How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Kate Hudson - ‘Fame is a tumultuous machine’

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Kate Hudson’s comedic turn in How To Lose A Guy in 10 Days made that movie one of the greatest romantic comedies of the noughties, and her performances in everything from Bride Wars to Glass Onion have each been totally scene-stealing. This month, she stars in Running Point, a new Netflix comedy from Mindy Kaling, and she has just released her first album, Glorious. Her failures are open, honest and so very wise. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My schedule has been so hectic recently, running around trying to keep on top of my writing days, my podcast recordings, there are live shows coming up. It's super exciting, but that's just work. Amongst all of this, I'm conscious of making time for my husband, my wider family and my friends. And I need all the help I can get coordinating everyone's schedules to make sure we all have time to meet up. That's where the Life360 app comes in. It's a location sharing app that makes coordinating your family's daily routines and activities so much smoother. You can just open up the app to see real-time locations for everyone in your family, eliminating the stress of wondering where everyone is and

saving you from constantly asking where they are. It means I'm not messaging my husband all the time asking where he is or how long it is until he gets home. I don't have to bother him with the extra admin. Get peace of mind knowing where everyone in your family is at any given time. Life360 keeps you connected and works whether you're on iPhone or Android. Download the app today and family proof your family with Life360. Welcome to How to Date, the pod class that teaches you what you need to know about navigating modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day. And I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life.

Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests, and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes that failing better is a path to succeeding better too. This week, I'm so excited to say we have actual Kate Hudson. And I just wanted to give you a reminder before we get on to the main episode to join us for Failing with Friends, our subscriber episode where Kate Hudson gets to act as your agony aunt and we answer listener questions, requests for advice and some insights into

listener failures too. You just have to be okay not being there for everybody after. Do join us by following the link in the podcast notes and if you have a question or a failure that you'd like me and my guests to discuss, look out for my monthly call outs on Instagram, or you can follow the link in the show notes to contact us there. Thank you so much. Kate Hudson was once described by an admiring journalist as the human equivalent of chicken soup when you're ill. And it's certainly true that as an actress, she has starred in some of my favourite feel-good watches over the years. She rose to prominence for her luminous

portrayal of Penny Lane in Cameron Crowe's Almost Famous, for which she won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Oscar. Her comedic turn as wisecracking magazine journalist Andy Anderson in How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days made that movie one of the greatest romantic comedies of the noughties, which is my opinion, but it's also correct. And her performances in everything from Bride Wars to Glass Onion have each been scene stealing in their own way. Raised by actors, her mother is Goldie Horne, the man she calls her father is Kurt Russell, Hudson acknowledges that storytelling is in the family blood and turned down a place at

New York University to pursue acting. Her 40s have so far proven to be a decade of intense creativity. This month she returns to the small screen in Running Point, a new Netflix comedy from Mindy Kaling. Hudson stars as a reformed LA party girl, unexpectedly appointed president of the family's professional basketball team. Last year, Hudson also released her first album, Glorious, which entered the Billboard charts at number 10. It's a multifaceted output that stems perhaps from her admission that in life, I just feel everything.

It's so true. Is it? It's true. Oh my God. When did I say that? I do. I feel everything. You said it in an interview where the journalist quoted your teenage journal at you. And apparently you had written this journal entry when you were... Sorry, this is that creepy bit where I sound like a stalker. I love it. Because you forget these things, you know what I mean? That was probably a little bit a while ago. But I do remember, and now I want to remember what journalist that was, because I

actually remember that. I'll send you the link. Oh, send it to me. But let's focus on this interview. OK. And first of all, let me welcome you officially to How to Fail, Kate Hudson. Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy to have you. That idea of feeling everything, is that hard sometimes? I mean, yes. If you're, you know, I wouldn't con... I'm empathetic, you know, I think real hardcore empaths like carry the world on their shoulder. They don't know how to escape their empathy, which is also in a weird way can be very debilitating and hard to live with, you know, and hard to be friends with people who just, you know, but they're also incredibly important in this world

to be a real like empath. I feel things strongly. I see it in my daughter. Like it's like, I walk out into a day and it's like, I just can't wait to see what the day is gonna bring. I look at a sky and I can feel everything about the beauty of a sky, even like the most terrible days, right? So it's like, I think it's, my senses are very keen and aware.

And so I just feel, I feel it all. That's so well expressed and I relate to a lot of it. And I find it difficult because I think I am empathetic. I find it difficult when people criticize me not to take it very personally. Now, I'm a little podcaster, but for someone who is as famous as you are, that must have been tricky at one point in your life, I'm guessing. Did you make a decision about what to let in and what to keep out at some point? I learned, I mean, because I grew up observing and being a witness to it and like the ups and downs of it, like not only just

sort of my family, my family has had extraordinary careers, very few downs, you know, but their friends and people who work in the industry, like you do really grow up realizing that it's a very tumultuous machine. Like one minute you're at the top and the next minute you're trying to figure out why you're not getting paid to write this movie or

direct this movie. It's just constantly, you're constantly at the whim of executives and financiers. So it is tumultuous and you can't always be on top. So I knew that going in and I knew that like if you get into the arts you just have to love it. If you love it, then you're gonna be okay because you figure out that talent will always win and work ethic and all the other stuff is just noise. And then there's sort of age. So then like, let's put age to the equation.

My 20s, when you're first entering success, it's like, there's so much coming at you that you could get caught up in the new, the little nuances of it, get frustrated by it, it makes you feel violated sometimes, you know? And it is. It's incredibly, it encroaches on your life. It's very, um, intense. Uh, and then if you have a good sense of self, you realize that it has nothing to do with you. It's just the way it works. So, you try to, like, have other things matter more than you.

Mm. I had more, I think, more perspective because of how I was raised. So, there are so many things I want to ask you about, but I'm about to get on a tangent and I need to ask you about Running Point and Glorious. Okay, okay. Yeah, let's just get that out of the way. Running Point, I loved both for different reasons. Running Point is such a blast. Was it as fun to make as

it is to watch? One of the best times of my life making a show, well it was a show, I say movie, but working with people. We had so much fun. It was so much fun. And I would leave work because it's long hours. I didn't realize how long a show is and when you're like starring in the show, it's like 5 a.m. to 7 30. I was not with my family, hardly. And that was really hard. And I remember thinking one day when I was going home from work, thank God, I love these people so much because this is some of the hardest hours I've ever worked on a show.

I can't wait to go to work in the morning. If I didn't have that experience with these people, it would have been a disaster. I just want to be home with my kids. But instead I was like, bye kids. Very happy to leave right now. There are some zingers in the dialogue. And one of the things that comes up early on is this idea, I'm going to get the phrasing, wait, I've got it written down. Men can fuck up when they get big

jobs. Women have to be perfect off the bat. And I was like, oh my God, that's so resonated deep inside me. Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of lines like that, but not always just about, you know, like women in the workplace. Like it's just a lot of lines that you're gonna be like, oh, that totally resonates. And a lot of lines were like, wow, they got it. Are they gonna get away with that?

But yeah, I mean, that is the world she's entering. And Jeannie Buss, who's the president of the Lakers, is what this is loosely inspired by. And she's one of our producers on the show. And it was really her idea for the show. And I mean, it's one thing to be like a woman in a man's world. It's another thing to be the first woman to run a major basketball,

professional basketball franchise. I mean, there is not one woman in that. I mean, in the community, it's so male heavy. Do you think that you have been underestimated as a woman in your industry, but also as someone who is such a brilliant romantic comedic lead. I imagine that there are people who sometimes watch those movies and think that it seems effortless. Yet, it's clearly not. There's so much talent that goes into that level of comedic timing. AMT – I think there is a thing about female comedic leads that are in, are really like

what you would consider dramedy, they call them rom-coms, but that sort of dramatic comedic line. It's not full comedy. You're sort of walking this kind of line of comedy and accessibility and honest and like ground being feeling grounded. It really isn't something I think everybody can do and you see it in I mean as a producer like as I get older, you know, I can see it in some young talent and young girls. Yeah, I think that sometimes for sake of money, that a lot of the industry will sometimes shy away from really leaning into the right talent. I just, again, another tangent, but How To Use A Guy In 10 Days. I don't know if you're sick of talking about it, but I just want to thank you so much for

that movie. What you do in that film is beyond brilliant. We've got our love firms in the studio today for you. I just wanted to thank you for that really. It's a great movie. We just lost our producer on that. She passed in October. I'm so sorry. Yeah, but you were saying,

and I was thinking about this when you were saying, have you ever felt underestimated? And I was so lucky to have women like Linda Opsed, really, she took me on that film from the very beginning, from the writing process, from the writing process, from writing to hiring the director, to hiring cast, to production design. She wasn't like, I'm producing this movie.

It's like we were absolute partners. We did everything together and she was a very notable producer, has produced some great films. The fact that she took a 22 year old young girl and empowered me to be a partner with her was, is not often. So I feel like I have been blessed with so many people who actually almost encouraged me to put my ideas out there,

to be like your ideas matter, what you think matters. It's as I reflect on my career, I got very lucky in that way. So it's something you pay forward. As you get older, produce yourself, that you give younger women the courage to be like, your ideas need to be heard in this room, you know, and not underestimate them because

it's new, because it's new for them. I used to hate the week before a period. It was that crushing existential sense that I was really, really depressed and then I'd actually get my period and it would all make sense. The spots, the fatigue, the hot flushes, the cravings, the sugar cravings were extreme. Now however, it's easier to manage PMS with estro control. Estro control is a formula developed by Happy Mammoth, a supplement company dedicated to making women's lives easier. Estro control contains science-backed herbal extracts that help support hormonal health, especially in women who suffer from PMS. The ingredients help support the liver, and that's where our hormones get processed, especially

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modern romance. I'm podcaster and author Elizabeth Day, and I'm Mel Schilling, relationship coach. Every week, we aim to give you the skills you need to show up as yourself on the apps and in real life. Join us for frank expert advice, brilliant guests and practical exercises that will leave you feeling empowered to make the changes you need to meet the person that is worthy of you.

Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, your first failure. And another reason I now love you even more is because of your failures. Your first failure, you just sent it to me, relationships. I was like, well, let's talk what I loved about your, this podcast. I don't believe in failure. Me neither. Like, it is who we are. Like, it's such, the fear of failure is what stops people from making and doing great things. Like, period. Like, you can't do anything ever if you, I mean,

what's that great quote? Like, fail, fail again, fail harder, fail better. Yeah. Well, it was like a president. Fail, bastard, fail. I think it was Simon. Or something. Whoever it was, we loved it. Fail at every great of things.

Fail, just fail at it, you know? And the only thing that stops us from doing anything is the fear of failure. And then, you know, when you have those fears, I remember one of my exes said to me, I was doing something, he said, well, what are you scared of? And I'm like, I don't know, I'm just, he's like, what's the worst that can happen? Just what is it?

And I'm like, I'll fall. He's like, okay, I was doing something on a stage, I'm like, I'll fall. And he's like, so, I was doing something on a stage. I'm like, I'll fall. And he's like, so what happens if you fall? I was like, I'll get up. It was literally that dumb. You know, it was like, oh, I just literally said my worst failure is that I would slip and fall.

And he's like, and then you just like stand up and make it, I don't know what, is that really what you're scared of? And I was like, oh, it's so interesting. We work ourselves up because we're so afraid we're going to get it wrong. And then you're like, you know what, I'd rather not do it. Which is the worst failure of all. Yeah. Then you just always wonder what it would be.

Yes. If you had the courage to make an album. Well, exactly that. To do something that is your great fear of failure. If I fail at this, what will that do? I think for me, making the album was really, I mean, the only reason why I never got into music is because I think that was

the most vulnerable creative place for me. And if I would have put that out as a young girl, I don't know if I'd be prepared for the criticism or when people want in, like what I was talking about earlier, I don't know if I could have handled that well because it's so personal to me. And I needed more time to like grow into myself. Or if it would have been like panned or not well received, I think it would have like destroyed me, my spirit. And so,

you know, there is a time too for things for you to be like ready for the move. Yes. And it also felt with Glorious, like the universe was telling you, you were ready. Because I love the story of how it came about, that you were asked to perform firework, and a fellow parent, Linda Perry, is this right? Oh, well, that's not how it came about. Okay. No, really what happened was, I had before COVID, I had such a fear of singing live. And I would get asked all the time, will you come sing at this event or will you sing here?

Because people internally know that I love to sing, but I would be like, absolutely not, like terrifying, no way. And my friend was getting married and she asked if I would sing at her engagement party. And I didn't realize that this engagement party was going to be in this huge theater with a big band and every person in our industry. And when I got there, I just froze and I was like,

I can't do this. I can't. I was pregnant with Ronnie. I was like, and I hated myself for being so afraid. And the woman that was singing that night is this woman, Maya Sykes. I went to high school with her. We were in chorus together. And I was backstage and I was like, I can't do it.

I can't do this. I don't want to do it. She looked at me, she was like, and these are her words. She was like, I don't know that Kate Hudson. What are you talking about? I hadn't seen her since like high school. You love, what are you talking about? What are you doing?

And she really kind of snapped me out of it because my old young self loved to sing and was never afraid of it. So then I was like, oh, fuck it. I'm getting, I can't, now she's put it out there like, if I don't do this, then I got to go into heavy therapy.

I got to figure out what's going on. When I get on stage, the second I start to sing, everything goes away and I'm so happy. That's what happened and then it was wonderful and I had a great experience. And then I was like, I need to say yes. I need to get on stage and I just need to be doing it because I love it. I love it.

So that was the beginning and then COVID happened. And when COVID happened, it was the glare, it was a couple of years later, the glaring red flashing light. I'm creatively not happy with my output. I love making movies. I can't wait to make more movies, direct them, whatever, produce them.

I love storytelling. But my love, my absolute love of writing music, I cannot be afraid to put it out in the world. Because I'll regret it. I'll die and be like, I can't believe I didn't have the guts to do it. Then it unfolded and I started meeting certain people. I got involved in the parent band at our school,

which is the most amazing parent band of all time. They were like, you should really make an album. I was still going, I don't know. I sang in lockdown in this thing with Tor from Stargate. Linda heard it and just cold called me and was like, do you want to come in the studio? That then became- Okay, got it.

That long, long winded version. But since I don't need the sound bite, that really is amazing. It's amazing. And I can feel your love of music and performing even in the way that you talk about it. I can feel that. And I'm so glad that you've done it. Was part of your reticence, and we're going to go back to relationships now. I love that word.

Was it about your biological father? Was there something there? So he was a musician. Yeah. I mean, I think that I always say I meet my dad at the piano because my music, I think it comes from both sides, but it's very Hudson. I think that you could, I mean, it's a little deep, I'm stretching here, but you could look at this idea of like, my father wasn't there, he wasn't around,

and then all of a sudden I'm going to be entering into the world in which he is and not really wanting to invite that in because I wasn't ready for it. You could get that heady with it. I try to not because there's also just a time and a place in your life. There's the other side for me, which is I became very, like my success as an actor happened so fast and so young. And at the time, you didn't go from movies to music. So it was like that part or that idea or anything that I thought could have been something that I would have done, now for me was like, I can't, it's like the kiss of death.

Like if you fail at that, then like, it's like you're basically just failing. And that wasn't how I felt about myself, but it was the perception of how Hollywood was at the time. So returning to this idea of relationships, I think from what you said, that you and I have a very similar perspective on relationships, which is that a relationship is not a failure simply because it ends. And I speak as someone who is divorced and all of that. But every bad relationship or every relationship that ended has taught me something really meaningful in the fullness of time. And I can still be in a relationship with the relationship in

a way, because it's still part of how I perceive love and how I show up in the world. Is that right? Do you think the same or similar? Yeah, very similar, but I also think that it would be the hardest part about walking away from relationships is the feeling of failure. 100%. relationships is the feeling of failure. 100 percent. So, like for me, that was the hardest thing is letting go of the fact that it feels like a failure or I couldn't make something work or I couldn't fix something. And I think that you try, sometimes it's like, you know, you're trying and it's like, you know, to fit a square peg in the round hole

and it's just never gonna happen. And it's like, if only I could have made it a circle, you know, and it does, especially for people who work really hard at things and love really big and love really hard, like it does feel like a failure. And you have to convince yourself. And then you realize as it heals, you realize that then you start to realize like,

oh, this isn't a failure. This was exactly what needed to happen. And then you can hopefully, because if you look back and you're like, uh-oh, why couldn't I do that? Why couldn't I give that person what they needed? Then you have to do some real reflecting and really figure out what that is.

When I kept going through the process of relationships where it would end and I'd be like, there's only one person here that's responsible for this and it's me. Anybody who's pointing that finger out at other people because they're doing it to you and it's always that person and then it's that person and then it's that person. Like, no, there's only one common denominator and it's gonna be you. And if you're not looking at what you're inviting in or what you're putting out, then you're not gonna change the pattern.

You're gonna keep failing. And when did you get to that point? Oh, I mean, like probably, I mean, I've got three dads. So second dad. I think, you know, what's so interesting is Matthew Bing's dad and I are so close. This is Matt Bellamy. Yeah, we're so close. This is Matt Bellamy. Yeah, we're so close. Like we, I love him, his wife, his family, the kids, our kids are so close.

Ronnie and his little girl, Lavella, they're so close. Like we figured out how to have a very different relationship that isn't about us being together, but we weren't right for each other. We tried really, really, really hard. Instead of blaming or creating the argument or creating the problem, it was just like, I think you have to get to that place.

I did personally, I was like, okay, I don't want wanna keep going down this path. It's very easy for me because I'm an Aries and I like new things and I have the means to take care of my kids by myself. But I want to find the right person, the right fit. And sometimes you're just not. It's not like anyone did anything wrong.

And that was for me when I was like, I gotta kind of figure out my stuff, like my personal, my relationship to myself. Like, what is that? I'd never been alone. And then, yeah, and then I was actually talked about this on, do you know Caller Daddy? Oh, I've listened to it. Yeah then, yeah, and then I was actually talked about this on, Do You Know Caller Daddy?

Oh, I've listened to it. Yeah, yeah. I loved it. And just, you know, then I just went on this sort of like exploration. A year without men. Yeah, I did a year. I did a whole thing. It was like, you know, I took boys out of the equation

and had to just kind of go through this process of feeling very uncomfortable with not having any connection to anything that could ignite my dopamine, my flirtatious, because I am very flirtatious by nature, but anything that could kind of feel like, oh, that's a good distraction. My therapist was like, taking all of that away, all distractions away, and now we're going to focus on what's going on. Where you really get to the bottom of it or to the core of it,

is when your mojo goes down, you're like, I have no like sexual energy. It's weird, like you start to feel almost like this, it was like for me, this is my, I say you, like not everybody has, just my experience. I started to feel this like, kind of like, like I felt yucky, I felt unattractive. I felt, but it was just like, it was almost like peeling away at all of the things that, that, you know, because I didn't

have any outlets for getting dressed up to like, you know, oh, I'm going to get dressed up and go flirt with a boy. Like it just, I just took it away. And then it was like, I can't even explain it. I hit something, I hit this like core of an issue for myself. I had a absolute, like almost like a childhood cry. And it was like a weight had been lifted off of me. And honestly, from that point on, like I could care less about who was texting me.

It was like my life became so happy alone. I was so, I felt very connected to like what I wanted to do, my daily routine with my kids, my cozy time. I didn't care about putting anything on. And so when then I went kind of went back into the dating world, my relationship to dating completely changed. I think you know, because when you're young, like it's you're you know, you've got that thing and you're like you want to like go out in the world and be seen and do and at

least I did. Be validated. Be validated. Oh my god. You end up validating yourself. You end up flirting with yourself and then you're ready. Yeah. And here's the thing.

I thought I was really smart about that. I thought for me, it wasn't like I didn't get it. You know, I was like, I know what my issues are. I know I get it. Like, you know, what are the relationships with father, you know, all of the stuff you talk about in therapy. And I got it. But it took me to actually really have to step away from even just being social. Like it took me to actually have to delve into things that I hadn't even realized I hadn't experienced. And like trauma is a great word that everyone loves on Instagram and everywhere and everything.

But I think that there's, you know, inflicted trauma, there's like real sense of trauma. I think every, when you go through certain things as a kid, there's all these trivial things that become these weird little traumas that you don't even realize were a trauma. Allowing yourself to feel that, I think that was one of the hardest things for me, is that I always felt I'm so privileged. I'm never going to complain about anything.

I'm so lucky. But then when you really try to do the deep work, you realize I have to give work, you realize like, I kind of have to give yourself permission to be like, that didn't feel good in my life at that moment and work through that in order to get, I think, to the places that you need to get to. That is fascinating. And I want to talk about this for like five hours. Because it's so fun because we are complex creatures, you know? I also think there's such thing, and this could be controversial, as therapy overload. I also think like do the deep work and then fucking I'm out.

Like I don't want to do it right now. Like I think you need to take breaks and go experience your life and not always be in like a therapy session. But that's that's this is my personal thing. Like, I did three years of intensive therapy. And I had a great therapist who was like, great. All right, you know, let's if you want to check in every once in a while. And I was like, Oh, and he's like, I don't want to be a therapist forever. And I thought that was so great because I really do think sometimes you have to just go live and then go fail again and then revisit, you know? I mean, fail in the way we like to see failure. Yes.

You know, go have experiences that are challenging and, you know, but continue to check in with yourself. But like, you got to let go too. You're now in a great relationship with Dani. Most of the days. Still a relationship. What do you think are the key things that makes this relationship with Dani different from your previous ones or makes you different within the relationship? That's such a good question.

Well, I would have never ended up with Dani if I hadn't done... If I hadn't been in a place in my life where I was very happy alone. Because I would have never been open to Dani. Like, Dani was my best friend's stepbrother. He, you know, at the time, you know, he didn't live a life that were the circles or the people that I was hanging out around, or we've had, we have two very different life experiences.

And, you know, I would have never like been open to it because my expectation of who I should be with, I just threw out the window. So when he asked me out, I didn't even realize we were on a date and we went on this hike. When I got into his car because he came over and I was like, ''Oh, we're on a date.'' I thought we were just going to hang out because I had known the family for so long.

I was like, ''Oh, this is a date. Like I thought we were just going to hang out because I had known the family for so long. Like, oh, this is a date. And I was just so open that I was able to experience him and see something that was like real, like actually be with someone who really liked me. That there was no, there was nothing about it except that it was just as pure as can be of the connection. There was no like friends trying to set us up. There was no dating app involved. It was just like, it just happened. And I have a lot of friends,

like I was just having this conversation with my friend the other night. And she has like a laundry list of what she's looking for. And I get it, like if you put your vision board, you manifest this is what you're looking for. And I'm not going to do that again. I'm not going to be with someone who doesn't have this, or I want to be with someone who's, I'm not going to date, you know, a short guy, I want tall guy." You realize you're just limiting your ability to love someone. I think because I was so happy alone and because I wasn't looking, that the right person was right in front of me for 14 years.

I knew Danny for so long. And I think the thing about Danny that is where we match well, because I also think that not everybody's... What is it? Not every hat fits? Yeah. Or every hat fits someone. What does it say? As JFK once said.

Whatever it is. I feel like where we're so suited is we have a very strong, like our value system is very similar. It's so cozy. And like when you have that kind of support system, like his value of family is so strong. It's so solid that it just makes all of the times that art can be hard or, you know, where you're challenging, you know, where life challenges you, it just, it makes them so much easier.

It sounds rooted. It's very rooted. And like Esther Perel, do you like us? Do you like? I am obsessed with her. She's why I got into podcasting. Yeah, she's, yeah, I like one, what a wonderful mind and woman. But she says this all the time, and I agree.

It's like, well, I don't agree. I do what I think a lot of people do in relationships, men and women, is that you expect someone to have all of it. It's like, oh, you're supposed to be my best friend, and we're supposed to have sex, and you're supposed to, like, take out, clean all of this up, and you're supposed to be the best father in the world, and you're supposed to be my best friend and we're supposed to have sex and you're supposed to like take out, clean all of this up

and you're supposed to be the best father in the world and you're supposed like, and it's like we put so much pressure on our partners to be everything and it's impossible. Again, it would be setting yourself up to fail if you were constantly berating each other to be everything you expected them to be.

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Thank you for sharing your learned wisdom and expressing it with such eloquence and passion because I know so many listeners will really relate to that. I have this thing sometimes where like people talk about there's like, you know, a lot of open relationships, very hip. I could never do it. Oh, never. I'm just way too jealous. Never.

I would love to be the person who could do it. I do not have the makeup to handle it. I just can't handle it. It wouldn't make me feel good, I don't think. No. That being said, I have so many friends that I love that have so much freedom in the way that they are in relationships, that they're allowing

themselves a very different human experience where they're not, they're doing what they love and they really believe that we don't possess each other. And there's a part of me that's like, God, that's so liberating. If you could live in that. Now, not for me in this lifetime. Maybe next lifetime. Maybe next one.

But what a liberating feeling to really be like, I don't possess you and you don't possess me. And so much of it is social conditioning and what we have introduced onto this planet as a way of making sense of the chaos that surrounds us. So much of it is that and it makes us avoid the truth of our own instincts sometimes. Totally, completely. Also it's like love can change form. This idea that it's supposed to be a romantic partner forever.

When you think about marriage or why we had marriage, I mean, most marriages, I mean, look, we're in the country of where it was really about property ownership, really, right? It was sort of like- People only lived until 40. Yeah. So you're kind of like, you're like, well, you know, and they were, and let me tell you, we've read all the books and we're, you know, all the letters and all of the naughtiness going on,

where people were, you know, had, you know, whether they had lovers or mistresses or, you know, other partners, even though they had this arrangement. Yes. So the question becomes like, is it really what we're meant to do? And how do we maintain that? It can change form too. And I think, you know, without, we don't have to hide that anymore. So I don't know. Let's blow open the institution of marriage, Kate Hudson.

Okay. That being said too, now I'm talking too much. No, no, no, you're not talking enough. Because you're not married, that's what's interesting as well. Yes. And your parents aren't married. But I do have, so I have very different, it's almost like I could write a book on what this is like with your children as well, because I also have the traditional mother-father unit doesn't have to look like that to have strong family values, because to have strong family values. Because I don't know how I did it,

but somehow I've created a unit that is so strong and actually almost like more powerful in a way, because there's more parents. Like we are all on the same page all the time. We show up for each other. We're all on the same page all the time. We show up for each other. We're all in the same room. These, my kids feel so loved by their parents. And, and somehow we've been able to honor each other as adults to actually continue raising our kids as a unit. So like Matt and I go on vacations together.

It's spring break. Do we wanna do it together this year? Or are you gonna go, as the kids get older, it changes, but we've been so tight. And that as a family, it's almost like a bigger version of a very strong unit. So there's, I think that it's how you, the relationship can fail,

but you really can only fail at raising your kids. That I think could be your only failure is that you put yourself before what's in the best interest of a unit for your children. So well put. And it actually does bring us onto your second failure, which is moments of conflict with your children, which I'm riveted to hear you talk about. We've never had this failure on this podcast before,

but obviously it's something that so many people will have to navigate. So on my brother and I have a podcast called Sibling Revelry. It's just such a good name, by the way. I love a pun. We, we, I'm giving, Oliver gets all the credit. He's good with puns. Okay. So we interviewed Dr. Shafali, who wrote a book called The Conscious Parent. And she kind of, that book spoke to me

in a way that it's sort of like my instinct for that felt like it was there, but when I read that book, it changed the way that I parented. Because you bring your own, I guess for, again, the word trauma, but you bring your own issues to raising your children. And only when you realize that you're actually could have gone too far, not said the right thing, not handled the situation in a way that is useful to your kids, that could be traumatic. When you show your kids that you made a mistake,

that you went too far, a great example would be Ryder when he was about 17. You do this as a parent, you can lose it and I just lost it. I just got so mad at him. I went too far in my own anger. It wasn't like, you know, I mean, it wasn't crazy, but it was, I just was like, I went too far.

And I said things that I didn't like and he didn't deserve me to, that wasn't, that was my own stuff. That wasn't, that was my own stuff. That wasn't his. And I think, I remember the argument was over and I just went up to him and I was like, I handled that wrong. You, he's like, mom, mom, got it.

It was like, well, fine, you know, he's 17. No, and my thing was, I will not be that parent that doesn't let them know that there's better ways to figure out conflict. I shouldn't have lost my temper on you. It had nothing to do with you. And there's better ways for me to have done that. It doesn't take away that it really frustrated me

that you keep putting empty wrappers in the pantry. But that just was a catalyst for me to lose it because I'm stressed out over here and I'm like, my first time away, you know? But I could do that better. So I think that those, you know, you do fail, you will constantly fail as a parent. It's just more about how you handle when you know you should actually admit that you made a mistake.

And that doesn't make you weak, it's quite the opposite. No, it's like sometimes I see, you know, I had a friend situation where, oh, like a terrible kind of cheating thing, right? And it was like, this guy couldn't admit that he hurt the mom. Like, it's always like, well, we were doing that. And all the dad had to do was sit his kids down and be like, I should have done that better. I didn't, I was led by this, but I did disrespect our union. And it would be so important for

those kids to hear that coming from their father or mother, whatever, whoever's situation, but that particular situation, if he could have just said, you know, it would have done wonders for the connection with the kids and him. They might be mad at him for a while, but you got to admit when you're wrong. What has your mother, Goldie Horne, taught you about mothering? My mom's not my only parent's guy. So, you know, Kurt, it's their relationship. You know, they've been together 43, 42 years now.

Honesty, I think, again, same thing, like showing. I think my parents showed their flaws to us. They weren't afraid to be like, that was flawed, right? This experience and that argument, or this parenting moment, like I was just saying, we never grew up feeling like our parents were these sort of perfect, authoritative figures. I never felt like a heavy expectation of how I was,

what I was supposed to be for them, right? Like, this is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to get straight A's. You're supposed to, you know, go to this school and try to get into that college and go to that university. That's just not, I had none of that. I was a very artist, like free wheeling kind of family. And with that came all the flaws.

And so I think having a window into imperfection created would be similar to what I think that made us feel like less pressure growing up, that we had to achieve this like, you know, something significant. That we just needed to be happy and enjoy our life kind of, you know, as a, as a rule, first and foremost, are you feeling good in yourself? Kids, do you have kids? I don't, I've tried and failed, but I have three step kids.

Oh, fine. Yeah, I tried for 12 years, fertility treatment, recurrent miscarriage, all of it. And I always thought I would be a mother. And now I'm on the other side of it. And I'm so at peace with not being. And I understand that there are different ways to- And I'm assuming you didn't want to do egg donor. I did egg donor. Oh, you did? Okay. And it didn't work. And then that just kind of tipped me into a place where, in order to keep going,

it could compromise my relationship, and my relationship is so important to me and to both of us. And because my husband already has three children, it wasn't as key for him. And I was also respectful of that, and so we talked it through, and it just felt like the right fit for our unit. Yeah. Yes. And the unit is so important. Yeah. You know, it's just, I mean that, but I'm also sorry that you went through that because that's so hard. Thank you. I've had so many friends who've been through that and it's just like, the process is just so grueling.

Thank you. That's really lovely of you to say. Yeah. Thank you. That's really lovely of you to say. And I really value these conversations because there are so many different ways to parent in this world. And it's always really wonderful hearing what someone else's take on it is and how you navigate it. And your kids are so different. I mean, I know I'm not raising them all the same. They have different temperaments, their natures. If you listen to your children, it's another thing, Shefali, like they're so, they're immediately their own person.

And my mom's always said to me, I got very sad when I was pregnant with Ryder. I was so young, but I was really big and I was really sad. And I, I don't, mom, I don't know why I'm sad. She's like, because the second he comes out, he doesn't belong to you anymore. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. So wise.

Yeah. She's a wise one. She's incredibly wise, my mom, but that was so like important for me to hear because spiritually, you know, we aren't, when you bring up your children, they are their own people. We, you know, they will fight against their nature, your, your nurture, their nature can fight against your nurture. And there's a way to respect their individual nurture, I mean, nature, and nurture it so that it's the out,

the way it's outputted is healthy. Yes. And strong. Yes. You know, you can have a really unruly kid, which I do. Which one? Bing. Yeah.

He's so fun. Yeah. He's not unruly. You're a middle child. But my middle, my middle is he just, he's fierce. He knows what he wants, and... But you know what? He needs to be active and doing things. And so you get that nature in a classroom,

and it's just like... But you get that nature in the world or behind a drum set or like building something, and it's just like, but you get that nature in the world or behind a drum set or like building something and it's magnificent. So it's like, and then, you know, all of my kids are like the opposite. They all have totally different natures. So you can't raise them all the same, just like we can't teach them all the same, you know?

Okay, I can talk to you forever, but we've got your final failure. you can't raise them all the same, just like we can't teach them all the same, you know. Okay, I can talk to you forever, but we've got your final failure. We've basically got two minutes, you've got to tell me why your final failure is business, which I'm shocked by as someone who loves phabletics. But it's not a failure. Right. So yeah. Right, but there have been failures. And I think business is very, again, like children. You know, if you, you know, it's like being a parent, it's like, it could go wrong. If you're not on it, and you know, you can really, you can, you can mess up your kids. And the same is with business. You can really mess up a business. And art, a little more subjective, you can kind of work your way around it, you can make excuses, you know?

But in business, you're either working or you're not. I don't see the failures as the failure, I see them as the lesson. But it's so interesting to walk through different, because I love being entrepreneur. I mean, I love new ideas. interesting to walk through different, because I love being entrepreneur. I mean, I love new ideas. I love creating new ideas. But as you see the operating aspects of business,

so challenging, so hard, you get all these people who think it's so easy, and they think there's some sort of formula, but every business has its own heartbeat. I've learned as much with the failures as I have the successes. What's the number one thing you've learned through a business mistake or failure? Trust your gut. I mean, trust your gut all the way. If you have a good sense and you know that it's kind of led you, you went against it

and you shouldn't have gone against it, then I think it's telling you something like always trust your instincts. I would say always know how to pivot. Like pivoting is so key to business. And don't be afraid to like challenge people who don't want to pivot if you if you're gut saying pivot. And like be okay walking away from something. It's really hard. It's really hard. And it feels like a massive failure. And you feel like you're letting so many people down. And you are. But if you're an elegant leader and you care, everybody who you work with is going to know and they're going to know

everything that you put into it. And when it's time to away, like give yourself permission to be like, it's time to walk away from this. It didn't work. And it doesn't mean that the next thing won't. It just means that you, you know, and then like, don't, I find, you know, I've met a lot of people in business with like both success and failure. And I would say always be weary of the ones who try to talk up their failures. Hmm.

Like, it's okay for it to just not have worked and for you to explain why you think it didn't work. That didn't work, we didn't have the right management, we weren't coming up at the right time, we had this opportunity, I didn't take that opportunity, I should take that opportunity. Like, actually learn from the mistake. You know, when you get into business with people

who are like, oh yeah, I did this, and what happened with that? Oh, well, this person came in and they really ruined the thing. Red flag, red flag. It's not someone else's fault. There's such a recurring theme here throughout our chat about taking accountability and being brave enough to be responsible for your own imperfections and flaws

and owning that. And Kate Hudson, I don't want to walk away from this interview. I could talk about it. I know this is so fun. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. You are going to answer a few listener failures, but I just want to say a personal thank you from me. That was such an amazing conversation. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day

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