How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Mark Ronson - The Stories Behind ‘Uptown Funk,’ Amy Winehouse & ‘I’m Just Ken’

Starting point is 00:00:00 Uptown Funk came out of a jam with Bruno. And actually it kind of was like a definitely linked to a, there's a failure origin story. And she was like, and can you just write a Ken song? Like, just meaning like maybe in the credits we'll have a song about Ken. And so I came up with the idea for I'm just Ken. We met that day and then literally wrote

Starting point is 00:00:27 Back to Black that night. Hello and welcome to How to Fail. I am the creator and host Elizabeth Day, and this is the podcast where we believe that learning how to fail actually means learning how to succeed better. Okay, a breaking news because I absolutely have to tell you about my new TV obsession, the Real Housewives of London, streaming from the 18th of August only on Hey You. It's going to be the talk of the summer. Trust me. You are not going to want to miss it. I have seen the trailer, I've got the BTS Goss, and let me tell you, if you're already a superfan like me or a newbie, prepare to be totally hooked. You probably already know that I love the Real Housewise franchise.

Starting point is 00:01:16 My favourites are Atlanta, an old-school New York, thanks so much for asking. And the Real Housewives of London is even more special, as it's HAU's first original series streaming every week. Why wait when you could join me and everyone else talking about it now? Sign up for Hey You now to start watching the Real Housewives of London and see the drama unfold. A subscription is required and you'll need to be 18 plus. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace,

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Starting point is 00:02:26 Head to Squarespace.com slash fail 10 for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code fail 10, that's fail 10, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. My guest today is someone who, without you even knowing it, has probably been responsible for the soundtrack of your last 20 years. Mark Ronson is a globally celebrated DJ, a nine-time Grammy-winning producer and songwriter. who also scooped an Academy Award for his work on the Barbie movie. Because yes, it really was Mark Ronson, who co-wrote and produced I'm Just Ken.

Starting point is 00:03:04 Throughout his stellar career, Ronson has worked with everyone from Lady Gaga to Duran Duran, Miley Cyrus and Sir Paul McCartney. He produced Amy Winehouse's legendary 2006 Back to Black album, and his own 2014 single, Uptown Funk featuring Bruno Mars, is one of the biggest selling songs of all time. Ronson was born in London and after his parents' divorce moved to New York City at the age of five with his mother and stepfather. Music was always in his blood. Ronson's father, an entrepreneur,

Starting point is 00:03:38 was a music obsessive and his stepfather is the foreigner guitarist Mick Jones, who wrote, I want to know what love is for Ronson's mother Anne. Ronson himself had an internship at Rolling Stone magazine at the age of 12, manning the phones before his voice. had broken and in between prepping for his bar mitzvah. He began DJing in earnest while a student at New York University, which eventually led him production, experiences recounted in his new memoir, Night People. In the book, he describes the hit of selecting a song to play at his mother's second wedding. The first time you feel this sensation, nothing compares, Ronson writes. You're giving the room a feeling they didn't even know.

Starting point is 00:04:24 know they needed. Oh, how I loved that control. Mark Bronson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah. Tell me about that control and what it felt like. Yes. For me, the control, you know, I grew up in this pretty, you know, I love my parents and I say in the book, they're good people, but they were not good together. And I had a pretty turbulent upbringing from the ages of zero to five and the house was it was a lot of fun at night and in the day it was not so much fun there was something about the DJ booth just like almost

Starting point is 00:05:05 physically it was this one-man command center where I was just the captain nobody can get to me this is my thing so that that sense of control you know I mean it makes me feel it sound like the evil, like, villain in like a Bond movie or maybe more like an Austin Powers film, but, like, you know, I'm controlling all of you with my music and selections. It wasn't, but there were, there was this thing that, like, nobody can touch me in here and the worries and the unease of the outside world does not affect me here. You have this amazing phrase in your book about you getting very good at walking on eggshells, but inevitably one would crack.

Starting point is 00:05:50 Yeah. So you are so loving about your family in the book, and I want to make that clear from the outset. And the chaos, such as it was, was kind of a party chaos. Is that right? There was a party chaos, and then there was the hangovers the next day. There were moods. And I have such a great relationship with my parents now, and this book isn't that kind of book where I'm throwing anyone under the bus. And they were wonderful, loving parents to us at that age.

Starting point is 00:06:20 were really young and they were partying and you know that's why I learned and I think I had this attraction tonight from really early on because at night grown-ups were like buzzy and excited and they wanted to know what you were into and all these things stumbling out into the you know my parents house in the middle of the night and there 50 people there hanging out and then the daytime the mood was always very heavy and kind of hanging and you I remember even as an early kid like being able to figure out like what moods he and what moods she in? Like, do I, am I going to be careful? Am I going to maybe take the long way around the kitchen and just like play it safe? So yes, I do think that

Starting point is 00:07:01 as a young kid, I remember being very, very sensitive to like the moods of adults because I was like, you know, looking out for myself. Do you think that makes you particularly gifted now at dealing with artists who might occasionally be a moment? emotionally fraught or anxious? I absolutely think that. And I think that being so attuned. And listen, I'm not saying I had some like supernatural talent for empathy, but I think from such an early age being so in tune with that,

Starting point is 00:07:38 I think even made me probably a pretty good DJ because it's like as a DJ you're trying to read the room. You're walking into a room. You're looking at 300 people, most of whom you've never seen in your life. And you're like, how am I going to get these people? open like what mood what's the first song so I think there's that and then I think absolutely dealing with superstars it doesn't even have to be a superstar but incredibly talented artists we all know sometimes the more talented the more

Starting point is 00:08:05 complicated you know so dealing with these people and as a producer your job is to just make them feel as safe and as vulnerable as possible so I think yeah absolutely and I think you know working with people who who write songs in this place of, like, real heartbreak and heartache, like, whether it's Amy Winehouse or Yeba or whoever, like, there's a moment at which you can't make them sing that song one more time that might be just the time that, like, emotionally they crack. You're always navigating this thing. So I think absolutely, like, being in tune with people's emotions is something that's benefited me much later in my life. You made a conscious decision not to

Starting point is 00:08:50 to write about Amy Winehouse or Lady Gaga and to set this book in a very specific period of time. Why was that? I hope there might be a time when I write about the later years and working with Amy and other experiences that I've had. But I really felt certain about making this just within the 90s because I wanted to celebrate DJing and I wanted to celebrate the kind of DJing,

Starting point is 00:09:17 like not standing superstar DJ, DJ standing. on a stage at a festival with 10,000 people, but like a gigging DJ, like five nights a week, the ins and outs of that, the highs and the super lows of like, you're just in the club by yourself at the end of the night as the lights come on most nights. So I just, I knew I wanted to be out about this era.

Starting point is 00:09:39 And then as I started to get into it, I was like, what was it that brought us all together, these like night people? So a little bit more of a, you know, without stepping out of my pay grade, a psychological examination of what brought all these people together at night. But there's a difference between people who enjoy a night out and then night people and night people are the kind that just like they live for the night,

Starting point is 00:10:05 whether it's dance, to go out, it can be drugs, it can be a lot of things, but what was it that brought us all together? And for anyone who has yet to read it, what was your conclusion? God, that's really a good question. Did I come to a conclusion? I think it was all different reasons. You know, there were some people that went out because they loved the music. There were people that went out to hook up.

Starting point is 00:10:30 There were people that just almost a little damage, like people that day was just a bit too harsh. Like maybe you were running from something in your reality. Maybe you didn't think that you lived up to society's expectations or your family's expectations. And Knight provided this armor for a lot of people. And maybe sometimes it was the drinks, drinking and drugs that also helped like a little bit of that as well. The armor, of course, we know it does.

Starting point is 00:10:57 You also talk about when you experimented with heroin and met David Blaine shortly afterwards. Yeah. You know, I tried to keep it as diaristic as possible like I'm writing in that era, even though I didn't keep a diary I wish that I had. I had to interview like 200 people to get all these stories straight for the book. But yeah, there were amazing people in that time that went on to be superstars. So even when I first see Beyonce in the club for the first time, as ridiculous as it sounds, I'm like, this girl named Beyonce who sings in Destiny's Child was there hanging out. And David Blaine and there were these people just at the beginning of their career in that time in New York in the 90s.

Starting point is 00:11:37 And David Blaine would just be in the club doing tricks. Like that's kind of how everybody got to know him. He would just come up to you and go, like, hey, want to see some magic? And, you know, that's kind of how he made his name. I remember being on heroin. I didn't, I'd never done heroin. I sort of did it by accident. But the way that I was so cavalier about taking drugs, it probably wasn't a surprise.

Starting point is 00:12:02 I snorted something that somebody put in front of me. I'm not saying I'm especially proud of it. But yes, and I was stumbling through this club called The Tunnel. And I was just having this terrible. sort of like meltdown, outer body experience. And then David Blaine just came up and was like, hey, want to see some magic? And I was just like, already on another dimension, he bit a coin in half, spit it into himself, made it reappear. And to the point where I just really had no idea what was actually really happening anymore. What was Blaine and what was the heroin?

Starting point is 00:12:38 Yeah, exactly. Before we get on to your failures, I want to ask if you're still a night person, You're now the father of two young girls. So has your knight personhood served you well? It's so funny, you know, I met my wife, Grace, during COVID. So we really had this relationship in the way that it started. Of course, she knew that I had been a DJ, but the way that we were first together. And she didn't see any of that side.

Starting point is 00:13:06 I mean, never saw me DJ even for the first few years. We were together. And then, you know, we have these. two amazing daughters. But as a result of the book, I've kind of gone back to DJing. Something about it just triggered, like, I want to go out and play vinyl again.

Starting point is 00:13:22 I want to play in some club, playing some underground places, just show up with records. So now I like come home at three in the morning. She's like, I can't, like, she's in a sweet way. I was like, I can't believe this book is like made you go back to a night person. Like, I married a DJ, didn't I?

Starting point is 00:13:39 I was like, sort of. But I definitely had left, most of that time behind, but it's no surprise the book has reopened a little bit of that. But I guess when you come back at 3am, you can do the feeds. Yeah, you can do the feeds and, you know, I don't need a lot of sleep. I'm pretty lucky, so I'm up at 6.30 anyway. Your first failure is, as you put it, the JZ approach disaster. Right.

Starting point is 00:14:09 Tell us this story. There's quite a few people in the book that start off as these characters that, you know, I like really hero worship like Q-Tip from a Tribal Quest, J-Z, and then as I, you know, kind of get a little further in my career, they start to be in the clubs and we start to almost, with Q-Tip, we became really good friends with Jay-Z, you know, he started to know my name, come to where I DJed. They go from being these heroes on your record. sleeves to these people that you actually know. But early on with Jay-Z, there was a club night that I used to do on a Tuesday that one night him and Biggie came down to. And it was such a big deal because Biggie was the king of New York at that time.

Starting point is 00:14:56 Jay-Z was sort of like the prince. Like he only had one or two records out, but they came down. And so I was at this other nightclub once on a Monday and I saw Jay-Z and I'd had a few drinks. And I was thinking to myself, you know, what a great time to just go up to Jay-Z and just say something really, really intelligent and insightful that's just going to make him so curious about me and we'll be best friends by the end of the night and he'll be saying, call me Jiggo, you know, and we're toasting Christel. But I was kind of tipsy. And as I was thinking of what to say, sometimes in a really packed club, there's almost like a current in the club.

Starting point is 00:15:38 and I remember just being like pushed right in front of him before I had really thought of anything to say. And I don't think I had anything intelligent to say anyway to him. Because the truth was, I just wanted him to think I was probably cool or something. And I said, I play all your songs, the absolute most inane thing I could have said, like, I'm the DJ Tuesday night, you come down and hear me play like anything. It was just like I could have literally been anyone could have said, Like, I have an iPod.

Starting point is 00:16:09 So, and then just as I really got to, you know, barely finish the line, you know, the club current, like, was like kind of pushes me away from him. And I can see out the corner of my eyes, I look back, like, he actually probably because I was drunk in the manner that I went up to him thought, like, maybe I was like a heckler or something or like some kid being a wise ass because I saw him like slightly tense up and say just friendly, like, what that kid's? say, you know? And, uh, and, uh, his friend's just like, I don't know, like probably a fan or something. And I think I just like, I wouldn't say I was like absolutely shattered because I knew like the way that I'd gone up to him, like what was I actually really expecting. But, um, there was this slight, like, embarrassed, um, thing as I, you know, made my way through the club. The mortification. Yeah, yeah, a light mortification. For some of reason everybody has like in a I get together with some of my friends um my friend

Starting point is 00:17:11 Ezra who's in this uh lead towing in this band vampire weekend like everybody's got a really good mortifying jZ story from somewhere early in their career yeah because i think everybody loves jasy so everybody at some point has like gone up to jzy and tried to say something and i'm sure like i wonder if jZ just keeps a tally of like all the people like you can just flip through a magazine be like that i don't know that that That person said some dumb shit. That person, that person made an ass out of themselves. Yeah, something about Jay-Z, the power that he wields.

Starting point is 00:17:45 Have you ever cross-passed with him since? Oh, yeah, very much. I mean, I've never reminded him of that story. Like, I don't think that he would even remember. And he figures importantly in the book because he was just such an important part of New York and how the scene transformed in the late 90s. And then, you know, he wrapped on a remix of rehab with, he was a huge Amy fan. He was at Amy's first ever show in New York at Joe's Pub.

Starting point is 00:18:17 I remember it was on Valentine's Day. That's just a weird fact that saves my mind. So, yeah, we've had a, I would say, a basic normal relationship since that. Well, he listens to this podcast regularly, so now he'll know this story. No, yeah. But when you see someone like that for the first time, you mentioned earlier seeing Beyonce and she just came hung out in the club. Can you tell that there is star quality there?

Starting point is 00:18:45 I think so. I mean, anybody on that level of Beyonce or Jay-Z, like certainly radiates something. Jay-Z was, I don't want to use the word remarkable or unique, but Jay-Z was just so memorable because I just remember seeing him cut through the club And he must have been like, he's a couple years old than me. I was 20. It was probably 24 DJ in the club. And it's just like a force.

Starting point is 00:19:10 I don't know what it is. And then there was such a sense of a, even at that age, I just remember he just had this like kind of poised. I don't want to use these cheesy words, like magnetism. It wasn't that. It was just like he was just serious. And yes. And kind of intimidating because everybody knew like, you know,

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Starting point is 00:21:58 And this anecdote, I feel, really illuminates quite a bit of that. Yeah. Where are you now on your journey with people pleasing? I think I've definitely mellowed out. There's still some old habits die hard. There's just there's something probably still in me that like some kind of validation or something or to people to think you're cool. But yeah, I've grown up a lot. I don't feel that happening too much anymore.

Starting point is 00:22:27 But I don't think it's because I've learned to hide it better. I've just like got better at playing it cool. I think that I probably have gotten better at needing people's, the validation of strangers. But that is a big part of DJing. You know, that's a big part of why I loved it. And in the 90s and late 90s in New York, we hung out with, for some reason, I hung out with DJs and stand-up comedians. We all like hung out together, I think, because it was same things, kind of late hours. You all get off work around the same time.

Starting point is 00:22:59 It's $150 in cash. And, you know, it was this era where Dave Chappelle and all these really talented comedians, you could just go into the comedy cellar, go see him on any night, and then walk over to the club. And I felt like there was a strong parallel between comedians and DJs even in the way that, like, they both use the word, kill, and we both play clubs and for crowds. And our entire thing revolves around the validation of strangers in a room. You're just going to room and people you've never seen

Starting point is 00:23:31 and you have to win them over. And you get immediate feedback as well. Yes. Whereas putting a podcast episode out or writing a book, it's not as immediate or present or in your face. Yeah, or making a record.

Starting point is 00:23:43 No, absolutely. And there's also something I write about briefly in the book. It's like, I'm sure it must be the same I imagine for stand-ups. Like you can have the best night, you can have 300 people, but if there's one person,

Starting point is 00:23:59 and that just is not having a good time or didn't dance, you just go home and you're haunted by that person's face until you fall asleep. I think it goes back to control again, doesn't? I mean, I speak as a fellow people, pleaser. Yeah. And I realized after a while that I was, I guess you're trying to control other people's responses to you

Starting point is 00:24:17 in order to feel safe. So that all connects as well. But I'm very interested in the idea of self-esteem. Do you think great creativity thrives if you have lower self-esteem or higher self-esteem. It's tough to, I know, drive and ambition. You can definitely connect to lower self-esteem, I'm sure, because you just constantly feel you have to prove yourself.

Starting point is 00:24:44 Creativity is interesting because I'm sure that they're well-adjusted people, and I don't know many, so I'm just saying I'm sure there are, but who are incredibly creative and, you know, through all the, hate to use all these things, but like the therapy and all the work and the things I've done, I certainly have less of those drivers that come from, you know, needing to prove myself, low self-esteem, whatever that is. But creativity, that's the one thing that I still see is this pure little beam in the middle of it all. So you have drivers, ambitions, and all the things that can drive you to do all the work and stay in the studio till 4 in the morning.

Starting point is 00:25:31 But creativity is like almost just like the newborn baby that's just pure. And I'm not sure if that's really affected by esteem or not. Beautively, but. Thanks. Can you talk to me about how you came up with Uptown Funk? Yeah. Uptown Funk came out of a jam with Bruno. And actually it kind of was like a definitely linked to a, there's a failure origin story.

Starting point is 00:25:57 So we had this song called Magic that had nothing to do with the song, Bruno went on to do 24-carat magic. And it was a song that was left over from Bruno's album, unorthodox jukebox that I had worked on. And I was convinced this was going to be like a huge hit. And it had this great hook and it had this cool beat. And I was working on my album. And I was like, Bruno, can we finish this song, Magic?

Starting point is 00:26:18 Can we just do it for my album? And he was like, yeah. And every time get in the studio, crank it loud and sit back from him and be like, man, isn't this great? And everybody was like, yeah. And then after like 20 minutes, just couldn't write a shred of lyric, nothing else on it other than this little hook.

Starting point is 00:26:36 Just wasn't moving anyone. And so we just decided to take a break for a second. And they're like, let's just jam on something else. Fuck it. And Bruno got behind the drums. And he had this really modest tiny studio at the time. And the drum kit was like basically in the fax machine closet. It was like a tiny cocktail kit,

Starting point is 00:26:55 which is just like three drums. I think he was like, almost like a child's kit. Bruno's playing, I'm playing bass, our friend Jeff Basker's playing keys, and we just jam for like five hours, and we just got the basic do-ch-ch-ch. It's like just a disco group that was fun. We didn't come up with a do-dood-to-much later,

Starting point is 00:27:15 but we wrote the whole first verse that night. And we were like, wow, this is exciting. So, but that's all we had. And then every time we got back together to try and finish the song, We could never match that, like, brand new excitement of the first night. If things started to feel forced and labored and didn't match that, like, this here, that white go, like this really initial excitement. So it took seven months.

Starting point is 00:27:42 Sometimes we'd get together for three days to write. And all we get was, like, maybe two lines, like the Jackson, Mississippi, you know, that part. And Bruno was on tour. And then by the end of three days, everybody would just had it with each other. were flaring with like frustrations kind of and and then I'd wait two weeks for everybody just to calm down and be like hey you guys want to get together try and finish that song um and and then after seven months we kind of got it to a place we're all happy with that's amazing so you always knew that there was something there that it was worth it was worth pushing through I did and honestly

Starting point is 00:28:19 I had the most at stake because it was for my album so like I kind of needed I was like I can't I can't afford to, like, ditch this song fully. Bruno was on tour, this giant arena tour. So I would just get on a plane with my bass, just go wherever he was, and we'd just keep chipping away at the song. What's your relationship with that song like now? It's just so beyond me, like, meaning it doesn't belong to me. It's such an interesting thing.

Starting point is 00:28:49 I mean, obviously, we're so excited when it came out. Because it didn't sound like anything on the radio at the time. all a bit of a risk. I remember someone at my record company saying, like, I don't know, do you want to put funk in the titles? Is there another title you could possibly call it? Because it's a little like, like there were just all these reasons. It was four minutes long. Everyone was like, can you make a radio edit? We tried all these things to make radio edits. It didn't work. So it was always like a bit of a roll of the dice. So then when it started to blow out, we were obviously over the moon. And then when it became a hit and then six months later, it was like,

Starting point is 00:29:23 all my friends with the young children. And it sort of made its way. It became a children's song. And then a wedding song. And it's just incredible. Like I, as, you know, I write in the book, like, even though it's a wedding song now, like I heard it's been banned, actually. Like some brides ban it from the wedding because they don't want the whole best man

Starting point is 00:29:45 choreo. But I made sure to say I'm as proud of it as anything I've ever done because it's not a slight to that sound bit really is just like it's part of the kind of ether almost now, you know. I remember when I first heard it and I remember it sounding so original but also so cool. And cool is something that you, Mark Ronson, strive to be. And from my perspective, I think you achieve it. But there's a very funny bit in your acknowledgement of the book where you say you did a word search for cool. One of your friends told you to do a word search and you've used it 73 times.

Starting point is 00:30:19 Yes. You've now used it 31 times. Do you feel cool? I mean, at this point, I know I'm all right. There's cool, there's like MIA and Travis Scott and like cool, scissors, cool in that way. Like, I'll never be. Like, I've made my peace with that. But I think like what's cool is like if you're around long enough and you make good music that people like sort of get somewhere in the end.

Starting point is 00:30:49 but I don't really care so much about being cool anymore. And then you reminded me in the acknowledgement. So, like, my wife's grace, her cousin, Abe, is a really beautiful writer and has written some incredible books and rights for the New Yorker and all this thing. So when I had finished the book and I thought it was done, I showed it to him. And he was like, there's a permanence to books.

Starting point is 00:31:16 And I was like, okay, how long do I need? He's like, I think you need three months. I asked my editor, and he was like, I can get you six weeks, which I then did stretch to three months. But I really went so deep back into the book and Abe. And then he put me with his features editor at the New Yorker. And they just, I went to school for 18 hours a day, rewriting the whole thing, putting it, you know, much more under, I don't know, just a deeper lens. And that was one of the things. He was like, you cannot use the word cool 73 times.

Starting point is 00:31:49 have to dig deeper in your lexicon than that. Your second failure is the shattering of your guitar dreams. Yeah. So growing up, you always wanted to be a lead guitarist, is that right? I did. You know, I played guitar. I listened to Led Zeppelin and Jimmy Hendrix and Living Color and all these kind of shreddy bands and then Guns and Roses.

Starting point is 00:32:11 And I wanted to be like that. And I was in this band with another guitar player who actually technically was ridiculously gifted and can play all those crazy solos and I was the rhythm guitar player but like I just that wasn't my thing and I was coming to terms of the fact that I just didn't have those chops and then my best friend who I write about in the book Sean Lennon we were always about the same level as musicians and he came back from a summer and I don't know he'd been studying it was just so far beyond me I just remember thinking like if that That's what being a guitarist sounds like.

Starting point is 00:32:50 I need to just find a new thing. And it just sort of happened at the same time I was really falling in love with hip hop music. And I didn't know anything about rapping or making beats. So I was like DJing. This is this one art form in this thing, this music that I love so much that I could maybe do. So it made me switch to DJing. But yeah, I had this like, you know, this kind of like ridiculous. fantasy of like being like slash with the top hat no shirt on stage shredding a les Paul

Starting point is 00:33:24 but it just that wasn't supposed to be me do you think being average certain things can lead to you being brilliant to others I absolutely think that for being being a producer which is what I went on to do it was really great that I had like rudimentary or maybe above rudimentary knowledge of all these different things, a little bit of guitar, bass, piano. But yes, because I never had a virtuosic talent that was like pointed the way like, this is what you go do. I had to find it and it took me much longer. But then by the time I found it, I had these little tools in my box because of all these other things I had tried. Talk to me a bit about friendship because you write so lovingly of Sean in the book. And you express that time when he,

Starting point is 00:34:17 moved away. I think you were 14 and you expressed it as heartbreak. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about that? Because I think friendship is so underplayed in our modern culture. Yeah. There was that recent meme that went around in America where I live of like guys calling each other up just before bedtime just to say goodnight but not telling anybody. It was like in this bro culture. It was suddenly like just calling up like, hey man, just thinking about you, just calling to say good night. Partly just to see what kind of weird reactions you might get, but yeah, maybe male friendship is still a thing that we don't, we don't feel quite as comfortable with beyond like, love you man. But yeah, with Sean, we were best friends. I had finally felt like I'd sort of found like a musical

Starting point is 00:35:08 kindred spirit and somebody, and Sean was just so wonderful and charming and magnetic. And he was my best friend, and I probably even looked up to him in some ways. And I remember him calling me one summer to say, like, hey, so I'm going to go off to boarding school in Europe with Max. The Max was our other really close friend. There were three of us. And he was like, but we'll, you know, we'll still have the summers to jam, right? Like, you know, he's trying to sort of like keep the, you know, sunny side for me. But I also knew they were about. out to go off and have the best time ever and I was just like, yeah, but I did. It was my first heartbreak in some ways because I, you know, those were, those were my best friends. That was sort of

Starting point is 00:35:54 my life at that time. But then by them moving away, I had to put my own band together and, you know, it led to other things. And how important is friendship still to you now? Because you also have a bevy of siblings and half siblings. I know you're all very close. So does friendship perform a different function? It doesn't. Because I've had children, you know, a bit later in life, like, it's so hard beyond the work and just the time that you want to spend with family, keeping those relationships. Like, I've felt some of my friendships, like, then not what they were. And that makes me a little bit sad, but there's just, like, there are not enough hours in the day. But I really value

Starting point is 00:36:41 friendship. I think I'm really lucky that also a lot of the people that I work with my songwriting partner, Andrew, like, I spend so many days in a tiny room, or just in a very close confines with people that I really love. And working with people on records, do you do have these sort of like very intense, quick friendships as well?

Starting point is 00:37:06 Because you're, you know, working with duo, somebody like, you know, you're absorbing everything that they're going through in their life and, you know, and when they happen to be really great, wonderful people as well, you you do become friends. But it's definitely something that I've really noticed lately. It sounds a bit like your job is also a therapist. Yeah. And you mentioned, although I know you feel uneasy talking about it, that you have been in therapy, yourself and I wonder if part of that is a bit like you needed a therapist almost like a supervisor

Starting point is 00:37:45 I think I always thought therapy was something loosely like oh you're in trouble you're having anxiety attacks or something like that's good to check in I didn't think of it was really something to like have consistently in my life and then after my first marriage ended I noticed that the series of relationships that I was in afterwards were actually getting worse and worse than even my marriage. I was like, man, how am I getting, like, I should be getting better after this. I really need, I want to say kick in the ass, but it sounds like I'm trying to make light of it, but I do, I need to figure this out.

Starting point is 00:38:30 So I did actually find somebody who was quite intense and put rules of basically, rules of conduct and whatever you're not going to date any one for six months you're going to sort yourself out. I went to this place called Hoffman as well. I don't think that having dealing with some of the emotional baggage of these incredibly wonderful, complicated artist was like getting heaved on to me, but I do think that you can definitely use it as a way to ignore skirt issues that you're dealing with in your own life because you can just take on other people's baggage or just use it as a way work was always something that I used to like blot out any kind of dealing with personal stuff as well.

Starting point is 00:39:18 Hard relate. Yeah. I'm also someone who was married, got divorced, made some dubious life choices and is addicted to work. If I have an addiction, it is that. Right. You mentioned earlier that you met your wife Grace during COVID. Yeah. How did that happen? I had met Grace on one or two other occasions and I always was just impressed by her and I had a crush on her but the timing was never right and so in September 2020 a mutual friend of ours just knew that we were both single at the same time and played matchmaker and it was always it was that really you know I can't remember exactly what it was like in London at the time or in England but in New York

Starting point is 00:40:07 It was definitely like, you were looking out for your family. If you were going on a date, you were somebody who was getting tested, you're asking them like, had they been around anybody in the past five days? But yes. So we met in that time. And then I think because I wasn't traveling like crazy and working like crazy, we had such a lovely, intense period of spending time. It's almost like we got to know each other in six months,

Starting point is 00:40:30 what might have been three years during any other time. And then we were married eight months. later. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. How do you feel about turning 50? I haven't really thought about it in the way that like, I mean, it's undeniably sounds like a big milestone, that's for sure. But there's no part of me that like wants to have like some crazy celebration or I did that on my 40th. I feel fine with it. It's just like I want to be somewhere with my grace and our two kids somewhere. I'm not, yeah. I guess my life is a bit different. I mean, I said before we started recording, your skin is excellent.

Starting point is 00:41:12 I mean, you could definitely pass for, I would say, like, 32. Maybe 39, 42. But thank you. Thanks. Do you have a special skincare regime? I do sometimes ask men this. I do not. I do not have a special regime. I have a little moisturiser. That's really it. Just blessed, genetically blessed. During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute.

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Starting point is 00:42:19 Plus, join Tim's Rewards today and get enough points for a free donut, drink, or timbits. With 800 points after registration, activation, and first purchase of a dollar or more. See the Tim's app for details at participating in Canada for a limited time. Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best? You are. I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're off mute. Hey, happens to the best of us. Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. Your final failure is your first solo album, tanking. Yes. And then you say you were sent into industry exile, which is a particularly strong term. But tell us this story. Yeah. So my first album came out

Starting point is 00:43:13 and here comes the fuzz. I don't think I had huge expectations for it anyway. I just, you know, I'd made my name as a DJ in New York. I just produced this album for this artist Nika Costa that was kind of like, you know, people were really into. And I just couldn't believe that some record company was giving me a blank checkbook to make songs with people that I love. like Jack White and Most Deaf and MOP and Q-Tip. So I made this record, and I hadn't really thought about whether it was going to be successful or not. But then when it came out and it really tanked, it was suddenly like, oh, God, like, yeah, nobody cares about this record. The thing that was the saving grace, really, was that I'd made the record in such this New York lens.

Starting point is 00:44:01 You know, I'm a DJ in New York. I want things to do well in New York. I want the people who I see every week to be like pumping my records. And what had happened that was a really unexpected term was that the record actually did much better in the UK. And Uwee was like, you know, kind of top 15 hit here. And it made me realize that, oh, even though I left England when I was seven, it's obvious that this growing up here has had some kind of influence on my music.

Starting point is 00:44:30 And it would make sense that why it's like embraced here. So I started to come back to London quite a lot to DJ and do gigs and then just really reconnected with this English part of me. But yeah, the album just really tanked and I think I got dropped by the label like maybe two weeks after the album came out. Like they weren't taking any chances. They were just like, all right, we're cutting you loose. And because I had to pay, I was booked on some late night show and I remember having to pay like on air miles. to get Ghostface Killer to come out to L.A. so he could, like, perform on the show.

Starting point is 00:45:09 So, yeah, it was really, like, that kind of thing and, like, in the movies where you call, and then suddenly the people that were talking to you a week ago and no longer taking your calls is exactly what happened. How did that make you feel? It was certainly a downer. I mean, I do think that at the time, luckily, the combination of low expectations

Starting point is 00:45:29 or low self-esteem or whatever it comes from, definitely... in some weird way help because I probably hadn't expected it to be huge anyway, but it was a sobering reality. And I went back to doing music for TV commercials and just like anything that I could, just because at that point, just to keep the lights on. But this one silver lining of the record doing well in the UK, or slightly better was that this A&R person from EMI named Guy Moot,

Starting point is 00:46:04 remembered it and he introduced me to Amy Winehouse. So when Amy was in New York, he was like, you know, I've got this girl, Amy Winehouse. And I was like, yeah, I remember Frank? I love that song in my bed. And he's like, she's in New York for a day. Do you want to meet her? And I was like, yeah, sure, send it up to my studio. And then we met that day and then literally wrote back to black that night the next day.

Starting point is 00:46:31 So there was this thing that even though this record that I had made, kind of for New York intending a New York audience completely bombed in New York had a little bit of a ripple in England but then led to me meeting Amy and then Lily Allen as well When you met Amy for the first time

Starting point is 00:46:49 and then that evening wrote back to Black would you describe it as a kind of falling in love? Yes, she came up to my studio like falling in love in a platonic sense It's like just like this person who like is just so funny and entertaining and it just has such an instant connection where she could be a sister or someone I knew growing up. Yeah, she just came up and we had this talk and I said, what do you want your record to sound like?

Starting point is 00:47:20 And she said, well, they play all this music down at my local and she played me all the 60s girl group stuff. And she left and I just wanted to make something because she was supposed to go back to London the next day. I was like, I just have to make something that's exciting enough to this girl that she's going to want to stay in New York for two more days or something to make music. And that night just like had the inspiration from her and came up with the piano for Back to Black, just really sparse demo. And she came in and heard it the next day and she was, she wrote the lyrics in about an hour or something. I'm so aware when I ask you about this of the legendary status of that

Starting point is 00:48:01 album also of Amy and that you get asked about it a lot and it must also be incredibly grief soaked for you and I wonder how that feels the combination I think when I think of us making the record there's no grief at all like I only just remember the spark of her and inspiration and just you know I think it's only when I start to think about later and you know what happened when she sort of fell back into addiction and those things that it starts to get obviously into those you know dark or sad grief so as you say things but it's all of those things it's tough sometimes I can hear I hear the music so much it could be in a restaurant or walking through an airport and hear Valerie and it's sort of like a sunny lovely feeling or sometimes it just goes past me and then hearing maybe back to black or something that's a little more, you know, desperate and heart-wrenching as some of those sometimes are hard to listen to. It must be so strange that you've orchestrated this soundtrack for so many

Starting point is 00:49:21 people that you catch snatches of as you go about your daily life and they take you right back to the place where they were created. Yeah. Sometimes I'd just be like at a new York next game, you know, my basketball team from New York and I'll just play uptown funk and I'm just there on like the eighth throne. I'm just watching everybody dance and nobody has any idea that I had anything to do with the song and it's like it's a nice feeling. Okay, indulge me before we have to draw this to a close on Barbie. I just want to know everything about writing that soundtrack because it's so brilliant but it's so fun and funny at the same time as not losing any artistic integrity. How do you go about something like that?

Starting point is 00:50:01 I think it's the same thing that, like, I read the script, the same thing we were talking about a little bit with meeting Amy. I read the script. It was so brilliant and so, like, heartfelt and moving and so clever. And I spoke to Greta, Gerwig. I met her on a Zoom. And I was just, like, I just remember, like, just having this ball, this wellspring of, like, inspiration.

Starting point is 00:50:28 And that we were originally only supposed to do. two songs. There was the dance number, what became Dance the Night. And she was like, and can you just write a Ken song? Like, just meaning like maybe in the credits, we'll have a song about Ken. And so I came up with the idea for I'm just Ken and wrote a demo with my partner, Andrew, and sent it. And she was like, I love this. I think I want Ryan to sing this. I played it for Ryan. He digs it. We're going to put it in the movie. And it was just such a crazy thing to go from like writing a demo and loving this script to being like, no, your song's actually going to be in there, like with our words, you know?

Starting point is 00:51:09 And then as it went from being two songs, like, let's maybe try some more songs. And then Billy, she knew Billy Eilish a little bit from, I think they'd cross past at something. And Billy was a big fan of Greta and said she wanted to write a song. And then in two or three weeks, Billy and Phineas sent us the demo of what was I made for. and then we were just floored by that. And then Greta asked us to do the score. So we started to weave, you know,

Starting point is 00:51:38 little bits of all these songs into the score. And it was just such a fun. It was sort of like if a year-long thing could be a whirlwind, like it just became my life. Like if there were Barbies and Kens all around the studio, it was just like, it was just fully immersed in it. So it was great. Final question, just because I've always wanted to ask you, do you dream in music?

Starting point is 00:52:03 Do your dreams have a soundtrack? It's very rare that I've woken up. I'm like, oh, my God, what's that melody? I've got to sing it into the phone. No. Actually, maybe my dreams are sadly devoid of music, because maybe that's like the only place I can go to that's just like free of music. I'm not sure. Now most of the music, what I listen to is what are two-year-old.

Starting point is 00:52:28 old daughter wants to listen to around the house too so it's like when you say listen to music like i'm just thinking either of like everything from she likes the wheels on the bus and things like that but then she loves joanie mitchell and then she loves chapel rhone and she loves like old dance hall like sister nancy it's it's kind of amazing watching what she gravitates to mark ronson it's been such a pleasure talking to on how to fail thank you thank you Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends.

Starting point is 00:53:08 This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Mark Ronson - The Stories Behind ‘Uptown Funk,’ Amy Winehouse & ‘I’m Just Ken’

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