How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Louise O’Neill - ‘Full Recovery Is Possible’

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

This episode contains references to and descriptions of eating disorders. Louise O’Neill is a bestselling, award-winning Irish author whose fearless writing has helped shape modern feminism. Her fiction is taught on the Irish curriculum and Paul Mescal starred in a critically acclaimed stage adaptation of her work. Her second novel, Asking For It, catapulted her into the public eye in 2015. Now, with her eighth book, A Bigger Life, O’Neill turns that same unflinching gaze on herself. Her memoir follows the extraordinary dating experiment she embarked on in her late 30s after the end of a long-term relationship: dating a different man every night, across three cities - Paris, London and New York. What began as a challenge, inspired by something her father said, became an unexpected journey of self-discovery. In this episode we discuss topics covered in her memoir, A Bigger Life, including: finding hope after heartbreak, pressure on women, extraordinary dating experiences and recovering from a debilitating two-decade-long eating disorder. A Bigger Life is out this month. IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 03:24 Writing Her First Memoir 04:58 Roots in West Cork 08:21 Dating for a Bigger Life 09:26 Choosing Hope After Heartbreak 13:22 Marriage Expectations and Milestones 16:57 Beauty Pressure and Aging Fears 27:12 Fear of Vulnerability 28:48 Aging and Shame 30:34 Trusting Your Instincts 33:35 The Millionaire Date 36:40 Recovery After 17 Years 42:57 Rewiring the Mind 48:35 Good Girl Burnout 52:07 Redefining Success 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: I didn’t want the break-up to define me. Life falls apart around us, and then we have to rebuild. The trick is to keep your heart soft. If I’m setting the narrative, I want it to be hopeful . I had to rewire my brain - I had to become an entirely new person. Then it became second nature. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Louise O’Neill’s memoir A Bigger Life is out now: https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/a-bigger-life-louise-oneill?variant=55970156118395 Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Dolly Alderton - swap.fm/l/XM98joc3GFEMTsLfkEfR Caitlin Moran - swap.fm/l/CaitlinMoran 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Louise answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://lnk.to/7i0moR Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: askhowtofail.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From the age of like 14 to 32, so nearly 20 years and all of my adult life, I went between kind of anorexia and bulimia. For that entire year, every time I woke up, the one sentence I kept going around my brain was, I'm going to die soon. And then the therapist said, she was really firm on this. She said, oh no. She said people make full of recoveries. Like my failure to recover and then, so as was the subsequent, like almost like as I said,

rewiring of my neural pathways has actually led me to be an adult that I think has a lot more freedom. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where each week I ask a guest about what failure has taught them. It's sometimes surprising, sometimes funny, sometimes moving, but it's almost always uplifting. Before we get started on this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada. It's not a coincidence.

One after the other. In the same house. Is this bad luck or something more sinister? The worst investigative mess I've ever encountered. A long simmering, what took you so fucking long, to get here. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is What Happened to the Harrisons. I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What Happened to the Harrisons is available now on The Binge.

Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to the Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad-free. Louise O'Neill is a best-selling, award-winning Irish author and former journalist, whose writing has been a shaping force in modern feminism. Her fiction is taught on the Irish curriculum. Paul Mescal starred in a highly acclaimed stage adaptation of her work. Her debut novel Only Ever Yours won multiple awards, but it was her second asking for it, published in 2015,

that catapulted her into the public eye. It told the story of Emma, who wakes up the morning after a party on her front porch with no memory of how she got there. It's only when she sees photos on social media that she realizes she's been assaulted. The book caused a national discussion in O'Neill's home country,

raising issues of consent and sexual violence. Her subsequent work has tackled similarly crucial topics, coercive control, female shame, toxic masculinity, and the dark sides of fame and social media. Now, with her new book, She has ventured for the first time into memoir. A bigger life turns this unflinching lens on O'Neill's decision

after the collapse of a long-term relationship in her late 30s to set herself the challenge of dating a different man each night in three different cities, Paris, London and New York. The experience taught her more about herself than she could have ever anticipated, and it was inspired by something her father, Michael, said to her. My life at 38 looked nothing like the one I had envisioned for myself, O'Neill recalls. I felt like I had failed in every possible way and I had no idea how to fix it. He listened to me and then he said, Louise, if you want a bigger life, you're going to have to take bigger risks.

Louise O'Neill, welcome to how to fail. It is so surreal listening to you because I've been a fan of the podcast for such a long time to ask. actually hear, like, me getting the How to Fail introduction. I'm just like, this is insane. This is very surreal. I can't believe this is happening. Well, I had an additional pressure because you are one of my favourite people and we are really good friends. And I didn't want to get a single thing wrong. Is this your eighth book? Yes. I don't know how you say that and I'm like, I'm actually not sure. Isn't my eight? Yes, it's my, I have written seven novels and then this is my first memoir. How did you find it turning to nonfiction? Oh my God. It is a

so hard. I really struggled at the beginning to get the voice right which is so funny because it's my voice but there was a part of me I think with fiction you're so used to writing in the character's voice that I was really concerned at the beginning does this feel too chatty does this feel too informal

because it was very much coming from me and then the second part is just how incredibly exposing it is and I mean you know this because you know you have written nonfiction but also have been so incredibly generous with your life experience and with everything that you've gone through. And I'm always really impressed by how you managed to do that because even with just writing the memoir, I feel

very vulnerable in a way that I think you can kind of hide with fiction. Yes. So if you've any tips, please give it to me. For me, that goes to the root of something that you've examined so brilliantly in a bigger life, which of course I loved. And I think you're such a phenomenal writer. But it goes to the core of this idea of womanhood being conditioned to please others. And that's something that we have to fight against every single day. And in a way, your anxiety or any fear of exposure is a sign that you're doing it right. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, then given the level of anxiety, then I must be really, really doing it right. Yeah. Let's talk about your dad. He's a butcher in Conner Kiltin, Westpork. It's a butcher that's been in the family since 1990.

Yes, it's a very long-standing family tradition sort of passed on from Michael Joseph O'Neill, the first to the second and now the third. And then he had two daughters, neither of whom are that interested in becoming butchers. So I'm not sure what's going to happen once he retires. But yeah, it has been in our family for a very long time. There's something really interesting about growing up

in such a small town. Like I grew up in Clan of Kilty in West Cork. and having those kind of roots that go so deep. And in a way, I think I found it very stifling, actually, as a young person because it felt as if my future or let's say the expectations that other people had for me were really set in stone according to who I was and who my family was.

And I think I had such, I don't know, such hopes and such huge dreams and such ambition. And I mean, I was lucky, I suppose, that my family, particularly my parents, were, like, incredibly supportive of that, which I think if you read a bigger life, like, you'll see that. But I definitely think that I needed to move away in order to, I don't know, come into my own or find myself. And then I was able to come back, I think, once I had done that, once I had sort of grounded myself properly. And this is who I am as a person outside of, like, you know, the fact that my father or my father's family have owned this butcher shop on. on the main street of Clanicalty for generations. Do you think that butchery has taught you anything about the art of writing?

Well, I don't know if I think the way my dad approaches things. And I think he's very meticulous and he's a real perfectionist and like has very high standards for himself, which I think have been really helpful. And that kind of willpower, you know, I think that as a writer you need that because so much of it is, you know, like there's no one looking over your shoulder, like checking your work,

you have to be very self-motivated. So I think having a parent who sort of set that example, you know, for all, I think the example that he set, I think constitutionally, I was just someone I think who really, and I think it probably was stemming from a fear of not being good enough. So then any time I made a mistake, anytime I failed at any way,

like this incredibly strong instinct kicked in of like, well, this is more proof. Like, you're not good enough. And then, so then failure began to feel like terrifying. Like, it felt like a death. And, you know, at the start of a bigger life, like, you know, my five-year relationship has broken down. I'm about to turn 38.

All of a sudden, I'm like, okay, you know, marriage, children, like these things might not happen for me. We had just bought a house six months previously. the shame that I felt around that failing was so intense because again it was, are people going to look at me and think, why can't she sort of make a relationship work? Yeah, I think the shame was almost corrosive really. We're going to get into that more because of your first failure.

But before we kick off with that, I want to talk a little bit more about a bigger life because, yes, it is about this dating experiment, but it's about more than that too. It is about women and what it means to be a woman right now. And one of the things that I really appreciated about it was your radical optimism. Because you go through these really tough times and that causes you to explore in this sort of questing curious way that you have. And the dates that you go on, by and large, you point out that they were good experiences. They taught you something necessary.

And you also examine everything from kind of Botox to consent. And there's always, underneath it all, I feel, this drumbeat of sisterhood that I loved and is quite rare to read. How aware were you when you were writing this book that you wanted it to be that radically optimistic? Do you know, it's interesting, when the breakup happened, one of my first instincts was I don't want to get stuck here. And, you know, I talk about this in the book that like when I was 14, my uncle died and he was 30. And, you know, we had, because my parents were so young having us, like I spent a lot of my sister and I spent a lot of time with my maternal grandparents. And two of my uncles were still living at home. So they were all really more like big brothers than.

anything else. And I remember when that happened, you know, my grandmother was obviously so devastated. And, but what I thought was really striking, because this happened in 1999. And, you know, for an Irish woman of that generation, she was so determined not to let it define her. Like, she went to group therapy sessions again. This would not have been, you know. And I think she said that she had seen other people who had gone through something terrible and how it had sort of like they had been crystallized in the grief and became like, I suppose, difficult to be around. You know, like when someone is that sad for that long,

that she said she didn't want to become isolated and she didn't want to be left alone because all she had was her grief. And I think watching someone really make an effort to sort of move through that, to feel her feelings, but also like to heal from it, from like the worst loss that you can possibly have. So I think that was kind of in the back of my mind with the breakup.

And I just was like, I don't want to allow this to define me. I don't want to become bitter. I don't want to become resentful. And I also don't want to carry this with me. So like I did so much work in 2003 in order to heal. Because, and I suppose I kind of figured that out by the end of the journey was that that is what life is about is that we fall apart. Life falls apart around us. And then we have to rebuild.

and actually the trick is is keeping your heart soft and I think that you know people talk about the dating scene and how terrible it is and how dehumanising it is but actually I think a really big problem is

that most people who are dating have been really hurt you know they've been through a breakup they've been through a divorce they've had their heart broken and they're kind of going back into this with like their defences up and kind of really like on a

for danger and very quick, I think, to take offense if, you know, someone says something or does something that they see as that danger. And then it's really hard to connect. And I suppose I just wanted to do my best to heal so that when I started dating again, or even if I didn't, that I would just be open and, as you said, optimistic. And every time, like, you know, I went on a lot of dates and every time something went wrong. And every time, you know, I went on like a date that wasn't great or, you know, there's one I talk about

in the book where, you know, he frightened me. You know, there was a man in Central Park and he grabbed, I said something and then he answered and I didn't quite hear what he said and he grabbed me by the face

and he said, I was talking to you and I remember just like instantly kind of going into that like fight or flight. I left, blocked him and then I was like,

I'm going to shake that off. And like went out on another date that night and that date was wonderful. And I decided, to allow that be what it defined that day. And I'm not, again, I'm not saying this is easy. Like, I've, you know, been through my own trauma

and, like, my own grief and, like, you know, all of those things. And I know how easy it is to be triggered in those situations. But I think, I suppose, I just wanted to feel like that I was setting the narrative and that if I was setting the narrative, I wanted to be, it to be hopeful.

What an answer. Yeah. That was amazing. Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada. It's not a coincidence. One after the other. In the same house.

Is this bad luck or something more sinister? The worst investigative mess I've ever encountered. Long, simmering, what took you so fucking long to get here. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is what happened to the her. I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What happened to the Harrison's is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to the Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. Okay, let's get on to your failures. Your first failure, as you put it, failure to have a marriage like my parents. So when did they meet and marry and have children?

Hey, so my parents, this is so funny because my mother went to boarding school in Clanacilty, where I'm from, and she really didn't like it. And I think it was a homebird and didn't, you know, so did not want to be at that boarding school, which funnily enough turned out to be the school that my sister and I both attended. So when she left, she said, I'm never going back to Clankeleton. And then she met my father at a football match, of course, everything centres around GA. and I mean this is how they tell it she was like he had a sandwich with him and she was like oh my God

would he not buy a sandwich out you know that kind of way and then he said she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen and he was instantly absolutely obsessed with her so I think that was 17 and I think they maybe broke up for a little bit when they were maybe 19

but they were married by 21 wow yeah and then had my older sister when they were 23 and then they had me when they were 25 I don't know, there's just something about watching people go through their entire lives together. Like, you know, they have known each other, as I said, since they were teenagers. And I think constantly meeting these new iterations of each other and learning how to love this new version of that person. And I think just this really, like, it's just been this kind of masterclass really in unconditional love.

And I think I've been really lucky to sort of have that. I mean, which is kind of funny given that like, you know, that I had really struggled to, I suppose, emulate that. But I don't know, there's a certain loss in knowing that, you know, I will never be a young bride. Like, I will never be a young parent. And I will never have this sort of relationship. I mean, they've been together for 40, married for 45 years together, you know, 50.

I remember turning 40 and feeling that it was such a big deal. because I could remember my parents turning 40. I was cognizant enough as an individual. I was grown up enough to vividly remember that. And it highlighted the fact that, just as you're saying, I didn't have those children who would ever remember me turning 40. And that's a strange thing when you come to terms with the idea that there are versions of your life that will be forever unlibed.

Yes, exactly. And I think, you know, I'm 41 now. and like to think of them at 41 because again I have I mean I was 16 when they were 41 they had a 16 and an 18 year old and they had a house a business all day home in Spain

I'm like what am I do and I understand that let's say you know things are different now and I do think that's part of the millennial curse newly is that inability to tick off those markers of adulthood that I think our parents were able to do

well it seemed like effortlessly but there's there's I don't know But sometimes, like, still, if I have like, I don't know, if something, if I have a stain and I can't get the stain out, I will go to my mother. Like, I'll go into the house and I'm like, how do I get rid of this? And I said to her one day, I said, when you were 41, or what was the, oh, no, I asked her, would she help me with my car insurance? That I said to her, I said, when you were 41, were you asking your mother to do this? And she looked at me and she was like, absolutely not. Like, dead in the eye.

Like, of course not, you absolute loser. I was a proper adult One of the things that you write about so brilliantly in a bigger life is the tweakments that you have and I've always appreciated this about you and we've exchanged lengthy voice notes on the topic

because you make no bones about the fact that as a car carrying feminist you understand that it is also an inherent contradiction as do I to pursue the desire to look

the best that you can at any given age. But will you tell us where you are with that? Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I think, you know, and I write about this in the book, my relationship with my appearance has always been a difficult one. Like, you know, I developed anorexia and then bulimia when I was 14 and really struggled with that. You know, there was periods of maybe like six months here or like five months there where I might be almost what I would consider like a dry drunk where that I wasn't properly here.

but the symptoms weren't there. So I, from the age of, like, yeah, 14 to 32, so nearly 20 years and all of my adult life, I went between kind of anorexia and bulimia. And, like, it was a really, like, it was very, you know, of course, any eating disorder is serious, but like this was a huge part of my life. I was very, very, very unwell.

And I think when I recovered, so much of that was almost trying to, be neutral about my appearance trying not to think about it too much but that it was always a little bit tricky like you know I say that it's like a broken bone like you know that it'll mend but it never quite feels the same

like you know it aches and cold weather that kind of thing I don't know I suppose then that kind of wanting you know particularly in this job like I feel like most of the time I barely think about it but I don't know how you do this where you're on camera all the time

and like just that awareness of like that aspect of yourself. I just don't know if we're meant to be looking at ourselves. And I think everyone, actually, not even just a job like this, anyone who is on Zoom or anyone who like, you know, takes photos of themselves or like, you know, for social media, whatever, you'll have that understanding of

we're almost looking at ourselves too much. And I think it can be really easy to become very obsessive with that. And I often say that like the fear of aging, I nearly feel like is replacing diet culture. Because I think like a lot of millennials have sort of have done a lot of work to unpick diet culture and now the fear of aging has kicked in

and like I did spend all of my 20s hating my body and I don't want to spend all of my 40s hating my face so I'm really trying my best to kind of heal that relationship as well but I suppose also you know like wanting to look my best

like you know and it's I don't know and I think you know people will listen or who are listening will I think definitely have like such different opinions on this because it is I think quite a contentious topic of conversation and you know I I do Botox maybe like once every eight months to a year like I've had sculpture and microneedling and like you know all of these things I think that when the breakup happened I was just about to turn 38 and Elizabeth I thought my life was over and I know you've listened yeah I know and I remember because you sent me

the most amazing voice message talking about this breakup that you'd been through. Was it 138 or 39? Exactly the same age. Yeah. I was just about to turn 39. It was three weeks before I turned 39. Yes. And I remember that and I still remember I was walking on the beach and you'd sent me a voice message and I was listening to it. And I held on

to that so tightly. Just this sense of like, okay, because I think that sometimes we talk about the hope. Like you need that hope to just kind of pull you through. I was like, okay, if it can happen to Elizabeth, maybe it can happen to me, you know? and I think as well and loads of women

I think listening to this will understand that there's so much pressure put on you particularly I think in your like mid to late 30s around fertility and making decisions

and this idea of time running out which I mean again we could talk about that for a very long time about like what those are really a lot of that is based on very outdated scientific information

but and again and also I think that rhetoric that if you're over 35 the dating apps hell. If you're over 35, no one is going to be interested in you. If you're over 35, you may as well be dead. And that was not my experience. And actually, I think those ideas are so harmful because I think they're keeping women trapped in relationships that they do not want to be in for longer than they should because they are afraid that there are no other options.

They are afraid that this is the best that they can do. They're afraid that they go out onto the dating app that it's just going to be a hellscape. And, you know, a friend of my mother's whose husband died a few years ago just, you know, fell in love with this amazing man. She's 66. She told me about a friend of hers whose mother has just gotten a new boyfriend. The mother is 83.

So like, do you know what I mean? I'm like, I just feel like we have to. So actually, by the end of the book, I think I was so much less afraid of ageing. And at 41, I feel so much younger than I did at 38. Does that make sense? It makes complete and utter sense. and I utterly agree with you.

Like, yes, everything that you just said. Yeah, thank you. I know a number of friends who, because I'm of that age now where a lot of my contemporaries are getting divorced. Yeah. And they've had enormous, healthy success on the apps because they're looking for something different than what I was looking for when I was 39 and on the apps. my own desperation. Whereas my friends have had their kids

if they wanted them. They've got divorced. They're looking for something that is companionship without too much responsibility. And actually that's such... They're looking for good sex as well. Yes, they're looking for great sex.

Companionship. I was like, what are we on a good? Jane Austen novels. I'm 47 Louise and that's my language. We just want companionship. I'm sorry, yeah, sorry. Over the age of 45, you're not allowed of sex anymore.

I forgot about that. Actually, some of them have ended up. up with friends who started out as a romantic prospect, but because they're going through something similar, whether it be co-parenting or aging, they've ended up as friends. But it's such an attractive prospect, actually, that kind of person. So I think it's really important to put that narrative out there. Looking back on this failure, this failure to have a marriage like your parents, you have said to me that you had a series of unhealthy relationships. What do you think the root cause of that dysfunction was.

Yeah, I know, because when you're saying, when I've had this like wonderful example and actually I think, and I talk about that in a bigger life because that was such a huge part of the journey because I remember when I came back from Paris and I was telling you about all these really hot men. My God, the Frenchmen loved you.

Oh, the Frenchmen. They're just incredible. And you said to me, you know, you said, what did you learn about yourself? Elizabeth's like, ever the interviewer, do you know, ever? Get deep. And one of the things that I, I suppose, I really did learn about myself was that I could sort

of see looking back that I had this pattern of either going for like emotionally unavailable men who, you know, really would not have had the capacity to have the relationship that I claimed I wanted. And then I became like almost obsessive about like trying to win their approval, trying to like make them love me because I suppose a part of me felt well if this person. and who clearly has no interest. If I can make them love me, then maybe I can believe

that I actually am lovable. And then, kind of flip-flopping then to like another type of man who, you know, professed to love me so deeply and that I perhaps didn't love them as much, but that I felt safe in it

because I thought they love me more, therefore they will never leave me, therefore they will never hurt me. And even if they do leave me, I'm not going to get hurt because I'm not fully sort of emotionally invested in this anyway. And actually I suppose what I was able to sort of trace it back to, which again was in the process of writing this

because I talk about at the end of the book that I met someone. And my friend, one of my best friends said to me, you must be so relieved not to have to date anymore. And when she said it, I got this like real shock because my instinct was no, the dating is. easier because the dating I can go, it's one date, I can be dazzling. Like I can just be this perfect woman and I will never let them close enough to hurt me and I'll never be close enough to

disappoint them. Whereas actually, you know, I think being vulnerable in that way felt really terrifying the idea of true intimacy. And, you know, I do think that, you know, it stems. And again, I, you know, I mentioned this in the book where like when I was 14, my uncle died. And, you know, I think it is that experience of like your entire life changing in a phone call where, you know, we were, it was my aunt was getting married and my sister and I were going to be the bridesmaids. So we're in the department store and we have, you know, we're trying on the bridesmaids outfits and I can hear my mother's mobile ring and she answers the phone. And then all I hear is her saying, is he dead? And I turn around because I thought maybe she was talking about dad and, you know, just that terror. And she was like, we have to go

and you know, you're tearing off the dresses and getting into the car and like driving over home. Sorry, that's what I call my grandparents' house and opening the door and I could just hear this screaming. And, you know, he was engaged to be married to this really lovely woman

who was only like 25. You know, she was only a baby herself. And I think witnessing that level of grief I just, the message that I internalised was this is what happens when you love someone and this is what happens

when you lose them and I just thought I'm never going to let that happen to me and I think I you know I think sometimes when that happens at such a young age you almost forget and then you don't understand

in adulthood why you know this pattern is kind of playing out and why all of these things are happening until you I think have that moment and go, because I was like, I can't let this. I'm about to turn 40 and I've never allowed myself to be vulnerable enough to truly be in love. And I was like, I can't live the rest of my life like this. You know?

I mean, they're talking about failure. I mean, that is a big failure to be looking down the barrel at 40 and think, I've never had that. Have you opened your heart to it now? Yeah. Okay. I'm so sorry you went through that devastating loss when you were 14. What was your uncle's name? His name was Michael as well.

Listen, listen. Irish people have a certain generation. They all have about five notes. Michael, Mary. There's a few John, Anne. Yeah, he was wonderful. Do you know, and just too young? I just wanted the chance to say his name and to remember him.

And thank you for sharing that. And also, can I just, sorry, just to say, because I think, you know, when we talk about the fear of aging, I think a part of me almost felt ashamed around being afraid of aging. Do you know, like, of even with getting the Botox and like getting these things. Because I know that what the alternative is. Yeah. Do you know? Like, I know what that like aging is a privilege. And even, you know, I, I, I, I, when my grandmother died, like, I sat with her. I was alone with her. You know, we were taking, you know, we were taking. shifts and she just I was there with her when she died and you know I was singing be not afraid to her

and you know she passed and I remember just looking at her and you know it's this it was this incredibly profound moment

because I had this realization someday I'll do this with my own mother and I looked at her face and every wrinkle on it and I could see

what my face would look like you know in 50 years time and it's just there is as I said that feeling of like a tiny bit of shame around

like what's the goal to kind of look 35 forever to not see my mother's face appear on mine in the mirror to not see my grandmother's face appear too because of the incredible facelift. Incredible salmon sperm facial are having. The incredible facelift I'm going to get

no I'm joking. Please buy the book in order this is basically a go fund me from my inevitable facelift. I think I want to release you from that manual of shame because for me it's also about health and your skin is an organ

and it's about keeping it healthy in the same way that we go to the dentist and if we are lucky enough to be able to invest in that then I find that to be valid. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Final question on this particular failure. When someone dies before their time in a shocking way, when a relationship ends brutally,

in a manner you hadn't anticipated. One of the things that often happens is that you lose faith. You lose faith in your own judgment. Yes. And you lose faith in the reliability of the world around you. Is that something that happened to you after this relationship ended when you were 38, that you lost faith in your judgment? Oh, yeah.

I mean, I think that was probably the hardest thing. I mean, I was blindsided by the end of the relationship. But I had had an instinct, you know, that like we weren't right for each other and I hadn't listened to it and I think a lot of that was because in recovery you know I started recovering at 32 and I got into this relationship at

33 and I think a part of me in recovery wanted everything to look right you know because like I think anyone who's anyone who has experienced addiction or who has dealt with like something like an Asian disorder

it really sort of stunts you emotionally so in a lot of lot of ways, you know, I did start it when I was 14 and then I recovered at 32 and I kind of looked up and looked around and thought, I am so behind. Like, you know, my friends who have been sort of having these normal developmental stages are getting married and having children and buying houses. And I am really like, for all intents and purposes, like a teenager. And I think then all of a sudden I was like, I just want things to be orderly and everything

had gotten so chaotic in the sort of the death throes of the Asian disorder, which again, I think anyone dealing with an addiction will understand that, like how out of control everything had become, that I wanted things to be orderly, I wanted things to be neat. I was like, yes, you know, here I am. I have a savings account and I have, you know, this man who's perfect on paper and, you know, we've just bought our first house together and, you know, tick, tick, tick, I'm okay. And then I suppose, was any of it, what I'm not? I actually wanted. You know, and I think that was the thing was that I didn't give myself enough space to think

about that and I didn't trust my own instincts. And then when it fell apart, actually that was probably the hardest bit was being so angry with myself because I thought I should have left when I was 34. If I had left a 34 or 35, I felt like those extra couple of years, particularly, you know, because of all of the, I suppose, the fear mongering that we hear around fertility

that that would have given me a little bit more of a cushion. And then it was, you know, I can't trust myself. I can't trust my judgment. And like, again,

so much of this journey was me figuring out how to trust myself again. And like, I think you really see that, you know, let's say, you know,

in the book, I talk about like, you know, I meet this, this man who is incredibly wealthy. Do you know, like wealth, I know, I know, girl. I know. One of my favorite anecdotes, okay.

Only Louise O'Neill could go on the dating apps and get a multi-millionaire to fly from the states to come and see her. And the first date. On the first date in West Cork. I know, I know. It's funny, though, because two men drove from Dublin, which is an eight-hour round trip for a first date as well. and my mother said one of them was the Easter weekend. And she said, he's not driving down for our first date. Is he an Easter weekend?

And I said, yeah. And she said, well, I hope he doesn't die in the M50. I wouldn't want a man's life on my conscience. I was like, okay. Your mother's iconic. Yeah, oh, she is. She is. And then my dad, when this man, as you said, flew in to take me on our first date.

And I had to drive sort of like, you know, I won't give distances, but I had to drive to sort of meet him. And my dad thought, well, really now, why is he making you drive? like do you know this kind of like nothing would be good enough you know he was really kind and he was really handsome

and he was I mean it was really interesting being pursued by someone who had obviously you know experienced an enormous amount of success and kind of knew what he wanted and then really moved to get what he wanted

and he's like you are what I want and you know kind of laid out the life that we would have together you know he said we'll winter at his estate in Hawaii and you know he said I you know then we can go between New York and Ireland. And then he did say to me,

this part really hurt me, he did say he was like, he started looking at property in West Cork that he would buy for us. A free house. Do you have any idea how bad... Do you have any how bad the property market is in Ireland? I was like, oh my God.

You know, as a writer, the idea of like never... Because it's such an inherently insecure job, both financial and otherwise. And I think the thought of never having to worry about any of that ever again you know like switching off my brain becoming a Pilates princess

living my best soft life but like there was such a strong instinct like in my gut going this isn't right and I couldn't explain that in the same way that if you had asked in my previous relationship like what is that instinct

it's like it doesn't make logical sense and there is no explaining it and there is no reason and there is you know it's just this felt sense in the body. And I think that we're all, I think we've really

like lost that art of sort of tuning into our body and what it's trying to tell us. And I had to say to him I was like, I just don't think this is going to work out. And, you know, he was upset and, you know, I think he was right

to be upset in some ways. But like, and like all my friends were like, please don't break up with him. We want to go in the private chat. Let's actually talk about your recovery because that is one of your failures. And you have put it as a failure to recover for 17 years. So this idea of not trusting your body or seeking to control it and be something, whatever that illusion of perfection might be, lasted for, as you say, almost two decades.

How did you recover? I know that's probably an impossible question, but there'll be so many people listening and watching who will want to know. I know. I mean, yeah, as I said, nearly two decades. And also, like, by the time I recovered, I really had no sense in my body of what it was like to eat normally. Because 14, like, you're still a child. So for all of my adult life, I had had an eating disorder.

Like the way in which I think my neural pathways were wired was in service of that eating disorder. every time I failed to recover. Because, you know, my parents found out that I had, I think they figured out I had bulimia at 17. So they made me start seeing a therapist. And it's so funny looking back because what year, I was 17. So like 2002.

And like the thought of seeing a therapist was so shameful that I remember telling people that I had pernicious anemia and I had to go get iron injections every week because she didn't see people after four. I think had a few months where I thought, oh, I'm going to get better. and then relapsed. So it felt like every time that I, like, recovered for a little bit and then would relapse again,

it just became harder and harder to believe that I would ever get better. And, like, there was a couple of times, like, I remember when this one time in, I think, I was living in New York and I had come home for, was maybe Christmas. And my mother had, like, I was really, I mean, like, so underweight at that point. So it was eating very little. did eat anything, I would make myself get sick. And she, I came down, I think she was sitting at the kitchen and she was just very still. And I remember coming down and saying, just trying to talk to her.

And she just looked at me and she said, I know what you were doing. And I said, you know, I was like, what do you, you know, I wasn't doing anything. And she said, just don't lie to me. She said, I'm so tired of you lying to me. And I said, I promise, Mom, I won't do it again. And then she, again, she just said, Louise, I don't believe you. And you could just tell

it was breaking her heart. She was like, I just don't believe you anymore because like you have said this so many times. And then after that I was okay for maybe six months and then I relft again.

So every time it happened, I just thought, I probably am never going to get better. So I think when I was 32, it was after asking for it had been such a success. Second novel. Yeah, my second novel,

sorry, which had been such a success in Ireland, but it also brought a huge amount of like trolling and backlash and a lot of attention both, you know, some positive and some really negative. And, you know, because that book was dealing with sexual violence, people were really sharing their stories with me. And that was such a huge privilege,

but you'd do an event and someone would tell you, like the worst thing that had ever happened to them. And then I would go back to the hotel room and just feel utterly hollow. The only way that I knew to fill that voice, was by abusing food. So that was the best year of my life professionally and just the absolute worst in terms of health.

So then I think it just became untenable. I was like, for that entire year, every time I woke up, the one sentence I kept going around my brain was, I'm going to die soon. I'm going to die soon. Because there's no possible way that a body can withstand what I'm putting it through.

and you know having watched my mother like having watched what she went through with my uncle like it broke my heart that I was like I'm going to do this to her again yeah I couldn't seem to stop and you know I then I suppose and you know it's interesting often when we talk about these things there's such a huge amount of privilege in it because due to asking for it doing so well

I suddenly had more money. And having more money meant that I could put, I could kind of throw everything at like every sort of treatment that I could get. And I started, you know, working with an incredible,

like a therapist who specialized in eating disorders. And she said to me, she was like, I want your parents to come in. And we had done, like I had been in an inpatient in hospital when I was 21 for three months.

So we had done some family therapy. But they came. up to see her. And she said to them, she said, you know, what do you know about Louise's eating disorder? And they sat there and they said everything. And I think what was so shaming was that I thought I had been really clever. Like I thought that I had managed to disguise a lot of it or hide a lot of it. And they just knew everything. And they just looked so broken at that point. And they were like, look, she's an adult. Like, you know, we've tried.

Like, you know, we, and then I'm not sure which one of them said it, but they said something like, you know, we've accepted that Louise will always struggle with this. But we just want her to be happy or to live like some sort of normal life. And then the therapist said, she was really firm on this. She said, oh no. She said, people make full of recoveries. She said, I've seen it.

She said, I've seen it countless times. And in the same way, when you messaged me, saying that thing about, you know, that you had gone through this breakup at 39 and then I'd met the love of your life. There was something that went off in the back of my brain that went, okay, the hope that something is possible is so incredibly powerful. Because if it's happened to someone else, maybe it can happen for me. And I kept that with me just this idea of like full recovery is possible, full recovery is possible. And it was so, like it was such hard work. And like a lot of it was like, you know, we talk about like the neural pathways in your brain.

Like I had to completely rewire the neuropathways in my brain. I had to become an entirely new person. And then it started to become like second nature. And that was when I was like, this is crazy. Because I think it really showed me like the power of the mind. Because all of a sudden, it's like something that's clicked. I wonder is it like learning a language. Do you know?

This is so fascinating. So was it therapy that helped with that? So it would be like stupid example, but say I desperately wanted to be blog. I would wake up each morning and instead of thinking, I so desperately want to be blonde, I would force myself to think, I love bringing brunette. Yes, yes, okay. And also what I did was every time a negative thought came up, and this was tiring because there was thousands of them a day, every time a negative thought came up about food

or weight or my body, I would say, is that the ultimate truth? And then I would look for like evidence that that didn't have to be true. So if I had this thought about food, let's say that that food is really bad for you. And then I think, well, that's interesting because I saw Emer eat that the other day and Emer looks great, you know, or something like that. Or Eamor ate it without any kind of qualms or didn't, you know, it was just food. You know, she just edited as food. And the more that I did it and really like dedicated myself to it, it just became like second nature to the point where now

it's almost hard for me to think of that person because it feels like an entirely different Louise. And actually in a weird way, like my failure to recover and then the subsequent like almost like as I said, rewiring of my neural pathways has actually led me to be an adult that I think has a lot more freedom around food and around weight

than a lot of other women my age who never would have had eating disorders but had sort of like, you know, I mean, hello, We grew up being told that a balanced diet was having, you know, two bowls of special K and then for breakfast and for lunch. And a swim fast. Yes. I think we're entitled to compensation. Like I really think we should do some sort of mass action.

And it's so interesting you say that because you and I have had conversations about weight loss jabs and their prevalence for, I would say, celebrities who don't need them and are potentially using them as a way to have a medicalized eating disorder. And you have said that it does not affect you in the way that some people might think it would. It does not trigger you because you know what that costs. You know the pain of that. And I find that so inspiring. But it's so important. Because look, when it comes to GLP1s, like in the same way that if we were sitting here and you told me that you were on medication for blood pressure, I'd be like, okay. I mean, that's between you and your doctor.

So like if someone is taking a GLP1 for like, you know, a medical reason, absolutely. I think as you said, the issue is when you're seeing already thin women using it to become what looks like very frail anyway from the outside. I would argue, yes, that it's medicalised anorexia and that if I had been, if I was still in an active eating disorder, I would be doing anything, anything to get my hands on these, whether through like a legitimate sort. or like buying it on the internet because I would be like incredible. Like this is sort of the answer to my dreams. And actually what I think is so important for women and actually particularly younger women

because I think that when you're in your 20s, you're not thinking about things like fertility. You're not thinking about things like your hormonal health. You're certainly not thinking about your bone density. And you know, you're not thinking about like muscle mass. And like when you're in your 40s and you're sort of like looking like the metapause down the barrel, like all of these things.

are like, okay, in order to survive this, I am going to need to be healthy and I am going to need to be at like my body's like natural set point. Fighting way. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And again, focusing more on, you know, I know this sounds so tedious, but like it is important, like strength.

Like, you know, particularly let's say if I end up single and child free at 90 or okay, maybe 85, whatever, I want to be able to live independently. And like, I'm not going to be able to do that if I'm dieting at this point to the point of making my bones brittle. Because that is, I remember getting a bone density scan,

like maybe it was 30. And they were like, we can see already, like signs of osteo. The one before osteoporosis, like osteo-malasia or something like that. And they were like, this is reversible if you start strength training, which I did at 32, which has been an incredible help. Thank you so much for opening up about that. And if we are to leave any listener or viewer with one phrase from today, I would say that it is full recovery as possible.

What an extraordinary gift for you to give others through the painful journey that you have travelled. And it says I would also say that it's very hard work. With that you have no, God, I even get shivers thinking of this, but I'm like you have no idea of the peace that's on the other side. You have no idea of the level of freedom that's on the other side. there is so much joy waiting for you. And I think that is, again, coming back to hope. And hope does, by its nature, make life bigger because there's more potential. There are more opportunities. Your final failure weaves into everything we've been speaking about,

which is, as you put it, the failure of trying to be, quote, unquote, the good girl. What did the good girl represent to you? I suppose because I think for my entire life, I had this sense of, like, like, if I work hard enough, everything will work out. And then, you know, I think that had, and that had really held true for me in school. It had really held true for me in my career. And then I think when, like, when the relationship fell apart,

and all of a sudden I was just left with this sense of, but I worked so hard. Yes. Like, I tried so hard at this. Like, why is it not? Like, why has it fallen apart? why has it failed? Like this isn't fair.

To be honest, I feel like this every time I have a breakout. I'm like, what else do you want from me? I'm doing everything. And I think it is that like almost having to accept that sometimes life isn't fair that sometimes you'll do all the skincare

and not eat any sugar and I'm still going to get like, you know, a spot like just before my period or that like the relationship isn't going to isn't going to work out. And actually I think letting go of that need to be, I don't know, like the good girl to be,

thin enough to be pretty enough, to be smart enough, to be successful enough. And kind of this realization that no matter every time I hit a marker, every time that I, I don't know, achieved something or achieved a goal or had some sort of external validation of success, that it was so temporary the feeling of satisfaction. And then instantly the hunger started again. Like what's next? and it is this constant driving force

that I think that I thought for such a long time that I needed it I thought for such a long time that it was responsible for my success and that if I didn't have it then I would just become lazy and I wouldn't have any motivation and then I think I really started to realise that actually this is like a really cruel taskmaster and I'm absolutely exhausted

and still despite all of that everything's falling apart anyway and like you know in 2020 after the breakup had happened again the instinct was well I'm just going to start working I'm going to throw myself into my writing

and by the end of this year I'll have like probably two novels finished and maybe a collection of you know poetry and maybe I'll write like a thinly veiled and a screenplay based on this and you know all of these things and then it was like my brain

had broken. Like I just couldn't seem to focus. Like I felt like I had lost my words. I felt like I just had lost myself. And that was terrifying because again it was who am I without the work? Who am I without the identity of the good girl or the one who delivers? And there just comes a point I think where it's like these identities that we put so much weight upon, you have to let go. And they're not ours to carry in so many ways. I mean, so much of what we've been talking about and what you've written about is this idea that we thought we had a plan for life and it didn't turn out that way. But so often the plan isn't instinctively ours. It's something that has been conditioned into us or we've inherited in some way.

And I wonder if we could bring this to a close by talking about success and what that means to you. Because a bigger life ends, and I know this annoyed you at the time. because you didn't want it to be this sort of neat pat ending that made other women feel excluded and by the way it's not because you do a lovely job of handling it but you meet someone that's not the overarching story of this book

it's about so much more than that and if anything I think it's about being in a loving relationship with yourself and how to get there what does success mean to you now having written this book I think after again, as I spoke about earlier, after asking for it, my second novel took off in the way that it did in Ireland

and feeling very much like the kind of eye of that storm and also feeling like I almost had like a target on my back. It was really interesting afterwards to see how afraid I had become of success because to me success meant that it almost felt dangerous. Like it felt as I said like having a target on my back. It felt like people hating me. It felt like people, honestly, it felt like being back at school and like overhearing like someone bitching about you in the toilet. It's true that way as in just this complete level of overexposure that felt genuinely terrifying.

And I think I've really almost had a push-pull sort of relationship with it ever since, particularly around like visibility and being seen because, as I said, that it felt so destabilizing at the time. And actually, I suppose, writing this book, which is so personal and is so raw. And again, that feeling of like really, yeah, I suppose like being vulnerable in that way. But I kind of felt like I had to write it because I suppose I remember how I felt at 37 just about to turn 38 when I just felt like my life is over and I will never. I'll never be happy again and all of these things that I wanted are now like they're not going to happen

and there were times during that year where I would like I just felt like I wanted to lie down on the floor and never get up I don't know I suppose I wrote the book that I wanted or I needed to read at that point and it was for every woman

who's gone through or going through something similar that I would hope that this book would be that beacon of like of hope And I suppose now success looks like writing a book that I really hope will be that kind of form of connection between me and the reader and between the reader and themselves ultimately. Louise O'Neill, I am so, so grateful for you. Oh, I love you so much.

I love you so much. Sorry, the readers or the listeners are like, oh my God, give over. We're like, I love you so much. Sorry, we kept it professional until the last moment. Louise O'Neill. Thank you so much. much for coming on how to fail. Thank you so much for having me. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts,

please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.