How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Lashana Lynch - ‘I didn’t know when I was auditioning that I was going to be 007’

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

Lashana Lynch has had a pretty incredible few years: she was the first ever Black female agent with a licence to kill in the James Bond franchise, played a ferocious warrior (and performed her own stunts) in The Woman King, became part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and portrayed Mrs Honey in the movie adaptation of Matilda. Now she’s back in a Sky adaptation of The Day of the Jackal, co-starring Eddie Redmayne. It’s a long way from her working-class upbringing in Hammersmith, West London - a childhood she credits with teaching her resilience and grit…as well as the importance of dressing well. I loved chatting to Lashana - she’s so smart and strong and interesting. We discuss grief, racism, people-pleasing and her failure to stop procrastinating about procrastination. The Day of the Jackal premieres on Sky and NOW on Thursday 7th November 2024. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Tickell and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Between 1979 and 1989, a dozen people from Dallas, Texas died mysteriously. Why do you think it was so difficult to tie Terry to these deaths? Because there's no smoking gun. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Scary Terry. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that firmly believes in failing better. As Truman Capote said, failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. Before we get to our guest, I'd love to quickly remind you about our special subscriber bonus

podcast, Failing With Friends. This is where my guest kindly stays in the studio a few minutes more and helps me to answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Because we had a bona fide A-lister today, Lashana Lynch, who had lots of other things to get onto, I get the extra special opportunity to do it on my own. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look out for my call-outs once a month on Instagram for short form questions. Thank you so much. From an early age, Lashana Lynch's parents were convinced that she'd either end up doing something sporty or something creative. As it turned out, she's found a way to combine the two. Lynch is one of our stellar rising screen stars and often performs her own stunts. Her role as Maria Rambeau in the Marvel Cinematic

Universe saw her learning how to fly a plane. In The Woman King, she spent five hours a day in the gym to look convincing while wielding a machete. In the Bond movie No Time to Die, she was taught how to arm, disarm and fire a gun when she played the only woman in the film franchise ever to have been given a license to kill. Lynch sang and danced as Mrs. Honey in the movie adaptation of Matilda and earlier this year took on the role of Rita Marley in the Bob Marley biopic One Love. Now she returns to our screens as MI6 agent Bianca, starring opposite Eddie Redmayne in the Sky TV series of The Day of the Jackal, adapted from the eponymous novel by Frederick Forsythe. It is her strength that comes through

in all her roles, not just physical but emotional too. She was born in West London, raised by a social worker father and a housing manager mother who took cleaning jobs for extra money. Lynch's grandparents came to the UK from Jamaica as part of the Windrush generation, a heritage she mentioned in a moving speech when she accepted the 2022 rising star BAFTA. I'm grateful, she said that night, for a working class foundation that has taught me everything I needed to know about failure, about no's, about what no's mean, and how to celebrate your yeses. Lashana Lynch, welcome to How to Fail.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for that intro. Oh my gosh, I was like, hmm, I'm memory lane. Good. It was so nice. You could not be a more perfect guest. When I watched that speech that you gave, accepting that rising star award, I was like, yes, exactly that. It's about knowing how to cope with failure, knowing how to be resilient enough to bounce back from your nose. Tell me more about your working class upbringing and why that gave you that ability? I mean, resilience is the first word that comes to mind when it comes to just mustering

up strength, confidence, willpower in order to do anything, even to get out of bed and to decide that I want to be great today or I want to inspire somebody to be great today. My background has informed how I look upon my future, the kind of legacy that I want to leave in the world, and not doing that with a weight, actually seeing that as a privilege. And I do believe that some people have heard me say that before and they go, gosh, isn't it not a lot to want to leave something big in the world? Is that not a big weight on your shoulders? But I see it as really, like I'd said in my BAFTA speech, a real opportunity to honor those before me, and especially as closely as my parents or my grandparents who sacrificed

way more than I've sacrificed in my life in order for me to have a good life. And I think that the more that people, especially from my background, hear that, they're able to, I don't know, just have an I can about their day to day life. Because it's not about the big thing that you're going for every day. It's about the increments of your life that are going to help create your story essentially. Well, I think we're done here. That was the most amazing answer. Cool. Thank you so much.

We covered every point. Thank you. No here. That was the most amazing answer. Thank you so much. We covered every point. Thank you. That was so good. It strikes me reading about you that there's a difference between money and worth in that you were clearly raised and embody such a sense of self-worth that is so impressive and calming to be around. And that's different from having had loads of money because your parents clearly worked very hard. That's why I thought it was important to mention in the introduction what they did for a living and how your mother worked around her day job to give you the things that you needed. Can you talk to me a bit about that, a bit about the importance of being raised with a sense of worth?

It's priceless. I don't know where it comes from. I really wish that there was, like, a, I don't know, a family history book whereby, like, I get to learn about how that came into my line, especially my female line, on both sides of my family, because I feel like everyone I come across in my family are just... they just have that thing. And it's not that they have it at the tip of their fingers all the time, they really have to dig for

it sometimes, as do I. But there's just a knowing and a capability that I've been able to draw upon for me personally and for me in my career off the back of the, you can do this. There's no question. It's not a question of if, it's a when and how, and it's a your choice. And once you get to a young age that you have a choice to do something, which not all children get to learn early, I appreciate. You just, you just firm in your core. And I'm really grateful I had that because it's informed a lot of my career decisions, it's informed a lot of my yeses and noses, and it's informed, like you mentioned, how you digest the noses. Because they can be so painful sometimes, and they can be you digest the nose because they can be so painful sometimes and they can be really hard hitting when you're in a good place. And my parents, especially with the jobs that they

had, they're very community based. They're very like, you know, my dad dealt with a lot of teenagers from different backgrounds. My mom dealt with a lot of elderly people from different backgrounds. And they were all within our community and all taught them something. And they were both able to come home and impart their experiences without putting them on us as children, which, imagine, as a parent is a hard thing to do as well. And a hard thing to watch your child digest as time goes on, because it's the real,

real, like they didn't sugarcoat anything. They were like, this is what it is. But at the same time, by the way, my parents have like big taste. There was, we shopped at Peter Jones and John Lewis and Waitrose and like we had like everything we could imagine because they're like, thinkers and doers, which let me know that there's nothing that's impossible. I could wear Russell and Bromley shoes to high school and have everyone be like, wow, why are you not wearing like, worse shoes because you're working class and like, you don't have that much money. I'm like, no, but we're smart. We know how to utilize our resources, how to use our brains and how to unfortunately appear as though things are better than they

are, which down the line will give you hopefully an opportunity to remember that the things that are not good or not as they should be to deal with them in-house also. Right, yes. Yes, the strength of presentation. And I think one of the things that I always notice in your performances is you're thrown into what most people would find incredibly intimidating situations. James Bond franchise, like,

facing a racist backlash because of your casting, becoming the only woman in that franchise to have a double-O number. But I remember in 2015 seeing you on stage in Chichester in Educating Rita. Yeah. And you were incredible. And it was the first night and Lenny Henry dried up on stage, he forgot his lines. Yeah. And the thing that struck me, I still remember it so vividly, you were brilliant. You were so calm, stayed in character, and made it seem like it was part of the scene.

Now, to have that poise at that age, it sounds like that's where it comes from, that idea of presentation and keeping your cool under pressure. Yes. Gosh, I'm so happy that you saw that. That was one of my favorite plays. I loved it growing up and I was so grateful to have played in that. And like it did allow me to remember Grace, that that just, it happens. It really does just happen to the best of us at the worst of times. And it was press day and it was high stakes. I have two slices of training to fall back on.

My childhood training and my upbringing, and my drama school training, which taught me to just carry on. Always carry on. Never let on that anything's wrong, because the audience may actually go with you if you continue this stream of what we're doing, what's happening, I don't know where I'm at. Let's leave the stage because we need to find some help. But that was actually really like a turning point for me in my career and my life to know that when you see your training in action and then you look back on it, you think, oh,

actually the thing that I've always wanted to do, be strong enough and confident enough to just be, it worked. It really worked. Fascinating. And I also wonder if that's why you're so good at playing special agents. Because not only did you play one in the James Bond movie, but you're now playing one in The Day of the Jackal, an MI6 agent called Bianca. And she's such an interesting character because obviously she's incredibly good at her job, but it doesn't come without a cost or without a sense of slight, would it be fair to say,

self-betrayal or vulnerability that she's kind of confused about why she's doing what she's doing sometimes whilst being very good at it. Is that what drew you to the role? Like you said, I've been a member of MISix before and that was wonderful and changed my life in different ways. When I read this script, I thought, oh, this is a real nice opportunity to dive back into that world and explore how women of that, you know,

of that world, of that thinking, of that mind and experience, come to be there and how they handle the rest of life whilst being this, quote unquote, superhero. Everyone sees them as being like, oh, they're very aloof and they travel a lot and they've got so much responsibility and are highly skilled. But that doesn't come without questioning oneself, knowing how to

use your vulnerability, balancing family and having a household, and also remembering who you are in your core. So I think that playing someone like her, who has so much to contend with, there's so many complications in her life and in her mental state is really, you see, it's really interesting. But a really good character study, I rewatched it the other day and I was like, this is every woman I know in the workplace. Something's gone wrong or they get a text or they get a phone call or their boss has said something that they don't want or didn't get that promotion and then they've had to kind of find something in themselves to anchor them in who they are

and it's just so hard and we never get to like really discuss it on screen. So I'm really glad that Bianca exists in that world in a high powered,, very tense and boiling environment whereby she can do both. And we'll probably return to some of those themes later because it kind of plays into one of your failures. But before we get into your failures, I've got one more question. What is the favorite stunt or physical thing that you have ever learned through a role to do?

It's great. It's just, it was so hard. In The Woman King, I didn't my own stunts entirely for the first time, maybe the last time ever because it was so hard. I had to run and jump like and bear hug a man in the air. And as he turned to drop on the floor I had to stay on him, turn around, land on my back, kind of roll past my back and land on my feet. Don't know if that makes sense. I'm, it does make sense but that is some serious acrobatics. It's insane. I'm not an acrobat nor am I I a gymnast or, I mean, I've, I started ballets, finished very early, like I've played sports, didn't finish them all. I don't have the full

equipment to have known how to do that, but I'm impressed that someone thought I could do that. And that I eventually did do it because it goes back to the knowing that I can do something that allows me to even agree to do it. It's strange and it was terrifying at the beginning but once I saw that I was safe and secure and that people have my best interests at heart it just became such an empowering thing to do. That's such an amazing metaphor for how I see failure, which is, I mean, it's not quite as challenging as jumping and meeting a man in a bear hug midair and then flipping over and landing on your feet. But it's that sense of once you've lived through something that was really challenging at the time, it gives you the strength and the self-confidence

to look back and think, well, I withstood that, so I can probably withstand the next thing. And I think that that's such an empowering realization. Yeah, it's forced me to be kind to myself when that doesn't happen, because I know that that is something that can come because we're capable of anything as human beings. But if that isn't a part of who I am or if I don't achieve that, if I fail at

that sometimes, then that's okay. Because I have had a string of muscle memories where that does happen. And then suddenly it doesn't. And it's jarring because I'm like, that's not what I do anymore. This is my routine. I start this, I go through this process and this happens. So yeah, the art of being kind to yourself whilst finding those things that eventually become part of your character is a slow lesson. And you're so right. There's a difference between doing your best

and always achieving the best. Actually, it's the doing that's the important bit, but it's sometimes hard to remember. We always appear to be something that we're not because we want to be more confident and seem like we have it together and just we have our outside of the house face and then we have the inside of the house face where we're like, what is going on? Just a mess of erosives. Yeah, basically.

But like, there's so many people who, if you actually allowed yourself to be like, I'm struggling here, are you feeling that too? They'd be like, God, yeah, me too. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I can exhale now and actually talk about it. So yeah, the art of talking as well is something that I've, talking and sharing is something that I've learned

to utilize over the years. Let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is about your Nan's bangle. I've never had a failure like this before and it's so sad because it's so obviously a loss. Yeah. Go ahead and tell us the story. On the night of the London premiere for No Time to Die, which because of the pandemic

and everything that was happening in the world, that premiere had been pushed by, it felt like two years. Yeah, I remember. We were desperate for the Bond film. Yeah. Yeah. So it eventually come and I had all my friends and family and was so excited. I had a bangle of my nans who passed away when I was 14. I was 34 at the time, went literally 34 when this premiere took place.

So I'd been wearing that bangle for 20 years. Straight. Like even in school, I'd take it off for some sports and then put it back on again. Something in me told me to take it off for some sports and then put it back on again. Something in me told me to take it off. Yeah, I just took it off and put it by some jewelry that my stylist had set aside and went to the premiere, had a great time,

and then towards the end of the night, I was like, where's my bangle? Just had a pull on my gut. I was like, something's happening with my bangle. Let me just check where it is. My makeup artist was coming in to the room to prep for me coming back, to get ready for another thing. I asked him to look and he was like,

can't see it anywhere. I'm going to keep looking until you get back. And I came back and saw his face and I was like, seen it? And he was like, it's not, it's not anywhere. Let's look together. And we literally turned the room upside down and it was not there. And I spent the rest of the evening going, well, it's going to, it's going to come back because it's my man's bangle. I don't live without that. It's been 20 years and it never came back. And it has been one of the like most painful things to experience having lost this person and then have having this one thing that keeps you, it's almost like a tick when you

feel the thing, a ring or something, you feel so connected to that person because their energy is in this object and now it's just not here. It was just a strange, sad experience. I'm so sorry, I can feel the sadness. And there are so many things I want to say, but first of all, I want to ask about your nan, because I'd love to know more about what she was like and how important she was to you growing up. Yeah, highly. She was my second mum, really. I spent a lot of time there. She kind of split,

part raised me with my parents and then her. And just being filled with a different age of wisdom. She was like traditional Jamaican, really funny but serious, came to England, you know, at a young age with her children, bought a townhouse in Shepherd's Bush, had a business. That's one of the examples of it is possible because my nan had three, four stories in her house and we didn't come from money. A lot of the things you see of me today, I believe is because of how she part raised me. What was her name? Gertrude.

What a great name. I know. Gertie. Gertie. So chic. Good. I'm glad you think that. There's such a sense of spiritual closeness and guidance here that I'm getting from Gertrude and your relationship with her. And I wonder if you have probably thought this, that bangle was there for the journey to where you were always destined to be, which is on the red carpet at James Bond film. And then maybe she felt like

I've done this bit and she doesn't need me in the same way anymore. It's so interesting that you say that because one of my best friends said exactly that when I was going through that grieving process. And I didn't believe it until maybe a couple months down the line when I could finally talk about it without crying. It's true. I feel like there was something that had crapped open at that time, that premiere or that film or that part of my life or there was something that was being shed. You don't need to hold on to all of these things from the past, namely things that come with me, because one, I'm here all the time. She genuinely is, but also this is what I feel like the message was,

you've learned so much about who you are and who you need to be now that you don't need the safety net, but you don't need to feel jolted when you don't sense the security net is there. Beautiful. Just before we move on to your next failure, looking back now on No Time to Die, because I imagine it was frenetic and surreal to go through and then there's the delay of the pandemic and that's a different level of stress. How do you feel about it now, that experience? Definitely proud. Sometimes I see clips and like pictures and things and I'm like, gosh, that really happened. You know, these films began when my nan was around and my dad took me to the cinema a couple of times when I was

a child to watch some of the early Bond movies and just the character alone, which I didn't know when I was auditioning that Nomi was going to be 007, by the way. Didn't you? No, no, no, no, no. How cool, when did you find out? When you got find out? When you got the script? Well, kind of, yeah.

Yeah. It was still early on, but it wasn't upon getting the part. So it was, yeah, I look at it as this kind of moment with all of these things that helped me push past a part of myself in order to step into these massive shoes that actually ended up just being shoes. Yes, they just were your shoes. They're just my shoes now. Yeah.

Or sandals or heels or whatever you want that. I love that. Yeah. Between 1979 and 1989, a dozen people from Dallas, Texas died mysteriously. Why do you think it was so difficult to tie Terry to these deaths? Because there's no smoking gun. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Scary Terry. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. So many of you have big dreams, problems to solve, fears to conquer, and cool stuff you want to learn.

We're here to listen. We'll connect you with remarkable people from all over the world who are experts in their fields. The first season of the Barbie podcast is available now. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Let's come on to your next failure. wherever you get your podcast. Let's come on to your next failure. I'm actually going to reverse the order in which you gave them to me. I'm sorry, but because I want to give this one a fair chunk of time.

Yeah. Your second failure is people pleasing and not wanting to be the odd one out. As you put it, that has led to a fear of making a mistake or being judged for straying outside of those parameters. I think so many people will relate to this. When did you first become aware of being a people pleaser? Between early teens and late teens.

And it sounds like a long time, but actually that's... Secondary school always feels long, but it's actually not. It's like, it's just a few years and it feels like ten. Yeah. You feel like you're there forever. Totally. And I realized that whenever groups of people, friends or otherwise, were making decisions,

I felt like I had to be a part of that decision. I couldn't be like, oh, actually, no, I don't think it should be pink. I think it should be yellow. Because I would fear that people would be like, yellow? Why would you do that? And then I'd have to stand up for myself and stand by my decision and it would have to be the right decision if that's what I'm choosing. And also I'd be standing alone. And that's scary to just be here kind of on an island supporting yourself. That didn't make any sense to me. It also like in your teens, there's a pretense that you develop that means that you don't fully tell the truth.

You kind of go around things to make things sound palatable and easy and comfortable for others. And I never want to make people uncomfortable. I always want people to have a lovely experience with me and be like, oh, that was a nice time had. But when and if that doesn't happen, I feel like I'm responsible for the person leaving in a different state that is not positive. Yeah, straying outside of those parameters is just really, it's always been really uncomfortable. And how much of that do you think is about a culture that made you feel either too much or not enough? I suppose what I'm in elegantly asking is whether at that time in your life, race had a part to play, because I remember reading about a ballet teacher who said something

about your posture and that, is there an element there of you, teenage you feeling like you have to overcompensate for already being what other people are making you feel is different? I think that as a working class, a black or a melanated child in the UK, you're always gonna feel like, it doesn't happen very early on, it did for me, because I started ballet at like seven, eight. You're always going to feel like the other is what

you're responsible for, even though it's something that just came with you. It's never outwardly celebrated. That was so well put. Sorry, I just had to say that. Yeah, that was so good. Carry on. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not an easy responsibility if you have not been taught how to handle that. If you're the first generation in this country and your parents had a different level of racism

in their time, yours is what? 10, 15, hopefully, around that time, hopefully not two years into your life. You're feeling the different, you're feeling the next generation's interpretation of what their racism is. Even your parents can't quite teach you how you should handle that racism because racism changes like every day. The traumas land in different ways. And I think as a child, it wasn't just race, but I do look back on that story of the ballet teacher

and think, oh, I really wish that was the story, but it was real life. What does she do exactly? It's all about posture and being upright. And I've always had good posture and ballet like corrected that in a new way also. In order to have good posture, you have to tuck in your bum. And I noticed that she wasn't telling the other children who were young white girls to tuck in their bottoms in that way.

And she just kept going on at me about not doing it right and that not being the way. And you've got an issue. Why do you keep sticking your bum out like that? And I was like, I'm not, I'm literally at this point, I'm concave, like I don't know what else to do. And it was more than one lesson when I felt like she was singling me out for what I now know to be my beautiful body. Yes. Oh, I thought, no, no, I can't do that. I can't be in here anymore. I'm too aware of the thing that my parents don't even talk to me about. Like they, I don't think they

could ever imagine that a ballet teacher, dance, freedom of expression in that way, would lead to her having an issue with, potentially an issue with her body. And I feel like if I didn't exit that situation then, I could have ended up really having some mental issues over my physical appearance. And that's where your wisdom came in, the wisdom of Gertrude and the self-knowledge. Because obviously you're aware of this people-pleasing tendency now, but it must be very difficult in a profession

that is geared up towards pleasing an audience, towards pleasing casting directors. How do you handle that? Is it sometimes difficult to find your voice in certain situations where you're being expected to be a settlement? Yes! Oh, my gosh. It's a real challenge and a journey. I did decide that straight out of drama school,

I didn't want to be typecast. I didn't want to be typecast for whatever that year said that anyone who looks like me should be, because I know it changes every time. And I could say in 2010, I don't want to be typecast. But in 2016, I'm going to be typecast as a thing that I've maybe forgotten about. So, the pleasing, I think because I decided what I wanted for my career, which by the way is not where I am now.

It's just like, I want a big varied career. There were some comments and conversations happening around me that didn't affect me as much as they could have because I'd made my own stance. But at the same time, you know that duck thing? Yes. When you're doing this underwater, it feels like I had to find a different layer of protection in order for me to not continuously think about not being the right one or enough or good for this or too tall or too curvy or they don't want a black girl or they don't want a black girl, or they don't want a woman. You know, it has to be a man, even though the script is just so open and it could be Eva. Yeah, I just developed a skin, but underneath really I was like, am I just not doing the

industry thing? Is there something that I've not been taught at drama school or in my early years of my career that I should know by now to make sure that I'm like the good actor, the acceptable actor? No one speaks about that, but there is something about the industry that is accepting and not accepting, and it changes all the time and you don't really know what it's going to be when. Yeah and you don't want to be called a diva because you're a woman, you don't want to be seen as awkward in some way but there's a very thin line between that and standing up for yourself in an entire culture that has been shaped by a millenary of patriarchy

that sees any woman who says anything that stands up for herself as being a bit awkward. Yeah. So difficult. Yes. And also when you are strong, when you're a strong woman, it's like you are either expected to go even stronger or it's like frowned upon to be vulnerable and not really know what you're doing. There's like a happy medium that no one has created a barometer

for that suddenly you should just understand. Because if you really speak up for yourself, which I have always found very terrifying, it's like, oh, she's talking. What does that mean? And how is she feeling? Is there an issue? What's happening? I'm like, no, no, I'm just expressing that I would quite like a salad and I don't eat meat and like, do you know what I mean? There's just certain obvious things. But then when you're kind of in the back and you're sitting in your vulnerability more, I think that there is a confusion in that like, but you're the strong one. You can't be strong and vulnerable at the same time. Like here, where we've hired you, you have to be poised and ready and rearing to go and excited. I'm like, I'm just not always that way. And can I ask you, just because I'm interested, because you're so fascinating to listen to

talking about racism and how it has different iterations and fluctuations and it becomes kind of more insidious and then you have to keep aware and calling it out. What were the typecasting conversations around that time was really popular. Like the London street girl that like always talked in slang and was like lower class and uneducated and didn't have a dad around and kind of dropped out of school really early and lived in a bad area and didn't have any prospects in life. That was a casting that I saw float around. Not necessarily just in my inbox,

but I would hear friends say, oh, there's this character that's like this, and I'd be like, that sounds awful to play. That's a lived experience, definitely. But to develop your career on that, I just didn't see it for myself. If I played a character like that once, I would like to think that I could have some autonomy in what her prospects are gonna be, how she feels about herself, showing her vulnerability, her pushing through something. There being some kind of triumph about her in the end, but I didn't have any control or power at the time. So there's no way to get a character like that and then think, oh, actually, I could turn

it into this. Because it literally was, what is on the page is what it's going to be. Now, I could see that and see it as a really exciting opportunity because you have all sorts of characters, just like the ones I've described in movies over the last 10 years, that actually are really inspiring and they've got a story to tell and they have reasoning behind their circumstances and it's all very, it just makes sense and it's like great filmmaking as well. The disparity is very, very wide. It makes so much sense to me how intentional your choices have been in that respect. And that again, is testament to your wisdom. It feels

like you've always seen the bigger picture. And so what you're doing is so important for so many young girls growing up who can see you defy the typecast. And that's a beautiful thing. Leaving aside the fact that you're a great actor and you're so compelling to typecast. And that's a beautiful thing. Leaving aside the fact that you're a great actor and you're so compelling to watch on screen, there's something about the roles that you choose that is so powerful. No question. I just wanted to say that. Oh, thank you. No, I'm glad because there's this thing that happens between you being conscious of what you're not choosing, conscious of what is coming into your inbox and what you choose to engage with. And then down the line when you become more experienced and

established conscious of what you're choosing because there's opportunities coming your way. One thing that I appreciate about myself is that I'm willing to have no money, not work for a long time and have to just push and work in another industry in order to gain the thing that I think I deserved. So I worked for the NHS for a long time. I worked at a courtesy car company for a while. I worked in retail because I knew that the things that were coming were like, I just don't think I'm going to look back on that in 10 years and feel proud of myself. That's so impressive. That's something I really struggle with and it's taken

me a lot longer, I think, to be more intentional with my no's because it does feed into this people-pleasing thing of, and also the freelance thing of, if I say no to this, maybe I'll never work again. There might never be another offer. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely been on, I'm still on the journey to say no. My no can be like, I mean, I think about it. Maybe I'll go on Thursday, but like, let's check in with me. But then when someone's like, so I'll see you on Thursday. I'm like, okay, I'll be there on Thursday because it's my fault.

I should have just said no and I didn't know how to. The being intentional about where I wanna be in my career and the choices I make, it also has to be backed up with being able to say no throughout that whole process. So if I choose to do a role, I have to have found some kind of autonomy within myself to continue the no's. Yes. Because there's like the choice, which is like, yes, I feel good. I've done that for myself. Great.

But then you have to back it up every single day. And that's what I find really hard. So even though it seems impressive that I've been selective, I still have to have like cheerleaders behind me going like, you don't have to do that thing. It's okay. Like, just say you're uncomfortable or just say you're not available. It's okay that you can't split your brain and be in two places at the same time. But I must be in two countries at the same time. That doesn't make sense to me.

I can't compute that. Yeah. Hello, I'm Elizabeth Day. You might know me as the creator and host of the How to Fail podcast, but I want to tell you about a new podcast I've made. How to Write a Book is for anyone who wants to get their story out there. Fronted by a bestselling author, a super agent and a powerhouse publisher, this 12-week masterclass will take you right through from developing an idea to nailing the plot.

If you want to get all episodes at once and completely ad-free, subscribe now. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast, Dinner's On Me. I take some of my favorite people out to dinner, including, yes, my modern family co-stars, like Ed O'Neill. I had friends in Organized Cry. Sofia Vergara. Why do you want to be comfortable?

Julie Bowen. I used to be the crier. And Aubrey Anderson-Emmons. I was so down bad for the middle of Miranda when I was like eight. You can listen to Dinners on Me wherever you get your podcasts. So before we get onto your final failure, there must be one role that you are thinking, God, that would be my dream role. That's sort of what you're working towards. I feel like you'd be a good Joan of Arc. Just going to put that out there.

Okay. Thank you, industry. One has already been done and no one else can do it. Literally. People, places and things. Have you seen it? Yes. Okay. That's her role.

Denise Goff, one of the best performances I've ever seen on stage. Ever, ever. Like that's, it's hers. She's just revived it. It's, don't, don't touch it. For me, don't ever touch that again. Just, it's been on twice. Great. Two countries, fantastic. Those kinds of roles that are complicated and ugly and like, deal with mental health

and deal with like, sense of self and the loss of that, and the grieving of yourself and how your choices affect your family and your environment, that is actually a dream role of mine. Not like anything glamorous or beautiful or... quote unquote sexy, whatever that even means. Just something that is like really dealing with the grit of being a human being.

Because a lot of the things I've done have been quite slick. You know, whether it be a superhero or an agent, because a lot of the things I've done have been quite slick. You know, whether it be a superhero or an agent, they're all very slick. And I'm now in the process through the day of the Jackal in finding characters that are like, that appear slick, but have something going on underneath it that they're contending with.

I find that really interesting. And I think the other great thing about Denise Goff's performance is that it has the courage to be unlikable, but ultimately as an audience, you end up rooting for and loving the character. It's amazing. Yes, it's so hard as a woman to be unlikable, but then still have people cheer for you at the end.

And not cheer as an applaud, but like want to support you, want to see you do better. That kind of character is just... the fact that they've achieved that and still have an audience that keep coming every night is like, it's beyond me actually. So I hope that there can be more roles like that for women that just show us that we just don't have to have all the answers. It's boring and it's impossible as well. I love that that was your answer. And I went to see that on the recommendation of a former guest on How to Fail Dan Levy. So we're in good company.

Oh, I love him. Yes. Oh, good. Good stuff. Good stuff. Okay. Your final failure, which made me laugh because I wondered how long it had taken you to come up with this failure. From a young age, I procrastinated in my quest to work on my procrastination. Still procrastinating with that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not procrastinated with getting that answer about procrastination. What do you procrastinate over? Is it everything or is it everything? Like, well, it feels like everything to me. It's like the small things that amount to really big things. So being given six months to do something or even a month to achieve something and then wait until the last minute and being like, I don't have any time. You've given me 24

hours to sort this thing and I've got to use my whole day, cancel everything, but then also at the back of that being like, I achieved it though. Fantastic. Great. Okay. Good. I'm all right. I didn't do too bad. Do you think it's actually part of your creative process that you need to impose the freneticism of a deadline in order to get your best work out? Yes. How did you know? I don't know. I just got a vibe. Literally that.

It took me years to understand that that is a thing, but because I struggled with it, I've just had to learn to appreciate that it is a part of my process and that it has brought me here, even if people don't see or understand that part. And I don't talk about it much either. I don't talk widely about how I forgot to do this thing or it slipped my mind or just I keep putting it off and, you know, the forms are there or the script is there or the emails are there, but I'm just gonna get to it later. And then sending a really slick response

or the form being perfectly filled out or the essay being perfectly written, it always appears as though it's been great on the other side and I've used that six months to get to that result. Yeah. You know? It's the dark paddling underwater again, but serene on the surface. Yes.

But do you procrastinate about things like what to wear in the mornings or what restaurants are going to, what are you going to eat tonight? Like that kind of stuff. Okay. For example, what to wear in the morning. I'm so... This is such a good question. OK, I literally would figure out the night before, sometimes even lay out the night before,

this jacket, even the underwear, socks, put it all together, just so I can have the speedy, get out of the shower, get ready and I'm done, ready to go. Because I also, I'm like a stickler for time. So I always want to be on time. I always want to make sure that things are doing, we're utilizing time, et cetera. But restaurants, what to do this evening, what to watch. I can spend an hour flicking and then just be like, well, I guess I'm just not doing anything this evening because I don't know what to watch, I can spend an hour flicking and then just be like, well, I guess I'm just not doing anything this evening because I don't know what to watch. Maybe it's a struggle because you can't watch anything as good as the things that you're in. Which brings us to our conclusion because I'm aware of time management and I know how important it is

for you and you've got to leave, but I cannot recommend, if you are thinking, if you're listening to this and procrastinating about what to watch tonight, The Day of the Jackal is riveting. It's like a modern day born identity, but even better. Lashana Lynch, I have loved this conversation so much. Oh, good. Thank you for turning up in your full power. And it's just been a really great exchange of thoughts. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for coming on How to Fail. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell everyone you know. This is an Elizabeth

Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.