what it is? You know what it is? Because all my f***ing friends are so talented and amazing. And you go into karaoke with like singers and then it's just not fun. That's not fair. It's not fair. But you can sing. Yeah, but not.

Okay. Like I can sing a song that I have rehearsed and done and over it and prepares. But then when you go into karaoke and. And I just, I find the karaoke so stressful. You see, now, I love karaoke. I can't sing. And so I opt for a rap. So that's my gift to you.

What's your karaoke song? Skeelos, I wish. Great. Yeah. Great. Is it true that you can do a Rubik's cube in less than 90 seconds? I can. Wow.

Someone at school told me that I wouldn't, I couldn't do it. And so I went home and taught myself for overnight because that's the kind of person. I, at least more, maybe not am there so much anymore. But I very much feel like sometimes I have to prove myself. And so I was like, I'll f*** you are you. And then I did it. And why do you think you feel you have to prove yourself? Or did then?

I don't know. Maybe some sort of like wanting to be like accepted and liked. Probably comes down to that. And do you feel accepted and liked now? To an extent. Yeah. I think maybe it's more that now I, I, try not to care as much

but then also there are things that like I do really try to be liked accepted for and yeah I think it's just different now so many of us will relate to this I also have that tendency where I want people to like me

and to accept me because it feels scary not being and at the advanced age of 46 I still haven't quite nailed it but this podcast has actually genuinely really helped me, both because I can show up as my true self, flaws and all, but also because the community that's grown around it, I'm incredibly appreciative of.

And I wonder when you're a famous actor, as you are, whether there is a degree of validation that comes from that, that is actually quite profound. Yeah, I think so. What does your mum think of your fame? I think she finds it, like, the fame itself weird. and sometimes slightly overwhelming. She still is a teacher in the eye of man. And then sometimes people will message you, be like,

oh, do you think Joe could do this for me? And then she doesn't know how to, like, respond to that. I used to, when I was younger, like, think, oh, mom, like, why let me, let me live my life. But looking back now, like, when I was 18 and Hartstabot came out and I was suddenly, like, catapulted into this world that she had absolutely no, idea of or no grasp of what that is, I would be terrified if that was my child. Yes. And actually, when I was 18 and that was happening, I was like, oh, Mom, I'm fine.

Like, it's like, let me just live my life. Whereas now looking back, I was like, yeah, no wonder she was so scared. Yes. Like, I was going to these big industry parties and then flying back to go and finish my A levels and then going to another party and then, like, she obviously would. and couldn't stop me because she wanted me to do the things. But, like, no wonder that, like, she found that really stressful and quite scary. And I should have, well, I guess when you're a teenager, I was living it, I didn't think of it in that way.

It's only in hindsight you can see those things, but, like, I really should have cohesome to like for that. And she sounds like an amazing woman and an amazing parent, being able to strike that balance between love and protection and allowing your child to follow their dreams? Yeah, yeah. She's very selfless. She's always put, like, me above everything for my whole life. Can I ask her name? Helen.

Helen. This is a shout out to Helen. Hi, ma'am. Is it Helen Locke? Helen Locke. That's a great name. Yeah. Okay, before we get onto your failures,

I do need to ask you a few more questions about a heartstopper. Please. Because I know that they're going to be so many people listening who are absolutely obsessed with it, and I'm one of them. Was it bittersweet to say goodbye to the series? Yeah. It felt like the right time and in the right circumstance and like sending a child off to university. Like I was like, okay, like I'm ready to move on with my like life and career and I think the show is ready to like at the perfect time for it to end and, you know, we always.

as a cast, I always talk about heartstop, like, being our version of university, because none of us, most of us didn't go to university because the years we would have been at university, we were doing heartstopper, and we would live in the same apartment buildings, and it was like, it was like our uni. And so, like, now I would have been graduating uni this year if I'd gone. And so finishing heartstopper and that same time was very, like, fitting. It felt, it feels like it's a nice goodbye. Is the film still happening? It's, we filmed it. That's done. Oh, it's Done. And you're a exec producer on that? Yes.

Okay. That's exciting. It was very exciting. It was fun. And I think one of the things that was so obvious as a viewer of heartstopper was the dynamic between you and your cast. I don't think, I mean, obviously you're a great actor, but I don't think you can entirely fake that. It just felt like the friendships were so real. Yeah, completely. Like, we're all, like, they're all my closest friends. I think also there's something about, like, I think. see all of them all the time, but if there's ever a time in my life where I don't see them for

a while, there's a bond that's created there that's, like, it's beyond friendship and what we've all been through together as like a unit that no one else in the world can, like, has been through that thing in the same way we all have. And so that, like, it's nice to know that they will all be in my life until the day I die. Oh. Like regardless of if I don't see them in years and years. Like, yes. It's like family. That for me is the true metric of friendship. You don't have to see each other every single day, but when you do, even if it is within the span of a few years,

you can pick up where you left off. Is there a heartstopper WhatsApp group? There is. There's a few over the years of things. But I think this one now is just called like dinner at Fizzes because we were going for dinner at Fasio's house and that was just, no one's changed the name. And who's the most active on the group? Ooh, I think it really depends

It's not like an active active group chat It's just like if there's like a industry party Everyone's like oh you're going to the Netflix party tonight You're going to GQ Men of the Year Awards Yeah, that sort of thing Okay I bet you're rubbish on WhatsApp I bet you do

I'm the worst reply Yeah, that's what I was about to say I am so bad I have probably like I'm sorry to everyone I like haven't replied to I just like I'll read a text And I'll be like Okay yeah yeah and then I'll

just forget to reply. And then it just gets really stressful because there's like so many to reply to. So once a week, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go through it. I reply to it. I reply to it. But then they will reply when you're still messaging. And then I don't know what to do again.

A final question on this. Did you watch adolescence? I did. What did you think in terms of adolescence is obviously also set in a high school, grappling with some similar issues, but in a very different way? Yeah. What did you make of it? I mean, I could talk about this.

hours, the rise of like the right-wing populism within young men. I think it's such an interesting and terrifying thing. And I think that's something that that show talked about and grappled with in a really accessible way, which is so great. I just don't know, like, what we do to stop it. Yeah. Well, I think shows like Heartstopper are in many ways the vehicle through which we change. because there's something so delightful about that show

in that it accepts every single character for who they are without over-explaining it and I think if we adopt that attitude as a broader culture then we'll be doing so much better. Yes, that would be nice if we would do that as a culture. During the Volvo Fall Experience event discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures

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Ooh, are those beautiful gold earrings? Did she pay full price? Or that leather tote? Or that cashmere sweater? Or those knee-high boots? That dress, that jacket, those shoes. Is anyone paying full price for anything? Stop wondering.

Start winning. Winners, find fabulous for less. Let's get on to your failures. They're big ones. They're profound. You went there. Well, you know, I looked at some people like, oh, like my driving test. Like, I failed my driving test twice, but like...

Me too. I don't know once, sorry. Well, I felt it twice. And then my third time when I passed it, he turned to me. He said, so you've passed, but I've got a lot of concerns. And I just, I was like, well, you told me I've passed now, so I'm not listening. So can you not remember what any of the concerns were? I drove too fast.

I break too late. So I got loads of like minors on my test, but didn't get any majors. So I didn't get any majors, so I didn't fail. That's so funny. I think now I think I'm one of the best drivers I know. Well, this is actually so interesting because even though it's not one of your failures, I think it's a metaphor for life

because I also, I did an almost perfect drive for my first driving test. Me too. I was so proud of myself until the last few minutes and then I rolled back on a Hill Start which I've never done the same thing. Stop it, Joe, we're the same person. And I've never done that before

and actually I'm amazing at Hill Starts. And it was an automatic fail. Second test, because I just thought, well, there's no point. There's just no point in trying. I got the same examiner, and I made so many minor faults, but I passed because I think I was slightly more relaxed. Yeah. And now, as a consequence, I think I'm a far better driver. Yeah, I think I'm a great driver now.

So you see, failures actually equip us to succeed better. Exactly. There was a little bonus failure. Thank you so much. Okay, we finally landed that point. Your first failure is your failure to enjoy your youth. Yes. Tell me about your youth.

So I mentioned that you grew up on the Isle of Man. Yeah. What's that like? So the Alaban is amazing to grow up in. I think growing up there, I didn't appreciate how good of a place to grow up it was until I, like, now can look back in hindsight. And like the freedom of living and growing up in such a free, like, safe place where like I would go out with my friends and I just knew when to come home when it got dark or like. There was a lot of freedom in that, which was amazing. Acting and the entertainment industry is such like an interesting career because it's one of the few careers that someone so young can be in such a position of, I guess, power in the workplace.

And because of that, I think I realized like last year that I was living the life of someone. in their mid-30s and I was 20 and I would go and visit my friends at their unies and I'd feel so out of place because I wasn't living a young person's life and I found that really like hard and I found that I realized that I just I needed to take stock and like change some things in my life to then try and enjoy what I had of my youth and I think for a while I like resented the fact that my job meant that I had like couldn't be so young and do the young people things but I realized I was like well I'm doing the job I love I'm living my dream I just need to like enjoy the youth through that yes like the parts of it I can and my

my experience of being 21 is very different to what most 21 year old's experiences are but I'm still 21 and I still should enjoy that. So talk to me a bit about what your experience of being 21 is and what young things, quote unquote, you might have liked to have done. Well, I think it's not like I have a stable income. I have, I rent my own home. I do all these things that are very like grown up and adult and I have meetings with my accountant and I, I don't know, talk to.

a financial advisor. My friends are all, my friends in the acting world are all like buying houses and doing really grown up adult things and are in long term grown up relationships. And I was like going down that path. And last year I was like, I have never been able to experience like having a summer fling or going to a club and kissing someone or like, I don't know, going on a shit holiday to Mallorca with my friends and like my life had just taken me in a different path

and I was beginning to resent the fact that I didn't like go to university or do the things that I had because when I was growing up I was like oh you like he saw me and he was like well he's going to go to uni he's going to do this my whole life sort of planned and then obviously other things had other plans

which is great and I'm like not that I'm so happy for at that. But I think I realized that I'd got so overwhelmed in that world of like, oh, I need to be this person that I am now, that I'd forgotten how old I actually was and how little life experience I'd had and how I needed to just slow down and live my life. Yeah, because you're also the oldest child, aren't you? And you come across as someone who is so mature and sorted and I am but also I need to and I'm trying to like not always be that person yeah and did you get any help with this that when you realize that there was a slight

tension there yeah well I um got out of a relationship which was a good thing for for becoming young again um and then I one of my best friends Dylan um is the most inspiring woman and she just taught me to just like enjoy the fun things because I think I realized that I wasn't like letting myself enjoy young people think it's because I had this like high pressure life and she was just like you just need to just like let yourself have more fun and let yourself like make like the young people things that you do like going out and getting really drunk and then vomiting in the toilet. Like, I would, like, stop myself, I don't know, doing that.

So did you go and do? Yeah, it's great. But also, like, well, doing it and not, like, having, like, a life crisis and, like, falling off the, like, I still am myself. I'm not going to change that, but I don't know. I've really been enjoying this year being young again. Because I feel like last year I spent that whole year living someone, living the life of a 35-year-old.

Yes. And was there a fear attached to, if you did let yourself go, quote unquote, that you would also be seen to be doing that? Because a lot of 20-somethings can make those mistakes in private. Yeah. That was a big part of it is like, I don't know, not feeling an added pressure.

I'm not being able to do those on such a public scale. Yeah. But I realized that I wasn't doing those things, because I was so terrified of, of, not the repercussions because I wasn't doing anything wrong, but like, it, like, my worst nightmare would have been, like, me going to a club and kissing someone and it being all over Twitter. Yes. Like, that, like, no thanks. But I also realized, no one actually gives a fuck. No one cares, Joe.

Like, you're so egotistical that you think someone's going to film you kissing someone in the club and put it on, like, no one cares. I mean, some people might care, but, like, you just got to do it in a different way. Like, I probably wouldn't go to heaven and do it there. Because it's like, but you can let yourself go and have fun and be not so, like, all tight up and in your own way. It sounds to me like there's something around trust here, sort of trusting yourself as well as trusting that you're safe. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I'm so glad that you're having some well-deserved fun. Yeah, this year's been my year of trying to have more fun.

And you don't need to tell me this, but I'm interested. When you say you got out of a relationship, was the reason for getting out of it because you wanted to have fun? I've made that sound trivial. I didn't mean to. No, it was a lot because I realized I wasn't ready in my life to be in a very, like a long-term grown-up relationship. Yeah. The social media of it all, how do you handle it? I'm very aloof on social media.

You're very cat-like. Yeah, I like post something and then will disappear and then I keep my social media quite work-focused, which can sometimes go into the personal because my work is so into time with my life. Do you care what people you don't know think of you? I used to say no, but I think that anyone who says they don't care what people they don't think of them are lying, even if they think they're not. the time I don't but sometimes yeah it's not that I care what they think of me but I would

rather they think of me in a certain way yes like I want would rather shape the way that they think of me in a way that I think is positive rather than I guess exactly what they think of me that is such a smart response yes that makes total sense because it goes back to trust and control yeah yeah I like having control yeah Me too. Tell me a little bit about being raised by women and how you think that has shaped you. I was saying to my friend the other day that I think I've got like reverse misogyny because of my upbringing. In the way that like I would, if I was like choosing a team of people like for work or whatever, I would never choose a man or woman.

I would always choose a woman like for everything. I love you. Like like it's probably bad and it's probably just as bad as being misconduct. But that's my truth. I think it's fine because the pendulum has to swing so far the other direction that it's just recalibration. Yeah. Yeah. Like I would like always trust.

I feel far more comfortable being in spaces with women than I do men. And I don't know if that's just because of my upbringing because I also had an amazing male figures in my life. But my mum and her sisters were very like my grandma and my granddad also was great. I'm my dad, I'm a bit older as well. But my mum and her sisters are very much so were very, like, strong influences on my life. When you say you feel more comfortable in a room full of women rather than men,

what about men who aren't straight? Would they be the same? Oh, even more so. Really? Yeah. Sorry. No, no, I know. That's not necessarily true.

But I think that I would feel comfortable in the room of gay men. But also, now in my life, I'd feel comfortable in the room of straight men a way that I definitely wouldn't have when I was younger, like at school and things, which I think also looking back wasn't necessarily their fault or my perception that I had this idea that I thought that the bro-y straight guys wouldn't like me. And so therefore, I didn't put myself in those scenarios, so therefore wasn't comfortable in those scenarios. Whereas now, I look back and

I think actually, like, most of those people that I was scared of were actually really lovely guys and nice people and I maybe was just as much putting on them what I thought they, like projecting onto them what I thought they would be rather than what they actually were. Yes. There's that thin line between protecting yourself and defensiveness. Yeah. So we're talking about your youth, but I wonder if we could spool forward. So as you mentioned, you're about to turn 22. So when you're 44, if you can imagine that advanced age, what would you like your life and career to look like

oh I'd love to have a family probably quite a new family because I can't see myself having a family for a while and I'd love to like still be doing this job and the job I love but maybe a little bit slower maybe like just Because I feel like right now, like in my 20s, I'm like, bam, bam, bam, let's go, let's work, all of it.

Which is, I love it. But I can see myself wanting to slow down and enjoy my life with my hopefully children. I'd love to have kids. I think you'd be an amazing dad. I hope so. I hope so. Well, even that response to me, look, and he's touching wood, if you're listening to this, even that response to me shows that you'd be amazing.

Because you're not arrogant in any way, shape or form. Okay, your second failure is your failure to believe in yourself. Talk about a seamless link. Well, yeah. Actually, I was like, believing myself sounds so eggy. And so I was like, something like back myself, but it is believing myself. Like, I think I, this one for a long time and still a lot, I feel like an imposter in my career because I was not handed the job.

Like, I was just very lucky. and I was very lucky that Hartstab chose me and then I got a great agent and then I was lucky that other things fell into place and so for a long time I felt like I didn't necessarily belong in the job that I'm in and so therefore I didn't really have like I believe that I could make a career out of it

and I think there's quite a lot of the times that I still find myself just like feeling so grateful to be in the spaces I'm in that I forget that like oh no like, I've actually worked quite hard to be here. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask what that open casting call process was like?

Yeah. It taught me through everything. They sent an open call out. I sent it in my headshot and then I did a self-tape. How did you find out about the call-out? A friend of my mum sent it to my mum and was like, oh, this looks cool. You should show it to Joe. And then I was like, cool.

So, thanks, Nikki. Shout out to Nikki. Shout out to Nikki. Helen's friend. Yeah. And then I sent in a self-tape. Is it really excruciatingly cringe having to do a self-tape? The worst.

I hate self-tapes. Like, now I've done many of them and it's easier, but it's not fun. I much prefer going in the room for an audition. That is so much better. Yeah, because you have to sort of put your eye up on the cooker. It wasn't for people don't get to like... see you as a person. Every job I've gotten I've gotten because I was able to go in the room.

Okay, so you do a cringy self-tape, which I'm sure is great. They asked me if they could release it and I was like publicly, and I was like, over my dead body, release that and I will sue you. Sue you. That was such a shame because there's this, there's this corner of TikTok that I'm obsessed with, which is actors doing self-takes. Can I say something controversial? I think all of them are bad. I know.

Every self-tape, even the best actors in the world, I think all self-tapes are inherently just not good. Yeah, okay. So we're never going to see. Never going to see. Maybe when you die, it will be able to... I'm going to put it in my will. Do not release.

Okay, so you send the self-tape. And then I think I did another self-tape, maybe. And then a few Zoom calls, but it was during COVID. So it was all like I was doing my A-levels. I was in the Isle of Man. recording it over, like, loads of books, because I didn't have, like, a tripod or anything at that point. And then they flew me out to London. It was just, like, when was that, 2021?

And then I did a chemistry read and then got the part. And how did they tell you you got the part? So by that point, the cast and George had helped me get my agent, which I'm so grateful for because me and my agent, I have an amazing relationship now. and like he's he's the best um he's a man so well that's good yeah you've got a man in your team i know i think he's yeah he's the only man in my team okay literally is it's great so i did my audition and i flew back to the isle of man and because it was covid i had to isolate on my own in my house for two weeks so my mom had to move out just me and the dog and so my agent rang me to tell me but it was just on my own in my house oh my goodness it made the two weeks

of isolating worth it though because i was like oh i've got something to look forward to. Did you allow yourself to celebrate on your own with your dog? I think I did. I don't really remember, but I'm sure I probably got like a dominoes and I wish to movie. I love a dominoes. I actually love the two weeks of just being on my own and having to be. Yeah. The force, that was, that was fun. It's so interesting though, given what we're talking about with this failure, that failure to believe in yourself, because the way that that happened is so unusual. Yeah. That it, it, in and of itself was like, an isolating experience as well as being a happy one.

Yeah. And I think, like, it was an amazing experience, but because I didn't technically, I don't know, get to, like, prove myself in the way that other people who are in this job have through, like, going to drama school or, and like working their way up, I, I don't know, it didn't feel, like, not like I deserved, yeah, like I deserved it. Yeah. In a way. Has that feeling lessened with time?

Yeah, I think for the year after Hartster, but I hadn't got any other jobs and I remember I kept thinking like, okay, well, when I get another job, that's like when I can like, I'll be like, oh, I'm an actor. Because people are like, oh, what do you do? I'd be like, oh, I would hate saying I'm an actor because I was.

But I didn't know, I felt very, like I didn't, I shouldn't be saying because I don't deserve to say that. Yeah. And then I got another job. and then I was like still felt word about letting myself, I don't know, back myself in that way. You were still uncomfortable saying it. Yeah.

It's so interesting. It is. You are an actor. I'm an actor, yeah. You are. Yeah. And you're a really, really great one. Thank you.

And you're going to have a long career of proving yourself over and over again. We're touching wood again. My final question on this is really, are there people who make you feel like that in this industry who, maybe judge you for not having you into drama school, not being freshly trained, or is it an internal job that you're making yourself feel that? I'd say it's internal. I mean, I'm sure there are people, but they wouldn't tell me. Yeah. And I actually have found that, like, everyone in the industry is, it's a really small group of people, especially people like my age, and everyone is so, like, supportive of each other. Especially when you're, like, going for the same parts,

it's like, it can be hard, but everyone is, yeah. in my experience so it's a very internal feeling do you think that there are enough opportunities for young joe locks like you growing up in the Isle of Man coming from a background of like hardworking people are there enough opportunities for people like you in this industry no I think that the film industry is still very it's got a very strong relationship with the class system in a way that other industries may be, I guess all industries do in a way. And I think that open casting is a great way of making that more accessible. Yes.

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Hey, happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. Your final failure, Joe, is your failure to let yourself fail? Yeah. How early do you think that failure started? Like, early as I can remember.

I remember quitting football club after the first week. because I know I wasn't good at it and I'm not like I'm not good at not being good at things or I don't let myself do things I'm not I know I'm not very good at which I think I've recently realized it's meant that like I actually missed out on a not I missed out but like not let myself do things missed out on a lot because I've I've stuck to the things I'm good at rather than like doing things I'm actively bad at and I think everyone should do things they're bad at because but I'm so scared of like being embarrassed and letting myself fail in front of the people

and letting other people see the failure that I just oftentimes stop that. I completely relate. Where do you think that fear and embarrassment piece comes from? Is it a feeling of not belonging? I think it's really closely related to like small town growing up in a small town.

Like the other man's great but I think there's this thing when you grew up somewhere so small and everyone knows everyone that like you have to fit it. and you have to like abide by certain like social rules um and so when you don't it you stand out and so i very much learned to like fit in in my things and stick to the things i was good at do you think your sexuality played into that maybe but i don't not hugely yeah i've been

very lucky and I have never I had a great experience with my sexuality and like no one ever gave me shit for it do you do anything now that you know you're not very good at um

no you know what I I want to I'm trying to more I've started Pilates and I got told by my employees instructed that I have the flexibility for 55 year old so I'm not really good at that well that's good for it ties into your first failure failure of youth yeah exactly I have to fail a lot yes in my job and like I remember last week

in rehearsal we were getting in I got a note from the director and I was really tired and I like took it so personally and then I was like thing I was like it's just just like over it I think that's my, I've got, I think it's related to like a fear of, again, like, people pleasing and not, someone not liking me because I'm bad at something or like embarrassment from that. You want to be perfect in order to be lovable. Yeah, but you can't. But you're the most lovable version of yourself when you are your real self, which is imperfect. Exactly. And that thing about taking notes personally, again, I relate, not as a world famous actor, but when someone delivers what I experience as criticism, the chances are I will take it person, but that's

okay, because I believe that being able to take things like that personally, but also being able to understand if there's a seed of truth in it and actionable feedback, the personal bit enables me to be empathetic and it enables you to be empathetic and to understand other people's emotions. So I wouldn't take it away. Yeah. And I think it's one of those things where you have to be compassionate with yourself and say, not get over it. Like, I understand that I, Joe, I'm going to take this. I'm going to feel it deeply. But feeling deeply is part of my superpower.

That's my advice. I definitely feel deeply. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But what you say about not doing things that you're not good at? I remember once interviewing Malcolm Gladwell on this podcast. And one of his failures was failure to run.

So he used to be a championship runner in high school. And then there came a point in his midlife where he just realized he was an entirely mediocre runner and he never actually made it to where he thought he was going to make it but he deliberately still runs because there's joy to be had in the mediocrity.

That's great. Yeah. I really like that. It's so good, isn't it? It's like doing something not because you're getting anywhere with it but doing it because you're sitting in the contradiction of it.

Yeah. So I think Pilates might be your way through. I think so. Pilates started in the Isle of Man, a little known fact. Did it? Joseph Pilate was in an internment camp in World War I in the Isle of Man in Norkelo Farm, and he started Pilates. That's my life fun fact that I like, that's an incredible fact. Yeah.

Because everyone's like, no, it doesn't. No. And I'm like, well, Google it. That's incredible. Yeah. So Joseph Pilates lived in the UK, but when it was interned? He was interned in the Isle of Man. That's amazing, Joe.

Yeah. You see, well, you're great at facts. I have a very good, like... memory like that. What is your most embarrassing failure, do you think, that you've had to just live with and grow from? Is there a terrible audition? I mean, there's been many terrible auditions.

I know what my most embarrassing is, but I'm not saying on a podcast because I wanted to stay hidden and away from the world. Okay. Will you tell me afterwards? I'll tell you afterwards. Okay, great. Thank you.

What do you think? failure has taught you or these three failures specifically that i have a lot of growing to do still and that's okay i think because of my life i have have had to i felt like i've had to be like perfect and done and fully like ready as an adult and i'm not there yet and that's fine yes and we're all still growing yeah what an amazing note to draw this to a close on but i I do want to ask you one very, very important question, which is about your eyebrows. Okay. Your eyebrows are amazing.

Thank you. And I'm a big eyebrow advocate. I think brows, forget the eyes, brows the window to the soul. Have you always had great eyebrows? I actually have a great eyebrow singular. Okay. And I actually was supposed to go and get threaded yesterday, the middle bit, but I didn't have any time. So I just plucked the, I actually didn't.

I got my one blade and went this morning, which is why you used to you when I was like 12. There's pictures of me from when I was, like, in year seven at school. And my eyebrows, like, here and here. Oh, Joe. Because it just, I, like, just would go with a razor, and it would just go like that. But I've always had very thick eyebrows. So it's like, so left natural. It's like a Frida Carlo.

Yeah, very much so. And up here, like, it goes all the way up here. Wow. Anyway. So I get them, I don't get them, like, threaded. I just get, like, just a little bit, you know, just a little. And it's fucking sore. It's so painful.

So painful. Yes. You have fantastic eyebrows. Do you think they help your acting? You know what? I think they sometimes infringe on acting because I quite have quite expressive eyebrows. Yes.

And so I often, when I watch myself, I think, gosh, that's doing a bit too much there, Joe, which I probably am not, just because the eyebrows, they give it. It looks like I'm doing a lot. I can't wait to see them on stage. On stage, they're going to be great. They're going to be great.

I can do the bit more and be a bit bigger. Joe Locke, I've loved having you on How to Fail. Thank you so, so much for trusting me. And good luck with the play. one must go and see it. Yes, please go watch it. When does it open? 17th of September to the 22nd of November at the Trafalgar Theatre.

Clarkston, starring Joe Locke. Joe, thank you so, so much. Thanks for having me. Please do follow How to Fail to Get New Episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day in Sony Music Entertainment Original Podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you.