How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Katherine Parkinson – ‘I’m Still Learning How to Be Me’

Starting point is 00:00:00 Do you know, my mum has always said to me, you're not afraid to fail, which is kind of, I was like, what do you mean? I don't know if I like that. I was literally walking around with my shoulders like, come on, tap me, tap me. I remember being in the hospital that night and hearing the, I think what I find upsetting. This episode of How to Fail is supported by Dove Whole Body Deodorant because feeling fresh all over gives me the confidence I need. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast that believes that all failure can end up teaching us something meaningful in the fullness of time. Before we get cracking on this episode, please do remember to like, subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single conversation.

Starting point is 00:00:51 I'm Jonathan Goldstein and on the new season of heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at him and said this isn't a joke. A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old. And a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago. How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again? Listen to heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts. Fabio Semantilly. Big hearts, big voice, big laugh.

Starting point is 00:01:26 A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche. He was like a wizard behind the chair. The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out. There was rampant speculation about everything. But every wild theory was wrong, because the truth was even more unbelievable. Well, is anyone hearing what I'm hearing?

Starting point is 00:01:50 And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing is a form of agony. From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, this is Cut Color Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on The Binge. search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, add free. Catherine Parkinson used to want to be an astronaut.

Starting point is 00:02:24 But when she was cast as Puck in her grammar school production of a Midsummer Night's Dream, age 13, her life took a different turn. After studying classics at Oxford University, Parkinson attended the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art before being cast as Jen Barber in the Channel 4th. comedy, the IT crowd, for which she won her first BAFTA. She went on to star on the TV series Doc Martin and Humans, as well as appearing in movies such as The Boat that Rocked, and the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society. On stage, she was nominated for an Olivier for Home, I'm Darling, and wrote a critically acclaimed play called Sitting in 2018,

Starting point is 00:03:05 based on her own experiences of sitting for a portrait painted by an aging artist. And as of last night, mere hours ago, I can officially say that Parkinson is a two-time BAFTA winner after scooping the Best Comedy Actress Award for her turn as the neurotic Rachel in the BBC comedy, Here We Go. But the role for which she has most recently become especially beloved is that of Lizzie Verica, the romantic novelist married to bullying TV presenter James in rivals on Disney Plus, the hit series adapted from the novels of Dame Ginny Cooper. The first season won an international Emmy and is a highly entertaining 80s romp

Starting point is 00:03:46 through the fictional county of Rottshire. The show is notable for its emphasis on the female gaze, especially when it comes to the sex scenes. I'm just a normal 47-year-old woman who's breastfed two girls, and that doesn't mean I'm not able to represent a sexual being, Parkinson said last year. For me, doing this job has been a glorious,

Starting point is 00:04:10 fairly belated celebration. Catherine Parkinson, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so delighted you're here and we're going to get onto Rivals the second season in a minute. But I just want to say, first of all,

Starting point is 00:04:24 congratulations. This is literally hours after you've won your BAFTA. Yeah, and a surprising win, I think, fair to say. I think everybody was surprised most of all me. I am still a bit drunk. And I realised the last time I saw you I was also drunk because it was at Jilly's Memorial.

Starting point is 00:04:42 I saw you across the church. Oh my gosh, Jilly's Memorial. Wasn't that the most beautiful day? It really was stunning. In Southwet Cathedral, the sun coming through those windows, the queen in attendance. Yeah. And then everyone stayed and champagne was served endlessly.

Starting point is 00:05:00 I don't think I've ever been stocious in a word. It's not a stochist. No, I made it up. Oh my gosh. I think it means drunk. I think I've heard my dad. I'd use that word for drunk. Your dad's Northern Irish, isn't he?

Starting point is 00:05:12 Yes. It's another, we've gone totally off on a tangent already. I grew up in Northern Ireland. I remember reading that. Yes. Didn't think of the accent. I was in Belfast every single school holiday. I used to love the ice lollies, hot shots and Mr. Frosties.

Starting point is 00:05:29 Do you remember those? I remember them very, very well. Gosh. Okay, let me get this back on track. But not before I've asked you all about rivals, because I've been lucky enough to see the first three episodes of the new season. And of course, like everyone else in the world, loved the first season. This one's even better.

Starting point is 00:05:46 It's so, so fantastic and so smart. And that's the thing that I often think people downplay, because it's vastly entertaining and it's funny and it's sexy, but it's actually very, very smart what it does as well. And I think your character really epitomises that. What drew you to Lizzie Verica in the first place? Well, I completely agree that I think it's such a smart, craftily written show. So just when you think people can kind of not dismiss it, but put it in the category of a lightweight sort of entertaining romp, you know, bonkbuster.

Starting point is 00:06:20 Rather like Jilly, the writing is actually far cleverer than you just can't sort of dismiss it. There are sort of really funny jokes. It's quite gently political, I think. And I think Laura Wade and Dominic Treadwell Collins, you know, if you know them, are just about the cleverest people in any room you're in. So I never had any doubt it was going to be a show with depth. And Laura and Dominic, as you say, but Laura particularly is so adept at writing about class as Dane Jilly was. And there's something in the second season as well where it really sort of unwraps all of that.

Starting point is 00:07:02 And I wondered how much that appealed to you as someone who grew up so. Burboton, Northern Irish Dad, and then ended up at Oxford. Do you think you've got a particular interest in class and observing it? How interesting you ask me that. I've never been asked that before. And sometimes I sort of feel like I have to be careful because it's such a sort of hot potato, isn't it? Because of course, I don't want to ever suggest that I'm from a lower class background than I am

Starting point is 00:07:33 because I'm absolutely middle class. But the jump to sort of have never met anybody from even private school to suddenly living with three wonderful, hilarious boys that all have been to eat him. And that is quite a big difference. Yeah. Grammar school and public school. So boarding school and grammar school. I mean, I hadn't even been away from home, really. So when I got to Oxford, I met these, you know, wonderful bohemian public school-educated girls who were very open about their sexuality.

Starting point is 00:08:05 had, you know, explored all sorts of different avenues. And it hadn't compromised their essential classiness, whereas I felt that there was, my classiness was absolutely dependent on me being quite chased. Yes. I felt like I couldn't get away with being, not get away with, but I couldn't be sexually active, particularly even, because I felt that I would quickly be seen as cheap. And I look back and I think that's quite, that's a shame.

Starting point is 00:08:39 And clearly it's something that I think has changed. I think that women are girls are, there was a lot of shame for me. I don't know if that's the Northern Irish thing. But it's certainly not something I felt was anything to do with my parents. It was something to do with how essentially different I felt in the company. was in at university and how I had kind of earned my place at the table by being quite, I was like a mascot sort of thing. But God forbid, I sleep with anyone. That makes complete sense. I feel awful saying it because I don't want to say it with any judgment about the company I was in

Starting point is 00:09:21 because they were some of the best people and the best times I had. I don't think you're judging them. I think you're analysing yourself. Yeah. This is how you perceived you might be judged rather than anyone making you feel like that. Yes. And just to bring it back to rivals again, you know, I love the character of Lizzie and I love her affair with Fred Fred. And Fred Fred is that, played by Danny Dyer, previously of this parish. It stands in that he, his character and his wife are the kind of Nouveau reach and sort of look down upon in so many ways. And yet here is this soul in Fred Fred that we gradually see unfurling. And we see this intimacy blooming between the two of you. And I just think it's. played so beautifully. And I'm not sure I have a question. I just love watching it. I love watching the two of you.

Starting point is 00:10:10 Yeah. Well, I was speaking to the magnificent Felicity Blunt who was saying, you know, this, that it's clever because in this series, I think the audience is almost invited to slightly judge Valerie ourselves and then shame on us at the end. And Valerie is Fred Fred's wife.

Starting point is 00:10:32 Yeah. And Felicity, I should say, is exec producer online. Yes. Yes. And I think it's, you know, in Jilly's books, those characters are sort of written with that sibilance, which I definitely had when I was growing up. So I did well to shake that. But I feel like there's a lot of compassion in the TV show for, you know, we're not, it's telling a truth of snobbery in this country that I wonder what the Americans make of it. I wonder what the Americans make of it. I wonder what the The equivalent is in America, but there is an awful lot of snobbery in this country. And I suppose what I'm saying is I did feel it at university. Final question on rivals for now. Is it as fun as it looks?

Starting point is 00:11:23 Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, because everyone I've met who is an actor on rivals seems awfully delightful. I don't think I've ever been in a company where everybody makes me laugh so much. And that is literally all I care about. That's all I've ever cared about. So Danny Dyer, as you know, is hilarious.

Starting point is 00:11:50 Then we've got Claire Rushbrook, David Tennant, all these people, Lisa McGillis, Emily Ateg. There isn't actually a person in that cast, Gary Lamont. that doesn't make me Alex Hassel. Bella, they're all funny. So I feel like it's I think that basically is why it's so fun. Okay.

Starting point is 00:12:16 I said it was my final question on rivals. I did lie because we started off talking about seeing each other at Dame Jiddy's Memorial and of course there's a tremendous sadness that must have come with filming this series because she died so on. unexpectedly and suddenly, how did you as a cast and a crew handle that? It was such a shock and I think it, yeah, I know that's, I know obviously she was the age she was,

Starting point is 00:12:50 but she, she was in such fine fetal, so it was very, it was very upsetting and oddly it sort of chimed slightly. as you'll see with things we were filming. So that sort of made it weirder as well. And yeah, she just wasn't the sort of person you expected to die. So I think it's still, you know, people like Dominic Treadwell Collins and Felicity Blunt are just were extremely close to her. So you want to sort of respect that because their grief is sort of, more personal, but she was very present, Julie,

Starting point is 00:13:37 and she had that rightly ability to make you feel very regarded when you're in her presence. So, yeah, she's very missed and I think they're all still a bit shocked. Yeah, I'm so sorry. This season is such a beautiful tribute to her, her spirit and her work. Yeah. Let's get onto your failures. Yes. This podcast is all about speaking the truth, honest, transparent storytelling and embracing our perceived failures to discover what we've learned from them. Every week, I'm lucky enough to speak with some of the most impressive and inspiring people from around the world. But while those conversations are always a joy, they do sometimes take me out of my comfort zone.

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Starting point is 00:15:23 with Dove Whole Body Deodorant, available at major retailers in store and online. Your first failure is a failure to be organized, Catherine Parkinson. So what do you mean by organized? For you, what would a perfectly curated and organized life look like? So I was worried about offering this up as a failure because I thought I'm failing to have interesting failures because this is such an boring failure. And also, you know, I should say in many ways, I am organized. I think my head is quite organized, although people say that I jump around. conversation and it's a nightmare. I haven't experienced that.

Starting point is 00:16:06 You seem very organized. You were here on time. Okay. That was incredibly eloquent. Yeah. I have been known for lateness in the past. That's a sort of, there's an optimism, I think, with this organisation. So I sort of think, oh, we'll be fine.

Starting point is 00:16:19 We'll be on time because there's a world where we could be. When I was a student, I would be like, okay, I'll stay up all night. I'll take some Pro Plus and I'll read three Euripides plays in the original ancient Greek. No, you're not going to do that. So, you know, I remember a headmistress saying at my school, you know, the key to life is organisation. And I thought, I'm screwed, you know, because I, when I was a child, I couldn't colour and keep in the line. It's like, I'd like, I cannot. I haven't sought out any kind of diagnosis, by the way, but there are just patterns of behaviour and very impulsive.

Starting point is 00:17:02 I change my mind all the time My agent has to be very patient With that So there's a room in our house That my husband calls the chaos room Which is my little room I feel like I know where everything is But the reason I feel it's a failure in my life

Starting point is 00:17:18 Is because I had a couple of times during exams In my A levels And then my mods at university That were kind of the worst times of my life And I could call it a meltdown, but a breakdown is probably a more, you know, a truer definition of it because it was pretty awful. And it was because I had not been organised. I was, you know, had all the

Starting point is 00:17:46 right things going on in terms of liking the work and all the rest of it. But I just, I don't know, I just didn't pull myself together and it was all a bit of a disaster. The reason I qualify it is because I ended up being fine and my finals were great and everything was fine. So it's a qualified failure but it was a failure emotionally because I lost it.

Starting point is 00:18:10 And when you say you lost it and it was dark, what did that look like? Well, I just... Honestly, it's almost like those periods of time are slightly blocked out. And, you know, I do remember, this is terrible, I do remember falling asleep in one of my exams

Starting point is 00:18:36 and waking up and just seeing I had a green bio and just, and they were, you know, they obviously I didn't pull off good marks in those mods but it was fine in the end. But I think I was, it's part and parcel of what we were talking about earlier. I was in student digs for the first time. I was in a student house.

Starting point is 00:18:57 I didn't have a lock on my door. I was such a bloody people-pleaser. So whenever any of these boys came in the door, I wanted to be funny and charming and ready. So I really just couldn't focus. I can remember instead of a normal lamp, I had a red light, so I couldn't really see the words on the page. I would go to tutorials and the tutor would say,

Starting point is 00:19:15 have you read the Xerox? And I didn't realize you meant a photocopier. I would be like, yes, I love Xerox. I was just such a fraud for that period of my life. But I think with hindsight, so I don't know if this ties into disorganisation, with hindsight, I was trying too hard to be this person to these new people that I had met. I'm blaming it on the Etonians. I was trying too hard to be everything to them.

Starting point is 00:19:40 Honestly, even Etonians blame it on Antonians. I think we're fine that. They were like the funniest best people that I'd met and I really wanted them to like me. And I knew they did and I wanted to keep that up. And so I didn't manage to have a split focus. When I was in my final year, I was living in college and an all-female college. with lovely girlfriends walking me around the grounds, like I was in a sort of sanatorium.

Starting point is 00:20:05 And I listened to the music I liked and, you know, sort of smoked in my room and really fell in love with modern philosophy, particularly and had a beautiful time in that final fourth year. But there have been, there were chaotic times where I, yeah, A-levels, I wasn't myself, you know, and I, I, yeah, it was a dark time. I'm sorry. I had a similar thing with my A-levels too. It was interesting.

Starting point is 00:20:42 And I wonder, this lack of organisation, the word that's coming up for me is a kind of fear. And I wonder if it's almost like you don't let yourself think, actually, I'm really great at this subject. I'm going to nail my exams. Yeah. Does that? That is very familiar to me. I think there's, I really used to want to do, well, I was listening to the amazing Chris Hoy saying that, you know, it's important to sort of concentrate on the task at hand.

Starting point is 00:21:16 I think sometimes in the past I was endgaming it and thinking, if I'm honest, I think I really wanted to go to Oxford and it. And it wasn't that the odds were stacked against me. I was academic, but I wasn't the most academic girl. I wanted to go to Oxford because I wanted to be an actress. And that's the only kind of, I know that seems mad, but that was the route I saw. I thought, if I go to Oxford, I can make that weird choice and it won't. Whereas if I go anywhere else, I'll have to do the, not to denigrate all the jobs that I, you know, but I didn't think they were going to suit me maybe as much as, um,

Starting point is 00:21:57 But you don't know. It's an instinct. And then it sort of seems it seems like a sort of naive kind of, you know, I also wanted to be an astronaut. I'm a very silly person. And your biggest disappointment is not being tapped up by MI5.

Starting point is 00:22:14 Me too, by the way. I'm so gutted. I was literally walking around with my shoulders. Like, come on, tap me, tap me. And you were you studying? I did Russian. I didn't do Russian at university, but I have done Russian in the past.

Starting point is 00:22:25 I'm like, sure. But I'm scaring. The thing is I am very indiscreet. I do want to tell people everything. I'm very indiscreet and I'm not sure I blend as much as. So yeah, I did actually do the MI5 exam. Did you? And, you know, I didn't, I'm not in MI5, Elizabeth.

Starting point is 00:22:43 Well, that's what you would say. But my brothers are, my brothers think I'm in MI5. Did they? No matter how many times I say, I am not in MI5. I'm quite, I'm an actress. Haven't you seen anything I'm in? If you are, though, will you tap me up? The two of us.

Starting point is 00:23:00 Why do you think I'm here? Okay, fine. But we do that. We do that after. After we're not recording. Okay. Anyway, right, so disappointment's not an astronaut. Allegedly not a spy, but that is what she would say.

Starting point is 00:23:15 The acting piece, so I do think that we are sometimes born with an instinct as to what we want to do. And clearly acting was your thing. How does your lack of organisation play into that? Is it actually helpful in certain ways? I think that with academia, you know, I kind of love that with academia, you're just a number and you do a paper. I remember going into exam schools when I was doing philosophy. And, you know, it's a joint school.

Starting point is 00:23:47 So you'd have people that were doing maths and you had people that were doing PPE and then you'd have the classicists and we'd all answer it differently. but it would all be kind of the right answer. But it's like an objective, you're not talking your way around anything. They don't know who you are or whatever. But I also really struggle with the slightly kind of black and white, you're a 70% person and you're an 82% person. And I kind of love with acting the subjectivity of it.

Starting point is 00:24:15 You know, like some people will love your performance and other people won't. And I find that a safer, I find that a safer space. to be. I think I, to be honest, with hindsight, and I really should have therapy, but with hindsight, I think that I, because therapy I think gets clarity on these things quicker and better, but I think with hindsight, I struggled with the pressure I put on myself, because I didn't have pressure from my parents. Once I got into grammar school, that was job done, you know. But I put a lot of pressure on myself to get really high marks rather than kind of loving the subject. And it was then that I lost my way. When I loved a subject when I was into the philosophy or had these brilliant

Starting point is 00:25:03 tutors and got excited about it, it was fine. But I think if you're endgaming it, just to get a kind of mark out of 10, that's when I wasn't happy. And it sounds therefore that acting has been really good for that because you don't end game it, you love the process. And if you win a BAFTA, brilliant. Everything's been easy since I sort of dared to become an actress. Like, because it's difficult because a lot of people want to be an actress. So I thought, am I just being unimaginative in my, you know, sort of notion I want to do this? But I, I have found everything much less stressful. And I haven't, you know, if I have sort of stress dreams, they're still about exams. they're not about forgetting my lines.

Starting point is 00:25:51 So I think that I felt like a fraud when I was, because, you know, not to bang on about my, but I do feel like I had a bit of a, because it was a long degree. And, you know, that life, I felt like I was pretending to be something I wasn't. This life, I don't. Whereas you hear a lot of people say,

Starting point is 00:26:09 I feel like I'm a fraud or whatever as an actor. I feel like, thank God I dared to do it because I feel, I feel like I'm doing the thing that I am. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And how ironic that you literally are pretending to be people you're not.

Starting point is 00:26:28 Yeah. And that is the purpose that enables you to live an authentic life. And obviously, working for MI5. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I'm very convinced by your cover story. When I started this podcast, I honestly felt like I was learning a brand new language overnight. scripts, artwork, scheduling, tech.

Starting point is 00:26:52 Suddenly, I was the entire team and it was kind of overwhelming. There were so many moments I wished I had a proper business partner to help me figure it all out. That's why I love Shopify. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and it gives you everything you need in one place. You can build a beautiful online store in minutes with hundreds of ready to use templates. Their AI tools help you write product description. and even polish your photography, which is a lifesaver when you're spinning 100 plates. And you can manage everything, inventory, payments, analytics, without juggling 10 different tabs.

Starting point is 00:27:29 Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing, sign up for your £1 per month trial today at Shopify.com.uk slash fail. That's Shopify.com.uk slash fail. Let's get on to your second failure because I'm aware, I want to give this the time and the acknowledgement that it deserves. And I'm very grateful to you for talking about it. I think it's probably the first time that you have really spoken about it. And so I want to acknowledge that and say, I'm sorry for what you went through.

Starting point is 00:28:03 And if at any point you want us to stop, we totally can. I'm also so aware that you haven't had therapy, which I find completely fascinating in and of itself. Because so many people who come on this podcast have. Yeah. And I'm really intrigued given what happened. So your second failure is, how have you put it, failure to acknowledge trauma. And there's a specific incident, isn't there?

Starting point is 00:28:26 We were in a town out of London. And I had last minute disorganised booked my digs for, I think it was 12 quid an hour. It was the cheapest digs I could find because I had this idea. You know, I wanted to prove I could be financially viable as an actress because I I had to be and I didn't know then whether it was going to work because I hadn't had any tele jobs

Starting point is 00:28:50 and I've, you know, so I wanted to save some money from this theatre job, which was optimistic of me. Booked cheapest digs I could find was walking home one night with a colleague from the theatre and a guy who had previous form

Starting point is 00:29:05 of doing this got into a bit of a disagreement with this colleague of mine and I said leave her alone and he knocked me out cold and broke my nose and everything else and but he was he was I think immediately arrested or certainly went to you know went to prison for ABH and all the rest of it anyway the reason I so I was back on stage next week I remember being in the hospital that night and hearing the I think what I find upsetting I think I think I find upsetting I think I

Starting point is 00:29:44 I think what I find upsetting about it most is that I remember hearing the... Oh, God, sorry. No, don't apologise at all. I do remember hearing the nurse in the hospital say, oh, she's a nice girl, you know, as well, she's a nice girl. And the sense of shame I felt that I'd... There was a sense, I remember somebody saying to me, you know, what were you doing to get... There was a sense that I had brought it on myself. And it made me think of, you know, at the time I was still hanging around with my university friends.

Starting point is 00:30:24 And they were saying, Parky, you walk from the station, we're going to go and pick up so and so and so. You know, and I did sort of, there was a sense that I was, I did sort of think that I felt like I was a sort of cheaper, cheaper commodity. You know, I was just as vulnerable, you know. Yeah. So I think it's good with hindsight to. acknowledge it and acknowledge the legacy of something like that because what I have found is that I'm really neurotic when it comes to my daughters about walking anywhere on their own and you know I was chatting to somebody at the school gate who said um you know sometimes it's things that have happened to us so has anything happened to you I was like no no no and then you and then you think

Starting point is 00:31:08 god yes it has I just sort of have this kind of I think my generation um generation, I think there was a sense of just getting on with it. And I think that I want to be able to, I mean, my mother's generation, the things that they have tolerated and put up with. And I think there's a lot to be said for getting on with things. But I also think, although I haven't had therapy, the wisdom of therapy, I think, has bled into our culture in a really, a way I find quite helpful. I watched in lockdown Michaela Cole's show and I found that really because it's about confronting your...

Starting point is 00:31:53 I may destroy you, isn't it? It's extraordinary. Yeah, and I think that helped me actually and I sort of think I need to acknowledge that I did have quite a serious assault that had repercussions that are basically I'm not going to be cross with myself for being a really neurotic man. Oh my goodness.

Starting point is 00:32:18 Thank you so much for talking about that. And I'm so sorry. It's horrendous. There's one thing that I absolutely have to say to you, which is you have no cause to feel any degree of shame. You did nothing wrong. That is all on the perpetrator's shoulders. And I know that at some level you know that,

Starting point is 00:32:40 but there's probably another level which doesn't, which hasn't taken it in. And I want you to know that beyond doubt that you survived something so appalling, so out of the blue, so violent, so shocking, that it must have required such recalibration of how you felt about the world around you and its relative safety. It was a huge thing to go through. And you sort of sped past the fact that he went to jail and you were in hospital. That's horrendous. But I think you're so right. Our generation, it's a very specific generation.

Starting point is 00:33:20 We grew up analogue, we transitioned to digital. We were carrying a lot of sort of shame. Yeah, shame. Our mothers fought an amazing battle, but there was still a sort of legacy of shame as a young woman. And we were given lots of conflicting messages. And I remember at that time, there were a lot of news stories about women

Starting point is 00:33:41 who quote unquote brought it on themselves, or wore the wrong thing. And I'm so happy that we are unpacking that as a culture, but you were a product of that. And I also don't want you to beat yourself up about internalising it. But I want to just absolve you of any remnant of that. Thank you. And that is so true.

Starting point is 00:33:59 There were a lot of stories back then about that. And I think I probably didn't present as, you know, I wore liquid eyeliner and short skirts and shamefully smoked and all the rest of it. but I know how vulnerable I was. And I suppose it did just because I, you know, it ties into my disorganisation as well because I've got a terrible sense of direction. So part of it was because I didn't know how to get back. But anyway, I just think that I'm giving myself in,

Starting point is 00:34:36 now I'm 48, just a bit more licence to realise, that your experience informs who you are. And like you say, your recalibration in a world where I used to just feel so confident and sure, unfortunately, a literal smack in the face makes you, it changes you. So I think it's... But, you know, I would also say,

Starting point is 00:35:06 I remember thinking I, in the sort of 48 hours after that, I experienced more kindness from... But, you know, I had a terribly messed up face for a while and I did feel a judgment walking around. You know, I carried on, I put an eye patch on and was on stage in a different city the next week. There was also an expectation back then. There was no counselling.

Starting point is 00:35:31 There was no sense that the theatre, you know, might have been... You know, they weren't responsible. Of course they weren't. But there was no real... pastoral care was it was a bit embarrassing I think for people to see and that I felt a judgment with this messed up face that I you know from people that didn't know me that I was a hard person that lived a hard life and that couldn't have been further from the truth so I think just you know I mean just talking about it is good actually I'm very honoured that you have and

Starting point is 00:36:07 you've mentioned your self-stated neurosis when it comes to being the mother of your daughters. How do you feel in the world around you? Did you have a period of extreme sort of vulnerability and not trusting the surroundings? I mean, I didn't actually stop. You can't stop, can you? I've always, you know, traveled a lot and been on my own and, you know, being a theatre actress, been travelling late at night. So none of that stopped. I suppose I was a little bit more, I am more, I have been more anxious in situations since I've gone straight to a very anxious place, which when I wouldn't have done that previously. But I am aware that I am, as my children are getting older,

Starting point is 00:36:58 I am not, I don't seem to be moving on to the stage I'm supposed to be doing. Right. You know, when I was 10, I was getting three buses or whatever to the school. I don't seem to be. So, you know, and when I say I haven't had therapy, it doesn't mean I'm not going to. I just haven't yet. So maybe I, maybe that's the sort of thing. When you can see it's manifesting in a way that probably is damaging to people you love,

Starting point is 00:37:24 then you think maybe I need to do something to sort of, yeah. I offer this not because there's any equivalence, because what you went through was so extreme. I was mugged on the street in my 20s by four young men and one of them like hit me around the face, but it wasn't actually painful and it didn't require anything approaching hospitalisation. Because you're doing what I do.

Starting point is 00:37:46 No, but I don't want you to... But I... That sense of vulnerability in neurosis and I don't have children, but I'm very neurotic about my cat. So I do sometimes think, gosh, in a way, it's quite lucky that I don't have children because I'm not sure I could cope with the level of anxiety about sending them out into the world.

Starting point is 00:38:05 I mean, it's not an irrational thing. I totally get it. And I remember for weeks after that mugging, when I would walk to do it. It happened on my streets. And when I walked to the tube each morning, I would have my bunch of keys. Do you remember we used to be taught that?

Starting point is 00:38:18 Like, you can use your keys as a weapon. I mean, as if. And I temporarily took up smoking because I was like, if I smoking a lit cigarette, then I can just stab it in their eye. It's so awful that, we are made to feel that that is how we need to show up in the world because stuff like this happens.

Starting point is 00:38:38 Yeah, and I think even the people, you know, even speaking to my husband not that long ago, you know, when awful things happen in the media as they have done in recent years, but things that I can't, I think a lot of us can't stop thinking about, you know. And I really, it is amazing subjective experience because you can be so close to somebody like I am with my husband, but I still have to say to him, no, no, no, no, darling, this is what most women are thinking this. when they walk home. Sorry if you didn't assume that. No, no, no, we're all like looking behind us and getting our keys out, you know, in London or otherwise. And yeah, I think that's, I think a lot

Starting point is 00:39:16 about things that have happened in recent years. So I don't know, I don't know, it's neurosis, but maybe like you said, it's based on experience and the world. So I don't know whether I'm just going to carry on not letting them do anything. Yeah, I think that's fine. I'm totally fine. It's very Northern Irish. Let's just bury the trauma. It is very Northern Irish.

Starting point is 00:39:43 Yes. But we will march every summer. I had almost exactly the same conversation with my husband. Right, yeah. And it was fascinating to me for those reasons. He's such an amazing man. He's such an extraordinary feminist. But he was like, oh my God.

Starting point is 00:40:01 that's what women think all the time or if they're getting a taxi on their own and the driver seems a bit off or a bit aggressive. Oh, that's what you're thinking. I was like, yes. Yeah. It's like that Nagel essay, one of the few things I remember from my degree that I seem to be talking about a lot with you today. There was an essay of what's it like to be a bat and how it's not what's it like to be a bat, but what's it like for a bat to be a bat. And I always think, you know, you can empathise, but you don't know until you're actually this, that person with that person's vulnerabilities and experiences. Yes.

Starting point is 00:40:37 Yeah. So, yeah, I think, I think it's good. A failure to acknowledge trauma and I've kind of unpicked it. I've acknowledged it with you today. So I've turned a failure into a non-failia. Thank you for choosing to talk about it. And can I ask why you chose to talk about it? It's a privilege really to acknowledge trauma.

Starting point is 00:41:00 And I think basically by acknowledging what happened to me, I'm giving myself permission to carry on being a really controlling mother. Okay, fine. But you're also modelling for your daughters not to carry the shame. And I'm actually quite struck by the fact that there was no anger in your telling of that episode in your life. there was no anger that I could discern directed at the perpetrator. And again, that's so interesting because in one way it's enlightened and lovely. And in another way, there's so much fuel and power that comes from anger.

Starting point is 00:41:39 And so many men, because patriarchy, have been taught that anger is their birthright, but we're much less used to expressing it. I remember being shocked at how little instinct I had to fight back, actually. And that was a bit of a shock. I was like, oh, okay. I'm, you know, hypothetically, with this sort of youthful swagger, I would think, you know, if that ever happened to me, I'd, you know, give as good as I got or whatever. And, no, not an instinct in me to, and that was sort of not disappointing, but quite kind of a bit of a realisation of the, you know, the physical difference that we're, you know, that we have to acknowledge and know. Yeah.

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Starting point is 00:43:50 Yeah, yeah. My mum loves the sound of the oboe, but when I was younger, I had really protruding front teeth. I mean, I had to have the Victorian head brace, the leather head brace, Leather. They wanted me to wear it at school. It was like no way.

Starting point is 00:44:06 But I wore it at night. It was like a sort of harness. Like a gimp. Like a gimp mask. I wore a gimp mask. At night only. It was like a gimp mask. And the railway tracks and the plate and everything else.

Starting point is 00:44:21 Now, it was fine. Perfect small. NHS orthodontists. Thank you very much. Dr. I'm not doctor, Mr. Neville Upson of Kingston. Anyway, so I had a really sticky out.

Starting point is 00:44:33 and why this didn't occur to my mum as a potential problem in learning the oboe where you have to put your lips over when to get the read. So I used to go to these lessons and I would spend a whole hour with the really lovely teacher just saying we just can't even get you in the right mouth position with the read. Anyway, I did. I could play Joan, you know, the Miss Marple theme tune, the Joan Hickson one. I played that once in the music thing at school and really thought nailed it and got a very low mark. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think it was a success. But I remember loving going to the lessons because I'm lucky to have a very, very close relationship with my mum.

Starting point is 00:45:24 and we used to go to a chocolate shop that made like those truffle, white truffle chocolates with a sort of mockery inside, and it was sort of quality time with my mum. So I didn't really let on how little progress I was making because I enjoyed that time so much. But yeah, I don't play the abo very well. Do you think you learned anything by being bad at it? Or not as good as you hoped. Do you know, my mum has always said to me, you're not afraid to fail, which is kind of, I was like, what do you mean? I don't know if I like that, but I feel like it's for the purposes of this podcast, it's like, I thought, yeah, no, I don't mind not being.

Starting point is 00:46:10 Once I got out of the academic world, I don't mind being bad at things. Do you actually find that there's a sort of creativity in being bad? or appearing comic and stupid. Not that I'm saying that, but there's a clownishness. I think that you have to be prepared to fail as an actor. And the ones that aren't going to necessarily do different performances are maybe sometimes ones that are a bit too controlling, that are kind of, I mean, I think it's probably useful to watch a monitor sometimes,

Starting point is 00:46:49 but you don't want to be too aware. You want to just sort of be free. And that's the beauty of it. And that's when you're in flow with it. Like when you're, why I love working with Danny so much is, you know, he is very instinctive and just turns up and is going to lock on with you and be in flow. And that's when you feel like you're living this different life briefly. Like it actually feels like you're living somebody else's life with somebody else's life, you know.

Starting point is 00:47:17 And I think you can only do that if you're not afraid to fail. Yes. Do you think you're happy? I do think I'm happy. That's a question I actually don't think I've ever been asked. I know I'm happy actually, yeah. But I think it's taken, there's been, I think I have, I think I am happy of a happy disposition. But I do think that it's taken to this, it's taken.

Starting point is 00:47:47 I think getting to this age has brought. an acceptance of myself, which you hear a lot of people say, but I think, you know, I would dare to say I like who I am now, which I don't think I'd have said before. Well, I love hearing that, and I think it's the perfect place to end, really. Does Lizzie get her happiness, do we know, in rivals? What can you tell us? Does Lizzie get her happy ending?

Starting point is 00:48:24 Yes, I mean... I mean... I mean... It's complicated. Okay, okay. We'll leave it at that. But Catherine Parkinson, you are such a wonderful talent on screen and on stage. And it has been a real delight to discover the warmth and the loveliness in person.

Starting point is 00:48:44 Thank you so much for coming on how to tell you. I have loved talking to you. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by... Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,

Starting point is 00:49:04 or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day in Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Katherine Parkinson – ‘I’m Still Learning How to Be Me’

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