How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Marisa Abela - ‘You never expect to be told you have cancer at 23’

Episode Date: January 14, 2026

You’ll know Marisa Abela from HBO’s critically acclaimed hit Industry, where her portrayal of Yasmin - a brilliant, volatile young woman with ambition to burn, earned her a BAFTA. She also starred as Amy Winehouse in Sam Taylor-Johnson’s Back to Black and now returns for the hotly anticipated fourth season of Industry. In this conversation, Marisa spills the beans on her first audition for Industry, why her acting is inspired by The Real Housewives (yes, really) and what we can expect from the new season. We also reflect on her troubled teenage years - and how she was ‘a terror’ to live with, as well as her shock diagnosis with thyroid cancer at the age of 23. Through the subsequent intensive surgery and recovery process, Marisa learned the importance of women advocating for themselves and their own bodies in a culture where women’s health is often overlooked and under-researched. Still just 29, Marisa is remarkably self-aware and wise beyond her years. As an Industry superfan myself, I adored chatting to her and I hope you love the episode too. If you do, please rate, review and hit the follow button! ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 03:15 Drama School and Early Failures 04:23 Navigating Pressure 07:33 Teenage Struggles 27:13 Health Crisis in 2020 29:30 Diagnosis 30:30 Surgery and Recovery During the Pandemic 32:01 The Impact on Body Image 35:36 Advocating for Women's Health 38:45 Support and Love 40:32 Getting Married! 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: At a certain point, the regret of not doing a thing is worse than the fear of rejection. I really do believe that your body has a way of telling you that something's actually wrong and we should listen to it. All of the good things and all of the bad things are what make you, you - and without all of the bad things, I wouldn’t be who I am 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Industry airs on BBC One on 12 January and will be on iPlayer. In the US it airs on HBO on 11 January. Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Jessie Ware - reflects on motherhood, ambition and how losing control ultimately taught her to redefine success swap.fm/l/8cUuwGs4vc7tAXiPcDab Letitia Wright - on bullying, rejection and the power of faith on her journey from self-doubt to global success swap.fm/l/orHGF9VMU6s1FOH3bupc Ella Purnell - on growing up in the industry, perfectionism and anxiety. Plus: learning to let go of self-criticism in order to survive and thrive swap.fm/l/8w1oCcVmNutX8qv83MbN 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Marisa answer live audience questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This month, we are partnering with Pink Lady Apples. Hello and welcome to How to Fail. This is the podcast that believes failure is not a verdict on your character, rather it's how you respond to it that counts. Before we get started on this conversation, please do remember to subscribe and follow so that you never miss a single episode. The truth is the first ever re-through of industry. Season one, I was so nervous.

I was cast last. What was slightly difficult about Back to Black was that there were paparazzi on set whilst we were filming. Went for the biopsy, got a phone call a couple weeks later saying it is cancer. It's an age-old story that January is the best time for new beginnings, a fresh start and new ideas. Now, it might be a cliche, but it's true that the Christmas break and New Year always get me reflecting on the previous 12 months. In 2026, though, I want to look forwards. It's time to bite the bullet. If you've got a dream to launch a new business, now's the time.

Whether it's a luxury cat hotel, yes please, a cheese shop, double yes, or starting your own clothing line, I reckon you should embrace those creative juices and go for it. Shopify agrees with this philosophy and is here to help make your dream a reality. Shopify is a platform that provides all the tools to easily build your. dream store. You can choose from hundreds of templates to customize your brand, use their built-in AI tools and create email and social campaigns. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your £1 per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.com.uk slash fail. Go to Shopify.com.com.uk slash fail. Here your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass, delivers a world-class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing. So there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink. and the tipping point, he's done 24 classes on how to find research and write stories that capture big ideas and it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or work out into a classroom with audio mode so you can listen to a masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at

masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15% of. off at masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. My guest today is an award-winning actor who booked the part that would change her life in her final year of drama school. That part was a role in a new ensemble show set against the feebrile backdrop of London's financial district. It followed the lives of a group of new graduate interns at a prestigious investment bank.

It was called Industry and it became a critically acclaimed smash hit for HBO and the BBC at the same time as making today's guest Marisa Abela a star. Abella's portrayal of Yasmin, a troubled, ambitious young woman with some serious daddy issues, won her plaudits and a leading actress BAFTA. It also caught the attention of some high-profile directors. She went on to star as Amy Winehouse

in the Sam Taylor Johnson directed Back to Black, and Stephen Soderberg cast her in the spy thriller Black Bag. Now Abela returns for the hotly anticipated fourth season of industry. Abela grew up near Brighton and won a drama scholarship to Rodin School. Her mother, Caroline, was an actor who encouraged her daughter to consider the same career after seeing her in a school play, age 13. Abela failed her first audition for Rada. so spent a gap year cleaning coral on a sustainability program in Fiji,

then re-auditioned and got in. Still only 29, she has racked up an impressive resume, but has never forgotten that earlier failure. And yet, as she says now, at a certain point, the regret of not doing a thing is worse than the fear of rejection. Marisa Abella. Welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for how to fail. having me, gosh, that's cool. I'm so delighted you're here. It's the first time I've mentioned coral cleaning in Fiji in an introduction. Oh my God, I know, it sounds so intense whenever I hear it back like that. My boyfriend at the time had gotten it. We both auditioned at the same time. We were both doing our A-levels at the same time. We both auditioned for drama school. He got in to Gilt Hall and I didn't get in to any of them. And I was so mortified and embarrassed that I hadn't gotten in, that I think I was just like

I have to leave the country because I was so ashamed I wanted to sort of make it seem, I think, like, oh well everything happens for a reason I'm going to go do this amazing thing so I chose the most extra thing I could possibly do and I remember sort of standing on the front of the ship

that takes you from mainland Fiji to like this little island that I was cleaning coral on and being like, what the her? I was like a good 12 hours ahead of all my friends and family. And I was like, uh-oh. But it was really fun. Well, what's the secret to cleaning coral?

I mean, literally, you're just sort of going around cleaning coral with a toothbrush. Wow. Because they overfish, so the fish can't clean the coral and the coral dies and all that. And then I came back and got obsessed with applying to drama school again, but, you know. And you got in? I got in. The New Yorker named industry, their best TV show of 2024. Yeah.

Whilst that's great, does it also put an element of pressure on? Do you feel like you can take fewer creative risks? Well, no, I don't feel like that. And I don't think any of us do. I think that's one of the magic things about the show is that like we're, it's quite sort of experimental in the sense that none of us are that vain or precious about our performances. It's pretty wild on set, which I love.

But I do think the only fear I have is that the reason people loved it so much is partly because they got to discover it for themselves and decide for themselves that this is something that's good. Like anything, I think when people are told something's great, then they start to be like, well, actually. You know what I mean? And we haven't had that much, well, actually, so the industry because of the way that it was. it started as a kind of cult favorite. So I just hope people still are able to feel that it's theirs. I think as a show as well, it does a great job of painting this portrayal of privilege, but also showing how pain can exist within that privilege.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And we were chatting before we started recording about our shared love of reality TV. My favourite subject. Thank goodness. I've actually saved the last two episodes of Beverly, of both. Beverly Hills and Salt Lake for my flight that I'm about to take because I'm like, that's four hours done.

You have a treat in store. Thank you. And this might sound like a facetious question, but I don't intend it to be at all. I feel that I can see the vernacular of the real hair size and below deck actually in industry. Yeah, yeah. Well, Mickey loves, one of the writers loves Bravo.

But also, I mean, sometimes Mickey will come up to me and be like, when we're working and be like, what franchise are you watching right now? I'd be like New Jersey and he's like, stop. Right, yeah, yeah. You're not getting what you need for your methods from New Jersey.

It's going like really Teresa. There's one scene in, I think it's season two with Kenny, played by Connor McNeil where he comes to collect Yasmin outside of a private equity meeting. And I'm like, I have a real go at him. And I've got my sort of finger in his face. It's quite gangster. And after that, Mickey came up to me and was like, stop with New Jersey.

That's hilarious. You know. It is funny because of these, I mean, for me at least, I get very affected by what I'm like reading, listening to, watching. So I have to be careful a little bit with housewives when I'm working. I mean, before we get derailed entirely because I could spend the entire podcast talking about this. No, please don't apologize. That was totally me. Let's get onto your failures.

Yeah. Because we were touching now on the idea of privilege on paper, not necessarily translating to one's soul. And your first failure is your failure to be an interesting teenager, which is brilliant. Yeah. When you were a teenager, you got this drama scholarship to a posh school, basically. And I just wonder if you could tell me what kind of teenager you were like

before we get onto whether you were interesting or not. Well, I was 11, obviously, when I got into, it's Rodin. I went to. And they kind of had, I guess, a kind of like outreach vibe at the time where they were going to local primary schools and trying to get local girls to apply for scholarships or bursaries at the school. And my mom and I decided that it would be a good thing for me to do. I was bright for my little school. But obviously it was a very expensive school. My mom was a single parent. She was working in a cool center at the time for my brother and me. So she couldn't have afford the tuition.

So it had to be that way. So I got in with this drama and dance scholarship anniversary. And I became so obsessed with the ways in which I was different to these girls and that my upbringing compared to theirs that I just rebelled so intensely. So I started school, my mom's pretty RP. My mom's an actress. She went to Central, so she has like kind of RP accent, received pronunciation. Like, you know, and I was kind of sounded like that when I went.

And then I went the opposite way. So I started like properly talking, like I didn't want to sound like these girls because I didn't naturally sound quite as posh as they did. So I went the other way, started hanging out with like a pretty, you know, like kids that like take a lot of drugs and stuff like that at the weekends when I instead of hanging out with these girls because they didn't fully accept me and my family for who we were and I you know stuff like they'd ever invited my mum to dinners that the mums went on but partly because my mom didn't have a partner and it was always the moms and dads that had dinners and partly because I don't know

maybe they thought it was the places that they went were too expensive stuff like that so it was I was mortified. You know, I remember they came up sometimes, once they came around to my, I invited people around to my house and they stood in my hallway and sort of held hands like this to see how, it was so funny

that only five of them could go from the first, from one side of the house to the other. And I was so embarrassed that I became, and this is the origin, that's the origin story, and the reason I sort of go into it so intensely it's because I then became like a terror and I was not nice to be around at all. And when I say I failed to be an interesting teenager,

I guess what I mean is like I failed to be a kind of a nice teenager. I just didn't want to say that because I feel bad for my sort of teenage self. But also I think it wasn't interesting. I was just so interested in what people thought about me My first failure, I think, is just my teenage years. Those experiences really do go deep. Yeah.

And I had not entirely the same thing, but I grew up in the north of Ireland, didn't pick up the accent, went into secondary school, didn't fit in, found it very difficult just because I spoke the way that I do. And then I got a scholarship to a boarding school in England where because I sound the way that I do, I was accepted, but I still didn't fit in. And I read something that you said, which I really related to, that idea of code switching. Yeah. Like you become very used to adopting one persona and one way of speaking with one group and then switching. So looking back now, do you feel like you had any friends who understood you? I did. And this is like the kind of confusing thing about it. I'd say sort of like year seven, year eight, the first half of year nine were very, very difficult for me.

I was embarrassed of my home life and I was embarrassed of like there was a lot of shame and then everything changed when I sort of was about 14 and then I became kind of, I wouldn't say popular because I don't think anyone really other than my close few of friends

I think people, I had a bit of a reign of terror for a while on my school if I'm being honest like it's never cool to say that you were like not nice that as a teenager but like there was one girl in particular that had been quite intense about my house and my childhood, my sort of family for a while, and I just turned.

And when I turned and was like, and I didn't accept it anymore, to put it nicely, I became kind of like, I guess kind of that figure in the year. And I was, for one of another word, popular, but not in like the way that I would have loved to be. I was, yeah, I kind of ruled with an eye and fist a little bit. You were powerful. I was power. I became quite powerful. 14 to sort of 16, at least 17, those terrible years for anyone.

Yeah, I was, I, yeah. But you know what? I think this is, first of all, this is incredibly self-aware of you to understand this about yourself as a teenager when you haven't yet turned 30. I haven't. No, I haven't. And secondly, I think lots of people listening to this will either relate or find it incredibly helpful in terms of understanding the minds of their teenage children.

Because it sounds to me as you're expressing it that what you were doing was about survival. It was totally about survival. I felt like in order to not be like the weakest link in the herd, I had to become like the alpha. And it was an all-girls school, had to become like the alpha female. I was like, oh, I have to be the most something. Like, I can't just kind of get by. Like, if I want to survive and be successful in my environment,

I need to completely excel at whatever it is I'm trying to do. And that definitely still exists within me that feeling. But I wish that, like, I had been able to just sort of sit back and relax a bit more. But it served me well. I then, as that person was like, well, I think I started from that age manifesting without realizing it to thinking, you know, well, why not, why can't I, why wouldn't I get into Rada? People were giving me the numbers, you know, 4,000, 5,000 people apply and 20 people get in. And I was like, well, so 20 people get in. And I think that you have to have that mindset a little bit as an actor because otherwise the numbers are to.

too terrifying. Why would anyone do it? No matter what people say, you have to believe in some way that you can be the person to get that job. Fascinating. I relate to that in terms of being a writer of books. Right, right, right. A friend of mine said, you know, people who write books and particularly novels have to be at some level a monstrous narcissist. Exactly, yeah. Because you have to believe that it's worth you spending all of this time away from your family, away from your friends, to write this thing that you think other people need to read. Yeah, exactly. I've gone. Yeah. And at the same time, I feel you and I

are probably both riven with insecurities because we're so sensitive about how people then respond to what we put out in the world. Totally. So it's this really interesting mix. What were you like at home, though? Also a terror. Were you? Yeah. Have you spoken to your mum about it since? Yes. I mean, lots. It's difficult because my mum and I are so close. now. My mum's like, you know, one of the most important people in my life and she means everything to me. And I also now know that she is so strong and so amazing and brought me up with such sort of like tenderness and love, but also like ferocity is, you know, a single mother with two children under four at the beginning and just like made it work. but there was a time where the power, as you put it, became kind of like,

I was then searching for the like boundary of this power. Like when is someone going to tell me to stop? And it wasn't going to be my mum. That's just not who she is as a person. It was a friend of mine in the end. I think that was the most important lesson that I learned. I ended up snapping at one of my best friends and she didn't take it. She sort of walked away from me for a while.

And that broke my heart. Because my mom is one of those people that was like, I love you unconditionally. Unfortunately, I love you unconditionally. I don't know what you want me to say. And it was like I needed some conditions, some boundaries. And this friend of mine, obviously, it wasn't for my benefit. It was for hers, but had a boundary.

She was like, no. And that changed things. me. I was like, okay, that's a line. I can't talk to my friends like that. I probably shouldn't talk to my mum like that, actually. You know what I mean? And my mom also had me at 40, so, and I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying this. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, no, she's, but I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying this. We were probably going through her menopause and my first periods at the same time. So it was a, it wasn't just me. Like, we were both pretty fiery. You mentioned that your mom raised you and your brother from when you were four, I think.

Yeah. And your parents got divorced. So was your dad on the scene and able to give boundaries? He was on the scene. I saw him every weekend. But when I was 14, my dad moved to Manchester. Okay. So I think that probably had something also to do with the like shift in,

I just maybe I should shout louder and then like. He'll be able to hear me in Manchester. You're going to be all the way over there. It's so silly because we were very close, but I, the only person I probably never really shouted at, he might say this isn't true, but it is. The only person I've never really lost my temper at probably is my dad. And we're very close now. But I think when my dad left, I just became like, oh, well, now I can do sort of whatever I want. And maybe he'll come back to tell me off, which wouldn't be. a bad thing, but also if he doesn't, then he doesn't, and I can just do whatever I want. It was, yeah, it was, you could not pay me to go back to being 14. I'm sure most people would say that, but I was a very, I was a very sort of angry teenager. Can you still access that teenage power sometimes when you need to for a role? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think.

anger is something that I go to quite often in my work. And actually I think it's important for me to really interrogate when a character would lose their temper. Because I think I have a shorter fuse maybe than most of the characters that I play, except for Yasmin. I was about to say, wow. No, no, no. I don't get that angry anymore, but it's definitely this, it's something that I have the capacity for, for sure.

Yeah, and you know how it feels. Is sadness where you went with Amy Winehouse? Is that something that you saw in her? Yeah, for sure. Sadness is something that I'm getting better at as an actor now. I actually think even since that's like to flag, unfortunately, but that's how this life works as well. but sadness is an interesting one because it can be a passive emotion.

I think that's why I found it quite difficult. I used to find it very hard at drama school. The activation in sadness that makes it interesting to watch is the thing that is really like a technically brilliant thing because I think for me, sadness shuts me down and I go numb. And that is not, you know, if you're sort of in first circle and you're not sharing anything with an audience, it's not particularly interesting to watch. So finding, like, the activity and sadness has been, you know, a kind of, like, recent exploration for me as an actor.

And it's, Back to Black was really useful for it. My final question on this failure is you talked about that experience at Roe's. where you became fixated on what other people were thinking of you and how to control that. Yeah. Now that you are an actor who's taken on such high profile material and everyone had an opinion about industry, everyone had an opinion about Amy Winehouse. How do you handle how you're perceived on a wider scale? Do you have good boundaries for yourself?

No, unfortunately not really. It's funny, people, I would never say that I'm like a people pleaser. I don't think I am because my issue has never really been whether people like me as a person. Because I know, you know, who I am and the people that I love do. But as an actor, you know, the ultimate goal is people saying, I love your work. So when people don't, it's incredibly hard.

I don't know how people don't find that hard. The sadness that comes with people not enjoying something that you've created is devastating. And I don't think it ever won't be. I don't know. What do you think? I love that you said that. I totally relate. I mean, it's not on the level that you experience it at, obviously.

Yeah. But a commitment to creating something and a commitment to meaning. meaningful conversation and communication at its fundamental. It all comes from my desire to connect. Yeah, yeah. And if I feel like I haven't connected in the way that brings enlightenment or illumination or joy, then that is so upsetting. Yeah.

If someone, and sometimes it feels like someone's willfully misinterpreting. Right. But I've come to the conclusion that it's better to connect on any level, even if someone hates a book I write, it's better to have elicited that response than none at all. Yeah. Yeah. Because at least they're feeling something.

Totally. So that's, I think, my own tactic. And I don't read reviews anymore. I'm actually so proud of myself for not reading. Yeah. Even though I know of the existence of negative reviews, I refuse to read them because I refuse to surrender that power. I completely agree.

What was slightly difficult about Back to Black was that they were paparazzi on set. whilst we were filming. So the feedback to that was immediate and I had to go back into work the next day and carry on filming even though, you know, pictures were coming out day by day and there was a negative reaction to it online.

That was incredibly difficult and sort of took me into a kind of trance-like state, I think, about the like, okay, I just got to keep going, keep going. And I don't, you know, similar to people that, you know, if you're doing a play and it's getting terrible reviews and you've got to go in every night

and keep doing that play that you know people in the audience have read a terrible so they're coming in with a kind of bias or it's just so hard. I think that's harder. Yeah. And the cruel irony of you playing

this woman hounded by a culture that refused to allow themselves to understand her and then you're experiencing that in real time. Yeah, totally. It must have been so difficult and well done for getting through it. It was so difficult. And what was funny was that

in the press for it afterwards, people were like, a lot of the stuff was about how far we've come as a culture from that point. And of course, like, we have. But the truth is, it was very difficult for me to not get angry, actually, in those moments sometimes and think,

kidding me. Like, it was really hard to, I mean, the paparazzi as well. mostly men and they'd get right up in my face and say things to me like almost heckling me while I was on set. It was like violent and it was horrible and I felt like I wasn't really, didn't want to talk about at the time because I understand obviously it paled in comparison to everything that Amy went through but at the same time I was like guys can you not see the irony of this situation and how how horrible it is that you're doing this to me when this is what we're sort of

making this story about. It's taken me a while to be proud of that film and to be proud of my work in it, but I am now partly for just doing it whilst that was all happening. I do think bravery is an incredibly important, you know, skill. I don't know if I would call it like an innate gift. I don't think it is really, but a skill that an actor has to learn and like I learned it like by fire on that job. I used to get so stressed planning holidays. Time away is so valuable, and I'd panic about choosing the wrong destination, getting lost on public transport, or feeling like I'd miss the heart of the place entirely.

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Oh, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested. made easy. On. Carvana. Pick up these may apply. From the creative team behind the Brutalist and starring Academy Award nominee Amanda Seifred in a career best performance, Searchlight Pictures presents The Testament of Anne Lee. With rave reviews from the Venice Film Festival, this bold and magnetic musical epic tells the story inspired by a true legend, Anne Lee, founder of the radical religious movement, The Shakers, the Testament of Anne Lee, exclusive Toronto engagement January 16th in theaters everywhere January 23rd. Well, let's move on to your second failure and I'm sorry because it's not an upbeat shift in tempo.

But this is such an important one and I really admire the way that you phrased it. As you put it, failure to use my health crisis as a way to become a better person. Now, take us back to 2020 when you weren't feeling well. What happened? So I thought I had COVID. I probably did have COVID, to be honest, but I just wasn't getting better. And my memory was slightly foggy

and I couldn't really get out of bed and I was putting on lots of weight and I wasn't sure what was happening. So I called NHS 101, which was obviously a bit of a nightmare at that time anyway. And I remember them asking me for my phone number on the phone. and I couldn't remember it and I burst into tears and I said this is part of the problem I can't remember anything I don't know what's going on I've got this intense brain frog and the problem is that

you know brain fog was a symptom of COVID and all that so everyone was like oh you'll probably fine whatever but this nice lady on an h.m. was like I'm going to give you an emergency referral to Paddington and a doctor will just see you and you'll be fine so I went to queen Mary hospital and they were feeling around and they were like, you do have a swollen lymph node. They said in your neck, but it's probably because you're fighting off a virus. Come back in a couple weeks if it's still there.

And I went home and I felt it and I thought, my God, like that is massive. What is going on? And then so I booked a private ultrasound. It was like 50 quid. I was like, yeah, whatever, I'm going to do it. went to yeah went to

some private ultrasound clinic was still to send me texts actually and the guy did an ultrasound on my neck and I could just feel he kind of froze up and you know there are all these different classifications of essentially tumours and this one

was like it was pretty clear that it was not a great one even just by the ultrasound gave me a referral to go back onto the NHS to have a biopsy. And that's what I did. By that point, I decided to go back to Brighton to stay with my mum, who's still living in my childhood home at the time.

And so I could do everything there because it was locked down and all that kind of stuff. Went for the biopsy, got a phone call a couple weeks later, saying it is cancer. And it was, it was like weirdly like a happy and sad phone call at the same time because he's like, it is cancer. But I'm an oncologist and my job is 10. people they have cancer like every day and if I could choose to tell them that they had any cancer

it would be this one and I was like oh oh it could then which was it was so weird and obviously you never expect to get to be told that you have cancer at 23 and no matter how nights the cancer is or whatever and it was on my thyroid and I was aware um that that was potentially going to like cause hormonal issues throughout my life then and that was very scary just the aftermath of the whole thing was scary to me. I had to have a total thyroidectomy and I think like 19 lymph nodes removed from the side of my neck so I don't have a working I don't have a thyroid anymore it was an eight hour surgery and it was in the middle of COVID so I had to go in on my own no one could come with me for most of my appointments as well but for my surgery I was on my own and I was

put in the burns unit for recovery because there weren't enough beds in the ICU. So it was a really, 2020 was bleak for me. That's so traumatic. Yeah, yeah. It was traumatic, but I knew I was ill. I could tell something was really wrong. And then I just switched into like get it out, get it out mode. And am I going to be able to speak again?

That was the scariest thing because, you know, had to go through a lot of nerves to get to my thyroid. And one of the things was, you know, I had to sign a form that said if they cut the nerve that's attached to my vocal, my voice box, I'm not going to, you know, sue them or whatever. So I remember when I woke up, the first thing I did was going, ma, because I just wanted to make sure I could talk. Yeah. And I was like, I remember saying to the doctor, I know, I know I've signed this, but please, If it looks dodgy and you think you're going to have to, don't wake me up and we'll figure out another way.

I'll do, you know, you don't have to do chemo or anything for that kind of thing. But I was like, I'll do whatever. Just don't go through. So there were, it was bleak, but, you know, it's everything else that comes with it. That's, I was thinking about like, would I be able to be an actor? Would I be able to speak? Will anyone employ me with a big scar on my net? You know, you have all these vanity things as well.

It was the first time at 23, I thought really about, am I going to want to have children and does this affect that? And like, at the time, I went, this is going to change who I am as a person. And I am going to become a saint, I think. I think that's the right thing to do. And obviously I didn't. And you kind of don't change at all. I mean, maybe people do.

and maybe if you have a slightly closer brush with your mortality rather than just like your sort of state of perfection as a healthy young person then it does affect you more but it didn't you know it didn't really affect my I really thought I was going to come out on the other side and be like so much better and so much wiser and so much more like grateful to just be alive and grateful for my body and grateful for and it you know that probably lasted about

about six months it's funny when you hearing you talk about that because in a way you were experiencing this through COVID and for many of us the pandemic was a bit like that too there were all of these conversations

about how everything would change forever and actually we've sort of forgotten about it but maybe you have to kind of forget to carry on living as a flawed human I completely agree what are you going to do for the rest of your life sort of think of yourself as like a glass thing or or also you know not be human part of being human is being you know slightly having like a

tiny little sprinkling of all of the sinfulness because that is what it is and that all of the good things are the things that make you you and all of the bad things are the things that make you you and to lose all of the bad things i mean i certainly wouldn't be who i am has it changed how you feel about your body? I mean, that was kind of one of the main things I hoped it would do. Not that, like, I've had, you know, I have a particularly terrible relationship with my body or anything, but, like, I'm hard on myself. Like, I think all of us are, especially as an actor, I have to see myself all the time.

And it has changed my relationship to my body and the fact that, like, my number one thing now is that I'm healthy. and I am, you know, when I think about food and stuff like that, it's about, like, healthy choices, not just sort of skinny choices for once, one of a better word, but it hasn't quite done enough in a sense that, like, of course, I'm still slightly vain and I want to look good, and it's a difficult one because the thyroid is one of the hormones that you need to stay, your metabolism to be working. So it's been a lot more difficult for me since the illness and the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the aftermath of it to stay fit. At the beginning, I was like, I'm going to have peace with my body now.

And what's difficult is that obviously now I'm like, actually I have to sort of work harder to maintain a sort of healthy physique. Yeah, you want to be a sort of perfect person afterwards. And it's so stupid, you know, as if. What's it taught you about instinct, this experience? I mean, it taught me so much about. about women's health. I'll say that.

It's so much about the way that we are told constantly, you're probably fine. It's probably normal. I just would say to any women, especially a young woman because you're told that, like, you're perfect as a young woman and everything starts to get tricky when you get older. But if you think something's wrong,

insist on the fact that something's wrong. And then, you know, if you turn out to be wrong, sorry. Yes, what's the worst that can happen? What's the worst that could happen? Don't let anyone bully you into thinking that it's normal or it's going to work itself out in time or it's going to whatever. I think that we have, you know, a month as women where things go up and down

and round and round and your body and your mind and everything is just telling you all the time. We have about a week in the month where we're like pretty normal. Yeah. So of course it's normal to think that something that's abnormal is normal, but there's a difference. And when something shifts slightly and you think, I don't know actually if this is, just follow that instinct.

I really do believe that like your body has a way of telling you that something's actually wrong and like listen to it. I'm so struck by what you say there that women, for ones of a better word, have kind of been gaslit by a predominantly male medical profession for so many centuries. And, you know, I went through a lot of fertility treatment and that was certainly my experience was that I was overwhelmingly treated by male clinicians

who have never had a period, let alone understand what a miscarriage is. And so what advice would you give to anyone who is struggling to get their voice heard? Women's health, for me, seems to be sort of, private completely. Like it is the only thing on the NHS really where you can't, it's very difficult to get a gynecological appointment. And so it seems like a privilege to care about your health as a woman, which is insane. I mean, you're not alone and you're not crazy for thinking that like people aren't listening to you and that it's very difficult to get seen. Look up. These are my

symptoms. Who's best for me to see? What kind of doctor should I be seeing? Or, what should I say when I go in? Yes. Be going in armed with information because like no one's going to, no one's going to help you as much as you can sort of help yourself. Find out what to say and how to say it. Yeah. Because sometimes it's such an intimidating thing.

And we often the way that we've been raised is to revere medical professionals and defer to them. And so often they are amazing and they are lifesaving and they are extraordinary. But it makes it quite nerve-wracking. to know how to advocate for yourself. For sure. At MedCan, we know that life's greatest moments are built on a foundation of good health,

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This week on lipstick on the rim, we sat down with the one and only Rachel Zoe. And wow, this episode is a ride. We talked about everything. Motherhood, divorce, finding herself again, joining real housewives literally overnight. And then she said this. Can I tell you a true story? In COVID, in the darkness of COVID, I had a cat eye every single day where nobody's saw me, not one soul. And when I had COVID, not even my ex-husband saw me or my children. And you know what I did? I went in to my bathroom. I did a black liquid liner put on lashes, black liner in the water line, a full lip, did my hair and sat in my bed. And that is what I did. And I looked at myself and I said, you are not a well person. I said, are you fucking okay?

You have 104 fever. You are like, you are like contagion right now. If you love fashion, beauty or bravo, this Rachel Zoe episode is a must. It's out now. You recently got married. I did.

Congratulations. And you've been with your husband for many years. Yeah. Was he with you through this? He was. Yeah. That must have been an immense help. It was an immense help.

And it was, it was, I, you know, It was kind of one of the moments where I knew that this was the person I wanted to be with forever. I think it's equally as important to have someone that supports you as when you're down. I don't think it's like just when someone's good at when things are bad. Jamie is great at both. He's there on like a red carpet with me when I'm really proud of my work and is like the number one person that's always like, look how great she is. but also when things aren't good he is right there and he looks after me and he is like the most supportive person in every way and I'm so lucky that I you know and he was in my year at Radha so if I'd have gotten in the year before oh you see the coral the coral was meant to be you know we got together although we went to drama school together we got together in our final year which was 2019 so I was

So 2020 was only a year into our relationship. Like I said, I had to go into the hospital on my own and stuff. But when I was let out a couple days later, I really had a pretty gnarly scar. And it was all away from one side of my neck to the top of my ear, the other side. And it was stapled and it was bloody and it was intense. And he was just like, you look so beautiful. I know. I'm so happy for you.

So deserve that. Yeah, he was great. 2019 was a big year then. So, Jamie, and you also got your part in industry. Yeah. And is this right that two days after your final treatment for thyroid cancer, the first episode of industry aired? Yeah.

So presumably that stage, you still have that gnarly scar. Oh, God. Yeah, I looked crazy. And I was in, I mean, you can't really see it because it was COVID. Thank God in a way for my sake. but like all of the press for industry season one was over Zoom and in everything I've got a high neck on like a sort of some kind of collared shirt with a big bow or something because I have this big scar on my neck and all of the first photo shoots that I did at that time

I had this big scar and it was a really awkward conversation with the makeup artists because you know do you want me to cover it or do you want to leave it now I leave it but it's also mostly healed now at the time it was like a pretty fresh scar. So yes, I wanted to cover it, but also putting makeup on it was pretty intense for everyone. So that was just a really weird. And I was getting all these messages. I started getting followers on Instagram for the first time ever. But I was lying at home, like taking medicine for the first time about something, you know. And it was such, I remember getting my first ever like approval for a photo shoot I did whilst I was in hospital. Like having just woke up, I looked

my phone and there was this, I did this first look at Marisa Rubella for Vogue and I had to like approve these photos and I was lying in hospital with like tubes sort of coming out with me during COVID in the Burns unit. Yeah, that's what they'll do. That is crazy. Yeah. Your final failure is about industry but I wonder before we get into the detail on that. Yeah.

this idea of your body being seen in one way, whether it's a photo shoot for Vogue, or in industry, because so much of that first season was exploring Yasme's sensuality. And then certain tabloids picked up on that. And I imagine it felt very objectifying. Yeah. What an extraordinary disconnect that must have been for you. It really was. But at the same time, I do think that, weirdly,

that going through that experience did actually help in terms of what we were talking about before with the understanding that, like, perception versus reality is so stupid. And, like, I sort of, I really didn't care about what people were saying about that. It was so, it was so obvious to me that it had no meaning. And at the time, of course, I was so, just, grateful that everything went well and that I was healthy and that I was with my family and that

and that was that was the truth of the time so it was great that people were enjoying the show it was whatever that people thought it you know there was one there was one sort of daily mail a thing I think it was like we didn't recognize you with your clothes on there was one thing about that with me and I oh for God's sake but also I really didn't care and also I did not judge my body at all When I watched it, I didn't think, oh, I wish I looked like that. I wasn't vain at all. At that time, I was really just like, good for me. Yeah.

You know what I mean? So, yeah, I guess, I guess if it was ever going to happen, it happened at the right time for me. Firstly, I got to do it in privacy because everyone was locked down. So although the hospital appointments were horrible, as someone's, that otherwise my job is in the public eye, I didn't have to experience. I didn't have to experience that. Your final failure I mentioned that

is your failure to make a good impression on your first ever day in industry. What happened? The truth is the first ever re-through of industry, season one, I was so, like, I was so nervous. I was cast last. Everyone else had done a chemistry day where they all got together.

And the girl that had been had maybe was going to be Yasmin at that point on that chemistry day, they were like, no. Wow. Brutal. I don't know if I could say now. But there were other people too. There were two or three Roberts, two,

I think the only person that there was one of was Harper. And I think there were two or three Yasmin's, but I was not one of them. So I hadn't met anyone and everyone else knew each other. So of course I went into like overcompensation mode and I I think I had a bit of sort of like delayed trauma from everything we're speaking about with Rodin because Yasmin is like a very

privileged girl and I was like what would she wear? Oh my gosh. Oh yeah you can just imagine. And I was not I was a student. I obviously was going to start earning money. bit with industry but I did I was like most of my clothes were like I was a had been at Rada for three years I was in like leotards and leggings and flowy skirts and whatever so I went to westfield because I lived in shepherd's bush at the time and I went straight to louis Vuitton and I bought a pair of

these trainers these like massive hype beastie trainers like not for someone Not, I don't know who they were for, but they weren't for me. And I was like, these are perfect. I spent the remainder of my student loan, because I was still at a time, and I hadn't been started getting paid yet for industry, when my student loan on these trainers, you know, like 600 quid or something, it was insane. And I went to, and I was like, they're perfect, right? And even my flatmates were like, yeah.

So then I wore them with these like little jeans and like a, a, a jumper and I went in and everyone without fail when they said hello to me did like a double take on my train is everyone hey and there was just this little look down at my feet and I started getting more and more and more mortified so then on the train I was and I was sitting with the other castes of industry I was googling places in cardiff that I could like an office in cardiff where maybe I could go and get like a ballet pump or something like I was so embarrassed and I think I thought, okay, if I tell people that I've got to go and get a lem sip in town, then I can go to the office and wear ballet pumps and maybe no one will have, no one will say.

And I was so overthinking it that when I was on the train, I wasn't really talking to anyone. I wasn't like making friends with anyone. And later, Harry Lordsey was like, I thought you were a real, like, you know. Can I say bitch? You can swear. Okay. I thought you were a real bitch because I just sat there in silence and I was just like noddling along. He was like, I just thought you were really, like, sussing us out and taking us in. And I was like, wow, she's perfect casting for Yasmin.

I really, I was Googling where I could get a normal pair of shoes for. You're so sweet. So, wait, did you get a normal pair of shoes? No, because everyone had seen them already. Well, that's even more embarrassing if everyone knows how much I care. So then I had to try and front it out. You quite rightly won a BAFTA for your portrayal of Yasmin. Crazy, yeah.

What was it like? It was insane. Industry hadn't been nominated for anything else at the BAFTAs. It was the only thing we were all there for. Other things were sort of sweeping up. I did not expect to win at all. And it was a very last award. And I was genuinely so shocked, but so happy, so proud, so happy for the whole show.

What did your mother say to you? I FaceTimed my mum when I came off stage. and it's live but it's got a bit of a delay so they hadn't seen it yet and she went oh gosh what is this and then I like showed her the baptist and she just like burst into tears

and my mom is so incredibly proud of me you know I fought her for a long time on whether or not I should be an actor we were actually on an open day at UCL when we walked past Gower Street which is where Rada is and my mum went in and got a flyer for me And I was like, Mom, it was so embarrassing.

Like, I, you know, I can go to UCLA. I'm a smart person. But my mom knew that it was a thing that really lit me up. And she always gave me the confidence that I could do it. And I also think she wanted me to know that just because she had to work sometimes in a call center or in other jobs, it didn't mean that she was a failure as an actor. That's what I, you know, I'm most grateful to her for. for instilling, you know, not only the love of this industry and of the work in me, but also the faith that it's all going to be okay.

And the knowledge that, like, if you get to do what you love, no matter how often you get to do it or what it is that you're getting to do, like, you're not a failure, you know? What an amazing note to end on. We're so grateful to your mother too, because without her persistence, we wouldn't all have the joy of seeing you bring the truth of humanity to our screens and you're only just getting started

and I'm so excited about what the rest of your career will hold but if we can end on a note for the industry fans because I haven't asked you about season four but I know also you can't really tell us so I'm just going to ask you to give me three words that sum up Yasmin's journey in season four no pressure I'll do it like in order of what it is in this season.

So I would say it starts with support. The middle is clock on. Like that sort of switch that Yasmin gets in her eye, you know. Clock on can be a word. So support clock on and then domination. Oh my gosh. Yes. Domination.

We're leaning into the teenage power. Right, and Marisa Rebeller again. Marissa, I've absolutely loved this conversation. You're such an old soul. It's been completely fascinating. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening and watching.

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